1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. From coronavirus lockdowns to 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: critical race theory in the classroom, it has become crystal 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: clear that America's schools aren't working for America's students and parents. 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: My guest today has been fighting to improve education for 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: every American student for nearly forty years. She spent four 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: years serving as Secretary of Education for President Donald Trump. 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: She's joining me today to discuss her new book, Hostages 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: No More, The Fight for Education, Freedom, and the Future 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: of the American Child. In the books, she shares stories 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: of this decade long struggle to bring groundbreaking reforms to 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: American education. More importantly, she shares a roadmap for reclaiming 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: education and securing the futures of our kids in America. 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: And I have to say I regard her as a 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: good personal friend. We've been working on these kinds of 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: issues together for several decades. I'm really pleased to welcome 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: my guest, Betsy of US. She served as the eleventh 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: US Secretary of Education. She is the former chair of 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: the American Federation for Children, the Philanthropy Roundtable, and the 19 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: Michigan Republican Party. Bessie, welcome and thank you for joining 20 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: me on news World. Thanks Nude, it's great to be 21 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: with you. Thanks for the opportunity. I have to ask you, 22 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: because I think it's brilliant, but why did you decide 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: to entitle the book Hostages No More? Well, it's a 24 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: provocative title, but it's a very direct reference to a 25 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: quote by Horace Mann, who is commonly known as the 26 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: founder of America's education system, and when founding the Cage 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: twelve system, he said that educators are entitled to look 28 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: upon parents as having given their children as hostages to 29 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: our cause. Now, I think the cause was probably quite 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: laudable at that time, but it's clear that the cause 31 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: has become a whole lot more complicated and in many 32 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: cases very inappropriate for kids in the current K twelve experience. 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: And so it's a reference to freeing the kids from 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: being hostages to a government run, teacher union controlled system. Yeah, 35 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: of Cash, you've really been working on education issues for 36 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: years before he became secretary. Why did you get involved 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: and what motivated you to be so involved in education? Well, 38 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: my interests started when Dick and I were looking for 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: where we were going to send our children to school. 40 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: When our oldest son was going to start kindergarten. I 41 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: explored a number of schools around our hometown area and 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: looked at various options of places that we thought he 43 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: would thrive. One of the schools that I visited, which 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: we did not end up sending him to, but which 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: I became very involved with subsequently, was a tiny urban 46 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Christian school in the heart of Grand Rapids, serving the 47 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: community around it most families who could not afford to 48 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: pay the tuition necessary to go to this school. So 49 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: I started volunteering there, and the more I got involved there, 50 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: the more I realized that the system that we were 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: continuing to support as a state and as a country 52 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: was unfair to the families that wanted to have their 53 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: children in a place like the Potter's House but couldn't 54 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: afford to. And so what began as an advocacy role 55 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: working to provide scholarships to do mentoring and support for 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: volunteer activities that would enable more kids, quickly developed into 57 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: a realization that only through policy change that ultimately requires politics, 58 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: were we going to make a difference and power enough 59 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: families to be able to make these choices. So I 60 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: really thought that it was fascinating. Of course, your family 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: has been very influential, particularly in the Grand Rapids area 62 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: of Michigan. Do you have a worldwide interest through your 63 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: ties to AMII. When you first were approached about becoming 64 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: Secretary of Education, I mean, what was your reaction to that. Well, 65 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: I had never thought about it. I had never even 66 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: given it one second thought. And then when actually Jeb 67 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: Bush emailed me the day after the election in twenty 68 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: and sixteen and asked if I would ever consider becoming 69 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: Secretary of Education, I was dumbfounded because I'd never literally 70 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: thought about it. But then when the opportunity really materialized 71 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: and I had the interview with President elect Trump and 72 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: all of the folks that were helping him in that process, 73 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: it became a very real possibility, and I couldn't not 74 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: consider it, and I couldn't not continue to do the 75 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: things that I'd been doing on a whole different level 76 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: and a different scale. It's interesting. I think Jeff Bush 77 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: is one of the great pioneering reformers of education, and 78 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: the Florida system shows it's a remarkable level of choice 79 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: and of openness in Florida. And I think Jeff doesn't 80 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: always get the credit he deserves, and he's continued to 81 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: be deeply involved in education reform. It speaks well of 82 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: you if Jeff Bush thought you were the right person. 