1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Joey. Welcome

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 1: back to the show. It has been too long, okay, Bridge,

5
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 1: So welcome to There No Girls on the Internet, where

6
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: we explore the intersection of identity, tech, social media, and

7
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,240
Speaker 1: the Internet. This is yet another installment of our weekly

8
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,120
Speaker 1: roundup of news from the Internet y'all might have missed.

9
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 1: And before we get too into it, I should just

10
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,519
Speaker 1: say currently I am recording from beautiful Mazak Lawn, Mexico,

11
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,440
Speaker 1: to be in the path of totality for the eclipse

12
00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,319
Speaker 1: on April eighth. The place I'm staying in is right

13
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 1: on the beach, which is beautiful and fantastic, but right

14
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,839
Speaker 1: outside my window there is like fully a full band

15
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 1: kind of roaming around playing for people on the beach.

16
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: They're literally right outside of my window as we speak,

17
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,120
Speaker 1: and so it is a fat good time. I am

18
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: the only schmuck out here trying to like record a

19
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: podcast in the middle of it. So if you guys, so,

20
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 1: if y'all hear a little music or merriment in the background,

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: that is what's going.

22
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,760
Speaker 2: On sounds truly so awful and difficult for you right now.

23
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 1: It's the worst. So I have a weird question for

24
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: you. You are a little bit younger than me, so this

25
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 1: might be something that completely your generation missed out on.

26
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,039
Speaker 1: Did your family ever have like a code word so

27
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 1: that if somebody like a friend of the family had

28
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,319
Speaker 1: to pick you up when you were young, you would

29
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,199
Speaker 1: know like, oh, mom or whoever has given this person

30
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,040
Speaker 1: permission to be picking me up from the mall or whatever?

31
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 3: Is this?

32
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 1: Is this a phenomenon that you are familiar with at all?

33
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:43,960
Speaker 3: Yes, I am familiar with it.

34
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: I definitely think I was kind of at the end

35
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,440
Speaker 2: of that phenomenon because I remember, like my mom bringing

36
00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,520
Speaker 2: it up in conversation. I don't think we ever actually

37
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 2: came up with the word like. I think it was

38
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 2: just a thing that we were like, we should do this,

39
00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 2: that would be that would be safe to do.

40
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 1: So I was re about how more and more of

41
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: these AI enabled scams, where the scam is using AI technology,

42
00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 1: somebody is spoofing the voice or in some recent cases,

43
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: the actual video image of a very convincing version of

44
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,799
Speaker 1: like your loved one and that person says they are

45
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 1: in trouble, they've been kidnapped, they need money, and then

46
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,119
Speaker 1: the scam is you, you know, get a call from

47
00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,919
Speaker 1: what you think is your loved one, your family member,

48
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 1: your sister, your daughter, whatever, and you're so distraught that

49
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,919
Speaker 1: you send these strangers crypto. Meanwhile, your daughter or whatever

50
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,959
Speaker 1: is like perfectly safe. I have been reading about how

51
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: these scams are getting more and more sophisticated, and I

52
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 1: think it's time we bring back the family code word.

53
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: So just like when you were young and your mom

54
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,680
Speaker 1: would tell somebody like, oh, say blah blah blah, and

55
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 1: that's going to be the phrase that indicates that this

56
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 1: person is safe and is actually authorized by your mom,

57
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 1: we might need to start having family and loved one

58
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 1: code words so that if you get that call in

59
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,119
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, you can say, what's our

60
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,280
Speaker 1: AI code word so I can make sure this is

61
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 1: actually you.

62
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, no, I agree that stuff's freaky.

63
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 2: I I know my mom also still like has all

64
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 2: of us on the like find my phone thing, like

65
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 2: on your Oh.

66
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 3: Honestly, I know there's a.

67
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,640
Speaker 2: Lot of downsides of usually against the kind of constant surveillance,

68
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,800
Speaker 2: but Uh, you know, it's also nice.

69
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: To be honest, right, I mean, Mark, if your mom

70
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,720
Speaker 1: gets a Panis call from Joey in the middle of

71
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: the night, they can be like, oh, they're not kidnapped,

72
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 1: They're in Brooklyn, where they always are, where they ought me.

73
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: I am a big fan of the code phrase and

74
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 1: the code word in general. I have a secret code

75
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,840
Speaker 1: word for if.

76
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:52,160
Speaker 3: So.

77
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: One of my like very closely held values is that

78
00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 1: when you ever get a feeling that's like I'm I

79
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,840
Speaker 1: want to leave wherever I am for whatever reason, you

80
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: should just leave, like, no questions asked. And everybody who

81
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 1: is in my little IRL friend circle knows this about me.

82
00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: And so I actually have a code word or a

83
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 1: code phrase that if I say that, it means like

84
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 1: it's time to GTFO immediately. I'm a big fan of

85
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: the of the of the pre agreed upon code phrase

86
00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 1: or code word. I like that too.

87
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think especially I don't know, definitely had that

88
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 2: situation where U surely I'm just like.

89
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 4: Ah, so do think you guys want to leave suon

90
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 4: like I'm gonna go through.

91
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: All that, there's nothing worse and really wanting to leave

92
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 1: a situation that you're in but not being able to

93
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 1: speak freely about that want and so you just have

94
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,080
Speaker 1: to sort of be like yeah, well and like do

95
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of voice inflections and hope the other person

96
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,160
Speaker 1: picks up on it. Okay, so let's get into this.

97
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about this, but it was a

98
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: little close to home, and so I kind of like

99
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 1: waited because I'm sort of like processing my feelings. So

100
00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,559
Speaker 1: last week, the Francis Scott Bridge and Baltimore collapsed after

101
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,799
Speaker 1: a container ship collided with it. It was a huge tragedy.

102
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 1: I live in DC, which is a little under an

103
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,960
Speaker 1: hour from Baltimore, so really big news here on the

104
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 1: mid Atlantic region. Sadly, a group of six immigrant workers

105
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 1: from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras fell to their

106
00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 1: deaths in this tragedy. There was a really thoughtful piece

107
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 1: in CNN this week about how their deaths really should

108
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 1: be sparking a conversation about the need for more protection,

109
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,039
Speaker 1: specifically for foreign born construction workers, which we'll link to

110
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 1: in the show notes. I think it's really a must

111
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 1: read all about how just how little protections and support

112
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,200
Speaker 1: our country offers these people who do so much for us,

113
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 1: and so definitely read that piece that was really eye

114
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 1: opening to me. But I say this to say I

115
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 1: am really disgusted to see how this tragedy has become

116
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 1: just yet another thing to spread racist conspiracy theories about.

117
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've said this one hundred times on the

118
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,559
Speaker 1: show now, but as awful as it was, Twitter before

119
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 1: Elon Musk wasn't like all rainbows and sunshine. I don't

120
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 1: want to make it seem like that, but it was

121
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: a place where you could reasonably get updates in real

122
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 1: time on breaking news or disasters or emergencies like this one.

