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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, how about you, Paul?

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Speaker 2: I am doing really good.

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Speaker 1: Well. I'm excited to get to this story kind of

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Speaker 1: quickly because it's a story from a listener and I

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Speaker 1: love these kinds of stories. This comes from her family,

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Speaker 1: and her great grandmother was really invested in this family story,

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Speaker 1: and so she did a lot of research and then

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Speaker 1: a cousin picked it up and there's a lot that

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Speaker 1: she sent me which was wonderful, and Maren has been

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Speaker 1: able to use and I've been able to use to

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Speaker 1: put this packet together, and it made me think about

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Speaker 1: I know, we talk a lot about the people who

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Speaker 1: insert themselves into your cases, but there must be the

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Speaker 1: helpful people. Can you think of a case where a

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Speaker 1: lay person found something that was really helpful for you

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Speaker 1: and you just thought, well, thank goodness this person decided

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Speaker 1: to contact us, Otherwise we would be flummixed by this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, there's numerous examples. One that

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Speaker 2: just immediately comes to mind as a Golden State Killer.

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Speaker 2: There was a record phone call and there were some

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Speaker 2: background noises, and I spent so much time trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out what these background noises and voices were to

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Speaker 2: see if it gave me a clue as to who

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Speaker 2: the Golden State Killer was. Well, it turns out that

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Speaker 2: somebody in the online community was able to figure out now,

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Speaker 2: those background noises were just the Monday night movie of

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Speaker 2: the week, you know, on the victim side of the phone,

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Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the Golden State Killer's phone

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Speaker 2: call at all. And it was very helpful because now

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Speaker 2: I didn't have to spend any time on it. I

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Speaker 2: could move off of it knowing it didn't give me.

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Speaker 1: Any clues, so it wasn't direct information. Oh I have

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Speaker 1: ever heard this. It was more of like, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: I know you don't understand this, but I understand it.

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Speaker 1: Let me explain it to you. That was helpful for

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Speaker 1: you in that case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you have, and that's part of you know, when

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Speaker 2: you start crowdsourcing, you have people who have certain skill

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Speaker 2: sets and they can apply those skill sets and get

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Speaker 2: accurate information back to the investigators, and that can be helpful.

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Speaker 2: Obviously there are those that are trying to help, but

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Speaker 2: they're not so helpful. But it sounds like with this

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Speaker 2: family case that you're about to bring to me, it

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Speaker 2: sounds like there's going to be some significant investment that

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Speaker 2: this family has done over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know in Tenfold, I always involve the family.

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Speaker 1: You have to. I have to reach out to the family.

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Speaker 1: That's part of the story. And I talk about this

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Speaker 1: in my classes. Is you know, going to the family

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Speaker 1: and talking to the family and sort of getting permission

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Speaker 1: from a case that's two hundred years old even is

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Speaker 1: important for me when you're going as in depth as

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Speaker 1: I do on Tenfold More Wicked. So I love involving

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Speaker 1: the family, and I love a family that researches so

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Speaker 1: Maren was impressed with the amount of research that came

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Speaker 1: from our listener Jennifer Arnold, who was wonderful to reach

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Speaker 1: out about this. I just want to give a warning

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Speaker 1: to listeners here. No sexual assaults, thank goodness, in this episode.

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Speaker 1: But this does involve the murder of children, several children

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Speaker 1: in this story, which I know is really upsetting to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. So I just wanted to give

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Speaker 1: you a warning here before we proceed. Okay, let's set

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Speaker 1: the scene. This is nineteen oh two Homestead, Pennsylvania, which

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Speaker 1: is ten miles outside of Pittsburgh. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: ask if you've been to Homestead. I have not been

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Speaker 1: to Homestead, but I love Pennsylvania, so there's that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember flying into the Pittsburgh airport and then

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Speaker 2: driving to West Virginia. I think, you know, but that's

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Speaker 2: pretty much my extent of exposure to that area.

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Speaker 1: Well, this involves the Cawley family, and this stays all

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Speaker 1: within the family. So let me frame this by saying,

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Speaker 1: the maytriarch must have just been a strong woman. She's

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Speaker 1: in her early forties. Her name's Hannah Cawley. She was

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Speaker 1: recently widowed, so a year earlier her husband, Charles Senior,

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Speaker 1: died of an accidental drowning while he was working at

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Speaker 1: the local docks. And they have ten children together. So

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Speaker 1: this is kind of a rural area. They have a

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Speaker 1: six room house, multi level house that houses these ten people.

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Speaker 1: There's a woman named Ella who lives off the property.

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Speaker 1: She's the eldest child. We don't know how old she is,

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Speaker 1: but she's married and she lives off the property. Ella

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Speaker 1: Cawley is Jennifer, the woman who brought us the story.

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Speaker 1: This is her great grandmother. So she was not there

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Speaker 1: when this happened. This is how important this is to

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Speaker 1: this family, having that sort of involvement and kind of

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Speaker 1: finding out a little bit more some sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: some insight into what happened here. So she's recently widowed,

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Speaker 1: she's dealing with these ten kids. They're at home, and

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Speaker 1: it's nighttime. It's October ninth, nineteen oh two. Ella is

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Speaker 1: not living there. She's gone. Now let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: age range of everybody who's in this house. There is

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Speaker 1: a twenty one year old son, a seventeen year old son,

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old son, and then you've got a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old daughter, a ten year old daughter, six

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Speaker 1: year old twins, and a fifteen month old named Joseph. So,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, she must have given birth and then he

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Speaker 1: died a couple of months later, I guess, how awful.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a little girl named Mary who they

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Speaker 1: think was kind of toddler age. So that's a lot

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Speaker 1: to deal with in a six bedroom house kind of.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like in a rural area with no other

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Speaker 1: parent there to help. Already, this is not looking good

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Speaker 1: for Hannah unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no question, there's a lot going on. But you know,

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Speaker 2: having done you know, genealogy in casework and seeing you know,

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Speaker 2: this era of families, this is something that was common,

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Speaker 2: you know, where you have lots of kids, you've lost

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Speaker 2: a fair number of kids at a very young age,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes you know, the parents one parent, both parents

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Speaker 2: die young, leave one to have to care for, you know.

