WEBVTT - John Scher 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.280 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstar Podcast. My 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.680 guest today is John Cher. John, what's the status of 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.520 the independent concert promotion business today? 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:30.200 Post a pitiful Live Nation overwhelmingly dominates the entire concert business. 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.559 I believe they are monopoly. So far, the Justice Department 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:44.440 has not said that AGE is a much much smaller competitor. 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.240 And then there are you know, literally a handful of 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:53.360 of independent promoters. Really only a handful of ones that 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.959 were once major promoters as we were. I mean we 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:02.240 were for many many years OP ten promoters. One or 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.240 two years, we were the biggest promoters in the country. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:11.960 But what's happened is, you know, Live Nation. Look, their 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.080 model works for them. There's there's no question I did. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.399 I didn't. I wasn't a believer. They tried to buy 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.120 me a couple of times, and I was not a believer. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.959 I see now how they've been successful, and uh, you know, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.000 you got to take your hat off to Michael Rippino, 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:35.480 who you know, is running a public company that, despite 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.600 the fact that many people, including myself, think it's a monopoly, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:46.200 is is doing pretty well. So you know, it's very hard. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.240 I don't think somebody young in the business could repeat 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.480 what I've done or what any number of other major 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:59.120 promoters Jerry Michaelson, Greg Proolf and Jerry Wasserman the few 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.560 of us that are left, but do it. 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.200 Okay, what is the status of your promotion business at 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:07.800 this point? 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:14.799 You know, it's pretty good. We've become a small hale 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:20.840 theater company. For the most part, We've got only an 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:25.600 occasional arena show. We've got two sold out Tool shows 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:30.680 at Madison Square Garden next month. But arena shows, where 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:35.160 I used to do fifty sixty a year are down 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:40.000 to a handful. So you can't make the profit and 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:46.400 nor therefore be able to support the infrastructure that you need. 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.000 So you know, over the last ten years or so, 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.640 we've gotten smaller. We're still doing about one hundred shows 0:02:55.639 --> 0:03:01.160 a year, but almost exclusively anywhere from five hundred seaters 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.280 to six thousand seaters. 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:08.760 Okay, so you say you have Tool at Madison Square Garden. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.920 How did you get that? As opposed to Live Nation 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:13.120 or aging. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.440 Pure loyalty by the band in their agent. You know, 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:24.480 something that something that existed for most of my career. 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.960 If you play the act when they're small and you 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.480 keep doing a good job. They stay with you, especially 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:37.800 over the since the Ticketmaster merger with Live Nation, that 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.000 just isn't the case. I mean, I'll give you a 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.560 good example. I played Iron Maiden from the very very 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.960 beginning up through and including selling a mat at Madison 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:55.200 Square Garden and in the Meadowlands in a Nasau Coliseum 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:02.000 three tours ago. I got my Madison Square Garden date, 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.320 but I came to discover that I was one of 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.280 only two promoters in the country that got an arena. 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:13.000 Live Nation got all the rest of the dates. So 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.080 we did the show. It sold out. A couple of 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.280 years later, my phone rings and it's Rod Smallwood, who's 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:23.120 the manager of Iron Maiden, longtime manager, all right, and 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.760 he calls me a note the agent didn't call me. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.919 The manager called me and said, I'm really sorry, but 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.280 I can't give you a date on this tour. And 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.800 I said, did we do anything wrong? Said no, You've 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.600 always been great. But Live Nation made a point of 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.479 saying that if they don't get New York, they're going 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.039 to change the offer they made and it will cost 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.760 me millions of dollars. So I'm sorry, John, You're a 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:55.000 good guy, but we can't play for you anymore. So, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:59.919 right there, on a given Iron Maiden tour, which would happen, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.080 say every two or three years, I'd usually get four 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:09.880 or five such shows New York, New Jersey, Long Island, Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.839 those kinds of places. Now I've got none. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.080 Okay, let's do the math here. You're saying. Rod Smallwood 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.320 said if he didn't go with Live Nation, he would 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:25.760 lose millions of dollars. Now, if you look at all 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.719 the markets you were in, why couldn't he make those 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:34.159 millions and add them in to Live Nation? Where would 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.400 Rob have lost the millions? 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.039 Live Nation would have changed. I don't know what ultimately 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.560 they paid him her show or per tour, all right, 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.680 but he indicated to me that the offer that he 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:53.400 had if if they if they gave us New York, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:57.000 and there's a promoter since passed away in Florida, he 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.440 got Florida John Stall, that they would change the deal 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.640 to to lesser terms. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.560 Wow, so Rod called you. If you have this conversation 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.200 with other managers or agents, well. 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.000 In this case, the agent did never even called me. 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.320 Maybe Rod told him he called and and and that's 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:25.960 why I've had similar conversations, uh, with with the managers 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:31.200 and agents, you know, absolutely, you know, if it's an 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:36.240 act that we've had a long history with. For example, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.719 I played Peter Gabriel a lot of times early in 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.920 his career and actually promoted the first Genesis tour ever 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.480 in America. You know, I when when I saw he 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.040 was putting a record out, I called his agent, John 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.560 Marks and at w A and I said, I see 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.719 Peter's putting an album out. You know he usually tours 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.440 behind albums. I said, can we talk about some dates? 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.359 And he said nope. I said, uh, why not? He said, 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.880 We're going with Live Nation. I said, what if I 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.480 could put together a consortium? Nope, we did the last 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.800 tour with Live Nation. We're gonna we're gonna do it 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:18.400 again with them. 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.800 Just to stay on your point, how difficult would it 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:27.760 be for you to put together a consortium? 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:34.240 Modestly difficult? You know. Uh, there's four or five independent 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:39.920 still that you know. I know we'd join together another planet, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:47.440 jam Niederlander, Danny's Alasco. Uh, so yes, we could put 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.960 it together. We couldn't snap our fingers like Live Nation 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.160 and aeg can you know they can just snap their fingers, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.480 you know, and in an hour put together a tour. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.760 But you know, given a little bit of time, we 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:02.000 absolutely could do it. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.080 So let's say you put together the consortium, you put 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:10.920 together twenty five dates. Do you believe your offer can 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.720 be as good as Live Nations in raw dollars? 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:15.360 No? 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:17.440 And why is that? 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:23.160 Because? First of all, they try very hard to lobby 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:27.680 acts the only tour in America between like late April 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.160 or early May to maybe October, early October. Because they 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:38.480 own or control ninety maybe ninety five percent of all 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.240 of the amphitheaters. So when you get an act to 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:48.080 play their amphitheaters, besides the ticket sales, which famously some 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.360 acts have gotten one hundred percent of the ticket sales 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:57.600 and amphitheaters, they have all the ancillaries. They have sponsorship, 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.240 they have food and beverage, they have merching, and they 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:10.199 have ticketmaster fees. And so at the end of the 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.600 day they can break even at the door, even maybe 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.720 lose some money all rightum, and still make a lot 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:24.960 of money. I'm told from my deep throat in a 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:30.079 Live Nation that they average about thirty five dollars ahead 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.880 in ancillaries. So you know, let's say the average amphitheater 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.840 show does ten thousand people. Due to multiplication, they don't 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.200 need to make any money at the door. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.319 What if the act wants to play inside? 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.559 They buy tours that all the time that do inside. Now, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:56.160 they don't have as many ancillaries, but they certainly have 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:00.120 Ticketmaster and when they put a tour together intoor or 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.360 they do everything they possibly can to only play buildings 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:09.120 that use Ticketmaster. And probably I don't know this, but 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:14.600 probably they have deals with certain arenas that they go 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.400 to with a lot of shows, so they you know, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.160 they probably have a rebate situation. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:26.440 Okay, if you could snap your fingers, what would you 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.960 like the live music business to look like? 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.719 Well, I think there's a couple of things wrong. I mean, 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:40.080 the monopoly, the live nation monopoly is the first thing 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:45.480 that's wrong. You'd like to believe that the promoter in 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.640 a given market that can do the best job and 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.600 or has a relationship with the act and has played them, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:58.000 would have an opportunity to promote them and at least 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:03.679 match it. But the other issue that's very important is 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.840 that ticket prices have completely guns you know. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:17.200 Walkers, you know, the average arena or stadium P one 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:18.080 ticket prices. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.960 Top ticket prices are pretty normally close to one thousand dollars. 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:29.439 So what's happened to our concert industry is two things. Obviously, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.680 there's a lot of rich people in North America, so 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.320 you know, it's it's a trophy. They can tell their neighbors, 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.520 the neighbors that you know, they're sitting in the fifth row. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.120 And then of course the average fan all right, who 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.000 probably can't buy the P one tickets, but you know, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.400 when the when the P two, P three tickets are 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.400 down at you know, a couple of one hundred dollars, 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.920 they can buy them, but they probably can't go to 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.680 a couple of other shows that they would during the year. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:08.080 So I think that this monopoly is endangering artists development terribly. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.920 I think there are a lot of good young promoters 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.600 who promote in clubs in small halls, but they have 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.760 little chance of being able to expand their businesses beyond that. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:25.679 They basically have two choices. Stay modest, can make a 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.280 decent living in clubs and small halls, or try to 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:31.960 get Live nation or ag. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.240 To buy what do you say to Live Nations claim 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.840 that their market share is somewhere in the neighborhood of 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.319 sixty I'd have to look. I think they say fifty something. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:50.600 What would you say to that, Well, the question. 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:58.960 That's most relevant is what percentage of arena and stadium 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:04.520 and amphitheater headliners did they control? All Right, I've got 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:11.800 to then believe that that number is seventy and that 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.600 AEG's got another twenty or twenty five percent. It is 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:22.880 very rare these days that arena sized headliners, amphitheater sized headliners, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.280 stadium headliners don't play for one of the two of them. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.760 Tool is Is is a great example. They've stayed oyled 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.679 to me and they've stayed oil to you know, a lot, 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.160 a lot of independence. Diana Ross has stayed very loyal 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.440 and last time ran in New York, they made a 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.240 real run at Diana Ross, who I've been promoting for 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.880 forty years, and it forced me to have to, you know, 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.400 pay a larger guarantee. But it's all out, so you know, 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.480 it was fine, all came out in the wash. So 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.040 but at the end of the day, uh, you know, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:08.839 when when the when when the Justice Department first investigated 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.560 Live Nation, they claim that yes they are and then 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.800 they owned a lot of the amphitheaters. Now they own 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:21.680 almost all of them. Uh. And they they claimed that 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.760 the acts could always choose to play indoors. But as 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:30.720 I've explained a minute ago, it's not there. Because if 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.240 I do a show at the Prudential Center in New York, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:39.800 Madison Square Garden, uh, you know, Buffalo Memorial Auditorium, any 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.640 any any of the venues that we were going, I 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.840 don't get any of the ancillaries. The buildings keep the ancillaries. 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.560 Did they give you? You know, the buildings try to 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.840 give you a little taste usually they do, but not 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:58.760 a big taste versus Live Nation can say wait until May, 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.760 all right before you go out, or maybe end of 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.960 April and start down south and and you know, we'll 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.120 give you one hundred percent of the box office. Given 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.760 ninety percent of the box office, whatever it is, that's 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.200 nothing that you can do indoors. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.200 Okay, let's just nail indoors, because certainly there are a 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.640 lot of tours that go out during the winter or 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:28.080 even play arenas during the summer. So you compare the 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.880 economics of an arena date that you promote as opposed 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.440 to Live Nation promoting well. 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.760 An arena date that an independent like us does. There, 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.360 you know, are basic expenses, the guarantee to the act 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:54.120 first and foremost, the expenses of doing of doing the show, rent, advertising, staffing, 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.080 et cetera. All right, so you've got to pay to 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.880 guarantee put tickets on ill. You got to pay the 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.440 guarantee first, and you got to pay all the other 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.280 expenses and after. At that point you start to potentially 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.200 make a profit. And often the artist makes percentage money 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.000 at the amphitheaters. They don't have to do any of that. 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:17.560 They don't pay rent to themselves. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:19.520 No, no, no, no, I got that. I got there. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:25.640 But Live Nation also plays dates in arenas, yes, like you, Yes, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.480 So tell me where the economics differ there. 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:30.119 They own ticketmaster. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.960 Okay, let's let's stop for a second. If you could 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:44.040 snap your fingers. You claim that Live Nation is a monopoly. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.080 If you were to break up a monopoly, what would. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:54.720 It look like? Well, you know, only the only one 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.920 who can really break up a monopoly is the government. 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.880 What would it look like? You know, they would perhaps 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.200 be forced to sell off a certain number of amphitheaters 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.720 that people like me could could pick up. Actually, there's 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.800 two amphitheaters that we built that they that they have 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:19.760 now one outside of Buffalo, one in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Uh 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.840 so that that you know, that's that's number one, uh 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:31.280 number number number two. Uh the whole uh guarantee idea 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.160 of what percentage of the growth they can they can 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.840 uh they can give the act, all right, you can't, 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.840 as I just explained, you can't do it indoors, all right. 