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Speaker 1: Hello, Stuff you should know listeners, if you want to

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Speaker 1: come see s live, You've only got a couple of

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Speaker 1: more cities this year that still have tickets, and that

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Speaker 1: is Orlando in New Orleans. Yeah, we'll be in Orlando

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Speaker 1: on October nine at the Plaza Live, and we'll be

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans at the Civic Theater the following night

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Speaker 1: October and friends, like Chuck said, you better go get

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Speaker 1: your tickets. Go to s Y s K live dot

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Speaker 1: com for info and ticket links and everything you need

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Speaker 1: to come see us. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know,

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles W.

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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there. This is Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Should Know. Uh, the podcast and Chuck, I have

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Speaker 1: a question for you. You know it kicks me off

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Speaker 1: lime disease. I'm so mad at you blaming me for

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Speaker 1: that one. She's like, you should say this, and I said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I should totally say that. Uh. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This is sort of a follow up to our July

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten episode Why Ticks Suck, which in which

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Speaker 1: which is sort of a legendary episode because we uh

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Speaker 1: falsely promised to send people T shirts if they made

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Speaker 1: it all the way through the episode. We were just kidding,

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Speaker 1: but we still get those requests of where's my shirt? Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's hilarious. I forgot about that and also wants sued today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: probably so. Um. I also want to point out and

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Speaker 1: shout out our former website how Stuffworks dot com because

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Speaker 1: a couple of the articles that we used for much

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Speaker 1: of this episode is from the old hs W website. Nice.

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Speaker 1: They're holding it down over there, they're holding it down

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Speaker 1: and this is some good stuff. Yeah. So we're talking

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Speaker 1: today about lime disease in particular, not limes. No, we

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Speaker 1: should say it's capital l y m E disease. And

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Speaker 1: the reason it's called that is because it's named after

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Speaker 1: a town which is one of three towns where the

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Speaker 1: initial outbreak of lyme disease that led to this bacterial

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Speaker 1: infection persistent bacterial infection um was first uh described medically.

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Speaker 1: But what are the facts of the show? I think, Oh, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: who knew it was named after a town Lime, Connecticut?

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Speaker 1: I knew? Did you know that before this? Sure? Did

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Speaker 1: we cover that? And why tick suck? I don't think so,

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Speaker 1: all right, well you're smarter than me. That No, it's

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Speaker 1: not that. I think. What what got me was I

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Speaker 1: heard about people saying like, no, lyme disease, like people

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Speaker 1: take it for granted, but it's actually some really mysterious illness.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, what are you talking about? So I

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Speaker 1: think I looked into this year's back and that's what

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Speaker 1: I found out. All right, that was all. So we're

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Speaker 1: equally smart, right exactly. I'm not smarter than you, and

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Speaker 1: what it is smarts. It's just like someone happens to

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Speaker 1: know one thing, someone else knows another. Sure, I say,

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Speaker 1: they cancel out, we're all smart. There you go. I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you pulled that out because I would have been like,

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Speaker 1: what is smart? Uh? I couldn't have come up with

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Speaker 1: the definition so lyme disease. Um, We'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: hit you with a couple of stats here. Uh. Lyme

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Speaker 1: disease in the United States is more than doubled since nine.

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Speaker 1: That's astounding, it is, uh And it is spread too.

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Speaker 1: It used to be very much localized in kind of

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Speaker 1: the Northeast, sort of mid Atlantic areas, some in the South,

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Speaker 1: but now you can get lyme disease, and I believe

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Speaker 1: the entire lower forty eight is that correct? There there

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Speaker 1: are cases in all forty eight states. Supposedly half of

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Speaker 1: the counties in the United States now are considered at

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Speaker 1: high risk for lyme disease. And like all of this

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Speaker 1: happened just in the last like twenty or so years, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is I mean, there's there's a lot of debate

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Speaker 1: over the CDC calls lyme disease endemic, which is a

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Speaker 1: disease that has become a like an ongoing art of

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Speaker 1: an area or region, and some other people are saying, guys,

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Speaker 1: what what we're talking about here is an epidemic. This

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Speaker 1: is an epidemic, and you should start calling it that

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Speaker 1: because it will kind of raise the alarm to the

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Speaker 1: next level or two where it should be, because this

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Speaker 1: is a very alarming spread of disease that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: right now. Lime disease is the number one vector borne

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Speaker 1: disease in the United States. It's way more prevalent than

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Speaker 1: things like West Nile or chicken guna or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: but it's still kind of treated as like up there

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Speaker 1: in the northeastern US thing, and that's just not the case.

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Speaker 1: It's it's spread every in every direction except east because

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Speaker 1: it hit the Atlantic, but everywhere else where. It can

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Speaker 1: spread into the interior of the United States and up

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Speaker 1: into Canada. It's starting to Yeah, and there's also a

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Speaker 1: history continuing to this day even where lyme disease can

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Speaker 1: be UM, overlooked, misdiagnosed, UM, not taken as seriously by

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Speaker 1: your doctor as it should be UM, including what we'll

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Speaker 1: get too later on something called post treatment lime disease syndrome. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's all very frustrating if you have been a

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Speaker 1: an individual that has had lime disease. There's a big

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Speaker 1: community out there. People they're like, why woult anyone listen

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Speaker 1: to us? Why won't our doctors take us seriously? And

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Speaker 1: what do we have to do here? Like do we

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Speaker 1: have to start dropping dead? Yeah, there's a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of frustration in in that community because that there's this

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Speaker 1: sentiment among the medical establishment that you know, take some antibiotics. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to cure lime disease. Here's some antibiotics. You

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Speaker 1: still have persistent symptoms because are probably in your head.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to say there in your head, but

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Speaker 1: they're in your head and the people who are experiencing

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Speaker 1: these symptoms are like, no, my life has has been

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Speaker 1: derailed by these symptoms and you guys aren't doing anything

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Speaker 1: about it. It's frustrating. I know there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people out there that are pretty pretty stoked right now

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Speaker 1: to be hearing this. Yeah, you know, we're advocating for

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Speaker 1: you guys, not patting myself on the back, although I

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Speaker 1: am literally patty like I see you chuck here. That

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Speaker 1: elbow is sticking out pretty far. So. Lime disease is

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Speaker 1: a disease. It's an infection caused by the bacterium uh

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Speaker 1: bore leah burg door ferry wow borg de ferry, burg

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Speaker 1: de ferry. We're gonna get you an apron and call

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Speaker 1: you the word butcher burg door fairy work, work, work,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to why it's called that in a bit.