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Speaker 2: Now in this case, ten kids.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. It's in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: night and Hannah, the mother, and Belle are sleeping in

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Speaker 1: one bed. So I'm going to have to keep scrolling

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Speaker 1: up and down to find out how these people are.

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Speaker 1: She's thirteen, So Hannah and Belle, the thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: are sleeping in one bed. They're in a bedroom that's

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Speaker 1: at the far end of the home's second floor multi

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Speaker 1: level home. In the same room, Joseph, the little boy

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Speaker 1: is in his crib. He's fifteen months old, so this

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Speaker 1: must have been the one who was born just right

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Speaker 1: before his dad drowned. And then in the same room

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Speaker 1: of Joseph and Hannah and Bell is a separate bed

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Speaker 1: that has Agnes, Adeline and Raymond. So Agnes is ten

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Speaker 1: years old, Adeline is six and her twin brother, Raymond

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Speaker 1: is six obviously, so we've got a lot of people

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Speaker 1: sleeping in one room. So you've got Hannah and then Bell,

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Speaker 1: and then Joseph and then three other kids. The six

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Speaker 1: kids in one room, and in an adjoining room on

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Speaker 1: the same floor. On the second floor there are the

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Speaker 1: three big boys, Charles and Harry and James. James is

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Speaker 1: the twenty one year old, Charles is seventeen, and Harry

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Speaker 1: is fourteen. So that's where kind of every but he is.

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Speaker 1: At this point, between three am and four am of

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Speaker 1: what is now October tenth, someone walks down, gets into

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Speaker 1: the house, goes down to the basement, picks up an axe,

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Speaker 1: and goes back upstairs. So goes down into the basement,

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Speaker 1: accesses the basement, picks up an axe, and goes back upstairs. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so he enters the bedroom where Hannah and the youngest

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Speaker 1: siblings are all sleeping. And this is where things go

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Speaker 1: very bad and get pretty graphic. So this person has

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Speaker 1: the axe and he beats Hannah's head and the upper

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Speaker 1: part of her body until it's described as Jelly Bell,

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Speaker 1: who is a thirteen year old in the bed right

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Speaker 1: next to her mom, actually sleeps through the attack, but

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Speaker 1: when he notices Bell there after, he's clearly, you know,

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Speaker 1: beaten Hannah to death with an axe. He throws the

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Speaker 1: axe at the little girl, he misses, but it hits

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Speaker 1: the mattress and likely wakes her up. And then he

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Speaker 1: grabs the axe and he kills her. Ten fifteen twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty blows on a thirteen year old girl until the

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Speaker 1: bed sheets and the mattresses were completely soaked, and the

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Speaker 1: other kids do not appear to be moving right now,

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Speaker 1: like waking up. Maybe they're stunned, but this is brutal

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Speaker 1: onto people, you know, a little girl and a woman

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Speaker 1: in her forties in this bed.

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Speaker 2: I can visualize the scene quite clearly. It's interesting that

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Speaker 2: you have the detail that he threw the axe and

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Speaker 2: then killed Belle. That would be a tough detail to

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Speaker 2: reconstruct from you know, the crime scene, the physical evidence.

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Speaker 2: So now it sounds like there's a witness that observed this.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in a minute. He starts to

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Speaker 1: walk over to the little boy, Joseph, who's the fifteen

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Speaker 1: month old. He takes the axe and he hits Joseph

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Speaker 1: in the head, in the chest, but Joseph still seems

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Speaker 1: to be sort of breathing. When the walks away and

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Speaker 1: confronts the other three siblings, and it's notable that he's

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Speaker 1: not quite as brutal with Joseph and Adeline and Raymond,

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Speaker 1: the youngest ones. But he did kill them, the little

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Speaker 1: boy and then Agnes, Adeline and Raymond, the twins, but

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Speaker 1: he did not beat them beyond recognition like he did

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Speaker 1: with Hannah and Bell. I don't understand that. Does that

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Speaker 1: actually mean anything? I mean, he killed them, Does it

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Speaker 1: matter whether they were beaten beyond recognition?

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Speaker 2: Definitely matters. You know, this is where you start when

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Speaker 2: you get into this interpreting the offender's inner psychology. You

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Speaker 2: know that gets expressed in the actions at the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: And when I see a victim that has more violence

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Speaker 2: being inflicted, violence that is up and beyond necessary to kill,

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Speaker 2: that tends to suggest that there's a greater emotional angst

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Speaker 2: that that offender has to towards that particular victim. Now,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's in the sexual world, right, there's greater sexual

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Speaker 2: attraction and a need to commit greater violence towards that person,

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Speaker 2: But we're not talking that in this case, per your

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Speaker 2: disclaimer up front. So, now, with Hannah being so brutally killed, overkilled,

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Speaker 2: tends to suggest that the offender, and use the pronoun he.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to assume this is a male offender,

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Speaker 2: that this offender has a lot of angst, had a

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Speaker 2: lot of anks towards Hannah and took that out. This

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Speaker 2: is your classic anger retaliatory offender.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about who's in this household, because now

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Speaker 1: we have eliminated the mother and all of the younger children.

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Speaker 1: So who was left in the household is James who's

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Speaker 1: twenty one, Charles who's seventeen, and Harry who is fourteen.

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Speaker 1: All of the young kids and the mom are gone.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Why would you start

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Speaker 1: in the room with the people who present to me

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Speaker 1: the least amount of complications resistance. If this is a man,

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Speaker 1: and I have said he, If this is a man

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Speaker 1: who you know is trying to systematically eliminate people for

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Speaker 1: we don't know why yet in this family, why start

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Speaker 1: with the most vulnerable people first and leave behind a

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Speaker 1: twenty one year old, a seventeen year old and a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old boy.

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Speaker 2: I think there's there's multiple factors to consider. First, you've

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Speaker 2: got the adult female, Hannah, and Hannah with the brutality

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Speaker 2: of the violence, it seems to be a target. Plus

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Speaker 2: you have the dynamics of the number of small children

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Speaker 2: within the same room. That is something that a single

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Speaker 2: offender could rapidly lose control over. Imagine having three four

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Speaker 2: young kids all screaming, cry and running out. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's really something that the offender wouldn't want to have happen. Plus,

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Speaker 2: it has to do with the environment we're dealing on

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Speaker 2: the second floor of this house. Hannah and these younger

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Speaker 2: kids and Belle are on the extreme side of the house, right,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe the offender is assessing going I'm confident

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Speaker 2: I can go all the way over to that bedroom

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Speaker 2: and carry out this attack with an axe and not

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Speaker 2: alert the three older boys that are in their bedroom.

