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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A quiet, upscale neighborhood turns

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Speaker 1: into a murder scene when a gorgeous stay at home

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Speaker 1: mom of two sons is not only brutally murdered in

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Speaker 1: her own basement, but then dismembered. Disturbingly chilling video emerges

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Speaker 1: from doorbell cams that show the killer pulling the dismembered

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Speaker 1: body of this young mom up the sidewalk nearly half

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Speaker 1: a mile away from her home and then just leaving

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Speaker 1: her body there, literally leaving a trail of blood leading

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Speaker 1: back to the family home side door. The only thing

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Speaker 1: we don't know is who murdered a sawya, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's he Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Serious X

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Speaker 1: one eleven. First of all, take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at Picks eleven. Police are still trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out who is pulling this duffel bag containing the body

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Speaker 1: of murder victim fifty one year old or Solja gall

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Speaker 1: a married mother of two teenaged boys. It's an eerie

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Speaker 1: photo provided to Pis eleven by police sources, who also

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Speaker 1: say the killer used the victim's cell phone and sent

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Speaker 1: a text to her husband that read your whole family

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Speaker 1: is next. I couldn't imagine why just what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't imagine. And I hope the husband's able

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Speaker 1: to handle it. Doctor Carl Adler says he used to

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Speaker 1: see Gall and her husband as patients. He says he

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Speaker 1: was devastated when he heard she had been killed, her

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Speaker 1: body stuffed in a Duffel bag and dragged half a

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Speaker 1: mile from the family's Juno Street home. They were very

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Speaker 1: nice people. She's a very lovely woman, very kind and

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Speaker 1: good mother. And I was just devastated. As crime scene

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Speaker 1: detectives continue to gather evidence from inside the family's home,

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Speaker 1: neighbors are still baffled. Hopefully they find whoever did it.

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Speaker 1: You were hearing reporter of Maggie Hickey, but now it's

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Speaker 1: like listen to Kennye Krona picks eleven. Our police sources

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Speaker 1: are revealing new details to us this morning about what

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Speaker 1: happened the night of Orsia Gall's murder, including the chilling

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Speaker 1: text that her killer allegedly sent from her phone. Crime

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Speaker 1: Scene investigators were inside her home on Juno Street overnight.

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Speaker 1: There has been a constant police presence around the clock

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Speaker 1: This is a very fluid and developing situation, but this

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Speaker 1: is what we know so far. According to our police sources,

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Speaker 1: the fifty one year old mother of two told her

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Speaker 1: youngest son she was going out to see a show

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Speaker 1: Friday night. At some point, a man who she knew

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Speaker 1: caught up with her, and that is the man police

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Speaker 1: believe murdered Gall in her basement. He reportedly dragged her

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Speaker 1: out in a duffel bag and dumped the bag about

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Speaker 1: half a mile away. A man walking his jog discovered

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Speaker 1: it early Saturday morning. All we have right now is

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Speaker 1: a picture of that suspect from a neighbor's surveillance camera.

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Speaker 1: Or sources tell us that this man then sent a

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Speaker 1: text to Gall's husband from her phone saying, quote, your

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Speaker 1: wife sent me to jail some years ago. I'm back.

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Speaker 1: Don't call the police or I will kill your family. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Why would a killer take the time and basically give

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Speaker 1: away his identity by sending that text with me? To

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Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now? An all

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Speaker 1: star panel Matthew Mangino, attorney, former district attorney, author of

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Speaker 1: the Executioner's Toll, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists, joining us

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Speaker 1: from the Atlanta Jurisdiction at Angela Arnold, MD dot com.

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Speaker 1: Mona kay private investigator at Mona Kaye Investigations, renowned medical examiner.

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Speaker 1: You know him well. All you have to do is

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Speaker 1: turn on your TV to see this guy, doctor Michael Boden,

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Speaker 1: who I considered to be a longtime friend and colleague,

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Speaker 1: former chief medical exam er in New York and past

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Speaker 1: co director of New York State Police Medico Legal Investigations Unit.

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Speaker 1: But first two special guests joining us in the New

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Speaker 1: York Post, the Police Bureau Chief Tina Moore. Tina, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Tell me the chronology, the

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Speaker 1: timeline of what we know. I mean, I've got so

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Speaker 1: many questions, Tina. Do we know she really went out?

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Speaker 1: Did she really go out with friends? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: did this guy get to her? Hum? Why did he

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Speaker 1: hitchhike there because there's no car driving in or out?

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Speaker 1: Did he ride with her? How did the thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old son sleep through the whole thing? But you know what,

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Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. Go ahead, Tina. More So,

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Speaker 1: police sources tell us that she did go out with

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Speaker 1: her friends. They talked to the friends. She went to

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Speaker 1: a show in Manhattan. We don't know what show exactly.