83 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty strong endorsement. Well, I was 84 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: very honored that he would even think of me in 85 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: the first place. And then of course Vice President Mike 86 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: Pence was a good friend and advocate as well, and 87 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: I'm sure there were others. I don't even know the 88 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: full behind the scenes, but it was certainly something I 89 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: had not anticipated or planned for, but something I was 90 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: really really grateful to have the opportunity to do. I 91 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: didn't realize that you had been asked to be ambassador 92 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: to the Netherlands during the second term of George W. Bush. 93 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: That would be an honor, and of course, coming from 94 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: the part of Michigan you're from, he's sort of natural. 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: Why did you decide that wasn't the path you wanted 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: to be on. Well, I was very honored to have 97 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: that opportunity as well. And my ancestry is one hundred 98 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: percent Dutch, so it was a natural fit. But the 99 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: time at which I was offered that opportunity to do 100 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: that role, it just didn't work for both Dick and 101 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: me and for our family, and I was deeply involved 102 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: in advocating for education freedom we called at school choice then, 103 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: but I was really involved with that as well as 104 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: a number of other things, and just felt that my 105 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: energies were best continued directed in that way. And I 106 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: appreciate it very much. You're allowing me to come down 107 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: a couple of times while you were the secretary do 108 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: things with you. And it's very striking that we actually 109 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: spend more money than any other major developed country on education, 110 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: and yet we don't get to the results. And I 111 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: think thirty seven percent more per pupil than the other 112 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: major developed nations. But in twenty eighteen, the top five 113 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: rated countries for education where China, Singapore, Estonia, Japan, and 114 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: South Korea, and the US rank twenty second. How do 115 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: you explain this dramatic difference. Well, I think the simple 116 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: explanation is we operate under essentially a government run monopoly, 117 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: and monopolies don't work, and that is bearing out in 118 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: the results that we've seen for decades, and this last 119 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: two years has really laid bare these realities for many 120 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: more families across the country. They're seeing what you and 121 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: I have seen for many years before and the reality 122 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: is we're not getting the results. Individual kids are not 123 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: getting the learning they need, and it's an untenable system 124 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 1: to keep spending more and more and more money doing 125 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: the same thing and then expect different results. Since the 126 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: Department of Education was founded in nineteen seventy nine as 127 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: a payoff to the teachers' unions by Jimmy Carter for 128 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: their endorsement, we've spent over a trillion dollars at the 129 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: federal level alone with the express goal of closing the 130 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: achievement gap. Not only have the achievement gaps not narrowed 131 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: one little bit by most measures, they've actually widened. And 132 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: the most recent data shows that those at the top 133 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: end of the performance scale have really plateau, they're not 134 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: making any more headway, and those at the bottom have 135 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: just plummeted even further. And these were assessments from before 136 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and apparently the pandemic made it much worse. Absolutely, 137 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: and we won't know for several years what the real 138 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: implications are, but we know from near term data that 139 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: most kids have lost several months, if not a full 140 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: year or more of learning because of all of the 141 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: COVID nonsense To make your point vivid for our audience. 142 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: One of the things which frightens me When I'm ask 143 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: what are the greatest threats to our future? I say 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: always education is the biggest threat. This goes all the 145 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: way back to Ronald Reagan's report in nineteen eighty three 146 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: called a Nation at Risk, because I think we really 147 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: are at risk. But one of the most sobering things 148 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: before we got to COVID, before we got to shutdowns, 149 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: before we got to trying to learn virtually in twenty nineteen, 150 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: thirty four percent of our country's fourth graders could not 151 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: read at grade level exactly. I don't know how they 152 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: can be citizens, and I don't know how they can 153 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: earn a living in the modern world. If they're being 154 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: failed that much by the education system. What do you 155 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: think could break through in changing them? Well, the simple 156 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: policy solution that I have long advocated for and that 157 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: I continue to advocate for is education freedom. So I 158 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: like to use the metaphor of a backpack. Kids go 159 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: to school every day with the stuff they need for 160 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: the day in their backpack. We should, metaphorically speaking, put 161 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: the resources that are already being spent on that child 162 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: in that backpack for the family to decide where that 163 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: child's going to go get their education and get their learning. 