1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Wednesday. I am coming to you from Detroit, Michigan, 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: where I spent part of my Tuesday afternoon participating in 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: a local news summit where the local folks here believe 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: it is a crisis when it comes to the problem 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: with local news. You've heard me talk about this quite 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: a bit, so wherever I can help evangelize about the issue, 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I believe that the ultimate problem and trust in media 8 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: began with the gutting of local news. And we're not 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: going to fix the reputation of national media. We're not 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: going to be able to fix any of that until 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: until we fix the foundations of journalism in this country, 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: and that's local news. And what was great about this 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: conversation you had people from the Detroit Free Press, Michigan 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: Public Radio participated, the Graham Media Company, the parent company 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: of one of the larger affiliates here, WDIV, the NBC affiliates. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: I was very folks I was pretty close with, and 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: it is what's fascinating is that this is local news. 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Organizations don't compete against each other anymore. They're all trying 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: to figure out how they can help each other. They 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: have their unique audiences. Can they help each other, and 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: I think there is this you know, it's what is 22 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: the best way to try to fix this right? Is it? 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: Is it trying to figure out ways to subsidize local news, 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: Is it try to figure out philanthropists, or is it 25 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: try to find a new business model. How do you 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: build audiences? How do you add audiences? I was very 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: happy to hear a couple of the news organizations, particularly 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the woman who runs the Grand Media companies, talk about 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: the importance of local sports and how it's really helped 30 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: first of all, people do care about local sports in 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: their community because there's always been this question is there 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: demand for local news. I think this idea that there's 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: not demand for local news is bull hockey. There has 34 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: always been demand for more local What does social media 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: teach us We're all a bit narcissistic, and we've all 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: decided what's happening around us is so important we need 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: to share it. That's local news. So local news publishers 38 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: need to lean into that. We had good conversations about 39 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: leaning into service journalism, where you know, one of the 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: big problems for a generation of journalists is that is 41 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: my friend Richard Gingris, who worked on the Google News 42 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: initiative for years and years and years. Once wrote he said, 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: the worst thing that happen to journalism was that the 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: movie All the President's Men, because it turned a generation, 45 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: two generations of journalists into thinking that journalism is about 46 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: getting somebody, getting somebody, throwing somebody in jail, bringing down 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: a government, when really ninety percent of journalists journalism at 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: its best is in service to the local community. And 49 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: when national media lost its local character references, that's when 50 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: we lost trust. We never really had trust with with 51 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: anybody but our local peers, if you will. They had 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: the trust with the local community when they reported, when 53 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: they were confirming what we were saying nationally. That's how 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: trust was built. And it was a system that worked 55 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: until it didn't. And the question is how do you 56 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: bring community back? Can things like youth sports and high 57 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: school sports? Can that be the great depolarizer? Right? Everything 58 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: about media these days people view it either through a 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: red lens or a blue lens. Community is not red 60 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: and blue community is a bit more blended. And if 61 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: you get back to the roots of covering a community, 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: helping people live their lives without touching some of the 63 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: cultural sort of third and fourth rails, just simply letting 64 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: people know where to find cheaper groceries, what events are 65 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: happening in their community. Is there an easier way to 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: watch their kid player? Is there a better way to 67 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: watch their kid play lacrosse? Are you going to honor 68 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: long the aunt that loved this community so much in 69 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: a tremendous obituary. So the point is that the audience 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: was local community leaders, both in the financial sector and 71 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: in other sector. So look, a lot of communities are 72 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: trying to deal with this issue. Local businesses would love 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: to have a trusted local media advertising. They don't like 74 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: to have to just buy Google ads and things like that. 75 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: So we were having all the right conversations. So that's 76 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: why I was here. I've been spending you know, I 77 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: share a little bit of with this, but this is 78 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: sort of how I spend half of my bandwidth is 79 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: working on this project. What can we do to repair 80 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: and scale the expansion of local news. I believe youth 81 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: sports and high school sports could be to local news 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: what classified advertising was in the twentieth century. So ultimately 83 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: that's what I evangelized when I go to these events. 84 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: So I want to let you know what was interesting 85 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: about this event. It was an array of sponsors and 86 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: including the Detroit Chamber. At the tail end, I got 87 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: a little politics in The outgoing mayor of Detroit, of course, 88 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: is running as an independent for governor. And if anybody's 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: going to get elected that's not a member of either 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: of the two major parties to a state wide office 91 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, it's likely to be Mike duggantt Now, 92 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean he's got an easy ride. He's still 93 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: got a long way to go. I think, frankly, you're 94 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: going to have three candidates in this race for Michigan 95 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: governor that are all pretty good. This isn't going to 96 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: be a case where you know, it's one of those 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: cases you're like, boy, you know, sometimes you want an 98 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: independent candidate because the two parties are just a mess. 99 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: I think in this case, you're going to have three 100 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: candidates who I think in theory are very well qualified 101 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: for the job. They're still going to be probably semi 102 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: competitive primaries on the D and the R side, but 103 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: I think Jocelyn Benson and John James are likely the 104 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: two major party nominees, and it's just going to be 105 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: a fascinating race, and I think we're going to learn 106 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: a lot about the power or lack of power that 107 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: perhaps the two major parties have if there is a 108 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: viable third choice. And so it was interesting how he 109 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: framed some of his conversation around some of the same 110 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: issues that we've talked about in journalism and one of 111 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: my one of my go to lines is there's too 112 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: many journalists in Washington and not enough everywhere else. In 113 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: some ways, that's the problem with our two political parties. 114 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: They think all the problems are to be solved in 115 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: Washington or to be fought in Washington, and they're not 116 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: really keeping their ear to the ground locally. And I 117 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: think that's that explains why I got like mom Donnie 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: did so well, because he was talking locally, and I 119 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: think that that is that is where you see some 120 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: success doesn't matter your ideology if you're perceived as to 121 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: actually listening to voters that feel like they haven't been 122 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: listened to. So it was an interesting pitch in that 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: respect too. So still still confirms to me that Dougan 124 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: is going to be one of the more unique candidates 125 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: to follow in twenty twenty six. Before I get to 126 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: the larger theme, that I have the content I created. 127 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: My substack this week is all about two weeks ago. 128 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: I previewed the last week, I previewed the where things 129 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: stand and in the sort of the very early stages 130 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: of the Democratic presidential primary, the invisible primary becoming quite visible. 131 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: Now on the Democratic side, we've had about a dozen 132 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: candidates that visited early states. Well, the so called invisible 133 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: primary in the Republican side is quite still quite invisible 134 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: because of the shadow of one Donald Trump. So I'm 135 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: going to get to that in a minute. But I 136 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: want to address a couple of topics, and that is 137 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: two stories, and I want to address it in a way. 138 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: It's sort of like, what's you know. I've always said 139 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: there's sort of two types of you know. I used 140 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: to say that I covered one set of political issues 141 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: and there was always this other set of what I'd 142 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: call the dumb polical issues, the shiny metal objects. The 143 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: two big shiny metal objects this week are Epstein and 144 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: Hunter Biden. They're in. I'm not going to sit here 145 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: and lie that they're they're not in. Yes, it's interesting, 146 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: it's fascinating watching the the Hunter Biden's weird rants. I'm 147 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: going to get to the specifics of it in a minute, 148 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: and certainly Epstein is one of those. It's like a 149 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: soap opera, right, you just said, Oh my god, what's 150 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: going to happen next? And the fact that these are 151 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: the two lead stories right in political conversation this week 152 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: rather than like the other you know, the stuff that 153 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: actually impacts data day to day lives, right, we wonder 154 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: what's happening here? And you know, unfortunately, this is where 155 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: the big tech firms and their algorithms, which basically, you know, 156 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: if you're interested in a story, suddenly it forces it 157 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: up top, you know. And while everybody has some interest 158 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: in the Epstein story, maybe has some interest in Hunter 159 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: Biden's exploted filled rants, I think the algorithms overstated. But 160 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: what happens is, you know, every news organization, whether you're 161 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: a big corporate entity or you're an independent news operator, 162 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: you feel like you have no choice but to talk 163 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: about this or your stuff's not going to get distributed. Right. 164 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: This is the dirty little secret and sort of the 165 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: problem of the broken information ecosystem. So I'm not going 166 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: to sit here and say there's not that there's the 167 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: fallout from Epstein, isn't going to matter politically. Okay, I'm 168 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: not dismissing that. I mean, my goodness, the fear that 169 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: Trump has right now, and the fear that Republican leaders 170 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: have right now of this issue, the fact that the 171 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: Speaker of the House shut down the House, send everybody 172 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: home for a month out of fear that the House 173 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: of Representatives would have a bipartisan call for more release, 174 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: more release of documents, or a bipartisan call to sup. 175 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: Keena Galaine Maxwell, you have this bizarre decision for the 176 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: president's personal attorney. It's not even clear if Todd blanche 177 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: is acting in his personal capacity as Donald Trump's lawyer 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: or in the government's capacity as the deputy Attorney General. 179 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: I think that is unclear. I think that is a 180 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: bit shady. But it gets to the whole what's happened 181 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: to the Justice Department. Whatever veil of independence still remained 182 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: is totally gone. And I know the right believes that 183 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: the left erase that, and the left believes the right 184 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: erase that. But here's the problem. Everybody now feels as 185 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: if the Justice Department has been overly politicized, and it 186 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: may not matter whatever they say about Epstein, there's going 187 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: to be a group of people that's never going to 188 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: believe it, and I think that you know, we're you know, 189 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: the interesting aspect to me of the Epstein fallout is 190 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, Donald Trump was always a 191 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: sort of cursory, you know, sort of like, oh, yeah, 192 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, you hung out with Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, 193 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, Alan Dershowitz, Prince Andrew, and you'd sit there 194 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: and say, you Bill Gates, and you know, he acquired 195 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of rich friends, usually using his plane. But 196 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: there was no evidence that Donald Trump was behaving the 197 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: way Prince Andrew behaved with these young women. There's been 198 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: no evidence about Bill Clinton, no evidence about Bill Gates. 199 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: There was some allegations against Alan Dershowitz, and he I 200 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: think successfully sued uh and and and had that pushed back. 201 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: And so I think the in the in the sort 202 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: of what I would call the mainstream world, in reality 203 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: based world, this Epstein thing felt like it's been a 204 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, spun up conspiracy by the right. And I 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: was explaining to you sort of the importance of the 206 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: pedophilia aspect to this conspiracy in that it is this 207 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: goes back to Pizzagate. This goes back to this, to 208 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: this the weird conspiracies that were launched against the Clintons 209 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: and George Soros, right, and how there was supposedly some 210 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: child sex ring and then all of a sudden Epstein 211 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: happens and it here's a here's there's enough facts in 212 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: the Epstein case that made these conspiracy theorists feel like 213 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: we're onto something. It was like in their minds, confirming 214 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: their other conspiracy, which of course it didn't, but that's 215 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: what it's sort of. That's when it sort of took 216 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: off on its own. This is the QAnon business and 217 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: all of that, right, And this is why while Trump 218 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: could shut down almost anything else, with these folks, in 219 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: some ways they're more devoted. There's a group of these 220 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: maga folks, and you got to remember how Trump built 221 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: his maga coalition. This actually is gonna dovetails a little 222 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: bit into into at some point when I want to 223 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: talk about it and where things stand in twenty twenty 224 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: eight with the Republicans. But there was always there's always 225 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: been a look. Each political parties had its conspiracy theorists 226 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: that that sort of they're they're on the fringes, but 227 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: they usually are the first people to show up to volunteer. 228 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: Maybe they become members of the state central party committees 229 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: and so they're active volunteers in the party, but they're 230 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: kind of cuckoo brains, and everybody knows they're kind of 231 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: cuckoo brains, and they've they've they've sort of lived over there. 232 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: And there was one canon in twenty twelve that sort 233 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: of united these folks pretty effectively. It was Ron Paul 234 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: And in fact, Ron Paul's people made Romney's life miserable. 