1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. I hope you're not afraid 4 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: of sneaks, folks, though it is an understandable, almost primal 5 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: fear common to so many people today and throughout the past. 6 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: That's our one and only snake tamer slash super producer, 7 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams. They called me Ben snake bite Boland. No, 8 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: what do you have a snake nickname? Yeah? Yeah, definitely. 9 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep that one in my back pocket though 10 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: for a for a future time in case I need 11 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: to go on the Lamb and I need like a 12 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, a really cool badass nickname from my new 13 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: criminal life. So I'm gonna sit on this one. Hopefully 14 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: go get bitten there we go, watch out for that part. Yeah. 15 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: My mom has terrified of snakes, like even like images 16 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: of snakes. And I think I've made no secret about 17 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: my phobia's bird related. But like I can watch people 18 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: always like, oh God, have you seen the movie The Birds? 19 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, I can watch a movie about birds, It's fine. 20 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: I just don't want actual physical birds coming at me. 21 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: Which they will do because they are untrustworthy and they're 22 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: basically little winged dinosaurs with no you know, emotion. They 23 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: they look at them, there's nothing there. But my mom 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: can't even look at a picture of a snake, or 25 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: see a nature documentary about a snake, or even have 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: like a rubber snake in her presence, she will lose 27 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: her mind, so that the primal urge you speak of 28 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: Ben is strong with her. M What about you, Max? 29 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: Where are you at real snakes? Yeah? I don't know. 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't really have much opinion about him, Like I 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: don't love them too much, don't really hate them too much. 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: What if what if someone were to ask you to 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: place a you know, the venomless, harmless quote unquote boa 34 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: constrictor around your neck for a cute photo op. Would 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: you do it? Would you do it? I mean they're 36 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: literally constrictors. I don't know that. What if it was 37 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: like what if it was like a real sexy Siegfried 38 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: and Roy slash stage magician in Vegas thing, you know 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: what I mean, and you were like you were like 40 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: the magical Max or something like that, and you had, 41 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, a boa constrictor. Yeah, I mean the find 42 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: I would probably do it. I mean, I'm downe to 43 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: like yes and that shows and stuff. I'll go along 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: with it all. Like you know, if you do an 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: improv with a snake, I mean, which was like Fred 46 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: behind an alley, He's like, hey, hold my magical stay, 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely not. But if it's like a professional production. 48 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: If if a random dude in an alley asked you 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: to hold his magical sea, I think he'd probably be 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: talking about something a little language bearer. Thing might be euphemism. 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: I like snakes, you know, I'm a huge fan in 52 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: the natural world in general. Um, but there is this 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: there is this innate ability that people appear to have 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: that allows them to detect snakes and spiders and an 55 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: aptitude for learning to fear them very quickly. There was 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: some research from the University of Virginia that found this. 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: But people have lived with snakes for a long long time. 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: A good friend of the show, actually several several of 59 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: our colleagues, several of my friends are long time snake owners. 60 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: Armchair herpetologist. I guess you could call them as an 61 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: etymology nerd, as someone obsessed with it. I do need 62 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: to check out to see, I do need to figure 63 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: out why herpes and herpetology sounds so similar. One is 64 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: an STD One is the study of like snakes and reptiles. Anyhow, 65 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: what we're saying is people have lived with snakes for 66 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: such a long time, and today's episode takes us you 67 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: can actually lead a very normal life. Well, actually, depending 68 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: on which simplex you're talking about, I think by a 69 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: certain age, the vast majority of human beings actually have that. 70 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: Uh So we're not here to vilify people or snakes, 71 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: but we are here to talk about something that happened 72 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: in India back in the day, something that now is 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: called the cobra effect. So yeah, so India, especially Delhi, 74 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: had an abundance of cobras, and cobras are dangerous, you 75 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: know what I mean. They're They're not like a garden snake. 76 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: They can kill you. So the British governor, this is 77 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: under colonial India, by the way, the British governor of 78 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: Delhi said, you know, like rom from from something must 79 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: be done, and he put out a bounty on cobras. 80 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: Seems normal, Yeah, you may. You know, this may conjure 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: images of like cross legged dudes in open air marketplaces, 82 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: coaxing cobras out of elaborately woven baskets um with a 83 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: flute or something. Well, that may be a very stereotypical image, 84 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: it exists for a reason because these things were literally 85 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: just coming out of baskets. They were they were just 86 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: plopped falling out of the ceiling. They were just everywhere. 