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Speaker 2: So he's making sort of a tactical assessment and deciding

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Speaker 2: that would be the best course of action. Now, Hannah,

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Speaker 2: being an adult, is a somewhat of a physical threat.

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Speaker 2: But you have the three boys, a twenty one year

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Speaker 2: old and a seventeen year old basically, you know they're

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Speaker 2: they're in essence, you know, young men, and then you

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Speaker 2: have the fourteen year old and I don't know how

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Speaker 2: you know big these these boys are. You know, you'd think, well,

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Speaker 2: these are the three people that possibly could cause you

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Speaker 2: the most physical harm if they're alerted to your presence

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Speaker 2: before you're ready for them. But it does sound like

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Speaker 2: he's got a target with Hannah, and he's making a

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Speaker 2: tactical assessment based on the layout of where everybody's at

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Speaker 2: on the second floor of this house.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about access, because the access is confusing.

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Speaker 1: In this time period. In a rural area, they are

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Speaker 1: very unlikely to have locks on their doors. We did

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Speaker 1: not have locks on our farmhouse door until I think

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Speaker 1: five years ago.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, Good god, you guys were a little

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Speaker 2: slow to the party on that one.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we were late to the party, but honestly, we

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Speaker 1: were on such a big ranch. It's like it would

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Speaker 1: be we have locked gates, but we did not have

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Speaker 1: locked houses. So I think would be very easy for

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Speaker 1: someone to come into this house if they know the

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Speaker 1: layout of the house. But to go down to the

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Speaker 1: basement and know that there will be an axe there,

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Speaker 1: I guess in nineteen oh five is a pretty good assumption.

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Speaker 1: But what about the person who doesn't bring the weapon

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Speaker 1: with him and who slaughters people like this? You have

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Speaker 1: the Idaho murder suspect who police alleged brought a weapon

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Speaker 1: with him, But what about the found weapon. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make It makes no sense to me.

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Speaker 2: You can go into any house and find a weapon.

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Speaker 2: So the offender he's going down to the basement. He

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Speaker 2: may have known that there was an axe there, you know,

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Speaker 2: and if he did, that tells me something about who

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Speaker 2: the offender might be. However, may have gone down to

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Speaker 2: the basement because this is typically where I would assume

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Speaker 2: on this type of house, this is where the tools

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Speaker 2: would be, like the hammers, you know, various potential weapons

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Speaker 2: would be down there. And chose to use the as

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Speaker 2: you So, right now, we don't know what the offender's

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Speaker 2: intent was, but it seems like, yes, the offender is

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Speaker 2: going into the house, assuming that this is not somebody

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Speaker 2: from was already in the house. But the offender is

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Speaker 2: entering that house and knows that there will be an

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Speaker 2: object that that offender will be able to use. The

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Speaker 2: offender also, while entering the house, has to be cognizant

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Speaker 2: that an entire family is asleep, and so whow going

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Speaker 2: through the house to try to find a weapon elevates

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Speaker 2: that offender's risk spending more time in there. But this

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Speaker 2: is common in terms of offenders not bringing weapons with them. Wow,

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Speaker 2: so you think I often You know, go back to

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Speaker 2: Golden State killer Jodangelo. You know he would use knives

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Speaker 2: out of the kitchen drawers. You know he would use

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Speaker 2: shoelaces from the victim's own shoes as binding material. You

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Speaker 2: can get the implements of the crime within any house.

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Speaker 1: We're going to move over to the boy's bedroom and James,

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Speaker 1: who is the twenty one year old, is asleep and

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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old boy, Harry, is next to him.

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Speaker 1: He starts to hear moans. James hears groans from the

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Speaker 1: other bedroom. We presume probably it could be Joseph, the

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Speaker 1: little boy, could be you know, Hannah dying, any of

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Speaker 1: the kids. We don't know. And he starts to get up.

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Speaker 1: He wants to know where everybody is at this point,

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Speaker 1: and he's alarmed because it could be Charles, it could

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Speaker 1: be anybody. He he gits up and he looks in

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Speaker 1: the doorway and he is struck by what he says

303
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Speaker 1: is the worst image he's seen in his life, which

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Speaker 1: is his brother Charles, covered head to toe in blood.

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Speaker 1: Not his blood. He's holding the axe. Oh, so we

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Speaker 1: have a seventeen year old boy who took an axe

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Speaker 1: and murdered all of his younger siblings and his mother

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Speaker 1: and now is back to knock off presumably his older

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Speaker 1: brother James and his younger brother Harry. So James here's moaning.

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Speaker 1: He sits up. He starts to get up and walk,

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Speaker 1: but Charles steps into the doorway with the axe and

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Speaker 1: the blood dripping, and James of course has an oh

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Speaker 1: shit moment and he grabs a chair and they start

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Speaker 1: to fight, big time fight. James overcomes Charles, thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: He gets control of him and he drags him through

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Speaker 1: the streets of Homestead and deposits him to the police

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Speaker 1: station and says, this guy just tried to murder our

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Speaker 1: entire family and he's by a little wow. Can you imagine?

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Speaker 2: So do we have any information of any behaviors that

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Speaker 2: Charles was exhibiting ahead of time that might be predictive

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Speaker 2: for this type of violence?

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Speaker 1: Boy, are we going to have to get into that

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Speaker 1: because this is not open and shut, because now we

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Speaker 1: know who the killer is. You know, we're a third

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Speaker 1: of the way through this. We know who did it.

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Speaker 1: There is no question that he did it. But why

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Speaker 1: so this is what James says, and then we can

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Speaker 1: get into Charles and his personality. He says that on

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Speaker 1: the way down to the station, Charles fought him like

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Speaker 1: a raccoon. He was going crazy. James is bigger and

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Speaker 1: managed to get him down there and they put him

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Speaker 1: in a cell and he calmed down, and then Charles said,

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Speaker 1: why am I here? I don't understand what happened, And

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Speaker 1: just like that, he says, I have no clue why

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Speaker 1: I'm here and what I did, don't remember it at all.

