WEBVTT - Ken Kwapis - Pt. 1 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.240 I'm Ken Kappas. I I am a director. I directed 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:20.400 the pilot of the Office and many other episodes. Hello everybody, 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.040 this is the Office Deep Dive, and I am your 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:28.960 host Brian baum Gartner. How's everybody doing out there? Is everybody? Okay? 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.559 I wish I could hear you. Um today you will 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:39.080 be listening to me and my conversation with Ken Kappas 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.919 now as usual, no one can put it better than 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:48.280 Greg Daniels. And Greg described Ken as the country vet 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.839 who birthed this puppy, this puppy being the American Office, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.000 and this is so true. Ken was. He was the 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.360 director of the pilot, but also so many of our 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:07.880 most beloved episodes. He directed Diversity, Day, Booze, Cruise, The Fire, 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:13.120 The Job, Casino Night Gave which the finale. Honestly, there 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.080 are too many to name, but you should go look 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:23.759 him up. Ken is such um sweet nice guy one 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:29.280 and two. He He also has a really unique directing style. Um. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.360 He wrote a book recently actually called but what I 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.160 really want to do is direct lessons from a life 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.360 behind a camera. And to get to sit down and 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.600 talk with him about all of that, that was my pleasure. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:51.480 So on that note in homage to Ken Ken Go ahead, 0:01:55.600 --> 0:02:03.800 bub I love it, Bubble, We're gonna bubble and Squeaker 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:19.200 cook at every moment left over from the nut before. Hello, sir, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:24.480 I'm coming around for another hacks. Yes, it's so good 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.519 to see you, So good to see you, to see you. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:35.000 I and I'm glad, uh you're doing this well. I 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.040 think that there's a story here that needs to be told. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.399 I you know what I was saying to Margaret that 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.600 I have been It's not a book about the office, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.240 but I'm actually I'm writing a book about directing, right, 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.120 just a general book about directing, and it certainly includes, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.680 you know, some of our experiences. But I but I 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.040 have been approached by a bunch of people and I've 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.119 just basically now, I say, is Greg doing this right? 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.880 So right? The first person that I went to was Greg, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:06.480 and I said, look, this is what we want to do, 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.840 and he was totally supportive. And you know, they're finishing 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.519 editing his or sorry, finished shooting his show this week, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.200 well in fact on Raleigh, because that's where Angela and 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.160 I were doing this other show. So literally I saw Greg. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.840 I wander over to his that math did you go visit. No, 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.080 I haven't been there yet, this massive out of this 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:34.560 space whatever worship right and uh, but yeah, no, I 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.680 can't wait to see it. Yeah, see it? Um? Now 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.520 did you had you worked with Greg before the Office? 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.960 I met him when I was invited to meet him 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.520 to direct the pilot of the Office. Okay, so so 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.120 before the pilot, what what were you were working on 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.240 Bernie Mac? Yeah, that seems specifically what I was doing. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.440 I had worked on the show Malcolm in the Middle. 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.480 I directed nineteen episodes of Malcolm in the Middle. I 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.119 helped launch the Bernie Max Show with Larry Wilmore, and 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.600 I was working on I think. Yeah, so I was 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.480 working on the Bernie Mac Show when I got the 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.760 call to meet with Greg. Right, and were you familiar 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.240 with the British version of the show. I was familiar 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.560 with it, but I hadn't seen much of it. I 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.440 think I may have only seen the pilot episode of 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.039 the British show, right. And now we shot the pilot 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:34.680 and the first season in the production offices above the 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.640 sound stage, right. I mean we built within, We built 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.440 within a practical space, and in fact, one of the 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.880 things that we did when we moved to the whatever 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.279 we call it warehouse. What are we calling that the warehouse? 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.160 I guess. When we built the dunder Mifflin's set, one 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.640 of the things that Greg and I definitely discussed was 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.280 the idea of not making any walls movable while the bowl. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.960 And the idea was that since this was a you know, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.680 quote documentary, that directors had to respect the physical limitations 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.159 of the space, so that if you couldn't get an angle, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.120 you couldn't get an angle. And that was again it 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.080 was it was sort of a way to signal to 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.800 directors coming down the line that you know, you had 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.120 to kind of honor the space. And again, if this 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.799 were any other kind of either single camera or multi 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.480 camera situation, you just move a wall out of the 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.680 way and get back and in some cases get almost 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.599 a procenium view of the action. And one of the 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.240 things I loved, not just in the pilot, but in 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.800 episodes in the second season in particular, was creating a 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.039 