87 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: The place was lousy with them, and the bounty was 88 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: pretty generous, um to the point where it kind of 89 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: had people making this like a secondary revenue stream and 90 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: going cobra hunting, which at first worked right because the 91 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: cobra population dropped. But that's when the whole idea of 92 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: the cobra effect comes into play. And what this episode 93 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: is about, truly is unintended consequences. When when when good 94 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: intentions go awry because of people's like bad intentions and 95 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: just you know, general greediness and the fact that, you know, 96 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: when there's money to be had, people will usually go 97 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: to whatever means necessary to acquire said money. Yes, yes, classic, 98 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: classic example of the old monkeys paw conundrum. I wish 99 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: there were fewer cobras monkeys. First finger curls. Can we 100 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: get a creek on that? You guys know what I'm 101 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: talking about, right, the short stand of the monkeys Paw. 102 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: There's a great reddit for this too, called there's a 103 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: great subreddit called the monkeys Paw. Check it out. Uh, 104 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: it's it's a fun thought experiment. You're absolutely right. This 105 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: is about unintended consequences. People started trying to rig the 106 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 1: game in the days of what was called the British Raj, 107 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: the colonial powers that be in India. We're increasingly miffed, 108 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: let's say, about the number of venomous cobras infesting Delhi 109 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: in particular. So they said, here's how we'll tackle the problem. 110 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: Will put out off for this bounty, and then to 111 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: verify that someone's killed the cobra, they're gonna bring us 112 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: the skin of the snake. And they realized all of 113 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: a sudden their storage rooms were full of cobra skins, 114 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: and if first, it didn't seem to have a noticeable 115 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: effect on the population in Cobra and Delhi. And that's 116 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: where city officials figured out local farmers being incredibly intelligent, 117 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: people said, why do I need to go out in 118 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: the streets hunting for snakes when I can just catch 119 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: a couple and then keep them and basically farm them, 120 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: raise them. I can grow cobras at home, kill them, 121 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: and then get some cash. Yeah, and the cost benefit 122 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: analysis was in their favor because they would enough profit 123 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: by you know, investing in raising the snake. Let's do 124 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: it to sell on a one snake basis, and then 125 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: they'd get that bounty and they would have, you know, 126 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: turned to profit per snake. And they could do this, however, 127 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: many times because there probably wasn't really a cap on it. 128 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know the exact specifics of the deal, 129 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: but it sounds to me like it was pretty loosey goosey, 130 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, or snaky um. And the thing that's so 131 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: interesting is like this is, uh, this seems in general 132 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: like a pretty good idea, you know. I mean, nobody 133 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: wants the streets just teeming with venomous snakes that will, 134 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, from one bite from which could could put 135 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: you down. Literally. This seems like humans working against their 136 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: own self interest in the name of of the almighty dollar. 137 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: But I guess maybe these farmers lived more like out 138 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: in the sticks or something like that, and they weren't 139 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: as concerned about city life. I'm not sure. It's a 140 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: little unclear but this is not a problem that just 141 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: existed in Delhi. This is an India. This is like 142 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: they call it the cobra effect because it's named after 143 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: the situation, but it was something that extended, you know, 144 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: all across the world. Yes, yeah, and let's walk through 145 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: the next step of the cobra effect before we go global. 146 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: This is where things get even worse. So the people 147 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: empower the British colonial forces realize what's going on. They say, Okay, 148 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: these guys are gaming the system and we're not going 149 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: to permit that. Because the colonial British authorities in general 150 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: hated whenever anything good happened to the actual population of India, 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: they were not particularly good rulers, so they canceled this 152 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: cobra hunting plan. They stopped paying out bounties for cobra skins. 153 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: And without the bounties, these cobra farmers said, oh, these 154 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: skins are worthless. All these captive cobra we have they're 155 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: now pointless. So you know, we're snake meat. I don't 156 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: know if you guys know this. I haven't eaten an 157 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: actual cobra yet, but snake meat in general doesn't taste 158 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: particularly great. I mean it's edible, it's not my bag. 159 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: So they said, you know, we're not gonna eat these things. 