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Speaker 1: And then she went back to her to Queen's and

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Speaker 1: she went to a bar there, and police sources tell

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Speaker 1: us they have her on video at that bar about

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Speaker 1: forty minutes. She looks like she's waiting for somebody, but

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Speaker 1: that person never shows up, and she goes home. And

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Speaker 1: that's around midnight. And after that it's not clear what happens.

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Speaker 1: Somebody gets into the house and somebody kills her on

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Speaker 1: the first floor and then takes it to the basement,

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Speaker 1: and then we see the hockey bag throwing down the street,

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Speaker 1: and later her body's later discovered in that bag in

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Speaker 1: the morning. Now, the structure, it looks to me to

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Speaker 1: be at least two stories, if not three, and there's

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Speaker 1: a basement as well. I'm trying to figure out how

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Speaker 1: the thirteen year old son Leo Kline could be all

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Speaker 1: the way at the top and never hear a thing.

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Speaker 1: I guess it is possible. Yeah, I mean, he's thirteen.

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Speaker 1: You know how teenagers are you know? I don't I

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Speaker 1: want to say for sure, but it's possibly. He's on

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Speaker 1: he's got headphones on, he's listening to music, he's not

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Speaker 1: paying attention, he's watching TV something to that effect. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious about why the text message is basically

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Speaker 1: staging the same. But first I want to go to

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Speaker 1: doctor Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner, New York. Doctor Boden,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. It's a

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Speaker 1: real honor and a privilege. Good to be with you, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: doctor Boden. We are now hearing a clarification. We've been

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Speaker 1: told sixty or more like fifty eight, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of defensive ones to the inside of the palm and

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Speaker 1: the inside of the fingers, clearly defensive ones. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of this? Well, number one the number whether

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Speaker 1: fifty eight or sixty, and they're difficult to count out

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Speaker 1: of autopsy. You know, they're good point different. So that

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Speaker 1: like you say, the cuts, maybe one or two or

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Speaker 1: three cup wounds or one cup wounds. But this wasn't

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Speaker 1: a stranger. I mean, the strangers don't do that. They

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Speaker 1: don't stick around and over kill somebody. And now you

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Speaker 1: have three people involved here, you know, the son, the

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Speaker 1: husband not there but arranging it, or whoever this stranger

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Speaker 1: is that may have come in who knew her? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, if if she somehow lost consciousness immediately, then

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Speaker 1: the another individual could come in knock her out or

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Speaker 1: stamper she does so there's no not much noise, and

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Speaker 1: then somehow dismembers her. According to the media, that's bizarre

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Speaker 1: and h this doctor, I'm not sure that was mentioned.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Adlover made the comment had seen them. I wonder

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Speaker 1: was he a psychiatrist, seeing them in marriage counseling or

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Speaker 1: just And that was interesting, Doctor Biden, because he said,

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Speaker 1: I guess a neighbor stated he had treated them. Was

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Speaker 1: he a family practitioner? Was he a marriage counselor? But

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Speaker 1: when you are treating a group of people, I think

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Speaker 1: either counseling or a family practitioner that just saw everybody.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of theories, doctor Biden, that you're throwing

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Speaker 1: out right there, A lot of theories. You mentioned multiple

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Speaker 1: people being involved, You mentioned the husband. Right now, no

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Speaker 1: one has been charged. Police are saying they may have

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Speaker 1: a person of interest. We don't know who that is,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Biden. Let me talk to you about one thing

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Speaker 1: you said at the very beginning. It reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the Jodi Arias case. Remember us talking about that where

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Speaker 1: she's yeah, she stabbed Travis Alexander or her lover about

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Speaker 1: twenty eight twenty nine times and then shot him in

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Speaker 1: the head. As you said, kill them many times over.

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Speaker 1: But the overlapping stab wounds, it's really hard with that

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Speaker 1: many stab wounds to determine how many there really are. Why, well,

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Speaker 1: there are stab wounds that defense how deep they are.

