1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, he told my mom they tried to kill me 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: and my sister. I don't I didn't do that, and 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: got me confused with someone. But I did not do that. 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: Of course it's going to say that he didn't do it. 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: No one would want to ever admit that they had 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: hurt children or a woman in such a brutal and 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: violating way. I was so ready to not talk about 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: this anymore. I thought we were done. I hadn't really 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: locked away for so long because I learned that when 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: you tell secrets, paw, things could happen to you. But 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: I know what I know, and she I said, I wrote, 12 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: you talked to you. M I'm Leah Rothman, a TV producer, 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: writer and director. Over the years, I worked on a 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: lot of shows with topics ranging from addiction, kidnappings, and cults, 15 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: to parenting issues, celebrity profiles, and homemakeovers. There was also 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: this one show where people had sex in a box 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: on stage, but we'll skip right past that one. But 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: it's stories of injustice, injustice of any kind that I 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: feel most compelled to expose anyway. In the fall of 20 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: I was working as a staff writer on Crime Watch Daily, 21 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: a nationally syndicated true crime television show. When I was 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: given a new assignment, my boss asked me to go 23 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: through some transcripts and try to make sense of what 24 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: was supposed to be a profile piece on a true 25 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: crime author. Was there enough fair and if not, what 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: do we need in order to tell that story? But 27 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: after going through all the interviews and footage, I made 28 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: the case we needed to focus on a different story. 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: It was about one of the most horrific crimes in St. 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: Louis history, the murder of Joe and Tate, the vicious 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: attack on her two young daughters, Melissa and Renee, and 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: the conviction of Tate's one time lover, Rodney Lincoln, who, 33 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: after more than thirty three years in prison, still claimed 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: he didn't do it. God knows. I'm no angel. Never 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: in my life could I I would? I M a job? 36 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: No what. A couple of months later, the episode entitled 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: Who Killed Joe and Tate aired and that was supposed 38 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: to be the end of it, but it wasn't. It's 39 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: what happened next that no one saw coming. I hope 40 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: you guys do the fucking right thing. I have been 41 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: a puppet of this city for years, I'm done, and 42 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: it jumps started a messy and complicated chain of events that, 43 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: over the course of the next several years, would change 44 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: the lives of so many, including strangely me. Since then, 45 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to let go of the nagging 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: and haunting feeling that my work on this story is 47 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: not done. My gut has been telling me to go 48 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: back and look at everything again. Forget what I think 49 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: I know about Joe and Tate, Rodney Lincoln, and how 50 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: this case was investigated and prosecuted. So that's what I'm 51 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: going to do. The truth will finally be revealed. I'm 52 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: not sure I'm ready for any of it. This is 53 00:03:46,400 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: the real Killer Episode one A bad feeling. Yeah, m 54 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: it is unpressure to welcome you into the Saint Louis 55 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: the local clim The last time I was in St. Louis, 56 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: it was a whirlwind. I flew in with a camera 57 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: crew to shoot a ton of interviews in just a 58 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: few days. This trip is going to be different. Starting 59 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: route to Lynn, head south on Gloria Avenue, then turned 60 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: right onto Victory Boulevard, I start with driving due west 61 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: two hours to the rural town of Lynn, Missouri, population 62 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: around that's where Joe and Tate's brother Nathaniel Clenny and 63 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: his wife Lorie live on their sprawling thirty two acres 64 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: of land. Nat greets me on this very windy day 65 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: as I pull into their driveway. Hi, Nott, how are 66 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: you good? I know, it's good to see you here. 67 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: Almost it's been over a year, isn't it. I think 68 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: it was like the spring of we barely get through 69 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: the screen door and into their modest home when Nat 70 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: and Lorie launched into a comedy routine straight out of 71 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties. To be fair, I think I may 72 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: have egged them on, you know how long we've been together? No, 73 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: forty long years, forty the best years of your life. 74 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: It Actually that was kind of mean to say that. 75 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: That's not a Christian attitude. You know. If I didn't say, well, 76 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: I have another saying she tells everybody we met on 77 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: a blind day, And I said, we did, I tell 78 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: everybody blind? But we know we're just joking. These guys 79 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: are just joking. That's how when we were seventeen, so 80 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: we basically grew up together. Just a little over a 81 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: year after they meet, the nineteen year olds will be 82 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: forced to grow up faster than anyone could have ever imagined. 83 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: It starts innocently enough one spring morning in nineteen eight two, 84 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: when Joanne's boyfriend Jerry Woodward calls looking for her. Okay, so, um, 85 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but can you tell me about April seven, 86 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, the day that we were, the day 87 00:06:53,960 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: that uh we found joy in. Yeah. Well, um, uh, 88 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: I had I had, I had a I had a 89 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: boatload of stuff to do that morning. Um, And Jerry 90 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: called me. He says, I can't get older Joy. I said, well, else, 91 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: she's probably over at my sister Abby's house. So I 92 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: called over there and I said no, she wasn't over there. 93 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, Well Jerry called me back and 94 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: I said, well, maybe she went to the store. And 95 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: around what time was this? Do you remember? It was 96 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: after I went to school? Yeah, it had to be 97 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: somewherees between yeah, my college first classes, probably things about 98 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: eight or nine or something. Jerry, Jerry. Jerry was supposed 99 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: to go down to see Joanna and they were going 100 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: to go to the park and sit at the park 101 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: and just kind of beat boyfriend and girlfriend, you know, 102 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: hold hands and stuff and all that neat stuff. And 103 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: guys don't like to do. So he says, I can't 104 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: get ahold. And for some reason, all of a sudden, 105 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: I heard this voice say, good come from a religious background. Thing. 106 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: My mind was very Penny cost A, very religious, so 107 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: I believe in God. But I heard a voice that 108 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: go and so I said, come pick me up. And 109 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: so we got there and I went up to the 110 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: door to knock, and nobody answered, and the same voice said, 111 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: pushed the door, push, push, And I pushed it. And 112 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: when I pushed the door open, and I could see 113 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: my sister laying in the middle room, uh with no 114 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: clothes on, with an object sticking out of her inside 115 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: the first floor brick rear apartment at four eighteen for 116 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: our street. Joe and Tate is found lying face down 117 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: in a pool of blood on the floor of her 118 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: daughter's bedroom. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. There 119 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: was blood splatter everywhere, on the lampshades, on the walls, everywhere. 120 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: No matter where you look, you saw blood splatters. I 121 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: was looking around, I'm going like, this is crazy. I 122 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: went to my sister. I think I went to her 123 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: first and touched her. She was cold to the touch, 124 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: so she's been dead for a long time. So I 125 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: went into kitchen and called the police, and I every 126 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: time I called them, Uh, the anti was a joke. 127 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: I said, this is no joke. Fifth District is not 128 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: that far from here. It's just a few blocks and 129 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: there's no police here. So I called up mom. I said, Mom, 130 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: you got to get over her. Joyant's dead. And so 131 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Mom said, come pick me up. So I drive all 132 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: over to my mom's house, which is probably two or 133 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: three blocks away, about the same distance as the police station. 134 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: I picked mom up, and I bring her back and 135 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: right away she runs to the children. She took their 136 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: covers down. She could see there. It was a mess, 137 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: that bloody mess. Not and Joanne's mother, lou Clenny, finds 138 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: her granddaughters, seven year old Melissa and four year old Renee, 139 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: lying in their beds, barely clinging to life. St. Louis 140 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: Metro police arrived minutes later. They said, if we hadn't, 141 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: we hadn't found him. When we did, they said, they 142 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: were real close to dat, but something told you to 143 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: open the door, to push the door open. A voice. 144 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: M look at that. You can't make this up. Yeah, 145 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: he's got goose bumps. Well, he said, push your door open. 146 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: Someone to say them little kids was an angel. God 147 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: Joe saved my babies. It's funny when I look back 148 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: at the pictures of me and Renee. Renee was often 149 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: in dresses. Renee was a little blind hair thing, whispy 150 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: blond hair and his eyes. Just a little round faced kid. 151 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: She's so cute. I was a little crumbum. I was 152 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: always dirty, always always awkward. That's Melissa Daboor now. Back 153 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: in she was Melissa Davis, just seven years old. Her sister, 154 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: Renee Tate, was four. There was also an older sister 155 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: who mostly stated her boyfriends. I had auburn brown hair, 156 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: its wild and crazy, and skin that got so dark, 157 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: like from the slightest sun exposure. I had two large 158 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: front teeth, and I was missing my eye teeth, so 159 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: I had a toothy grand Almost forty years to the 160 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: day and less than four miles away from where it 161 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: all happened, Melissa agrees to share her story with me 162 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: once again. A warning, what you're about to hear is 163 00:11:47,920 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: incredibly gruesome. If you feel comfortable, we'll go. Yeah to 164 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: that day, the day before everything changed. I was really 165 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: excited because Mama was taking us to Hyde Park. Hyde 166 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Park was down the alley and across the street from 167 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: our house. But it was so much fun it never 168 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: got boring. You know. We walked down that gravel at 169 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: gravel Alley and looked both ways across the street, and 170 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: the moment my feet hopped up on that curb across 171 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: that sidewalk, I was a little rocket. I would hit 172 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: all the points, to all the high points, slide the merry, 173 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: go around, see saw. Mama is hung back with Renee 174 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: because when thee was slower and smaller, but my mom 175 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: followed me everywhere I went and watched close as she could. 176 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: I loved that park. We were probably only there for 177 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: an hour or two, but I remember becoming aware at 178 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: some point there is this weird feeling in my belly, 179 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: and I remember walking up to her with my sister. 180 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: My sister was picking dandylions, I think, but I told 181 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: my mom I felt like something bad was going to happen, 182 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: and I really think that she just did not listen 183 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: to me at that moment. My mom knew that I 184 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: was a kid that was prone to imagination of flights, 185 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: to fancy a little strange. Well, she didn't believe you. 186 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: I don't think she believed me. And I remember telling 187 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: her I didn't want to go home, and she's like, 188 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: of course, we've got to go home. Where are we 189 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: going to go? You know what I mean? Like, come on, 190 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: a silly girl. But Melissa won't let it go. She 191 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: says she has a bad feeling again during dinner, at bathtime, 192 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: and as Joanne reads a nighttime story to the girls. Eventually, 193 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: Melissa gives up the exhaustion of the day wins out. 194 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: I think it all hit me at once, because I 195 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: remember with my mom and she handed me my teddy 196 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: bear and kiss me, and I kissed my teddy bear. 197 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: That the next thing I know, I was in a 198 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: very deep sleep and then I was dolted away. What 199 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: woke you? I believe it was a loud noise, in 200 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: a scream. Definitely a loud noise. It was maybe a commotion, 201 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: but it was loud and deep, and I woke up. 202 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: My mom was on the floor, there was blood everywhere. 203 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: There was a naked man mixed in my back. I 204 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: felt so confused and scared, and I don't remember exactly 205 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: what he said first, but I I asked him. I 206 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: said why is my mom on the floor? And he 207 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: said she sleep but Joanne is not sleeping, and Melissa 208 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: doesn't have time to process what she's seeing. The next 209 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: thing she knows, the man scoops her up and carries 210 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: her to her mom's room, where he throws her on 211 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: the bed. And this man has the most blank expression 212 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: on his face and started taking off my clothes. And 213 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: I got very irritated and mad I said stop stop 214 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: taking no, it's no, no, don't take my clothes. I 215 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: was suddenly there without any clothes. The man then tries 216 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: to sexually assault Melissa, but she fights back. He tried 217 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: to make me do oral on him, and I bait 218 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: him there. He was mad at me for fighting him, 219 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: and he straddled my legs and I remember seeing at 220 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: I guess the back of his like by his hip. 221 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: He had a knife and he was hiding it from me, 222 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: and I was so scared, and I knew right away 223 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: he was going to hurt me. And he just started 224 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: stabbing me. I kept thinking, why is he doing this 225 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: to me? Why is he hurting me? Where is my mom? 226 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: The man stabs Melissa multiple times. She's somehow, even at 227 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: seven years old, has the wherewithal to play dead, and 228 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: when she thinks he's not looking, tries to get away. 229 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: As she scurry across the bed, he grabs her, slices 230 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: her from her vagina to her rectum, throws her back 231 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: on the bed like a rag doll, and stabs her 232 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: once more in the chest. Bloodied and exhausted, Melissa plays 233 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: dead again. This time it works. She feels the bed 234 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: ease up and hears him walk away. She sneaks a 235 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: peek and sees the man in the kitchen washing off 236 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: the knife in the sink. For the time being, he's 237 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: occupied and this could be her chance to run out 238 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: the front door. But Melissa can't leave her four year 239 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: old sister behind. So I thought, I'm gonna help her, 240 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: Nae and I slowly crept out of that room, and 241 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: that's when I realized how much pain aison, how bad 242 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: it was. But before I could say anything to her, 243 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: I heard him turn off that water, So I crawled 244 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: into her bed, and that's where I found my dog, 245 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: And then I forget turning my head to the left 246 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: and seeing my mom. I was only maybe five or 247 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: six ft from her, hiding under Renee's bed. The family 248 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: dog Tricksie licks Melissa's wounds. Total silence, then a terrifying sound. 249 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: I remember hearing the feet and then seeing the feet, 250 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: and he went to look for me and didn't find me, 251 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: and he's asking Rene. He's like, where is she? When 252 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: he was just four four years old and she was crying. 253 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: I felt the bed shake a little bit, and then 254 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: I saw a lot of blood hit the floor, a 255 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: lot of blood, and he walked away. That didn't move 256 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: anymore after that. Melissa drifts in and out of consciousness. 257 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: The next time she opens her eyes, she sees the 258 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: man has not left. He was smoking cigarettes at the 259 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: end of my mom's bed and watching TV. You're under 260 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: the bed, and how could you see him? This is 261 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: Rene's bed. My mom's bed was catacorner to Rene's in 262 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: her own room, so the end of Mom's bed. It 263 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: was great here. I was under Rene's bed and I 264 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: could see his face. His face did not reflect any 265 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: of the carnage that was around him. He was waiting 266 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: for us to die well. Melissa tries to stifle the 267 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: sounds of her suffering. Complex thoughts run through her young, 268 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: terrified mind. I just kept waiting, thinking Mom was gonna 269 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: wake up, or someone will have called the police, or 270 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: he'll leave. But it didn't happen, but it was weird. 271 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: I was thinking about a lot of things, like I'm 272 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna die, it's going to be on TV. I thought 273 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: a lot about the people that would feel bad that 274 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: I died, Like little girls mean to me because I 275 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: kissed her little brother in her cheek in kindergarten, she 276 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: punched me in the stomach. I thought she'd feel bad 277 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: when I died. You were actually having those thoughts as 278 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: you were lying underneath renames, and I just remember thinking, 279 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: he's going to get out and do something else to us, 280 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: or he's going to go somewhere because he doesn't want 281 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: to be caught here. I had seen enough shows at 282 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: the age to know that bad guys will often run away, 283 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: and I remember at one point falling asleep, thinking why 284 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: won't he just go. Melissa, who's been stabbed several times, 285 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: wakes to the sounds of her little sister's desperate cries. 286 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: She looks around and realizes the man is gone. She 287 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: wanted water, so I made myself set up. I remember 288 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: really hard to set up. I started to walk into 289 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: the kitchen and I threw up, and I remember stopping 290 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: trying to shake my mom awake, and I was like, Mom, 291 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: may wake up, and she didn't wake up. So I 292 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: went into the kitchen. Melissa fills a tin measuring cup 293 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: with water and slowly walks back to her sister resting 294 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: along the way, and she just looked really weird to me. 295 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: There was something wrong with her face and her neck. 296 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: When I try to pull it up, I don't get details. 297 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: My brain won't let me completely go there. When Renee 298 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: took a drink of that water, that water came out 299 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: of her throat and she cried. There was no water 300 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: in her tears, and I wanted to stay through and 301 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: hold her, but I was so tired, and I made 302 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: my way back to my bed. I fell asleep. When 303 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: we talk about Renee, you know, when I when we're 304 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: talking about what happened to her, I think it's almost 305 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: like a micro snapshot of the whole situation, just the 306 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: atrocity and the violation, and just lack of any kind 307 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: of he'd have any hesitation about heart and a little kids. 308 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 1: It's times like this I'm reminded of what exactly it 309 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: is that I'm doing. I'm asking Melissa to relive these 310 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: really horrible details and memories, which continue to affect her 311 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: to this day. I'm thankful for Melissa's trust. She's promised 312 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: me that in the course of making this podcast, if 313 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: it's ever too much, she'll tell me. And in a 314 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: later episode we are going to talk a lot more 315 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: about Melissa's memories and what she can and can't remember. 316 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: But clearly some memories are in sharp focus. I can 317 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: remember certain sensations with the blood, like feet sticking on 318 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: the floor or walking through it. I remember seeing it 319 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: on the sink in the kitchen, Remember my bed sticking 320 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: to my skin, and being on the floor under the bed, 321 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: the fuzz and dust and grit of a floor sticking 322 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: to me. So you get back into bed, yeah, and 323 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: um what happens? I get back into bed, and I 324 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: remember pulling the sheet up on me and just closing 325 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: my eyes so quickly, and part of me knew my 326 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: sister was over there suffering, and I couldn't keep my 327 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: eyes open to do anything, to say anything. I remember 328 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: right then that loathing of self loathing is where the 329 00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: seed was planted. If I would have been able to 330 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: get up, if I would have been able to get 331 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: help the small chance my mom might still be here. 332 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything. I couldn't do anything. I passed out. 333 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: The next time Melissa opens her eyes, it's because she 334 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: hears pounding on the door. She wonders if the man 335 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: has come back to finish them off, and the door 336 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: flew open. I remember hearing the door knob hit the 337 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: wall when it flew but I realized right away it 338 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: was my uncle Nad. And it was a whirlwind because 339 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: he was very confused and he was very scared. And 340 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: he went and started to my mother. It was saying, Joanne, Joanne, 341 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: what happened? Joanne? Who did the seed? He was trying 342 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: to shake her awake, and he was so shocked and 343 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: and he asked me, he said, who did this to you? Guys? 344 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: Who did this to you? And I said, Bill, Why 345 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: did you say Bill? He's freaking out, And I'm like 346 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: it took me a moment, but I was like Bill. Bill. 347 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: For some reason, that was the name I knew to say. 348 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: That was to me, I think the name I knew 349 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: him by. When this man was attacking you, when you 350 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: were on the bed, how far was your face from 351 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: his face? Maybe, like I mean at times half a foot, 352 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: most time a foot foot and a half. Yeah, I 353 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: knew that name. I knew that man as Bill. Coming 354 00:26:53,119 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: up this season on The Real Killer, h you want 355 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: to hear the story about the bad band. It wasn't 356 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: hard to find men in her past who had some 357 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: history of violence or some incident of violence. I told 358 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: him that Bill drove a Volkswagen and Bill had worked 359 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: at my mom's car. Does your that's him? I said, 360 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: his name's not Bill. Keep saying that's him, that's him? 361 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: Hopefit so walked up to means that you're in big trouble. 362 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: Ars to the batman was in prison and the rap 363 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: you think of him or talk about him again. But 364 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: yet I always felt like I was being watched fist 365 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: two years with twelve and you know what they hate 366 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: more than anything, John molestedes. Did you want harm to 367 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: come to him? I wasn't opposed to add I knew 368 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: nothing about investigating. I read these police reports and I 369 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: saw that lineup photo and I was just like, you've 370 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: got to be kidding me. There's a lot of TIS said, 371 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: there isn't any evidence. You can't make up evidence. I shouldn't, 372 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: And I just remember thinking what are we even doing? 373 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: Should I even be a lawyer anymore? I said, something's 374 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: not right, something it's not right. Yeah, I swear the 375 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: shape of his face changed, the color of his eyes changed, 376 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: and I realized at that moment that I was seeing 377 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: what is victim soul. At the last moment before they died, 378 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: he was in a house with a woman and two 379 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: little girls, and he said it was a bloody mess. 380 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: You absolutely need to go talk to him. Hello, you 381 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: have a call at no expense to you from an 382 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: inmate at Camsas Department of Correction, Hutchinson Correctional Facility OHO. 383 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of a y R 384 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by me Leah Rothman. 385 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen for A y 386 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman, Senior Associate producer 387 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: Eric Newman, Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed 388 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: and mastered by Cameron Taggi, Audio engineering by heyesus C 389 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir and Kelly McGrew. Legal 390 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: counsel for A y R Media. Gianni Douglas, Executive producer 391 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: for I Heart Radio Chandler Mays. If you're enjoying The 392 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: Real Killer, tell your friends about it and leave us 393 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.