160 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: I guess we'll just let him go. And so let 161 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: all these cobras back on the street in Delhi. We 162 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: need a new scheme. We gotta revert back to our 163 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: old ways of farming. So what are we gonna do 164 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: with all these cobras. Let's just let them run rampant 165 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: back in the streets. So consequently, there were more cobras 166 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: at the end of the whole thing than there were 167 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: at the beginning. So snakes flooded the streets. Uh, this 168 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: story got a lot of press, and like you said, 169 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: Noel Deli's snake problem was worse than it was in 170 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: the beginning. That's what we call it the cobra effect, 171 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: which some of us fellow eighties babies may remember from 172 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: the show g I Joe got that also. I gotta say, 173 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: I think the Cobra effect would be a great name 174 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: for either an eighties hair metal type band or maybe 175 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: like an early Adds kind of like emo dance punk 176 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: type band. I don't know, Cobra Effect. I like that. 177 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm still sad that it didn't become an eighties new 178 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: wave band with people dressed as Cobra Commander. I was 179 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: so fascinated a cobra commander as a kid. Anyway, Um, 180 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: Cobra Commander was one guy. He was just the cobra 181 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: commander of all of all the cobras. Yeah, you have 182 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: to leave it was the guy with a silverhead. Silverhead. 183 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: It's costume is so awesome. He also had a hood sometimes. Um, 184 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: and then you always wonder what his face was, which is, 185 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: by the way, revealed in the g I. Joe animated 186 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: series or no g I Joe animated film, which gets 187 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: deep in the weird otherworldly cobra lore. No spoilers, is 188 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: a supernatural or anyway, we're not doing the show about 189 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: cobraate commander. Unfortunately they had supernatural powers. Well, man, you're 190 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: just gonna have to not all, you're not all, but 191 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: you gotta watch I'll watch it with you. A double 192 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,239 Speaker 1: feature with that and the g I and the Transformers 193 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: movie that has the the amazing eighties kind of soundtrack. Yeah, deal, 194 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: you got the touch, you got the power. Damn sorry, 195 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: I love that. No, it's perfect. I like this idea 196 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: because if we're gonna segue, it's called the Cobra effect, 197 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: because people do tend to have an enormous touch on 198 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: their local on their local environment, and they have a 199 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of power, but it's not always good. If you 200 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: travel to Annoy during the time that French powers were 201 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: ruling it, you see the same thing again old but 202 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: instead of the Cobra effect, this is like what would 203 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: you call it, the rat consequence? Yeah, exactly. I always 204 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: think too, it's interesting. This is it's a little aside. 205 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: You know how obviously England ruled over India under the 206 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: what was it called the English Raj British Raj, and 207 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: you know kind of developed some light they really like 208 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: developed a taste for Indian food where certain versions of 209 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: it kind of were developed that were like to suit 210 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: the English palette and kind of became really really popular 211 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: in you know, London and in the UK. But it's 212 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: something you would never have seen in you know, actual 213 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: ectual Delhi, like things like chicken tika massala and all that. 214 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: Same with French rule over Vietnam. It's what gives you 215 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: things like the bond Me sandwich, which is essentially a 216 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, a French baguette with all of this amazing 217 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: you know, barbecued Vietnamese meats and and uh seasonings and 218 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, vegetables and stuff. So I do appreciate that 219 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: consequence of empire building. But the rest of it's a 220 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: little sketch culinary colonialism, I like to call it. Yeah, 221 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: And it leads to an amazing uh syncretism, just like 222 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: with religion, right, and you could look at I was, 223 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: honestly because I get in weird rabbit holes. I was 224 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: reading earlier this weekend the amazing story of Chinese food 225 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: throughout the diaspora. You know, in an American Chinese food, 226 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, is a cuisine all its own. 227 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: But yes, I love it. Also lucky for the United 228 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: Kingdom that they they learned from the Indian subcontinent about 229 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, I'll say it how to cook. Oh, I 230 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: would say, curry is the national is pretty much like 231 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: the national dish of the UK exactly. Yeah. But but 232 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: but it's like there's a name for it. There's like 233 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: there's a name for the style of cooking, uh, that 234 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: type of Indian cuisine that's it's called like fast British 235 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: style or something like that. Or there are these like 236 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: little curry shops that like have a very specific order 237 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: of operations. It's very different from traditional cooking, and they 238 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: acknowledge that there's another name for that. I'm spacing on. 239 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: But last day, Uh, the dough Boys podcast brought up 240 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: this question, and I want to put it to you guys. 241 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: Is a bond Me a sub sandwich? Yeah? I guess 242 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: I don't. I've never thought about it, but I guess. 243 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: So it's really whether you emphasize the bread or the ingredients. 244 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, man, I've gone through I'm like 245 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Strange with the timestone. I've gone through every iteration 246 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: of what is a sandwich? Or what is what kind 247 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: of sandwich? Question? I think I might have a problem. 