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Speaker 1: I'm Ken Kappas. I I am a director. I directed

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Speaker 1: the pilot of the Office and many other episodes. Hello everybody,

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Speaker 1: this is the Office Deep Dive, and I am your

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Speaker 1: host Brian baum Gartner. How's everybody doing out there? Is everybody? Okay?

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Speaker 1: I wish I could hear you. Um today you will

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Speaker 1: be listening to me and my conversation with Ken Kappas

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Speaker 1: now as usual, no one can put it better than

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Speaker 1: Greg Daniels. And Greg described Ken as the country vet

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Speaker 1: who birthed this puppy, this puppy being the American Office,

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Speaker 1: and this is so true. Ken was. He was the

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Speaker 1: director of the pilot, but also so many of our

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Speaker 1: most beloved episodes. He directed Diversity, Day, Booze, Cruise, The Fire,

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Speaker 1: The Job, Casino Night Gave which the finale. Honestly, there

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Speaker 1: are too many to name, but you should go look

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Speaker 1: him up. Ken is such um sweet nice guy one

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Speaker 1: and two. He He also has a really unique directing style. Um.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book recently actually called but what I

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Speaker 1: really want to do is direct lessons from a life

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Speaker 1: behind a camera. And to get to sit down and

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Speaker 1: talk with him about all of that, that was my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: So on that note in homage to Ken Ken Go ahead,

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Speaker 1: bub I love it, Bubble, We're gonna bubble and Squeaker

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Speaker 1: cook at every moment left over from the nut before. Hello, sir,

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Speaker 1: I'm coming around for another hacks. Yes, it's so good

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Speaker 1: to see you, So good to see you, to see you.

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Speaker 1: I and I'm glad, uh you're doing this well. I

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Speaker 1: think that there's a story here that needs to be told.

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Speaker 1: I you know what I was saying to Margaret that

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Speaker 1: I have been It's not a book about the office,

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Speaker 1: but I'm actually I'm writing a book about directing, right,

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Speaker 1: just a general book about directing, and it certainly includes,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of our experiences. But I but I

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Speaker 1: have been approached by a bunch of people and I've

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Speaker 1: just basically now, I say, is Greg doing this right?

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Speaker 1: So right? The first person that I went to was Greg,

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Speaker 1: and I said, look, this is what we want to do,

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Speaker 1: and he was totally supportive. And you know, they're finishing

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Speaker 1: editing his or sorry, finished shooting his show this week,

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Speaker 1: well in fact on Raleigh, because that's where Angela and

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Speaker 1: I were doing this other show. So literally I saw Greg.

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Speaker 1: I wander over to his that math did you go visit. No,

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Speaker 1: I haven't been there yet, this massive out of this

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Speaker 1: space whatever worship right and uh, but yeah, no, I

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Speaker 1: can't wait to see it. Yeah, see it? Um? Now

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Speaker 1: did you had you worked with Greg before the Office?

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Speaker 1: I met him when I was invited to meet him

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Speaker 1: to direct the pilot of the Office. Okay, so so

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Speaker 1: before the pilot, what what were you were working on

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Speaker 1: Bernie Mac? Yeah, that seems specifically what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: I had worked on the show Malcolm in the Middle.

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Speaker 1: I directed nineteen episodes of Malcolm in the Middle. I

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Speaker 1: helped launch the Bernie Max Show with Larry Wilmore, and

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Speaker 1: I was working on I think. Yeah, so I was

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Speaker 1: working on the Bernie Mac Show when I got the

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Speaker 1: call to meet with Greg. Right, and were you familiar

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Speaker 1: with the British version of the show. I was familiar

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Speaker 1: with it, but I hadn't seen much of it. I

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Speaker 1: think I may have only seen the pilot episode of

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Speaker 1: the British show, right. And now we shot the pilot

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Speaker 1: and the first season in the production offices above the

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Speaker 1: sound stage, right. I mean we built within, We built

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Speaker 1: within a practical space, and in fact, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we did when we moved to the whatever

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Speaker 1: we call it warehouse. What are we calling that the warehouse?

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Speaker 1: I guess. When we built the dunder Mifflin's set, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that Greg and I definitely discussed was

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Speaker 1: the idea of not making any walls movable while the bowl.