sense that we were blocked from seeing the action properly, 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:48.880 or or even that you know, some either a pillar 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.200 or a file cabinet, something was in our way and 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.640 we couldn't quite get a good angle on things, and 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.479 that increased the realism. Yeah, I mean, I think that 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.480 so much of what Greg and I discussed in terms of, 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.839 you know, a camera style was how to uh, you know, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.760 create a sense that we were there observing people, observing characters. Obviously, 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.440 it's not a secret that the staff of dunder Mifflin 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.800 knows they're being observed, they know they're being filmed. Most 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.200 of the staff members don't want to be filmed, except 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.520 for you know, Michael Scott. So part of it was 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.960 just trying to come up with visual ideas that would 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.839 either we would sort of be in a character's face 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.840 and and and you know, for instance, if I was 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.200 shooting you, you, if I was this far from you, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.800 you'd know I'm there. Or we'd wed, you know, kind 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.919 of hide behind a shrub or a file cabinet and 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.680 sort of eavesdrop on the action a little bit more 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.160 so that we could sort of observe without characters knowing 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:49.599 we were. They're looking at them. And I'm always mindful that, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.200 you know, it was Greg's decision not to shoot the 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:57.400 series at a studio. We you know, we weren't at Universal, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.760 we weren't, you know, and it was his choice to 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.479 you know, find this warehouse in this scrubby section of 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.839 the valley, so that even if it wasn't actual Scranton, 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.840 it was definitely not Hollywood, and it definitely felt like, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.400 you know, where were we? Why are we coming all 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.640 the way out into this kind of bizarre area to 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.880 shoot this show in a warehouse? And you know, it 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.560 wasn't like we used the surroundings very often, but I 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:28.400 think Greg really wanted to give us an opportunity to 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.720 not feel like we were in a show. Right. We're 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.600 definitely gonna talk a little bit more about that, but 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.400 um so you and Greg met and was there any 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.560 discussion at that time about making the American version. Let's 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.880 just call it that the American version versus where there 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:49.840 are things that you wanted immediately to do differently before 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.560 we started work on the pilot. As I recalled, there 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.080 was a British show and I'm blanking out on the 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:56.880 name of it. It was a comedy. It was kind 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.360 of like a romantic slash sex comedy show. God, I 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.000 can't remember the name of it, but anyways, it was 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.160 a show that either NBC or some other network tried 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.720 to do a U S version of and it didn't work, 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.240 And one of the things that Greg and I definitely 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.560 discussed was the need to maintain the kind of the 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:19.920 unorthodox approach of the UK show, not exactly mimicking the 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.320 tone of it, but for me as a director visually 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.760 sort of trying to maintain the style that what's the 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.080 right way to put it where where it feels like 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.320 we were catching the action by accident that things were 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.360 not being staged for the camera, and I mean everyone, 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:36.920 I think you know, there are a lot of people 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.960 were saying, well, this is going to fail because no 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.599 network will allow you to do what they did in 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.640 the UK version. But in fact, I think, you know, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:49.559 Greg leading the charge, and certain people at NBC understanding 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.080 that it wouldn't work unless it it wouldn't work if 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.360 it traveled down the middle of the road, or it 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.480 had to at least aspire to the same kind of 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.480 you know, offbeat quality that the original at or else 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.240 it just wouldn't play, and so on on every level 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.480 that affected every decision. I mean, I can go through 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.080 any number of things, including the decision to do screen 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:16.600 tests and improvisation instead of the traditional, you know, approach 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.800 of bringing the finalists for a role in front of 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:25.679 a bunch of really humorist network executives, right right, And 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.000 so I mean in place of that, we we shot 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.240 a lot of screen tests with different combinations of actors, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.760 and I feel like that made all the difference in 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.200 the world in terms of I don't know, it just 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.400 it changed the whole tenor of how the cast played 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.600 the scenes that we weren't trying to sell them. It 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.400 wasn't joking. We weren't selling jokes. It was it was. 