248 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: But yes, well, but it's like, you know, a meat 249 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: ball sub is in the name, you've got like an 250 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: Italian sub, you've got like a veggie sub or like 251 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: you know whatever, a turkey sub sub is usually in 252 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: the name. Bond Me has all the makings of a sub, 253 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: but you never call it that. So I just uh. 254 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: One of the one of the dough Boys was was 255 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: vehemently anti bond Me being a sub and then resent 256 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: today when everybody else on the show just rolled forward 257 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: with that as though well he can he can call me. 258 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: We can talk a sub as a sub, as a sub. 259 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: To paraphrase the old literature quote, a sub by any right, 260 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: a sub by any other name, and a cobra effect 261 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: by any other name. Hannoy is annoyed with all the rats. 262 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: It's guy named Paul Dumer goes to Vietnam. He's still 263 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: in the younger part of his middle age. He's he's 264 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: forty something and he is a government worker for France. 265 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: But he just had a big swing and a mist 266 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: in his career. He had a scheme for a new 267 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: kind of income tax and it failed, and so he 268 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: resigned from his job as Minister of Finance and decided 269 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: to you know, to hit the rails, or to hit 270 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: the high seas, to ghost in other words, and try 271 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: to find a new life abroad. He'd been appointed Governor 272 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: General of French Indo, kind of a group of colonies 273 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia, and that includes what is now present 274 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: day Vietnam. So he was like, I'm gonna make everything modern. 275 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put into all this modern infrastructure in Hannoi. 276 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: I want you to feel like you're walking in France 277 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: when you walk in Hannoi and it kind of worked 278 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: for a while. You know, they built things in a 279 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: lot of European styles. Uh. He was very, very proud 280 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: in particular of bringing what he saw as the modern 281 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: European toilet to Hannoi. Yeah, you know the French and 282 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: their their bi days and all of that. They're really 283 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: big on on toilet training. It's it's it's it's it's 284 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: a it's a huge part of the culture. So they 285 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: wanted to distinguish French Hannoi from the rest of the country. 286 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: And there was already a massive network of sewers that 287 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: ran under the French section of the city, and there 288 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: was a smaller network of these tunnels that served specifically 289 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: the neighborhoods where Vietnamese people actually lived. It was seen 290 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: in the eyes of the French overlords is kind of 291 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: a sign of of this I'm not joking this you know, 292 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: culture of kind of cleanliness and civility. So it wasn't 293 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: a great look or feeling or or vibe in general 294 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: when massive sewer rats started literally popping out of toilets 295 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: that were connected to them. Yeah, they didn't have a 296 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: they didn't have the little s shape. Probably that's in most, uh, 297 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: most commodes that people are familiar with, rats literally began 298 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: emerging for the drains. And I mentioned this off air, 299 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: but it's pretty common fear. A lot of people have 300 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: both snakes and rats emerging from commodes. Uh, you don't 301 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: have personal experience with this, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, 302 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: thankfully the freaking lid was down, but I just heard 303 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: something rustling about in there, and I'm like, it was 304 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: like a movie moment, you know, where I'm like slowly 305 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: lifting up there and there's this big honking, nasty wet 306 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: sewer rat in there. I had to do it. I 307 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: had to kind of take a beat. I don't remember exactly. 308 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: I think I had called a braver friend than me 309 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: who kind of helped me with the situation. But yeah, 310 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: he helped me bag it and tag it and toss it. 311 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: It was really gross and really scary, and thankfully I 312 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: wasn't sitting on the thing at the time. Well you 313 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: probably would have heard something, so uh, yes, yes, I'm 314 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: glad as well. I've had rats emerged from drains in kitchens, 315 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: not like the kitchen sink, but like a back access 316 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: area where piping goes outside during floods. Things like that, 317 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: and you know, when New York floods, for instance, you'll 318 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: see a proliferation of rats. Rats are incredibly intelligent creatures. 319 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a fun nonfiction book to read 320 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: and the phobia is not too much for you, there's 321 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: a great book out there named Just Rats, and it's 322 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: about all their amazing abilities. I think that one focuses 323 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: on rats in New York, but both Robert Lamb, friend 324 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: of the show, and myself were big fans of that book. Anyway, 325 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: here's what happens. Paul her buddy Paul d His vision 326 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: was pretty ambitious and he did follow through on it. 327 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: Under his direction, the French colonial government laid out almost 328 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: ten miles more than nine miles of sewer pipe beneath Hannoy. 