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Speaker 1: But if you haven't caught on by now, it is

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Speaker 1: transmitted through tick bites, right, So, a tick, and in

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Speaker 1: particular a nymph stage of a tick, which is a

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Speaker 1: like young adul or juvenile tick um, will transmit this bacteria,

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Speaker 1: the Borelia burg door ferry um, into a human. And

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Speaker 1: the reason we usually get it from nymph's chuck is

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Speaker 1: because an adult tick doesn't find humans particularly appetizing, but

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Speaker 1: a nymph tick will because they're stupid. They don't know

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Speaker 1: anything yet. So as they're feeding on us. After somewhere

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Speaker 1: maybe around twenty four to thirty six hours of feeding,

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Speaker 1: this infected tick that has this bacteria in the bacteria

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Speaker 1: will make its way from the mid gut to the

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Speaker 1: tick saliva, and the tick transmitted transmits it into the

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Speaker 1: human blood stream where it's just absolutely reeks havoc on

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Speaker 1: the human body. Yeah, and you said something really key

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Speaker 1: there hours later, really really important. They have to be

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Speaker 1: attached to you for that long, sometimes even longer to

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Speaker 1: transmit this bacterium. So if you find a tick on

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Speaker 1: you and you get it off, you don't need to

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Speaker 1: sweat lime disease. No, if you get it off in

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Speaker 1: due time, right exactly, I feel like you see it's

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Speaker 1: still crawling on you. It's unattached. You don't worry about

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Speaker 1: it at all. Um, But when it is attached, and

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Speaker 1: when when it when it has transmitted the bacteria. What

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Speaker 1: it's transmitted. This b burg door ferry is like really

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Speaker 1: amazing at its job, which is infecting you, giving you

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Speaker 1: a bacterial infection. Um, it has figured out how to

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Speaker 1: zoom through the bloodstream but then also take itself out

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Speaker 1: of the bloodstream by latching onto the cell the walls

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Speaker 1: of your blood vessels. Yeah, this was crazy about the

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Speaker 1: cellular stuff that once it's attached to a cell. They said,

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Speaker 1: it's like a slinky. It doesn't let go. It just

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Speaker 1: like basically reaches out and grabs the next cell without

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Speaker 1: letting go of the previous cell and just sort of

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Speaker 1: walks end over end, never unattaching itself right exactly. So Um,

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Speaker 1: as it's moving along, it's never it's not going to

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Speaker 1: get kind of you know, washed away in the extracellular matrix.

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Speaker 1: It's stuck to the cell. If it wants to be

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Speaker 1: stuck to the cell, it can do the same thing

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Speaker 1: to the blood vessel walls to pull itself out of

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Speaker 1: the blood stream and then go attack you know, specific

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Speaker 1: parts of the body. So it's really good at hanging on.

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Speaker 1: That's one thing that makes it kind of pernicious and

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Speaker 1: like another thing exactly, it's basically yeah, it's like the

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Speaker 1: bacteria version of a tick. I didn't think about that, um.

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Speaker 1: And then another thing does Chuck, I think this is

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Speaker 1: really really recent research. It can actually change its protein

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Speaker 1: expression at a much faster rate than the normal mutation

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Speaker 1: rate for bacteria, something like fifteen times faster. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: what that does is that just makes it really hard

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Speaker 1: for our human immune system to catch up to it, right,

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Speaker 1: because our immune system will produce antibodies based on the

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Speaker 1: initial infection. But by the time the antibodies come around

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Speaker 1: the um this, the bacteria may have changed the itself

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Speaker 1: so that the antibodies won't recognize so they'll just go

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Speaker 1: right past it because it doesn't it doesn't fit the

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Speaker 1: description that the antibodies have. That's right, And you'll know

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Speaker 1: that something's bad is happening. First of all if you

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Speaker 1: find that tick. But if you get headaches, fever, fatigue

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Speaker 1: is a huge, huge symptom. But the real tell tale

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Speaker 1: is what's called e m It's an expanding skin rash

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Speaker 1: called er athema migrants and it like, uh, it's that

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Speaker 1: circular pattern. And then we did talk about this on

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Speaker 1: the Ticks episode. But it's a circular pattern with a

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Speaker 1: what looks like a bull's eye in the center of it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and you can take off your butcher's apron now because

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Speaker 1: you just that was beautiful. Put on your chef's chef's hat.

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Speaker 1: You're sweating over there. So, UM, that that particular rash,

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Speaker 1: that bull's eye rash, that is like just an absolute

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Speaker 1: telltale sign that you have a lime boreolis bo bore

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Speaker 1: uh boreliosis infection. UM. That only comes around and like

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Speaker 1: maybe se cases. I think if every if every person

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Speaker 1: got that rash, we would not have this this problem

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Speaker 1: with lime disease because it would be caught very quickly

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Speaker 1: because you get that within usually about a week or

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Speaker 1: less of getting infected. But it doesn't come up in

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Speaker 1: all cases. And um with some of those other symptoms

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Speaker 1: like you said, like weakness, headaches, UM, flu symptoms like

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Speaker 1: those could be a lot of different other things, joint pain, um.