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Speaker 1: And before you ask, this is not once again our sleepwalking,

337
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Speaker 1: But he says I have no idea what happened. Now.

338
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Speaker 1: We can talk if you want about Charles's personality and

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00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 1: where we think things went. But the big deal for

340
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Speaker 1: me with this case is did he know what he

341
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Speaker 1: was doing? Where does he end up? What ends up happening?

342
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Speaker 1: And how do you know if someone legitimately did something

343
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Speaker 1: terrible but doesn't realize it and shouldn't be held accountable

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Speaker 1: in some certain way.

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Speaker 2: I've had, In fact, I've got, you know, one of

346
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Speaker 2: my big cold cases or series of cases with a

347
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Speaker 2: known offender who was convicted of three this Phil Hughes.

348
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Speaker 2: This was the gamut that Phil did in saying what

349
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Speaker 2: he's being interviewed, that he had amnesia. In essence, I

350
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Speaker 2: don't remember killing them, you know, I remember talking to her,

351
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Speaker 2: I don't remember actually killing And I'm just so skeptical

352
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Speaker 2: of that. In many ways, I feel that that's just

353
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Speaker 2: a that the offender is minimizing. I would need to

354
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Speaker 2: hear from reliable experts to tell me that this is

355
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Speaker 2: a real situation to where somebody can twist off kill

356
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Speaker 2: an entire family and not have any type of conscious

357
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Speaker 2: thought that they were aware that they are actually committing

358
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Speaker 2: these crimes.

359
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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about his background and maybe that'll be helpful.

360
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Speaker 1: The murders are a total shock for everybody who knows

361
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 1: this family, and for Charles specifically, because he seemed like

362
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,360
Speaker 1: a wonderful teenager. There was an article in nineteen oh

363
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Speaker 1: two that ran in the Salsilito News that he was

364
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Speaker 1: of a kindly disposition. He was very fond of his mother,

365
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: and his brothers and his sisters, and of course his dad.

366
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Speaker 1: Before his dad died, he was roundly described as a genius.

367
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Speaker 1: They called him a teen with an inventor's mind, and

368
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Speaker 1: that he seemed destined one day to join the ranks

369
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Speaker 1: of Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, and Cyrus McCormick, who

370
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Speaker 1: I know I had never heard of before. But he

371
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 1: was the guy who invented the mechanical reaper, which is

372
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Speaker 1: a huge day. I could understand in the nineteen hundred

373
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Speaker 1: is why people would think that that was a big deal.

374
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Speaker 1: But this is someone who people thought. It wasn't just

375
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Speaker 1: like he's a good kid, this is someone who had

376
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Speaker 1: a real potential, a real drive. So does that help

377
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Speaker 1: Probably not?

378
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Speaker 2: No, you know, in terms of trying to correlate. Okay,

379
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Speaker 2: so now we're looking at. We're getting some background information.

380
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 2: Charles is not has not exhibited behaviors that people go, yeah,

381
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Speaker 2: you know, we expected him to do this type of thing,

382
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Speaker 2: or just he's a bad seed. So that's you know,

383
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Speaker 2: it's interesting that that's how Charles is being remembered. You know,

384
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Speaker 2: this idea of a person not committing a crime with

385
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Speaker 2: such brutality on his own family. You know, this is

386
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Speaker 2: where I wonder, Okay, you know, is there a chance

387
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Speaker 2: there's significant drugs on board?

388
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Speaker 1: So let me tell you more about Charles. So, he

389
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: had been hard at work perfecting a patent for a

390
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: combined air and power brake system for streetcars at seventeen.

391
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Speaker 1: He'd been inspired when he was involved in a streetcar

392
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 1: accident himself five years earlier, and he was really eager

393
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Speaker 1: to improve this existing technology. He had been working on

394
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: these breaks for two years since he was fifteen, and

395
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Speaker 1: it made it so far that his patent was pending

396
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Problem is, Charles is a perfectionist

397
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: and obsessive, and he cannot take time to stay away

398
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: from his work. He tinkers constantly. He is someone who

399
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds they would have called it monomania,

400
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: just a singular focus that could drive him crazy. And

401
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: I think it sounds like his mom wanted him to

402
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: step away from work and get some mental health rest

403
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: and he wasn't doing it. But this also would have

404
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: been a big deal for the family because one newspaper

405
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 1: said that he could have installed this patent if the

406
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: system weren'd He could install the patent on for about

407
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: three hundred dollars each. It would have been a great

408
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: savings for Rex and damage and everything else. So he

409
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Speaker 1: had all of this potential.

410
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: One of my good professional friends, who is a retired

411
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: California d DOJ profiler, you know, she often would say

412
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: offenders will frequently make the decision to kill within seventy

413
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: two hours of actually committing the crime, and so it's

414
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: always important, you know, to get a timeline of, well,

415
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: what's happened in the last few weeks leading up to

416
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 2: this homicide. So I'm wondering with Charles, you know, what

417
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 2: was the interactions that he had with his mom Hannah

418
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 2: leading up. It sounds like he is so obsessed with this.

419
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Speaker 2: I guess I'll call it like an engineering aspect of

420
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: his life that seems like a passion yet they live

421
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: on farm. You know, did he have expectations to work

422
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: the land or in the house, have other chores? And

423
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: his mom was getting on him. You're not holding your

424
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: end up, Charles. And now she's trying to get him

425
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: to do more inside the house or for the family

426
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: or whatever it was, and that's taken him away from

427
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: his passion. Is he getting angry at her? Even though

428
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: by all counts he seems like he's a good kid,

429
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: but he's still going to have emotional responses, especially if

430
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: he's so obsessed about a passion that his mom might

431
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: be trying to take away from him, at least from

432
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: his perspective.

433
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Speaker 1: Could be I mean, he could be given We don't know.