235 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: After Romney secures the nomination, he actually had to try 236 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: to actually physically elect delegates, and the Paul forces were 237 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: sort of pretending to be Romney supporters in order to 238 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: become delegates. And there was the Romney campaign at the 239 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: time feared that these Paul delegates were going to cause 240 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: some problems, and then a few of them did. You know, 241 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: I think I think technically the Ron Paul folks got 242 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: the Iowa delicate. At the end of the day, they 243 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: never won Iowa, but I think they won the convention 244 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. But and you know, they made 245 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of a scene at that twenty twelve 246 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: Republican Convention. Well, Donald Trump quickly, you know, when he 247 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: first got in and he started, you know, did what 248 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: he did. One of the first constituencies he kind of 249 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: acquired was the Ron Paul world, and they were going 250 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: to be with Rand Paul, who I believe to this 251 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: day without Donald Trump, that he might have been the outsider. 252 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: He was already taking on the Bush establishment. He was 253 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: very aggressive about that. He was he was sort of 254 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: he was he was a skeptical of military interventions overseas 255 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: before it was cool on the right. And Donald Trump 256 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: comes in and basically just grabbed all of his base. 257 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: You know, they ended up There's a line. I think 258 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: it was Thomas Massey that said it first, and he said, 259 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I've learned about the 260 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: Republican primary elector at these days is they're going to 261 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: nominate whoever the craziest sob is as long as I'm 262 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: seeing as the craziest s tob I can win. And 263 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, Rand Paul was at until Donald Trump showed up, 264 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, and he was willing to say things Rand 265 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: Paul wouldn't say, and things like that. And so there's 266 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: always been two parts of the magabase. Some of it 267 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: is created by Trump and his populist working class pitches 268 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: did did sort of target a group of voters, much 269 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: more mainstream voters. It used to be democratic leaning union 270 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: members sort of you know, fed people fed up with government. 271 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: That was sort of that, but there was always this 272 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,359 Speaker 1: other piece, right, and they certainly drove the online conversation, 273 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: They drove MAGA. They're the ones that are deep in 274 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: the conspiracies, and they were the ones that were feeding 275 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: this Q and on business. And they were not Trump acolytes. 276 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: They were with Trump because they thought Trump was with them, 277 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: and so Trump not feeding them these these mythical and 278 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: magical Epstein documents that they believe are going to this 279 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, decades long pedophilia ring. Suddenly they saw Trump 280 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: not as a truth teller, as the person in government 281 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: who must know the real information, but it suddenly as 282 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: one of them. Oh is he protecting? Who's he protecting? 283 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: And here's the problem Trump's run into is that the 284 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: way Trump has spoken about this, he's acting. He's doing 285 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: the same thing he did with the Russia stuff in 286 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. While there's no hard evidence that he had 287 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: anything to do with sort of the Sea der side 288 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: and the ugly side of what Epstein was up to. 289 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: He's behaving like he's got something to hide and he's 290 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: afraid of something coming out. It's the same thing with 291 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: the Russia, you know the most you know, there was 292 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: the idea of collusion sort of got traction because of 293 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: Trump's behavior and the way he would talk about it 294 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: less in some action. Sure, in Paul Manifort in his 295 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: relationships with Russian oligarchs, we're sort of a factual connection. 296 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: And there was certainly something weird about Roger Stone's relationship 297 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: with WikiLeaks and what was going on there. And WikiLeaks 298 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: was weaponized, right it was a Russian intelligence operation. Did 299 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: WikiLeaks and Jolan Asanje know the Russian intelligence agencies were 300 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: using taking stolen material and using them as the conduit? 301 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe they didn't. It is I will accept the 302 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: premise that we don't know for sure. Maybe Julian Asane 303 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: was thinking like a journalist, maybe he was thinking like 304 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: an operative. We don't know one hundred percent on that front. 305 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: I know some people have strong feelings about this, but 306 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: it was more was Trump's behavior that led to the 307 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: suspicion and the fact that he didn't seem to mind 308 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: that he was getting out right. He was not behaving 309 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: the way Marko Rubio behaved during that time where he said, hey, 310 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: this is stolen Russian material. I'm not going to cite it. 311 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: I'm not going to use it. They're trying to They're 312 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: trying to themselves into our politics. And so this is 313 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: where Trump, you know, this is the one part of 314 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: his base that's not his. He borrowed it. The conspiracy 315 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: the conspiratists, if you will, the ones that are deeply 316 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: devoted to these conspiracies, and they were devoted the conspiracies 317 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: before Donald Trump existed, and they're still going to be devoted. 318 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: Some of them are devoted for financial reasons. You have 319 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: the grifters out there that that you know they're lying 320 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: and speculating on this stuff made them tons of money 321 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: and made them self important, So you have that aspect 322 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: of it. Then you just have the wacky true believers, 323 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: right you know, as I said, the cuckoo birds. These 324 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: are the people that show up and stuff envelopes that 325 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: you are happy if you're a candidate that they'll show 326 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: up in stuff envelopes, but you're not going to be 327 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: breaking bread with them voluntarily. And you certainly aren't inviting 328 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: them inside your house. And that's the trap that Trump 329 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: finds himself in. There's a part of me that thinks 330 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: that you know, this story likely because it's still you 331 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: know again, what the hell is he hiding at this point. 332 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: Whatever is said and done by the government with Maxwell, 333 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: I think is only going to feed more conspiracies. It 334 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: is not going to put anything to bed on this front. 335 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: It's spectacle, right, Are you not entertained? This is the 336 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: impertainment portion of the Trump era. Nine times out of 337 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 1: ten when it's an impertainment story of benefits Trump, this 338 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: is one of the few for the first time that 339 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: has not benefited him. That seems to be making him 340 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: crazy because he's throwing all sorts of crazy out there 341 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: right now, whether it's the small stuff like Coca cola. 342 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: And by the way, well, somebody at the Wall Street 343 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: Journal please do a story about the sugar industry and 344 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: all the ways the US government props it up and 345 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 1: makes it so expensive to use cane sugar. But I 346 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: digress anyway, It's just astonishing to me that nobody's done 347 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: a story about how the sugar industry is one of 348 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: the most there's a lot of agriculture products that are 349 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: subsidized for political reasons. In this country, the sugar industry 350 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: is at the tippy top. By the way, Louisiana and 351 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: Florida essentially are the two big sugar states. Speaker of 352 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: the Houses from Louisiana and the President claims to be 353 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: a Floridian. So if you wonder if this push for 354 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: Coca Cola to use cane sugar is also a financial 355 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: stimulus to some of their biggest donors in Florida and Louisiana, 356 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: I would understand why you were cynical and wanting to 357 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: believe that. By the way, the whole subsidies on the 358 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: sugar industry ties to the whole Cuba embargo fear of 359 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: Cuba flooding the market with cheap sugar. I could go on, 360 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: but the point is that was one idea that he 361 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: tried to do. The commander's situation is another. The Guardian's thing. 362 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Now he's got Barat wanting to put Barack Obama in jail. 363 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: By the way, he forgets that the immunity that he 364 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: asked for from the Supreme Court applies to all presidents, 365 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: not just him, so he actually can't do anything about it. 366 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: He can't bring charges against Barack Obama if even if 367 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: he wanted to. The Supreme Court's already made that clear 368 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: on that front. But it is it's fascinating when Obama 369 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: decides to speak out and they he had a spokesperson 370 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: put out a statement about how absurd these charges are. 371 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: And you should, as I pointed out an earlier podcast, 372 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: whenever somebody says and you won't believe what I've got 373 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: coming out next and won't release it, which is what 374 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: Tulsa Gabbert did, that's when you know they've got nothing right. 375 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: That was McCarthy. Macarthy used to always he'd meet with 376 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: reporters in the evening and he says, I've got an 377 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: explosive story come out in the morning. Wouldn't come out 378 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: in the morning. He's like, Oh, it's coming, there, it's coming. 379 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a classic sort of 380 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: propaganda trick and and and Tulsa Gabbert is is sort 381 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: of at the tip of the spear on this stuff. 382 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: And she's if you read her stuff, read what she's 383 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: putting out carefully, she's sort of manufacturing things that that 384 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: weren't being said at the time. Nobody was saying that 385 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: the Russians had infiltrated the election systems, although there was 386 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: some evidence that they tried. But there you know, so 387 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: there's there's there's definitely some sleight of hand going on here. 388 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: But the fact that he's spending so much time desperately 389 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: trying to change the subject it is it is made 390 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: you sit there and you're like, I didn't think he 391 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: had that much to you know. This is the guy 392 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: that he himself said he could shoot somebody in Fifth 393 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: Avenue and his supporters wouldn't abandon him, and he is 394 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: behaving as if he is afraid of pulling that trigger. 395 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: So uh, it's the fact that that it's rattled him 396 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: is why this story matters. But I will tell you 397 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: it does feel as if you know, it's it's this 398 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: is this is how our why it feels like our 399 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: information ecosystem is broken. The fact that the algorithms are 400 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: sort of driving this story, forcing it to be more attention, 401 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: which is what's happening there. And then of course everybody 402 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: just sort of wants to whatever's getting traffic, whatever's getting 403 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: attention is too many people in positions of authority or 404 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: leading or leaning into that because they're desperate for distribution. 405 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 1: And I understand it to a point, but this is 406 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: why why we've lost trust. Now let me move to 407 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: Hunter Biden here for a second. I will never book 408 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: on our Biden. I have no interest in what he 409 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: has to say for a couple of reasons. Number one, 410 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: he's not the candidate. He wasn't on the ballot. Anything 411 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: he says in defense of his father, I don't know 412 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: whether it's true or not, but it doesn't matter. He's 413 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: a son defending his father. My guess is he's going 414 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: to defend him to the hilt. So I just kind 415 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: of think, you know, I take every one of his 416 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: anger pieces of anger and criticism and I just sort 417 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: of chalk it up to, yeah, he's defending his dad 418 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: and he loves his dad. I have a real problem 419 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: with the folks that are booking him. If you've chosen 420 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: to book Hunter Biden, you've chosen a book spectacle you're 421 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: not interested in. And you know, the two interviews that 422 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: have gone viral, we're both designed to get attention, not 423 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: to surface new facts, not to give you a better 424 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: understanding of what may have happened. It was just let's 425 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: give him a platform to settle some scores that maybe 426 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: he wants to settle. I don't think this does Hunter 427 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: Biden any good. I don't think this does Joe Biden 428 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: any good. Certainly doesn't do the Democratic Party any good. 429 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: That's why it's surprising to see the former DNC chair 430 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: start a podcast and decide that the best way to 431 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: market it is Hunter Biden. But you know, it's a 432 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: choice who you book. I make choices. Everybody makes choices. 433 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: It's a choice who you book. If you're putting Hunter 434 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: Biden on, you know what you're doing. Look, he's got 435 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of things going on there. 436 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: I am. I don't like it when politicians use the 437 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: media or campaigns or voters for their own therapy. I 438 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: think people should use therapy when they need it. I 439 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: have in the past. It's been very helpful to many 440 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: members of my family. I'm a huge advocate of it. 441 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: But let's not do it in public. You know, try 442 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: to try to deal with your issues amongst yourself. And 443 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: this is why I was critical of, you know, ultimately, 444 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: why I was critical of Joe and Joe Biden for 445 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: running in the first place, because their family wasn't ready 446 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: for this, and I think Hunter Biden's behavior now post 447 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: election is more proof the family wasn't in a position 448 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: to hand not every This is why running for president 449 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: is not an easy decision for people. Your ego and 450 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: your end may say yes, but this can do tons 451 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: of damage that the people not on the ballot puts them, 452 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: gives them scrutiny that they never asked for, puts a 453 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: lot of things. And I think candidates themselves have to 454 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: think about this. And it's also why we're probably getting 455 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: you know, less qualified people running for office, because the 456 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: most thoughtful people about these things, the ones that worry 457 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: about their family first. Feel is if public service and 458 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: supporting your family don't go hand in hand anymore, and 459 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: that's a shame. And there was a time that the 460 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: Biden seemed like the poster child of showing that you 461 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: can do this, but that was a family in crisis internally, 462 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I I've I feel for I 463 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: feel for them to this day. I empathize. There's no 464 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: there is nothing worse than losing a child. I hope 465 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: never to experience that. I think I've shared this before. 