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Speaker 1: And the idea was that since this was a you know,

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Speaker 1: quote documentary, that directors had to respect the physical limitations

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Speaker 1: of the space, so that if you couldn't get an angle,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't get an angle. And that was again it

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Speaker 1: was it was sort of a way to signal to

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Speaker 1: directors coming down the line that you know, you had

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Speaker 1: to kind of honor the space. And again, if this

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Speaker 1: were any other kind of either single camera or multi

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Speaker 1: camera situation, you just move a wall out of the

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Speaker 1: way and get back and in some cases get almost

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Speaker 1: a procenium view of the action. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things I loved, not just in the pilot, but in

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Speaker 1: episodes in the second season in particular, was creating a

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Speaker 1: sense that we were blocked from seeing the action properly,

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Speaker 1: or or even that you know, some either a pillar

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Speaker 1: or a file cabinet, something was in our way and

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Speaker 1: we couldn't quite get a good angle on things, and

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Speaker 1: that increased the realism. Yeah, I mean, I think that

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Speaker 1: so much of what Greg and I discussed in terms of,

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Speaker 1: you know, a camera style was how to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: create a sense that we were there observing people, observing characters. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it's not a secret that the staff of dunder Mifflin

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Speaker 1: knows they're being observed, they know they're being filmed. Most

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Speaker 1: of the staff members don't want to be filmed, except

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Speaker 1: for you know, Michael Scott. So part of it was

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Speaker 1: just trying to come up with visual ideas that would

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Speaker 1: either we would sort of be in a character's face

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Speaker 1: and and and you know, for instance, if I was

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Speaker 1: shooting you, you, if I was this far from you,

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Speaker 1: you'd know I'm there. Or we'd wed, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of hide behind a shrub or a file cabinet and

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Speaker 1: sort of eavesdrop on the action a little bit more

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Speaker 1: so that we could sort of observe without characters knowing

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Speaker 1: we were. They're looking at them. And I'm always mindful that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was Greg's decision not to shoot the

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Speaker 1: series at a studio. We you know, we weren't at Universal,

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Speaker 1: we weren't, you know, and it was his choice to

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Speaker 1: you know, find this warehouse in this scrubby section of

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Speaker 1: the valley, so that even if it wasn't actual Scranton,

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Speaker 1: it was definitely not Hollywood, and it definitely felt like,

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Speaker 1: you know, where were we? Why are we coming all

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Speaker 1: the way out into this kind of bizarre area to

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Speaker 1: shoot this show in a warehouse? And you know, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like we used the surroundings very often, but I

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Speaker 1: think Greg really wanted to give us an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: not feel like we were in a show. Right. We're

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Speaker 1: definitely gonna talk a little bit more about that, but

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Speaker 1: um so you and Greg met and was there any

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Speaker 1: discussion at that time about making the American version. Let's

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Speaker 1: just call it that the American version versus where there

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Speaker 1: are things that you wanted immediately to do differently before

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Speaker 1: we started work on the pilot. As I recalled, there

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Speaker 1: was a British show and I'm blanking out on the

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Speaker 1: name of it. It was a comedy. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of like a romantic slash sex comedy show. God, I

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Speaker 1: can't remember the name of it, but anyways, it was

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Speaker 1: a show that either NBC or some other network tried

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Speaker 1: to do a U S version of and it didn't work,

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Greg and I definitely

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Speaker 1: discussed was the need to maintain the kind of the

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Speaker 1: unorthodox approach of the UK show, not exactly mimicking the

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Speaker 1: tone of it, but for me as a director visually

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Speaker 1: sort of trying to maintain the style that what's the

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Speaker 1: right way to put it where where it feels like

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Speaker 1: we were catching the action by accident that things were

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Speaker 1: not being staged for the camera, and I mean everyone,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, there are a lot of people

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Speaker 1: were saying, well, this is going to fail because no

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Speaker 1: network will allow you to do what they did in

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Speaker 1: the UK version. But in fact, I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: Greg leading the charge, and certain people at NBC understanding

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Speaker 1: that it wouldn't work unless it it wouldn't work if

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Speaker 1: it traveled down the middle of the road, or it

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Speaker 1: had to at least aspire to the same kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, offbeat quality that the original at or else

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Speaker 1: it just wouldn't play, and so on on every level

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Speaker 1: that affected every decision. I mean, I can go through

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Speaker 1: any number of things, including the decision to do screen

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Speaker 1: tests and improvisation instead of the traditional, you know, approach

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Speaker 1: of bringing the finalists for a role in front of

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Speaker 1: a bunch of really humorist network executives, right right, And

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Speaker 1: so I mean in place of that, we we shot

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Speaker 1: a lot of screen tests with different combinations of actors,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like that made all the difference in

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Speaker 1: the world in terms of I don't know, it just

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Speaker 1: it changed the whole tenor of how the cast played

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Speaker 1: the scenes that we weren't trying to sell them. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't joking. We weren't selling jokes. It was it was.