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Speaker 1: And so the lime disease infection goes undiagnosed or misdiagnosed

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, are did for many, many years.

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Speaker 1: It's just now that they're starting to kind of recognize

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Speaker 1: it or suspect lime when otherwise they might not have.

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Speaker 1: I mean literally hundreds of things can be can have

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Speaker 1: the same symptoms as lime disease. So lime has been

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Speaker 1: around for a long time. UM, we'll talk about the

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Speaker 1: history here in a minute, as far as the nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies go and official recognition, but it's been around, I believe.

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Speaker 1: The Yale School of Public Health find the bacterium and

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Speaker 1: ancient North America like sixty thousand years old before the

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Speaker 1: arrival arrival of humans. Uh, they have an autopsy of

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Speaker 1: a fifty three hundred year old mummy that had lime disease. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know Ootsy the ice Man, remember him, Remember Brutcy. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was disappointed that they referred to him as a

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Speaker 1: fifty year old ummy. It's like, no, it's Ootsy that

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Speaker 1: I and everybody knows him, give his name, but he

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Speaker 1: had lime disease. He did. And there was a German

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Speaker 1: physician named Alfred buck Wald who described this that e

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Speaker 1: M skin rash that we now call lime disease about

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Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty years ago. Right, So, so lime

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Speaker 1: disease has been around a while, but we are just

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Speaker 1: now seeing a huge again, an epidemic of it um

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Speaker 1: and in a massive spread of it not just in

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Speaker 1: North America, but there's also two other kinds of ticks

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Speaker 1: that transmit to other kinds of lime causing bacteria in

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Speaker 1: Europe and Asia and in all three places North America,

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Speaker 1: Europe and parts of Asia. Um, the incidents of lyme

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Speaker 1: disease is picking up at an alarming pace. I think

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Speaker 1: we should slow down our pace, take a break. We'll

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Speaker 1: come back and we'll talk about Lime, Connecticut right after this. Alright, So, Lime, Connecticut,

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Speaker 1: something is very old hat to you branded about it

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Speaker 1: for years Lime, Old Lime. And what was the third town?

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Speaker 1: I don't remember. No, let's just call it a new Lime.

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Speaker 1: It was not. They're gonna be so mad. They're high

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Speaker 1: school football team is gonna go berserk on Old Lime

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Speaker 1: this year in the es. So there were a group

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Speaker 1: of children and adults in these towns in Connecticut that

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Speaker 1: we're having all these weird symptoms, uh, swollen knees, skin rashes, headaches,

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Speaker 1: all this severe fatigue. And it's bad enough these days.

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Speaker 1: But in the early nineteen seventies, doctors were definitely did

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Speaker 1: not have this on the radar. And we're very dismissive

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Speaker 1: of what was going on in these towns. And if

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Speaker 1: it were not for the work of Judith Minch and

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Speaker 1: Polly Murray to just regular moms. Although Polly Murray did

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Speaker 1: work for the World Health Organization for a while they

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00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: were advocates, they were patient advocates because their families were

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Speaker 1: getting sick and no one would listen. And they were like,

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Speaker 1: someone's got to do something. Something's going on here, and

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Speaker 1: these doctors are not being any help. And it was

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Speaker 1: a big deal. Polly Murray ended up writing a book

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Speaker 1: she made it sort of her life's work, called The

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Speaker 1: Widening Circle. And because of sort of the persistent sexism

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Speaker 1: and science, they were largely discounted, even though they had

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Speaker 1: a list of thirty seven individuals they researched on their

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Speaker 1: own contacted scientists. Uh, I just we just really need

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Speaker 1: to shout them out. Poly Murray died just about a

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Speaker 1: month ago at the age that right. Yeah, she was

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Speaker 1: a persistent cuss as they call him up in the

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Speaker 1: Yankee States. So um, On the one hand, yes, from

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Speaker 1: the everything I've read and all the impressions I have,

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Speaker 1: they were very much dismissed and it was very much sexist,

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Speaker 1: and also I think because they weren't doctors. But on

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Speaker 1: the on the other hand, the doctors who were being

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Speaker 1: presented with these cases were like, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: what this is, so let's just pretend it's not real.

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Speaker 1: But Luckily those two women in the groups that they established,

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Speaker 1: they went on and they contacted Yale Medical School, they

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00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: contacted the state, and they really kind of put this

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Speaker 1: on the map. But they said, there is a mysterious

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Speaker 1: epidemic that's going on where you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: kids who suddenly have juvenile arthritis out of nowhere. What

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Speaker 1: are you guys gonna do about it? And because of

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Speaker 1: their agitation, this mystery made its way to the desk

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Speaker 1: or I guess, the microscope of a guy named Willie

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Speaker 1: um Burgdorfer, and he was at the time the world's

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Speaker 1: foremost authority on what's called Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which

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00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: is another tickborn bacterial infection. Remember that when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, that was a big news item. It was

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Speaker 1: he was working out in Colorado, and Colorado was ground

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Speaker 1: zero for Rocky Mountain spotted fever for a while. UM,

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Speaker 1: which is, yeah, you do not want to have that.

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Speaker 1: It's a really bad bacterial infection. But by this time

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Speaker 1: they had done thanks to the legwork UM done by

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Speaker 1: the moms and the patient advocate groups in Lime, Connecticut, UM,

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Speaker 1: it had been pretty well established that the common thread

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Speaker 1: between all these people besides the where they lived. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, it was um Chuck Lime old Liman,

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Speaker 1: East had him, sorry, East had him Um. Aside from

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Speaker 1: the fact that they all lived in the same region,

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Speaker 1: was that all of them were almost all of them

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Speaker 1: were called being bitten by a tick, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them had a mysterious rash right before the symptoms presented.