123
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,680
Speaker 1: So living in the area, I can tell you that,

124
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,400
Speaker 1: like Twitter was simply not a place that you could

125
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,720
Speaker 1: go to to figure out what was going on in

126
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 1: real time during an emergency. And I guess I was

127
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,680
Speaker 1: just really feeling the loss of that platform as a

128
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: way to really stay informed about things that are happening

129
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 1: in your community, in your neighborhood, in your neck of

130
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 1: the woods.

131
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

132
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 2: I feel like with this story, the first kind of

133
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 2: stories that I was hearing about it coming out were

134
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 2: more like, oh, there are these conspiracy theories around this

135
00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,719
Speaker 2: terrible thing that happened, and not just like, oh my god,

136
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 2: this terrible thing happened. Like just the rate of which

137
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 2: the conspiracy theories like became a part of the news.

138
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 3: Cycle was very fast and very concerning.

139
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean it pains me that conspiracy theories are

140
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 1: the main thing that people are talking about, Not labor protections,

141
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: not that people who lost their lives, not how we

142
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: can prevent that from happening again, not you know what's

143
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 1: going to happen to that bridge, like the impacts, And

144
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: it just goes to show how conspiracy theories just take

145
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 1: the oxygen out of the room. They completely shift the conversation.

146
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: So the high number of things we absolutely should be

147
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,520
Speaker 1: talking about, we're not talking about that because we're too

148
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: busy debunking all of this nonsense that people who have

149
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 1: huge platforms are spreading. So instead of Twitter being this

150
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,960
Speaker 1: place where you can figure out what's going on in

151
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,200
Speaker 1: real time, you have instead people with verified, big platforms

152
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: spreading lies and hate. During an active life or death emergency,

153
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 1: you had suspected sex trafficker Andrew Tate saying that it

154
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 1: was a cyber attack. Alex Owns conspiracy theorists replying to

155
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate saying, oh, yeah, it looks deliberate to me,

156
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 1: despite there being no indication that that is the case.

157
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 1: And can you guess what Utah State Rep. Phil Lyman

158
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,960
Speaker 1: blamed this tragedy.

159
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 2: On I'm sure he had a very sane and normal

160
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 2: answer that was totally totally on track with what what

161
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:23,240
Speaker 2: actually happened.

162
00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was talking about the need for more robust

163
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: infrastructure in this country. Oh wait, no, sorry, I have

164
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 1: that wrong. He blamed DEI. Of course black people. He

165
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 1: took to Twitter to say, this is what happens when

166
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,240
Speaker 1: you have governors who prioritize diversity over the well being

167
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: and security of citizens. So this has sort of become

168
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 1: the new party line that DEI or Diversity, Equity and

169
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: Inclusion can do anything. It somehow caused this bridge to collapse.

170
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 1: I saw a thread that included seemingly just like pictures

171
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 1: of black people and black women that they said, we're

172
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 1: like loosely associated with the Port of Baltimore as the

173
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 1: sort of smoking gun that DEI was to blame because look,

174
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: here are some pictures of the headshots of black people

175
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 1: who I am saying, I am making a spacious link

176
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: to the Port of Baltimore or go They are to

177
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 1: blame for this, for this tragedy, and it also just

178
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 1: really angers me to see how this has shifted onto

179
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,040
Speaker 1: Baltimore's mayor, Brandon Scott, who is like a young black man.

180
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 1: This very popular extremist Twitter account clipped a video of

181
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,240
Speaker 1: that mayor speaking out a presser with this caption, This

182
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: is Baltimore's DEI mayor commenting on the collapse to Francis

183
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,320
Speaker 1: Scott keep Bridge, how can someone be a DEI mayor?

184
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 1: Like again, it's like, I feel like I am.

185
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,600
Speaker 2: Voting if not diversity equitian inclusion bridget you know.

186
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,520
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It is like do this. People

187
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,719
Speaker 1: know how someone becomes a mayor. You are elected as

188
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 1: the mayor, not appointed. You can't, like DEI your way

189
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 1: into being mayor. Never mind the fact that this mayor

190
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,680
Speaker 1: of Baltimore, he was like he won by a landslide.

191
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 1: I think it was like seventy percent of the vote.

192
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,080
Speaker 1: And also Baltimore is like sixty two percent black. The

193
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,680
Speaker 1: residents of Baltimore are like mostly black. So like this

194
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,079
Speaker 1: idea that somehow it's d I. I just I mean,

195
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 1: it's so obvious. What they really mean is like they're

196
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 1: saying dei, but they mean it. What they're really saying

197
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 1: is like, it's a black mayor. Look at this black

198
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: mayor messing everything up. So yeah, it's fairly obvious that

199
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,400
Speaker 1: they what they mean when they say dei mayor is

200
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 1: a black mayor, and they probably really mean a slur,

201
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,480
Speaker 1: but they can't come right out and say that, so

202
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,679
Speaker 1: they're just saying dei instead because they can't say what

203
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 1: they actually want to say, which I think is fairly obvious.

204
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,200
Speaker 1: But I will say it is not all bad because

205
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 1: in true black folks on the internet fashion, we have

206
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: reclaimed this and made a joke out of it. Like,

207
00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,839
Speaker 1: if they are going to be using dei as a

208
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,320
Speaker 1: pretty obvious stand in for the racist slur they wish

209
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 1: they could openly call us, we may as well have

210
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of fun with it. Right on Twitter,

211
00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,080
Speaker 1: user Petty Lapone put it wonderfully, saying black people have

212
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: already reclaimed the word dei. That's why I love us,

213
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: and this is why they hate us because all jokes

214
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 1: aside resilience is our inheritance, stay pressed bigots. And so

215
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 1: now you have black folks on Twitter really using the

216
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,960
Speaker 1: word dei the way that these bigots and extremists are

217
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: pretty obviously using it themselves. You have pour a little

218
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: out for the deies who ain't here, or de eyes

219
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 1: in Paris. D e hyghes with attitude. And this is

220
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 1: honestly why I love us, because we will always find

221
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,280
Speaker 1: a way to repackage someone else's nonsense and use it

222
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 1: against them. I love this, And not that long ago,

223
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,680
Speaker 1: I was actually on a flight where we had an

224
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,200
Speaker 1: all black flight crew. Like the captain was black. The

225
00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,679
Speaker 1: other captain I guess there's two, was also black. All

226
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 1: the light attendants were black. And the captain got on

227
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,839
Speaker 1: the announcements before the flight and like introduced himself. He

228
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 1: gave deck a very long introduction. He was like, I

229
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,319
Speaker 1: used to be in the Air Force. I'm from Texas.

230
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,200
Speaker 1: I love Texas. And then before our flight took off,

231
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 1: I kid you not, he came out of the cockpit

232
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 1: and shook the hand of every single person who was

233
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,240
Speaker 1: like ready to take this flight, and introduced himself. And

234
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 1: part of me was like, this has to have been

235
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: a response to all of the nonsense that people like

236
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:37,320
Speaker 1: Elon Musk are supewing about how black pilots or women

237
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: pilots they only got there because of DEI or affirmative action.

238
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,080
Speaker 1: And if you get on a plane and see a

239
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 1: black pilot, you better pray or whatever your God is,

240
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,560
Speaker 1: that you're gonna make it because it's not looking good.

