1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics. Well, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: best minds, and sharks are swimming down the streets of 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: Fort Myers, Florida. What an excellent show we have today. First, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk to Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and he's 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: gonna talk to us about his concerns about authoritarianism on 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: the rise in America and of course income inequality in America. 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Susan Glazer and Peter Baker about 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: their new book, The Divider Trump in the White House, 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: and they're gonna talk about some of the more interesting 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: things they found writing this book. But first we have 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,319 Speaker 1: the one and only Dhalia Lithwick, who's of course an 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: editor at Slate and the author of her latest book, 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: Lady Justice, Women, The Law and the Battle to Save America. 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: Welcome to Best Politics, Dahlia. Thank you, Lolly, thank you 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: for having me. We're so happy to have you. The 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: book is Lady Justice. We're gonna talk about other stuff too, 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: but let's first talk about the book. So you sort 19 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: of find the women who were the actual bulwark against 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: Trump and his assault on democracy, right, Yeah, I mean 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: I think I tried to. And there were, you know, 22 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: thousands and tens of thousands of women lawyers who were 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: kind of holding up the sky for the four Trump 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: years and the years that have followed, and I just 25 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: wanted to tell the stories of a couple of them, 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: both to say, holy cow, we sometimes don't take credit 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: for the winds and all the ways in which Donald 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: Trump was like trammeled in courts, but also to say 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: we can keep doing this. It's hard, but these women 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: are all around us. They're doing it every day. There 31 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: are a lot of different women in this story, but 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: let's talk about Sally Yates because that is sort of 33 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: one of the clearest moment of like the kind of 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: a woman, you know, sort of doing what she could 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: to try to stop Trump. Can you talk about that? So, 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: Sally Yates was the acting Attorney General under Donald Trump 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: in the first days of his administration. I think she 38 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: knew she was just going to be a holdover from 39 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: the Obama administration and a placeholder Jeff Sessions was going 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: to take the job. She thought it would be just 41 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: long lunches and not much action, and then just days 42 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: out of the gate, she gets just shellacked with the 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: travel ban, which was not sent to her for vetting. 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Nobody knew about it. She read about it on her 45 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: phone like the rest of us. And she was supposed 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: to be sending d o J lawyers into courtrooms to 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: defend it. And she felt that it was rooted in 48 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: religious animus towards Muslims, in violation of the Constitution. She 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: felt that it violated due process protections of the Constitution. 50 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: And she did the thing that not nearly enough people did, 51 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: which is just say, oh, hell no, I'm not going 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: to put the in perimeter of the Justice to partment 53 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: on a thing that I think is unlawful. Most of 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: the people either got fired, like from the toilet, or 55 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: they you know, wrote bestsellers saying that they were heroes, 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: or they slunk off into the night. But I think 57 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: for me, she is kind of a emblematic of what 58 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: rule of law actually means, which is protecting not just 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: the law, but the integrity of the Justice Department, even 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: at immense personal cost. Yeah, that is a really good point. 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: I just am curious, like what did happen to her 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: in the end, Like what does she do now? She 63 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: in private practice? Yeah, she's at a firm, and she 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: does a whole bunch of work on issues that matter 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: to her, including mental health stuff and depression. But I 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: think that she is another example of this phenomenon. I 67 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: trace in the book Stacy Abrahams, who is the very 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: last chapter in the book, you know, was asked if 69 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: she wanted to be Biden's running mate. She refused, you know, 70 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: asked if she was interested in a seat on the 71 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Wasn't interested, Just kind of wants to go 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: back and do her job. And Stacy Abrahams is that. 73 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: And I think Sally Ates is that. And a lot 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: of these people, like given the opportunity to scale up 75 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: and get super famous and beyond mugs and uh, you know, 76 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: topebags just chose to stay in the trenches and keep working. 77 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: Would you go for the mugs and the toe bags 78 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: or would you stay in the trenches and keep working. 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: I'm quite leary of the bugs and the toe bag. 80 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: I had an RBG advent candle, uh that someone had 81 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: given to me that that I in facted um Burn 82 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: when she died. But I think that the kind of 83 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: mugs and the toe bags and the candles and the 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: whole Robert Mueller is gonna save us. Now, Adam Schiff 85 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: is gonna save us. Oh wait, Mark Garland is gonna 86 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: save us. Is just a way of not like digging 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: in and doing the work. I mean, I like mugs. 88 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: I think they're good for coffee, But I just think 89 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: democracy is not super well served by the top bag 90 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: industrial row complex. Yeah. I think that's the last three 91 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: five seven years have taught us anything. Right In this book, 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: you grapple with your own I want to say kind 93 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: of revelations about me too. Will you talk to us 94 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about that? Is that okay to ask 95 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: you about it? Yeah? No, I wrote about it. I'm 96 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: only sort of orthogonally talking about me too. I'm certainly 97 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: in the chapter about it talking about a federal judge, 98 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: Alex Kazynski, who was the chief judge of the Ninth 99 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: Circuit Court of Appeals. He was a famous feeder judge. 100 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: If you clerk for him, he had a really good 101 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: chance of going on to clerk at the Supreme Court. 102 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh was one of his clerks. And I just 103 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: talked about the fact that you know, it was an 104 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: open secret in the federal judiciary and law schools around 105 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: the country. Everybody knew that he showed porn to his clerks, 106 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: that he spoke inappropriately to female clerks, that he had 107 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: this very hyper sexualized way of talking to women, and 108 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: nobody did anything. For years and years. There was just 109 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: this kind of culture of you know, oh, boys will 110 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: be boys. And in seventeen, one of his former clerk's, 111 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: Heidi Bond, came forward and finally on the record, said 112 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: what had happened to her. Another woman who clerked for 113 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: a different judge on the Ninth Circuit, Emily Murphy, came forward. 