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Speaker 1: Some are superficial, some are defense wounds. It sounds if

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Speaker 1: she's got a bunch of wounds on her hands, it

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Speaker 1: may be that she was defending herself. Now, if she's

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Speaker 1: defending herself, then it takes a she's a lot. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't go unconscious right away, and there's more likely to

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Speaker 1: be noise that others could hear. But this uh business

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Speaker 1: that you that was brought up, that the dragging means

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Speaker 1: that whoever did it didn't have a car is an

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Speaker 1: interesting thought also that if normally, if a stranger comes

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Speaker 1: comes in a car and puts a not a stranger

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Speaker 1: but an assignation, somebody came to see her that she

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Speaker 1: was waiting for in the bar, they come with a car,

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Speaker 1: and they wouldn't be dragging out the person on the street. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean to you, Mona Ka joining me with Mona

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Speaker 1: Kay Investigations out of Omaha. Mona. Well, the first thing

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Speaker 1: I thought to doctor Boden was about the multiple stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: It's my understanding that when you stab over and over,

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Speaker 1: many of the stab wounds actually go into previous stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: And since flesh it's not immovable, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: determine how many stab wounds there are, at least fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: which when I go to doctor Angel Arnold can explain

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Speaker 1: what that means about the killer. But mona Ka private

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Speaker 1: investigator joining us out of Omaha. I mean, if I

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Speaker 1: had to get rid of a dead body, I can

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Speaker 1: guarantee you I would not put it in my son's

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Speaker 1: black BarreR hockey bag and drag it in plain view

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Speaker 1: down the street, literally leaving a trail of blood to

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Speaker 1: my side door, and then just go about it. After

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Speaker 1: half a mile ago, I'm tired. I'll just leave it

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Speaker 1: on the sidewalk. What that doesn't even make any sense? No, exactly,

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Speaker 1: that was my first thought. Who you know, with all

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Speaker 1: of the surveillance cameras you know on doorbells, Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: that's probably where the initial surveillance footage was picked up.

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Speaker 1: But um, you know Where did the deffel bag come from?

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Speaker 1: Was it did her son's play hockey? Did it come

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Speaker 1: from the house? Did somebody bring the bag there? You

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Speaker 1: know the same with the knife or what you know?

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Speaker 1: Did the knife come from the home? Did the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: bring it into the house. But you know how many

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Speaker 1: people are going to drag a body in a deffel

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Speaker 1: bag around a neighborhood, out to a busy street and

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Speaker 1: leave it. Who's gonna take that chance? You know what?

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Speaker 1: It's reminding me of, Manique. It's reminding me of Robert Blake.

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Speaker 1: Robert Blake who killed his wife, Bonnie Lee Bakley. Even

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Speaker 1: though Jerry said he did not, I still say he did.

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Speaker 1: Remember in that case, the killer couldn't, for many reasons,

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Speaker 1: get too far from the crime scene. So the killer

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Speaker 1: had to dispose of a weapon and a dumpster a

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Speaker 1: block or two away from the restaurant. Couldn't leave. It

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Speaker 1: didn't fit in with the fact scenario the killer had fabricated.

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Speaker 1: In that case, Robert Blake had gone to a restaurant

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Speaker 1: with his wife. She went to the car, he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I left my gun at the restaurant. He goes back

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Speaker 1: in and in that those few minutes, the killer attacks

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Speaker 1: Bodily Bakeley, no sex attack, no robbery, shoots her in

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Speaker 1: the head, and the gun has found a block or

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Speaker 1: two away. Interesting, right, in this case, the killer did

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Speaker 1: not get far from the home with the body. I mean,

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Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, dump it in a river, bury it,

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Speaker 1: put it in a trash dump anything except half a

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Speaker 1: mile from the home from the murder scene on the sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: It's like screaming, Hi, I'm a dead body in the

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Speaker 1: Duffel bag, Come and get me and call police. It's

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Speaker 1: just so obvious, mona. Who would do that? Right? What

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Speaker 1: was the point of taking the body from the home?

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Speaker 1: Why not leave her body there? Exactly? And to you,

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Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer, former prosecutor, Matthew, unless the

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Speaker 1: killer was wearing gloves, that bag, if it's got a handlebar,

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Speaker 1: and that home is going to be covered with bloody fingerprints.

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Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything about the murder weapon being recovered yet,

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Speaker 1: but unless the purps wearing gloves, they're gonna be bloody

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Speaker 1: fingerprints as shoeprints. You're right, Dancy, and I think investigators

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Speaker 1: are probably holding backs and information that they have, particularly

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Speaker 1: with any physical evidence fingerprints, shoeprints, things like that that

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Speaker 1: might be in the home, you know, as well as

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Speaker 1: as the murder weapon. Was it from within the home

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Speaker 1: or or was it taken out of the home after

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Speaker 1: the murder? You know, I think everything at this point,

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Speaker 1: at least initially, if I was investigating, this would would

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Speaker 1: point to somebody inside the home. Okay. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the husband is away in order done with with another child,

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Speaker 1: he receives this mysterious uh text message about killing the

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Speaker 1: whole family. Why why would somebody send a message like that? Um?

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Speaker 1: You know, we know that conveniently there's there's a bag

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Speaker 1: with wheels on it that you can put the body

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Speaker 1: in so you can will it away from the home.

