WEBVTT - Beyond Brand Purpose with Alain Sylvain 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.200 What's up. I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:13.400 back to Atlantia. Allen Sylvain from Sylvain, a strategy consultancy, 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.120 is joining us today. Before we get into the interview, 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.639 Laura and I have a little riff. What have you 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:23.279 been thinking about lately? What have we've been talking about lately? Alexa? 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.240 As you know, I've played sports the majority of my 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:30.440 life and I'm constantly thinking about ways brand marketers can 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:35.200 get in and support women's leagues, female athletes. And recently 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.920 I caught an ad from CarMax that features Sue Bird 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.720 and Steph Curry, and an example of where a brand 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.440 not only got in to highlight a narrative and celebrating 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.839 Sue Bird's accolades, you know, juxtaposed against Steph Curry, but 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.840 also want to step further and signed on to be 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.840 an official partner of the w n B. A that 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:02.120 type of next step action of not only leveraging media 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.800 and marketing, but to actually go to the next level 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.560 and invest in the growth. I think it really brings 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.560 it back to a conversation we've been having, which is 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.960 not just how consumers are shareholders, but us as as 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.720 media buyers can think about approaching the work we do 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.640 through a shareholder lens, and so I think again, this 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.120 CarMax example is one in which, um, I hope to 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.360 see more of you and I are very different. You 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.600 were in sports, I was in the arts. So I 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.840 totally agree in terms of from the marketing advertising side, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.560 and I love the kind of perspective as an athlete. 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.600 I don't think you're alone. So a lot of females 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:47.039 out there who are the decision urs on dropping money 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.120 on a car and many other consumer products. So how 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.760 do we have a conversation at a brand inside, at 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.160 the table with a partner to say, yes, okay, I 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.080 want the big volume numbers, but actually, if I go 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:05.320 left where nobody else's I'm going to have something that 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:11.320 is so much greater, with so much more fandom potential. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.880 And I'm doing the right thing. I'm standing up for 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.359 what I believe in, you know, like a building on that. 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.480 I think it's a difference between being a marketer that's 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:28.400 there to borrow audience to being an active participant who's invested. Yes, 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.840 it's being invested in the growth not just of the sport, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.400 but of the audience and community that exists within it. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.600 These are the buyers of your service or product and 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.400 the future buyers. And we were at to E we 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.240 used to talk about this all the time. Who are 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.920 the future buyers and who are the future shareholders of 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:53.080 this company? Are we even talking to them and not 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.680 talking at them? Are we opening them up to how 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.840 we're creating something that they can either A be a 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.760 part of B invest in right to say, not only 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.280 are we looking for our buyers, were that's how you're 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.000 investing in your buyers in a different way. I would 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.560 actually say that this is really in a girl at 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.320 the top at the CMO level to be thinking about 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.919 this right and the buyers on the agency side should 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.560 be thinking about this on the day to day. Cmos 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.720 should be requiring this type of thinking and so that 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.240 when they're sitting down with a media plan, they are 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.280 not just looking at where they're showing up, they're looking 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:39.320 at where they're investing. Period. So with that, Allen Sylvain 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:53.400 from Sylvain, we'll be right back. Welcome back at Landia. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:59.560 We are here with a good friend, Ellen Sylvan, founder 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.680 and CEO of Sylvain. Welcome, thanks for having me. Yeah, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.360 that's that's fantastic. I'm happy to be here. I have 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.160 been lucky enough to work with you, and I'd love 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.120 to hear from you not only your description of Sylvain, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.360 but what kind of work you've kind of evolved into 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.200 over the years. Yeah, thanks for asking, and you're asking 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.440 a good time too, because yesterday was our eleven year anniversary, 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.719 So yeah, thanks. The answer to that question has changed 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.279 a lot over those eleven years. But basically, UM Sylvain 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.800 is a strategy and design consultancy. UM. Really, what we 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.320 try to do is help companies imagine the future of 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.120 their products and their brands, and we do that through 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.000 innovation consulting, so helping companies like imagine what new needs 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.320 are around product experiences, and also brand strategy, so thinking 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.039 about you know, what is the brand, who is it for, 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.280 where does it fit in the world. It's really all 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:56.120 designed to to help companies progress and help society and 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.400 large progress, uh, you know, help the needs of people 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.720 progress all that. What's the origin story? Yeah, I mean 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.200 