329 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: But when it did that, it accidentally created a really 330 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: cool new suburb for rodents. The temperature wasn't crazy, it 331 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: was nice and dark. Predators get didn't go down there. 332 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: So the first like Rat, Adam and Eve, of these 333 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: miles of sewer pipe are able to reproduce like never before. 334 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: And if they get hungry, then they've pretty much got 335 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: a road system underground that takes them to the most 336 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: expensive part of town which I'll have the nicest food, 337 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: which I'll have the nicest trash, and then they can 338 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: go back and they can reproduce again. They multiplied exponentially 339 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: until they overran their nifty new subterranean suburb, and then 340 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: they skittered to the surface. That's enough alliteration for me today. 341 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: I accidentally improved myself into a corner with that one. 342 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: But it's a good corner, Ben. It was a very 343 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: classy corner that you find, thinks man, Well, you know 344 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: what happens historically, there are some stereotypes about rats, and 345 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: unfortunately some of them are a little bit you know, 346 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 1: based in fact. As if being overrun with rodents didn't 347 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: disrupt this illusion of old world Europe already, the bubonic 348 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: plague started started popping. All the bubbles are coming. Yeah, 349 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing. Rats were carrying that that 350 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: that particular bug and spreading it around, you know, through 351 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: far and wide, through through this network of sewage pipes. 352 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: It was a pretty pretty bad scene. We had cases 353 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: starting to present themselves. This is when it became much 354 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: less an issue of decorum and civility and much more 355 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: of like a public health disaster. That needed to be 356 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:38,959 Speaker 1: dealt with. So enter Vietnamese rat hunters. Very similar situation 357 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: to what we had in Delhi, only I believe these 358 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: were sanctioned or hired. Right. This wasn't like a kind 359 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: of mercenary system with a bounty. This is like these 360 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: were hired by the colonial government. Um they would go 361 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: down into the sewers to hunt down the rat and 362 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: then get paid per rat. But still when you're when 363 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: you're paying per rat, though, similar kind of situation is 364 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: going to present itself where it's like, gosh, it sure 365 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: is a pain hunting these rats down on the sewer. Um. 366 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a workaround. There's got to be a better way, 367 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: says says the main character of every made for TV commercial. Uh, yes, yeah, 368 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: that's the idea. They began what is called the Great 369 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: Annoy Rat Massacre. It's April two, the last week of 370 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: the month. In that last week alone, almost eight thousand 371 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: rats are murderized, uh, seven thousand nine to be exact. 372 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: That's just the beginning. Because the rate of the rate 373 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: of murders of rat assassinations, we'll get there one day. 374 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 1: These continued as time went on. The death toll in 375 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: May got to be around four thousand rats per day 376 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: by May. Just that day alone, just that twenty four 377 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: hour period, the rat hunters and rat catchers killed fifteen 378 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: thousand plus rats. Yeah, I mean it started off in earnest. 379 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: It was an absolute, you know, rat apocalypse, a rat apocalypse. 380 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: I'll take that one, um, you know, and yeah, what 381 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: was it like twenty twelve rats in a single day. 382 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: We don't know exactly what methods were used for killing 383 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: the rats, presumably the government didn't care. But we do 384 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: know about this period is from a Storian named Michael 385 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: Van who was in France doing some research on French colonialism, 386 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: and he came upon a file that was called Destruction 387 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: of Animals Rats uh, inside of which he found some 388 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: kind of esoteric, not particularly well organized paperwork listing numbers 389 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: of rats that were exterminated in Hanoi around that time 390 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: throughout the century. He this begged the question to Van, 391 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: like what would happen to these rats? How were they destroyed? Um? 392 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: And it really wasn't clear. But he wrote a paper 393 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: on the rat masker and he kind of described the 394 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: nasty business of of rat hunting leslie uh quote. One 395 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: had to enter the dark and cramped sewer system, make 396 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: one's way through human waste in various forms of decay, 397 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: and hunt down a relatively fierce wild animal which could 398 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: be carrying fleas with the bubonic plague or other contagious diseases. 399 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: This is not even to mention the probable existence of 400 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: numerous other dangerous animals such as snakes, spiders, and other 401 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: creatures that make this author's skin crawl with anxiety. Yeah. Yeah, 402 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: they realized that. They realized that this was a dangerous 403 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: job for these rat hunters, these government sanctioned rat hunters. 404 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: But perhaps more importantly, they realized even as these rat 405 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: hunters were working full time, they weren't doing much to 406 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: stem the growth of the rat population. So the colonial 407 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: powers do what colonial powers from Britain did in India. 