434
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: He could have been given responsibilities for the younger children

435
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: and he was resentful. You know, we don't know yet,

436
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: but we do have more information. I want to go

437
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: back to the house to see what is happening. So

438
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: Harry the fourteen year old is alive and fine, James,

439
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: when he dragged Charles down to the police station, Harry

440
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old calls two doctors. They come to

441
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: the house. So Joseph the fifteen year old, Agnes the

442
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: ten year old, and the twins are still alive. Okay,

443
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine. The Pittsburgh Press reports that

444
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: from the heads of the four victims, the physicians took

445
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: over two cups of bone which had been broken in

446
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: the skulls. Eventually, these kids are taken to a local hospital.

447
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: The majority of them die except Agnes. Okay, so Agnes

448
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: is the ten year old, but she'll never remember what happened.

449
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, too much brain damage probably.

450
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Yeah, she survived. She regained consciousness several weeks later,

451
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: but she couldn't remember what happened that night. So they

452
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: go into the bedroom and the police describe it as

453
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: a horror show. There's blood on the floor, of the walls,

454
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: the ceiling, on the knob of the door leading into

455
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: the front room, which the murderer opened. And now you know,

456
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: when you have Charles sitting here saying, I don't remember

457
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: any of this. Why are you accusing me? He's not

458
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: admitting to anything. He is saying, I don't remember anything

459
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: that happened. So now they're having to say, okay, are

460
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: we going to have to prove that this kid is

461
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: the one who did it? Even though the brother saw

462
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: him covered with blood? Carrying an axe, and he fought

463
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: them all the way down. So they said that when

464
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: the murderer, Charles will assume opened the door with the doorknob,

465
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: he was intent upon slaying his brothers. There's blood everywhere.

466
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: He placed his hand so close to the door to

467
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: shut out the light from his mother's room. There are

468
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: marks of his four fingers on the door, while in

469
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: other places the bloody mark of his entire hand. Is

470
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: that a good sample? Do you think? Can they pull that? And?

471
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: I guess it just depends right.

472
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: Well, when you say a good sample, you know there's

473
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 2: a lot going on here. When you start talking physical evidence,

474
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: the blood patterns, the types of blood patterns on Charles

475
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: is going to be absolutely critical. And it may not

476
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: just be blood. There may be a bone matter, There

477
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: may be brain matter, There could be hair, other tissues,

478
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: scalp that's on Charles. This is would all demonstrate, depending

479
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 2: on the pattern and the formation, demonstrate that he's present

480
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: when this tissue or the blood is being deposited. His

481
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: movements also become critical, being able to say this is

482
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: his hand? Was their bloody ridge detail? Could they do fingerprints?

483
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: That we're talking nineteen oh two, so likely they weren't

484
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: doing any type of fingerprint comparisons, but that's all part

485
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: of building a case to determine. Okay, the evidence is

486
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: showing Charles, Charles's movement after bloodshed, It's showing that he

487
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: was present at the time. That you have blood spatter

488
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 2: or tissue that is now being deposited on his person.

489
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: You know, that is all everything that we would be

490
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: looking at today in order to build a case to

491
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: show yes, Charles wasn't just standing in the room. He's

492
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: actually the one that is swinging the axe.

493
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: Well, what an awful story so far they're really trying

494
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: to figure out with Charles when he is saying I

495
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: don't know what happened. I don't know what happened. What

496
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: the police say he wants to talk about is his invention.

497
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: And he has a conspiracy theory, not about the murder

498
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: of his family, but around this invention. So this sounds

499
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: familiar to me because it pops up kind of in

500
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: a case from American Sherlock about a chemist who believed

501
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: that he was also being plotted against because he had

502
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: an invention. So this is part of I guess, the monomania,

503
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: and this is where we want to get into his

504
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: mental health a little bit. So the police think it's

505
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: clear that Charles is responsible for the crime, but nobody

506
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: gets why. So they ask everybody in the family who's

507
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: stile alive, and according to Harry and James, Charles had

508
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: seemed a little bit more off than usual just ahead

509
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: of the killings. James told the police that Charles had

510
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: very recently become quiet and withdrawn. But everybody blew it

511
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: off because he's been waiting for this patent from the

512
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: government for the streetcar braking system to be approved, and

513
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: he was obsessive about tinkering with it, you know, and

514
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: making sure it was going to be right, and they

515
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: said it was all that he could focus on. So

516
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: they saw some signs and ignored them because they said,

517
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: he's been kind of weird about this whole patent thing

518
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: to begin with. And we never blame the victim, but

519
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: it is interesting to talk about signs that might have

520
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: been missed. But who would have predicted.

521
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: This, just, you know, sort of somebody withdrawing into themselves.

522
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: I mean, how often does that happen to so many people?

523
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: And yet they don't go off and become axe murders, right,

524
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: So those aren't such significant behaviors where I would expect

525
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: even the family members to go, oh, we need a

526
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: mental health check on Charles. But it's in hindsight going okay, well,

527
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: there was something going on with him, But what caused

528
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: him to escalate to committing this level of violence on

529
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: his family? That seems to be the million dollar mystery

530
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: right now with Charles. And you started talking about when

531
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: law enforcement is asking him, he's more interested in talking

532
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: about invention and he's not talking about the crime. And

533
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: there's a conspiracy theory. You know, it's almost like, Okay,

534
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: is there a paranoia developing?

535
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: I think you might be right there, because listen to

536
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: this who Charles. Charles tells the police again he doesn't

537
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: want to talk about the murders. He says that he's

538
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: been recently receiving threatening letters. One particular letter ordered him

539
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: to stop trying to secure this patent for the streetcar

540
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: breaks or else he was going to be physically harmed.

541
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: But he couldn't tell police where the letter was in

542
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: the house. It never materialized, Okay, And it gets deeper.

543
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: So if you want to put your hand up, if

544
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: you want to comment on any of this stuff, because

545
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: he really has a detailed story about who this person is.

546
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know, right now, kind of assessing the crime scene.

547
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: You know, this is a disorganized crime scene. And typically

548
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: when you see this level of disorganization, Charles is not

549
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: even trying to cover up, you know, the fact that

550
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: he's committed this crime. He's got blood all over him.