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.760 One of the hallmarks of the show, obviously, is the 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:58.160 kind of very understated, often kind of mute quality that 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.000 you know, like character is who have nothing to say, 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.720 We're just sort of start there with us. And I 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.760 think that was that's not the kind of thing you're 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:10.559 going to communicate well in a traditional network executive audition, 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.800 Like in a network test. It's like theater in a 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.640 huge room with no camera there. And I think Jenna 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.760 and Rain both talked about you brought the camera in 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:27.320 and asked the actors to also behave as though the 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.680 camera were character. And I think that, you know, every 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.600 actor sort of developed his or her own relationship with 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.480 the camera, and some people were more eager to acknowledge 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.360 the camera, Like, you know, John's character, I think pretty quickly, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.640 you know, kind of makes a friend of the camera, Jenna. 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.720 I think there's moments where it feels like Jenna wants 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.680 to crawl under the reception desk, right, And so I 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.360 think everybody had their own specific relationship to the camera, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.959 and that's something we started to uh explore in the 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.800 in the screen test period. So that was one choice 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.280 or one thing that Greg insisted on. And all credit 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.400 to Greg for insisting that we not go the traditional 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.400 route in terms of bringing actors to a network for 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:14.960 the auditions. Do you remember was there any pushback about that? No, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.240 I don't remember any crush back about it, because again, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.839 I feel like the people at NBC at that moment 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.720 sort of I don't want to say they indulged Greg 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.560 or indulged us, but I think they just knew on 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.600 some level they had to let us do this in 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.760 a different way. The UK show was so beloved, partly 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.439 because of its tone, partly because of its very unusual 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.880 visual style, and I think they knew to like kind 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.680 of get out of the way at least in certain ways. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.400 I mean, I can say that one of the other 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.840 things we did during the pilot shoot itself was we 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:53.560 started each day with, you know, shooting basically documentary footage 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.840 of the whole cast, the entire ensemble, just at their desks, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.280 and both Greg and I kind of borrowed Ricky Gervais 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.240 and Stephen Merchants phrase general views. We didn't call them 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.640 establishing shots right then. We keep calling them b roles, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.800 but general but that was that was I don't know 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:15.160 if that's a general term in Great Britain for an 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.560 establishing shot or something, but Ricky said, oh, we would 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.840 just do general views. And so each morning during the 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.480 pilot shoot we started the day with quote general views 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.840 of people at work. And what was great about it 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.600 was there was no story going on. It was just 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.520 everyone at their desks, you know, you and Angela and 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.480 Oscar sort of you know, doing accounting work. We would 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.240 take shots of things that were just by definition like 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.360 so mundane like and some of them I think got 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.000 into the credit role at the beginning the title sequence, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.080 like I think rain like sticking the things into the 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.720 paper shredder and things like that, shredding me doing the 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:56.439 absolutely yeah, adding machine, the adding machine. Those were things 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.480 I think that came out of the general views. Definitely. 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.640 I think Eve adjusting his little trophy on his desk 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.560 was one of the general views. And what I do 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.000 remember you asked about network pushback was I remember getting 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.320 a comment from some executive not understanding why. For example, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.640 they were like lunge like lengthy shots of like the 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:23.040 water cooler, or you know, why is there a lengthy 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:27.120 shot of rain sharpening pencils? What is the purpose of this? 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.280 So it wasn't exactly paying you for this, So I 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.280 wasn't pushedback, but it was definitely like what are you 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.160 guys doing? And then and and by the way, you 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.199 can shoot a lot of footage and a half hour, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.400 and we usually spent about a half hour before we 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.000 kind of slid into a scene. And one of the 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:51.360 things that I discovered in this process is that the 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.760 cast during the i'll call it the g V section 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.160 of each of our days, they knew they were being observed, 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.320 They knew they were the subject of a document entry, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.400 and that when we then moved into a scene, it 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:05.720 wasn't like we now went into show mode, you know, 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.800 it was like we we we were still in a 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.560 kind of documentary mode. And so I think the general 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.960 views created it kind of lived in reality. It feels 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.160 like they've been there working there for years. Well, that's 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:22.920 that's fascinating. I think it did something else as well, 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.760 And I'm curious if this was an unwitting benefit or 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:29.800 if there was some thought to this. I mean, you 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:35.280 had every actor essentially there from four thirty or five 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.920 am or whatever time it was, to be ready by 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.280 seven or seven thirty in the morning. We didn't do 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.720 the general views when it was convenient during the day 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.000 when everyone was there. It was about bringing everybody in 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:52.200 and I think that that is what started building the ensemble. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.440 You know, It's funny because I one of the things, um, 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.640 one of the advantages we had is that the pilot 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.840 takes plays by and large in the bullpen, So it 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.640 wasn't like there were scenes in the parking lot or 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.040 anywhere else and the bullpen, except for the hr section 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.560 of the office, the bullpen requires everyone to be there, 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.640 and in theory, each the actors are not entirely clear 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.760 when the camera's going to find them. So when we 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.560 did the general views, yeah, I mean, it definitely created 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.840 a sense of ensemble. And I would also say that 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.760 it felt like whatever else you might think of that pilot, 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:28.920 and I love the pilot. One of the things that 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.080 really strikes me when I look at it now, it 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.560 doesn't feel like oh new show. It feels like we were, 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.760 we've we've we've wandered into a place that's, you know, 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.320 going about its dreary way the same way it has 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:43.640 been for the past couple of years or more. So 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.920 I think it kind of helped, uh people just sort 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.360 of start to create a little sense of what their 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:54.080 normal days like. There was also something we did that 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.120 it was kind of impractical to continue doing this over time. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:01.560 But during the pilot shoot, with the exception of Peter 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.520 Smokeler who was shooting Greg and myself and maybe maybe 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.840 the boom operator I'm not even sure, probably, but no 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.240 one else actually was allowed on the set, including hair 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.360 and makeup, and as I recall, we kind of gave 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.200 everyone a little compact. And obviously this is not something 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.120 you could sustain for a long time, but that was 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.560 definitely something Greg and I spoke of to kind of 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.120 create a sense that what's the right way to put it, basically, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.760 how do you how do we create a real space, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.000 a real workplace. But my hope was that it just 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.640 made people feel, you know, a little bit trapped in 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.120 their workplace right well, and that is a great word 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.680 that I use all the time. Trapped. We were trapped 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.360 within the confines the walls. There were no movable walls. 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.720 We were all there together and all arriving at roughly 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:55.840 the same time and showing up on set at the 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.840 same time, which forced us to make relationships. I've actually 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.760 never talked with Greg about this, but I mean that 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:08.520 Greg's decision to embed within the ensemble writers also, I 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.919 think helped grow grew that sense of ensemble in a 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:13.920 way that it wouldn't have if they if the writing 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.840 staff was always at arm's length from the from the calf. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.200 I want to go back for a second to the casting, 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.920 and um, how obvious was it to you or how 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.639 difficult were the decisions for you in casting? You know, 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.040 it wasn't obvious across the board because there are a 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.880 lot of good people who came in and and so 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.720 there were like a lot of viable, you know, versions 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.240 of different characters. But I do think that, um, I 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.720 mean again, part of what was fun in the screen 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.719 tests was just sort of you know, starting to not 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.199 only see people in pairs, but starting to see a 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.280 whole picture of a group of people. I mean that. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.480 And by the way, when you talk about ensemble, one 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.119 of the things I was so happy about with the 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.520 pilot is even if some characters aren't don't have speaking parts, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.960 they are they're they're very present. And I remember that, 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.560 you know, one of the things that Greg insisted on, 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.760 you know, as as with any half hour comedy, at 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.040 the end of the pilot shoot, the network sends down 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.040 a photographer to do, like, you know, a bunch of 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.960 glossy shots of the actors looking cute and jumping up 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.320 and down and all that, and we were so determed. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.240 That was you know, we pushed back, I shouldn't say we. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.280 Greg pushed back and insisted that we not do anything 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.520 traditional like that, anything that would scream comedy. So that 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.040 what we did instead was the our Christmas card photo. 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.119 So we got the group together for a kind of 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.760 candid dunder Mifflin, you know, Xmas card photo, and that 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.720 was our marketing photo. That was it. There were and 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.640 if you go to if you like, if you were 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.080 to go to NBC at that time and walk down 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.480 the halls, you know, you'd see giant glossy shots of 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.439 each of the comedy stars, not the ensemble. And that 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.440 was the other part of it. It wasn't Steve standing. 