164 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: And I hesitate to use the word school because I 165 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: think that's too small a thinking. We have to think 166 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: more broadly about what education can look like for kids 167 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: in their K twelve years. We've seen a lot of 168 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: creativity through the pandemic of families who out of necessity, 169 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: took their kids and formed several family consortiums to homeschool 170 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: their children and maybe hired a teacher to do it, 171 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: or maybe one or more of the parents were equipped 172 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: to do it. We've seen other families form little micro schools. 173 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: We've seen a development of really strong virtual programs and 174 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: school options. We saw that private schools for the most part, 175 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: and most charter schools opened up far before the traditional 176 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: public schools did. During the pandemic. There were lots of 177 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: solutions that were happening, but tragically, for the kids that 178 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: need the most, those solutions weren't available, and they're the 179 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: ones who are going to have the long term harm. 180 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: So I go back around to this notion that we 181 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: should be funding individual children directly, not systems or buildings, 182 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: which we've just traditionally talked about. You know the system 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: needs that much more money for whatever. No, it's each 184 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: child that needs the money for their education, and let 185 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: the families decide how they're going to get those education provisions. 186 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: We're going to have a whole lot more creativity when 187 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: we create and empower all of those customers to seek 188 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: it out. From your perspective, having looked at the whole country, 189 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: what's the general impact of homeschooling. Well, the numbers that 190 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: have been reported during the pandemic, homeschooling numbers more than doubled, 191 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: and interestingly, among Black families they quinn tupled. So last 192 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: numbers I saw were fifteen percent of Black families are homeschooling, 193 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: and these are just numbers that are reported. These homeschooling 194 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: seem to work. I mean, I hear both sides of this. 195 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: In your sense, do most children who go through a 196 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: homeschool experience seem to learn more than they would have 197 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: at a traditional school. Well, I've met with lots of 198 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: homeschool families over the years, and many of them are 199 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: highly impressive. They view the world as their classroom, and 200 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: they use the resources around them to go and learn 201 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: what they want and need to learn. And so there's 202 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: many different ways to approach homeschooling, and lots of folks 203 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: in the last two years have discovered many of those, 204 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: but the resources have also grown tremendously for those who 205 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: want to access their education in a remote or different location. 206 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: So homeschooling should be supported and should be encouraged, and 207 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: all kinds of iterations of that should be encouraged as well. 208 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: Empowering families with the resources to do that makes imminent sense. Hi, 209 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: this is newt We have serious decisions to make about 210 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: the future of our nation. Americans must confront big government socialism, 211 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: which has taken over the modern Democratic Party, big business, news, media, entertainment, 212 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: and academia. In my new book, Defeating Big Government Socialism 213 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: Saving America's Future, I offer strategies and insights for everyday 214 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: citizens to save America's future and ensure it remains the 215 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: greatest nation on Earth. It is a must read for 216 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: any concerned citizen. 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I've been involved in school choice 225 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: since Tommy Thompson began working on it with Jesse Jackson, 226 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: State Chair Polly Williams and Wisconsin back in the late eighties. 227 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: But You've added something that I think is really right. 228 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: And I've talked about it before, but I never had 229 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: quite the language you've got. I really want to praise 230 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: you for having come up with us. And that's the 231 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: difference between school choice as a strategy and education freedom. 