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Speaker 1: One of the hallmarks of the show, obviously, is the

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Speaker 1: kind of very understated, often kind of mute quality that

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Speaker 1: you know, like character is who have nothing to say,

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Speaker 1: We're just sort of start there with us. And I

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Speaker 1: think that was that's not the kind of thing you're

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Speaker 1: going to communicate well in a traditional network executive audition,

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Speaker 1: Like in a network test. It's like theater in a

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Speaker 1: huge room with no camera there. And I think Jenna

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Speaker 1: and Rain both talked about you brought the camera in

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Speaker 1: and asked the actors to also behave as though the

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Speaker 1: camera were character. And I think that, you know, every

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Speaker 1: actor sort of developed his or her own relationship with

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Speaker 1: the camera, and some people were more eager to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: the camera, Like, you know, John's character, I think pretty quickly,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of makes a friend of the camera, Jenna.

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Speaker 1: I think there's moments where it feels like Jenna wants

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Speaker 1: to crawl under the reception desk, right, And so I

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Speaker 1: think everybody had their own specific relationship to the camera,

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Speaker 1: and that's something we started to uh explore in the

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Speaker 1: in the screen test period. So that was one choice

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Speaker 1: or one thing that Greg insisted on. And all credit

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Speaker 1: to Greg for insisting that we not go the traditional

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Speaker 1: route in terms of bringing actors to a network for

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Speaker 1: the auditions. Do you remember was there any pushback about that? No,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember any crush back about it, because again,

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Speaker 1: I feel like the people at NBC at that moment

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Speaker 1: sort of I don't want to say they indulged Greg

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Speaker 1: or indulged us, but I think they just knew on

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Speaker 1: some level they had to let us do this in

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Speaker 1: a different way. The UK show was so beloved, partly

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Speaker 1: because of its tone, partly because of its very unusual

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Speaker 1: visual style, and I think they knew to like kind

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Speaker 1: of get out of the way at least in certain ways.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can say that one of the other

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Speaker 1: things we did during the pilot shoot itself was we

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Speaker 1: started each day with, you know, shooting basically documentary footage

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Speaker 1: of the whole cast, the entire ensemble, just at their desks,

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Speaker 1: and both Greg and I kind of borrowed Ricky Gervais

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Speaker 1: and Stephen Merchants phrase general views. We didn't call them

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Speaker 1: establishing shots right then. We keep calling them b roles,

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Speaker 1: but general but that was that was I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's a general term in Great Britain for an

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Speaker 1: establishing shot or something, but Ricky said, oh, we would

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Speaker 1: just do general views. And so each morning during the

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Speaker 1: pilot shoot we started the day with quote general views

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Speaker 1: of people at work. And what was great about it

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Speaker 1: was there was no story going on. It was just

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Speaker 1: everyone at their desks, you know, you and Angela and

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Speaker 1: Oscar sort of you know, doing accounting work. We would

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Speaker 1: take shots of things that were just by definition like

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Speaker 1: so mundane like and some of them I think got

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Speaker 1: into the credit role at the beginning the title sequence,

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Speaker 1: like I think rain like sticking the things into the

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Speaker 1: paper shredder and things like that, shredding me doing the

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Speaker 1: absolutely yeah, adding machine, the adding machine. Those were things

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Speaker 1: I think that came out of the general views. Definitely.

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Speaker 1: I think Eve adjusting his little trophy on his desk

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Speaker 1: was one of the general views. And what I do

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Speaker 1: remember you asked about network pushback was I remember getting

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Speaker 1: a comment from some executive not understanding why. For example,

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Speaker 1: they were like lunge like lengthy shots of like the

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Speaker 1: water cooler, or you know, why is there a lengthy

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Speaker 1: shot of rain sharpening pencils? What is the purpose of this?

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't exactly paying you for this, So I

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Speaker 1: wasn't pushedback, but it was definitely like what are you

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Speaker 1: guys doing? And then and and by the way, you

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Speaker 1: can shoot a lot of footage and a half hour,

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Speaker 1: and we usually spent about a half hour before we

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Speaker 1: kind of slid into a scene. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I discovered in this process is that the

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Speaker 1: cast during the i'll call it the g V section

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Speaker 1: of each of our days, they knew they were being observed,

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Speaker 1: They knew they were the subject of a document entry,

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Speaker 1: and that when we then moved into a scene, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like we now went into show mode, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like we we we were still in a

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Speaker 1: kind of documentary mode. And so I think the general

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Speaker 1: views created it kind of lived in reality. It feels

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Speaker 1: like they've been there working there for years. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating. I think it did something else as well,

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious if this was an unwitting benefit or

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Speaker 1: if there was some thought to this. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: had every actor essentially there from four thirty or five

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Speaker 1: am or whatever time it was, to be ready by

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Speaker 1: seven or seven thirty in the morning. We didn't do