114 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: Eventually Leah Lipman, a bunch of other women came forward. 115 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: And I had to grapple with the fact that I 116 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: had known all this. I'd known because as a clerk, 117 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: I knew it on the Ninth Circuit, but I've known 118 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: as a reporter and as somebody who sat next to 119 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: him on panels. And I ended up writing a piece 120 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: at the time putting my name on the list of 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: women who were willing to put their names forward, but 122 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: with just deep sadness about the fact that we keep 123 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: these secrets and that years later people will still say 124 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: to me, oh, everybody knew about him, and my responses 125 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: will put why did it require a handful of women 126 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: to do something? And so it looks like it's a 127 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: meat to chapter. And at the time, I think it 128 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: was perceived as a me too, and it was much 129 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: more just me thinking through power structures in which we 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: all become complicit and hope somebody else does the work 131 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: to fix it. Right. No, it's true. I just relate 132 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: to that so much. I mean, I think some of 133 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: it too, as we were of a generation where we were, 134 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: or at least I feel it was not clear to 135 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: me that we had that kind of power. I think 136 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: that's right. And at the same time, somewhere in my 137 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: piece that I wrote, when I finally kind of put 138 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: my name in as somebody who could attest to this behavior, 139 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: I said, how is it possible that I'm, you know, 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: almost fifty, I'm at the peak of my career, I 141 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: get invited to brief Supreme Court justices and I still 142 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: didn't think I had the power like who does. And 143 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot in the book about the failures of 144 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: me too and how we need to have actual processes, 145 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: not just for the Alex Kazynski's, but for the Brett 146 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: Kavanaughs and everyone else. But I think that there is 147 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: a piece of it that asking Christine Blasi Ford to 148 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: all the work of coming forward, asking Anita Hill to 149 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: do all the work, and then failing to support them 150 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: because power structures won't change, is such a betrayal of 151 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: what they tried to do. Oh yeah, I mean such 152 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,119 Speaker 1: a betrayal. And I think about that all the time. 153 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: I can't talk about it, but I think there's more 154 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: coming in the world of brick avanag that will that 155 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: I think will bear out some interesting stuff. I think 156 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: what you're saying is so important. Now talk to me 157 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: about We are coming up on another fucking Supreme Court session. Yeah, 158 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: it's gonna be I think. I think that is the 159 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: correct descriptor. I think that you've nailed it. I mean, 160 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that went wrong. I feel like 161 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: you and I talked about this in the summer, but 162 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: Dobbs kind of took all the attention last term. It's 163 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: not that Dobbs was inconsequential overturning Rope, but as a consequence, 164 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: I think we missed that. Oh, they massively expanded gun rights. Oh, 165 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: they massively shrank the wall between church and state. Oh, 166 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: they tried to kneecap the e p A like it 167 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: was such a bad terror. They were all terrible, and 168 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: I think that all of the stuff they didn't manage 169 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: to get to laster. They're doing this term and so 170 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: affirmative action is on the docket in higher education, this 171 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: voting rights case out of Alabama, the existential voting case, 172 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: that is this independent state legislature doctrine that would give 173 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: state legislatures complete and total, unchecked plenary power to decide 174 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: election procedures. So all of this is, you know, there's 175 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: a follow on to the Cake Baker case um of 176 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: somebody different, a web designer refusing services to same sex marriages. 177 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: So it's almost nothing that isn't on the table, and 178 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: they have not by any means finished the docket. They're 179 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: gonna take a run at the Indian Child Welfare Act, 180 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: so there's very little, and the Clean Water Act. How 181 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: much do you want to cry? It's terrible, And we've 182 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: got this kind of six three supermajority juggernaut that I 183 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: once believed, in error with approval rating might be a 184 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: little reluctant to hit the gas and go. And I 185 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: was wrong, and I will continue to be wrong because 186 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: I don't think they care at all about approval ratings 187 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: or what the rest of us say or think about them. No, 188 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean they're out of control. I'll be curious to see. 189 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: And I think curious is not the right phrase because 190 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: the stakes are so high. So I don't want to 191 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: make it sound like I'm horse race journalism journalism ming 192 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: here because I'm not. And I understand that people's lives 193 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: and livelihoods and and all of their rights are on 194 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: the table here for the Supreme Court to funk with. 195 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: But I will be interested to see if Republicans get 196 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: hurt in the mid terms by Dobbs, if then Roberts 197 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: is able to take more control of the Court or not. 198 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: You know, those guys know they have a lifetime appointment. 199 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, And I think the misapprehension we all have 200 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: is that that John Roberts has some power to take. 201 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's on the losing end. He's 202 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: right on these five fours when there are big questions 203 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: about the legitimacy of the court. Hillside with the liberals, 204 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: but then he's lost. And I think that this five 205 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: justice block, you know, with occasional defections from Amy Coney, 206 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: Barrett and Brett Kavanaugh is completely unbothered by the things 207 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: that worry John Roberts, these legitimacy questions, public opinion questions. 