551
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: You know, he gets caught by James. Anytime there's this

552
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: type of offender. This is where now you start to think, Okay,

553
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: are you dealing with a psychosis? Are you truly dealing

554
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: with somebody who is legally classified as mentally incompetent to

555
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: be charged with the crime. And so now that's kind

556
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: of the way I'm starting to assess Charles as you're

557
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: giving me more information about him as opposed to being

558
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: this anger driven offender that I possibly thought earlier. Now

559
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: knowing more about Charles sounds like, oh, there could be

560
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: something developing on the mental health side, a psychosis that

561
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: he may be attributing the commission of this crime to.

562
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: He's justifying it to something that the normal person would

563
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: go that is just bizarre.

564
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it gets weirder. Okay, So Charles is saying

565
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: he's gotten these threatening letters. And then he says, one evening,

566
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: an Italian man stopped by the house while Charles was

567
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: working on the front porch. He said, this Italian guy

568
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: asked me about the papers in front of him. So

569
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: Charles carries these patent papers around everywhere. Of course he

570
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: has copies, and this is, you know, connected to the invention.

571
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: Charles says, this Italian guy and I had a conversation,

572
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: and eventually he walked away. Charles said, I took the

573
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: papers and put him inside safely on the kitchen table.

574
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: Concerned though, he was afraid that this is the person

575
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: who was the author of the anonymous letter saying you

576
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: need to stop this patent immediately. And then he says

577
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: that Hannah saw a strange man on the property who

578
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: looked to be of Italian heritage, whatever that means. But

579
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: he wasn't inside the house, so he just was walking

580
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: outside on the street and that was it. That this

581
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: is it sounds like Charles saying this. He said that

582
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: later that day Charles noticed that some of his papers

583
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: were missing from the kitchen table, and you know, he

584
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: was very worried because now he's got these papers that

585
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: are gone, not all of them, but some there's an

586
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: Italian man walking around who he's scared of, and he's

587
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: had these anonymous letters, and Charles is putting it all

588
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: together and saying, this is awful. There's a guy out

589
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: there targeting me and maybe my family too. But he's

590
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: still not talking about the murders. So is this continuing

591
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: down the paranoia track for you?

592
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well for sure, you know, but if he's if

593
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: he's making these statements, of course you're going to try

594
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: to corroborate those statements. It sounds like the investigators did

595
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: go look for these papers. Who is this Italian man?

596
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: You know? Is he potentially a suspect in the homicides?

597
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: And Charles was there? But I would imagine that the

598
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: physical evidence is pointing so strongly at Charles is that

599
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: they're not going to really have to focus on this

600
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: mystical Italian man much at all. You know, they're pretty

601
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: confident that Charles is the killer. Now it's really getting

602
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: down to okay, so what exactly is going on with

603
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: him on the mental side, because they're going to have

604
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: to evaluate truly did he know what he was doing

605
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: when he killed his family?

606
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what the police think. They

607
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: start talking to family friends and talk to a few experts.

608
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: They think that Charles is making the whole Italian thing up,

609
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 1: that this man does not exist, He's never been able

610
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: to turn over letters. They think that Charles has been

611
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: so obsessed with working on this patent that what happened

612
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: was he did indeed leave from what Harry remembers, these

613
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: papers down on the kitchen table, and what this family friend. Now,

614
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: the family members are not saying this, but a family

615
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: friend theorizes this. You tell me what you think about this.

616
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 1: The family friend thinks that what happened was a couple

617
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: of the younger kids grabbed some of the papers. Charles

618
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: suspected they were the ones who grabbed the papers. And

619
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if he forgot about the Italian man

620
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: who doesn't exist, but he snapped at three or four

621
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: in the morning. I wonder if that's why he started

622
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: in that room, because he thought the kids were the

623
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: ones responsible.

624
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: I think anything along those lines is possible. For sure.

625
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: As Charles is relaying this, you know this, this aspect,

626
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: this is you know, this seems to be his focus.

627
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: You know, the patent, the papers, this Italian man. None

628
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: of it is making sense. Relative to the type of

629
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: crime that he committed. This is where from the law

630
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: enforcement side, it sounds like they've got absolute probable cost

631
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: to affect an arrest for I don't know how many died.

632
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, we have multiple homicides, we have multiple attempt homicides,

633
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 2: because you have, you know, several of the kids who lived.

634
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: So obviously this is a significant crime. You know, he

635
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: gets arrested, the DA would would charge, but then you

636
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: most certainly are going to be seeing an evaluation by

637
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: an expert, a psychiatrist, a forensic psychiatrist, where there is

638
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: Charles on the spectrum of mental health.

639
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: Well, it gets a little complicated because you know, James

640
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: is our hero, the twenty one year old. He confronts

641
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: his brother, fights him, saves his life, certainly saves Harry's life,

642
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: and the little girl who survived drags him down. James,

643
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: he's a sketchy character and the police know him very well.

644
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: He's arrested after the murders, but this happened before the murders,

645
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: a couple of days before the murders, so there's highway

646
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: robbery involved. Six days before Charles's rampage is when this happens.

647
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: The charge is not taken lightly against James because one

648
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: of the victims was struck by a train and killed

649
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: when he was running from this gang. And it's interesting because,

650
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: you know, the authorities did not want to arrest James

651
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: immediately because of everything that was happening with his family

652
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: when they were actually able to put together this case.

653
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: But then the judge looks at him and once they

654
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: finally bring him in and say did you do this?

655
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: And he nods his head. He and Hannah fought all

656
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: the time about his James's behavior versus you take somebody

657
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: like Charles who seem like sort of the perfect son

658
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: when he wasn't gloomy and obsessive over his patent. So

659
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: pretty quickly James becomes the focal point of suspicion and

660
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: gossip because they think the town thinks because of kind

661
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: of the way that he behaves, that the apple doesn't

662
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: fall far from the I don't know, brother tree, but

663
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: that the two of them act the same way. There

664
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: has to be a little bit of insanity with both

665
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: of these brothers. And it becomes a little muddled because

666
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: even though there's no evidence to back this up. Pretty

667
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: soon James is drawn in and people think maybe he's

668
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: framing his brother. This is media and gossip, but still

669
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure very hurtful for the surviving family members like Harry.

670
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: Right now sounds like really points Charles as being the killer.