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Speaker 1: So so at this point, um, even though the husband

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Speaker 1: may not be physically involved, I don't think you can

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Speaker 1: uh look away from some other involvement in this some

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Speaker 1: way or somebody else in the home, because there was

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Speaker 1: clearly not a break in, uh it was it seems

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Speaker 1: as though she was someone that she knew, and this

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Speaker 1: was certainly a crime that involved rage. When you stab

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Speaker 1: somebody fifty eight times and mutilate their body. Speaking of

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Speaker 1: the husband was chef. Of course is the first place

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Speaker 1: you look. Take a listen to our cut nine Katie

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Speaker 1: Kardo Picks eleven. Police sources tell Picks eleven News that

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Speaker 1: Gaull's husband and oldest son were out of town Friday

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Speaker 1: night when Gaul reportedly went out with another man, who

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Speaker 1: then murdered her in her basement and drived out her body.

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Speaker 1: According to police sources, a trail of blood led officers

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Speaker 1: back to Gaul's home. The killer also reportedly took Gaull's

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Speaker 1: phone and texted her husband saying, quote, your whole family

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Speaker 1: is next crime stories with Nancy Grace staging a crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Staging a crime scene, I mean doctor Anancy Arnold, renowned

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Who sticks

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Speaker 1: around random killers kill? They rape, they rob, they rape

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Speaker 1: and or they rob, they steal from the home and

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Speaker 1: they're gone. Who sticks around to dismember a body for what?

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Speaker 1: You're just gonna leave it outside on the sidewalk. Why

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Speaker 1: dismember the body? And also why send the text your

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Speaker 1: wife put me in jail some years ago. What that's

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Speaker 1: very odd phraseology? Why stage the scene? A random killer

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Speaker 1: will be out of there. Well, I think that in

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Speaker 1: so many things that we've in so many shows that

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Speaker 1: we've done, Nancy, oftentimes when people stage, when when a

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Speaker 1: scene is staged, it's too it's to put everyone off

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Speaker 1: the track of who actually did it. It's it's part

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Speaker 1: of the lie. Staging of the scene could be part

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Speaker 1: of the lie. The multiple stab wounds we all know

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Speaker 1: come from an intense rage. My curiosity is piqued. I

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Speaker 1: want to know was the family doing family counseling and

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Speaker 1: what was that all about? To me, this is such

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Speaker 1: a big piece, and I know this story is new,

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Speaker 1: but that's where I want to I want to jump

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Speaker 1: in and find out about what was going on with

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Speaker 1: this family. Magda Tina More joining our special guest than

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Speaker 1: York Post Police Bureau Chief Tina. Do you know whether

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Speaker 1: the murder weapon has been recovered? No, I don't know that.

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Speaker 1: That's one sorts that have been keepn pretty close guarded.

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Speaker 1: We know that they never saw the tech messages though,

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Speaker 1: which is curious, and they're waiting for a subpoena for

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Speaker 1: the phone, so, I mean, that's still all up in

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Speaker 1: the air. That's fun interesting. Why why do they have

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Speaker 1: to give mean they're subpoenaing the records, or they're subpoenaing

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Speaker 1: the actual phone. Why doesn't he just hand it over

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Speaker 1: the actual phone? There has to have to get subpoena

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Speaker 1: for it to use it. Why. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: that's just the usual thing when you're doing an investigation.

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Speaker 1: If you want to build use what's on the phone,

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Speaker 1: you have to legally get the phone. Well, Matthew Mangino,

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Speaker 1: She's right, unless you get permission. You can't just think

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Speaker 1: of a home. You can't just barge into police unless

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Speaker 1: there are extenuating, exigent or emergency circumstances. You have to

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Speaker 1: have a search warrant unless you get permission. Why does

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Speaker 1: the father just hand over the phone? Right? I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know you can always get consent, you know. So,

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Speaker 1: So if there's not exigent circumstances like you just described,

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Speaker 1: or you don't have a search war, you simply ask

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Speaker 1: for the phone and if the party consents, then you're

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Speaker 1: you're in the clear. You don't have any problem with

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Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment with regard to an unlawful search and season.