466 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: My grandfather outlived my father, and I will tell you. 467 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: He was a he was a ghost of himself the 468 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: last six years of his life, which was the six 469 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: years that he lived longer than his son. It's it's 470 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: net and he was in his eighties. Okay, so it's 471 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what age are. You know, it is 472 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: not right to outlive your kids, and you never get 473 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: over and if you just don't, so my empathy is 474 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: well never, there's bottomless pit of it. The question is, 475 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: when you run for president, you were choosing to put 476 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: the country ahead of your family. That's just a fact 477 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: you are. That's what the president of the United States. 478 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: When you've agreed to do this, that's one of the 479 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: sacrifices you're making. If you can't make that sacrifice, don't run. 480 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: But do realize you were putting your your fan only 481 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: in harm's way. But I will tell you this shouldn't 482 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: be a story. And I do I question those that 483 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: booked Hunter Biden on this front. He's got he may 484 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of things he's trying to work through. 485 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: I'm not going to let him hijack. I wouldn't let 486 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: I'm not going to let somebody hijack my podcast for that. 487 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: And I think if you ask yourself. Why those folks 488 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: have chosen to do it spectacle and this is you know, 489 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: this doesn't help the media's reputation when all things are spectacle, 490 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: if you will, but I think I want to. I 491 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: have Daniel Silva coming up. He is of course prolific author. 492 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: He is the Gabriel Alan series. His twenty fifth book 493 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: is out called Inside Job. I have just started at myself. 494 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: I am partial to all of Daniel's Vatican based stories. 495 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: I love when the Vatican in the Catholic Church is 496 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: also part of the conversation, part of his and part 497 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: of his mysteries. Had four or five of them that 498 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: have done that. This one is another one of those. 499 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: By the way, you want to talk about the ultimate 500 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: conspiratory conspiracy. There's so many conspiracy theories right spawn out 501 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church over the years and different popes 502 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: and this or that. You want to have a not 503 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: to not to be one to promote conspiracy theories. But 504 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: but there's always there's been. You can get lost in 505 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole about John Paul the first in the 506 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: in the thirty Day Pope. There's plenty plenty of rabbit 507 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: holes you could jump down. Well, none of them uh 508 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: turned out to are are going to uh going to 509 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: produce anything, but they're if if you're if you read 510 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: them as fiction, there are a lot of fun to 511 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: dig into. So I've got Daniel Silva coming up. Before 512 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: we get that, let me give you a quick little 513 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: preview of what I wrote uh in in my substack 514 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: column this week, and it was just it was my 515 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: part too write I was previewing, I was previewing last 516 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: week where the Democrats stand, and there's no doubt right 517 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: that the that the Democrats are much further along in 518 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: the invisible primary because you know, there's no there's somebody 519 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: to run against right now. Right it's Donald Trump and 520 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: his party, so it's it's sort of easy. But if 521 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: you're a Republican trying to run right now, it's Trump's 522 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: second term, he's technically a lamed duck. And by the way, 523 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: I actually think the fact that the Epstein story has 524 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: legs is because he's a lame duck. Right There is 525 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: this sense of, you know, there are some people that 526 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: are thinking about their life after Trump. Trump's not going 527 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: to always be there, despite what Steve Bannon told me 528 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: in my new Sphere interview and he said, I promise 529 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: you I'm going to get Trump on the ballot in 530 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight. Maybe if he runs for another office 531 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: like governor or senator or congressman, he might be able 532 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: to get him in the ballot in twenty twenty eight. 533 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: But the Constitution's pretty crystal clear he's not going to 534 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: be on a national ballot for president or vice president 535 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight without a constitutional amendment. I am 536 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: ninety five percent confident in that. I leave out the 537 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: five percent because you know, how do you how are 538 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: you one hundred percent certain of anything these days? But 539 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: this is this is you know, we haven't started, and 540 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: I think that that's you know, before Donald Trump, the 541 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: Republican Party, starting from nineteen seventy six forward, really ended 542 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: up with their presidential nomination fights. It was pretty formulaic. 543 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: Whenever Republican finished second the last time there was an 544 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: open fight for the presidency, that candidate would become the 545 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: front runner for the next time and usually win the nomination. 546 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy six, Ronald Reagan was the runner 547 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: up to Gerald Ford. In nineteen eighty he became the nominee. 548 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: The runner up that year, George H. W. Bush. The 549 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: next time there was an open fight for the presidency 550 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, George H. W. Bush becomes a nominee. 551 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: Who's the runner up that year, Bob Dole. Next time 552 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: there's an open race for the Republican nomination is ninety six. 553 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: Who becomes a nominee Bob Dole, who finishes second. Well, 554 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: that year, it was kind of Lamar Alexander, kind of Pappychnan, 555 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: depending on how you wanted to do it. George W. 556 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: Bush gets the nomination two thousand and one, could argue 557 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: in some ways it was sort of fits the pattern, 558 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: even though he was the first time candidate. Obviously, being 559 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: the son of the former the last Republican president to 560 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: win an election was helpful. But who finished second in 561 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: two thousand John McCain? What happened in two thousand and eight? 562 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: John McCain becomes a nominee who finished second in two 563 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Met Romney and Mike Huckabee. You can 564 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: make an argument we're sort of the co runners up. 565 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Who became the nominee in twenty twelve Met Romney? Who 566 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: was the runner up in twenty twelve, Well, it was 567 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: Ron Paul. Some might say Rick Santorum, but by delegate 568 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: it was Ron Paul. And had there been no Donald Trump, 569 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: I really believe Ran Paul would have sort of kept 570 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: this formula alive. I was a big believer that Rand 571 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: Paul there was definitely you could feel the outsider forces 572 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: they came close to knocking off Romney in twenty twelve, 573 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: that they were going to be strong. And I didn't 574 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: take Trump seriously and I wasn't alone. I'm not going 575 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: to sit here. I didn't think the reality TV show 576 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: star was going to work. I was, you know, my 577 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: long shot to actually pull the nomination off, you know, 578 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: was ran Paul. And as I explained earlier, Ran Paul basically, 579 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: as soon as Trump got traction, Rand Paul was sort 580 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: of the first one to lose his support. Then of 581 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: course they all felt like Domino's. So that's the first 582 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: question you got to ask yourself about twenty twenty eight 583 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: is is this going to look more like is this 584 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: a primary of one? Right? Is it just all about 585 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: who Donald Trump annoints? Then of course what does that mean, right? 586 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: Is there what if somebody with the last name of 587 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: Trump chooses to run for president? And so this is 588 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think the biggest question you have is 589 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: what's the standing of Donald Trump's presidency with Republican voters 590 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: going into the fall of twenty seven. Why does that matter? 591 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: So if he has a fairly successful midterm and is 592 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,959 Speaker 1: still really popular with his base, then this is probably 593 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: going to be closer to what happened in nineteen eighty eight, right, 594 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: which was Reagan was still pretty popular. Both Bob Dole 595 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: and Jack Camp arguably were closer to being Reagan Conservatives 596 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: than H. W. Bush, But H. W. Bush was on 597 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: the ticket, he was Reagan's vice president, and Reagan was popular, 598 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: so he got the nomination. If that's where we're standing, 599 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: then I think it's you know, then you know, even 600 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: though JD. Vance, some in MAGA world don't view him 601 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: as pure Maga. There's some skepticism of him. I do 602 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: think Trump's you know, if nobody named Trump runs, I 603 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: do think he's going to make Vance work for it, 604 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: work really hard. But ultimately the power of being Donald 605 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: Trump's vice president, if Donald Trump still has this hold 606 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: over the party is going to be pretty strong. But 607 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: what if he's unpopular, What if you start to see 608 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, what if it's a disaster at the midterms. 609 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: What if the tariff policies as bad as many economic 610 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: experts believe it will be, and the economy is just 611 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, he has his own fed chair who's created stagflation, 612 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: and with this horrible economic situation, well then that could 613 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: really open things up. Right. So, for now, because I 614 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: want to cut this show, I want you to read 615 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: my whole thing on substack. Please go check it out. 616 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: It's free. I'm not going to charge people on substack. 617 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: I view Substack is an extension of my podcast conversation. 618 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm keeping my writing going. It's a it's a free 619 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: weekly column with a few other ideas in it, and 620 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: I will keep it that way. But here's how I 621 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: divide up the candidates for now. I call them the 622 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: Trump approval seekers or the Trump endorse VP hopefuls, meaning 623 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: these are folks who, even if they run, they're not 624 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: going to ever say anything negative about Trump because they 625 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: at worst they hope to. They may be running to 626 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: be the running mate to Vance, or the running mate 627 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: to Don Junior or Eric So Donald Trump Junior and 628 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: or Eric Trump both have indicated that they're not shutting 629 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: the door to ever running for president, but none of 630 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: them have said on eight is going to be their year. 631 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: But boy, if one of them decides to run, this 632 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: is where I think Trump does behave like he's running 633 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: for a third term. It's just, you know, if one 634 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: of his sons decides to run, he's I think, goes 635 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: all in and it becomes a family business, and he 636 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: sees himself and he and he almost behaves like the 637 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: candidate himself. But after those two, the others I'd put 638 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: on this list Air jd Vance, Marco Rubio, Christi, Nom 639 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: Sarah Huckaby Sanders, Vivick, Ramaswami, Rond de Santis. These are 640 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: all people who are going to run close and hug Trump. 641 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: They're not going to be very critical to Trump at all. 642 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: They're going to tell what they've done, you know, in 643 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: their states like oh Hi. In this case, Ramaswami could 644 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: be governor of Ohio, if the governor of Arkansas, the 645 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: governor of Florida, the former governor South Dakota. You know 646 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: this is you know, she she's very public in her 647 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: role at DHS, not because she thinks DHS should be public, 648 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: but because she wants to be the first person to 649 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: somehow to somehow use DHS as a launching pad for 650 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: national office. So I think that's one group. Then there's 651 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: the other group I put in here I call the 652 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: MAGA rebranders. These are people that are going to try 653 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: to run as Mega friendly but without Trump, sort of 654 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: the ones that will, you know, not be critical of Trump, 655 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: but want to go in their own direction. So think 656 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: Glenn Youngkin, think Greg Abbott, think Brian Kemp, think Josh Holly, 657 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: and this is where I put Ran Paul. These are 658 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: all going to be people who in some cases say, hey, 659 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: they were MAGA before Donald Trump. That's how all they 660 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: may kind of pitched themselves. Certainly Holly and Paul will 661 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: be pitching that way on that front. Then I think 662 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: they're going to be somebody that runs is to turn 663 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: the page republican right. Mike Pence, I think is clearly 664 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: looking certainly outlining what he a vision of what he 665 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: thinks the future of the conservative movement ought to be. 666 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: I keep an eye on the governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, 667 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: who is a conservative but sort of more in the 668 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: in the Romney wing. And then Don Bacon threw himself 669 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: into the mix to run for president. He's the retire 670 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: hiring member from Omaha, and I didn't know he had 671 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: presidential ambition, but I'm going to put him in here. 672 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: He's certainly not going to run as a mega folks. 673 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: Another group that I'm keeping an eye on is what 674 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: I call the maga celebrity lane that I would put 675 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson, Dana White, Megan Kelly in that column. I'm 676 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 1: not sitting here saying any of them have said anything 677 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: about running for president, though Carlson does seem to be 678 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: sort of self I think he thinks of highly enough 679 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: of himself that he thinks he should be mentioned as 680 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: a presidential candidate. I don't think Megan Kelly's ever ever 681 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: said anything about it, and did it with Dana White, 682 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: But I think what I would I put them up 683 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: as sort of avatars for candidates like them, somebody who's 684 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: got a conservative media following like Megan Kelly, who isn't 685 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: sort of off the deep end like Tucker Carlson. You know, 686 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: you just can't write them off. Okay, they may run 687 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: more as a way to build more influence. Maybe they're 688 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: not interested in the nomination, but they run just enough 689 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: to get attention. Dana, Why you know, I just I would. 690 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: If you're not going to rule out the rock running 691 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: for president, I wouldn't rule out the guy who's head 692 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: of UFC either, And if you're gonna tell me he's 693 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: got personal baggage, I would. I would remind you of 694 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: who the current Republican president is. Right now, you'll have 695 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: another category I put in there as the ex deems Tulca, Gabbertt, 696 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Junior both seem to be obsessed with running. Again, 697 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: I don't think any of them are gonna. I think 698 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: Tulsi probably could get more traction than Kennedy in a 699 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: in Mago world in a Republican primary, and perhaps Tulci's 700 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: running to be a running mate. Maybe I'm skeptical to 701 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: be either one of them, but I'm not skeptical that 702 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: they'd run. And then there's going to be those that 703 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: have been wanting to run for president before Donald Trump existed. 