232 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: The way you've described it as a remarkable breakthrough, Could 233 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about education freedom. Certainly, education 234 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: freedom to me means empowering every child in their fee 235 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: family with the ability to customize their education if they want, 236 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: choose their same assigned school if they want, or go 237 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: to another school that already exists in their neighborhood or 238 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: in their city. Or it could mean putting together a 239 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: customized menu of options for a particular child based on 240 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: their needs. And maybe you have a middle school daughter 241 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: who's particularly ambitious. Say in the morning, she takes a 242 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: virtual class in Hindi from the finest professor on the 243 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: other side of the world with students from all over 244 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: the world. And then perhaps after that she goes to 245 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: a charter school for all of her applied maths and 246 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: sciences and a hands on learning environment. And then maybe 247 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: she goes to her church that has now formed a 248 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: school for language, arts and character development curricula and basically 249 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: putting together a customized menu of learn learning that would 250 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: suit her interests and needs. This could happen anywhere. This 251 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: could revolutionize kids experience of their k twelve years. And 252 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: I think about a little school that I haven't visited, 253 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: but I have a number of relatives whose grandchildren go 254 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: to this outdoor school. It's in Michigan, and they're literally 255 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: outdoors all day long. They come in for very limited 256 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: periods of time, even in the winter, but they're outdoors 257 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: and active and learning all day long, and the kids 258 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: in that particular environment are thriving. We haven't begun to 259 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: see the creativity around how we could provide education experiences 260 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: to kids because we've been stuck in this one size 261 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: fits all industrial model for over one hundred seventy five years. 262 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: I have to say, having married somebody from Wisconsin, the 263 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: idea of a year round outdoor school, You've now got 264 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: my mind going down all sorts of different paths. I'm 265 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: gonna have to think about this one for a little while. 266 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great and they must be very 267 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: hearty students to be able to do that. Now, you know, 268 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting. We do have a model for the money 269 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: following the student. It's called pelgrants. I used to work 270 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: with Sendor Lamar Alexander when he was Chairman of the Health, 271 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: Education and Labor Committee in the Senate on this whole 272 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: notion of why can't we have the equivalent of pell 273 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: grants all the way down so that the money is 274 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: out of the bureaucracy in the hands of the student 275 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: and parents. Wouldn't that model, which has been clearly accepted 276 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: for higher education, wouldn't that model be dramatically liberating for 277 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: K through twelve? Absolutely? Absolutely. As you know, we proposed 278 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: sort of a companion piece of legislation to that that 279 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: would have established a federal tax credit pool, not a program, 280 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: a pool where individuals and corporations could direct a small 281 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: portion of their federal tax bill into a scholarship granting 282 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: organization in their state, or in their grandchild state, or 283 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: wherever they wanted to direct to a scholarship program, which 284 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: then in turn would empower families and come alongside frankly 285 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: and give a lot of rocket fuel to what individual 286 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: states are doing to advance education freedom. I think this 287 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: idea continues to gain momentum, particularly again now after navigating 288 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: the last two years. I think there's increasing interest in 289 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: seeing this happen, and it would be revolutionary for kids 290 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: that needed the most. I think this whole idea of 291 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: getting the money out of the bureaucracy so that the 292 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: bureaucracy has to work to earn the money from its customers. 293 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: In effect, I noticed that the Obama administration put about 294 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: seven billion dollars into a program called School Improvement Grants, 295 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and their own Department of Education found that the test 296 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: scores were totally unchanged, that the seven billion dollars disappeared. 297 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: Exactly does the bureaucracy just kind of absorb money without change. Well, 298 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: bureaucracy is part of the problem. The other part of 299 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: the problem is this notion that a top down approach 300 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: to fixing things and doing them monolithically across a certain 301 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: geography or certain profile of school is going to make 302 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: a difference. While the School Improvement Grant program showed no improvement, 303 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: it was studied by multiple institutions, Harvard, Stanford, Brookings Institute, 304 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: and so again, the question is why do we continue 305 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: to be okay with acceding to the union demands for 306 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: more and more money and expect different results. It is 307 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: Einstein's definition of insanity, and I challenge people to defy 308 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: that and make a change and do something totally different. 