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Speaker 1: So if it would seem strange in this scenario that

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Speaker 1: the father who talked about the message, who said that

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Speaker 1: his family was in danger when he was contacted by

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Speaker 1: the media, would now be reluctant to turn that phone

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Speaker 1: over to the police. Now, on the other hand, if

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Speaker 1: the police have seen the messages, but they want to

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Speaker 1: get a search warrant just for whatever purposes, that might

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Speaker 1: make them feel like they have a stronger situation in

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Speaker 1: terms of the phone that people who well, I heard

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Speaker 1: what you just said, Mangino, Yes, makes them feel they've

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Speaker 1: got a stronger situation with the phone. In other words,

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Speaker 1: when one day it's contested in court that they took

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Speaker 1: the phone without permission, they want to make sure they

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Speaker 1: had to want to see why a cover there behind? Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But why would they need to cover their behind from

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Speaker 1: the dad's phone? Well, because it's it's this is an

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Speaker 1: evolving investigation. And as we said earlier, as I said

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Speaker 1: I would, I don't. I'm looking at inside the home

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Speaker 1: right now, I'm looking at people who know are intimately,

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Speaker 1: which would be family members. So I want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that, as you said, Seya, I have a search

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Speaker 1: warrant if in the future somebody turns into a suspect

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Speaker 1: that I don't I might not think as a suspect

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Speaker 1: right now, Tina More. I find that incredibly interesting, curious

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Speaker 1: that they need a search wrant for the dad's phone.

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Speaker 1: But maybe it is out of an abundance of caution,

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Speaker 1: crossing their tees and dotting their eyes. But under the law,

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Speaker 1: if the person gives you consent, gives you permission, Hey,

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Speaker 1: can I come in your house? Sure? Come on, an officer,

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Speaker 1: That's what consent is. Hey, we need to look at

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Speaker 1: your phone. Here, here it is. That's totally constitutional. Right

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Speaker 1: you think of somebody who you think, if you're completely innocent,

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Speaker 1: you turn your phone over. Right. So we have absolutely

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Speaker 1: confirmed that the dad was in Oregon with the older son, who,

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Speaker 1: by the way, apparently it's an incredibly talented pianist. He

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Speaker 1: is in Oregon at the time of the killing. Right. No,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen any any proof airline, you know, travel

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Speaker 1: records or anything like that. I mean, that's everything is

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Speaker 1: a little up in the area. Now. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of rumors. I'm seeing a lot of stories popping up

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Speaker 1: in different places that I can't confirm, and people are

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Speaker 1: telling me that's a rumor that's going around. Be careful.

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Speaker 1: So's it's very active investigation. So you're saying he may

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Speaker 1: not have been in Oregon. I haven't seen any any

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Speaker 1: proof of that. Well, neither have I. I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: it myself, but I've seen other pictures where he was

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Speaker 1: on other college tours with the older son, and it

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Speaker 1: is and it is said that he was in Oregon. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about the murder, horrific and brutal murder

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Speaker 1: of a fifty year old mother or saw you Gail

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Speaker 1: the mother of a seventeen year old and a thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old boy, murdered in her own home. To doctor

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Speaker 1: Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner, New York, doctor Boden,

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Speaker 1: when you get a multiple stab wound victim like this,

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Speaker 1: what does that indicate to you about the killer? We

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Speaker 1: know the killer is a man. Well, it's been a

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Speaker 1: rage reaction that has been mentioned. But what she also

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Speaker 1: dismembered as they report, Yes, go ahead, I'm hearing that

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Speaker 1: may not. She may not have been dismembered. It just

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Speaker 1: she had so many sab wounds on her body that

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Speaker 1: when people look inside the bag, that's what they thought.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, if a person is dismembered, saying a situation

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Speaker 1: like that, it's usually to fit into a play. It's

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Speaker 1: some kind of a device to remove the body. So

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Speaker 1: in the old days in New York City we had dismemberments.

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Speaker 1: When there's the old days in the sixties, and we'll

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Speaker 1: where people be put into steamer trunks or something and

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Speaker 1: sent to California or something, and they chop everything through

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Speaker 1: the dismemberment to fit into the steamer trunk or into

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Speaker 1: this double bag. If that's true. But I think that

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Speaker 1: clearly for a forensic pathology point of it would the

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Speaker 1: rage reaction as were mentioned, and it's by somebody who

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Speaker 1: knew her or was if the husband, for example, arranged

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Speaker 1: with somebody to do it. But if they arranged with somebody,

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't be going out and dragging the body in

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Speaker 1: the street. Exactly. Yeah, that's not a very good arrangement

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Speaker 1: if that's what the arrangement was. It sounds like a

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Speaker 1: kid's stuff. Yes it does. And it's definitely someone that

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Speaker 1: was not didn't have access to a car. Because Monique,

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Speaker 1: you're the private investigator, why would you hide the body

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Speaker 1: a couple of blocks from the home on the sidewalk

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Speaker 1: for a dog covers. Why don't you just put it

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Speaker 1: out at the mailbox. It's just doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: And I want to analyze this text because, you know,

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Speaker 1: the staging of this scene reminds me a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the John ben A Ramsey case, where the killer