704 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, you know, I love to quote James Carvill 705 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: in this one. He one time said, you know, running 706 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: for presidents like having sex. You don't just do it once. 707 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, although he does seem to be tad more 708 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: interested in maybe keeping his ambition in the Senate, maybe 709 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: replacing John Thune one day. And then Rick Scott's been 710 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: dying to run for president, just hasn't had room, and 711 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: a lot of Floridians running for president these days has 712 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: been that's been a problem. But he's one of those 713 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: that I think running for president's a bucket list thing 714 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: for him, So I think you have to keep an 715 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: eye on him. And then there's the wild card candidates 716 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: that I haven't mentioned. You know, if any Republican wins 717 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: a blue state governorship, you automatically have to take them seriously. 718 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: So if at least Stephonic pulled off a win in 719 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: twenty six in New York or Jack Shitaarelli in New Jersey, 720 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: this cycle pulls an upset there. I think both you'd 721 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: have to take that. I'm not neither one of them 722 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: may end up winning, but if they won, you'd have 723 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: to put him in there. And you know, some egotistical 724 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: billionaire is going to run. The person I think of 725 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: first is a how lutnik. He seems to be just, 726 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: he seems to enjoy being on TV a lot, loves 727 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: selling Trump. I could see him being sort of the 728 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: Ramaswami of twenty eight, sort of runs really is a 729 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: Trump surrogate, but kind of wants to be taken seriously 730 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: so that he gets to do something else in politics 731 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: like Ramaswami sort of kind of a gadfly Canadacy in 732 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: twenty four. Now he's the mainstream likely Republican nominee for 733 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: Ohio gov in twenty six. So there you go. Ultimately, 734 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: I think you know, the question is how big will 735 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: the field get? How much do voters matter versus Trump? 736 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: Is there only one voter that matters, the guy who 737 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: watches TV and Palm Beach because I assume he watches 738 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: more TV in Palm Beach than he does in the 739 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: White House. Will that be all that matters? So it's 740 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: going to take a little while longer for the form, 741 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: although Yunkin did make a trip to Iowa a couple 742 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: of weeks ago. But ultimately it is it is likely 743 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: to be a campaign for the affection of Trump, all 744 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: depending on how popular Trump and trump Ism is come 745 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty seven. All right, So with that I've gone. 746 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: I've gone a little long here, so I don't want 747 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: to step on Daniel Silva, great friend and his wife 748 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: Jamie Gangallo is a longtime colleague of mine at NBC. 749 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of his work, and I think 750 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: you're going to enjoy this conversation and joining me now 751 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: is somebody. If you're into reading thriller books, especially ends 752 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,240 Speaker 1: with a brain, you already know who this is. Daniel 753 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 1: Silva Gabriel L. Lan It's his twenty fifth book. It's 754 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: out now, and Daniel, I was thinking about this and 755 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,919 Speaker 1: I'm going to, you know, remind people. Just show it here. 756 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: The fact that your name is now bigger than the title. 757 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: Do you remember what book in the series where your name? 758 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: And to me, that's when you know you've made it 759 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: when the author's name. I go on my own bookshelf 760 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: when the authors what's what's the bigger font, the title 761 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: or the author's name, And you know your you've made 762 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: it when the author's name is bigger than the title. 763 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's been a while, but that doesn't mean 764 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 2: that we don't put a lot of effort into trying 765 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 2: to get the right title. I know it comes out smaller, 766 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 2: and this was a title that it was in the 767 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: back of my mind all through the writing process. It 768 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 2: takes sometimes it takes a while for me to get 769 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 2: settle on a title, and I just think that this 770 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 2: one hit exactly the right note what I was trying 771 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 2: to achieve at the book. 772 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: It's interesting how let's start there then, with the titling process. 773 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: How often have you known right at the beginning of 774 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: a book what the title is going to be? And 775 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:03,919 Speaker 1: how often did you have to go write the whole 776 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: book and say, okay, you know what this is going 777 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: to be the title. 778 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 2: It's i'd say seventy five percent of the time that 779 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 2: the title that I start with doesn't actually end up 780 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 2: being the title of the book. I've had a few 781 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 2: cases where an editor or a publisher have have forced 782 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 2: a title on me that I don't care for. I've 783 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 2: had a couple of cases where they came up with 784 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 2: great titles and that I just really really loved. And 785 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 2: then you know, sometimes it's just sort of a collaborative 786 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 2: thing at the end where it takes a while to 787 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 2: to you know, you have three or four potential titles 788 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 2: for a book, and we said about you know, pash 789 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: it out. 790 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: I think the reason so many of us in the 791 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: political media and nexus are obsessed with your books is 792 00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:00,919 Speaker 1: that you're one of us. You were journalists first. You 793 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: do you do what supposedly the advice that every new 794 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: novelist is given right, what you know, right, what you see, 795 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: right about your own experiences and infuse them. And I 796 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: always feel that I have the advantage of at least 797 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, knowing you a little bit, knowing your wife 798 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: really well. And I feel like I know you better 799 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,919 Speaker 1: when I read these fictional books. Am I wrong about that? 800 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: If I gotten to know you better the more I've 801 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,919 Speaker 1: read about this? How much of yourself do you feel 802 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: like's in here? Look? 803 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 2: I think that any novelist leaves bits and pieces of 804 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 2: himself herself throughout all of their characters and throughout all 805 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 2: of their stories. And I'm obviously not an art restore. 806 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:49,240 Speaker 2: I am obviously not a former uh you know, Israeli 807 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 2: secret intelligence operative. But you know that doesn't that doesn't 808 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 2: mean that that you know, Gabriel and I don't share 809 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 2: certain characteristics, certain aspects of our life. And I just 810 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 2: think it's inevitable, you know. But I will say that, 811 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 2: you know, I don't think that always you know, write 812 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 2: what you know is essential that if you just, you know, 813 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: transport yourself engage in something that you know a bit 814 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 2: of method acted. I mean you know, did George or 815 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 2: well know nineteen eighty four. No, he locked himself in 816 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 2: a cottage and he went into another world and he 817 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 2: created his own world. 818 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 1: A frightening world you have. But I guess what, I 819 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 1: appreciate you've created your own world, and you're, in fact, 820 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: you're very careful in this book to let people know, 821 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: by the way, in my world, these two people didn't 822 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: become pope. There was no Pope Benedict, and there was 823 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: no Pope Francis. In order to in order to keep 824 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: your timeline together, but there is, you clearly allow the 825 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: real world to inform the thriller. The thrill ride we're 826 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 1: going to go on. And the reason why I enjoyed 827 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: is that it feels real and at times, you know, 828 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: you've you've you've been prescient, and I think part of 829 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: that is simply you've been a journalist. It was a 830 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: well researched you know, are you predicting things or you 831 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: just simply know where a logic, where this logically could 832 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: end up going. And then suddenly the real world matches 833 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 1: what you've written about. 834 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 2: You know, I think that when you're in you know, 835 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,439 Speaker 2: my line of work. Let's just say that I write 836 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 2: in the international intrigue genre. We're aud suspense. 837 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 1: It. 838 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 2: The worst thing that you can be is behind the curve, 839 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 2: you know, to be overtaken by events. And it sort 840 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,280 Speaker 2: of forces me every time I write a book to think, 841 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 2: you know, what is the world going to be like 842 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 2: one year from now when this book is published. And 843 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 2: it's sort of like being an intelligence officer. You know, 844 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 2: you don't want the head of your intelligence service to 845 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 2: walk into the president's office of the Prime minister's office 846 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 2: and tell them what happened today. You want him to 847 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,439 Speaker 2: tell them what's going to happen tomorrow or six months 848 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 2: from now or six years from now. And I sort 849 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 2: of have to think the same way, you know, to 850 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 2: anticipate events. And I do think that I've gotten a 851 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 2: few things right. I think I'm most proud that I 852 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 2: got Vladimir Putin and Russia right, and long before I 853 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 2: would say that most of our policy makers did. I 854 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 2: was even I'm still shocked that he actually invaded Ukraine, 855 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 2: but I did get him right, and the malign influence 856 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 2: that he has had on the West. And I mean, 857 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 2: if you go back ten twelve years ago to a 858 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 2: book called The English Girl, it was all about Russia's 859 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 2: ever undermine and I was given some information by someone 860 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 2: inside the British government that this was going on, and 861 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 2: I wrote that book. And then ten years later, you know, 862 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 2: the British Parliament released the fake famous Russia Report that's 863 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 2: basically said what I wrote in that book, that Russia 864 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 2: set out to corrode and corrupt and destroy British democracy. 865 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, they've been targeting a lot 866 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 1: of Western nations. They have been that way. I mean, 867 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: the UK report is the most complete report we've seen. 868 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 1: I think the US politics is so polarizing, I'll know 869 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 1: we're going to get a complete assessment for some time. 870 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: This may be something we have the wait years for. 871 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean we had I think the most complete 872 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,759 Speaker 2: assessment at least of the twenty sixteen episode was the 873 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 2: Intelligence report. 874 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: Correct. 875 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:23,800 Speaker 2: But we're so polarized that you know, which which aspect 876 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 2: of the US intelligence community, the broad community is going 877 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 2: to sit and write that report without without it, you know, 878 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 2: being free from the interference. You can't imagine a complete 879 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 2: report being written like that. 880 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting you said about the worst thing 881 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: in your genre is to feel like you've been overtaken 882 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 1: by actual events. And I think about you know, for you, 883 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: Israel is baseline, right, what's happening in some ways? 884 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 2: Right? 885 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: Because in some ways who Gabriel Alan is boy? A 886 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: lot has changed in from the perspective of Israel just 887 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 1: in the last arguably six months, let alone eighteen months. 888 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: How are you infusing that into this into a side job? 889 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 2: Well, I mean Gabriel Laan left Israel when he retired 890 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 2: as Director General of the Office as I call it. 891 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 2: He lives in Venice. He and his wife Kiara owned 892 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 2: the most prominent restoration company in Venice. He is an 893 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 2: art restorer. So the last you know, few books of 894 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 2: the series, you know he has he has not been, 895 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 2: you know, directly involved in Israeli security any longer. And 896 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 2: look if you if you look at go back and 897 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,400 Speaker 2: look at my the arc of the series. You know, 898 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,720 Speaker 2: the first time that I wrote a book about about 899 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,279 Speaker 2: we'll call it the Global War on tero Crism, not 900 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 2: fight against al Qaida. It was two thousand and six. Okay, 901 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 2: why okay? Well, I was in Washington that day, as 902 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 2: were you. Look out the back of the house, see 903 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,240 Speaker 2: this like Mount Saint Helens, like plume of smoke rising 904 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 2: from the Pentagon, people running up the street for people, 905 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,759 Speaker 2: you know, the towers collapsing. I didn't find it to 906 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 2: be particularly entertaining, and I don't want to write about it. 907 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:27,360 Speaker 2: I don't have any desire to write about this terrible 908 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,400 Speaker 2: war in the Middle East right now. I mean, the 909 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 2: first attack was just one of the most barbaric events 910 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 2: in recent human history. Too many innocent people have been 911 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 2: killed in the Israeli response. I just I'm going to 912 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 2: stay away from it for now. 913 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: Interesting, well, it is, and it gets me because I 914 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: guess where I was going to go with this question. 915 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: Was I feel like you stay away from US politics? 916 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,520 Speaker 1: I do? And that was, yeah, you have. I mean, 917 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,920 Speaker 1: it's not that it's but it that was. It was 918 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: that an early decision. Did you always know you were 919 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: going to sort of stay away from the United States 920 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,359 Speaker 1: as a as a main character if nothing else. 921 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 2: Well, I waded into it once. Look, I did write 922 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 2: some c I A a couple of c I A books. 923 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 2: I'm more comfortable in the international arena, I am. I 924 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 2: have had presidents and aspects of US politics within the series. 925 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: Is both Bill Clinton and w obsessed with your book? 926 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: Bill want Gabriel Alan to work for them absolutely. 927 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton has said publicly that Gabriel Alan is his 928 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,080 Speaker 2: his favorite fictitional character, fictition's character, his favorite character in literature. 929 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,560 Speaker 2: And President Bush is also a reader. President Vice President 930 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 2: Cheney is also a reader. So I have bipartisan readership 931 00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,480 Speaker 2: that I maintained by and bipartisan friendships. But we are terribly, 932 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 2: terribly polarized, you know. 933 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: No, I view your books as a relief from that, 934 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,879 Speaker 1: because you look, I think, I feel like I don't. 935 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit say I know your politics, 936 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: but I think I know. You know, we're both sort 937 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 1: of creatures of Washington, told the war and of Washington, 938 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,760 Speaker 1: and I always think about those times. Washington's a bipartisan city. 939 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: People don't always has been. People don't understand that that. 940 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,760 Speaker 1: You know, did I come from. 941 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 2: A New Deal family of lower middle class, you know, 942 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 2: raised by school teachers who are active in their union. 