309 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: This paradigm has got to shift, and it's got to 310 00:19:51,200 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: shift in favor of students. I have a project on 311 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: trying to understand an emerging new American majority. It's something 312 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: that Bernie Marcus asks us to start working on back 313 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, and one of the things we've discovered 314 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: is across the board, I mean, education, healthcare, energy, production, crime, 315 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: things now are failing to work so much that if 316 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: you simply ask people do you think that we should 317 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: return to an America that works, it's like eighty seven 318 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: percent by it. Well, if you apply the working question, 319 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: it would be so obvious overnight, how many of these 320 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: bureaucratic unionized schools don't work by any reasonable center. And 321 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: I was noticing that among charter schools, as a general 322 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: principle of New York, for example, they get sixteen percent 323 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: less money than the bureaucratic schools, and across the country 324 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: they get about thirty three percent less money, and yet 325 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: for cording to study in New York there about twenty 326 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: five percent more cost effective at increasing achievement and reading 327 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: in math. In Indianapolis they were fifty nine percent more 328 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: cost effective, forty three percent better in DC, where I 329 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: had played some role in helping get that launched, and 330 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: thirty percent in San Antonio. Shouldn't it be obvious that 331 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: if the measurement is the children that keeping them trapped, 332 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: as you point out in your book, making them the 333 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: hostages of a unionized bureaucracy that's failing, is exactly backwards. Absolutely, 334 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: And I in my book challenge this notion that we 335 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: have continued to be Okay, you know, far too many 336 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: elected officials have continued to support this cycle of a 337 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: downward trajectory for student outcomes and achievement. You know, who 338 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: we elect office matters, and what policies they support matter, 339 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: And so we have got to ensure that we're electing 340 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: people who are going to support students and their futures 341 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,239 Speaker 1: and families in their ability to make those decisions for 342 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: their students in ways we've never done before. In that context, 343 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: it seems to me that you can't understand the problems 344 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: of American education without understanding the extraordinary power that the 345 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: teachers unions now have and the degree to which they 346 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: basically own the Democratic Party. I think at one convention recently, 347 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: almost half the delegates came from the teachers union, and 348 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: the teachers unions have, of course the highest vested interest 349 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: in winning school board elections. Although the rebellion among parents 350 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: now seems to be overwhelming that at least in a 351 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: number of counties. How do you see that struggle working 352 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: its way out? You confronted it directly as the sector 353 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: of education, You've worked around it for many, many years. Now, 354 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: how do you see that evolving? Well? I think that 355 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: the elections upcoming and some of the ones that have 356 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: taken place, primary elections and off cycle elections, Glenn Junkin's 357 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: election in Virginia for governor, a lot of these points 358 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: to the fact that this is a very salient political 359 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: issue today. And even scrolling back to Ronda Santas's victory 360 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: in Florida in twenty eighteen, where the margin there was 361 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: almost directly attributable to the increased volume of Black women 362 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,719 Speaker 1: voting in favor of Ronda Santis, double the percentage of 363 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: any expected level, and against an African American competitor on 364 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: the Democrat side of the equation. All of the survey 365 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: data says, when you ask Americans today if they support 366 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: this notion of money following the student to the school 367 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: that their parents decide is the one for them, three 368 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: out of four, no matter how you cut it, support 369 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: this notion. So politicians are going to have to acknowledge 370 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: this fact and at some point buck the strength of 371 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: the teachers unions. So ninety nine point seven percent of 372 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: the funds coming from the teachers unions and all of 373 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: their allies have gone to Democrat candidates. I mean, what 374 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: went wrong that the teachers unions are now so owned 375 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: by an ideology that simply doesn't work, and yet they 376 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: believe in it passionately. I really can't get inside their 377 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: heads to understand their thinking. But it all boils down 378 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: to money and control and power, and their focus is 379 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: not on what's right for individual students, and in fact, 380 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: so much of their rhetoric doesn't even contemplate the student 381 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: in the equation. It's just become a really rotten cycle. 