408 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: They opened the gates. They said, look, if you live here, 409 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: you don't have to be a government sanctioned rat hunter. 410 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: You give us a rat tail at any municipal office 411 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: and we will give you one cent. So you're on 412 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: a one cent per rat tail commission. And they wanted 413 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: rat tails so that the government would not be flooded 414 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: with a bunch of full rat carcasses, which prompted Dr Van, 415 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: who sounds like a fun guy to hang out with, 416 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: actually brought the doctor Van to say, who's this poor 417 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: guy who has to sit around and count all the 418 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: rat tails? And factions of the French colonial government were 419 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: pretty happy with this because they have been encouraging like 420 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in Vietnam, and they thought it was working. Tails 421 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: were pouring in. Then there was something else they saw. 422 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: It was all around town there were rats that were 423 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: alive and for the most part healthy, They just didn't 424 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: have their tails turned out. The hunters would rather take 425 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: the tail, then take a healthy rat which is capable 426 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: of breeding and creating a bunch of rats. Then take 427 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: a rat with those tales out of commission. So you 428 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: would kill the animal and you let it go to 429 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: breed to make more rats who would have more tails, 430 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: and you would cut those tails and then you would 431 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: sell those for a cent and you would let those 432 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: rats go and they would reproduce. And additionally, Noel Max 433 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: some people were smuggling rats into the city and then 434 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: all the cobra effects. This is the effect at large. Yes, 435 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: so they felt that they were pop up farming operations 436 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: that were breeding rats out in the outskirts of hannoy, 437 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: and of course don't cut the rat's tail off. It 438 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: sucks for the animal, of course, it sucks for the Yeah, 439 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's cruel. All of this is horribly cruel. 440 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a situation that's that's very difficult 441 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: because you know, you can't have rats just shooting out 442 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: of toilet's willy nilly. That's no good for anybody, not 443 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: just because it's gross, but again they're they're plague carriers, 444 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: so you do have to do something about it. But 445 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: this is a great example of that human ingenuity. And 446 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm using that word as a stand in for greed 447 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: and laziness. Um, essentially in this situation, Uh, it's it's 448 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: it's really rearing its ugly head. Um. Ben. Are you 449 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: familiar with the myth of the idea of a rat king? Yes, yes, 450 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: the bundle of it again. I literally read a book 451 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: just called rats. Yeah yeah, but it's not true, right, Like, 452 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: there's really no real evidence that this is a thing, 453 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: but it's the idea. Fair listener of like this, like 454 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: cluster of rats that have entangled themselves together with their 455 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: tails kind of becoming this giant knotted thing. And essentially 456 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: they've like become this single organism or something like, was 457 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: there more to it than that been? Or is that 458 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: essentially it's the urban legend of it. It's the urban legend. There. 459 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: There's a great the earliest report goes back to like 460 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds, I think. But there's a great, great 461 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: podcast on this. Uh stuff to blow your mind. The 462 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: second time I'm shouting out Robert Lamb today, I believe 463 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: that they have a podcast episode entirely on the rat King. 464 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: I think some have been found because it can happen 465 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: when they're in crowded conditions. I believe there was one 466 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: that was filmed in twenty twenty one and the rats, 467 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: you'll be happy to know, we're saved. Their tails were untangled. 468 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: This was in Russia. But I think the part, I 469 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: think you're right that the the big mythical part is 470 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: that it moves as one organism. It's just a bunch 471 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: of separate organisms that unfortunately got the tails tangled. Um yeah, 472 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: so still don't cut off the tails the rat king. God, 473 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: it's fascinating, fascinating lore. But you know, the French didn't 474 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: care at this point. They just wanted the rats gone 475 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: and they had failed. They have failed at least in 476 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: regards to pest eradication. But they have one out because 477 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: they did make a bunch of entrepreneurs and everybody living 478 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: in the city, from the wealthiest to the most impoverished, 479 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: just said, I guess we all have rats as roommates. 480 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: Now that's where we're at. But it turns out, Noel, 481 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: the French forces were right about at least one thing. 