241
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,719
Speaker 1: And had it just really struck me how hard it

242
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: is to just try to do your job when all

243
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,720
Speaker 1: of this is out there in the climate. How hard

244
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: it would be to be like up pilot who is

245
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,920
Speaker 1: a black person, up against this cultural stereotype that you

246
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,480
Speaker 1: cannot you cannot do your job well because of your identity,

247
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,480
Speaker 1: And how how fucked up it is that this pilot

248
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,680
Speaker 1: would have to go so above and beyond to project

249
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: this this this competence and to like introduce himself and

250
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 1: to be like, I'm a black man, I am I've

251
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 1: got this, I have a background, I was in the

252
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 1: Air Force, whatever whatever, to demonstrate that he knows what

253
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 1: he's doing. Because of the bigotry and extremism of people

254
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 1: like Elon Musk. I was just you know, watching that

255
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 1: pressor from the mayor of Baltimore having to deal with

256
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: these people misconstrue his words simply because of his identity

257
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,839
Speaker 1: while he is actively dealing with a life or death

258
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 1: crisis in his community. It just really drove home what

259
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,760
Speaker 1: an unfair, messed up dynamic this is. But this is

260
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 1: what they want. I think this is like the trip

261
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 1: of racism. You know, if it reminds me of this

262
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 1: Tony Morrison quot. The function, the very serious function of racism,

263
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 1: is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It

264
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: keeps you explaining over and over again your reason for being.

265
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 1: Somebody says you have no language, and you spend twenty

266
00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,960
Speaker 1: years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn't

267
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,440
Speaker 1: shaped properly, so you have scientists working on the fact

268
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,679
Speaker 1: that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so

269
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdom,

270
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 1: so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary.

271
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: There will always be one more thing, and that is thought, Gee,

272
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 1: what if this mayor, who was already dealing with something

273
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 1: pretty heavy and pretty complicated, could just focus on that

274
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 1: and not have to respond to extremists and racists and

275
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 1: bigots and grifters who are accusing him of it's not

276
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 1: even clear what other than being a black person and

277
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 1: distracting him from this very important work that he needs

278
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: to be doing work that happens to be life or death.

279
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, it's the acronyms or the problem.

280
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 2: I think we need to stop calling things like acronyms.

281
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 3: Like first it was like CRT.

282
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,040
Speaker 1: Yes, we need we need long, boring names that do

283
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: not easily lend themselves to act to like snappy acronyms

284
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 1: that scare people. That's what we need to any kind

285
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: of initiative, This is my new plan, any kind of

286
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 1: initiative that we push going forward. We needs to have

287
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 1: a long, boring, complicated name but does not easily lend

288
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: itself to a snappy acronym.

289
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: Exactly.

290
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:38,800
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back. Okay, so

291
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,840
Speaker 1: we have to talk about this Amazon update because I

292
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 1: feel like ever since Mike and I did kind of

293
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 1: a contentious episode on self checkout, which I still feel

294
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 1: very strongly about, Mike and I have kind of dropped

295
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,160
Speaker 1: it and come to a I guess a somewhat respectful

296
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: mutual on that debate. Ockets we'll call it that. But

297
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 1: I feel like ever since we talked about that, Yeah,

298
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 1: I still think I'm right, he still thinks he's right.

299
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: We've just decided to table it for now, although maybe

300
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,560
Speaker 1: this is a good reminder I should kick that one

301
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 1: back up again. So Ever, since our somewhat contentious episode

302
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: on self checkout in retail stores, I feel like we've

303
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 1: kind of become the Shopping Technology Update podcast, which I'm

304
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,880
Speaker 1: actually okay with because you know what, it's one of

305
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 1: those things where it's a way that everybody comes in

306
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: contact with technology. I feel like retail experiences demonstrate that,

307
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,440
Speaker 1: like technology really matters, and technology decisions and policies really

308
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 1: shape your everyday experiences. And we have another update for y'all.

309
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 1: So you might have heard about Amazon retail grocery stores

310
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: using technology that basically allows shoppers to just walk out

311
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 1: of the store with their purchases as a kind of

312
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 1: frictionless checkout as opposed to waiting in line. Well, now

313
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: Amazon is phasing that out, though they say that it

314
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: will stick around in some UK markets and in some

315
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 1: smaller like Bodega stores, in favor of what they are

316
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 1: calling dash cart, which is sort of like a self

317
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 1: checkout device installed on the shopping cart. So, Joey, have

318
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 1: you ever used just walk out shopping tech? Or maybe

319
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: add an Amazon Fresh or a Whole Food which we

320
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: know Amazon owns whole foods.

321
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 3: I have not.

322
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:26,320
Speaker 2: I'm already somebody that you know is anxious about whether

323
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 2: it looks like I'm stealing things or whatever in grocery

324
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 2: stores to begin with.

325
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 3: So I am not somebody who does that.

326
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: Yes, we got so many emails from listeners saying the

327
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 1: exact same thing that, like, because of some part of

328
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,400
Speaker 1: their identity or some perceived part of their identity, they

329
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: always are like, I know I'm gonna get stopped. I

330
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 1: know somebody's gonna think like, I never do that because

331
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 1: I know I don't want to have that interaction because

332
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 1: of whatever thing somebody's looking at me and thinking, oh,

333
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,400
Speaker 1: this person stealing, which.

334
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,959
Speaker 3: For the record, like I'm very white.

335
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,320
Speaker 2: I just have bad anxiety which makes me think that

336
00:17:58,520 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 2: I'm about to get in trouble.

337
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 3: Like all the time.

338
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,959
Speaker 2: I am on the anti self checkout side of the debate,

339
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 2: I will say.

340
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: Welcome to the right side of history.

341
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 3: Joey, thank you, thank you.

342
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 1: Also look at us two little anxious ansies. Thanks too,

343
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 1: little anxie. Because I'm the same way I feel. I

344
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 1: will just be sitting there and be like someone somewhere

345
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 1: is upset with me. I've done something wrong. To somebody.

346
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what, but I just have this

347
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 1: feeling like something is a miss. I'll just sit with

348
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 1: this feeling forever and just quietly vibrate with anxiety here

349
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 1: for no real reason.

350
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 2: I so like a tweetersothing recently about like oh yeah,

351
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 2: I just like constantly think that, like I accidentally killed

352
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: someone and just forgot about it.

353
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 1: Yes, I was like, yeah, I am the same.

354
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,159
Speaker 3: I feel like there's a lot of us in like

355
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 3: the podcasting world.

356
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: Oh, it's why you're a podcaster probably, yeah.

357
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

358
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: So Amazon is phasing out these fricks checkout lines, which

359
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 1: people like me and Joey would never even use in

360
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 1: the first place. If you've never used those friction lists,

361
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,719
Speaker 1: just walk out check out lines. This is how Amazon

362
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: says they worked. Customers entered Fresh stores using Amazon One

363
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 1: Palm recognition, the app, or a credit card. Amazon said

364
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,880
Speaker 1: that sensors, cameras, and deep learning tools caught whatever items

365
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 1: customers took off the shelf automatically charging them. So you

366
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,880
Speaker 1: could just go into the store, pick up a bunch

367
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 1: of stuff, walk out, and then you'll just be charged

368
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,120
Speaker 1: automatically on your credit card. So I remember, I don't

369
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: make it either. I just I wouldn't. I just would

370
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: never feel comfortable doing that.