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Speaker 1: of John Bena Ramsey felt so at home no fear

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Speaker 1: of being detected, that they killed John Benet, staged her

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Speaker 1: body and then sat there and wrote not just one

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Speaker 1: but a practice note and an actual note on the family,

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Speaker 1: writing on Patsy's pad using her pen, and left it

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Speaker 1: there in the home. I mean, if I had to

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Speaker 1: go in and surreptitiously kill or kidnap somebody, I would

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Speaker 1: try to be in and out. I wouldn't kick back

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Speaker 1: into dinner, put my feet up in front of the

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Speaker 1: fireplace and write a two page ransom note or three

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Speaker 1: page and a practice one. What just like in this case,

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Speaker 1: the person was so at home that, according to reports,

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Speaker 1: they not only murdered her but at least partially dismembered her,

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Speaker 1: stuffed her into bag, took her phone. I guess they

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Speaker 1: knew the code and send a text to the husband,

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Speaker 1: a very mysterious text. What do you make of that, Monique?

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Speaker 1: The person was definitely, you know, seemed very comfortable in

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Speaker 1: the home and like you said needed probably needed the

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Speaker 1: code to access her phone. You know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to make of the message that was sent. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think it was something about your wife sent me

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Speaker 1: to jail years ago, so it was in retaliation. But

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Speaker 1: you know, she had defensive wounds. How did the sun

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Speaker 1: not hear her fighting back? I mean, and it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, hours later, four or five hours later that

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Speaker 1: they saw, you know, the person rolling the bag down

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Speaker 1: the street. So there was a lot of time there

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Speaker 1: that this person was in the home. And there was

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Speaker 1: no breaking and entering, so the person was let in

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Speaker 1: or had some access into the home. So what about it,

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Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino this text message? Why bother with a text message?

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Speaker 1: Why why would you do that? Go in? Kill? Leave? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And the text message is I understand it as you

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Speaker 1: described it. You know, it says that you know, she

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Speaker 1: put me in jail years before, some years ago. Ye raseology, right,

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Speaker 1: And and it says you know something that I find peculiar.

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Speaker 1: Don't call the police. What what do you mean? Don't cry?

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna ignore. I chopped up wife in the suitcase.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna call police, right, I mean that you

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Speaker 1: know that that's kind of, uh, you know, a strange

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Speaker 1: thing to put in a text like this, and as

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Speaker 1: you said earlier, it certainly seemed like a contrived uh text. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, there has to be so much evidence though

426
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: in this house. Uh, you know, if she was killed

427
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: on the first floor, brought down into the basement, brought

428
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: back up in a duffel bag, you know, drug down

429
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: the street, there there has to be a lot of

430
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: evidence that we don't know about yet in this house.

431
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: And it and it certainly doesn't sound like a sophisticated

432
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: planned murder of an individual. You know, it just doesn't

433
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: seem to add up when you when you look at

434
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: the text that you look at the body being dragged

435
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: away in a bag, and you mix that in with

436
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: the rage in the type of murder again, it really

437
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: points to somebody inside of the house. Tina Moore joining me,

438
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: New York Post Police Bureau Chief. I'm hung up on

439
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: the text message because I think it's very revealing that

440
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: a killer would take the time to text message, would

441
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: know who to text message, would have access to her phone.

442
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: I guess you could do face recognition off her dead body,

443
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: but uh, why bother with the text message? That's telling

444
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: me a lot about the identity of the killer. No

445
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 1: one has been named a suspect. What do you make

446
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: of the text message and the draw your wife put

447
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: me behind bars sun quote some years ago. Well, the

448
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: dad talked about a text message. But like I said,

449
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: police sources say they haven't seen this message, so I

450
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: mean it doesn't exist. Was it a story up front?

451
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't know if there was

452
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: a text message. Yes, you know what, You're right. As

453
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: of this morning, police still have not seen the text

454
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: message exactly. Well, the husband, I believe he tweeted a

455
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: message at one thirty six am. I'm just wondering if

456
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: that was to establish some type of alibi. Okay, tell

457
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: me about that. Tina Moore joining us from the New

458
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: York Post. The dad, the husband wrote a text message

459
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: at one thirty in the morning. Yeah, he tweeted tweet

460
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: at one thirty in the morning. So yeah, that might

461
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: have been to establish from an alibi. But he later

462
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: took that down. What did he tweet? I think that

463
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: was the tweet about a book he had read. Um,

464
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: don't ask me the author. I can't remember. I was

465
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: top of my head. Yeah, I believe. I read that

466
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: he tweeted that he was out of town on a

467
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: college visit. You know, he made that clear, and that

468
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: he tweeted something about a book that he read regarding Putin.