482 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: The rats really were carrying bubonic plague. The bubos were 483 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: coming in nineteen o six because the rats have been 484 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: able to multiply without without predators of any sort or 485 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: without human interference there in the sewer. There was an 486 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: outbreak of bubonic plague in Hanoi, tragically. That's right, and 487 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: the backtrack really quickly. There are several images of rat 488 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: kings that you can find on the internet. One was 489 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: discovered in Estonia. Uh not that long ago. This article 490 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: on the Guardia was from one um and the thirteen 491 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: rats entangled together, several of which are already dead. Uh 492 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: it's really pretty gnarly and um it's considered to be 493 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: an omen of plague. Uh so yeah, that's right. There 494 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: was an outbreak and again you could really blame this 495 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: on these these rat hunters not doing what they were 496 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. But also, I mean, of course 497 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: it's the government's job to oversee this program that they've created. 498 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: Their dollar is essentially feeding this, you know, um, this 499 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: workaround that they have not yet become wise to, right, 500 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: so you can get it's sort of a twofold problem 501 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, irresponsibility of people just not 502 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: thinking about the big picture and just wanting to get 503 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: that that that money, and also the government administering a 504 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: program that is just inherently ineffective. Would you guys save 505 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: roaches if the city you lived in gave you a bounty? Not? Yeah, 506 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not. It's one of the few animals 507 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm not a friend of. I respect them, and they 508 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: may well last beyond humanity, But I don't know. If 509 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: I want to keep a jar, it have to be 510 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: a high bounty, you know what I mean. You have 511 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: to be like that's insane. You could make you could 512 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: make a living doing that. You would breed roaches cobra effect. 513 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, as someone who's lived in a 514 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: house with a cockroach infestation, I mean, hey, you don't 515 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: need to breathe them. They just do that on their 516 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: own and be absolutely not early experienced enough of that 517 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,959 Speaker 1: that he's just scarred, all right. Man, So I'm hearing 518 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: that for Halloween, you're gonna be you wanna like become 519 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: the enemy? Do you want to become the cockroach? We 520 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: can get you one of those cool costumes with the arms. 521 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: How did you make that leap from what I said? 522 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, It's just it's a cool costume idea. 523 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: Tell you what, Tell you what. We'll put a pin 524 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: in it. We'll wait till we get closer to October. 525 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: See how you feel. Can we do with the horse 526 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: thing where like on the head of the cockroach and 527 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: you're you're like the feet of it. We're dodem but 528 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: we could. We'll work on something and will be able 529 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: to do so because we do not have bubonic plague. 530 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: At least two hundred and sixty three people died as 531 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: it was all too this nights, you know, six outbreak, 532 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: which is a relatively small number considering the types of 533 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: plagues that we've been you know, reading about and living 534 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: through of late. But still that's that's that's a lot. 535 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: That's a lot of human lives that could have been 536 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: saved if only this had been monitored a little more closely. Yeah, 537 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: and most of the people who died, at least that 538 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: we know of, were themselves actually actual Vietnamese people. Despite 539 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: this tragedy, Paul Domeo's reputation is repaired. He has returned 540 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: home to France and he becomes celebrated as quote the 541 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: most effective governor general evendo China date he went on 542 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: to become president. And Van has this wonderful observation, I 543 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: think we should you're reading full and also hat tipped 544 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: to our pals Atlas obscure for the US because they 545 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: pulled this excerpt, and I quite like it. It's sort 546 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: of a morality tale for the arrogance of modernity that 547 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: we put so much faith into science and reason and 548 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: using industry to solve every problem. This is the same 549 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: kind of mindset that lead to World War One, the 550 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: idea that the machine gun, because it kills so efficiently, 551 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: is going to lead to a quick war, and what 552 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: that actually led to is a long war where many 553 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: many people lost their lives. And he goes on to 554 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: talk about how the Great Hannoi Rat massacre is often 555 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: cited as an example of the Cobra effect, and the 556 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: Cobra effect as we've established an economic theory about how 557 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: incentives in a complex system can lead to unintended consequences. 558 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: And this sometimes gets inspires people to say, well, you 559 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: know what's bad. You know what's bad, right, any government 560 00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: intervention of any kind. But he says that misses the point. 561 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: He says, you have to make sure that you have 562 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: to make sure that people are taking honest looks at 563 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: the evidence around them instead of ignoring it. Uh. And 564 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: then he adds, this is one beautiful moment where let's 565 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: see noise said Dr Van was doing this research in 566 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: the nineties when you found that folder. This was as 567 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: he was searching through this file. Uh, this file cabinet 568 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: or excuse me, a card catalog a rat and real 569 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: quick over his hand while it was in the in 570 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: the drawer, which to him meant the French forces had 571 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: tried to kill all the rats. They tried to rule Vietnam. 