943 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,359 Speaker 2: And did I grew up in California? 944 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: You bet? 945 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 2: But I graduated from college in nineteen eighty three, and 946 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 2: I covered my first presidential campaign events in nineteen eighty four. 947 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 2: And what I'm saying is, you have it. Just I 948 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,799 Speaker 2: checked my personal politics I don't know about you, but 949 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,080 Speaker 2: I just found it easier not to vote when I 950 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 2: worked for CNN. 951 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,839 Speaker 1: As an old bed Bradley rule year. You know, I 952 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,919 Speaker 1: I here's why, here's how I rationalize voting. Yeah. First 953 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,680 Speaker 1: of all, I'm lucky enough to live in Virginia where 954 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: you don't have to register by party, and I think 955 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: that's an important It makes it a lot easier for journalists. 956 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think if I lived in the district 957 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,240 Speaker 1: of Columbia, I'd never get to vote because I wouldn't 958 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: register by party, and of course there'd be no offices 959 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:25,400 Speaker 1: to vote for for for for independent. But I always thought, well, 960 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: because I vote character. I've always said that that in 961 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,759 Speaker 1: some ways, I'm a believer that character is destiny. And 962 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,839 Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I have more information I you know, 963 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: so I'm going to use that information to make what 964 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: I think is the best decision. But I get I 965 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,040 Speaker 1: also get the not voting that it's in it, and 966 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,440 Speaker 1: it's certainly and I understand that debate. I don't know 967 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,400 Speaker 1: if there's a debate like that anymore in journalist rooms. 968 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's it's the times in which we 969 00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 2: find ourselves and uh, I've I've not I've been silent. 970 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,759 Speaker 1: I've I've let my feelings know in my books and 971 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,279 Speaker 1: elsewhere where I come down. Well, your books believe in 972 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,760 Speaker 1: institutions without question, and that to me is an important part. 973 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,880 Speaker 1: That's why I enjoy your books. You still believe that 974 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 1: hey structure in these institutions and democracy in general and 975 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,040 Speaker 1: Western civilization are the good guys, can I can I 976 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: let you in. 977 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,719 Speaker 2: My favorite thing to do in Washington is late at 978 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 2: night when I can't sleep, where i've got a friend 979 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 2: in town. 980 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:31,839 Speaker 1: I like to get in the car. 981 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,880 Speaker 2: I like to at midnight or one or two in 982 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 2: the morning to drive up to the Lincoln Memorial. The 983 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,480 Speaker 2: Secret Services are there, you know, the uniform guys. And 984 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,000 Speaker 2: I say, listen, I've got I've got a friend in 985 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 2: tow I say, okay, if we just go up and 986 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:49,000 Speaker 2: pay a visit, climb up the stairs, expand in that sanctuary, 987 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 2: walk down and stand on the spot where Martin Luther 988 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,359 Speaker 2: King gave that I have a dream speech. Drive up 989 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,759 Speaker 2: the mall, go to back of the Capitol and see 990 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,719 Speaker 2: that magnificent building. Is why I got so agree on 991 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 2: the day that that that that place got overrun. It 992 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,759 Speaker 2: is a temple, and I and I've been living on 993 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 2: and off in that city since, you know, right after 994 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,919 Speaker 2: I graduated from college. I love our town, I love 995 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 2: our monuments, and yes, I am an institutionalist. I made 996 00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,840 Speaker 2: Gabriel Alon a defender of the global you know, post 997 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 2: war global order. He believed in it. It's what helped 998 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 2: create Israel in the first place, and he was a 999 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 2: staunch defender of it. I would say that you know, 1000 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,399 Speaker 2: many on the on the far right, you know, which 1001 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 2: you know, they wouldn't hold with Gabriel and they're they're 1002 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 2: just as happy to see the post war order disintegrate. 1003 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,759 Speaker 1: That's what that's my it's my greatest you know, there's 1004 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,439 Speaker 1: this nihilistic, nihilistic might makes right. Yeah, And and I'm 1005 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,880 Speaker 1: worried that the left is starting to that. There's a 1006 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,799 Speaker 1: movement on the left that's sort of if you can't 1007 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: beat them, join them. They You know that with every 1008 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 1: revolution there's a populist revolution, there's almost a reactionary populist 1009 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: revolution to the revolution right. And and it's been my 1010 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,000 Speaker 1: greatest fear of what we're going to see because I 1011 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 1: don't know, as I always say, as soon as I 1012 00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 1: hear the word populism. I know they're coming for us, 1013 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,600 Speaker 1: meaning the Jews right the minute you hear it. And 1014 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 1: hasn't mattered whether it's on the far left of the 1015 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: far right, the first target are the Jews. 1016 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 2: Can we can I expound on that, but the it is, 1017 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 2: the Maga movement is marinated in anti Semitism. It's all 1018 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 2: over it. 1019 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: It's all Jine conspiracy. Look at the Jeffrey Epstein. 1020 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 2: It's all q and QAnon is an anti Semitic it 1021 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 2: it's just a rehash of the blood Libel and the 1022 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 2: protocols of the Elders of Zion all rolled into a 1023 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,320 Speaker 2: new package. 1024 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: And it's just always you know, troubles me that. 1025 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,440 Speaker 2: And you know Americans Jews aligning with Trump and this movement, 1026 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,240 Speaker 2: I don't understand why. It's just blatantly anti semitic. It's 1027 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 2: just part of the furniture. And you know, using the 1028 00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 2: cover of we're going to use anti Semitism as an 1029 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,000 Speaker 2: excuse to go in and you know, clean up America's 1030 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 2: university is wrong. 1031 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 1: That's not what's going on. 1032 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,200 Speaker 2: They're using it as a trojan horse to go over 1033 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:27,880 Speaker 2: and and take over academia. It's what happens in every revolution, 1034 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,360 Speaker 2: far right revolution that the first thing they do is 1035 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 2: they go after the intelligentsia. Guess he was, Guess who's 1036 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,040 Speaker 2: who has a lot of seats in the intelligencia, whether 1037 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:44,640 Speaker 2: it's the legal profession, academia, arts, Jewish people, yep. 1038 00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,520 Speaker 1: I will confess that I'm always at uh. Your Vatican 1039 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,120 Speaker 1: based books are the ones I like, the best I 1040 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: am and i've and it's perhaps the mystery behind the 1041 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: Catholic Church in general and a whole And obviously tell 1042 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,520 Speaker 1: me your journey that got you into that, because that's 1043 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: that I find it a rich world that I'm always 1044 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:15,000 Speaker 1: you can always pull me in into a into a novel, 1045 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: into a fiction, into a movie, into a TV show 1046 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:23,480 Speaker 1: that's drawing that in. Talk about your journey into the 1047 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 1: history and conspiracy that the Vatican gets itself wrapped up. 1048 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 2: Well, I've always just been fascinated by the Vatican in 1049 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,120 Speaker 2: the history of the Catholic Church. Of course, the you know, 1050 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 2: the scandals, the financial scandals of the nineteen eighties and 1051 00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 2: the and the shocking death of folk John Paul the first. 1052 00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,120 Speaker 1: But that's a conspiracy theory that still has never been resolved. 1053 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: By the way but I digress. 1054 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:54,200 Speaker 2: I I think that John Cornwall did a pretty good 1055 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 2: job of putting that. One doesn't mean that I didn't, 1056 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,880 Speaker 2: you know, farrow elements of it for this new book. 1057 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:10,160 Speaker 2: But but Gabriel's journey is that he he met, you know, 1058 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,680 Speaker 2: become drawn into the Vatican in the third book of 1059 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,520 Speaker 2: the series, The Confessor, and it was just such as 1060 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:21,160 Speaker 2: a very successful book. But mainly it was just a 1061 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:29,080 Speaker 2: really intriguing partnership between you know, Gabriel and this Pope, 1062 01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:33,440 Speaker 2: my fictitious Pope Paul the seventh, and more importantly, his 1063 01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:39,280 Speaker 2: very charismatic private secretary of Father Luigi di Natti, later 1064 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 2: mon Signor Luigi Donati, Archbishop Luigi did not give and 1065 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,600 Speaker 2: now he is the Supreme Pontiff, his Holiness, Pope Luigi Donati. 1066 01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 1: So I guess you know. 1067 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,840 Speaker 2: There are about four pure Vatican books, and then the Vatican. 1068 01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 2: He's used in a number of other books as well. 1069 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,920 Speaker 2: I love writing the Vatican. I love spending time with 1070 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:02,520 Speaker 2: the Vatican. 1071 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,640 Speaker 1: I how often do you go? How often do you 1072 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: refresh yourself about what's there and all this stuff? 1073 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:12,200 Speaker 2: You know, COVID interrupted my travel plans, but I've been 1074 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,760 Speaker 2: there several times I have. I have never been in 1075 01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 2: the Pope's private apartment. 1076 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,080 Speaker 1: We have an American pope. If this is ever gonna happen, 1077 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,200 Speaker 1: I hope he's a fan of Gabriel. You know, if 1078 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: he's a Chicago White Sox fan, there's a chance he's 1079 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:26,760 Speaker 1: also Daniel Silver. 1080 01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:32,160 Speaker 2: There's a you know what. An emissary of Pope Francis 1081 01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 2: reached out to me at one of my events last year. 1082 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 2: I really wanted to to h to meet with him 1083 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,240 Speaker 2: and spend some time with him. A huge admirer of his. 1084 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 2: I think that comes to in the book. And and 1085 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,480 Speaker 2: but look, I've spent time in the restoration labs where 1086 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,440 Speaker 2: Gabriel has restored paintings for the Vatican. I've shopped in 1087 01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,200 Speaker 2: the pharmacy. I've shopped in the supermarket. I've been all 1088 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 2: through the through the Vatican. I just love writing about 1089 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,400 Speaker 2: the place. And so this one, this book is sort 1090 01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,760 Speaker 2: of fired by a real financial scandal that I took 1091 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,960 Speaker 2: elements of it and turned it into a into. 1092 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:08,439 Speaker 1: An art caper and had a little bit of fun 1093 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:13,280 Speaker 1: with them. Your interest in art, you obviously have it yourself. 1094 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: Tell me about it. Was school or did just this 1095 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 1: come late in life later, no talent, but an interest. 1096 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,800 Speaker 2: I tell you, my interest began when and I was 1097 01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,600 Speaker 2: happy to be in the Bay Area the other night 1098 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:30,760 Speaker 2: when my mother took me to see there. In the 1099 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,400 Speaker 2: early nineteen seventies, there was this huge vad Go exhibition 1100 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,040 Speaker 2: that came to the United States and came to San Francisco, 1101 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,120 Speaker 2: and my mom took me to see this and I 1102 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,160 Speaker 2: got to see these paintings up close. As a young person. 1103 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 2: I was blown away by it. And that's that I 1104 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:53,280 Speaker 2: think my earliest fascination with art. And I was one 1105 01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,720 Speaker 2: of these people that sort of goes weak in the 1106 01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,440 Speaker 2: knees in front of a painting. My poor children have 1107 01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,640 Speaker 2: been dragged to every museum in the in the world. Practically, 1108 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,480 Speaker 2: they've seen every car of audio that that is viewable. 1109 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:08,920 Speaker 2: I just I'm crazy about it, and I love writing 1110 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,000 Speaker 2: about it. I love writing about the lives of artists. 1111 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,560 Speaker 2: I love writing about restoration of the art world, which 1112 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,880 Speaker 2: itself plays a huge role in this series. You know, 1113 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 2: it's just this wonderful combination of greed and frankly criminality 1114 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,120 Speaker 2: and corruption. Uh, it's it's all there. 1115 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: Look, it's a there's there's a lot of good mysteries 1116 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,000 Speaker 1: that that you know even today, that that that use 1117 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,840 Speaker 1: either art uh copies or or forgeries and stuff. As 1118 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,480 Speaker 1: part of the conversation, I assume the art world has 1119 01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,120 Speaker 1: embraced you sure absolutely. Do you feel like have you 1120 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,440 Speaker 1: learned more the more you write about it? You know? 1121 01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,520 Speaker 1: This is the part that I imagine keeps you up 1122 01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,880 Speaker 1: at night. This would be my assumption, which is, you 1123 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: want to always know the latest things that are happening 1124 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: in the art forgery world. You want to know the 1125 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: latest techniques being used at restoration. You also need to 1126 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,640 Speaker 1: know the latest techniques in spycraft, and you know the 1127 01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,080 Speaker 1: latest you know so on that on the sort of 1128 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,800 Speaker 1: the tactical part of your writing, because because I'm guessing, 1129 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:21,160 Speaker 1: if you got it wrong, people would let you know 1130 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,439 Speaker 1: you got it wrong. How do you keep up what's 1131 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,600 Speaker 1: your what's your diet of information in order to make 1132 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 1: sure you're on top of the changing spycraft and on 1133 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,360 Speaker 1: top of changing art restoration. 1134 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,520 Speaker 2: I as I like to say, I'm either writing a 1135 01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,680 Speaker 2: book or reading a book all day long. I am 1136 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,160 Speaker 2: a complete nerd. I completely and utterly devoted to my craft, 1137 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:47,960 Speaker 2: and I have I have people who help me on 1138 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:56,360 Speaker 2: I lost my my primary partner and advisor in the 1139 01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,960 Speaker 2: in the middle of writing this book, The Great Day 1140 01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,800 Speaker 2: the Bowl. He truly is was one of the world's 1141 01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,600 Speaker 2: greatest art restores and he so, you know, we look. 1142 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,840 Speaker 2: We discovered early that everyone in the art world was 1143 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,960 Speaker 2: reading my books, especially the restoration community, and so we 1144 01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,040 Speaker 2: really made sure that I never made any mistakes. And 1145 01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 2: I got I got pretty good. I'm a pretty good 1146 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,400 Speaker 2: fictitious art restorer. Now I had to can you spot 1147 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:24,960 Speaker 2: a forgery? 1148 01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: Do you think I'm so good that you yourself good? Spot one? No, 1149 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,360 Speaker 1: I'm not a I'm not a fake buster. 1150 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,520 Speaker 2: Although there's there were some old master, fake old masters 1151 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,480 Speaker 2: that that came onto the market a few years ago. 1152 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:37,920 Speaker 2: I wrote a book about it, and some of them 1153 01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:43,600 Speaker 2: looked to me to be really awful. And some some 1154 01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:48,160 Speaker 2: forgeries are that I that I have seen. They they 1155 01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:52,200 Speaker 2: really look horrible, especially when you pull them out of 1156 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,640 Speaker 2: their frame. You know, context means so much. You know, 1157 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,880 Speaker 2: you put it in a beautiful frame, you hang it 1158 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,560 Speaker 2: on a wall in a nice gallery, you light it perfectly. 