208 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that Sam Alito flying out 209 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: to Rome after Dobbs to spike the football is a 210 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: pretty good and not to mention Clarence Thomas his wife, 211 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: who is you know, apparently immune. I just don't think 212 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: that even tiny adjustments to their conduct that they could 213 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: make so as not to look like they're out of control, 214 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: they don't make them, right. I mean, it'll be interesting 215 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: to see. I mean, I think that if Democrats hold that, 216 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: you know how Senate and the presidency, then Biden is 217 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: going to have to do something about this court and 218 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: he is going to hate it. I mean, it's interesting 219 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: because he convened his Blue Panel Court Reform Commission, and 220 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: they met and they studied, and they produced an enormous 221 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: and I think worthy piece of research about what could 222 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: be done, and Biden still won't talk about court expansion, 223 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: and nothing has been done with the recommendations. As best 224 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: as I understand, I think it was just kind of 225 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: an exercise in kicking the can down the road. But 226 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: I don't think it was a meaningful exercise in now 227 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: we are you know, there's some momentum in some public 228 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: will to do something. Now we're going to seriously and 229 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: meticulously have a conversation about what can be done. And 230 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be adding seats. There's a whole 231 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: bunch of you you could do, term limits, you can do. 232 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: You know, there there are very smart people who are 233 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: making arguments about stripping the Court of the ability to 234 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: for instance, you know, change voting rules. There are things 235 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: that can be done up to and including I think 236 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: some of the strongest material in the Commission report is 237 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: about ethics reforms and transparency and not like doing crap 238 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: on the shadow docket at midnight and not failing to explain. 239 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: So this is all stuff that we should be seriously 240 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: talking about, and we should have been talking about it 241 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: ten years ago. But I really do hope that for 242 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: people who feel as though, oh my god, we're just screwed, 243 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: you know, we live in servitude to the six to 244 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: three court for all time, can understand that there are 245 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: really smart proposals out there that we're not talking about 246 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: very much. Yeah, I hope that that is really number 247 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: one on the agenda if Democrats can keep the branches though, 248 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, we'll say, I'm just curious what other sort 249 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: of you know. I always ask people in this because 250 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: I actually am really interested in this. As someone who 251 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: has written books before. I was feel like, when you 252 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: write a book, you have this, you kind of learn 253 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: from it. I mean, what did you learn from writing 254 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: this book? I think that when I started this book 255 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: was seventeen and I just wanted to create kind of 256 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: a historical record, right to say this happened. It was terrible. 257 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: These amazing women fought back in one and I think 258 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: in a sense, I thought I was just recording history, 259 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, putting down markers about some big legal fights 260 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: that shouldn't have been one but were one. And then 261 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: I think Dobbs happened, and I realized I wasn't just 262 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: writing history. I was writing what I hope is a 263 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: blueprint for going forward. And you know, each of the 264 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: women that I profile, first of all, was not super 265 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: confident she was doing the right thing, but didn't have 266 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot of time to workshop. It just leapt in 267 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: some of them. I mean Robbie Kaplan and Karen Dunn 268 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: who fought the Nazis and white supremacists who invaded Charlottesville. 269 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: It took them four years to get their case to trial, 270 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: but they won and they got a twenty six million 271 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: dollar judgment, and it was hard work. They dusted off 272 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: the KKK Act, you know, which now as being used 273 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: against January six insurrectionists. So I think that what I 274 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: thought I was writing was history, and what I hope 275 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: I am writing is some version of the playbook, which 276 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: is we have power. Democracy is not without these amazing 277 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: levers and that you know, the last three chapters are 278 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: all about vote suppression and gerrymandering and all the things 279 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: that we would need to fix to have a meaningful 280 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: representative democracy. But they're all fixable. And I think what 281 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: I was hoping is that folks would read it and say, 282 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: it just is a choice to feel like you are 283 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: powerless and that you've lost. It is also a choice 284 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: to do what all these women did in the face 285 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: of awful, awful you know, family separation policies and the 286 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: Muslim ban, and they just were like, no, I went 287 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: to law school, I'm super smart, I have a blue book, 288 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: I have a pen, I'm going to court. And so 289 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: I think I want this to be a book that 290 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of bolsters us in this moment of feeling really 291 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: fragile and helps us look around at those women in 292 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: Kansas and the women in Michigan who got abortion, you know, 293 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: onto a ballot initiative. It's everywhere, and I want us 294 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: to feel that before we make claims about being powerless 295 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: under the law, we can realize it also could be 296 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: an instrument for tremendous focus and power, and that we 297 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: really have to pick it up and use it that way. So, 298 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's really important. I have to say, 299 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: as like the daughter of a feminist, it's fucking to 300 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: say this sentence. Just every time, it just I die 301 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: a little bit. So we're in post row America. There's 302 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: no world we never get row back, right, there's never 303 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: there's no way to unfunck this right, not unless we 304 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: do some of that serious structural court reform stuff we 305 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: talked about. But I think again, you know, in Michigan 306 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: and California, in New York, I think we are seeing 307 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: efforts to shore up reproductive freedom. And I guess I 308 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: would also say, as long as we don't care about 309 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: state houses and Jerrymander red states, and you know the 310 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: fact that Alabama is on the docket this year for Jerrymander, 311 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: all of these red states. Again, the stuff is fixable. 312 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: It's just like structural democracy work. It's eye crossing, lee boring. 313 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: But I think that putting all of our eggs in 314 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: the i'man at Ruth Bader games were exchanged in a 315 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: retired basket is like, not democracy work. It's just grumpiness. 316 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: So I'm just for like, you know what, if you 317 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: care about your you know, state houses in Michigan, now, 318 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: that's a good time to vote like it. I think 319 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: that that's how we get unfucked. And it's not glamorous, 320 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: and there's no toepag. Well maybe there's a toag. I 321 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: think we should we should brand the that's how we 322 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: get unfucked toepag and then you and I can retire 323 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: with millions in a beach house. Okay, yes, because because honestly, 324 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: there's no better way to make money then through toad bags. 325 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: That in podcasting, I think are the two sees the cornerstones. 326 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: Please come back and join us soon. It's always a joy. 327 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Bernie Sanders is the senior 328 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: Senator from Vermont. Welcome to Fast Politics. Senator Bernie Sanders. 329 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: Great to be with you. I'm so excited to have 330 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: you here. The first thing we have this midterm less 331 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: than six weeks away, Republican Party seems to go have 332 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: gone full on authoritarian. Can you talk to me about 333 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: the anxiety that the rest of us have. Well, the 334 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: anxiety is justified. I think you know, what we are 335 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: debating right now in this country is not healthcare, education, 336 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: or even climate change. What we're talking about, in the 337 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: deeper sense is whether or not the United States remains 338 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: the democracy and whether we continue having free and fair 339 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: and open elections. And clearly our republic in colleagues are 340 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: looking to countries like Hungary and other authoritarian societies to 341 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: try to undermine the very foundations of American democracy. So 342 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: if the question is should we be concerned, the answer 343 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: is absolutely we should be. So this Electoral count Act 344 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: is in the Senate right now. It has some Republican support. 345 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that auto, Well, yeah, Look, I 346 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: think the goal here is to prevent another January sixth, 347 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: where you have you know, this this process by which 348 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: the Senate has to confirm the election results state by state, 349 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: and this hopes to address that. But why would say MAULDI. 350 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: What is a deeper question right now is for us 351 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: to ask a very simple question that is not asked 352 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: often enough, and that is, how does it happen that 353 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: millions of working class people used to support Democratic candidates 354 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: back in f DRS time, Harry Truman's time, JF Case time, 355 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: are now voting Republican And how does that occur at 356 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: a time when you have Republican party which is pretty 357 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 1: open say hey, we want to cut Medicare and Medicaid 358 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: and the Affordable Care Act. We want to throw millions 359 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: of people off of the health insurance. I haven't want 360 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: to give huge tax breaks to the rich. We don't 361 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: even recognize in some cases the reality of climate tention. 362 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: How does it happen that you're seeing a significant number 363 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: of white working class Americans supporting Republicans, more and more 364 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: Latinos supporting Republicans, and a growing number of flax supporting Republicans. 365 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: And I think that takes us to an area which 366 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: again does not get the discussion that it needs, and 367 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: that is who is speaking up for the needs of 368 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: a declining middle class, who is speaking off for a 369 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: struggling working class, who is speaking off with people in 370 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: our society who has the guts to take on a 371 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: Bigner class which is doing phenomenally well, which is bouring 372 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars intellecttions, where we are seeing 373 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: an unprecedented level of concentration of ownership, where you've got 374 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: three world ree firms that the major stockholders, and hundreds 375 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: and hundreds of American companies. So you're looking at an 376 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: economy now, in a society in which the people on 377 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: top of doing phenomenally well, ordinary people are falling further behind. 378 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: And they look at Washington, d C. And no one 379 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: is talking about their needs, not knowing, but you know, 380 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 1: relatively few people. And when you have that kind of 381 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: situation and you know, I'm second top of politics. Give 382 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: me somebody who's gonna get something done, a strong and 383 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: I don't care about the courts, I don't care about 384 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: the law, I don't care about rules, I don't care 385 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: about democracy. I want something money. And I think at 386 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: the end of the day, if we're gonna save American democracy, 387 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna need to have a government responding to the 388 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: needs of working people who today significant degree field ignoyed. 389 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: One of the things you did really well with their 390 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: presidential runs. Is that you were able to energize working people. 391 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: How do Democrats win those voters? Well, you don't what 392 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: They're gonna have to have the guts to tell the truth. 393 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: That's the thought. And if you're going around thinking, what 394 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: are the economy is doing really good and we have 395 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: accomplished this and we have accompanied you know what, Molly, 396 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: nobody believes that. What they see is they can't afford childcare, 397 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: they can't afford healthcare, they can't afford to the college, 398 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: they can't afford housing. Their jobs. You know, maybe they're 399 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: making twelve fifteen dollars an hour. You can't live on 400 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: that if you're old. You know that half of the 401 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: people sixty five or older in this country are trying 402 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: to get buying twenty dollars a year. Can't do that. 403 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: So you gotta be honest and say, look, this is 404 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: what is going on. We are the richest country in 405 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: the history of the world, but it is not acceptable. 406 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: You've got the three people are more wealth than the 407 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: bottom half of American society. Yes, the Democratic body is 408 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: prepared to take on the billionaire class and create an 409 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: economy me that works for all. Now that sounds like 410 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: simple rhetoric. It is not. What that means is think 411 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: about what America would be like, Molly, if you had 412 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: a healthcare system to guarantee healthcare to all people, that 413 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: did what virtually every other major country does. When you 414 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: go to a doctor, when you go to the hospital, 415 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: you know what your bill is? In Canada right now, 416 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: you spent two months in the hospital. You come out, 417 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: do you know what your bill is? You know? Zero? 418 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: It's zero, not a nickel. All right. Half of the 419 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: bankruptcies in this country are associated with healthcare. You have 420 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: forty five million people, and I know if the president 421 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: is trying to deal with dealing with student that kids 422 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 1: can't afford to go to college. So, in other words, 423 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: to answer your question, the Democratic Party has got to 424 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: make a fundamental decision. Which side are they on? You 425 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: really can't collect a lot of money from the wealthy 426 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: and the powerful and super pecks, and let's say, on 427 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: on the side of working class people. We haven't been 428 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: able to raise the money minimum, which we haven't been 429 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: able to reform at dysfunctional healthcare system. We haven't done 430 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: zip on childcare, pre K pretty elderly, all right, So 431 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: we in this country have the potential. This is not 432 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: an exaggeration. You know, we have the potential to create 433 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: a decent life for all people. But over the last 434 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: fifty years, real wages for the arborage of American work 435 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: are actually lower inflation accounted wages than they worked fifty years. 