371
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,159
Speaker 3: So why are they okay?

372
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 2: And again, listeners, I am somebody who like I don't

373
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 2: even use like the facial recognition on my phone to

374
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: like open my phone, Like.

375
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 3: I just don't. I'm like, that's too many things watching me.

376
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: I don't.

377
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 3: This is gonna end badly for you.

378
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of too many things watching you. So I

379
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,679
Speaker 1: remember when Amazon first unveiled this technology and they were

380
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 1: talking about it like it was this cutting age space

381
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 1: age AI technol. Come to find out, it's just humans

382
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 1: watching humans shop, just like in a regular grocery store,

383
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: only the humans have been moved off site and they

384
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: just like watch you while you shop and charge you

385
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,719
Speaker 1: for whatever you pick up and leave with. So as

386
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 1: much as Amazon wanted to pretend like this was like

387
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 1: space age deep learning tech, it's just humans, just like

388
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,160
Speaker 1: a regular store. According to a new report from the Information,

389
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 1: about seven hundred of every one thousand just walk out

390
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 1: sales had to be reviewed by Amazon's team in India

391
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. Internally, Amazon wanted just fifty out

392
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 1: of one thousand sales to get a many will check.

393
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: So Amazon is kind of like vaguely disputing this. It's

394
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 1: like they still want this technology that they have obviously

395
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 1: realized is a flop to be considered like cutting edge

396
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 1: and effective even as they back away from its use.

397
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,239
Speaker 1: They're being a little bit cagy that the role that

398
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 1: human workers in India played in their just walkout system.

399
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: The information says very clearly that it was about one

400
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: thousand workers in e India who were watching people shop.

401
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 1: But Amazon is disputing that kind of vaguely, basically saying

402
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: that the human workers were part of it, but they

403
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 1: were just sort of supporting the technology to do the

404
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: work of checking people out. I don't really believe what

405
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 1: Amazon is saying. An Amazon spokesperson confirmed that it uses

406
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 1: human moderators, but declined to say how many people it

407
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: employs in these roles according to the information. And I

408
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: guess I say all of this to say that it does,

409
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: to me show how these technologies and these use cases

410
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 1: for things like AI and deep learning and all of that,

411
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: a lot of it is just ends up being smoke

412
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: in mirrors that rely on humans, potentially humans who are

413
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: like probably not very well paid at that to solve

414
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 1: a problem that was never really a problem to begin with, right,

415
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: Like it is like exploitation dressed up as tech innovation

416
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: to me.

417
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 2: Right, It's just this is like the latest symptom of

418
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 2: us just living in this weird tech dystopia where rather

419
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 2: than using knowledge you to make things easier for us,

420
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: we're just gonna Like I feel like the you know,

421
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 2: the powers that be that figure out these kind of whatever,

422
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 2: Like the people in the corporate systems that make the

423
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: decisions to have these things happen, they like are so

424
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: obsessed with this like aesthetic of having us in this

425
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: like Star Trek future where everything is so automated and

426
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: like whatever, but like nobody wants to think about what

427
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: the root of those things are supposed to be, which

428
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: is just like helping us make our lives easier, and

429
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: instead we get this and wow, I don't know it

430
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: is so it's it's crazy how so many AI related

431
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: stories lately.

432
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 3: Too.

433
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 2: I feel like the kind of the twist at the

434
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: end is like, oh, it's still human beings having to

435
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: do most of the work or the labor or whatever.

436
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 3: It's you know, I hope this is the end of

437
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: self checkout.

438
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: Wait.

439
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: This is the other thing though, too, because like the

440
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: whole thing with worker.

441
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 2: Even if you're going at like a grocery store doing

442
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: self checkout, Like if you get anything with alcoholic, you

443
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: need to like have somebody come over and like make

444
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: sure you're able to buy that. There's certain things that

445
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 2: like I always end up having some issue where they're like, no,

446
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 2: you accidentally pick something up and put it back down,

447
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: and now we're counting it as two different things because

448
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: it's weighed different the second time, Like like these.

449
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 3: Things don't work to begin with.

450
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's my thing is that I want

451
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 1: to get to a place where when we are being

452
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: sold some sort of AI technology or tool that we're

453
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: being told is going to make our lives easier, are

454
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: more convenient, or happier, that we really do a little

455
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: more work at looking behind the curtain of how we

456
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: are being told that is going to work. And I'm

457
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: a peo willing to bet that somewhere down the line

458
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: are exploited humans. You know, we get so many AI

459
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: related pitches for people to come on the podcast and

460
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: talk about their like AI innovation, and so many of

461
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: them I'm like, I don't know about this, Like some

462
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 1: of them are so scammy and so yeah, I just

463
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: I want us to stop eating this up when Amazon

464
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: says they're going to be unveiling some cool futuristic AI thing,

465
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: really being willing to look under the hood and really

466
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: see how cool or how convenient or how good this

467
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: thing is actually going to be, and not just like

468
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: letting them sell it to us the way that they

469
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: think it should be sold.

470
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely would recommend I think, like looking at

471
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: AI and like how AI is being used right now

472
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: as a labor issue, and looking at how human labor

473
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: plays into the whole kind of system of whatever technology

474
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 2: you know we're talking about at a given time. I

475
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: think that kind of really like changes like changes the

476
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: game and changes how you see the like effectiveness of

477
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: this kind of technology, because again, this is just another

478
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: case of like it's not really saving time or money

479
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: or energy or anything. It's just you know, adding more

480
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: surveillance measures and then needing the same work exactly.

481
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: And it's funny that you say this because actually, just

482
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: today a bunch of artists, like two hundred high profile musicians,

483
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: including Billy Eilish if you wonder, Nicki Minaj, all signed

484
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: this letter basically saying exactly that this letter issued by

485
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: the Artist Rights Alliance and Advocacy group, which makes the

486
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: demand that technology companies pledge to not develop AI tools

487
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: that replace human songwriters and artists. And so I think,

488
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: like you're exactly right. When you think about this as

489
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: a labor issue or an exploitation issue, it becomes really

490
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: clear tech companies and tech billionaires shouldn't be able to

491
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: get richer from the exploitation of humans and have us

492
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: all applaud it and call it visionary speaking of tech

493
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: being used to make all of our lives just a

494
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: little bit more miserable. Have you ever had this experience

495
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: where you're I mean, I guess we work together, so

496
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: maybe you don't want to say maybe the email is

497
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: coming from me, and you're like, oh, I don't want

498
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: to say that Bridget actually is the person who sends

499
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: me these annoying emails. But you know that feeling when

500
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: you are trying to relax is after hours and you

501
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: get like a slack or a work email in the

502
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: evening and you feel like pressure to reply even though

503
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: it's eight pm, nine pm, ten pm.

504
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: Exactly when it's will nine pm out a Thursday night.

505
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: What are you trying to say? Joey for listeners, we

506
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: are recording at almost nine pm Joey's time.

507
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I am not in Mexico. I don't have to

508
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 3: deal with the Maria again behind me. You know.

509
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: Fortunately I got to sit quiet in my Brooklyn apartment.