1159 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 2: There's a lot of you know, showmanship that goes into 1160 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,040 Speaker 2: the to the sale of a painting. And then some 1161 01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,840 Speaker 2: if if you pull a forgery out of all that 1162 01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 2: and look at it, you know, you know, just on 1163 01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:17,080 Speaker 2: its stretcher, sometimes the flaws and the paintings show up. 1164 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,440 Speaker 2: It's like, but no, I don't you know, Gabriel is 1165 01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 2: a true fake buster. And these people do exist. You know, 1166 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,160 Speaker 2: they get a little antsy and twitchy in front of 1167 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,360 Speaker 2: a fake painting. They can see that something isn't right. 1168 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:33,400 Speaker 2: And you know, art restorers tend to be good authenticators 1169 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,880 Speaker 2: because that's how they spent there. You know, Gabriel, as 1170 01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:38,800 Speaker 2: I like the joke, has been around paintings for one 1171 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,240 Speaker 2: hundred years. He's got bino mags on. He's down there 1172 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,920 Speaker 2: in the depths of the painting, you know, with the breaststrokes. 1173 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:59,760 Speaker 1: He can tell what's reel and what is the you know, 1174 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,560 Speaker 1: take me into the debate into the art restoration world, 1175 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,720 Speaker 1: because as because I you know, some of these amazing 1176 01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,640 Speaker 1: paintings that were done in the fifteen hundreds and the 1177 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:11,080 Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds. 1178 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:12,520 Speaker 2: You should go to be you should see what they 1179 01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 2: look like without the restoration. 1180 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,520 Speaker 1: Well, and that's my point. What is the debate about 1181 01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: when does something go from restoration to completely remind repaint 1182 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,640 Speaker 1: it repay. And what is that? You know, and is 1183 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,200 Speaker 1: is that a moving line in that world? Is that 1184 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,280 Speaker 1: a moving debate? Is that something almost the way journalism 1185 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,400 Speaker 1: is going to debate the use of AI. You know, 1186 01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, let's go. 1187 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:41,160 Speaker 2: Back to let's just say it's use fifteen hundred or 1188 01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:42,120 Speaker 2: fifteen ten. 1189 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:42,640 Speaker 1: For a painting. 1190 01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:46,760 Speaker 2: So you know, within AE hundred or two hundred, one 1191 01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years or so, that painting started to get 1192 01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:57,960 Speaker 2: a little worn out, Okay, And you know, we think 1193 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,200 Speaker 2: of it now as that you know, the our tiste, 1194 01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,520 Speaker 2: you know, this person who's touched by by God and 1195 01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:10,240 Speaker 2: by fire and you know, you know, just an amazing, 1196 01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,600 Speaker 2: amazing creative force. Back then, yeah, I think that these 1197 01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:18,080 Speaker 2: are artisans and they're creating products for the marketplace. So 1198 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,640 Speaker 2: what would happen after one hundred and fifty years or 1199 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,360 Speaker 2: two hundred years that you know, later artists would simply 1200 01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:31,320 Speaker 2: repaint those paintings, touch up basically, yes, the red redder, 1201 01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:35,519 Speaker 2: things like that, and so they were and then maybe 1202 01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,920 Speaker 2: a few years after that they would be subjected to 1203 01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:45,320 Speaker 2: another barbaric restoration. And so you know, when we began 1204 01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:51,680 Speaker 2: to you know, try to separate in say the nineteenth century, 1205 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 2: you know a Titian from a workshop piece and everything. 1206 01:08:56,479 --> 01:09:00,760 Speaker 2: These paintings were in terrible shape. And so the first 1207 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,320 Speaker 2: thing that happened is when we learn how to actually 1208 01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:05,600 Speaker 2: do some real restorations. You've got to get all that 1209 01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,920 Speaker 2: stuff off of there and then and then try to, 1210 01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:14,640 Speaker 2: you know, restore it properly. We've we've learned, you know, 1211 01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,599 Speaker 2: a great deal in the last century or so. And 1212 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,919 Speaker 2: so I get my character is known for the lightness 1213 01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 2: of his touch. He tries not to over restore. He 1214 01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:27,320 Speaker 2: doesn't he doesn't really want to have a he's not 1215 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:31,040 Speaker 2: a heavy hand at restore. Some pieces are subjected to 1216 01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:35,160 Speaker 2: to too much restoration or over restoration, I would I 1217 01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 2: would submit that many pieces on the market have been 1218 01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:42,040 Speaker 2: subjected to fraudulent restorations where he takes. 1219 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,439 Speaker 1: What becomes fraudulent. What's the line on that. I would 1220 01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:47,280 Speaker 1: say that when you take. 1221 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,160 Speaker 2: Say some Dutch painting that might have been a you know, 1222 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,880 Speaker 2: a copy of a copy or or workshop piece, and 1223 01:09:56,280 --> 01:10:01,920 Speaker 2: you you get a very talented restorer who upgrades it 1224 01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:06,599 Speaker 2: a little bit, and so you know, it's a it's 1225 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,000 Speaker 2: a it's a it's a delicate line. And so I 1226 01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,200 Speaker 2: like things that that I think the painting should show 1227 01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,120 Speaker 2: its age a little bit. I don't think it should 1228 01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:19,599 Speaker 2: just be pristine and perfect. But if you could look at, 1229 01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:22,880 Speaker 2: you know, of stripped painting and from the from the 1230 01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:24,559 Speaker 2: sixteenth century, you'd be pretty shocked. 1231 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,120 Speaker 1: Have you. I take it, you've you've you've had the 1232 01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,519 Speaker 1: you've gotten to do this. You've seen a paint and 1233 01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,719 Speaker 1: get stripped back to its I guess it's a semi 1234 01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:35,160 Speaker 1: original state. It's good. 1235 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can get it all the way down, you 1236 01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,160 Speaker 2: get all of those that over paint off and and 1237 01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,759 Speaker 2: get it down to what what what went on the canvas, 1238 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,519 Speaker 2: you know, five hundred years ago, and. 1239 01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,120 Speaker 1: So it's it's. 1240 01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes that you know, the colors are very bright and 1241 01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,280 Speaker 2: vibrant when you get all that junk off. But you know, 1242 01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 2: it's there's a lot of their their losses that that's 1243 01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,360 Speaker 2: for sure. Let's go to the spycraft world. 1244 01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:02,640 Speaker 1: Okay, whether it's masad Am I six uh c I A, 1245 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, the I assume same thing. Over the years, 1246 01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:10,200 Speaker 1: you've you've probably befriended a few intelligence agents who have 1247 01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,080 Speaker 1: been able to say, hey, this is right, this is wrong, 1248 01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:16,599 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. How you know, how mature is 1249 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 1: that part of your source material these days? 1250 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,400 Speaker 2: I guess that the best way to describe that is 1251 01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:29,639 Speaker 2: is that I was ready and very early by someone 1252 01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:35,679 Speaker 2: what was going on with manipulation of cellular devices. 1253 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:37,679 Speaker 1: These things. 1254 01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:42,320 Speaker 2: And and if you go back to a a book 1255 01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:47,880 Speaker 2: called the Rembrandt Affair, we you know, I wrote a 1256 01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,880 Speaker 2: little poem about turning this thing into a into a 1257 01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,200 Speaker 2: spy in your pocket? 1258 01:11:52,439 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 3: And what what what israelis are incredible at it? We 1259 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,520 Speaker 3: are all the I mean, the beeper thing is still unbelievable. 1260 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's it was a it was 1261 01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 2: an incredible operation. I don't I don't think that my 1262 01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:13,080 Speaker 2: character would have pulled the trigger on it. 1263 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,960 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, interesting, why is that a 1264 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,360 Speaker 1: look you're you' He's got a strong moral code, which 1265 01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:24,080 Speaker 1: is another reason why I think we all are want 1266 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:26,240 Speaker 1: Gabriel l Lan on our side. We don't we don't. 1267 01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:28,760 Speaker 1: We don't know where these beepers were when they exploded. 1268 01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,599 Speaker 1: It's not like, like, you know, he would have had 1269 01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:33,280 Speaker 1: trouble with that that he wouldn't have liked it that 1270 01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,559 Speaker 1: a beeper might have harmed a child, or a beeper 1271 01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:37,920 Speaker 1: might have harmed What if the child was holding the people? 1272 01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,240 Speaker 1: What if the child was chewing on the beeper. 1273 01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 2: And so I it was a you know, incredible operation 1274 01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:52,160 Speaker 2: that you know, brilliantly conceived and executed. I don't know 1275 01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:53,439 Speaker 2: if my character would have pulled. 1276 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:57,719 Speaker 1: The trigger on them. That's interesting. Well, that's what we appreciate, 1277 01:12:57,720 --> 01:12:59,800 Speaker 1: the moral code. But how do you what's your way 1278 01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:03,200 Speaker 1: of keeping up with spycraft? Is there are there trade 1279 01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:09,320 Speaker 1: publications out there? No? I talk to people. 1280 01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:12,759 Speaker 2: Will they tell me exactly what they're doing? 1281 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:12,920 Speaker 1: No? 1282 01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:16,200 Speaker 2: Whether they give me the broad brush capability you know 1283 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:21,479 Speaker 2: what they're people are capable of. Yes, I think it's 1284 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:27,639 Speaker 2: impossible to overestimate what we can do with surveillance right now. 1285 01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: It is. 1286 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,280 Speaker 2: It is, as one person describes to me. It's truly 1287 01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,639 Speaker 2: the lives of others. You know, you get inside people's 1288 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,639 Speaker 2: computers and their devices. You believe you just own everythingste them. 1289 01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,200 Speaker 1: You know, my favorite thing about this, this mobile phone, 1290 01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,320 Speaker 1: is if the government said you had to carry around 1291 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,960 Speaker 1: a device that we could track you all day long, 1292 01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:49,400 Speaker 1: there would be a revolution. There'd been pitchforks in the streets, right, 1293 01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,320 Speaker 1: But if a T and D and Apple got together 1294 01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:54,920 Speaker 1: we hey, we could do this, and we can help 1295 01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:59,160 Speaker 1: you listen to music on demand. I mean we've suckered 1296 01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,200 Speaker 1: the entire world population into this. 1297 01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:07,000 Speaker 4: It's amazing. Actually, they know your deepest, darkest fantasies ever. 1298 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,080 Speaker 4: You know everything you want, every desire. You type it 1299 01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:13,200 Speaker 4: into the little white box that build the most incredibly 1300 01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:17,439 Speaker 4: accurate profile of you. They know where are, they know where, 1301 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,080 Speaker 4: what you think, what you desire. It's frightening, it's frightening. Yeah, 1302 01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:24,320 Speaker 4: we've just all acquiesced. 1303 01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,240 Speaker 1: We've all the more you learn as it made you 1304 01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,320 Speaker 1: think about getting off the grid or is it too late? 1305 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:34,120 Speaker 2: It's probably too late, but yeah, and look, they're professionals 1306 01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,479 Speaker 2: in this thing that don't carry these kinds of phones that. 1307 01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,200 Speaker 1: Have air gap computers. Look, there's reason bin Laden was 1308 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:46,000 Speaker 1: using human messengers and caces of paper. I mean he 1309 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:49,639 Speaker 1: realized this back in twenty ten. We had his phone number. 1310 01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,320 Speaker 2: I mean, we knew the phone he was using for 1311 01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:52,799 Speaker 2: a while. 1312 01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:58,280 Speaker 1: They're very dangerous. You spend a lot of time in Europe, 1313 01:14:58,320 --> 01:14:59,719 Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time in the Middle East. 1314 01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,519 Speaker 1: You don't know, we spend a lot of time in Asia. 1315 01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,360 Speaker 1: Do you imagine that changes with as you as you, 1316 01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:09,320 Speaker 1: as as his Well, he's been about to retire for 1317 01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,200 Speaker 1: years now, and we'll get to that in a minute. 1318 01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:13,880 Speaker 1: But I'm curious about pivoting to China. 1319 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:17,920 Speaker 2: As the boogeyman who it's not for me, not for me, 1320 01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:23,960 Speaker 2: not for Gabriel. I would say, maybe for uh a 1321 01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:27,240 Speaker 2: future novel, but not Gabriel. I do, I do want 1322 01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,639 Speaker 2: to write a story set in Japan. 1323 01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:30,400 Speaker 1: To be honest with. 1324 01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:32,840 Speaker 2: You, have you spent a lot of time in China. 1325 01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:34,120 Speaker 1: It's just I didn't. 1326 01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,160 Speaker 2: Uh No, That's the reason why I want to say 1327 01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 2: a book in Japan. I just have not had a 1328 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,559 Speaker 2: chance to travel there. And I'm dying too, and I 1329 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,719 Speaker 2: want to. I want to write a Gabriel lot in Japan. 1330 01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:50,960 Speaker 2: Oh you want to take him to Japan? Yes, oh 1331 01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:56,040 Speaker 2: they have, they have. They have a very important art 1332 01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:56,599 Speaker 2: world there. 1333 01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:04,280 Speaker 1: What is you know? The the how much how many more? 1334 01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,360 Speaker 1: How many more of these does Gabriel Alan have in him? 1335 01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:09,840 Speaker 1: And how much? I mean, are you surprised you got 1336 01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:13,280 Speaker 1: twenty five books already? Yes? 1337 01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:19,200 Speaker 2: Yes, he I guess It's important to remember that he 1338 01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:21,080 Speaker 2: was only supposed to appear in one book when I 1339 01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,400 Speaker 2: created him. He was not supposed to be a continuing character. 1340 01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:25,799 Speaker 1: So that's the first thing. Did you have to resurrect him, 1341 01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm trying to read I didn't. I didn't resurrect him. 1342 01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:32,280 Speaker 2: He did die, Okay, no, he I he was supposed 1343 01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,040 Speaker 2: to sail off into the sunset at the end of 1344 01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,600 Speaker 2: that first book. My publisher at the time convinced me 1345 01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:40,920 Speaker 2: that that I had a continuing character on my hand. 1346 01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:45,040 Speaker 2: I was resistant at first, and by the time I 1347 01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:48,880 Speaker 2: got to the book three, I realized that I did. 1348 01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,559 Speaker 2: So look what I what I've done with the character 1349 01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,439 Speaker 2: is put him where I always wanted him to be 1350 01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:58,720 Speaker 2: at the end of the story. I always wanted it 1351 01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,479 Speaker 2: to and in Venice. I always wanted him to come 1352 01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,120 Speaker 2: out in the open and get his due as the 1353 01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:09,000 Speaker 2: art restorer that he is. He's truly the greatest art 1354 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,360 Speaker 2: restorer of an Italian old master art in the world. 1355 01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:16,720 Speaker 2: And then have him I could plug him in. He's 1356 01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,360 Speaker 2: a very versatile character. I could put him in any 1357 01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:22,360 Speaker 2: kind of story that I want to, whether in this 1358 01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:25,080 Speaker 2: case it's a murder investigation that takes him to the 1359 01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:29,400 Speaker 2: Vatican art theft stories he can work with his old colleagues, 1360 01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,160 Speaker 2: and intelligence stories. I can do whatever I. 1361 01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:32,720 Speaker 1: Want with him. 1362 01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,880 Speaker 2: But the main thing that I did is, and I 1363 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:38,000 Speaker 2: don't want to talk about how old he really is, 1364 01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,760 Speaker 2: but he presents on the page as younger than he is, 1365 01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,320 Speaker 2: and so I just detached the series from the actual clock, 1366 01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:45,840 Speaker 2: you know. 1367 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,080 Speaker 1: Now interesting, so you don't feel like you've ate. You know, 1368 01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,840 Speaker 1: if I decide he's sixty two, then so be it 1369 01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:55,360 Speaker 1: as reer X. So maybe another reader says, well, I've 1370 01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:57,200 Speaker 1: been reading him twenty five years, so I'm going to 1371 01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,760 Speaker 1: do the math. This means he's probably really closer to 1372 01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:02,799 Speaker 1: seventy five. Blah blah blah, right. 