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Speaker 1: So it came to this guy, Willie um Bergdorfer's microscope

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00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: because they had said, there's something in the ticks here

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Speaker 1: that is creating this disease that we haven't encountered before.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and he had already discovered this bacterium h

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00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 1: called it. How do you how do you pronounce that

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Speaker 1: spirit chet, spire key sparke. But the spiro keet is

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Speaker 1: a type of bacteria and that's what give me the apron.

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Speaker 1: They all right, spiral chet and you just made me

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00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 1: think of the older brother Chet and weird science. Now

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00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 1: go make yourself one. But wad Man, that guy had

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Speaker 1: some good quotes. Yeah, r I P What what Bill

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00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: Paxton when, oh he died a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: Very sad? Are you sure you thinking of Bill Pullman? No,

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Speaker 1: Bill Paxston died. It was so sad because I had

300
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,400
Speaker 1: just listened to his Mark Marin interview and he was like,

301
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,439
Speaker 1: after that episode, I wanted nothing more than to be

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00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,199
Speaker 1: Bill Paxton's friend and neighbor. And he just sounded like

303
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 1: the best guy and best family man. And he passed

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00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 1: away way too early. Yeah, really, I did not know

305
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: about that. I saw a Frailty not too many weeks ago.

306
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: It's still pretty good. Was it the first viewing er? No? No, no,

307
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 1: I've seen it before, but yeah, great movie. Yeah. But

308
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,040
Speaker 1: he wrote and I believe directed and starred in it. Yeah,

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00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,000
Speaker 1: it was so good and I love a good Powers

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00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 1: Booth cast and call for sure it was. It was

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00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 1: unusual and surprising, but it wasn't perfect. Very good underrated film.

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Speaker 1: Where are we? Oh? Yeah, we were talking about Rocky

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Speaker 1: mont and spotted fever. Willie Berg door for identifying the

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Speaker 1: spiral keet um that was causing right, spiral check dumb dumb? No,

315
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Speaker 1: remember we established were all smart. He Yeah, so he

316
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: discovered this, uh, this Paara keet and he was honored, uh,

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Speaker 1: this discovery and naming that thing after himself. That's why

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Speaker 1: has that interesting name. I get the impression he didn't

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00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 1: name it after himself. They named it after him. Go on, okay,

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Speaker 1: but there's a big difference between him saying this thing

321
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Speaker 1: is called the burg door fury bacteria and somebody saying

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Speaker 1: we're going to name this after you. I totally agree. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So burg door fury or burg doorfur. He figures out

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Speaker 1: what is the basis of lyme disease, which is great.

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00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 1: That's an enormous breakthrough. It establishes that yes, it is

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Speaker 1: its own thing, it's its own disease. And because it

327
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Speaker 1: was a bacteria, it's a spira key, which again it's

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Speaker 1: a kind of a snakelike shaped bacteria specific kind that

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00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 1: walks like a slinky um. Because it was a bacterial infection,

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Speaker 1: the medical establishment said, oh, we got this. Here, take

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Speaker 1: some antibiotics and over you know, the course of several years,

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Speaker 1: starting in I think the nineties, is when they really

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00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 1: started to say, okay, ay, we can cure lyme disease,

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00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: especially if we catch it early on um by a

335
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: two to four week round of antibiotics. Here you go,

336
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 1: and they said case closed, were the medical establishment. Let's

337
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: go have a party for ourselves. Yeah, and here's the thing,

338
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: like many times, that can take care of the problem.

339
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 1: So it's not like they were just lazy and not

340
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: doing their work. But I think they closed the book

341
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: a little too soon, and a lot of people do

342
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 1: because that that oral that round of oral antibiotics. Um,

343
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: if you catch it early, it can really work. But

344
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 1: and I think they say, what like nine times out

345
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: of ten, if you catch it early, then that will

346
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: that will work right there. So they're so persistent with

347
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: that assertion that if you find a tick on yourself

348
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 1: and you live in an area where lyme disease is

349
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: known to thrive, um, if you can't say how long

350
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 1: that tick's been on you, they're probably just going to

351
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: give you a round of antibiotics and lactically. Yeah, and

352
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 1: and and again, like you said, in a lot of cases,

353
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Speaker 1: and I believe, from what I've read, the vast majority

354
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: of cases in early stage lime disease, that round of

355
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 1: antibiotics should work. Yeah. And they say that if you

356
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 1: and this is from the American Lime dias Is Foundation,

357
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: uh quote, if you live in in endemic area, have

358
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: symptoms consistent with early lyme disease, and suspect recent exposure

359
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: to a tick, present your suspicion to your doctor. So

360
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 1: that he or she may make a more informed diagnosis.

361
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: So show up to your doctor and say, yeah, madam sir,

362
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 1: I would love to present my suspicions to you. Please

363
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 1: sit down. Well, they're saying sort of, still, you still

364
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: sort of need to be your own advocate because it

365
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: is so hard to diagnose still, because if you're going

366
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: on symptoms alone, like we said, there are hundreds of

367
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: things that share those symptoms and lime disease may not

368
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: be the first thing they think of. That's a huge

369
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: problem with lime disease. Another huge problem is that the

370
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: test we use to test for line disease doesn't actually

371
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: test for the b burg door free um bacteria. It

372
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 1: tests for the antibodies that should be present in your

373
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: blood stream if you have a bacterial infection, not even

374
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 1: specific to that one, but a bacterial infection. The problem

375
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: is it takes days, if not maybe a week or

376
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: two before your body mounts an effective immune response against

377
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: this infection. So if you find a tick and they

378
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: give you a test, say within the first couple of days,

379
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: it's gonna come back negative, even though you very much

380
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: have a burg door free um infection, it's gonna come

381
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: back negative because it's the antibodies haven't been created yet.