I don't know when you start these things, UM, sometimes 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.880 it's a little bit of the dream of entrepreneurialism, which 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.400 was definitely my case, Like I wanted to make something, 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.440 I want to build something, from scratch. But also I 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.480 worked at Mother, which was like a and is at 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.600 the particular time was like a very avant garde and 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.040 UM creatively driven agency UM, And so I wanted to 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:25.640 I wanted a little bit of that, but I also 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.680 wanted a bit of the management consultancy, buttoned up, rigorous discipline, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.720 marketing best practice, and so I kind of I worked 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.280 at a similar place to Sylvan and really felt like 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.640 if my boss could could do this, I could probably 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.200 do it the way I want. But I convinced a 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.120 couple of people to join me, and those people are 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:46.360 still with me, and and yeah, that's that's the that's 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.520 the origin story. You guys are a B corp. You're 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:54.159 one of the only consultancies that's a B corp? Why 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.440 why was that important to you? It wasn't. It wasn't 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.480 right out the gate. It was maybe four years ago. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.800 But I don't know, I mean, I they struggled with 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.920 the work we do. You know, how do you advocate 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.800 for brands and advocate for consumerism in a world like 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.400 like we live in now? And is there a way 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.160 to make our work will feel a little bit more 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.080 virtuous and feel like it has a soul and has 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.520 a purpose, you know. And um, the b LAB set 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.360 up the certification, which is pretty amazing. You know, companies 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.600 that live up to a certain standard, and there's not 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.080 easy to live up to these standards. You know. We 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:26.880 we we applied the first year, we didn't get it, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:28.960 and and we have it now. And by the way, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:30.719 you need a score of eight out of a hundred 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.440 to get it, and we have like an eight point four. Okay, 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.760 so we we barely made it. And that explains your 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.400 other point, which is that it's really hard for consultancies 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.680 and agencies to get the certification. They're very When we 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.080 did it four years ago, there was one other one 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.520 in the entire world out of the twenty and they 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.200 were a consultancy like ours, and they were focused on 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.640 a nonprofit space. You know, we work with some pretty 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.719 serious violators of the environment and some pretty some pretty 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.560 fucked up companies. Can I say that, Yeah, oh yeah 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:04.720 you can. So, so the b LAB certification really helped reconcile, 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.600 you know, what, who we were as people, the work 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.120 we do, and just make sure we're doing right by 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.960 the consumers, we represent, the employees, clients, all that and 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.840 for anyone who is not familiar with that certification. It entail. Yeah, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.000 they track a number of things. They tracked like your 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.000 environmental footprint, like how do you how much impact do 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:28.760 you have in the world when it comes to the environment, 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.800 They track you're you know, how much are you engaged 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.200 with the local community? Um, do you volunteer and and 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:36.880 that sort of thing. And then also how do you 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.280 treat your employees, like thinking about employee well being and 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.480 policies and so on. So the thing about us is 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.080 that we were treating our employees well, but we didn't 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.400 have policies in place to really hold us accountable to it. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.760 So the BE certification helps us just really be buttoned 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.320 up in terms of like, you know, what is our 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.480 parental leaves policy? Like we of course we always had 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.560 it down, but why is it among the best in 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.920 the world. Let's put it to let's put it on paper. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:02.880 I don't know if that it's among the best of 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.360 the world. I'm just saying. And things like that really 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.000 forced us to just put pen to paper and hold 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:13.960 ourselves accountable. So so Patagonia is the biggest UM certified 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.720 the corporation and and their famous obviously for their environmental friends. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.680 So we we we kind of looked to companies like 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.880 that Ben and Jerry's and something, you know, some of 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.640 these other companies that are getting a lot of attention 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.400 these days for making wise choices, and we want to 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:33.360 be among that group. Getting the bi core certification, you 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:39.320 talked about holding yourself accountable working with companies or partners 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.200 that we're doing things maybe that are less than ideal, 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.320 right for society, for the environment, etcetera. Has that certification 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:52.760 cemented even a way of thinking about who you partner with, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.800 like what clients you do take on did they have 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.240 to adhere to something? So we're working on that. We're 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:00.920 thinking about whether we need to create some sort of 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.480 policies to make that, you know, some sort of um 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.200 litmus