671
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: But back in nineteen oh two, they probably don't have

672
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: the photography to document all that, and so in order

673
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: to go into court and show in front of a jury, hey, look,

674
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: this is this is all this evidence that we have

675
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: that points that Charles as being the killer. Without having

676
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: that kind of documentation, it's very easy for let's say,

677
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: the defense to point at James and say, James is

678
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: the bad apple of this family, He's the real killer,

679
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: and he just happened to, you know, throw Charles, you know,

680
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: into law enforcement's hands, kind of inserting himself into the

681
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: investigation and staging it that Charles is the killer. So

682
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 2: it would be tough, but right now it does sound

683
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: like James is just getting a bad rap for the

684
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: homicides though, I mean, he's committing a robbery that results

685
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: in a death, right, I mean, he's culpable for a

686
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: very serious crime right there, and.

687
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: He fights with his mother because he's a troublemaker. So

688
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: right of all the Colleyes James seems to be the

689
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: one who is the most suited. But boy, the crime.

690
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: There's a big difference between highway robbery and chasing somebody

691
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: until they get hit by a train and butchering little kids.

692
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: When I read that point, it was likely Charles had

693
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: sort of visualized the Italian man coming in and taking

694
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: some pages and slipping back out. But then somewhere in

695
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: there he realized it might have been my little brothers

696
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: and sisters, and that's why he heads to that room

697
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: that I can see clearly happening when he's standing there,

698
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: dripping in their blood. Just the description of his obsession

699
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: over this patent. Boy, boy, I mean, what a motive here.

700
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 2: I go back to the amount of violence on Hannah,

701
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: his mom. I do think that there's something either that

702
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: in reality happened between Charles and Hannah, or Charles constructed

703
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: something within his mind frame, if you will, asked why

704
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: he was so angry at his mom and did such

705
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: dramatic overkill. That speaks volumes to me.

706
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: He is charged about two months after the murder. A

707
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: grand jury recommends charging Charles with the homicides. When he

708
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: goes to trial, of course, he maintains his innocence. He says,

709
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: somebody broke in and killed my family. It wasn't me.

710
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is the experts in psychology who were

711
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: observing her him in court said it seems that he

712
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: genuinely does not think he was the one who did this,

713
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: Like this is not acting. This is somebody who does

714
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: not remember something. So he says, my mind was blank

715
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: at the time that this act was committed. One expert,

716
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: I know this wasn't about sleepwalking. One expert says he

717
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: was probably sleepwalking during the event, that Charles probably had

718
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: some sleep issues. But there is no doubt to the

719
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: judge that Charles Cawley committed the murders. That being said,

720
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. What

721
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: do you think you're nod in your head? I was

722
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: wondering if you were going to be surprised about that,

723
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: because nineteen oh two, I didn't know they would be

724
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: that progressive to be able to see that.

725
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there's there's a lot more information about

726
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: Charles that that would be needed, that could that they

727
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 2: were dealing with and what we've talked about in this episode.

728
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 2: But this on the surface, with what I've heard it

729
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: definitely seems like, yes, there is a there's a psychotic

730
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: issue going on with Charles. You know, to what extent

731
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: is it, I don't know. I'd have to rely on,

732
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: you know, the experts who evaluated Charles to say, hey,

733
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: this is this is what's going on with the seventeen

734
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: year old kid. But I can recall a case. It

735
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: was a homicide case of a woman and it was

736
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 2: somebody who lived in her apartment complex that she was

737
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: friends with, that ultimately sexually assaulted and stabbed her. And

738
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: walking into court and looking at his eyes sitting at

739
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: the defendant's table, and you could just see there's something

740
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 2: off with that guy. You know, was very observable. And

741
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 2: then eventually the judge in that case halted the trial

742
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: and sent him off for further mental evaluation, and then

743
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: he was found mentally incompetent to stand trial. I do

744
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: believe there is those scenarios in reality, and maybe Charles

745
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: in reality is mentally incompetent, you know, to be charged criminally.

746
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: But too often that is where we see people who

747
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: are not in that mind frame, but they use that

748
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: as a defense. That's where you get skeptical, you know,

749
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: Is this real or isn't it? But it sounds like

750
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: in Charles's case, there's at least enough there with the paranoia,

751
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: his response to the investigation, the obsession that he has

752
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 2: with this patent, that there is a mental health issue

753
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: that is real. It's just unfortunate that so many people

754
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: lost their lives because of that.

755
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was an expert who interviewed Charles and said

756
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: that his memory of that brutal night literally is just

757
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: about the development he made on that stupid patent, and

758
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: that was it. He doesn't remember anything else, and that's

759
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: why they said he was temporarily insane during this murder spree.

760
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: There were talks of transferring him to a psychiatric hospital,

761
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: but he ends up spending most of his post trial

762
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,479
Speaker 1: in the county jail. There were probably limited options for him.

763
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what happens after this, because it's

764
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: a sign of the times. The family members who survived

765
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: and extended family refuse to turn their back on this guy.

766
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: They think he really has some problems, that he doesn't

767
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: remember anything, and that is that they want him out.

768
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: He in nineteen oh four, just two years after the murders,

769
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: is diagnosed with tuberculosis. The Kalley family says, to the

770
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: powers that be, let's get him out, get him out

771
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: right now. He was an excellent prisoner. He was coherent,

772
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: He was no longer seen as a threat. I have

773
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: no idea why that would change once he's in prison.

774
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: Is it because the patent is now gone. I'm assuming

775
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: the government would not approve it. Is it that he

776
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: can't tinker anymore? And all of a sudden he's living

777
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: in reality, But now, all of a sudden, he is

778
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: mister normal guy in jail. What do you think about that?

779
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: I would have reservations about letting him back out into society.

780
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: Who's to say that he wouldn't have another mental break?

781
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: You know, it hurt somebody else, the crime that he committed.

782
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: I mean you think about I mean, his mom, these

783
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: kids with an axe. You know, I have problems. You know.

784
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: He may not be somebody that should be you know,

785
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: in general population in prison, but definitely under the care

786
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: of professionals as well as I personally, I believe, restricted

787
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: from being out freely in society just because he's shown

788
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: a propensity for extreme violence.