1373 01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:07,760 Speaker 2: Right, doesn't matter, doesn't matter, And I'm going to write 1374 01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,679 Speaker 2: him as long as I want to and not worry 1375 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:14,840 Speaker 2: about how old the character really is. He presents nowing 1376 01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,559 Speaker 2: he's got this beautiful younger wife, he's got two young children, 1377 01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,080 Speaker 2: you know. He I'm going to write him as he 1378 01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 2: is in this moment, and I'm going to do it 1379 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,240 Speaker 2: for as long as I want to. Do Your family 1380 01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,280 Speaker 2: do your family members? Do your family members see themselves 1381 01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,840 Speaker 2: and they say, hey, do you use this for the novel? 1382 01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,640 Speaker 1: That? Of course they do, of course they do, of 1383 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:36,240 Speaker 1: course they do. 1384 01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,880 Speaker 2: And uh, I mean this this novel starts with the 1385 01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:43,679 Speaker 2: Great Gabriel on having to go to a parent teacher 1386 01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,320 Speaker 2: conference because his daughter has been misbehaving at school, trying 1387 01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:51,240 Speaker 2: to organize a rebellion at school. I have some experience 1388 01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:56,160 Speaker 2: in that realm. Put my my rebellious, stubborn daughter when 1389 01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:59,400 Speaker 2: she was young. You know, she loved that scene. She 1390 01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:00,000 Speaker 2: loved that scene. 1391 01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,000 Speaker 1: It's good that she loved it now. She wouldn't have 1392 01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,479 Speaker 1: liked it late earlier. Right, you know you know that. 1393 01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,200 Speaker 1: Let's let's talk a little bit about you. You've been 1394 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:15,600 Speaker 1: through an interesting time for the publishing industry, right in 1395 01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,000 Speaker 1: your twenty five years with Gabriel Lalan. There's been this prediction, 1396 01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:21,160 Speaker 1: so print is going to die. There's they're never going 1397 01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:24,880 Speaker 1: to print books again. Books are dying in general, or 1398 01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:28,840 Speaker 1: this is going to and instead I think there's a renaissance. Right, 1399 01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,280 Speaker 1: people realize And I know my own self, I remember 1400 01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,719 Speaker 1: something more on a on a I remember books better 1401 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:40,479 Speaker 1: that I read physically versus even if I read it 1402 01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,920 Speaker 1: on an iPad or if I listen to it. I 1403 01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:47,519 Speaker 1: just do. That's how I retain information. I'm not saying 1404 01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:51,400 Speaker 1: others are. You know too? What is what has surprised 1405 01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:53,519 Speaker 1: you about the sustaining power of print. 1406 01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:56,680 Speaker 2: I like use the phrase peak book, and it was 1407 01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:01,519 Speaker 2: peag book because we had multiple national chains. Amazon was 1408 01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:07,840 Speaker 2: just beginning, and so now we're coming to the point 1409 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,000 Speaker 2: where we've we lost our a lot of national chains. 1410 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 2: Bookstores are struggling, Barnes and Noble has had several near 1411 01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:19,720 Speaker 2: death experiences, and Amazon is obviously the dominant force in 1412 01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:25,000 Speaker 2: the market. And so it's, you know, publishing is like 1413 01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:28,920 Speaker 2: any aspect of the information economy. You know, it's it's 1414 01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:35,040 Speaker 2: under pressure right now, it's it's it's been disrupted. So 1415 01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:37,240 Speaker 2: I don't I don't know where the book industry is 1416 01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:39,439 Speaker 2: going to be honest with you. You know, I see 1417 01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:43,559 Speaker 2: these startling statistics about you know, people who who don't 1418 01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,280 Speaker 2: read books, that men have really stopped reading books, reading 1419 01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:54,920 Speaker 2: fiction in particular, that English programs, you know, in American 1420 01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,920 Speaker 2: universities and having to assigns signed their students excerpts from 1421 01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,000 Speaker 2: from the novels, the great books, because they're that's. 1422 01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:05,200 Speaker 1: Assuming the university is still going to allow people to 1423 01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:09,799 Speaker 1: major in the English, like university is getting rid of 1424 01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:15,840 Speaker 1: the classics completely that they can't that the students have 1425 01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:16,360 Speaker 1: been so. 1426 01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,280 Speaker 2: Their ability to sit and focus on a book has 1427 01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:24,840 Speaker 2: been diminished. But by the you know, the pace of 1428 01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:29,080 Speaker 2: this thing that they're they're not read entire books, so 1429 01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:30,760 Speaker 2: I don't know where the book goes. 1430 01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:32,840 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I'm. 1431 01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:34,960 Speaker 2: Glad to say that to hear that you think there's 1432 01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:37,600 Speaker 2: a renaissance going on, Well, I have found on. 1433 01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:42,400 Speaker 1: Well, well it is so okay, So you renaissance is 1434 01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,639 Speaker 1: probably strong of a word. But you know, you take uh, 1435 01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,640 Speaker 1: I know, you know the folks that now own politics 1436 01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:50,920 Speaker 1: and pros. You know, they rescued it and then they 1437 01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,559 Speaker 1: expanded it. And now now that said independent bookstores will 1438 01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:56,840 Speaker 1: tell you, I know you've learned this that you know, 1439 01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:59,439 Speaker 1: if they don't have an event every they won't have 1440 01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,679 Speaker 1: anybody by books. But if they bring an event into 1441 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:02,959 Speaker 1: their store, they get people. 1442 01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:06,240 Speaker 2: To buy books, right like, And that's me but right. 1443 01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,519 Speaker 1: You are you are a draw and you are an 1444 01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,240 Speaker 1: important draw to the independent bookstores. And I'm guessing as 1445 01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:13,959 Speaker 1: a as a prolific author, you feel almost a loyalty 1446 01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,920 Speaker 1: to these folks. And I'm sure, I'm sure you're you're 1447 01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:20,840 Speaker 1: you're you're there. I you know, I happily help any 1448 01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:22,680 Speaker 1: author with Q and A's right, type of thing. I 1449 01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:26,000 Speaker 1: love doing them. Politics are Pros has had some success, 1450 01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,680 Speaker 1: and I've talked to other independent bookstore owners around the 1451 01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:31,960 Speaker 1: country and it's sort of like the worst days were 1452 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,000 Speaker 1: sort of about mid teens, and that there is this 1453 01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,960 Speaker 1: it is it is. It's sort of like, I guess 1454 01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:43,200 Speaker 1: after everybody cleared out right, then suddenly, oh, I miss that, 1455 01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:45,880 Speaker 1: I miss the browsing of the bookstore. I miss this 1456 01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,800 Speaker 1: part of it, and that the bookstores that are that 1457 01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:52,880 Speaker 1: have figured out how to be an event, have figured 1458 01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,040 Speaker 1: out how to be part. You know, you can't just 1459 01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,160 Speaker 1: sell books. You've got to do more than that. There's 1460 01:22:58,200 --> 01:22:59,960 Speaker 1: no doubt about it, you know. And it's not just 1461 01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:01,880 Speaker 1: have a coffee shop anymore. You've got to do a 1462 01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:04,519 Speaker 1: little bit more than that. But it does seem as 1463 01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:09,320 Speaker 1: if there's more people are realizing that reading a hard 1464 01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:15,040 Speaker 1: that they actually I think they consume a piece of 1465 01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:17,920 Speaker 1: information better if they read it on a hard piece 1466 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:19,479 Speaker 1: of it, without question, without question. 1467 01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:26,320 Speaker 2: I you know, I partner with independent bookstores, but you know, 1468 01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:30,719 Speaker 2: sometimes I have to go off site. But my best 1469 01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:35,360 Speaker 2: event on this tour thus far was a book passage 1470 01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:38,439 Speaker 2: in Marine County. Courter Madera California. You got to be 1471 01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:43,040 Speaker 2: in the bookstore, swished in there with everybody, and it's 1472 01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:46,640 Speaker 2: one of these independents that it's just a destination, you know, 1473 01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:52,839 Speaker 2: a quality independent bookstore, part of the community. Hand selling 1474 01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,280 Speaker 2: books to the customers. Is that the term we use, 1475 01:23:55,400 --> 01:24:01,200 Speaker 2: you know, recommending and you know, you know, are they 1476 01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,320 Speaker 2: are they making money? Hand over fists? Oh no, it's 1477 01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:05,280 Speaker 2: small margins. 1478 01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:05,600 Speaker 1: It's all I know. 1479 01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:11,240 Speaker 2: But gosh, there's just so important. And that was something 1480 01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:15,360 Speaker 2: that I always were worried about the disappearance of the 1481 01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:16,200 Speaker 2: physical book. 1482 01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:18,320 Speaker 1: It was something that. 1483 01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:24,960 Speaker 2: To me, you know, I am the person I became 1484 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:27,960 Speaker 2: because of being able to go to a bookstore and 1485 01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,360 Speaker 2: be around books, and go to a library, be around 1486 01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:36,160 Speaker 2: the smell of those I just loved him and I 1487 01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:40,200 Speaker 2: and to do everything that I can to support these 1488 01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:41,280 Speaker 2: independent bookstores. 1489 01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:44,160 Speaker 1: Can you imagine chat GBT being able to tell you 1490 01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:48,439 Speaker 1: everything you needed to know about Hemingway all these books, Right, 1491 01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:50,680 Speaker 1: you have to read Havingway to experience having Way, and 1492 01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:53,800 Speaker 1: to understand it and to realize he was writing experience. 1493 01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:57,000 Speaker 1: He was writing novels based on his experiences and where 1494 01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,160 Speaker 1: he went and where he visited or who he met. 1495 01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, me, too, me too, So don't come around me 1496 01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:06,000 Speaker 2: when I'm creating. You'll end up in the story. 1497 01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:12,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about AI. Okay, somebody you are? You are? 1498 01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:16,559 Speaker 1: So you twenty five books on Gabriel Lalan. Somebody can 1499 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:22,479 Speaker 1: essentially write me a book with Gabriel Lalan as the 1500 01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:29,920 Speaker 1: central character. And suddenly somebody could write in your voice. Yeah, Jie, 1501 01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:32,240 Speaker 1: I mean, how scary is this? 1502 01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:35,560 Speaker 2: Jamie tried that she just has an experiment. 1503 01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:36,519 Speaker 1: Of course she did. 1504 01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:40,880 Speaker 2: Tried to get it, tried to get chat GP teacher 1505 01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:41,439 Speaker 2: right like me. 1506 01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:41,880 Speaker 1: It was. 1507 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:44,800 Speaker 2: It was awful. It was so awful that I was 1508 01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:45,760 Speaker 2: embarrassed by it. 1509 01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:46,839 Speaker 1: Were you relieved? 1510 01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:50,320 Speaker 2: Yes, No, I don't worry about it. No one can 1511 01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:53,840 Speaker 2: write like me, and no machine that can can write 1512 01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,120 Speaker 2: a book or or publish a book under my name. 1513 01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm not. 1514 01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:02,600 Speaker 2: I'm more worried about AA and automation for the societal 1515 01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:07,760 Speaker 2: disruption that's coming our way, that that the machines are 1516 01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:10,439 Speaker 2: going to be doing things, that they're going to be 1517 01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:13,120 Speaker 2: writing all the software, and they're going to be doing 1518 01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:13,919 Speaker 2: all the trading. 1519 01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:15,919 Speaker 1: They're going to they're going to have a huge impact. 1520 01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:22,840 Speaker 2: That they're writing legal briefs right now, very well, well, 1521 01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:29,680 Speaker 2: law firms are using AI I discovered to help UH 1522 01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,320 Speaker 2: do a lot of research. I guess that the Trump administration, 1523 01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:35,519 Speaker 2: that the d o J is using AI to write 1524 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,280 Speaker 2: some stuff that's that's not been laughed out of court 1525 01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:42,320 Speaker 2: a few times. But I'm worried about about the big 1526 01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:44,479 Speaker 2: changes that are coming our way in terms of work 1527 01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:45,000 Speaker 2: and AI. 1528 01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:48,639 Speaker 1: Well. I certainly think this is why we have such 1529 01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:53,439 Speaker 1: a I think we have such an unsteady political situation 1530 01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:56,760 Speaker 1: right and that there is a concern we don't know 1531 01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:58,519 Speaker 1: what the future of work is. One of my favorite 1532 01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:02,479 Speaker 1: things that I I read recently was, you know, if 1533 01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:05,080 Speaker 1: you have a five year old today, you're not sure 1534 01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:07,479 Speaker 1: that the skills you can pass on to your five 1535 01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:11,160 Speaker 1: year old are going to matter in fifteen years. When 1536 01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:13,720 Speaker 1: your kids were five, you were pretty confident that the 1537 01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,439 Speaker 1: basic life skills you could pass on we're still going 1538 01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:19,680 Speaker 1: to be relevant to your five year old when they 1539 01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:22,320 Speaker 1: were twenty five. I don't know if that's the case 1540 01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,760 Speaker 1: right now. That's scary, right that you're like, oh my god, 1541 01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:30,040 Speaker 1: things are changing so fast. I can't help my kids 1542 01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:33,719 Speaker 1: navigate this world beyond the next five years. 1543 01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:38,360 Speaker 2: Well, they were told to become software engineers a few 1544 01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:41,639 Speaker 2: years ago, and now those jobs are starting to coding. 1545 01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:43,360 Speaker 1: Now that's going that's going to be automated. 1546 01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:52,880 Speaker 2: Call financial services also, you know there's challenges in that 1547 01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:58,240 Speaker 2: industry right now. I guess the best advice is to 1548 01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,280 Speaker 2: try to get the best education you can and be 1549 01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:06,479 Speaker 2: versatile in this in this work. I feel very blessed 1550 01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,320 Speaker 2: to have had the career that I've had. I got 1551 01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:12,880 Speaker 2: to do what I wanted to do as a young person. 1552 01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:18,280 Speaker 2: But everything's everything is changing. It's changing so quickly. 1553 01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:24,040 Speaker 1: And you think a thirty year old novelist, novelists, maybe 1554 01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,320 Speaker 1: he is on their second novel, has a chance to 1555 01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:31,200 Speaker 1: have a twenty five year series like you've been able 1556 01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:33,719 Speaker 1: to develop. Not sure. 1557 01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,160 Speaker 2: I mean, listen some of some there are writers right now, 1558 01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:42,840 Speaker 2: a number of women writers who are just exploding, I 1559 01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:47,840 Speaker 2: mean had their they have incredible careers. But I think 1560 01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:50,679 Speaker 2: that it's going to be harder and harder and harder 1561 01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,120 Speaker 2: for new writers to break out. 1562 01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,320 Speaker 1: Well that's a good way to to sort of get 1563 01:28:57,360 --> 01:28:59,439 Speaker 1: you out of here on this. Who do you read? 1564 01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:02,720 Speaker 1: And what you reading? That isn't what it is when 1565 01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:04,519 Speaker 1: they're not writing, you say you read all the ticket. 1566 01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:07,160 Speaker 1: So we would love give me the daniels Less Summer 1567 01:29:07,200 --> 01:29:07,720 Speaker 1: reading list. 1568 01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:11,920 Speaker 2: I just finished the fourth volume of Robert Carrow's UH 1569 01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:17,240 Speaker 2: Linda Johnson biography. I'm reading I'm reading he Wait Till 1570 01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:19,719 Speaker 2: We get to Vietnam. I'm reading I'm on Robert, Let's 1571 01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:21,080 Speaker 2: get going, bud it and finish. 1572 01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:22,680 Speaker 1: I'm reading. 1573 01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:31,240 Speaker 2: Uh Evan Thomas's UH Robert Kennedy biography right now, and 1574 01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:34,200 Speaker 2: I've got but I finished that. I've got Garrett Graft's 1575 01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:36,519 Speaker 2: Watergate book in the in the in the bag to 1576 01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:38,559 Speaker 2: get me through the rest of the tour. 1577 01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:42,120 Speaker 1: So you're all non fiction? Do you read fiction some? 1578 01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:45,200 Speaker 2: I try not to read it when i'm writing, but 1579 01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,519 Speaker 2: when I'm when I'm traveling on book tour, I just 1580 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,559 Speaker 2: take the biggest, fattest books I can squeeze into my 1581 01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,559 Speaker 2: into my suitcase because I just spent a lot of 1582 01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,599 Speaker 2: time on airplanes. I've spent a lot of time sitting 1583 01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:59,960 Speaker 2: around hotels and and airports. 