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.639 And in fact, I think there was actually a discussion 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:29.840 on the set about, you know, let's put Steve in 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:31.840 the foreground of the shot of the group for the 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.080 Christmas card. And I think Steve or Greg, or you know, 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.600 both of them said absolutely not, he's he's in the group, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.360 and that boy, that really sent the right signal. Yeah. Absolutely. 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.360 I mean the work that you all did to create 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.360 that ensemble early on, and of course, you know, as 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.320 you know, really no one was famous that you know, 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.919 Steve had done the Bruce Almighty movie and he was 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.800 on The Daily Show before the Daily Show was cool. 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.320 And you know Rain had done the one arc on 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.680 six ft Under and that was pretty much it. Why 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.119 was that so important for you? Well, I again, I 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.400 will defer to Greg because it was Greg's decision, and 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.680 Greg was the one who, no doubt made the argument 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.200 to the network that it's best not to have known 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.000 faces in the show. I mean, I think the again, 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.680 everything has to do with creating this kind of Barris 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.760 similitude that this is a show, this is not a show. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.119 It's a it's part of a documentary about a group 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.240 of people who work in a paper company, so you 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.240 wouldn't know them. There's no need, there's no reason you'd 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.720 see a star in a in a workplace like that. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.520 And I think that, you know, in terms of the 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.080 wardrobe choices, the makeup and hair choices, I mean, you know, 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.320 you know, everything was sort of designed to make it 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.560 feel like these are people who don't belong on television, 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.280 let alone on a primetime half hour comedy. And Steve, 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.880 you know though, I felt that one of the things 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.000 Steve did so well is that he's the one character 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.400 who's who's so excited about a documentary crew being there 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.600 because Michael Scott fancies himself a superstar. But weirdly enough, 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:16.000 even Steve, I think, somehow both played to the camera, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:21.400 but also it was himself the subject of a documentary too. 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.560 He somehow, and it's it's one of the things I 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:29.160 just marvel at. You know, Michael Scott is grandstanding and 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.919 you know, making jokes, and he's playing to the camera, 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:37.240 but the character doesn't quite realize it, but we're observing him. 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.360 He's he's under the microscope and Steve somehow kind of 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.360 found that weird duality. Tell me about what's true and 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:51.119 what's what's lore or fairy tale. How did Phillis get 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:56.760 cast in the show? I well, I will tell you 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.879 what happened. So, um, we were doing, uh probably know, 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:06.800 kind of more traditional auditions, and in the room Greg, myself, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.600 Phyllis Allison, and the setup was is that I sat 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.160 next to a video camera and on the other side 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.080 of the video camera Phillis was sitting and Phillis was 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.239 reading off and Phyllis was her casting associate. And I 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.760 hadn't met Phyllis. All I knew is I was sitting 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.399 next to her, and there was a camera between us 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.920 and the actors who were auditioning were some of them 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.120 were kind of playing it to the hilt and kind 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.600 of working a little too hard. Phillis, meanwhile, was reading 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:39.960 her lines in in this very kind of monotonal way, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.200 sometimes not even looking up at the actors, just looking 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.040 down at the sheet of paper. And I just became 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.480 fascinated with her and started looking at her. And there 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.080 was a couple of actors whose auditions I kind of 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:57.200 missed because I kept throwing Phyllis these glances and I finally, 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.880 during a break, I took Greg aside and I said, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.720 this woman really belongs in a paper company. And so 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:08.200 we Greg thought about it and he said sure. And 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:12.440 now there's a there is there is one additional detail 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:17.880 that's so wonderful, and that is that after Greg said sure, 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:20.679 let's ask her to be in the bullpen and she 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:22.720 agreed to do it. That Greg and I had a 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.280 discussion and Greg said, do you know if she can act? 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.840 And I took Phillis aside and I said, do you 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.040 have a lot of acting experience? And she said not 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:37.280 not really. But she said that some years earlier that 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:42.600 she had, you know, worked in burlesque in Branson, Missouri. 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:47.919 And I said stop it. And she then later that 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.480 week brought in a photo of herself into like a 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.399 very you know, wonderfully old fashioned burlescout. It was on 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:59.399 her desk for ten years and the So that is 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.879 the Phillis story and and I couldn't be happier that 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:08.199 she became such a beloved member of the ensemble. I 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.800 feel also responsible for Creed and I and I so 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.960 tell the Creed story. How did you know Creed? When 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.840