tests for what qualifies as the client in the 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.040 work we do. There is still like an internal sort 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:14.600 of evaluate evaluation you make um to determine, you know, 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.000 who do you want to work with him? Should you 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.280 work with them? And that that's like, uh, that was 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.280 true all alone and for me, you know, for the 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.120 most part, it's about companies that are responsible when it 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.600 comes to environmental impact and so on, but also does 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.000 it make you feel good, like do you want to 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.120 you want to really be among And it's a hard 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.480 it's it's it's a really hard thing to do. The 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.439 thing I've learned in leading an agency is recognizing it 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.160 as much as what you know you do well, Um, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.640 it's as important to understand the areas in which you 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.559 should not operate. And I'm curious to know over the 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.920 last eleven years what you've learned distracts from the mission 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.199 or at least the mission for for where we're headed 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.400 in the present sense. Yeah, it's a it's a good question, 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:55.959 you know. For what we do in election those is 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.240 what we do. We do a lot of upfront strategy work, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.160 so we help build brands and you know, developed ideas 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:02.840 that are ready to go to market. And as soon 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.200 as we're done with the project, clients are like, let's 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.320 take it to market, you know, so that immediately they 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.360 want a creative agency or design agency or something like that. 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.559 And if I'm honest, we really were a strategy driven company. 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.439 We do strategy better and I'm among the best in 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.800 the world, right, that's what we aspire almost. I'm a strategist, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:22.920 the founder and CEOs of Strategist. Over the years, we've 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.400 developed a pretty solid design capability, and Alex and I 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.480 have talked about this too, you know, I wanted to 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.760 get better and we're still bringing on people. We have 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:35.280 about five or six designers UM. So sometimes we it's 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.880 only natural for us to take the brand work to design, 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:40.480 but it's always a weird sort of things, like we're 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.960 building our design capability, um. But we've we've worked on 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.600 some pretty amazing design challenges. So that's just designed. The 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.079 next step though, like the creative communication side of things, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.760 or even potentially even the experiential side of things, like 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:55.600 we don't know how to do. So what we often 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.120 do is will clients want us to take that Clients 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.280 want us to own at work because they feel like 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.120 it's got some strategic foundation and some strategic rigor. So 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.880 we'll do is we'll bring in fronts um. You know, 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.040 if if an agency like Giants Mool that we like, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.160 or if it's like a people that we've worked with 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.680 in the past, will cobble together something and we'll play 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.200 the collective collective tissues. So over the eleven years, we've 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:18.920 done that. A few times. We did we had we 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.319 did like a huge campaign launch for Amazon last year 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.280 for their luxury stores. Um, it was, it was. It 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.360 was not what I was expecting to do. Who wants 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.040 to talk about luxury stores like campaign work? Like campaign work? 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:31.600 All of a sudden, we have like our directors and 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.800 we had freelancers and all that. So to answer your question, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.040 or like, we don't do campaign development stuff, but we're 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.040 kind of thinking about it as as a natural extension 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.040 of where we can play, whether that's bolstering our design 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.680 capability or even going all in on agency work. What 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.520 are the watch outs, um for agency leaders, particularly independent 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.760 as they're thinking about navigating and where you're saying, I 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.400 can get up until this point, Could I take it on? 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.120 Should I? Maybe? But if I clicked it in this 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:05.080 capacity with another partner, one plus one equals three. Can 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.120 you talk about that experience? Sure? You know it's definitely 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:09.439 something I think a lot about. You know, there's a 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.400 there's a big trap in this work that we're doing. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.240 You know, we're trying to launch something and let it 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.240 grow fast and be better than anybody else. We're stressed 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.320 about cash flow, so it's very easy to be you know, 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.160 a new opportunity presents itself. We've been trained to say 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.440 we can do everything Like that's kind of our jam, right, 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.200 like you need that. Yeah, we can figure out a 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.520 way to do it. But the real lesson the trap 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.400 is is hubris and arrogance and really believing you could 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.199 do everything. And I follow in that trap anytimes. And 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.400 it's it's important to stop and realize when you can't 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:42.640 do something. But meanwhile, you also have to be clever 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.880 about how you grow. And if I can just tell 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:46.400 you one quick story, and I think I may have 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.760 even shared this story, we want to be before um 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.360 we we work on this huge project for a strategy 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.880 project for a financial services company, and I had this idea. 