382
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 1: The other part of the problem is even if you

383
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: take a blood test that tests directly for the burg

384
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: Door free bacterium, it moves out of the blood stream

385
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: really easily and within several days. So there's a very

386
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: brief window of time where you can directly test for

387
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: the burg Door free um bacteria and find it in

388
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: a simple a blood test. Yeah, you can also get

389
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: false positives. Uh. And they're advocating now for two tiered

390
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: testing for confirmation of the diagnosis. So if you get

391
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: that first positive test, uh, sometimes now you'll get a

392
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 1: different test, a Western blot test that's gonna really get

393
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: more specific to that antibody, not just the general antibodies. Right.

394
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: So part of the other problem is the a lot

395
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: what the reason a lot of patient activists and patient

396
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: advocate groups say no, doctors, you're wrong, like this is

397
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: not good enough, is that there's a sneaking suspicion among

398
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: people who have what's called chronic lime or post treatment

399
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: lime disease syndrome, is that the round of antibiotics, the

400
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: two to four week round of antibiotics that seemingly cured

401
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: the lime disease symptoms that you had actually failed to

402
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: fully knock out the bacteria that created this infection. This

403
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: created this lime disease in the first place, that it

404
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: just burrowed further into your body. And because the medical

405
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: establishment said we got it, it's fine, You're these antibiotics

406
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: cured it and didn't go deeper. Um that that bacterial

407
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: infection is allowed to fester and then present in worse

408
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: ways later. Yeah, and it's a really big deal because

409
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: you know what will happen is they'll say, you're cured.

410
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: We gave these antibiotics. They worked. But weeks and months

411
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 1: and even years later, when people have persistent fatigue and

412
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: muscle aches and headaches and you know, like your knee

413
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: joints hurt, they said, like a brain fog can happen.

414
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: And these are all things that are I don't want

415
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: to say generic, but if you walk into your doctor

416
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: and say I feel like I'm fuzzy and have a

417
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: brain fog and get headaches and I'm tired, Uh, it's

418
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: sort of a wide it's hard to pinpoint what's going

419
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: on and there and they think you're cured of the

420
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: lime disease. So that's where some of the more dismissive

421
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: um at least from the lyme disease community. They're saying like,

422
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: I have this chronic issue, and they're saying, but no,

423
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: there's no such thing. It's a chronic issue, right. Well,

424
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 1: they're also saying like, look, we gave you a test

425
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: for lyme disease and you came back negative. You know,

426
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: we know you had it before we tested you. We

427
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: came back positive, we treated with antibiotics. Now we've tested

428
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: you again and it's coming back negative. You don't have

429
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: lyme disease anymore. So there's a huge debate whether they're

430
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: the antibiotic course is not enough and that the lime

431
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: disease is persisting elsewhere in the body, and that maybe

432
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: it's changed its form so that it won't show up

433
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: on the tests like it should, or um there's remnants

434
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: of it. I saw one one article that suggested that

435
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: the cell wall from the spial keet the brig door

436
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: free spiro key can remain even after the things dead

437
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: and persistent like joint tissue and cause an immune response there,

438
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: which would explain this long term arthritis is like a

439
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: post treatment lyme disease syndromes emptem um or is it

440
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: that it converts into an entirely different disease, like an

441
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: autoimmune disorder. Yeah. Some people think that it could trigger

442
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: an autoimmune response and the infection is gone, and this

443
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: is what's happening later on? Is uh, Is you have

444
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: this autoimmune response, it can lead to other things like

445
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: rheumatic heart disease. I think we do we cover Gian

446
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: Bear syndrome or just talk about it in different episodes.

447
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: We've talked about it, and I think, if I remember correctly,

448
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: is g a bar a GiB? I'm pretty sure. Yeah,

449
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: we could both be wearing the apron for this one, though.

450
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: We'll split it up. I get the half, all right,

451
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: I get the top half on Porky pig in it

452
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: all right. I'm gonna just cover my bits down there. Uh.

453
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: But regardless of of what's happening, what people know is

454
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: is that they don't feel right, and it's extremely frustrating

455
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: to to feel these symptoms months and years later and

456
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: not be taken seriously in the doctor's office. Yeah. So

457
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: a lot of people are saying that we should we

458
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: these This course of antibiotics shouldn't be two to four weeks,

459
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: it should be many months because you really need to

460
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: get all of the spiral keyed out of there or

461
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: else it's going to persist and you're going to have

462
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: big problems. And then the medical establishment is saying like this,

463
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: what you're talking about doesn't even exist. So there's a

464
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: lot of frustration, Like you're saying, a big disconnect, and

465
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: this is something that is probably going to keep playing out,

466
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: although it seems like it maybe on its way out

467
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: because of the epidemic proportions lime is taking now in

468
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, I mean, the statistics are mounting

469
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: up such that it can't be ignored any longer. Not

470
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: that it was ignored, but you know, that's probably a

471
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: harsh statement, but it's being taken way more seriously now. Yeah,

472
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: that's something like there's an expectation that there's going to

473
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: be something like three hundred to four hundred thousand new

474
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: cases of lime disease in the United States alone, and

475
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: that tend to of those patients will end up with

476
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: chronic lime disease. Yeah. I mean, I spend a fair

477
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: amount of time hiking around the woods with my dogs

478
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: and have pulled plenty of ticks off of them, and

479
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: plenty of ticks off of myself and I have fatigue

480
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: a lot because I have a four year old and

481
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: every now and then I'm like, I have lime disease. Well,

482
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: probably not, and here's why. Well, I've never had the

483
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: bull's eye. First of all, okay, that's a big one.

484
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: But also the ticks you pull off of your dog,

485
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: those are dog ticks. They do not transmit lime. It's

486
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: specifically the long lay or black legged tick, which is

487
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: a type of dear tick. Well, but here's the thing.