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Speaker 1: the general views when it was convenient during the day

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Speaker 1: when everyone was there. It was about bringing everybody in

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Speaker 1: and I think that that is what started building the ensemble.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's funny because I one of the things, um,

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Speaker 1: one of the advantages we had is that the pilot

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Speaker 1: takes plays by and large in the bullpen, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like there were scenes in the parking lot or

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Speaker 1: anywhere else and the bullpen, except for the hr section

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Speaker 1: of the office, the bullpen requires everyone to be there,

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Speaker 1: and in theory, each the actors are not entirely clear

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Speaker 1: when the camera's going to find them. So when we

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Speaker 1: did the general views, yeah, I mean, it definitely created

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Speaker 1: a sense of ensemble. And I would also say that

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Speaker 1: it felt like whatever else you might think of that pilot,

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Speaker 1: and I love the pilot. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: really strikes me when I look at it now, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel like oh new show. It feels like we were,

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Speaker 1: we've we've we've wandered into a place that's, you know,

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Speaker 1: going about its dreary way the same way it has

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Speaker 1: been for the past couple of years or more. So

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Speaker 1: I think it kind of helped, uh people just sort

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Speaker 1: of start to create a little sense of what their

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Speaker 1: normal days like. There was also something we did that

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Speaker 1: it was kind of impractical to continue doing this over time.

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Speaker 1: But during the pilot shoot, with the exception of Peter

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Speaker 1: Smokeler who was shooting Greg and myself and maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: the boom operator I'm not even sure, probably, but no

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Speaker 1: one else actually was allowed on the set, including hair

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Speaker 1: and makeup, and as I recall, we kind of gave

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Speaker 1: everyone a little compact. And obviously this is not something

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Speaker 1: you could sustain for a long time, but that was

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Speaker 1: definitely something Greg and I spoke of to kind of

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Speaker 1: create a sense that what's the right way to put it, basically,

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Speaker 1: how do you how do we create a real space,

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Speaker 1: a real workplace. But my hope was that it just

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Speaker 1: made people feel, you know, a little bit trapped in

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Speaker 1: their workplace right well, and that is a great word

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Speaker 1: that I use all the time. Trapped. We were trapped

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Speaker 1: within the confines the walls. There were no movable walls.

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Speaker 1: We were all there together and all arriving at roughly

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Speaker 1: the same time and showing up on set at the

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Speaker 1: same time, which forced us to make relationships. I've actually

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Speaker 1: never talked with Greg about this, but I mean that

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Speaker 1: Greg's decision to embed within the ensemble writers also, I

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Speaker 1: think helped grow grew that sense of ensemble in a

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Speaker 1: way that it wouldn't have if they if the writing

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Speaker 1: staff was always at arm's length from the from the calf.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back for a second to the casting,

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Speaker 1: and um, how obvious was it to you or how

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Speaker 1: difficult were the decisions for you in casting? You know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't obvious across the board because there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of good people who came in and and so

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Speaker 1: there were like a lot of viable, you know, versions

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Speaker 1: of different characters. But I do think that, um, I

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Speaker 1: mean again, part of what was fun in the screen

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Speaker 1: tests was just sort of you know, starting to not

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Speaker 1: only see people in pairs, but starting to see a

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Speaker 1: whole picture of a group of people. I mean that.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, when you talk about ensemble, one

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Speaker 1: of the things I was so happy about with the

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Speaker 1: pilot is even if some characters aren't don't have speaking parts,

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Speaker 1: they are they're they're very present. And I remember that,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that Greg insisted on,

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Speaker 1: you know, as as with any half hour comedy, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the pilot shoot, the network sends down

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Speaker 1: a photographer to do, like, you know, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: glossy shots of the actors looking cute and jumping up

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Speaker 1: and down and all that, and we were so determed.

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Speaker 1: That was you know, we pushed back, I shouldn't say we.

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Speaker 1: Greg pushed back and insisted that we not do anything

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Speaker 1: traditional like that, anything that would scream comedy. So that

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Speaker 1: what we did instead was the our Christmas card photo.

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Speaker 1: So we got the group together for a kind of

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Speaker 1: candid dunder Mifflin, you know, Xmas card photo, and that

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Speaker 1: was our marketing photo. That was it. There were and

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Speaker 1: if you go to if you like, if you were

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Speaker 1: to go to NBC at that time and walk down

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Speaker 1: the halls, you know, you'd see giant glossy shots of

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Speaker 1: each of the comedy stars, not the ensemble. And that

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Speaker 1: was the other part of it. It wasn't Steve standing.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I think there was actually a discussion

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Speaker 1: on the set about, you know, let's put Steve in

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Speaker 1: the foreground of the shot of the group for the

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Speaker 1: Christmas card. And I think Steve or Greg, or you know,

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Speaker 1: both of them said absolutely not, he's he's in the group,

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Speaker 1: and that boy, that really sent the right signal. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean the work that you all did to create

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Speaker 1: that ensemble early on, and of course, you know, as

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Speaker 1: you know, really no one was famous that you know,

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Speaker 1: Steve had done the Bruce Almighty movie and he was

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Speaker 1: on The Daily Show before the Daily Show was cool.

