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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: The Trump administration has been taking aim at higher education

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Speaker 2: for months now, but over the past few weeks it's

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Speaker 2: turned its tension to one university, in particular, Harvard.

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Speaker 3: They're taking five billion dollars and I'd rather see that

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Speaker 3: money go to trade schools. And by the way, they're

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Speaker 3: totally anti Semitic.

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Speaker 2: On Tuesday, the administration moved to cancel all remaining federal

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Speaker 2: contracts with Harvard that would effectively end the relationship it's

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Speaker 2: had with the university. This came a few days after

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Speaker 2: another attack on Harvard. The Trump administration took away the

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Speaker 2: school's ability to grant student visas, seeking to bar it

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Speaker 2: from enrolling international students.

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Speaker 1: What I'm going to do is dreams, hopes, and twenty

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Speaker 1: years of my life coming to Harvard.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not exaggerating. I planned for it for fifteen years.

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Speaker 4: When the news came out on Thursday, it was total

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Speaker 4: chaos for students.

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Speaker 2: That's Francesca magleone who covers higher education from Bloomberg.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot of confusion. Everyone had different questions.

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Speaker 4: They were calling immigration lawyers. I think the marching orders

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Speaker 4: were just trying not to panic and don't leave the country.

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Speaker 2: The following day, Harvard sued the Trump administration for infringing

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Speaker 2: on its First Amendment rights, and a judge put a

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Speaker 2: temporary hold on Trump's order. It's the latest in an

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Speaker 2: ongoing pressure campaign from the President on the United States's

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Speaker 2: oldest university. The US government has already frozen two point

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Speaker 2: six billion dollars in federal funding, accusing Harvard of allowing

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Speaker 2: anti semitism on campus. Harvard has also filed suits challenging

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Speaker 2: those cuts, and the Trump administration has threatened to do

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Speaker 2: away with Harvard's tax exempt status, no small thing for

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Speaker 2: an institution that has a fifty three billion dollar endowment.

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Speaker 3: This threatens the very financial survival of Harvard to have

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Speaker 3: all of these different levers turned off by the government.

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Boston bureau chief Brooks Sutherland says, the outcome of

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Speaker 2: this fight between the Trump administration and Harvard could have

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Speaker 2: ripple effects far beyond the bounds of the university.

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Speaker 3: And so I think, you know, that's partly why you're

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Speaker 3: seeing the university take such a strong stance in terms

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Speaker 3: of fighting back.

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Speaker 2: I'm David Gerret, and this is the big take from

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg News today on the show, what the Trump administration's

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Speaker 2: latest attacks on Harvard mean for the university and for

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Speaker 2: American higher education, and what could come next. Harvard is

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Speaker 2: the oldest and richest university in the US, but Bloomberg's

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Speaker 2: Boston bureau chief Brooks Sutherland told me that history, along

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Speaker 2: with its fifty three billion dollar endowment, doesn't insulate it

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Speaker 2: from the government's attacks. So let's talk about the latest

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Speaker 2: salvos from the Trump administration. Over the weekend, President Trump

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Speaker 2: posted on social media he's considering taking three billion dollars

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Speaker 2: off grant money away from Harvard, and he suggested he

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Speaker 2: would give that to trade schools. Walk us through what

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Speaker 2: that would mean for this institution to have that amount

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Speaker 2: of money disappear.

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Speaker 3: It would be really crippling. I think we should say too,

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Speaker 3: that it's not necessarily clear that he intends to follow

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Speaker 3: through on this plane of giving all that money to

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Speaker 3: trade schools, or what exactly that would look like. The

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Speaker 3: two point six billion that's been frozen is primarily for

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Speaker 3: research funding, and trade schools do not do research funding,

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Speaker 3: and so it's not necessarily practical to take that bucket

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Speaker 3: of money and put it toward trade schools, but certainly

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Speaker 3: I mean in terms of moving forward with research projects.