488
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: There are plenty of deer ticks in the woods. Are

489
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: you saying that they if they would not latch onto

490
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: a dog, and they'd be like, oh, no, I don't know.

491
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, because there's deer ticks all over the woods. Sure,

492
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: there definitely are. Um, I don't know if if dear

493
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: ticks will latch onto a dog. That's entirely possible they

494
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: won't since there's such a differentiation between dog ticks and

495
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: deer ticks. But I do know that dog ticks don't

496
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: transmit lime. Well, I think we should talk about My

497
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: favorite thing from the Ticks episode, and this is when

498
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: I will lay on people from time to time, is

499
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: remember how ticks attached themselves They just hang out on

500
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: blades of grass and things and just snap their little

501
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: claws constantly, just waiting for something to pass by. Right,

502
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: they since the CEO two and of the mammal that's

503
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: walking past, so interesting and Chuck. One thing I read

504
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: is that somehow the lime lime infected ticks because they're

505
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: infected themselves. Lime resides as in like small mammals and

506
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: rodents as a reservoir. They're infected, but they don't have symptoms.

507
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: Ticks get infected with this stuff and they're just passing

508
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: it along. It's not like they're the ultimate source of

509
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: of lime disease. Ticks are misunderstood. They're really great, right,

510
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: But from what I saw, the ticks that are infected

511
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: with the line bacteria are actually better finding hosts than

512
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: non infected ticks. Like it's somehow enables them to be

513
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: better parasites. It's interesting. Yeah, that sounds familiar. Did we

514
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: cover that or do I just know that because I don't,

515
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't remember, but I do. I remember you talking

516
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: about in the Ticks episode about how they wave their

517
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: arms in the airway somebody passed by, and I remember

518
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: one of our listeners made some art of that we

519
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: gotta find it, that's right, and from snapping their little

520
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: fingers on a blade of grass to my dogs, but

521
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: to my scrotum, it's quite a it's quite a ride.

522
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: It's a wild ride. And then to Emily eventually plucking

523
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: that thing out for me, that's nice, gotta that's what

524
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: marriage is all about. Folks. Yeah, you just have your

525
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: forearm thrust across your eyes. You're like, get it out,

526
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: get it out. Uh. So let's take another break. Okay,

527
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about prevention, and then a

528
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: little bit about some very recent interesting, uh wacky things

529
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: going on in Congress about lime disease as a bioweapon. Okay, okay, Chuck,

530
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: you talked about prevention. How do you keep from having

531
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: to have a tick pulled from your crotch? Don't ever

532
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: go into mother nature. Just stay in your mid century

533
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: modern home with tiled floors, and don't go into the woods.

534
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: It sounds delicious. No, I love the woods. You love

535
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: the woods? Right? Yeah? Yeah, I love watching the woods

536
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: on television from your mid century house. No I do.

537
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: I love the woods myself. Yeah, I'm just getting get

538
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: in the woods. But um, they recommend things like deep

539
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't use that stuff on my own body. But

540
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: some people will say put that all over your body

541
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: and put it on your clothes and put it on

542
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: your socks and shoes and just walk around spraying a

543
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: cloud of it around you constantly while you're in the woods.

544
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: What I do is I just check for ticks. Yeah,

545
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: a good thing to do, seriously, it looks super dorky,

546
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: but what do you care is to tuck your pant

547
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: legs into your socks. Uh? When? When? And then when

548
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 1: you come out, like wear light colors too, because you

549
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: can see the ticks a lot more easily. And then

550
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: when you when you come out of the woods, Um,

551
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: take your clothes off and take a shower as soon

552
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: as you can, and just inspect yourself, Inspect your growing,

553
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: your armpits, your scalp. Part of the problem with lime

554
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: disease though, is remember you get it from TIMPs? Do

555
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: you get it from ticks in the nymph stage which

556
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: are really really small. So you've got to check really

557
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: really well to see, um, if you have that tick

558
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: on you. Yeah, and just while you're at it, take

559
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: off the adult tis as well. Yeah, don't just leave

560
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: those and check your dogs. You know you check your

561
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: dogs under their haunches, like on the armpit of their

562
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: legs whatever that's called their leg bits. Uh, check behind

563
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: their ears, check under their collars, because ticks are trying

564
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: to you know, they're not gonna hang out just like

565
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: on the top of their back. They may start there,

566
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: but they're going to try and find a place that's

567
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: dark and warm and out of out of view. Yeah.

568
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't mean to say you can't get lime disease

569
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: from an adult chuck. It's just that the nymphs are

570
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 1: far more likely to feed on a human than an

571
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: adult is. But a line infected adult tick will transmit

572
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: sure line to you too. Very important distinction. So now

573
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: we move on to the US Congress very recently, about

574
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: a month ago, and did July I think, Yeah, there

575
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: was a US House Rep named Chris Smith, Republican out

576
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: of New Jersey, who introduce legislation that said, hey, Department

577
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: of Defense, you should review these claims that I'm seeing

578
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: that our own Pentagon researched using ticks to spread lime

579
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: disease as a bioweapon in the mid twentieth century. I'm

580
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: reading a lot about this in books and articles that

581
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: we did research on Plumb Island and we we and

582
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: other insects too, not just ticks, of turning them into bioweapons.

583
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: And this thing passed. And a lot of this comes

584
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: from a book written by Chris Newby called Bitten Colon

585
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: The Secret History of Lime Disease and and Biological Weapons.

586
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 1: And this book, like I think Chris Smith, the representative

587
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: from New Jersey said, like this book really inspired me

588
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: to to take up this legislation. Um. But in the book,

589
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: Newby basically says, the government at Fort Dietrich, Maryland, and

590
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: I'm Plum Island, New York, before it was turned into

591
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: an animal disease research center, we're doing it was an

592
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: insect disease research they were they were looking into, um

593
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: well they've they definitely were doing biowarfare research there. Um

594
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: but and then Fort Dietrich into for however long if

595
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: they're not still doing it now, but them they were

596
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: apparently looking into ticks as delivery systems for biological weapons.