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:49.960 So uh if they got broken up selling off say 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:55.760 half of the amphitheaters to other people. Number one number two, 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.240 I don't want them to. You know, they don't have 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:04.080 to uh divet from Ticketmaster. They simply have to uh 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.880 let in in you know, the with buildings that they 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:14.199 have exclusively Ticketmaster, which are a huge majority of the 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:20.679 arenas in his country. They and they are exclusive. So 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.680 if I go to Madison Square Garden with two sold 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:31.600 out tools shows, the Ticketmaster fees are enormous. They scalped 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.040 their own tickets. They have this thing called t M plus, 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:41.879 but they've also been caught scalping their tickets. So uh, 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:47.160 you know, if if I had the freedom, I would 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.520 go into Madison Square Garden or the Prudential Center or 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.359 or any other venue, and I would use a different 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.040 ticketing company. There are a lot of them right there, 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.879 all right, but none of them have anything close to 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:04.800 the volume that that ticketmaster has. So those are the 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.119 two main things. If we can be entrepreneurial with with 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:16.399 with the ticket providers, and if uh we can break 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:23.480 the the sort of uh gatekeeping of the amphitheaters, uh, 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.080 you know, that would make a business such as mine 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:28.960 much much healthier. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.840 Okay, let's say you do a date a building that 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.399 has an exclusive ticket master contract? Don't you share in 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:38.000 the fees? 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:41.120 Very rare? 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.159 If you do share in the fees, Why would that happen? 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.800 Well, it hasn't happened in a long time. I mean 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.800 you know there there. You know, there was a lot 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.840 of years that we would do and in the main 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.840 AMP in the main arenas that that we worked at, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.120 you know, fifteen twenty shows a year. We essentially were 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:09.520 a franchise. And so if you guarantee a lot of 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.640 shows like I did at the old Meadowlands Arena for example, 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.600 all right, you had a leverage so that you could say, hey, 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:18.800 I need a piece of you know, I need to 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:20.880 bring my own ticketing in or I need a piece 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.399 of what you're getting kicked back, all right, So you know, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.000 but I can't do that volume anymore. And so the 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.560 arena is that I, you know, used to do that 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.840 with I. You know, if I'm doing two, three four 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.040 shows a year versus twenty or twenty five, I've got 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:43.040 no leverage whatsoever. And then you know, the contract with 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.840 almost all the buildings includes the use of TM plus, 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.360 all right. Every single show that we do, we tell 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.760 the buildings we don't want TM plus. But what I 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.280 found out a number of years ago was even if 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.480 we and he acts, as long as the agent or 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.560 the manager will will confirm in writing that they don't 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.320 want TM plus, all right, they take it down except 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.520 for when the show becomes ninety five percent sold out 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.200 or some number like that, and then without your permission, 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:25.199 they put it on on Ticketmaster on TM plus. And 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:30.040 suddenly where sometimes you look at a show that you 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.320 know was almost sold out, and there was only saying 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.159 a given arena with a capacity of let's call it 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:42.600 fifteen thousand, and you only saw as a tool right 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.959 now that there's a few hundred tickets left in each category. 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.399 Once they turn on TM plus, all of a sudden 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:56.399 miracle of miracles, there's two thousand tickets available. Now. They'll 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:03.000 tell you that independent scalpers, and it may be, but 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.639 it's also them. It's also them. And they, you know, 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.399 they've got court scalping tickets. I mean they, you know, 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.440 they got caught with Metallica, which you know, you could 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.040 you could have knocked me over with a feather when 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:19.240 I found out that that Metallica was complacent with Ticketmaster 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:23.119 scalping tickets. You know, two best managers in the business 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.120 as far as I'm concerned. You know, I don't think 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.040 they had a lot of control over their clients in 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:35.080 this regard. So you know, you simply can't compete with 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.879 the money they make Ticketmaster. And look, when I first 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.080 got into the business, actually when I first got into business, 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.600 there was no computerized ticket in at all. But early 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.000 on there was ticket tron and I you know, I 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:50.440 done off the top of my head, but I think, 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.240 you know, the ticket tron feed was probably a buck, 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.400 you know, maybe it was two bucks all right. Now 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:03.000 it can be twenty five dollars of which the promoter 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:07.880 gets none up. But if your ticketmaster, sometimes they'll make 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.480 more money on one of my shows than I will 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:13.720 on the show at no risk. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.280 Okay, let's stay with your tool shows. Ay, do you 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.560 have any idea with the off the top of your 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:23.920 head what the fees are on the tool tickets? 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:26.679 I do, but not off the top of my head. 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:33.040 Okay, let's put it this way. Of the shows that 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:37.360 you do in an arenas of the overall price, what 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.119 would you say your fees percentage was. 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:47.639 The ticketing fees? Yes, I'd say somewhere between ten and 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:51.119 twenty dollars. And for bigger shows to hire the ticket 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:56.399 prices to hire the service charges, which makes no sense 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.760 from a business perspective except for them. But for a fan, 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:05.000 Ticketmaster does nothing more to sell a fan a ticket 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:09.600 if the ticket's twenty five dollars or whether it's one 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:16.879 thousand dollars, same process, same computer use. But the industry 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:24.560 has let them get away with it, and there's no 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:25.520 looking back right now. 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:37.880 Okay. Ticketmaster might say that the majority of the fees 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:41.720 go to the building, that's something you agree with. 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.680 I don't think it's reasonably close to the majority. I 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:52.200 think the buildings get rebates, no question, the buildings get 0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:59.880 huge advances, and especially when they're you know, municipally owned 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.680 buildings or state owned buildings, they often need the money, 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.320 so they basically get bribed into making a Ticketmaster deal. 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:14.480 And that advance is against a certain percentage of of 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:17.840 the service charge. But I would not think it was 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:20.240 a majority or even close. 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:23.040 A live nation would say otherwise, But we don't have 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:25.480 the facts in front of us, so let's move on 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:30.800 from that. How do you feel about these exclusive deals 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.280 with buildings with Ticketmaster? To begin with? 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:36.560 I think it's terrible. I think it's it's it's it's 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:42.720 you know, helping towards the ruination of of of the 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:46.960 of the marketing of the concert business. You know, if 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:49.880 we could, if if if a promoter could come into 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.720 a building and use somebody other than Ticketmaster, all right, 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:57.480 Number one, the service charges would be less much less, 0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:01.560 all right? And number two, I think the TM plus 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.200 and the scalping would be reduced tremendously. 0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:10.159 Okay, you mentioned these municipal buildings that need the money, 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:14.919 So if we get rid of the advances, what are 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.000 these buildings going to say? If we got rid of exclusives, 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:21.560 we're taking money directly out of the bottom line of 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:22.560 these buildings. 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:28.840 Yes, but you see, they still can. In other words, first, 0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:33.760 if they were opened, if the if the ticketing was 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:38.520 open to the promoters, all right, certainly Live Nation would 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:44.320 use Ticketmaster. Certainly AG would use their system, all right. 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:49.199 But the independent promoters, all right, would probably go to 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:55.960 other independent companies, all right, And the buildings could say, Okay, look, 0:26:56.000 --> 0:27:00.600 we get x amount of dollars from Ticketmaster, not from 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:02.600 an advanced point of view, but from a per ticket 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:06.360 point of view, and to let you use your own 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:09.240 ticketing company, you've got to match that. Now, I'm not 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:11.840 sure that would be legal, but at least it would 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:12.320 be something. 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:18.840 Okay, let's go back a step. Yes, like with Taylor Swift, 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:23.080 they said they turned off TM plus. You know from 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:26.880 personal experience that when you and the act have told 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.480 them to turn off TM plus, they have turned it on. 0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:33.760 At the end. Yes, I don't know whether they did 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.240 a Tails Swift because I didn't promote any I've thought. 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.080 Always said, I know the only reason about Taylor swhich 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:40.760 is I know that she said to turn it off. 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:44.560 I can't tell you what happened there, but I'm using 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.119 an example. You have done shows where the promoter in 0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:50.199 the act, usually the acts and control anyway, saying no 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:53.520 TM plus. And there has been TM plus. 0:27:53.560 --> 0:28:00.000 Yes, not from the beginning, always towards the end, always 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:00.800 towards the end. 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:06.119 Now this is something theoretically you could document. 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:13.639 Oh yeah, oh absolutely. Look I'll go back. I'll go 0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:19.760 back to uh Diana Ross. About five or six years ago, 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:25.840 we're playing Radio City. We say no TM plus. Diana's 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:32.600 agent puts into writing no TM plus. Show sells very 0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:35.000 very quickly, and we're holding the next day for a 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:44.120 second show. Right, we're now ninety five percent sold out. 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:48.360