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Speaker 3: Not having this money is material to Harvard, and you know,

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Speaker 3: we've seen projects get caught in between things like als

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Speaker 3: research to berculosis research. Another professor was looking into ways

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Speaker 3: to sort of mitigate the effects of radiation, which would

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Speaker 3: be very important if we have any intention of getting

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Speaker 3: to Mars, which is something that is very important to

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Speaker 3: both Trump and his advisor Elon Musk. The school has

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Speaker 3: talked about putting two hundred and fifty million of its

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Speaker 3: own money towards sustaining some of these important research, but

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Speaker 3: the federal government plays a key role in supporting this

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Speaker 3: and has historically done so. And it's worth mentioning too

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Speaker 3: that it's not just Harvard. You know a number of

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Speaker 3: other universities have seen their research funding pulled back or

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Speaker 3: under pressure from the Trump administration, which you know, gets

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Speaker 3: into bigger questions about US competitiveness and the appeal of

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Speaker 3: being in America to do these research projects, particularly those

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Speaker 3: that are sort of on the cutting edge and maybe

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Speaker 3: higher risk, which typically thrive off of US government support.

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Speaker 2: On top of these funding cuts, the government has threatened

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Speaker 2: to revoke the tax exempt status that Harvard and other

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Speaker 2: schools with big endowments have traditionally benefited from.

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Speaker 3: People think of Harvard as this very wealthy institution, and

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Speaker 3: it is, But that fifty three billion dollar involntment is

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Speaker 3: not just this pile of money sitting somewhere that Harvard

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Speaker 3: can draw on, however it pleases. Much of it is

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Speaker 3: invested in longer term investments that they can't necessarily get

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Speaker 3: out of quickly. A lot of it is also earmarked

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Speaker 3: for specific purposes. They can't just, you know, sort of

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Speaker 3: pick and s choose where they put that money and

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Speaker 3: use it to plug funding gaps, which is actually why

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Speaker 3: you've seen President Alan Garber of Harvard appealing directly to

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Speaker 3: alumni to donate to a different kind of fund. They're

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Speaker 3: calling it the Presidential Priorities Fund, and the idea would

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Speaker 3: be that the money that goes into that fund, the

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Speaker 3: president's office would have more jurisdiction over using that funding

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Speaker 3: to sort of plug gaps as they come up. But

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Speaker 3: that's a very different kind of vehicle than Harvard has

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Speaker 3: traditionally used.

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Speaker 2: And Bloomberg reporter Francesca Maglione says, if the government is

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Speaker 2: successful in barring international students. That would also hurt the

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Speaker 2: university's finances.

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Speaker 4: Most international students pay full tuition because they don't qualify

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Speaker 4: for federal aid, so this is a significant blow both

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Speaker 4: to their finances and to their enrollment as well.

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Speaker 2: Last week, the Secretary of Homeland Security, Christy Nome, sent

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Speaker 2: a letter to Harvard telling the university it won't be

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Speaker 2: allowed to enroll international students in the twenty twenty five

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six academic year, and that any international students

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Speaker 2: currently enrolled would lose their legal status if they don't

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Speaker 2: transfer to other schools.

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Speaker 4: This is significant. At Harvard, almost thirty percent of the

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Speaker 4: student population is international, and Harvard isn't even one of

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Speaker 4: the schools that has the most. At Columbia, that number

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Speaker 4: is closer to forty percent. This is a big part

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Speaker 4: of US education. A number of international students has been

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Speaker 4: growing steadily throughout the years.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, the Trump administration has broadened its focus. Yesterday,

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Speaker 2: Secretary of State Marco Rubio ordered US embassies worldwide to

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Speaker 2: stop scheduling interviews for student visas, effective immediately. As for

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Speaker 2: Harvard's international students, a hearing on Thursday could determine how

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Speaker 2: long a judge's pause on Trump's initial order would hold,

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Speaker 2: is it possible for you to kind of say in

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Speaker 2: broad strokes what those thousands of students are thinking at

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Speaker 2: this point, what they're prioritizing, is they kind of wait

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Speaker 2: for all of this to play out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for these students, going to Harvard was their dream.