469
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: I believed at one thirty in the morning. Yeah, one

470
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: thirty six am. So my initial thought was, you know,

471
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: was he trained to establish that he's out of town,

472
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: to make that clear. But then the tweet was removed.

473
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: Why was the tweet removed? I don't know. Only he

474
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: knows Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Angela Arnold Number one.

475
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 1: I rarely tweet at one thirty in the morning. I do.

476
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: I do. However, at one thirty in the morning, I

477
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: may be online reading crime stories and I want to

478
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: send it to crime Online or crime Stories at that moment.

479
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: But to tweet it out to the general public, I

480
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: mean waking up the producers or that's one thing, but

481
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: waking up the general public, you know, sending out a

482
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: tweet at one thirty in the morning, Not that that

483
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: would wake them up. But that's very unusual, is it? Not?

484
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: About a book you just read on Putin and then

485
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: deleting it. Why would you delete it? It's so unusual.

486
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: Nancy and it's again it speaks to what kind of

487
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: patterns do these people have in their lives. Is this

488
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: something they typically do or they typically tweeting each other

489
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: or tweeting out things at one thirty in the Morning's

490
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: it all looks it's very unfortunate, it all looks very fishy. Well,

491
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, to Matthew Mangino, a tweet does

492
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: not a murder make. We may think it's odd, but

493
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: for him it may not be odd at all. Tinamore

494
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: was at one thirty eastern or one any Oregon time?

495
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: You know what, I don't know that for sure. I

496
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: kind of assumed it was eastern. So if he's in Oregon,

497
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: you got what is that a two hour difference? So

498
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: they are Mountain are Pacific three the three hour, So

499
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: for him it wouldn't have been one thirty, which makes

500
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: it a little bit more normal and in fact very

501
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: normal if he's up in bed reading a book and

502
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: sends out a tweet about the book. But what I

503
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: find ought about it is that he then deleted it.

504
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: Why would you do that, Tina more very unusual, I'd say, so, Yeah,

505
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why he would delete that tweet because

506
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't really make much sense. He can still get

507
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: the tweet as not as if it's going to disappear

508
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: entirely like everything online. You know, I've heard two things, Tina,

509
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: more that the body was discovered by a jogger, and

510
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: that the body was discovered by a dog walker. Or

511
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: are they one and the same. I believe it's a

512
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: dog walker. I mean maybe he was jogging, you know,

513
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: but he was walking it. He was with a dog

514
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: for sure. No. I picked up that there was two

515
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: different people that found the bag, kind of same Teamously, somebody,

516
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: a walker came upon the bag and called nine one one,

517
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: and about the same time the person walking the dog

518
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: found the bag. Also, I heard there was two different people.

519
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: You know. I'm wondering how we know about the text.

520
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: The text was sent by the killer too, or saw

521
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: Ya's or saw Ya's husband, according to him. But as

522
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: of this morning, Tina Moore, your sources within the police

523
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: department are saying they have not seen the phone or

524
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: the texts. As of late last night they were saying

525
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: they hadn't seen that the text and they were subpoenaing

526
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: the phone, so something could have happened by now. Do

527
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: you know Tina Moore, Is this a gated community. No,

528
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: I don't believe it's a gated community. It's just it's

529
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: a nice area. Obviously, almost everybody has a doorbell ring,

530
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: so it's you know, people watch their watched the neighborhood closely,

531
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: people who lived there. I've read a couple of places

532
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: that there was it was a gated community. And the

533
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: reason I ask is that would be just one more

534
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: barrier now that you can't get around the gate, but

535
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: one more barrier for the killer to break through in

536
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: order to commit the murder. And we also understand Matthew

537
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: Mangina that there was no robbery and no sex attack

538
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: right well, and that's uh, you know, certainly indicative of,

539
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: you know, something that's unrelated to what we typically think

540
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: when someone breaks into a home and murder someone, you

541
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: know that it's for a sexual assault, or it's or

542
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: it's for a robbery. If neither of those exist, you know,

543
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: then that eliminates the randomness of this. This isn't just

544
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: something that happened because of a crime of opportunity. Somebody

545
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: comes by and decides to rob the house that ends

546
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: up killing the homeowner. You know, this again is a

547
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: crime of rage or passion that was targeted for this

548
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: specific person. And right now, you know, we have a

549
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: very limited pool of suspects because who else is going

550
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: to be able to have access to the home, who

551
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have to break in, who who knows the owner

552
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: in the home. You know, those are all issues that

553
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: really narrow the pool of potential suspects. This is what

554
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: his tech says. Mister Klein refers to an out of

555
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: state trip and a sense deleted tweet. He mentions hedge

556
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: funder Bill Browner's new book about Vladimir Putin. Quote, just

557
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: landed Portland, Oregon before evaluating ann Arbor again with my

558
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: seventeen year old son. Highly recommend freezing order at Bill

559
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: browder Man, I follow closely and admired blah blah blah

560
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: Russian equities to hedge funds like Hermitage. Okay, interesting, So

561
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: that's saying he just land and now I'm looking at

562
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: the killer pulling the body in the hockey bag on.