510
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: But meno, yes, I do know this, this feeling never

511
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: for you, of course, but you know, okay, I will

512
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: say I've had to deal with this a couple of

513
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: times in my in my professional career.

514
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: Like if we're saying never from me, even though I

515
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: suspect that's not one hundred percent true, Well maybe we

516
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: should live to California, because California is following places like

517
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: Spain and France by introducing AB twenty seven to fifty one,

518
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: which is being called the right to Disconnect proposition. Basically,

519
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: it's in very early stages, but if it were pasted,

520
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: it would require every California employer to lay out exactly

521
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: what a person's hours are and make sure that they

522
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: are not required to respond to work related communications outside

523
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: of those hours while they're off the clock. So time

524
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: periods in which a salaried employee might have to work

525
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: longer hours would need to be explicitly laid out in

526
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: their contract. There are exceptions for like actual work emergencies.

527
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: So in case you're wondering how this would all be enforced, well,

528
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: this is from n. Gadget, who writes the Department of

529
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: Labor would monitor adherents and find companies a minimum of

530
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars for wrongdoing, whether that's forcing employees to

531
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: be on zoom their inbox, answering texts, or monitoring slacks

532
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: when they are not getting paid to do so. I

533
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: do think it's fitting that California, which has created many

534
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: of these technologies, it's also the state that introduces how

535
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: we make it sustainable and update our protections for the

536
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: times we live in and the world that we've created.

537
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: That is from California State Assemblyman Matt Haley, who introduced

538
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: this legislation. So, as somebody who has been in that

539
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: the same position sometimes or you have somebody who will

540
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: not stop messaging you outside of work hours and just

541
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 1: expects you to be online all the time, often unpaid,

542
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I actually like this. What do you think of a legislation?

543
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: No, I agree, I think this is really great. I

544
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: think especially you know in.

545
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: Our current world where like a lot.

546
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: Of people myself included, and like YouTube bridge it like

547
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: we all kind of work remotely, so sometimes hours aren't

548
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 2: as set and sown and there aren't like you know,

549
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: people have been talking about this since the kind of

550
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: beginning of the pandemic, but like the sort of blurring

551
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: the lines between our work life and our home life

552
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: has also led to kind of a blurring of like

553
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: what is your work time, what is your time that

554
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be doing your job, what is your

555
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: just like kind of normal everyday life.

556
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, I definitely.

557
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: Think this is super great and good on California for

558
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: doing this. Hope it kind of spreads across they're the

559
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: rest of the of the country. I mean, I think

560
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: I personally, I am very invested in this issue in particular, and.

561
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: I think it's super important.

562
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: I'm you know, here at iHeart, I'm a part of

563
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: our podcast Producers Union, and you know, one of the

564
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: issues we were working on is making sure that.

565
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: We have some sort of like limitations, you.

566
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: Know, boundaries in place so that people are working within

567
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, the normal workday hours and there's compensation and

568
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: people are expected to work outside that because that does

569
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: of course happen in the podcast industry and a lot

570
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: of other industries, particularly in media production. But yeah, I

571
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: mean a theme of this episodes of bar has been,

572
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, making sure that people are compensated and respected

573
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: for their own you know, the.

574
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: Labor that they're providing.

575
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: And I think this is another example of like just

576
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: making sure that as kind of the nature of work changes,

577
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 2: those expectations are also like changing with that.

578
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: Yes a hundred times. Yes, absolutely. There's a really good

579
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: episode of the podcast You're Wrong About with an Helen Peter.

580
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: The episode is called how Email took Over the World.

581
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: And I should say, like I don't, I mean, this

582
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: is a peek into my own psyche, but like I

583
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: have a really hard time with professional communication, Like I

584
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: hate email. My inbox is like very difficult for me

585
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: to keep up with. It's something that is that brings

586
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: me like quite a bit of anxiety. And I could

587
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: spend an hour not even replying to an email, just

588
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: like stressing about it for no reason. Like if I

589
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: allowed myself, I would spend hours and hours and hours

590
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: a day just like thinking about my email inbox. And

591
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: so that episode of You're Wrong About really was the

592
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: first time that I realized, like, oh, work didn't always

593
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: used to be like this. There were actually very deliberate

594
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: changes made in technology, particularly around technology like Gmail, that

595
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: led us all to be like, oh, well, you need

596
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: to be answering your email as soon as it comes in,

597
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: no matter what time it is, Like, there was a

598
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: time where that was not that case. If you're an

599
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: older listener who was in the workforce before all of

600
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: these tech tools were ubiquitous, you probably enjoyed a very

601
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: different early work life than somebody like from my generation,

602
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: who you know pretty much always had that expectation. And

603
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: it was the first time that I was like, wait,

604
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: maybe this is not actually how we are supposed to work.

605
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Maybe the idea that I need to stop everything no

606
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: matter what I'm doing, whether I'm on the clock or off,

607
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: and respond to somebody's email or slack or ping that

608
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: I didn't ask for. Frankly, maybe that actually isn't the

609
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: best way to get work done. So I definitely recommend

610
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: that episode, and I think I think this is good.

611
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: I think this legislation really does get us closer to

612
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: the realities of what work looks like in twenty twenty four,

613
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: and the labor protections and carve outs that need to

614
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: be considered for working people in twenty twenty four. I

615
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: will say one thing about this legislation that concerns me

616
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: is that they say they have a carve out for emergencies.

617
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: I have worked a lot of different places, and I

618
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: can tell you that a lot of different people have

619
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: different understandings of what is or it's not an emergency.

620
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: And so I think that cannot be left up to

621
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: workplaces or employers, because I have definitely workplaces where you know,

622
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: you've got that one person who like, oh, everything is

623
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: an emergency, and I'm like, maybe we work in marketing, Like,

624
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: what are you talking about. I'm an air traffic controller,

625
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: I'm a podcaster. What is this emergency?

626
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: Like?

627
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: How how big of an emergency could it be?

628
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: Exactly like, nobody's gonna die the episode comes out an

629
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: hour later.

630
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 3: Yes, because I hope not.

631
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: I'm truly sorry if anybody's life has been severely affected

632
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 2: by the fact that it took me a little bit

633
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: longer to edit than.

634
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: You don't know what's writing on this. You know are

635
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: on the line.

636
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: More.

637
00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. Okay,

638
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: so this is really interesting. Are you on twitch at all?

639
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: I'm not on twitch.

640
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: Now, for listeners who use the live streaming platform Twitch,

641
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: you might have noticed Twitch getting a little bit, for

642
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: lack of a better word, pornier. Now. A new study

643
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: published in the Journal of Humanities and Social Science Communications

644
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: kind of confirms that researchers analyzed two thousand live streams

645
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: and found a pretty concerning trend that women are more

646
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: frequently and intensely self sexualizing than men live streamers on Twitch,

647
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: hinting on a broader pattern that they call pornification in

648
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: digital content to lure audiences. The authors of the study

649
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: told psych Post Quote this topic intrigued us due to

650
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: the growing popularity of live streaming platforms like Twitch tv

651
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: and the public concern regarding the sexualized culture that may

652
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: arise in these environments. We wanted to explore how this

653
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: culture specifically manifest based on the gender of the streamers.