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Speaker 1: And you know Rain had done the one arc on

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Speaker 1: six ft Under and that was pretty much it. Why

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Speaker 1: was that so important for you? Well, I again, I

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Speaker 1: will defer to Greg because it was Greg's decision, and

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Speaker 1: Greg was the one who, no doubt made the argument

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Speaker 1: to the network that it's best not to have known

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Speaker 1: faces in the show. I mean, I think the again,

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Speaker 1: everything has to do with creating this kind of Barris

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Speaker 1: similitude that this is a show, this is not a show.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's part of a documentary about a group

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Speaker 1: of people who work in a paper company, so you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know them. There's no need, there's no reason you'd

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Speaker 1: see a star in a in a workplace like that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, in terms of the

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Speaker 1: wardrobe choices, the makeup and hair choices, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything was sort of designed to make it

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Speaker 1: feel like these are people who don't belong on television,

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Speaker 1: let alone on a primetime half hour comedy. And Steve,

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Speaker 1: you know though, I felt that one of the things

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Speaker 1: Steve did so well is that he's the one character

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Speaker 1: who's who's so excited about a documentary crew being there

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Speaker 1: because Michael Scott fancies himself a superstar. But weirdly enough,

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Speaker 1: even Steve, I think, somehow both played to the camera,

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Speaker 1: but also it was himself the subject of a documentary too.

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Speaker 1: He somehow, and it's it's one of the things I

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Speaker 1: just marvel at. You know, Michael Scott is grandstanding and

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Speaker 1: you know, making jokes, and he's playing to the camera,

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Speaker 1: but the character doesn't quite realize it, but we're observing him.

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Speaker 1: He's he's under the microscope and Steve somehow kind of

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Speaker 1: found that weird duality. Tell me about what's true and

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Speaker 1: what's what's lore or fairy tale. How did Phillis get

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Speaker 1: cast in the show? I well, I will tell you

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Speaker 1: what happened. So, um, we were doing, uh probably know,

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Speaker 1: kind of more traditional auditions, and in the room Greg, myself,

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Speaker 1: Phyllis Allison, and the setup was is that I sat

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Speaker 1: next to a video camera and on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the video camera Phillis was sitting and Phillis was

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Speaker 1: reading off and Phyllis was her casting associate. And I

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Speaker 1: hadn't met Phyllis. All I knew is I was sitting

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Speaker 1: next to her, and there was a camera between us

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Speaker 1: and the actors who were auditioning were some of them

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Speaker 1: were kind of playing it to the hilt and kind

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Speaker 1: of working a little too hard. Phillis, meanwhile, was reading

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Speaker 1: her lines in in this very kind of monotonal way,

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Speaker 1: sometimes not even looking up at the actors, just looking

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Speaker 1: down at the sheet of paper. And I just became

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Speaker 1: fascinated with her and started looking at her. And there

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Speaker 1: was a couple of actors whose auditions I kind of

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Speaker 1: missed because I kept throwing Phyllis these glances and I finally,

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Speaker 1: during a break, I took Greg aside and I said,

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Speaker 1: this woman really belongs in a paper company. And so

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Speaker 1: we Greg thought about it and he said sure. And

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Speaker 1: now there's a there is there is one additional detail

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Speaker 1: that's so wonderful, and that is that after Greg said sure,

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Speaker 1: let's ask her to be in the bullpen and she

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Speaker 1: agreed to do it. That Greg and I had a

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Speaker 1: discussion and Greg said, do you know if she can act?

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Speaker 1: And I took Phillis aside and I said, do you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of acting experience? And she said not

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Speaker 1: not really. But she said that some years earlier that

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Speaker 1: she had, you know, worked in burlesque in Branson, Missouri.