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.400 I was like, Yo, you guys need to do this event. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.280 I have an idea for an experiential concept. Put it 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.360 on the part of Davos and the aspin is to 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.160 like something crazy. It's gonna bring people together from all 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.720 over the world's really interesting about profit and purpose. And 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.520 this is like five years ago before people were talking 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.200 about profit and purpose, okay, And and the clients were like, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.240 and I came up with a name, I came up 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.160 with a sketch, I came up with a whole concept, right. 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.440 I I pitched it to the clients and then they 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.320 that was the project come up with ideas and they 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.400 loved it. They were and this is a big multinational 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.719 and financial organization and they were like, let's go. And 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.199 they looked at me and they said, go, we will 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.400 give this projects. You go build this event for us. 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.640 And I was like what. I was like, I don't 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.120 I don't know the first thing about events, like putting 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.160 together an event. I don't know the first thing how 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.520 to pull that off. And so I had to go 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.400 back and say we can't do it, um. And that 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.160 I think was a huge lesson for me. It's like, 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.800 and a very smart lesson is you know no when 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.480 to say you can't do something. The clients and then 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.880 asked me to be the play the client on the 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.760 on the project and hire an experiential company. So we 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.360 went out and hired an experiential company and I got 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:02.559 that invoice and I was like, I need to be 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:07.520 in that business. Um. But but yeah, that's that's the 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:12.680 trap I thing when I've worked with agencies that don't 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.040 have a certain capability or skill set. In fact, Laura 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.160 and I when we work together when I was at GE, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.360 we used to we used to think about publishers and 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.680 media companies like this. We would go to them and 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.760 we'd be like, this is what you're really good at. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.920 These are your best assets, these are the assets we 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.120 want to work with, and this is how we want 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.400 to do it. And I think that clients actually need 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.320 to do that more. They need to do the work 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.480 on the agency and say, this is why I want 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.040 to partner with you. This is your special this is 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:42.640 and nol En, you and I have talked about this, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.360 right like, this is your special, this is what you 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.560 crush at. I need you to keep crushing there. And 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.880 if you can be a partner to me in other 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.600 areas and help me get to an agency or someone 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.440 who can do that other thing really well. I trust 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.400 you because I trust your tape East, I trust your compass. 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.680 I think that more clients actually need to need to 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.240 think about that because I think it's also really easy 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:14.360 to go to a big, big network and hand them everything. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.320 Talk about both of you, actually, Laura and Ellen right 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.760 are with independent shops. There are not a lot of 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:26.720 independent shops around, especially post COVID. Do you talk about 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.880 the decision to stay independent post the last year of COVID. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.840 You know, independence is a virtue is who we are 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.760 and it allows us to do a lot of really 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.320 exceptional things. And I have no quants, Like I'm very 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.880 clear about the places I would want to work in 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.360 my life, and they're very very few. Um and also 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.280 in places I want the people I work with to 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.480 work for, and so it makes it very easy. They're 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.200 very very very few places where I would feel comfortable, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.440 um working knowing that we're certified the corporation. You know, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.840 I'm a black amer again, Like you know, minority owned 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.360 is important part of how I view the world and 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.480 who we represent. And if we were to get acquired 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.000 that that ethos would need to carry forward. And so 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.400 it's it's not something I think about, like let's stay independent, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:18.120 let's say independent. With that said, um, you know, we 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.760 we sometimes have conversations and it's interesting and you know, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.840 which gets to your other question about COVID. We're out 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.200 here hustling, like we're just trying to survive out here. 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.040 I think the key thing I would I would say though, 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.280 to answer your question Alexa, is like we quickly pivoted, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.120 you know, we we were really instead of waiting and 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.040 to see what would happen, like what clients are gonna emerge, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.440 like what's what new questions are we going to ask? 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.320 We immediately started to do stuff and you'll remember this, 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.720 like we we created like a digital learning school, like 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.760 a school on how to how to deal with prices. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.880 We we just started making stuff like crazy. We created 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.080 a podcast, like we just started making tons of tons 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.400 of I started speaking like crazy and went, you know, 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.160 conferences and stuff like that. We ended up doing well well, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:07.600 not nearly where we wanted to be, but probably, but 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:09.680 it was it was just a good way to stay 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.280 busy when you're talking about hustling right and and thinking 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.680 about finding ways to pivot, how do you get further 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.400 upstream in this moment and not necessarily focused so much 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.879 on the output, but finding ways to be a strategic 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:32.040 partner that's helping organizations, brands, businesses transform their overall footprint. 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.119 You know. I mean that that's it's really to me 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.720 been about business transformation UM, and that transformation doesn't necessarily 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.480 have to be ripping up an entire playbook and starting 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.360 from the beginning, but finding ways and and new moments 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:49.480 to provide value UM that isn't solely rooted in the execution. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.960 We've got to rewrite some of the rules upstream in 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.720 order to be effective downstream. Yeah, it's a great thing 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:57.679 to bring up. I mean, we we are privileged in 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.840 this way, if I'm being honest, because we're strategy consults. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.159 So strategy was already what we were doing, and so 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.800 we were well positioned in this regard. It doesn't mean 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.800 it was easy because even the most you know, the 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.119 savdiest clients had no idea what was going on and 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.320 what to do. I talked to some clients who really 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.320 felt like this was going to be a short term thing. 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.040 Other clients thought it was gonna be a long term thing. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.400 Your clients talking about L shaped processions, V shape processions, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:25.119 K shaped recessions, Like, I was like, how many shape processions? 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.000 But being upstream and already being in a place where 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.159 we're talking to clients about their vision and they're already 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.639 in the midst of transformation, it made it easy to 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.800 to to to be relevant um and for them to 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.840 continue to ask us to do stuff. That's not true 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.080 for all clients. And if you look at if you 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.159 look at our client lists, we had a few that 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.000 we were doing a lot of work within the hospitality 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.960 space for example, UM and so, and it was chilling 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.080 to send emails to those clients on March their teeth 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.520 and for something to get bounced back. That's like those 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.320 same clients we worked with are no longer at the company. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.199 Was like a sobering thing. On the flip side, we 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.680 were working with digital services companies that were killing you know, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.959 like you know, the unicorns, you all know what I'm 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.159 talking about. We're working with a lot of those, and 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.439 they they just continue to to to do work and 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:17.719 look for insight and it was almost like a luxury 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:22.200 for them to have to think critically upstream. But if 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.520 i'm I do think there's a there's an inherent challenge 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.320 in strategy companies for being upstream and that you are 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.720 not relevant for the entire cycle, in the same way 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.800 as a challenge for companies that are downstream who fight 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.000 to be taken seriously when it comes to upstream strategic decisions. 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.920 You know, I talked to so many production companies or 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.600 experiential agencies or creative agencies that are like, you know, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.080 we wish we could shape the product or the brand 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.119 that we're working on right now. We just have to 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.120 We're just given a brief and we have to execute, 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:52.600 and that's not where we believe we can add the 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:58.800 most value. There is this inherent tension between brand and product. 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.560 Do you ever sit down with the chief product officer 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.000 and you've sat with the chief marketing officer and you're 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.000 seeing kind of a tale of two cities? Oh yeah, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:11.960 all the time. I guess the question is is like, 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.199 how do you reconcile that? How does how do you 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:15.960 reconcile that? And I think that we're in a really 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.840 I personally feel like we're in a really interesting place 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:25.119 right now where brand is incredibly important, probably more important 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.680 than it ever has been. Yet there are a lot 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.040 of people sitting in boardrooms and leadership positions saying we 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.479 don't need it. How do you reconcile those things? And 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:38.480 has the conversation changed in the last year. I don't 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:40.439 think the conversations changing the last last year. I think 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.800 the rub has always existed, going back when I was, 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.040 you know, in the nineties, you know, like it's always 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.040 been a thing. It's probably well before that, right But 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.320 what I think is interesting is that I think the 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.280 way to answer that question is not through the eyes 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.400