654
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Our study aimed to shed light on the nature and

655
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: extent of sexualized culture in deeply masculinized environments such as

656
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: live stoating platforms. We examined how some streamers resort to

657
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: the quantification of their content to attract audiences and the

658
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: potential implications for the perception and behavior of users, especially

659
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: teenagers who have yet to internalize their beliefs about sexuality.

660
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: So basically, these researchers evaluated live streams based on accommodation

661
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: of factors including clothing, exposed body parts, the focus of

662
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: the image, posture, and behaviors that imply sexualization. It sounds

663
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: like their results were pretty clear. The results showed a

664
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: clear gender disparity in self sexualization. While the platform boasted

665
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: a number of male streamers overall, female streamers were found

666
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: to engage in self sexualization to a much greater extent

667
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: and intensity. Only two male streamers out of the entire

668
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: sample were categorized as hyper sexual compared to three hundred

669
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: and eighty nine female streamers. Similarly, only five male streamers

670
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: out of the entire sample were categorized as sexual compared

671
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: to one hundred and ninety female streamers. So what does

672
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: this look like? How is it manifesting for these streamers?

673
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: While the researchers found that women's streamers were more likely

674
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: to wear revealing clothing, focus the camera on their entire

675
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: bodies as opposed to just their face, exhibit behaviors or

676
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: postures considered seductive or sexually explicit, and in their findings

677
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: they underscore a notable difference in content presentation, with female

678
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: streamers leveraging their physical appearance and sexuality to attract viewership.

679
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: In contrast, male streamers typically focus their streams on gaming,

680
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 1: proless or conversations or other non sexualized content, seldom employing

681
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: their physical appearance as the primary means of engagement quote,

682
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: while men focus their content on talking or playing video games.

683
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: It was found that the majority of streamers who used

684
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: less clothing, stimulated sexual acts, or displayed suggestive poses were women.

685
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: So I don't spend a ton of time on Twitch.

686
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: I'm there a little bit, but not a lot. But

687
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: it is something that I guess I would say that

688
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: I've noticed a bit, and I don't want to be

689
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: clear that I think that everybody should be able to

690
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: decide and be in control of how they show up

691
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: online and off. I also think that it's worth noting

692
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: that I think that historically different kinds of traditionally marginalized

693
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: people have been sort of labeled sexualized or hyper sexual

694
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: just by showing up, whether they're doing something sexual or not.

695
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: Like I've heard on Instagram, a lot of people who

696
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: have bigger bodies are consistently having their content moderated as

697
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: being sexually explicit, even if it's just like them in

698
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: a swimsuit, them existing, right, there's something about their body

699
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: where Instagram moderation has decided like, oh, this is hyper

700
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: sexual or this is sexually explicit. That said, I think

701
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: we have to be honest that we're in a digital

702
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: climate where you know, things are really engagement based, right,

703
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: and so like getting eyeballs, getting clicks, getting more subscribers,

704
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: getting more listeners, getting more viewers, whatever, that can be

705
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: the difference between succeeding or not and financially succeeding or not. Right,

706
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: And so it makes me wonder if it is really

707
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: possible for women to be deciding for themselves in a

708
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: meaningful way how they want to show up on these platforms, right, Like,

709
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: if the main way to compete if you are a

710
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: woman on Twitch is self sexualization, how much agency can

711
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: these women's streamers really be exercising in that dynamic?

712
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree, I think also, And like I said,

713
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 2: like I personally, like I'm not on Twitch a lot,

714
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: I have some friends that use it more.

715
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: I'm just not a big video game person.

716
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: But like I have seen on TikTok, and Instagram and

717
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: like a lot of these other social media apps where

718
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,479
Speaker 2: the same sort of thing is happening, particularly TikTok since

719
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: it's such a visual app, and there are these also

720
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: like streaming, Uh, like the lives are kind of the

721
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: essentially like lives are essentially the same as like streaming.

722
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: Like I feel like I'm seeing that happen on there too,

723
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: and I'm seeing more of this conversation about I don't know.

724
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: Something that I see that I think always sort of

725
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: concerns me is sometimes there's certain trends or you know,

726
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 2: things that come across as kind of suggestive or like

727
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: openly explicit, and I'll see like teenagers doing those trends,

728
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: and it's rough because and on one hand, yeah, I

729
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: do think like people should be allowed to show up

730
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: online how they want to. And I think that a

731
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: lot of cases, like a lot of these people don't

732
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: even necessarily realize like what if there's like an implication

733
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: or like yeah, or or the really thinking through the

734
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 2: whole like this is gonna.

735
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: Be online now, Like I don't know, I've put.

736
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: Stuff online that I've later regretted because I've had like, oh,

737
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: maybe that was it?

738
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:41,959
Speaker 1: Like whatever I don't know.

739
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's it's definitely.

740
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: I think there is this pressure on particularly young women

741
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 2: to yeah, to.

742
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: Come across a certain way, to do things that.

743
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: Are like a little bit more like yeah, like in

744
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 2: that kind of porn of a gation category. And I

745
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 2: wish there was a way to have a conversation about

746
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: that without demonizing the people who are doing it, and

747
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 2: also like acknowledging that maybe it's not great for us,

748
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: like as a whole, and not great for like the

749
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: people doing it for the people like that are being

750
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: pressured to act a certain way or dress a certain

751
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: way or whatever online all the time.

752
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: You really nailed how complex this issue is. You know.

753
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: Your your comments about TikTok remind me a couple of

754
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: months ago about the conversation around women, adult women on

755
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: TikTok who were making non player content. Oh my god,

756
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: I remember that.

757
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: Yes, that was like through all of these lives.

758
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: And again I think like some of the people, a

759
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: lot of people doing this were like adult women.

760
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 3: Some people, I think, just because of.

761
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: The nature of TikTok, like a lot of teenagers end

762
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: up getting a lot of followings on them.

763
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,959
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's like people that I'm like, I don't know if.

764
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: You should be doing that, Like I think you're going to,

765
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like it'll be younger people that'll come

766
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: out and make certain NPC comment con tent or whatever

767
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: or whatever sort of like trend.

768
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: It's hidden under it that a.

769
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: Lot of times also just happen to be related to

770
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 2: like porn stuff or like weird.

771
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: Fetish as always, it is the.

772
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: You know, the the catch twenty two of being like

773
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: a woman or somebody who's seen as a woman on

774
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: the internet is like anything you do is going to

775
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: be seen as pornographics. Who is the other kind of

776
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: side of it, where like, you know, I feel like

777
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: you always like I'm always finding out about like oh,

778
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: actually this trend was a fetish thing or this whatever,

779
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 2: This was a fetish thing whatever, And it's like it's

780
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: it's impossible to exist online. But yeah, but at the

781
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: same time, there is definitely a pressure to kind of

782
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: fall into this this portification, the sexualization or whatever.

783
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So for folks who don't know what the

784
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: NPC non player character stuff is, basically you had these people,

785
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 1: mostly adults, acting like the non player characters in video games,

786
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: and so they would be doing these repetitive most and

787
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: saying these repetitive things like there's one woman who would

788
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: say like, oh oh ice cream, yum yum, things like that.