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Speaker 4: They worked really hard. It's not easy to get into Harvard,

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Speaker 4: and so I talked to students that talked about how

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Speaker 4: their family back home so proud of them, how they were,

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Speaker 4: you know, everybody was rooting for them. And then to

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Speaker 4: get that news on a random Thursday that you might

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Speaker 4: not be able to finish your degree that you worked

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Speaker 4: so hard on, paid so much money for, was devastating

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Speaker 4: to these students. I talked to students that said they

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Speaker 4: spent the day crying. I talked to students that had

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Speaker 4: families that now had to reevaluate where they were going

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Speaker 4: to live next year, what their life was going to

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Speaker 4: look like next year. This is a significant impact.

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Speaker 2: Well, Harvard and the US government wait for court decisions.

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Speaker 2: The rest of the world is preparing for the fallout.

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Speaker 2: How universities in other countries are preparing to fill a

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Speaker 2: potential gap in higher education and more on how Harvard

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Speaker 2: is fighting back after the break. The Trump administration says

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Speaker 2: its actions against Harvard are intended to hold the university

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Speaker 2: accountable for allegedly allowing anti semitism on campus. Vord sees

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Speaker 2: this differently. Here's Bloomberg's Boston bureau chief Brooks Sutherland. Again.

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Speaker 3: What Harvard has said and its lawsuits pushing back is

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Speaker 3: that this is not really about anti semitism and is

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Speaker 3: more about the government trying to assert more control over

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Speaker 3: Harvard and the ways in which it manages its academic process, staffing, students'

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Speaker 3: rules on campus. That they say that it is a

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Speaker 3: case of government overstep infringement on their constitutional rights.

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Speaker 2: This is another difficult chapter for the university. In December

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, its thirtieth president, Claudine Gay, testified in

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Speaker 2: front of Congress about Harvard's response to campus protests over

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Speaker 2: Israel's war in Gaza.

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Speaker 3: Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules

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Speaker 3: of bullying and harassment? Yes?

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Speaker 4: Or no?

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Speaker 3: It can be depending on the context.

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Speaker 2: I will ask you what. A few weeks later, under

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Speaker 2: mounting pressure, Gay step down from the job. So Alan

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Speaker 2: Garbery is now the president of the institution. What has

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Speaker 2: he said and done in the fame of those allegations

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Speaker 2: that Harvard hasn't done enough to combat anti semitism on campus.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because, you know, he's very much acknowledged that

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Speaker 3: there are problems that the university would like to correct

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Speaker 3: on campus, and you know, some things that happened that

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Speaker 3: they need to address, and they're trying to take ownership

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Speaker 3: of that. They try to be very transparent, you know,

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Speaker 3: in terms of what has been happening at campus. They've

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Speaker 3: tried to commit to, you know, really stepping up to

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Speaker 3: making it the kind of place where everybody feels comfortable

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Speaker 3: to be. And so it's interesting because it's sort of

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Speaker 3: a twofold dynamic. On the one hand, they're suing to

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Speaker 3: prevent these actions by the Trump administration and really fighting back,

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Speaker 3: but they're also saying, we agree with you to some

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Speaker 3: extent that changes need to be made on campus, and

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Speaker 3: Harvard would say they are making those changes.

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Speaker 2: Garber was interviewed on NPR on Tuesday, and he said

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Speaker 2: he interpreted the administration's actions as a warning to other schools.

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Speaker 1: And that is how it's understood by the other leaders

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Speaker 1: of other universities that I've spoken to, it is a warning.

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Speaker 1: They see this as a message that if you don't

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Speaker 1: comply with what we're demanding, these will be the consequences.

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Speaker 2: Brook What can we take away from the way that

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Speaker 2: Harvard is responding to these threats from the administration.

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Speaker 3: I think it sends a message around, you know, trying

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Speaker 3: to hold the line on those values that you know

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Speaker 3: this country considers most dear Harvard isn't impervious to the

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Speaker 3: federal government's threats, but it also is in a better

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Speaker 3: position to fight back than some of these smaller schools,

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Speaker 3: and so, you know, I think there's something to that that,

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Speaker 3: you know, if Harvard isn't going to push back on

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Speaker 3: these kinds of demands from the Trump administration, it makes

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Speaker 3: it much harder for smaller schools or those with a

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Speaker 3: smaller endowment to push back. And so I do think

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Speaker 3: that Harvard is setting somewhat of an example here for

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Speaker 3: other schools.