382 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: You know, taxpayers ultimately fund teachers, Teachers get union dues 383 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: taken out of their pay, teachers and then all of 384 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: the other members of the teachers union that are not 385 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: necessarily in the classroom, and then that goes to the 386 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: union coffers to then fund candidates who turn around and 387 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: vote for the kind of increases one hundred and ninety 388 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: billion dollars to the Department of Education for COVID relief, 389 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: most of which hasn't even been touched. It's just a vicious, 390 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: vicious cycle, one that we have the opportunity to break 391 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: because the American people are with families and with students 392 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: well the COVID threat. Lucinde, I mean, should the unspent 393 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: money be pulled back to help balance the budget? I 394 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: would argue certainly yes. And I'm going to ask some 395 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: people in the budget committee to look into how many 396 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: different pockets of COVID relief money haven't relieved anything and 397 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: are just sitting there as money as a slush fund. 398 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: For politicians, and strikes me that that might be a 399 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: source of a surprising amount of money. I'm sure that 400 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: it is. As you know from your time in the 401 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: Department of Education, one of the characteristics of the modern 402 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: federal bureaucracy is that it has decayed to such a 403 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: degree that even if the Congress passes urgent funding, getting 404 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: it through the regulatory process and the bureaucratic process means 405 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: that the emergency may well be gone long before the 406 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: money shows up. Yeah. I will just say though, that 407 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: the first COVID relief package, which truly was the money's 408 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: the thirty billion dollars for the Department of Education, about 409 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: half to hire at half decay twelve, really with the 410 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: goal of getting kids back in school and doing the 411 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: things necessary to safely open the schools. We got that 412 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: distributed in record time thirty days, and it was unheard of. 413 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: It never was really broadly reported, but we got the 414 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: job done. The sad point is that even much later 415 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: that year, less than fifteen percent of that money was 416 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: even drawn down on YEP. And I have been a 417 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: very strong advocate because Kolisto was the ambassador of the 418 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: Vatican and I could see in Italy, which was the 419 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: first place really hit hard by COVID outside of China, 420 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: and you could tell this was going to be a 421 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: real disaster. So I had to advocated. In fact, I 422 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: wrote a newsletter saying, whatever the Trump administration thinks they're 423 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: going to spend, triple it because the problem is going 424 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: to be that bad. But the notion was, you did 425 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: it once you got through the crisis. Now you come 426 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: back with you know what I can describe as build 427 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: back poorer, which is what's happening to us right now. 428 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: I think it's a nightmare for most Americans. I have 429 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: to ask you, at a personal overview of mine, you 430 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: have ten grandchildren, which is hard to believe. Are you 431 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: able to spend time with them now that you're not 432 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: the secretary? And is it fun? Are you having a 433 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: good time? It's wonderful And most recent one was born 434 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: two months ago and the next one five months ago. Yes, 435 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: it's just a joy to be able to spend time 436 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 1: with all of them, and most of them in you know, 437 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: sort of episodes, not all of them together at any 438 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: one time very often, but when we are we certainly 439 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: grab lots of photos, which is great. That's great, and 440 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: You've certainly earned it, and I think you bring that 441 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: kind of mothering and grandmothering intensity to trying to save 442 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: every child and give every child a chance to truly 443 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: have a good education. I'm so delighted that you have 444 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: stayed active, and I think Costage Is No More is 445 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: a really, really important book. And as I said, you've 446 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: sort of broughten my own thinking towards education freedom rather 447 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: than school choice. I want to thank you for serving 448 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: a Secretary of Education. I remember how much you were 449 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: doing and how hard you were working, and how much 450 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: you and your team were changing the bureaucracy. Well, thank you, 451 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: newte Like I said, it was a deep honor to serve, 452 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 1: and my commitment to students continues. I will continue to 453 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: fight for them and fight for their futures every breath. 454 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: I take thank you to my guest Betsy to us. 455 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy her new book, 456 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: Hostages No More, The Fight for Education Freedom and the 457 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: Future of the American Child on our show page at 458 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. Newtworld is produced by Gingwish three sixty 459 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Slump. Our producer 460 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 461 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 462 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've 463 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 464 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 465 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 466 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 467 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingwish three sixty dot com 468 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I am Newt Gingrich. This is Newtworld.