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Speaker 1: And I said stop it. And she then later that

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Speaker 1: week brought in a photo of herself into like a

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Speaker 1: very you know, wonderfully old fashioned burlescout. It was on

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Speaker 1: her desk for ten years and the So that is

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Speaker 1: the Phillis story and and I couldn't be happier that

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Speaker 1: she became such a beloved member of the ensemble. I

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Speaker 1: feel also responsible for Creed and I and I so

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Speaker 1: tell the Creed story. How did you know Creed? When

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Speaker 1: I was on the Bernie Max Show. Creed was a

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Speaker 1: stand in, and I remember one day that's Creed and

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Speaker 1: another stand in. We're just having a conversation while we

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Speaker 1: were lighting, and I was wandering around, and I kept

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Speaker 1: eavesdropping on little bits of the conversation, and at one

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Speaker 1: point I heard Creed say something like, oh yeah, And

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Speaker 1: then Hendricks taught me this lick that one night, and

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Speaker 1: I walked away and I thought, what the what the

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Speaker 1: heck is he talking about? And then I turned back

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Speaker 1: over my shoulder and he was doing some air guitar

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Speaker 1: for this fellow stand in, and I thought, what's going

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Speaker 1: on here? So I went up to him and I

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Speaker 1: introduced myself and he introduced himself as Creed Bratton, formerly

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Speaker 1: of the Grassroots that you know, ninth sixties pop band

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Speaker 1: that in the mid sixties actually opened for people like

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Speaker 1: Janis Joplin and the Doors. They were, you know, a

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Speaker 1: Bay Area band, but Creed was in this band during

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Speaker 1: its earliest incarnation and and literally hung out at you know,

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Speaker 1: the Whiskey a go go with the likes of Janis Joplin.

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Speaker 1: So we became pals on the Bernie mac Show, and

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Speaker 1: then I went off to do other things and lost

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Speaker 1: touch with them for quite a while, actually not quite

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Speaker 1: a while, but a while. And then I heard through

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Speaker 1: a mutual friend that he was looking for work, and

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Speaker 1: he heard that I was directing the pilot of the

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Speaker 1: office and did they need stand ins? And so I

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Speaker 1: contacted Creed and I said, you know, the truth is,

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Speaker 1: the style of the show is that we're making a

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Speaker 1: mock documentary and trying to do a minimal amount of lighting. Therefore,

430
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: there's not really a need for standings. But there are

431
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: a couple of empty desks in the back of the bulletpen.

432
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: And again there's no guarantee of anything. But if you

433
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: want to, just you know, be an extra in the

434
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: background of this paper company for a week, you know,

435
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: or whatever. How how long was the pilot seven shooting days? Maybe? Um,

436
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, you're welcome to take a seat at this desk.

437
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: And he did and and stayed, Yes, he stayed. And

438
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: poor Devon, poor poor Devon. Um. But one more thing

439
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: about sort of before we leave this really early time

440
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: that um, the idea that you and Greg cast regular

441
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: looking people in terms of making the show really accessible

442
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: to people. You know, the conventional wisdom is we want

443
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: beautiful people that people want to look at, but but

444
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: really choosing real people taking place in a real place. Um,

445
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: how that really made people fall in love with the people?

446
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like, again, this was part of

447
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that we lived up to the

448
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: standards of the UK original, because certainly that's the case

449
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: in the UK original people are not glamorous who work

450
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: at Warnham Hogg. But I also think it's a tribute

451
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: to Alison Jones. I mean, she's so exceptional and and

452
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: one of her gifts is finding people who look real,

453
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: who do not look glamorous, who nevertheless kind of draw

454
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: you in, who are so compelling. I mean, I think

455
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: that again. My the way I always put it is,

456
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: if you tuned into the Office during its first season,

457
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: you'd say, none of these people belong on television, right, Yes,

458
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: and weirdly, for like Rain, that's still true. He does

459
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: not belong on television at all. Um, did you bring

460
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: any other of the staff or crew members with you

461
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: when you came and joined the pilot? Did you know

462
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: Peter Smokeler or well, Peter Smokeler and I had. I

463
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: did not hire Peter, but I was excited when I

464
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: heard he was shooting the pilot because Peter was the

465
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: DP of the Larry Sanders Show, Gary Shandlings Show, and

466
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: of course Peter has important mockumentary credentials having shot this

467
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: is spinal tap. And in fact, Peter and I actually

468
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to say budded heads about documentary style,

469
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: but we definitely had a lively debate about how to

470
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: shoot a documentary. And this is actually a really important

471
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: thing that from Peter's point of view is if you're

472
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: a documentarian, you use a whip zoom you're you know,

473
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: let's say I'm getting a medium shot of you, and

474
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: now I'm gonna zoom in really quickly and get a

475
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: tight shot of you. The intention for the documentary filmmaker

476
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: is too. Then in the cutting room, eliminate the whip.

477
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: You know, the documentary filmmaker will get rid of those pants,

478
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: so that it feels like the documentary re creates the

479
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: feeling of a traditionally covered story. And I remember saying

480
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: to Peter, well, I think, no, I think we're going

481
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: to keep those and he and the heat and I

482
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: actually disagree. He goes, well, that's not good documentary filmmaking.