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Speaker 2: Harvard spokesperson said in a statement that the university is

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Speaker 2: quote fully committed to maintaining Harvard's ability to host our

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Speaker 2: international student and scholars who hail from more than one

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty countries and enrich the university and this

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Speaker 2: nation immeasurably. In its latest lawsuit, the school said without

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Speaker 2: its international students, Harvard is not Harvard. I asked Bloomberg's

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Speaker 2: Francesca magleone about that. Could we talk a bit about

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Speaker 2: the worst case here? I think as Harvard would see it,

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Speaker 2: as other institutions would see it, certainly students would see it.

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Speaker 2: That is, they can't enroll. What does that mean, more broadly,

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Speaker 2: for American higher education to have a system that no

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Speaker 2: longer welcomes foreign students, international students into US universities and colleges.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that would be devastating. American higher education is the

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Speaker 4: envy of the world. You know, if you're not in

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Speaker 4: the US, you want to come study in the US.

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Speaker 4: I think they enroll the largest number of international students.

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Speaker 4: And also this comes out a time where these students

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Speaker 4: can't choose to transfer to another institutions. Most of them

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Speaker 4: have either confirmed that they're going to a certain school

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Speaker 4: or denied their acceptances to other schools, so they don't

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Speaker 4: really have many easy options as to what to do next.

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Speaker 4: It would take schools collaborating, schools opening up applications again

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Speaker 4: for them to be able to study somewhere else next year.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about undergrads, graduate students, those who are already

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Speaker 2: enrolled and active in the university. What about for prospective students?

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Speaker 2: What are they thinking?

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Speaker 4: Even before this news, I had talked to several college

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Speaker 4: counselors that had mentioned that for their international students they

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Speaker 4: were advising them to have a plan B in case

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Speaker 4: anything like this happened.

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Speaker 2: What are you seeing from countries and universities and other

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Speaker 2: countries in terms of their response to this. Has there

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Speaker 2: been an effect here where they're noting this and maybe

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Speaker 2: opening their doors in a way that they hadn't been before.

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Speaker 4: Some universities in Hong Kong have been saying that they

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Speaker 4: would be accepting more students. This is an opportunity for

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Speaker 4: other countries that have been competing with the US in

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Speaker 4: terms of enrolling international students to attract more students that

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Speaker 4: would have otherwise gone to Harvard or these other schools.

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Speaker 2: This is a story about Harvard, of course, and its future,

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Speaker 2: but Harvard's impact is bigger and its reach is much wider.

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg's brook Sutherland says the university plays a vital role

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Speaker 2: in its home state's economy. In its backyard and all

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Speaker 2: over the world.

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Speaker 3: These students don't just go to Harvard. They also you know,

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Speaker 3: are in Boston. They contribute to the economy. They spend

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Speaker 3: money on restaurants, they go out and they do activities,

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Speaker 3: what have you. Many of them also stay to work

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Speaker 3: at these businesses that are attracted to the talent pool

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Speaker 3: that comes out of Harvard, MIT and some of the

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Speaker 3: other top tier universities here or they you know, stay

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Speaker 3: and they work on research grants you know, through Harvard

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Speaker 3: or the hospitals or whatever it might be, which you

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Speaker 3: know are under threat now from the federal government as well.

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Speaker 3: The real asset for Boston and Massachusetts in general has

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Speaker 3: always been beds and meds, meaning educational and medical institutions.

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Speaker 3: And you know, this general thinking was that that was

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Speaker 3: sort of an impervious backbone to the economy, and that

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Speaker 3: is looking riskier and riskier. If you think about Harvard

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Speaker 3: as an employer, it is a massive job generator in

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Speaker 3: the state, but then it's also attracts those students. It

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Speaker 3: creates a talent pool that makes businesses want to be

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Speaker 3: here and invest in Massachusetts. And that's all now under.

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Speaker 2: Threat, under threat as Harvard prepares to hold its three

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy fourth commencements on Thursday. Students, faculty, and

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Speaker 2: administrators are acutely aware that next years could look very different.

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Speaker 2: This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gurratt.

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Speaker 2: To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access

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Speaker 2: to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow