1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years have been 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: on the road playing shows and seeing America through live 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: music this summer, I'll hit the stage who Season two 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: of Sound of Our Town ten cities, twelve episodes every 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: other Thursday, we explore the live music venues and culture 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: of a new American city. With each new episode, our 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: tour continues into the kind of venues you want to 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: get to when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: Listen to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, 28 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. They are 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: more identity threats than you realize. Even if you monitor 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: your credits, only a little personal info needs to leak out, 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: like your social Security number or password, or when you 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: did any kind of a victory. LifeLock alerts you to 33 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: threats you could miss. If your identity is stolen, a 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: dedicated US based restoration specialist will work to fix it. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions, 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: but everyone can save up to twenty five percent off 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: their first year Go to LifeLock dot com slash aware. 38 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: Continuing coverage. Now, more family members associated with the Wagners 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: take the witness stand against George Wagner the fourth Can 40 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: you tell us what your relationship was like with Angela. 41 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: I did not like her. And why was that she 42 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: was such judgmental? She would judge people when she had 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: more skeletons in her closet than anybody. Now. During cross examination, 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb told defense attorney John Parker that George Wagner 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: is like the brother he always wanted. He had far 46 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: less kind things to say about Jake. If I'd had 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: Jake in front of me at the time, I'll probably 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: beat him doing that ship his life. Why something like 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: that should have never been done? Ever? That is a 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: monstrous act, in my opinion, you can Shakespeare compared the 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: trial to a grand stage that people kind of present on. 52 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: The only difference is is you know at the end 53 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: of the play you're going to go home. But with 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: this case they could want it one to death row. 55 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: This is the piked massacre. Returned to Pike County season four, 56 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: episode fifteen. Just like the movies, I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 57 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. 58 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: The murder trial of George Wagner the fourth taking place 59 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: in the Little Red court House in Waverley, Ohio, continues, 60 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: a fall chill is beginning to grip the small town, 61 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: with overcast guys and temperatures in the low fifties. There's 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: a promise of a much more biding winter ahead. In 63 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: the biggest criminal proceeding in Ohio's history, Special Prosecutor Angie 64 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: Kaneppa is seeking justice for the execution style murders of 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: eight members of the Roden, Gillie, and Manly families in 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It's been a profoundly emotional trial as the 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: Roden family members and friends have been forced to relive 68 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: the earth shattering murders that left their family in ruins, 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: murders that George Wagner, the Fourth's defense team claims he 70 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with. George Wagner has pled not 71 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: guilty to all charges, as has his father, Billy Wagner, 72 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: whose trial is upcoming. George's brother Jake, and his mother 73 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: Angela have already pled guilty. While it's true that there's 74 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: been little hard evidence tying George Wagner to the actual 75 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: crime scenes, Prosecutor Kneppa has mounted a strong argument that 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: the Wagners did everything as in inextraable Unit Today, Usher's 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: in several critical new witnesses, including Angela Wagner's half brother, 78 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: Chris Newcombe. They share a mother, Rita Newcombe, but Chris's 79 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: twenty years Angela's junior. Technically he's Jake and George Wagner's uncle, 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: but they're so close in age they're more like brothers. 81 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: Nukeam wears a gray shirt, black sweatshirt and has a 82 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: thick tuft of hair on his chin. Here he is 83 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: being examined on the stand. Can you tell us the 84 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: dynamics between your sister Angela and her two sons, Jake 85 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: and George? How would you describe that relationship? On her part? 86 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: Control and us I'll get out, Okay, tell me about that. 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: What do you mean by controlling? As I'll get out? 88 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: Did she tell him to jump a jump? I think 89 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: that's applied as Wagon put that. Did she also try 90 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: to exact control over your several times? Okay? And specifically 91 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: would she try to exert control over regarding your children 92 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: or how you were? She did a few times. I 93 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: told her certain things. Yeah, I angle say exactly what 94 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: I said to her, but just respond to the question. Okay. 95 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: So um, she attempted to, but she was not successful 96 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: in that regard. Yeah, correct, okay, And can you tell 97 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: us what her relationship was like with Billy? Gave me 98 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: a minute, Uh, dysfunctional sounding, all right? You take And 99 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: why do you say that? If you know Billy, you 100 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: pretty much know why it was dysfunctional? Okay, And so 101 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: so go ahead and tell me about that. Tell me 102 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: about your observations or your experience with Billy. He's about 103 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: a useless astets on the borehole. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm 104 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: allowed to say that, Yes, I'm sorry. And and why 105 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: why do you say that? Specifically? Lazy didn't want to 106 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: do nothing? Always round in these mouths. Iway was scheming 107 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: on some way or another, grinded his teeth beyond recognition. 108 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: That's enough, driving a boy crazy. Chris Newcomb was woven 109 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: into the Wagner family fabric. He bought amphetamines for Billy 110 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: Wagner and guns for George. And specifically, did you ever 111 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: help George locate a forty CALIBERT block? Yes, tell me 112 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: about that? What should recall from that? He asked me 113 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: to try to find him forty CALIBERT block, he said, 114 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: had probably a hard one to find. I ended up 115 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: finding one guy had it, and I want to say, 116 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: living in a hills brother, and I'm not one hundred 117 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: percent shorten certain on that. Through a Facebook market place, 118 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: I messages him, then I messages George told him what 119 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: it was. He said, We'll try to get it if 120 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: you can. He said, if not, don't worry about it. 121 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: I tried to get it. I end up getting it, 122 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: and we end up meeting in truck stop right down 123 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: there by the people. As we'll learn, a glock magazine 124 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: was found among the murder weapons that were discovered by investigators. 125 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: It was hidden in a concrete bucket at the bottom 126 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: of a pond at the Wagner's Flynn w farm. When 127 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb first learned of the Wagner's possible involvement in 128 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: the homicides and the Wagners asked him not to cooperate 129 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: with the BCI, he was devastated. Was there ever a 130 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: time that Jake or George or Angela told you not 131 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: to talk to BCI? Yeah? And who told you that? Angela, Jake, George? 132 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: You became aware that Jake pled guilty in this case? Correct? Yepkay? 133 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: Prior to that point, had you more or less defended them? Yes? 134 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: I did? And can you tell us how you felt 135 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: at that time. Enraged. Tell me about that. If I'd 136 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: had Jake in front of me at the time, I'd 137 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: probably beat him doing an ship his life. I would 138 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: have believed a thousand times my family had nothing whatsoever 139 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: to do with this, And then it just made me 140 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: look like the biggest idiot coming. I'm gone whenever Jake 141 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: came out and confessed to it, and I just felt, 142 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 1: I can't think of a right word. I want to 143 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: say a certain word, but I can't think of what 144 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: it is. Trying to think of the word I'm looking for, betrayed. 145 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: But Newcomb took pains to paint George Wagner in a 146 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: more favorable light than the rest of his family. According 147 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: to Chris, George was fun and laid back. He loved 148 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: whipping around on his ATV until he was covered headstone 149 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: and mud. Jake, on the other hand, was uptight and 150 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: irascible about everything, particularly people treading dirt onto his truck. 151 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff hearing Chris Newcomb say the word betrayed. 152 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that's really the word that probably sums it 153 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: up best. Here, You're a very best friend in all 154 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: of the world, someone you consider like a brother, you 155 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: defend them to the death again and again and again, 156 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: and then you find out that they were all lying 157 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, And I feel like Chris Newcome's testimony 158 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: really paints a good contrast of the personality differences between 159 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: Jake's controlling nature kind of being similar to Angela in 160 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: that way, and George being so different from members of 161 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: his family. He could seem like a character witness for 162 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: George Wagner because, as we know, you know, he considered 163 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: him a brother and was shocked and an almost disbelief 164 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: that he could be involved with these murders and that 165 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: they would actually do something that in many ways harmed 166 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: his own mother, Rita Newcome, who's also Angela's mother. He 167 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: said it here in the podcast last season that he'll 168 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: never forgive his half sister, Angela Wagner for what she 169 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: did to his mother. I mean, even just being in 170 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: the courtroom and seeing George for the very first time 171 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: for all of these years, knowing what he's standing accused of, 172 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: knowing that his testimony is also a part of that 173 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: trial that's going to frankly be used against him, That's 174 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: a hard line to walk. Yes, There's been a few 175 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: people that we've talked to over the years that have 176 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: kind of had to grapple with what they knew about 177 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: the Wagner's versus what they're accused of doing. And I 178 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: think Chris Newcomb really encapsulates this, and we hear in 179 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: his testimony. I mean, I think he really wavers on 180 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: his feelings toward the family. In the cross examination, defense 181 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: attorney John Parker drew a stark dividing line between the 182 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: Wagner brothers. It's George and Jake. Are they the same? Nope? 183 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: Explain it if you could ate night. Can you give 184 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: me some more details out George is different than Jake. 185 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: Man and him, we vibed a lot better because we 186 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: both like about the same things. Okay, we had a 187 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: lot of the same mentors. Jake not so much. All right, 188 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: it's we was all like brothers. Yes, he was like 189 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: the brother that always wanted him. Jake would like the 190 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: brother I wish I never had. And if you needed 191 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: something in the middle of the night, could you call George. Absolutely, 192 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: you'd show up in the middle of the night. Absolutely, 193 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: no questions ask a. Ji. Kanappa, however, was quick to 194 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: diffuse any notion that George was all that different from 195 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 1: the rest of the Wagner clan, and you indicated that 196 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: Jake would basically fall into line pretty quickly with Angela, 197 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: but George might push back a little more. He would 198 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: push back, okay, in the end, would you still do 199 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: what his mother told him to do most of the time? Yeah, okay, 200 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: So he'd argue, but in the end he would do 201 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: what you said. Yeah. And again, the first time they 202 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: went to Alaska, was that as a family four of them, yes, okay. 203 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: And when they went back to Alaska again, it was 204 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: all four of them as a family, correct, all four 205 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: of them plus the kids, you know, the two kids, right, okay? 206 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: And during George's adult life, have you ever known him 207 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: not to live with his mother and his brother? No? 208 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: One thing Jake and George did see eye to eye 209 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: on was their favorite movie and TV show. According to 210 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: Chris Nukam, they were Boondock Saints and The Walking Dead, 211 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: And it was both Jake and George who said that 212 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: their favorite movie was Boondock Saints. Pretty sure, And can 213 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: you tell us generally what the theme of that movie is? 214 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: Two brothers and their idiot friend kill a bunch of 215 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: mafia guys and hit man and anybody had anything to do 216 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: do with the mafia. And in one of the series, 217 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: does the father also join them? That's Boondock Sinnes too. Yeah. 218 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell us was there a time that you 219 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: saw both Jake and George with their hair dyed dark? Yes? Okay? 220 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: And can you tell him tell me how you remember that? 221 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: They just showed up at the house one day and 222 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: I told him it it looked stupid or dumb. And 223 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: was there any comment made by either one of them 224 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: explaining why did you dye their hair? Jake's laugh and said, 225 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: don't you think I looked like Darryl? And I thought, 226 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: not even close? And who is Darryl character off The 227 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: Walking Dead? Okay? And that character is played by Norman 228 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: Reads correct, yes, and he also plays one of the 229 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: brothers in Queendoc Saints. Correct. Yes. And can you remember 230 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: when that was in relation to the homicides when you 231 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: saw them with their hair dyed? I can't remember. He's 232 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: right before, right after somewhere around the area. We're going 233 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 234 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The 235 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: girl friends. Back in the nineteen nine yes, in Las Vegas, 236 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 237 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 238 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 239 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He choked into the point she went unconscious. 240 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 241 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 242 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 243 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 244 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 245 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 246 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 247 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 248 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 249 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm glabe here, host 250 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the 251 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: misunderstood story you won't hear anywhere else. Like our ongoing 252 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focused college 253 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra 254 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: zeros or witness me? After years of fancy public speaking 255 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The 256 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 257 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do work with, 258 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're 259 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: making more revisionist history for you this year than ever 260 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: from places all across this great country emergency rooms, huge theaters, 261 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put 262 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: your thumb up, like the are you gonna pull the 263 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: trigger with this finger here? Okay? Listen to revisionist history 264 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 265 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney, hell is going on here? 266 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this. 267 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: I just thought it was just a really terrible immoral thing, 268 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: a line they won't cross. I was stunned, and I 269 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: just said, no, we're killing people. You may never have 270 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: to face that decision when you find yourself at that line. 271 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: Thou its ricin, aren't ricin? And somebody needs to just 272 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: for once give everybody the whole truth, like this is 273 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: evil and the only person who can sound the alarm 274 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy 275 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. If you are 276 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: disloyal men, things are going to happen. To speak out 277 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: disgrace through our gun. Evil play should be prosecuted when 278 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm 279 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 280 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 281 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: a Very Cocks. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host 282 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award 283 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time 284 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: to touch incredible guests about important things people like me 285 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: have been screaming for years. We've got to watch the 286 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing 287 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: is evil. They will take things away, and I can 288 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, 289 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: you and I both know what it took to just 290 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: get through the day in New York City and get 291 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: home in one piece. And so the fact that we're 292 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 1: here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 293 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 294 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 295 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 296 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne 297 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 298 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. 299 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: During her questioning, Conepa showed a clip from Boondoc Saints 300 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: to the jury. Law and Order crime reporter Angeanette Levy, 301 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: who has been following the case from the beginning and 302 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: was in the courtroom, explains the Boondock Saint clip. We 303 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: kind of knew a long time ago from seeing some 304 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: court records that that was somehow relevant or the prosecution 305 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: believe that was pertinent to the case or had some 306 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: something to do with the case. And it's just like 307 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: this clip of I guess a Mexican man holding up 308 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: to nineteen eleven twenty two calibers with silencers on them 309 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: and saying ding dong, mother effort. So there are two 310 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: brothers in that movie who are twins and they go 311 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: out on this vigilante killing spree in the name of 312 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: religion and Chris Newcomb test fight that this was Jake 313 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: and George's favorite movie. So we think that the prosecution 314 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: is going to say, hey, this is, you know, something 315 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: they liked, this is something that influenced them. Here again, 316 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: Stephanie and Jeff. These movie references, in the fact that 317 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: George and Jake both dyed their hair black has gotten 318 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: a lot of play throughout this trial. And on the 319 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: one hand, yeah, of course it's very interesting and strange 320 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: and scary. On the flip of that, does that really 321 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: count as major evidence. We've heard a lot over the 322 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: years about various criminals being influenced by the media, whether 323 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: it be a violent video game or a scary movie, 324 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: and I think this is a perfect example of the 325 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: prosecution really making a meal of that and whether or 326 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: not it actually was an influence. It's, like you said, 327 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: stuff very hard to prove in court, and there's a 328 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: million holes you could poke in at. Again, it does 329 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: make it interesting. You could see the movie. You can 330 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: see this playing out like a movie, but this is 331 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: real life. The stakes are so high. I had a 332 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: conversation with Jason Flom, founding board member of The Innocence Project, 333 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction and producer of 334 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: the podcasts Bone Valley and the newly released War on Drugs. 335 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: I asked him first about his connection to the movie 336 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: Boondock Saints, and I think I was working at Atlantic 337 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: Records at the time, but I don't remember which label 338 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: it was, to be fair, because you know, my day 339 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: job is and has been as a music exactive. Now 340 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: it seems like I got more well known for criminal 341 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: justice reform work, but I have been in the music 342 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: business since I was eighteen years old, and that's a 343 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: lot of years anyway, So I was working at a 344 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: label and Boondock Saints came to my attention. The singer 345 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: Troy had written this script that had become the object 346 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: of a huge bidding war Hollywood. I learned that he 347 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: had a band by the same name as the movie 348 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: and the script, and which was called the Boondock Scenes. 349 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: So naturally I was curious because this seems like such 350 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: an almost too good to be true story, bartender, bidding war, 351 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing. So I don't remember how 352 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: I first got in touch with them, but somehow and 353 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: ended up meeting with the guys. I think I may 354 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: have seen them play and I was impressed and the 355 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: music was good, so I signed them to a record deal. 356 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the cultural relevancy 357 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: of the movie. I mean, it was a phenomenon that's 358 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: obviously still talked about today. Yeah, the movie became this. 359 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: I guess you could call it a cult classic. I 360 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: don't know how else to refer to it. I think 361 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: in terms of its impact relative to its commercial success, 362 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: you put it at the top of that sort of 363 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: matrix right where It's been talked about and continues to 364 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: be talked about and shows like yours for the most 365 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: random of reasons. And it's such a crazy coincidence that 366 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: I have the connection to the Boondock Saints. And because 367 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: I've always been a, you know, a rock guy. I've 368 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: always liked rock and roll music always, I've signed rock 369 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: and roll music throughout my career. It's amazing that this 370 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: movie has resonated when how many tens of thousands of 371 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: movies have been made since then, and many of them 372 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: are you have lots of guns and lots of shootings, 373 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: and lots of violence and lots of everything that The 374 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: Boondock Saints has, But this one, for some reason, has 375 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: really stuck in the zitgeist. What are your thoughts about 376 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: the fact that the prosecution and a murder trial is 377 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: playing a clip of the movie, specifically they play the 378 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: ding Dong motherfucker portion of it. And also, you know, 379 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: what they're saying is that the Wagner's the family that, 380 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: specifically Jake, who admitted to murdering five of the eight murderers, 381 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: that he watched it right before to get psyched up 382 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: quote for the murders. I mean that is a sort 383 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: of dirty trick that's used, you know. Now, I guess 384 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: it's a hot topic because it's used in these trials 385 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: where they're actually almost trying hip hop artists on their lyrics, right, 386 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: they're using those as like evidence when it's art. You know, 387 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's not an alfi David, Like David 388 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: Bowie sang a song about being an astronaut, but he 389 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: wasn't an astronaut, right, nobody's confused about that. The idea 390 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: that these things can or should be used in a 391 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: court of law strikes me as absurd, And maybe that's 392 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: too kind of a word. You know, you look back 393 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: on cases like the West Memphis three, right where the 394 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: idea that they liked heavy metal music was a big 395 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: they had no evidence against them. It's hard for me 396 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: to see how that's relevant. To me. It seems whether 397 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: it happened or not, just so besides the point and 398 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: the relevancy in a court of law seems insane to me. 399 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: I think it's a very cynical way of prosecutors trying 400 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: to manipulate juries into believing what they want them to believe, 401 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: often not in this case necessarily, but in many cases, 402 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: often because they have no evidence against the person, like 403 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: the West Memphis three, but more recently, you know, we 404 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: did a podcast on my show Wrongful Conviction. We covered 405 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: the case of Patti Pruett. Maggie Feeling hosted that episode, 406 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: and Patty Pruett was and is an innocent woman in 407 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: Missouri who's been in prison for thirty six years, and 408 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: the only evidence they really had against her was the 409 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: fact that you liked to read crime novels. I mean, 410 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: that's what people read. They read romance, now, was, they 411 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: read crime now was? It doesn't mean anything, it just 412 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: means that's what they like to read. So, you know, 413 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: the idea that they were able to weaponize the fact 414 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: that she enjoyed books by whether it's Scott Patterson or 415 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: Scott two Hour or John Grisham. Is so, you know, 416 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. And I 417 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: think there's a line. It's not the same, but there's 418 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: a line between these things. And I hope that people 419 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: that are listening to us now when they serve on 420 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: juries will remember this and discount any sort of nonsense 421 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: that's thrown their way along these lines. Again, much has 422 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: been made in courts about the fact that Jake and 423 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: George died their hair black, allegedly to look like Norman 424 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: Redis not Saints. You know, do you think that should 425 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: be a topic of conversation in a murder trial or 426 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: the let's say they died their hair blonde to look 427 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: like the guy in Fast Times at Richmond High, right, 428 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, does that mean that they 429 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: didn't do it? Because if one is true, then shouldn't 430 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: the other be true? I mean, what what does that 431 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: have to do with anything? It all comes back to 432 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: the same thing, which is that, you know, one of 433 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: the reasons why I do this work and why I 434 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: think this platform is so important, and the podcasting platform 435 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: is so im part is because we need to have 436 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: a more educated and more skeptical pool of jurors who 437 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: will look at actual evidence instead of hyperbole in situation 438 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: and other sorts of nonsense like I said, that's thrown 439 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: their way, and then make judgments on the fact. And 440 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: if I could encourage people that are listening, serve on juries. 441 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: Number one, don't throw out the jury doing serve on juries. 442 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: It's not just a responsibility, it should be an honor. 443 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: And second of all, when you do, remember the standard 444 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: is and must be beyond a reasonable doubt. And the 445 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: other phrase to remember is innocent until proven guilty, not 446 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: the other way around. Just because somebody's sitting in the 447 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: defendant's chair, and just because there's people in uniforms or 448 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: in suits and ties or in lab coats that are saying, yep, um, 449 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: you know Courtney did it because we say so, And 450 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: that's not that's not it. Unfortunately, it seems like the 451 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: situation has gotten It certainly doesn't feel like it's getting better, 452 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: but it almost feels like it's it's just at a 453 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: very low bar. What happens in our courtrooms. We should 454 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: expect that our elected prosecutors or judges or appointed or 455 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: whatever they may be, would adhere to a standard that is, 456 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, the ideal that you know, the justice with 457 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: the scales and the blindfold, and that's the standard. I 458 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: hope I live long enough to see it where we 459 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: have a system that really does it at least does 460 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: its best to get it right. Following testimony about the 461 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: Boondock Saints and potential elevency of the hair dye, there 462 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: was also discussion of the profile picture George Wagner began 463 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: to use after the murders. It was a depiction of 464 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: a one eyed wolf, whether or not George Wagner was 465 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: aware of it. Wolves are native symbols of loyalty and 466 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: close family ties. And was there also something that you 467 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: saw on Facebook that looking back, there was a profile 468 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: picture on Facebook? And what was that wolf missing an eye? 469 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: And why did that? When looking back, what significance did 470 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: that have to you? Just kind of ironic, I guess 471 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: you could call it. And why was it ironic because 472 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: it was a wolf shot in the face? Were you 473 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: aware of one of the victims being shot in the eye? Okay? 474 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: And whose profile was that? George? I hope you know 475 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: where the questions at this time owner. We're going to 476 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 477 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The 478 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 479 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 480 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 481 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. 482 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. 483 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 484 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 485 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 486 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 487 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 488 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 489 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 490 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 491 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: The Girlfriend on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 492 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello. Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here, host 493 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the 494 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else like our ongoing 495 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focused college 496 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra 497 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, 498 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The 499 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 500 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do work with, 501 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're 502 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: making more revisionist history for you this year than ever 503 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: from places all across this great country emergency rooms, huge theaters, 504 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put 505 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: your thumb up like the US Are you gonna pull 506 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: the trigger with this finger here? Okay? Listen to revisionist 507 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: history on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever 508 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney, hell is 509 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted 510 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: a situation like this. I just thought it was just 511 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: a really terrible immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 512 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 513 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 514 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line out Ricin ars Ricin, and 515 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 516 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can 517 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 518 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 519 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen to 520 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: this week out disgrace through our gun people pay should 521 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: be prosecuted when power corrupts. Conscience is the last line 522 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on 523 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 524 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and 525 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my 526 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always 527 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: time to touch incredible guests about important things people like 528 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch 529 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're 530 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: doing is evil. They will take things away and I 531 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, 532 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: You and I both know what it took to just 533 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: get through the day in New York City and get 534 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: home in one piece. And so the fact that we're 535 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 536 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 537 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 538 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 539 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Verne 540 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,719 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 541 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: you get your podcast, be sure to subscribe and share. 542 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan has doubts about whether Chris Newcomb's testimony bolstered 543 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case. You know, you think, well, when they 544 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: got back to their office, prosecution look at one another 545 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I don't necessarily know if mister Newcomb 546 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: is the best best witness for us in this case. 547 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: Because you know, when you're you know, you began to 548 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: paint George per this guy's testimony as not the monster 549 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: that perhaps prosecution wanted him painted as. I don't know 550 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: that he necessarily helped prosecution's case. More on that next time. 551 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: I continued my conversation with Jason Flam, specifically his thoughts 552 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: on people who have been wrongfully convicted. The only thing 553 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: I'll add is that for the audience, you have such 554 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: an awesome audience, and you know, for them, I'll say, 555 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: if you don't think this can happen to you, this 556 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: can happen to you. And if you don't believe me, 557 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: listen to Wrongful Conviction. You'll see. It's like these stories 558 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: are just absolutely mind book. If I start with the 559 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: Patti Pruin episode, your head will explode and you'll want 560 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: to literally jump on a turnpike and drive to Missouri 561 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: and protest, like, what is this woman doing in prison? 562 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't make any freaking sense. And that's true of 563 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: every episode that we covered. I can sincerely say I 564 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: love your shows. They're beautifully done, and as a listener, 565 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: I really appreciate everything you do. We're all in this together, 566 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm very proud of where we're at. 567 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: And you know, with Bone Valley being such a big head, 568 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of the fans of Pike 569 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: the Massacre are probably fans of Bone Valley as well. 570 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: And now we have our new show that the War 571 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: on Drugs that just brought today so very excited about 572 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: this twenty twenty three, we're going to We're going to 573 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,959 Speaker 1: continue to one's hearts and minds. And it's interesting because 574 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: your shows sort of be almost like a counterpoint. But 575 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: at the same time, even though it seems overwhelmingly likely 576 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: that they got the right people here in your show, 577 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: it's still an incredible expose of how busted up the 578 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: system is in Ohio and elsewhere. So I'm really proud 579 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: of the work that you do. Thank you so much, 580 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: Jason Really. For more information on the case and relevant photos, 581 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked 582 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieder, 583 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 584 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tua. Music by Jared Aston. The 585 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Kati Studios. 586 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the Heart 587 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 588 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast 589 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, 590 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: and it is time to find a husband. There were 591 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. 592 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: One of them was Baron Bout. On paper, he was perfect, 593 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked and 594 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: to the point she went unconscious. I would call him 595 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 596 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, 597 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. From iHeart 598 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: Podcasts and Nomadic Engine, the acclaimed dramatic thriller returns after 599 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: Shock season two. She's like a ghost. We had an 600 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: agreement to keep each other's secrets. None of you were 601 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: making decisions to keep the rest of us safe, which 602 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: leaves me I'm asking for your forgiveness. After Shock season two, 603 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: starring Sarah in Kelly's, David Harbor and Jeffrey Dean Morgan. 604 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: Listened to Aftershock on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 605 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. This is the story of 606 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: a man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, 607 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: and that's a name you don't forget. He was a 608 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: visionary who built a fortune as a black man during 609 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: Jim Crow during the depression, but today not many people 610 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: know about him. The race sort of wiped out, and 611 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet 612 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever 613 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Free and I'm rthy. 614 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: We have spent the last twenty years building and working 615 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: at some of the largest companies in the world. We 616 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: worked with some remarkable people, Rob mcalinney. When I see 617 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them. 618 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: Check out the Arthi and Trrom show. That is a 619 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: R D HI and s R I R A M show. 620 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: Listen to the Art Instrum Show on the iHeartRadio app, 621 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.