789
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: People I think rightly realize like, oh, this is like

790
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: fetish content, it's like sexual content. The people who are

791
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: engaging in this were adults. But as you said, when

792
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: you are sharing an internet landscape with children, when you

793
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: have children and young people and adults all in one

794
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: mixed bag of Internet landscape community, you have adults who

795
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: are consensually engaging in what is kind of fetish content,

796
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: you know, consensually, you have that becoming a trend. You

797
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: have young people who might not realize the implications of

798
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: what they're doing or might not even recognize it as

799
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: sexualized or fetish content, because a lot of that fetish

800
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 1: content on social media is like if I didn't if

801
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: I didn't really know, I maybe wouldn't know it's fetish content.

802
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: And then you have young people sometimes unwittingly engaging in

803
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: what is fetish content on social media because of the

804
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: adults who were doing it consensually. And that's not a

805
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: good dynamic either, And so it is it is very complicated.

806
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: But I agree we need to start by asking the

807
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: question about how we're all sharing an Internet together in

808
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: a way that is not going to be harmful, in

809
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: a way that is not going to lead to people,

810
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: particularly young people, feeling pressured into sexualizing themselves online because

811
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: like that's what they have been told, is like what

812
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: they should be doing. And you know, it is really

813
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: tough though. Like I was happy in conversation about this

814
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: with another podcaster about just how different it is being

815
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: on video versus being a podcaster being mostly audio, Like

816
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: it's a totally different beast. I hate being on video.

817
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: I hate video content because showing up like visually is

818
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: so different for me. You know, I'm really comfortable being

819
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: a disembodied voice in somebody's head or somebody's ears, But

820
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: when I'm on video, I just find myself thinking, like,

821
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: am I pretty Do I look like I'm trying too hard?

822
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: Am I not trying hard enough? Like I find it

823
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: really distracting. I've also found that pretty much like no

824
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 1: matter what you do, how you show up, somebody's gonna

825
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: find fault with it, or just like do whatever you want,

826
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: because like, either way someone's gonna have a problem with that.

827
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: So who cares?

828
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, quick call out to whoever on TikTok left to

829
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: comment on one of my videos one time saying that

830
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: my voice was annoying.

831
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 3: I think about that all the time, because again.

832
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: I tell you have a wonderful voice.

833
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 3: I talk for a thank you, bridget thank you.

834
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: I've had enough people tell me that I have a

835
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: nice voice, so I you know, but you know what, whoever,

836
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: But I totally get that. I think, like especially, I

837
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 2: am somebody who uses TikTok a lot and uses like

838
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: social uh visual social media platforms a lot, and honestly,

839
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 2: it is something I think about a lot, and I

840
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: think especially as somebody who like exists in the weird

841
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: gender gray area of a lot of people see my

842
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: videos without context and like assume I'm a woman. I

843
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: still have that kind of attachment with that identity in

844
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: some way.

845
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 3: This is disclaimer I have to say.

846
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: Every time I talk about gender, I'm talking about how

847
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: I see my own gender.

848
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: Obviously this is not the same for like every trans person, but.

849
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: I am constantly thinking about my appearance and how I'm

850
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: seen and I'm not I know that, like certain things

851
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: that I'll talk about, people aren't gonna take it as seriously.

852
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: If I don't look very well put together or like

853
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: conventionally attractive. I think, especially because somebody who's like not

854
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: traditionally feminine that I especially know that.

855
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, it's it's it is stressful, I think.

856
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: Like again, like I I I love TikTok, I love

857
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 2: making social media like video content, like that's just kind

858
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: of a thing that I do as like hobby. But

859
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: also like I've had to take breaks before just because

860
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: like the stress of it has like like I've talked

861
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: to my therapists about this, like where it's like I think,

862
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: just showing up online and realizing how many eyes are

863
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 2: on you and sometimes seeing just the like the number

864
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: of people that have seen a certain video or seen

865
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: a post or whatever, and realizing like like you're a

866
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 2: public facing person without really being a public figure or whatever,

867
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: and that could be really really stressful.

868
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 3: Because yeah, I.

869
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: Mean we all, like everybody deals with body image issues

870
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: and whatever, and like I'm no different.

871
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that you're so right that basically,

872
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: if you are someone other than a cisgender man, people

873
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: on the internet feel very comfortable policing how you look,

874
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: policing your voice, policing really everything about your physical presentation

875
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: and it is exhausting, like you just wanted to make

876
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: a stupid TikTok video and here you are thinking like, oh,

877
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: is my voice this way? Is my hair this way?

878
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: And was my makeup this way? Like it just is

879
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: a lot, and like it's a lot to deal with

880
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: just to want to have a platform or build a

881
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: platform or put your thoughts out into the world, you know, definitely,

882
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: So it sounds like Twitch might actually be trying to

883
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: do something to combat thisification that these researchers found, because

884
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: in late March, Twitch actually released a new rule banning

885
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: quote content that focuses on intimate body parts for a

886
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: prolonged period of time. Verge reported that this move is,

887
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: without a doubt, a targeted response to a new Twitch

888
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: trend wherein streamers project gameplay onto green screened parts of

889
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: their body, specifically their like breasts or their booty. So

890
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: I checked out one of these streams and literally like

891
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: it'll be a video game green screen projected onto a

892
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: close up of somebody's booty cheeks. Verge reports that this

893
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: specific trend was popularized by Morgpie, a creator known for

894
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: pushing the boundaries of Twitch's streaming policies. She has pretty

895
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: wild stuff, like she wore a green screen cutout shirt,

896
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: making her head and her chests the only part of

897
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: her body that a viewer could see. This behavior would

898
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: now be a bannable offense. I don't know. Maybe this

899
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: is me being immature, but I actually kind of loved

900
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: this content, Like it feels like it felt like camp

901
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: to me, which I liked, and part of me is like,

902
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: if twitch is already full of corny dudes who only

903
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: want to like objectify you and look at your body,

904
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: you may as well own it and have it be

905
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: like funny and kind of cheeky. You know.

906
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that I that sounds really funny. Actually see

907
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 4: this is and then that's that's the like double and

908
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 4: short of all this is like I don't know, I

909
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: don't feel like the solution should be let's police people's bodies.

910
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 3: Further, like this doesn't really seem to I don't know.

911
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what the right answer is here, though, but.

912
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is kind of funny. I feel

913
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: like there should be like a joke there about you know,

914
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: the whole meme about like gen Z can't watch like

915
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: TV shows. There has to be like people will make

916
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 2: fun of the like tiktoks, where like half the screen

917
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: is a video game and then it's somebody and that

918
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: is a clip from a TV show, and there are

919
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: people will be like, oh, like I'm having like we're

920
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 2: we're breaking up, but we're gen z and they'll like

921
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 2: be holding up a phone that's playing a video game

922
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 2: and then.

923
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: Be talking over it.

924
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: I took a very long time to explain TikTok trend,

925
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: but I feel like there's some joke there about the.