483
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: I go, yeah, but I think we need to kind

484
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: of signal to the viewer, you know, that we're making

485
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: this documentary. And I tried to justify it. I said, well,

486
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's not the finished documentary, Like I was

487
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: trying to rationalize it. But I mean, he's right, if

488
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: you look at you know great And by the way,

489
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: Greg and I also talked about cinema verite documentaries. We

490
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: talked about the Mazel Brothers, about great films like Salesmen

491
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: or Great Gardens, and those films generally, yes, the the

492
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: the erratic camera moves to get from angle to angle

493
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: are eliminated so that you were more quote involved with

494
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: the story. But anyway, so I did not I wasn't

495
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: part of the decision to invite Peter, but I was

496
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: thrilled that he was on board. How did you feel

497
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: when you when you saw the final version? Were you

498
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: proud of it? The pilot? Oh, well, here's what actually happened.

499
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: I worked on the cut of the pilot, and I

500
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: worked on it with Greg for a little while. Then

501
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: I left and I went off to work on a film.

502
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: And by the way, while I was working on the film,

503
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: there was a lot of discussion about whether this show

504
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: would make the cut and get on the air. And

505
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: so I was on the phone with Greg occasionally and

506
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: and he was not always very optimistic. But in the meantime,

507
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: in the interim, I did see, you know, his final

508
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 1: cut of the pilot, and I just loved it. And

509
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: I loved again one of the things I'm so happy

510
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: with how he cut the pilot, as he preserved, he

511
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: didn't cut it for tempo. Rather, let me put it

512
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: more specifically, it wasn't up tempo. It had weird slack

513
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: pauses where we're on any other television show, you would

514
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: either have the sound of an audience laughing, you'd have

515
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, three jokes where in that space or and

516
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: this is so significant, or you would hear music, you know,

517
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: nine seasons of the Office and other than that, you know,

518
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: opening title song that that is the driest show on

519
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: broadcast networked out. You know, there's nothing, there's no music, right,

520
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: and it really that is a significant part of the

521
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: what distinguishes the Showy. So Diversity Day, we get the order,

522
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: you come back and you're directing Diversity Day. Now, was

523
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: there any thought once we were now veering, you know,

524
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: if the pilot was very much like the original UK

525
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: version pilot. What was the thought about beginning to americanize

526
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: the show now that it had gotten picked up. Do

527
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: you remember any conversation about that. I don't remember any

528
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: conversation about americanizing the show when we worked on Diversity Day, because,

529
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: if anything, I felt Diversity Day was and I still

530
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: think it is one of the boldest episodes me too.

531
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: And you know, there was a lot of people at

532
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: the time who you know, would say, oh, the office, yeah,

533
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: it was kind of slow coming out of the gate

534
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and I thought, well, you're kidding

535
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: you watch episode two Diversity Day. It's like it's it's

536
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: it's as strong as we get. It's very good. And

537
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: and so I don't remember any discussion about that. I

538
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: do remember, um No, I'm trying to know. I can

539
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: think about many other things. Um were you proud of

540
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: how bold that episode was. I'm proud of that episode

541
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: for a number of reasons, one of which is um

542
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: In the script it said that, you know, Michael Scott's

543
00:32:53,600 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, diversity training seminar took place in the conference room,

544
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: as did Mr Brown's seminar, and I remember there was

545
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about whether or not we should

546
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: move the seminar out into the bullpen, because otherwise the

547
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: whole episode was going to be stuck in the conference room.

548
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: And there was and it was like, oh my god,

549
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: it's our second show. We're trying to prove to the

550
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: network that this is a viable show, and and and

551
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: and our second episode is going to take place in

552
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: a small room. And it's like, so, I remember there

553
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: was a there wasn't pressure. I do remember talking to

554
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: Greg and a few others about was there a version

555
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: of it where like that seminar basically was spread out

556
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: into the into the into the bullpen. And I remember

557
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: just having a strong gut feeling that it would be

558
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: funnier if everyone was once again trapped in a small space.

559
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: And it made it more challenging to shoot. And again

560
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: it forced us to respect the limitations of the set.

561
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: There were no wild walls. Sometimes the cameras were in

562
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: people's faces a bit too much. There were instances where,

563
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, actors blocked one another that I thought worked

564
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: really well. So that's just a small but important staging

565
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: decision we made. I also remember Greg and I discussing

566
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: the casting of Mr Brown and at the time Larry

567
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: Wilmore was a consultant on the show. He but he

568
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: had not been on the pilot, but he was, you know,

569
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: working with us on the second season, and there were

570
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: a lot of different names being bandied about from Mr Brown.