572 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: They failed in both regards, but you know it's still 573 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: around the rats. The Bottomy sandwich. The Bottoy sandwich came 574 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: about as a result. Yeah, it's a good sandwich. There's 575 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: a great place called someone saying it perseveres to me. 576 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: That is the lasting legacy of this relationship, even if 577 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: the rest of it was an abject failure. You can 578 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: get like six for five a great place here called 579 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: Lee's Bakery. If you're if you're ever ever in Atlanta, 580 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: do visit Buford Highway. It is a tremendous gift to 581 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: the city. It's got some of the truly it's some 582 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: of the most amazing food. Man, So we have cobras 583 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: with rats, but we're not at the end of the story. 584 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: The Cobra Effect continues. In fact, this is the first 585 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: of a two part episode that we are going to do. 586 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: And you know, there's some stuff we could have maybe 587 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: glossed over. There's some stuff we didn't have to talk 588 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: about in as much depth, but we we off Mike 589 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: agree that there's stuff we don't want to skip. So 590 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: please please tune in later this week for part two 591 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: of the Cobra Effect, which takes us to the Great 592 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: Leap Forward under Mouse Dong in China. It's a which 593 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: I know is a particular area of fascination and expertise 594 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: in your wheelhouse, Ben, So I figured it made sense 595 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: to to keep this as its own episode. Plus it's 596 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: four pests, right, We're talking about four pests here, and 597 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about the organ Man. Do you 598 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:25,959 Speaker 1: guys remember those commercials where he's like a weird tune, like, yeah, 599 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: he was a cyborg. That was cool. That was like 600 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: some very high production value in those uh in those ads. 601 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I was impressed. So we'll get to 602 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: a wait, No, I was just doing Trojan man. I 603 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: was doing Trojans the same organ Man had had a 604 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: theme to he sure did. I'll have to figure that 605 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: out for next time. But yeah, so again we've got 606 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: mouse state tongues, four pests, disaster looming on the horizon, 607 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: which is just like even further escalation of the Cobra effect. 608 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: In the meantime, find us online can do that thing. Um. 609 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: We are Ridiculous History on Instagram and Facebook. You can 610 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: join the Ridiculous Historians group on Facebook if you wish. 611 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: You can find each of us, each of the three 612 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: of us, as individual human people um on the internet. 613 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: I am on Instagram exclusively at how now Noel Brown? 614 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: How about you, fellas If you would like a behind 615 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: the scenes peak at the things I am reading the 616 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: things I am researching my future secret projects that I 617 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: can't talk about just yet on air. Visit me on Twitter. 618 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: I'm at Ben bulland hs W shout out to the 619 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: listeners who participated in my riff on sanctions jokes. Stuff 620 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: like sanctions are getting crazier and crazier. It's only a 621 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: matter of time before Blockbuster Video releases a statement about 622 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: the status of membership cards in Russia. You can also 623 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram, where I am at Ben bullan 624 00:39:54,280 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: bo w l I N Mr Max Williams. Hey k 625 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: A the cobra No mongoose, right, Ricky Ticky taving all 626 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: that they hunt the moose, hunt the snake and the mongoose. 627 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: How come they didn't deploy any mongooses in that whole 628 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: O G cobra effects story. Are you gonna have the 629 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: whole deal? The mongoose is the natural enemy of the 630 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: of the cobra, Yeah, according to popularized by Richard Kipling, 631 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: for sure, but also the I think the British colonials 632 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: just really didn't know what they were doing in a 633 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: lot of general, lot of senses because they didn't imagine, 634 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 1: they didn't listen to the people who lived their thousands 635 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: thousands of years anyway, speaking of authorities, Mr Max Williams, 636 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: go on Twitter. I am on Twitter. You can find 637 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at at l Underscore Max Williams. You 638 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: can I'll see some of my other work that I'm 639 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: doing on my other show Ephemeral. You do that by 640 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: searching at ephemeral dot show. And thanks as always to 641 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: super producer Max Williams, Thanks to Casey Pegram who must 642 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 1: must must return soon, and thanks of course to our 643 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: favorite snake in the grass, the cobras, who are mongoose 644 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland a k a. The Quist confirmed by the 645 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: way the Internet says. Mongooses are known for their ability 646 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 1: to fight and kill venomous snakes, especially cobras. They're specialized 647 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: Achille colleen receptors render them immune to venom there like 648 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 1: the honey badger, while they're thick coats and quick speed, 649 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: also coming handy during conflicts. You think someone would have 650 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: told the Brits about this. We'll see you next time. 651 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 652 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 653 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.