563
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: It's like a rollerboard, you know, Tina Moore. The killer

564
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: is right under a street light and you can see

565
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: a full moon in the background lighting up the whole neighborhood. Yeah,

566
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's really it's scary. It's eerie video

567
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: for sure. You know I'm looking at it and I'm

568
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: just thinking, Tina More. I mean, Tina, I know you're

569
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: the police bureau chief at the New York Post, But

570
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: if you put yourself in the mind of a killer,

571
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: if you wanted to kill somebody, would you drag their

572
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: body dismembered in a suitcase up the street? Well? I

573
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: don't have a car either, but I still wouldn't do that.

574
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I'd get one. I mean, yeah,

575
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: I get a neighbored Thanks Biden. You know what with

576
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: that comment, I'm gonna keep you in a medical examer's

577
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: office in the lamp somewhere getting able. Okay, I kind

578
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: of like that, doctor Boden. No sex attack, no robbery.

579
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: What does that tell you? You've seen so many homicides? Yeah,

580
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: I agree with everybody else that this is the kind

581
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: of an inside job, and I think that somehow the

582
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: husband is involved in it. No one has been named

583
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: a suspect or a person of interest. Let me just

584
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: be clear about that. Go ahead. Well, I'm just saying

585
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: just involved, just the emotionally upset about it. But that

586
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: there's so much information and clues at the scene of

587
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: where the body was found in the duffel bag and

588
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: at the scene in the house, two different scenes that

589
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: have lots of trace evidence, and I suspect they're going

590
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: to be able to make some kind of rest of

591
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: it in this in about twenty within twenty four hours

592
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: of this su resolved. There's so much evidence around. Okay,

593
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: I think I've got the answer. Glenn van Nostrand, out

594
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: walking his two Rhodesian ridge backs on Saturday morning, stumbled

595
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: across Miss Gail's body in the duffel bag. The dogs

596
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: became agitated as they near the bag. He opened it

597
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: up and thought at first it was a mannequin like

598
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 1: a crash test dummy, like equipment being used for something.

599
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it. Then he noticed or

600
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: Sawyah's black jeans and a waist, realized he was looking

601
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: at a body. Miss Gail was lying in a fetal position.

602
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: That's what we know. His two dogs pick up the

603
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: scent of blood patches and the cops follow it all

604
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: the way back to the home. Police are removing items

605
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: from the family home in boxes and black plastic bags,

606
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: including a large iMac computer to you, Matthew Mangino, what

607
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: do you make of that? Well, I think they're trying

608
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: to piece together the whereabouts of m Orsolia uh and

609
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: the telephone conversations that she had, maybe the text messages,

610
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: maybe the emails, instant messaging, all sorts of things that

611
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: she may have had to kind of recreate that night,

612
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: recreate the day's leading up to it. Also to look

613
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: and see what what what other people are doing on

614
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: the computer as well, what they're looking up, what they're

615
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: google and what they're trying to find, you know, how

616
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: how they you know, maybe the reservations to go to

617
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: Orgon with the Sun to visit another university. So this

618
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: is all important information and it's routine information that you're

619
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: going to look at in every case to try to

620
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: figure out a timeline and the activities of everybody involved

621
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: leading up into her. Tina Moore, I'm very curious. Video

622
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: surveillance sees or sawya at a bar and her basically

623
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: her neighborhood and queens and she sits there about forty minutes.

624
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: It appears as if she's waiting for someone that never shows. Yeah,

625
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: that's right, I mean, how could they tell that? But

626
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: just be looking at her. She's the loans at a bar.

627
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: Maybe she's looking around, I mean, she's not talking to anybody, right,

628
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: maybe looking back at the door, maybe looking at her watch,

629
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: seeing if anybody's coming in. But they could pick up

630
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: enough that they believe she was there looking for someone

631
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: that never showed up. Man, I'd want to get her

632
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: phone as well. Do we have any idea if that's

633
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: been recovered, Tina, I don't must be. I mean, I

634
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: would imagine they'd have that by now. Guys, we wait

635
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: as justice Unfold's tipline eight hundred five to seven seven

636
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: tips eight hundred five seven seven eight four seven seven

637
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,