597
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: I couldn't find that that is actually verified, but I

598
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: find that highly believable. But what Nubia is saying is

599
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: they were doing that research and then the way we

600
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: got lime diseases. Whatever research they were coming up with escaped,

601
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: say a ticket attached to a bird that flew off

602
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: a plumb island and landed in the area around Lime, Connecticut.

603
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: And these ticks got off and they started to breed

604
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: and they they became endemic in this area. And that's

605
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: where lime disease came from. There was actually a biological

606
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: weapon that was produced and then inadvertently, probably not purposefully

607
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: released into the larger population in the northeast. Yeah. So

608
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: here's my question. I haven't read the book. Uh, but

609
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: are they saying that that that we created lime disease

610
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: or that we just weaponized it, because those are two

611
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: very different things. Yeah. I don't know what she's saying either,

612
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: And I think, um, she stopped short of saying that,

613
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: but that it's implied that if you put two and

614
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: two together, the government was looking into biological warfare and

615
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: they were talking about, um, you know, using ticks at

616
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: some point, and you know, it's really close to this

617
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: ground zero of where the tick epidemic began you put

618
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: two and two together. That's the impression I have is

619
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: that she didn't actually come out and say it, but

620
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: that she lets the readers surmise for themselves. Which is

621
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: the problem. Well, I mean that's very easy to disprove

622
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: if she's actually claiming that they created lime disease, because

623
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: we just got through saying it was in who was

624
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: the Mummy? It was aut ars Ago over in the Alps. Uh. Well, true,

625
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: but it also in the United States. I mean it

626
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: came around in the Uh we first discovered it in

627
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and like several different places. It wasn't just

628
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: lime Connecticut. They found it in California. And you can't

629
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: just that just it doesn't add up that it would

630
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: be popping up in all these random places if it

631
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: escaped from Long Island Sound in nineteen fifty three, right,

632
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: which I think somebody who subscribed to this conspiracy theory,

633
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: and that's very much what it is, is a conspiracy

634
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: theory that um, well, then the release wasn't purpose or accidental,

635
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: it was purposeful, and that they spread it around the

636
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: northeast California and then Spooner, Wisconsin, which supposedly is the

637
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: actual place where the first case of lyme disease was

638
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: described in the United States in nineteen sixty nine, about

639
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: six years before this cluster of juvenile arthritis cases popped

640
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: up in old lime lime in East HadOM. Well, it's

641
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: a very bad idea if that's what went on, because

642
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: you have to depend on a lot of things, which

643
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: is a these ticks definitely finding their way to uh

644
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: the enemy, be they attached to the enemy successfully and

645
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: transmit the disease. And then what does it transmit? A

646
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: very slow acting disease that will give people headaches and

647
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: fatigue over the course of a long time. Right, that

648
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: also produces a one of a kind telltale rash that

649
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: tells you, supposedly in plenty of time that you have

650
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: this um this disease that needs to be treated with

651
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: a simple course of oral antibiotics. Yeah, and it has

652
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: to be probably in the country. They're not. They don't

653
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: thrive well in the city. So it's just it doesn't

654
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: make a good biological weapon. No. And then again, people

655
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: who subscribed as a conspiracy theories say, well, they can't

656
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: all be winners. But maybe it was just something they

657
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: were experimented with and it wasn't very good. Trust me.

658
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: I mean, we've done enough research on stuff our American

659
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: government used to do and continue to do that it's

660
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: not the most outlandish thing in the world. No, it's not.

661
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: And that's also why Chris Smith, the representative from New Jersey,

662
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand, because it's entirely plausible.

663
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's not just a complete wacko idea. The

664
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: other reason Christmas shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand

665
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: is because he is a true lime warrior. He introduced

666
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: other legislation called the Tick Act, and of course he

667
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: had to make tick an acronism. That um an acronym,

668
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: not in an acronism for the ticks, Colon, Identify Control

669
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: and Knockout Act. He was really grasping like a tick

670
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: on a blade of grass with that one. But the

671
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: point is knockouts not one word unless he used his

672
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: knockout that's what he's saying. I guess because um. But

673
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 1: it would create an additional hundred and eighty million dollar

674
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: is in federal funding for lyme disease research, which was

675
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: sorely needed right now. That's awesome. I didn't know he

676
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: was such an advocate. That's good. He really is. He

677
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: hates lyme disease like like a lot. I was about

678
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: to say something, but I wish I could take a

679
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: pill that would bulk up my analogy region in my brain. Oh,

680
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: your analogies are great. What were you gonna say, I

681
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: want to know we can beep it up. I was

682
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: gonna get political. I was gonna say, he hates ticks

683
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: like he hates Okay, can we leave that and bleep it.

684
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll find out right. So, um, the

685
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: whole idea that it's a bioweapon almost certainly not the case, right,

686
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: but it makes for good press. I mean, like if

687
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: you look up like lyme disease and bioweapon. There is

688
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,959
Speaker 1: a lot of recent articles right now. It just because

689
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: a member of Congress introduced this legislation. What a lot

690
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: of people are all are saying is, look, it makes

691
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: sense like this conspiracy theory that people would go to that.