436 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: So you wonder why people are angry where they're given 437 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: up on government. I think it's not us a lot 438 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: to do with it. You have done a lot though, 439 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: especially right now. I mean, I think you've seen that 440 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: that there really is a sort of ground swell towards 441 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: that Democrats need to address these issues because Republicans have 442 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: completely just it's not even clear what they're doing. But 443 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm wondering why Democrats are better at messaging this. Well, 444 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: it's a question of you know, then you're dealing with 445 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: the media out there, and you know, you've got a 446 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: media which is owned by I think something like the 447 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: media owned by eight large media conglomerates, and you know what, 448 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: these media enomerates are not particularly interested in talking about 449 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: lowering the cost of prescription drugs. They get billions of 450 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: dollars and TV ads from you know, the pharmaceutical industry, etcetera. Etcetera. 451 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: It's not only messaging, it's standing up and doing the 452 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: right thing. In my view, if we had been able 453 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: to pass Build Back Better, which would have been a 454 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: transformative piece of legislation dealing with everything from childcare to 455 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: the needs of senior citizens, what you would have seen 456 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: is millions of people said, Hey, guess what I didn't 457 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: know This government can actually do something for me. Now 458 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm an old person, I can go to the dentist 459 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: and medicare covers that I'm a working person, and my god, 460 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: I don't have to pay more than seven percent of 461 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: my income on childcare. I'm a college student. I get 462 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: free tuition at community college. I'm a senior citizen, and 463 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: I can now stay at home, not be forced into 464 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: a nursing home because we're dealing with home healthcare for 465 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm a young person, and find me. The government has 466 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: got to create, you know, millions of jobs transforming our 467 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: energy system away from fossil fuel. So what I am 468 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: saying is these are really difficult and crazy times for 469 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: this country in the world. I mean, if you're dealing 470 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: with a never ending pandemic, you're dealing with you know, 471 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: the Ukraine, with dealing with climate and people are very 472 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: exacerbated and nervous, and they depressed in many ways. But 473 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: what we need right now is a government that is 474 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: clear about which side is on. And if you do that, 475 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a chance, a chance that we can 476 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: get people involved in the political process, whether they're black 477 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: or the white, or Latino or whatever they may be, 478 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: and say, you know what government can work for me. 479 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: I don't need, you know, to the way with democracy. 480 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 1: When you saw this CBO report that one the richest 481 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: one present now owns a third of the wealth in 482 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: the US, you said it was scene. Talk to me 483 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: about that a little more. I mean, I also think 484 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: it's completely just beyond the well, you know, here's a 485 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: funny thing. And you know, I look at the world 486 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: a little bit different than many of my colleagues. If 487 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: somebody walks into a store this afternoon today and shoot somebody, 488 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: everybody says this is terrible. You say it's terble. I 489 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: say it's terrible and terrible people around shooting people. And 490 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: yet you have in an economic system in which, for example, 491 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: you've got drug companies raising their prices so high the 492 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: thousands of people die every other very conscious of that influence. 493 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: Influence is one example, but there are many other examples. 494 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: People die in this country because I can't afford prescription 495 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: drugs while the drug companies make tens of billions of 496 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: dollars in profit for you in terms of income and wealth. 497 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: You know, yes, it is immoral and wrong for somebody 498 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: to shoot somebody. Everybody agrees with it. Is it immoral 499 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: or wrong that we have a system in which three 500 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: people one to three literally own more wealth than the 501 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: bottom half, with the top one percent now owns more 502 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: wealth in the bottom holds one third of the wealth 503 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: of America? Is that morally wrong? And the answer is yeah, 504 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: it is. I just looked to somebody active in California, 505 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: forty thousand people as we speak, homeless in the city 506 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles, forty thousand people, and you've got the 507 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: one percent owning, uh, you know, a third of the 508 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: wealth of this country. That is immoral and that is wrong, 509 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: and we've got to be clear about it. It is wrong. 510 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: That's sixty thousand people every year die because they don't 511 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: go to a doctor because they don't have health insurance, 512 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: so they're under insured. That's morally unacceptable. But we don't 513 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: talk about it in those terms, while the insurance companies 514 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: make zillions of dollars every year in profit. So what 515 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: I'm saying is you've got to talk truth to the 516 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: American people. Not everybody's gonna agree with you. Some people say, well, 517 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: that's the free emperprise system, that's capitalism. Isn't that great that? 518 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: You know? Elon Musk is worth, you know, eighteen trillion 519 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: dollars wherever he's worth. He's going off to in his 520 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: spaceship in someplace. Fine, but got government subsidies, Ah, no kidding, 521 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: And so do all of them. And they use some cases. 522 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: You have billionaires not paying a nickel in federal taxes, 523 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, and they got lobbyist level capital hill youre 524 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: trying to protect their interests. But you've got to be 525 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: honest with the American people and say, look, the political 526 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: system is clearly corrupt because billionaires. You know, recently, some 527 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: Republican guy you announced he is giving the Republicans one 528 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: point six billion dollars, yes, for the Judicial Action League 529 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: or something, and that money is going to be spent 530 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: all over the place. So you know, you have billionaires 531 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: buying elections, billionaires becoming much ritual working people, pull up behind. 532 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: And then you've got this technological revolution that we're in 533 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: the middle of right now, and it's going to displace 534 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Does anyone care that somebody's gonna 535 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: be replaced by a role but what happens does that 536 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: work makes those decisions. So my point is that in 537 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: this country, the truth is, Yes, you can provide a 538 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: decent standard of living to old people. Yes we can 539 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: have healthcare is a human right, not a privilege. Yes 540 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: you can make public cologist and university's tuition free. Yes 541 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: you can have a much much fairer level of income 542 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: and wealth distribution than we currently have. So you know, 543 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: that's kind of where I'm coming from. Tell the truth 544 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: to the American people about what's going on. Have the 545 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: guts to stand up that the big money interests who 546 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: today have enormous power, and the Democrats are gonna have 547 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: to make that choice. And I think if you don't 548 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: stand up with working people, they will see right through you, 549 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: and uh, we've got to decide which side we're on. 550 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: And if we do that, I think we develop good 551 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: policy and it's good politics as well. This Global minimum 552 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: corporate tax, which is now nowhere that seemed to me 553 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: like a moment where we could really see corporations paying 554 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: their fair share. Fuck, you got this scandal of situation 555 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: that American corporations and corporations that every major country on 556 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: Earth are parking their money in the Cayman Islands and 557 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: Muta and in all the tax countries which allow them 558 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: to do that. So all over the world, governments are 559 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: searching for money to deal with the needs of working people, 560 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: poor people, and you have these billionaires of talking that 561 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: money in tax havens all over the world. And this 562 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: is an issue that governments around the world are going 563 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: to have to deal with. Absolutely. Thank you so much, 564 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: Senator Sanders. I hope you'll come back all right, my pleasure, Molly, 565 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: take care, keep up the good work. Susan Glasser and 566 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: Peter Baker are the authors of The Divider. Trump in 567 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: the White House. Welcome to Fast Politics. Susan Glasser and 568 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: Peter Baker. Thanks for having us. It's great to be 569 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: with you. Milly. Let's first talk about the book and 570 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: then we can talk about how the world is ending. 571 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: The book is called The Divider. Blame to us a 572 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: little bit about how you decided to write this book. Well, 573 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, the truth is is that everybody in some 574 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: ways wants to move on, of course, from the Trump thing. 575 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: But you know, Trump is not just history. He's our 576 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: present as well as apparently possibly our future. And I 577 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: think Peter and I felt like it was really important 578 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: to establish as much of the historical record as possible 579 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: Trump in the White House. You know, every presidency has 580 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: a book like this, right, a sort of a definitive 581 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: first draft account of the administration. Luke Canan great journalists, 582 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: did that for the Ronald Reagan presidency. Our colleague John 583 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: Harris did that after the two terms of Bill Clinton. 584 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: And you know, in this case it seemed even more urgent. Right. 585 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: We really felt that all of the catastrophic ending of 586 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: the Trump presidency January six and like, had obscured that 587 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 1: there was this four year history of building up to it. 588 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: And we felt that if you really wanted to understand 589 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: January six, you had to go back to January seventeen 590 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: and all the days in between. Talk to me about 591 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: some of the more shocking stuff that you you sort 592 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: of knew but that you were I mean, the COVID 593 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: stuff is really interesting. Do you want to talk about 594 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: that a little bit? You know, One thing is really 595 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: interesting was, even though we spent four years covering this 596 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: White House, I was a beat reporter, Susan as a colonist, 597 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: we really want to go back and find out what 598 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: we didn't know at the time. So this is three 599 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 1: hundred interviews we did after he left office, and one 600 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: of the things we discovered there was a whole lot 601 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: more information about stories that we thought we knew, as 602 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: well as stories that we didn't know. I mean there 603 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: from the from the serious to the sublime. I mean, 604 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: just this small example right is is the Green Landing. 605 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: Remember when Trump talked about I was gonna buy again. 606 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: Everybody sort of assume as kind of a one off, 607 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 1: you know, random thought, But in terms, this has been 608 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: going on for a couple of years by that point, 609 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: because his friend Ron Louder, the billionaire from New York, 610 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: planted this idea his head. It went so far that 611 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: they even came up with an options memo for how 612 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: to do it, maybe even the least back option or 613 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: something like that. So there are things that we didn't 614 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: know about, stories that we thought we knew in the 615 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: story we had no idea about, you know, like how 616 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: his own staff was so disturbed by him, that John Kelly, 617 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: his second chief of staff, bought a book talk about 618 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: how Trump's mental health was so unstable in order to 619 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: try to understand the commander in chief he was serving, 620 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: which is a pretty amazing thing. And then this lastly, 621 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: list this letter that Mark Milly, the general who was 622 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote to 623 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: resign at one point when he was so bothered by Trump, 624 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: so disturbed by Trump that he said that you're doing 625 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: great and irreparable harm to our country that's never been 626 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: out before. So that's the value in going back and 627 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: doing a book like this. In our view, Can we 628 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: talk about the Avanka and Jared's story. Those two are 629 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: the quintessential Trump characters, right, Uh, the grifters who present 630 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: themselves at all times as sort of this, the children 631 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: who passes the grown ups in the room, right, but 632 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: at the same time somehow managed to absent themselves when 633 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: Trump creates the biggest crisis you know, of his presidency 634 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: in our lifetime of democratic legitimacy. Right. You know, there's 635 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: just this incredible scene two days after the election when 636 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: Jared Kushner wakes up and says, you have Anka, Hey, honey, 637 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna move to Florida. You know, we're done, We're 638 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: out here. Never mind the whole election challenge thing. And 639 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: they know full well, of course that there was no 640 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: rigged election, that there was no massive voter fraud. But 641 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: instead of doing what they claimed all along to be doing, 642 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: which is, you know, being responsible at least semi responsible 643 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: actress in the room with Trump, they just throw up 644 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: their hands and say, well, you know, if you want 645 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: to pick Rudy, that's fine. And