571
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: But I do remember, and I had worked with Larry

572
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, on Bernie Maxhew. So I remember

573
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: taking Greg aside and saying, you know, I think I

574
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: think Mr Brown's sitting in an office down the hall here,

575
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: and happily Greg liked that idea, and and uh and

576
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: Larry did such a great created such a great character.

577
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: But I do I guess what I feel is that

578
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: that episode, I just felt like everyone was sort of

579
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: in top form. You know, everyone brought their a game

580
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: to that. So, you know, b J's script is remarkable.

581
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: And again I think the idea of all of us

582
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: being cooped up in that little room once again, it's

583
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: sort of contributed to that sense of ensemble. Had we

584
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: staged the you know, Michael Scott's seminar out in the bullpen,

585
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: it would have been cutaways, two people in different parts

586
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: of the space. But in the conference room, everyone was

587
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: in everyone's shot, everyone was together, right, m I something

588
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I just occurred to me or

589
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: I started thinking about if those of you you are listening,

590
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: obviously there's this. It's a stereotype. But when a scene

591
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 1: begins and the camera start rolling and the director is ready,

592
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: they say action, and Ken doesn't say this, he says, um.

593
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: It's very hard to describe, but basically oftentimes will act

594
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: as though he's about to tell you something and then

595
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: says go ahead. And I'm wondering, is that's something that

596
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: you have always done? Because that in terms of what

597
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: you were talking about earlier, having us there to do

598
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: the general views altogether and not oh, we're showing up

599
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: and now we're going to perform that the go ahead

600
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: isn't now start acting. I just wanted to hear your take.

601
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: Is that something you've always done or it's not something

602
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: I've always done. I can tell you exactly when I

603
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: started doing it. I directed the pilot episode of The

604
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: Larry Sanders Show, and when Gary and I were prepping

605
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: the pilot, he, I mean, he very much wanted, you know,

606
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: a sense of verisimilitude about the you know, the talk

607
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: show world and and although that show is not a

608
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: mock documentary, you know, it definitely has a kind of

609
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: well observed quality, and he wanted He came up to

610
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: me and he said, is there any way that you

611
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: can develop a shooting style so that the actors actually

612
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: don't know when the cameras on? And I mean, it

613
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: was kind of a brilliant idea, but I didn't know

614
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: what to do with it. This we shot the Larry

615
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: Sanders Show in sixteen millimeter, so you had to constantly

616
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: reload magazines. It was not something you could hide from

617
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: the cast. So I finally came up with the idea

618
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: that we would start each scene, you know, without the

619
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: usual announcements, without a first d D saying you know,

620
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: rolling speak like all those things, or the sound person

621
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: saying rolling. And what I said to Gary was that

622
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: will roll the cameras without letting anyone know, and I'll

623
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: just give you a signal to start. And I said,

624
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: I'll just say, like, I don't know, go ahead or

625
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: something like that. And what often happened with Gary was

626
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: I'd say go ahead, and let's say it was a scene,

627
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, in in Larry Sanders office with a number

628
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: of people. Gary would take the signal, but then he

629
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: would just sort of like chat with the cast for

630
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: a while, and then it's some you know, arbitrary point

631
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: just launched into the scene, so that there was this

632
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: sense that the line between acting and not acting kind

633
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: of got very blurry. And after working on that show

634
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: with Gary, I stopped using the word action. And I

635
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: feel like, um actors find that it does sort of

636
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: take a little bit of the onus off of act

637
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: The acting part is it's like there's real life and

638
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: then there's the scene. And so if you can erase

639
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: the line between real life and the scene, that might help.

640
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: And and and sometimes I mean, I I mean, this is

641
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: just something I've also done is occasionally actually interrupted take

642
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: without cutting, so that even I'm I'm like now just

643
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Speaker 1: having a like we're in a scene and I just

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Speaker 1: start talking to you and I said, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: go back to such and stuff. So that again, it

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Speaker 1: just sort of keeps the atmosphere less about you know, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, scene acting, you know. So that's brilliant. Alright, guys,

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Speaker 1: every word out of Kent's mouth is so fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: But I'm gonna I'm gonna interrupt the scene. But you

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Speaker 1: will get to hear much more from Ken in a

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Speaker 1: later episode, including lots more about his work on the

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Speaker 1: Office in later season. Until then, tune in next week

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Speaker 1: for my conversation with the brilliant I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: this casting director Allison Jones, and of course lots more

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Speaker 1: of the cast and crew after that. Thank you all

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Speaker 1: for listening, and UH have a wonderful week. The Office

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Speaker 1: Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,

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Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer, lay Lee. Our senior producer is

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Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our

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00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the

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00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak,

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Speaker 1: performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode

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Speaker 1: was mixed by seth Olandski.