789
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: Well, according to an article in the Pittsburgh Weekly Gazette,

790
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: from around this time period. His attorneys and the jail

791
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: attendants all say the boy Charles is perfectly harmless. Now

792
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: he is so weak, physically weak, he can hardly raise

793
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: his head up. His aunt says she loves the boy

794
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: and wants to care for him on that account, and

795
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: he's released. He gets out in late nineteen oh four,

796
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: and he's released to the care of his aunt. And

797
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of is, well, number one,

798
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: did he get a new invention because he's now twenty?

799
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: Did he get a new invention? Did he kill anybody else?

800
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: What ends up happening? And what ends up happening is,

801
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,479
Speaker 1: like I said, a sign of the times. He dies

802
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: from tuberculosis almost immediately after he gets out of jail

803
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: at twenty, after.

804
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: All of this, Wow, my prediction is that he had

805
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 2: n't come down with tuberculosis and was let back out

806
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: that there is a possibility that he probably would have

807
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: hurt somebody else. I go to Ed Kemper. Ed Kemper

808
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: had some problems in his early teenage years, was you know,

809
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: given over to his grandparents to care for him, and

810
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: then ended up becoming a serial killer, you know, the

811
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: co ed killer. Yeah, sometimes these early behaviors earlier in

812
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: youth are predictive of violence in the future. Yes, so

813
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: you know with with Charles, maybe he truly didn't remember

814
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: what was going on due to the psychotic episode, but

815
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: he's not somebody I would trust with my family members.

816
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you it scared the hell out of

817
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: the people in this country once the story got around.

818
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: The conclusion of this is poor Harry died two years

819
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: after that, and we don't know what happened to anyone else,

820
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: except we do know about Ella Cowley, who was married

821
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: and not on the property, who apparently went on and

822
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: had a very nice life because her lovely descendant was

823
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: the one who gave us the story. But, as I said,

824
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: this scared the hell out of a lot of people.

825
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: Because the Pittsburgh Weekly Gazette posted something I thought was

826
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: really interesting. The Calle tragedy at Homestead has resulted in

827
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: numerous applications from parents who have partially or wholly demented

828
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: children to have them admitted to the asylums. Man, what

829
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: a story I mean this is it's so complicated because

830
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: we have all of the experts now who would really

831
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: be able to do a proper examination and what we

832
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: have is anecdotal evidence, which is this seems like to

833
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: me all the hallmarks of somebody who who really did

834
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: have a huge mental break and didn't know what he

835
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: was doing. But you never know, that doesn't mean he

836
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: should have gotten out.

837
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: No, And this is where you know, there's investigating this

838
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 2: multiple homicide. There's the law enforcement side, got homicides, We're

839
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: going to make an arrest, charges filed, prosecution, et cetera.

840
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: Charles is found mentally incompetent. But then there's also the

841
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: public safety side. And even though maybe he cannot be

842
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:11,479
Speaker 2: held criminally liable for these homicides, we still have to consider, well,

843
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: what is Charles's impact on public safety in general? And

844
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 2: what mechanisms do we have that are outside of law

845
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: enforcement to ensure that public safety is maintained with Charles

846
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 2: being released. And that is my primary concern is, yes,

847
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: he needs professional help, but is that just we're just

848
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 2: now going to let him move freely out in society

849
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: knowing what he is capable of doing when he has

850
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 2: that kind of mental break. And I have great concerns

851
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: about that mindset.

852
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: What I wonder is in that time period it would

853
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: have been once you have tuberculosis. I wonder if it

854
00:48:55,480 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: was compassion release, because I'm not sure they thought he

855
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: was going to survive, because he died shortly after. But

856
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: to your point, we don't know. I don't know. I

857
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: was alarmed by that too. You know. I like to

858
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: bring you stories that are very forensic heavy and lots

859
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: of autopsy discussions and how many blows to the head

860
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: and bloody blah. But every once in a while we

861
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: do need to have just a good old fashioned discussion

862
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: about human behavior and what makes sense and what doesn't.

863
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: And very few times have you and I been able

864
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: to actually say, boy, this seems like somebody who really

865
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: needed mental health help more than anything else in current

866
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: day mental health help, not nineteen oh two mental health help.

867
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: So this is a story of such a brutal crime

868
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: that would be so hard to get over. But when

869
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: the family says, please, we want to take care of him,

870
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: he did not know what he was doing. I don't know.

871
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know it comes back. You know one

872
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: of my fundamental texts that I initially read when I was,

873
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 2: you know, twenty five years old, it's called cry in

874
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: Human Nature, and this is where now you see the

875
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: studies of the criminality that is present within our society.

876
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: But there's also this stratification in terms of, well, why

877
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: do people commit crimes? And you know, how do we

878
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: treat people who are committing crimes but may not have

879
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 2: the capacity to understand right from wrong, to know that

880
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: they're even committing an act of violence like in Charles's case,

881
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, And then how do we handle people like

882
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: that in a manner that is accepted within society? Because

883
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: on one hand, Charles killed, YEP, an entire family, He

884
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 2: killed kids with an axe. You know, the the anger,

885
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: the rage of an offender committing that type of violence.

886
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: He needs to be thrown into prison for the rest

887
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: of his life. But at the same time, if he

888
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 2: truly has that mental incapacity, you know, it's like, Okay,

889
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: how do we handle that in the right right way?

890
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: But keep the public safe? And I think that's part

891
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: of the discussion, you know, and we see that today.

892
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: There's no difference from nineteen oh two to today in

893
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 2: terms of, Okay, we have these types of individuals, we're

894
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: just not going to throw them in prison. Yeah, the

895
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: criminal justice system understands that, but how do you handle

896
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 2: them appropriately while keeping the public safe? And I think

897
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: that's an ongoing debate depending on what you think about

898
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: you know these types of mental health scenarios.

899
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: Well, this was a hard case, involved children and involved

900
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: an entire family, a single mother, teenage boy, young man

901
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: who we don't know what happened there. But I know

902
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: one thing for sure, you and I deserve a break.

903
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: I think we need it. We need This is a

904
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: mandatory week off, Faulls. I know you don't like doing

905
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: stuff like that, but you are ordered to take one

906
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: week off and I will see you the following week.

907
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 2: All right, I look forward to it.

908
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: Kate, thanks. This has been an exactly right production for

909
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

910
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

911
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

912
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

913
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

914
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

915
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

916
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

917
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: ary bones.

918
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Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

919
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Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

920
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Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

921
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Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

922
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Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now