it's just an incredible 646 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: moment of the callousness. There's this. You know, some of 647 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: the reporting I thought Molly in this book really underscored 648 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: how how how the method worked. And and Jared Kushner 649 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: used to brag to others, Uh, well, I know how 650 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: to manage my father in law. And he even had 651 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: a ratio that he talked about, uh, two to one, 652 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: two to one good news for any little tiny bit 653 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: of bad news that you had to give the boss. Uh. 654 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: He would put five points on any pole that he 655 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: told me about. Meanwhile, you know, Trump hands and responsibilities 656 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: for such a wide ranging thing. They talk about him 657 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: in Jared and the White House is the Secretary of everything, 658 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: you know, and yet of course he had a background 659 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: and nothing. Uh, And it's just it's it's extraordinary that 660 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: these two were allowed to play the role they were. 661 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: Donald Trump seriously considered putting Ivanka on the ticket. We 662 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: just thought that was a joke, but he hed said 663 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: it again and again to his advisors. In twenties. Sixteen later, 664 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: he seriously thought about naming Ivanka ambassador to the U 665 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: n or President of the World Brank World. This is unbelievable. 666 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh everything, by the way, I keep saying, 667 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh because people tell me horrible stuff. But wow, 668 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: Ivanka Trump president of the World Bank. That is something 669 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: Trump sometimes would undercut, Jarrett, Can you talk about that. 670 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: That's sort of hilarious. Yeah, I know he did even 671 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: and and he would just say barbed things about him 672 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: and meetings in the wide houses and well, I just Jared, 673 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: he only cares about his liberal friends, that kind of thing. 674 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: So he really he had in his mind, Jared, you know, 675 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: was very useful and I'm sure you know, as a 676 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: member of family, they have some affection there. But he 677 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: was also quite jaundice about his son in law, and 678 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: there was a sort of constant refrain with his aids 679 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: about wishing that they had stayed in New York or 680 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: would go back to New York, and you know, some 681 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: people try to spend that and saying, well, he was 682 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: just concerned about them because they were being beat up 683 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: by the system in Washington and the media and the Democrats, 684 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: and how terrible it was for them. It wasn't that what. 685 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: He just didn't want them there. He thought that they 686 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: were causing issues for him. Every time he saw them 687 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: on television, like Jared coming out after being for testifying, 688 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: he just thought to himself, this is not, you know, 689 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: what he wanted. And the aide took that to be, 690 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: you know, kind of a sign that they should try 691 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: to encourage Jared and Ivanka to leave, which of course 692 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: only got them in hot water because Trump would ever 693 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: actually tell that to them himself direct. And the John 694 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: McCain stuff continues to really haunt Trump. Can you talk 695 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, he really did have an obsession with McCain, 696 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: And of course you go back to the sixteen campaign, 697 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: and for many Republicans that was an initial gut punch 698 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: when he savaged McCain, you know, and essentially said, you know, 699 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: prisoners of war don't deserve respect because it's somehow they 700 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: were taking a prisoner. And yet, nonetheless, of course, Republicans 701 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: continued to support Trump, and that really was the story 702 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: of McCain's final year of life and in office, that 703 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: he became an increasingly marginalized opponent of Trump at his 704 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: own party. And yet Trump was driven crazy by McCain's resistance, 705 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: and when he died, of course, he refused to have 706 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: the flags lowered, to have staff as would be customary 707 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: in a situation like that. That was reported at the time. 708 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: Trump and his people denied it, but our reporting for 709 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: the book says that it was absolutely correct, and in fact, 710 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: John Kelly, the chief of staff at the time, had 711 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: to repeatedly go to Trump, uh and they had one 712 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: chatting match in which John Kelly basically said to Trump, 713 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't do this, people will come 714 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: to your grave and piss on it. And I mean, 715 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, can you imagine what what a toxic, horrible 716 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: place that White House was to be? And I think 717 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: it could come back. Yeah, I mean, look, let's be real. 718 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: That is an amazing fact after January six. But it 719 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: is nonetheless true that Trump has retained the support of 720 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: a majority of the Republican Party. There are millions of 721 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: people who continue to adhere to his lies about the election. 722 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: In fact, he's made support for those lies a litmus 723 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: test for the candidates he's endorsing this year, in a 724 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: year that looks to be a Republican year in terms 725 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: of the overall results. And so, uh, it may be 726 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: an even more trumpefied party that emerges over time. It 727 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: does certainly seem like that, right, yeah, I mean, look, 728 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, he has had every possible scandal and and 729 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: and embarrassment and investigation and accusation and allegation any politician 730 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: could ever have times ten or whatever rights on steroids, 731 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: and yet he keeps surviving that Republicans have not broken 732 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 1: with him. If they're not going to break with him 733 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: as a party after January six, it's hard to imagine 734 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: what we'll finally do that they perceive him to be 735 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: the power in their party in as long as they do, 736 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: they're correct about that as a self fulfilling thing. There is, however, 737 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: you know, the corrosion theory that over time people get 738 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,959 Speaker 1: tired of it, get tired of the you know, all 739 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: of the hubbub that comes with him, all the investigations 740 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: and so forth. There is a pole NBC does asking 741 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: Republicans do they consider themselves more to be a supporter 742 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump or more support of the Republican Party, 743 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: And the latest one said Trump, which is a large number, 744 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 1: but the lowest since they started asking that question twenty nineteen. 