692
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: But on the same at the same time, there's another

693
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: really great explanation for it, and it's climate change that

694
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: this whole thing came about in the seventies, because we're

695
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: starting to see what was called, um, the first epidemic

696
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: from climate change. And there's this really great article on

697
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: a On, which is a great website by Marybeth Phifer

698
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: spells it like Michelle Phifer with the p called ticks rising,

699
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: and um, she's an investigative reporter, science journalist who really

700
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: went to a lot of troubles to explain how climate

701
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: change has created a new world for ticks and we

702
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: are now living in it. Yeah, I mean, in two

703
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, the e p A actually started to use

704
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: for new indicators about what's going on with climate change

705
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: and the impact, and one of them was the spread

706
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: of lime disease. So like the e p A officially

707
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: uses that as a factor uh in an indicator in

708
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: determining the impact of climate change now right, and so

709
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: the whole the whole basis of this idea is that

710
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: because of warmer weather, ticks are being killed off in

711
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: far fewer numbers from over the winter, so they're surviving

712
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: longer there. Um, as it it gets warmer and warmer,

713
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: higher and higher up their range is spreading rather rapidly.

714
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: And wherever these ticks go, lime disease is game to

715
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: go with them. So the spread of lyme disease is

716
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: increasing as the spread of ticks is increasing too, and

717
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: ticks have gotten totally out of hand in some areas.

718
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: In that same aon article, um Marybeth Pheiffer was talking

719
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: about how moose are dying in their thousands in like

720
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: Wisconsin and the Dakotas because they're being bled to death

721
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: by a hundred thousand ticks at once. It's amazing that

722
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: never happened before. And now all of a sudden, it's

723
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: kind of becoming routine because the ticks aren't dying off

724
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: in the winter like they're supposed to. And again it's

725
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: because of climate change. And then in the Northeast, Chuck,

726
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why there's been this explosion of

727
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: ticks is because there's been an explosion of deer to

728
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: support the tick population. Sure, back in the day, there

729
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: were things like mountain lions, and there were predators that

730
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: would help control the deer population. Wolves, wolves. They're even

731
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: suggesting reintroducing wolves to help control the deer population. Oh yeah,

732
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: you can bet that's going to happen. Really, no, I

733
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: mean do you think so? Yeah? Totally, Like a three

734
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: thousand people a year coming down with lime in the

735
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: United States, they're gonna start reintroducing wolves to combat if

736
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: it has even a half of a chance to be

737
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: interested to see if that happens, because humans are gonna

738
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: want to hunt those wolves. Yeah, you know, it just

739
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: brings it out on us for some reason. Huh. Well,

740
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: I mean they hunted the mountain lions, right, but I

741
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: think that's the idea of of oh wait a minute,

742
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: really weird and um circuit. As bad things happen when

743
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 1: we overhunt mountain lions and wolves, maybe when we reintroduce them,

744
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: we won't have to, you know, or we won't follow

745
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: that impulse, will just let nature take its course. Right.

746
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 1: Who knows you got anything else? Man? I got nothing else.

747
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: So there's a solution around of antibiotics and some wolves

748
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: that will cure what ails us. Yeah, advocate for yourself still,

749
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: people in the wolves persistent. That's good advice for everything.

750
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: Chuck agreed, Um, almost everything. There's certainly cases where persistence

751
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,959
Speaker 1: is not a good idea, but you know what I'm saying, right, Okay. Uh.

752
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about lyme disease, go

753
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: check out all of the articles there are to read.

754
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: And again, go check out the a on article by

755
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: Marybeth fight for it's really interesting. Um. And since I

756
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: said it's interesting, that means it's time for a listener mail.

757
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this neat story about how great stuff

758
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: he should know listeners are from Portland, Maine. Hey, guys,

759
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: my wife, daughter and I all stuff you show listeners

760
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: for years. Decided last minute to buy tickets to the

761
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: show while on vacation at Old Orchard Beach, Maine, just

762
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: a short drive south of Portland. We had nosebleed seats

763
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: naturally because we waited until just an hour before showtime. Uh.

764
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: And that was more than cool by us, and we

765
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: were totally stoked just to be there, whatever the seats.

766
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: When we got to our balcony seats, a friendly fellow

767
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: named Matt approached us, said he had three tickets for

768
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: orchestra seats and asked if we'd like them. The tickets

769
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: were intended for friends of his who were stuck in

770
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: labor day weekend traffic couldn't make it to the show.

771
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: Turns out he had been scouting the crowd for forty

772
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: minutes looking for a group of three even in listening

773
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: the help of the ushers to find three people together,

774
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: and we were the first group that he saw. Brief

775
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: walk downstairs and there we were three rows from the

776
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: stage for the supremely excellent show about podcast topic redacted.

777
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: Thanks to Matt and his friends being stuck in traffic.

778
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: We went from not having tickets an hour before showtime

779
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: to having third row ten minutes before you guys took stage.

780
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: We considered it a little piece of true magic. So

781
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: while I'm confident this lengthy set up and telling you

782
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: the story is way too long for the air, no,

783
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: not true, Richard Clark, the whole family would be for

784
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: ever grateful if you could give Matt and the Connecticut

785
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: groundskeeper a huge thank you from Rich Susan and Emily

786
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: and Upstate New York for sharing those seats with us.

787
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 1: That is fantastic. I love our shows, man, it's great.

788
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: People are so kind. And that is from Richard Clark,

789
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: not Dick Clark, but rich Clark. Oh that's even better.

790
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: Dick Clark's taken. That's right. Thank you for rich Clark

791
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: for recognizing that too. Yeah, thanks for coming to the show,

792
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: rich and bringing the family. And thank you Matt for

793
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: being such a cool dude. That was very nice of you.

794
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm utterly unsurprised because our fans are pretty great people. Yes, okay, Well,

795
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us, you

796
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: can go on to stuff you should know die com

797
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: and you can send us a tweet or insta post

798
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: or a comment or what have you, that kind of

799
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: thing because all of our social links are there. Or

800
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: you can just do it the old fashioned way and

801
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: send an email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

802
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: and send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeart radio

803
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

804
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

805
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

806
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: where ever you listen to your favorite shows.