926
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: Totally. I love those videos, you know, I'm I'm with you,

927
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 1: like I don't want to shame anybody. And also more

928
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: Pie's video content seems hilarious to me. So if you

929
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: are an adult and you want to be self sexualizing yourself,

930
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: even if you want to be doing that because you're

931
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: gonna get more money or more streams or more clicks

932
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: or more engagement, I say more power to you. Like,

933
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: I am not someone who thinks that just because somebody

934
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: is deciding to self sexualize online, that person can't also

935
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: have interesting or smart things to say, not at all.

936
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: I just don't want there to be a dynamic where

937
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: self sexualization is the only way to get people to

938
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: pay attention to what you're saying, especially given how young

939
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: pitch as user bases. In twenty twenty two, almost half

940
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: forty one percent of pitches users were aged sixteen to

941
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: twenty four, so it is like a very young user base.

942
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: So like you, I do think this is an important

943
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: conversation and like a complicated one, but I think that

944
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: we got to get to a place where we're having

945
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: converse about what true body autonomy looks like online outside

946
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: of this like outside pressure to generate engagement, what that

947
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: truly looks like in space is.

948
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 3: Like Twitch definitely.

949
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: So before we end, I did want to give a

950
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,479
Speaker 1: little Andrew Huberman update. We did a full, a two

951
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: part deep dive into doctor Andrew Huberman, podcaster neuroscientist. I

952
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: won't say disgraced neuroscientists, but like slightly besmirched neuroscientist. I

953
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: guess I will say thanks to everybody who listened and

954
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: wrote in. I don't know why this continues to be

955
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: something I am fixated on. Honestly, we did two parts,

956
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: two episodes on Huberman. I can honestly do three more.

957
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: I will not subject you listeners to that unless you're

958
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: someone who's listening who wants to talk more about it,

959
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: in which case let me know. Email me. I have

960
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: a ton more to say. But in case you were wondering,

961
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: Huberman has not really said anything about that bombshell New

962
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: York magpiece. However, I did notice that he has continued

963
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: to post his content as normal. I guess dude is

964
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: going to be posting through it. I understand, I get it. However,

965
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: I did notice that he's been sneaking alike on comments

966
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: on Instagram that say some version of like just ignore

967
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: the haters. Who cares what they say? So he's lurking.

968
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: He's out there. We've seen it. Andrew, we know you're

969
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: in the comments, lurking, getting your little social media dopamine

970
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: via Instagram comments.

971
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, been there, man?

972
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: I who among us?

973
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: So we ask for folks who listened to Huberman's podcast

974
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: or were fans of him in some iteration to write

975
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: in and let us know what they thought, and we

976
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: got some very interesting responses. I think this email really

977
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: summed up nicely the experience of sort of being taken

978
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: by Huberman's work at first and sort of getting value

979
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: out of it, and then maybe realizing like, maybe this

980
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: isn't on theF and Up. This listener writes, I got

981
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: into Huberman after he was a guest on a skateboarding

982
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: podcast in twenty twenty one. I really identified with having

983
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: a similar background, getting into trouble as a kid, having

984
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: a rough family life at home, getting into skating, and

985
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: eventually finding healthy positive outlets. Hughes was my guy, right.

986
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 1: I got a lot out of the Deep Dive episodes

987
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,959
Speaker 1: about ADHD, sleep and alcohol. It played a large part

988
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: in cutting back excessive drinking. I redeveloped mid pandemic, but

989
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't shake the ick feeling I got as the

990
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: supplement ads became more prevalent, bleeding into the conversations with

991
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: his guest. Here we is talking for three hours about

992
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: peer reviewed research and experts and blah blah blah blah blah,

993
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: but its number one sponsor is a supplement company he

994
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: consults for. While I do take some supplements, I know

995
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: full well they're on unregulated industry and whatever the label says,

996
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: it's only a suggestion. So that was a whack red flag.

997
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: I was also noticing he didn't have many women on

998
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 1: US guests. Weird since the image he pushes is educating

999
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: people on holistic health while nearly ignoring half of the population.

1000
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: My skepticism spiked when I saw he was on Joe

1001
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: Rogan and then peeked when I saw he was on

1002
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson. I thought hees was my guy, but it

1003
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: turns out he was just another Manisphere grifter d bag

1004
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: who's just climbing the grift ladder. I really bought into

1005
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: this whole, not like other boys vibe at first. It's

1006
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: satisfying as f to see my suspicions confirmed. Fuck these

1007
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: grifters forever all the same, always have been. And to

1008
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 1: this person, thank you for writing this email. I feel

1009
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: like this listener really said what I was trying to

1010
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: say in two very long winded podcast episodes in like

1011
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: a paragraph.

1012
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, definitely and totally agree with everything I've said,

1013
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: And like, I think this gets into like a really

1014
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: big part of it too, which was what you were

1015
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 2: talking about like a lot of people, And it sounds

1016
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: like the listener that wrote in this this email talked

1017
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: about like a lot of us, especially during you know,

1018
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: the the Heights of the Pandemic and Lockdown, like really

1019
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 2: got into these sort of content creators.

1020
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: I watched a.

1021
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: Lot of like you know, I got really into like

1022
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 2: a lot of little like tyro TikTok and stuff like that,

1023
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: like over the like in the middle of blockdown a

1024
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: lot of that too, Like you know, I'm not going

1025
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 2: to get into the whole like you know, New Age

1026
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: all right, pipeline stuff. But you know, I think we

1027
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: keep seeing more and more of these people that I've

1028
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 2: like gained these huge followings from things that seem innocent

1029
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: and like they're trying to help people live like more relaxed, fuller,

1030
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 2: healthier lives. Like we're seeing these people sort of show

1031
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: their true colors now, like over the past couple of years,

1032
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 2: and it can be really like disappointing, especially if, like

1033
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, like the world is a fucking hard place

1034
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 2: to deal with and a lot of us are just

1035
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: kind of looking for whatever help we can, and it

1036
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: sucks to see somebody like this take advantage of the

1037
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 2: fact that like so many of us are just like

1038
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 2: there's so much bullshit out there we have to deal

1039
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: with on a day to day basis, And yeah, it's disappointing,

1040
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 2: but yeah, fuck these scripters.

1041
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: Yes, as this listener put it, fuck these gripters all

1042
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: the same, always have well Joey, thank you so much

1043
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: for helping us make sense of this news. As always,

1044
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 1: where can folks keep up with all the cool non

1045
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: grift stuff that you are up to? I mean, uh,

1046
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: there might be some grifts in there. I don't know,

1047
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: no promises, but I do.

1048
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 3: I do try to avoid grifting when I can.

1049
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram slash what remains of

1050
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: Twitter at.

1051
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 3: Pat not Pratt. That's p A P T n O

1052
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 3: T P r A T t H.

1053
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: I still get to make up of a diety of

1054
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 2: the other Twitter replacements things.

1055
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 3: That have come up yet, but TVD will be there soon. Yeah.

1056
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 3: As always, Bridget, it's been a pleasure.

1057
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: The pleasure is all mine and thanks to all of

1058
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: you for listening. I will see you on the Internet.

1059
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

1060
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: out our work store at tangoti dot com. Slash store

1061
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just

1062
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: want to say hi. You can read us at Hello

1063
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for

1064
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls

1065
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget tod It's

1066
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey

1067
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

1068
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.

1069
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want to help

1070
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For

1071
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

1072
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.