745 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: So it's the only you see what happens in the 746 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: months to come. Susan, You've worked at political You've worked 747 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: at so many nonpartisans, straight down the middle, non opinion places, 748 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: and I know you're a columnist now, so you are 749 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 1: more on the opinion side. But I think, right, well, yeah, 750 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: although what I'm trying to do is really more rooted 751 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: in in analysis, and you know, I don't see myself 752 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 1: as a kind of ideological war warrior in the way 753 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: that a lot of opinion columns are great, but it's 754 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: just not my role. I feel like that's the thing 755 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: about writing a history about Trump, Molly, you know, is 756 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: that this is not about ideology. It's not it's not 757 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: about what kind of healthcare you know, should we you know, 758 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: details of legislation, trying to understand the ways in which 759 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: this presidency, uh and the threat that it poses to 760 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: American democracy is different than than any other presidency, not 761 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: just of our lifetime. There has been in the history 762 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,720 Speaker 1: of the United States, never a president until Donald Trump 763 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: who challenged the legitimate results of an elector, who refused 764 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: to accept the outcome of a democratic, small d election. 765 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: That's the basic social contract embedded in our constitution. And 766 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: there's only one president in American history who has refused 767 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: to accept that. And that is why I wanted to 768 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: ask that question in that way, because I feel like 769 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: I really trust you as a person who is not 770 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: your problem with Trump is really this like anti democracy 771 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: and it's a very important I mean, I think it's 772 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,720 Speaker 1: historically very much a paradigm shift that is so important 773 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: to talk about, and so I just find it very meaningful, 774 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: if that makes any sense. But what I wanted to 775 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: ask you with this sort of do you see a 776 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: kind of shift in the Republican Party against democracy? Yeah? 777 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: I think that is one of the most striking aspects 778 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: of the story that we've all been, you know, watching 779 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: unfold the last few years, is is essentially the radicalization 780 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: and the as Jared Kushner put it, hostile takeover. Quote 781 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 1: unquote of the Republican Party and essentially turning it into 782 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: a cult of personality. The data point that always sticks 783 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: with me here is the Republican National Convention for the 784 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: first time, almost certainly since the Republican Party was actually 785 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: created in the nineteenth century, the convention did not have 786 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: a policy platform, It did not have all those meetings 787 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: and amendments in the lake. It declined to produce a 788 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: Republican policy platform, and it simply passed resolution saying that 789 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: the Republican Party was in favor of whatever Donald Trump 790 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: was in favor of. That's right, extraordinary moment in the 791 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 1: annals of American democracy, it seems to me. And there's 792 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: been no indication in the subsequent two years of any 793 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: break in in that shift. And so, you know, again, 794 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: just just to your bigger point, the book The Divider 795 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: is a narrative history of Trump in the White House. 796 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: I felt that it was a very important act of 797 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: taking testimony for history's sake. It is not a polemic. 798 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: There are plenty of people who have done, you know, 799 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: great writing and thinking along those lines. But that the 800 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: goal that Peter and I said for ourselves, it's really 801 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: much more that of historians and you know, journalists writing 802 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: a first draft of history. We conducted more than three 803 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: hundred original interviews for this after Trump left office, in 804 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: addition to trying to synthesize and understand the history as 805 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: it had already been public. And to me, that's what 806 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: we were doing is an act of recording this for 807 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: for history's sake. I just think it's so important, and 808 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: I just sai very much in awe of both of 809 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: your writing and reporting, and and it's just a pleasure 810 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: to have you both on this podcasts are a pleasure 811 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: to be with you as you start off this new venture. 812 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: We're so excited. Yeah, congre, thank you well. I hopefully 813 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: we'll have you guys back on to talk about everything 814 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: that's happening. I Molly, John Fast, Jesse Cannon, So tell 815 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: me what's today's moment of Today's moment of fuckery involves 816 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,800 Speaker 1: a Republican in Texas. Maybe we should just make every 817 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: moment of fuckery to involve a Republican in Texas because 818 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: they're certainly Molly, you have to let Louie go. I 819 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 1: know he's in your heart forever, but like he's gonna 820 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: be gone. Suit, I feel like it might be good 821 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,280 Speaker 1: to start bntally preparing yourself for him not being everywhere 822 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: all the time. I'm telling you, I don't even think 823 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: Louie Gomert is the worst Republican in Texas. No. What's 824 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,240 Speaker 1: even a shocking thing to me sometimes is that there 825 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: even do keep down some of their worst. Like Alan 826 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: West was the worst congressman of his era. When you 827 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: see him every time he's in the New is it 828 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: is so insane what he says. But they had the 829 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,399 Speaker 1: sense to not vote for him this time around. It's 830 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: amazing stuff. Good job Texas. So Ken Paxton is the 831 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: long under indictment Attorney General of the state of Texas, 832 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: and he has been under in diamond for seven years 833 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: for securities fraud. You know, I feel like Republicans in 834 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,839 Speaker 1: Texas are just built different than the rest of them. Oh, 835 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: I like that. I like that. That's the one way 836 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: of putting it. They're just tougher, crazier, louder. What we 837 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: just found out was that Paxton was served as subpoena. 838 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 1: He got in his truck the wife was driving. By 839 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: the way, I feel for these wives. I mean, I 840 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: know they did this to themselves, but also, like you know, 841 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: you still don't want to be like, get in the car, honey, 842 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: you were driving for driving away? Do you really feel 843 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: for them though? I don't know. I mean, I just 844 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: think it's whatever anyway. So the lawyers for the eight 845 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: argued they didn't know the attorney general would be served 846 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: at home. Emails from opposing counsel show they tried repeatedly 847 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: to serve him through his attorneys, and I guess the 848 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: attorneys also got in their wives cars and drove away. 849 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: And for that, I think it's fair to say that 850 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: Texas Attorney General Kent Paxton, his wife, State Senator Angela Paxton, 851 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 1: and his lawyers in the state of Texas all our 852 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: our moment of Corea bounds. That's it for this episode 853 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,280 Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday 854 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: to hear the best minds and politics makes sense of 855 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,760 Speaker 1: all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please 856 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 857 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.