1584 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,160 Speaker 1: So I need I need pages. I need. 1585 01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:04,920 Speaker 2: I need a couple thousand pages to get me through 1586 01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:05,240 Speaker 2: a tour. 1587 01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:08,519 Speaker 1: When when do you start? You're on a schedule. And 1588 01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,240 Speaker 1: I've learned this with you over the years. Yeah, and 1589 01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:12,880 Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna I hope I get to see 1590 01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:17,439 Speaker 1: you an extra lie with with twenty six. When do 1591 01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:20,000 Speaker 1: you begin that process or have you already begun it? 1592 01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:25,519 Speaker 2: I have real let go itises I like to call 1593 01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:25,800 Speaker 2: it I. 1594 01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:27,559 Speaker 1: You know. 1595 01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:31,080 Speaker 2: Leonardo da Vinci famously said that no work of art 1596 01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:34,679 Speaker 2: is ever finished, It's only abandoned. There are my case, 1597 01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:37,519 Speaker 2: it's taken away by my publisher in time to publish 1598 01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:40,040 Speaker 2: it by my deadline. And I just sit there and 1599 01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:41,880 Speaker 2: I think, Gosh, I wish I did this. I wish 1600 01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:43,519 Speaker 2: I did that. The only way I could shut that 1601 01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,280 Speaker 2: office to start a new book. And so the day 1602 01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,000 Speaker 2: after I finished that book, I started the next book. 1603 01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:49,680 Speaker 1: And so I. 1604 01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:54,920 Speaker 2: Sit and work very very slowly all through June. Right 1605 01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,519 Speaker 2: around the first of July, I have to shut things down, 1606 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:03,240 Speaker 2: start doing some promotion work, and almost get reacquainted with 1607 01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:07,599 Speaker 2: the with the book again. And so I will come 1608 01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:11,439 Speaker 2: off tour, recover for a couple of days and get 1609 01:31:11,439 --> 01:31:12,000 Speaker 2: back to work. 1610 01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,720 Speaker 1: Do you dream as Gabriel Lalan or do you think 1611 01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,639 Speaker 1: as I see? I dream as Daniel Silva. 1612 01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:19,320 Speaker 2: I see him in my dreams. Definitely I do dream 1613 01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:25,200 Speaker 2: the stories I have. Frankly a non sleeper. I don't 1614 01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:28,080 Speaker 2: know about you, but I'm a sleep well. Yeah, I've 1615 01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:30,000 Speaker 2: two hours I sleep back up, baby, I wake up 1616 01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:33,599 Speaker 2: every two hours. I've sleep three hours a night. At most, 1617 01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,400 Speaker 2: I will wake up at you know, one or two 1618 01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:40,840 Speaker 2: in the morning, and if I'm lucky, maybe at four 1619 01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:43,559 Speaker 2: thirty or five, I'll fall asleep for one more hour. 1620 01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:47,120 Speaker 2: But so I do a lot of work at night 1621 01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:49,120 Speaker 2: in bed, and then I jump out of bed and 1622 01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:52,800 Speaker 2: and try to write down but what I saw in 1623 01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:54,680 Speaker 2: my head. I wish I could sleep, But I'm just 1624 01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:55,479 Speaker 2: a non sleeper. 1625 01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:02,280 Speaker 1: Well, I you know, look, we summer. You're usually my 1626 01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:05,600 Speaker 1: only fiction that I read on my summer, on my 1627 01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:10,800 Speaker 1: summer break, and so we're thankful. There's a few others 1628 01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:13,800 Speaker 1: that write thrillers that don't, aren't. They don't churn them 1629 01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:16,240 Speaker 1: out anymore like they used to. And I'll just leave 1630 01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:19,160 Speaker 1: it at that. You have not lost your motivation. And 1631 01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:23,640 Speaker 1: it never feels, uh what I'm always impressed with. It 1632 01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:29,200 Speaker 1: always feels what I would describe as familiar but fresh. 1633 01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:31,559 Speaker 1: Thank you. That's that's very kind of you. 1634 01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:39,400 Speaker 2: That is the my My publisher at harper Collins calls 1635 01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:41,639 Speaker 2: it the same but different. 1636 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:46,120 Speaker 1: No, it needs to feel fresh, it needs to feel new. 1637 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:50,120 Speaker 1: And I think I've gotten people to just, hey, read 1638 01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:53,320 Speaker 1: this one. If you don't have to read I think 1639 01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:56,800 Speaker 1: it is it is fun to have read everything, or 1640 01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:58,920 Speaker 1: read a majority of what you've done, but you don't 1641 01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:02,000 Speaker 1: have to. And I and that's not easy to do. 1642 01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:07,280 Speaker 2: No, I've tried to explain it on a couple of vacasions, 1643 01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:09,120 Speaker 2: and I don't do it terribly well. But I have 1644 01:33:09,200 --> 01:33:16,519 Speaker 2: to write the books for three different audiences. I have 1645 01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:19,320 Speaker 2: to write the book for the new person who's going 1646 01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:22,400 Speaker 2: to read it cold. I have to write the book 1647 01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:25,599 Speaker 2: for the person who's read every single book. 1648 01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:28,080 Speaker 1: And then I have this subset of. 1649 01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:33,880 Speaker 2: Readers that reread the books every year so before they 1650 01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:35,479 Speaker 2: read the new one. I don't know how they find 1651 01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,600 Speaker 2: the time. Who know my work better than I do 1652 01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:44,120 Speaker 2: at this point, have you had fans correct timelines? I've 1653 01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:48,760 Speaker 2: never made a mistake that I know of, And so 1654 01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:52,559 Speaker 2: it's an interesting thing when I'm writing to try to 1655 01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:55,200 Speaker 2: hit all three of them. And so I choose my 1656 01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:59,800 Speaker 2: words very very carefully in the amount of excuse me, 1657 01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:04,040 Speaker 2: bad story, and and and and you know, background information 1658 01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:06,280 Speaker 2: that I put in because I need to make sure 1659 01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:08,479 Speaker 2: that there's enough there so that the reader, the new 1660 01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,320 Speaker 2: reader knows, but there's not so much that that the 1661 01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,760 Speaker 2: old reader is bored by it and it doesn't want to. 1662 01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:15,920 Speaker 1: Look the single most important new reader. You need a 1663 01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,320 Speaker 1: new reader that loves it and says, I want to 1664 01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:22,439 Speaker 1: go back now. Yeah, right, that's the that's the home run. Right, Yes, 1665 01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:24,479 Speaker 1: that's the that is a home run. 1666 01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,599 Speaker 2: And and so it's it's a it's a delicate balance 1667 01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:29,479 Speaker 2: to try to get it right. 1668 01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:33,760 Speaker 1: Well, now, I'm I'm easy, I'm an easy critic. I 1669 01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:36,000 Speaker 1: say it's a home run. Go ahead and read this now, 1670 01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:39,560 Speaker 1: figure it out, and then start working your way backwards. 1671 01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 1: Or you can cherry pick the Vatican ones and and 1672 01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:46,680 Speaker 1: go from there. But like I said, you always the 1673 01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:50,439 Speaker 1: Vatican ones are always extra extra fund for me to 1674 01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:55,840 Speaker 1: read so standards, But of course it is. Uh, it's 1675 01:34:56,120 --> 01:34:59,320 Speaker 1: we've done this in multiple venues, in multiple places, and 1676 01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:02,519 Speaker 1: you have to riff. You have a terrific booker, and 1677 01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:04,679 Speaker 1: I do. Yeah, Jamie. 1678 01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:09,240 Speaker 2: Jamie is an amazing book She's not just a booker. 1679 01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:14,880 Speaker 2: She she's my agent. Yes, she's my business manager, and 1680 01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:16,960 Speaker 2: she's my she's my primary editor. 1681 01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:19,880 Speaker 1: She's also a president of your fan club. I don't 1682 01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,080 Speaker 1: think anybody's a bigger fan. I don't know about that. 1683 01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:24,160 Speaker 1: I get I get in. 1684 01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:29,160 Speaker 2: A lot of trouble, but uh, she she's a she's 1685 01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:30,960 Speaker 2: a great partner. I couldn't do it with that man 1686 01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:35,759 Speaker 2: for her help and sport right, mainly she just takes 1687 01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:37,400 Speaker 2: care of everything else so that I can. 1688 01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:38,360 Speaker 1: I can, I can. 1689 01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,719 Speaker 2: Stay locked in my office and work, and I could 1690 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:42,920 Speaker 2: not do it without her support. 1691 01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:46,880 Speaker 1: Well it is uh, it was Uh. I love that 1692 01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:49,080 Speaker 1: she came on. I appreciate it, and I hope people 1693 01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:51,439 Speaker 1: if I can help book. 1694 01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:54,519 Speaker 2: I didn't get to say the word. It's a great 1695 01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:57,920 Speaker 2: pleasure to be on the podcast. Yeah you like you look, 1696 01:35:58,040 --> 01:35:58,760 Speaker 2: it's dad here. 1697 01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:02,320 Speaker 1: You can't you know. My old ep it was the 1698 01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:05,000 Speaker 1: smartest thing I ever did. My old EEP said, well, 1699 01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:07,719 Speaker 1: you've got to name the podcast of the podcast hand. 1700 01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:11,200 Speaker 1: It is exactly why NBC had to let me take it. 1701 01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:14,040 Speaker 1: It was the It was brilliant. If you name something 1702 01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:16,599 Speaker 1: after yourself, it is harder for them to own that 1703 01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:20,200 Speaker 1: intellectual property. As we made it clear, they couldn't find 1704 01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:22,679 Speaker 1: somebody else to host the Chuck Podcast unless they hide 1705 01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:27,360 Speaker 1: somebody named Chuck. You know it was. It was a 1706 01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:30,599 Speaker 1: I give my old eep John Reese. You may remember 1707 01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:33,719 Speaker 1: John Reese back in the NBC days. It was his idea. 1708 01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,519 Speaker 1: And you know, we're all good for a few dad 1709 01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:37,280 Speaker 1: humor puns. Right, that's great. 1710 01:36:37,479 --> 01:36:39,960 Speaker 2: It's great though, Thank you so much for having me. 1711 01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:43,080 Speaker 1: All right, Daniel, congress and be safe on the tour. Thanks, 1712 01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:58,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Well, I hope. Uh My guess is, 1713 01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:01,200 Speaker 1: if you're a Daniel Silva fan already, your probably are 1714 01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:05,400 Speaker 1: further along in the book than I am. But I 1715 01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:10,839 Speaker 1: admire his intellect, I admire his creativity, and most importantly, 1716 01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:15,439 Speaker 1: I admire Daniel's work ethic. I mean, twenty five books 1717 01:37:15,439 --> 01:37:20,439 Speaker 1: in twenty five years, and they're all good. It's pretty impressive. 1718 01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:25,960 Speaker 1: Before I get to a few ask check questions, man, 1719 01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:30,840 Speaker 1: Ozzy Osbourne was sort of a look this is I 1720 01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:35,519 Speaker 1: will give you a few quick anecdotes. I was obsessed 1721 01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:38,320 Speaker 1: with Ozzy as a kid. I'll let you guys judge 1722 01:37:38,600 --> 01:37:42,080 Speaker 1: judge me all you want on that you know dire 1723 01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:49,000 Speaker 1: Va Madman, that album Final which I probably I probably 1724 01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:52,599 Speaker 1: played that so often. I knew the words to every 1725 01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:55,400 Speaker 1: one of those songs. Other people were crazy trained people. 1726 01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:58,920 Speaker 1: I was Dire of a Madman. That was That was 1727 01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:01,720 Speaker 1: my favorite album. I was so obsessed with them. 1728 01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:02,519 Speaker 2: So we was. 1729 01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:05,800 Speaker 1: So this is there was a time when I was 1730 01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:09,320 Speaker 1: excited about the White House Correspondence Center. And that was 1731 01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:12,200 Speaker 1: back before I was a White House correspondent. I was 1732 01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:14,840 Speaker 1: just I worked at the Hotline. I worked for National Journal. 1733 01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:17,960 Speaker 1: You know, we were we were. We were the nobodies 1734 01:38:18,120 --> 01:38:20,519 Speaker 1: that were of course producing a ton of work, but 1735 01:38:20,560 --> 01:38:24,639 Speaker 1: we are the nobodies, and so to go, like going 1736 01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:26,640 Speaker 1: to the White House Correspondence Center was always like a 1737 01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:30,400 Speaker 1: thrill at that time. It was a lot of fun because, frankly, 1738 01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:33,000 Speaker 1: you could be anonymous, so you could be stupid. You 1739 01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:35,280 Speaker 1: could maybe have a good time and not not feel 1740 01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:37,679 Speaker 1: like you were going to embarrass your bosses or embarrass 1741 01:38:38,120 --> 01:38:40,080 Speaker 1: or you know, get ridicooled on TV. This is two 1742 01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:43,880 Speaker 1: thousand and two, mind you, right. So Ozzie's coming and 1743 01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:48,639 Speaker 1: us first year I'm married to my wife, our first 1744 01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:54,840 Speaker 1: year of marriage, and she's at another tape. I'm at 1745 01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,080 Speaker 1: another tape. Turns out she's at she's at the table 1746 01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:01,439 Speaker 1: next to Ozzy Osbourne. We find this out early, early 1747 01:39:01,520 --> 01:39:05,760 Speaker 1: enough that I bring my Diary of a Madman LP 1748 01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:09,240 Speaker 1: not the record itself, because I didn't want to mess 1749 01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:12,519 Speaker 1: that up. But the but the but the cover, and 1750 01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:15,840 Speaker 1: I gave it to her to get him to sign it, 1751 01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:18,000 Speaker 1: and he did. He was he was great. I didn't 1752 01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:21,320 Speaker 1: get to have the interaction with him she did, but 1753 01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:26,000 Speaker 1: it is one of one of my favorite possessions. Ozzy 1754 01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:28,040 Speaker 1: Osborne was going to be the first concert I ever 1755 01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,519 Speaker 1: got to at ten, I was so into him. My 1756 01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:32,840 Speaker 1: dad had finally he was coming to the Orange Bowl 1757 01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:38,800 Speaker 1: and my dad was going to take me, and I'm 1758 01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:40,680 Speaker 1: pretty sure he had the tickets. Okay, I'm not going 1759 01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:42,240 Speaker 1: to say, you know, I don't. I don't I get 1760 01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to stories about your parents, right, 1761 01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, when you're five or six, I don't have 1762 01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:48,000 Speaker 1: a second source. Okay, I had. I was an only child, 1763 01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:49,720 Speaker 1: so I have no second source. But he was going 1764 01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:51,680 Speaker 1: to take me, and I think we had tickets and 1765 01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:54,000 Speaker 1: we were going to go. I think it was I 1766 01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,240 Speaker 1: can't remember. You know. Mimi was one of his tour 1767 01:39:56,240 --> 01:40:00,680 Speaker 1: stops and Randy roadsted right before he was supposed to 1768 01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:06,360 Speaker 1: come to Miami and he never came. Concert never happened. Uh, 1769 01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:09,080 Speaker 1: And I've never did get to see Ozzy Osbourne in concert. 1770 01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,719 Speaker 1: So I don't know one hundred percent if my father 1771 01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:18,440 Speaker 1: had the tickets, but it was It's an important childhood 1772 01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:24,719 Speaker 1: like missed opportunity for me on that front. But anyway, 1773 01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,800 Speaker 1: for us us in gen X. Look, I I went 1774 01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:33,360 Speaker 1: through my metal stage. Ozzie, Uh, Black Sabbath, you know, 1775 01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:37,800 Speaker 1: all the guys that inspired Metallica basically fact, back then, 1776 01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:40,479 Speaker 1: I used to mock Kiss older I got. I kind 1777 01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:43,679 Speaker 1: of like Kiss right, the older you get the poppy 1778 01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:47,040 Speaker 1: metal ended up being pretty interesting eighties metal, right, Kiss 1779 01:40:47,120 --> 01:40:50,080 Speaker 1: was sort of the godfather of eighties metal, the hairbands, 1780 01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:54,479 Speaker 1: if you will. But Ozzie and Black Sabbath, that was 1781 01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,400 Speaker 1: that was slightly different, right, you know, so I was 1782 01:40:57,439 --> 01:40:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, there was you know, as kids, you know, 1783 01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:01,519 Speaker 1: there was sort of there were different groups, right. The 1784 01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:05,799 Speaker 1: Kiss fans were never Ozzy fans, at least in my world. Anyway. 1785 01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:09,519 Speaker 1: One thing about Ozzie Man, that dude reinvented himself. And 1786 01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:12,040 Speaker 1: you could say, you know, there's a lot of people 1787 01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:15,879 Speaker 1: who there's a lot of founding fathers of reality television. 1788 01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:18,280 Speaker 1: I still think O. J. Simpson trial is the founding 1789 01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:21,720 Speaker 1: is sort of the founding father of reality TV. If 1790 01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:24,920 Speaker 1: you will like the founding events that sort of that 1791 01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:27,959 Speaker 1: made people think to do more of this, and Survivor 1792 01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:30,599 Speaker 1: started around then, and of course after that became Trump 1793 01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,760 Speaker 1: and The Apprentice, but the whole following around Ozzy and 1794 01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:37,960 Speaker 1: his family, where his entire family became famous just for 1795 01:41:38,120 --> 01:41:42,479 Speaker 1: sort of hanging out with Ozzy Osbourne, Sharon Osbourne, his daughter, 1796 01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:47,519 Speaker 1: et cetera. You could say he had two that his 1797 01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,439 Speaker 1: career in TV was more influential on the culture than 1798 01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:54,479 Speaker 1: his career in music. Anyway, let me take a couple 1799 01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:57,320 Speaker 1: of questions. Rest in peace, Ozzy. I can't wait to 1800 01:41:57,320 --> 01:41:59,320 Speaker 1: go home. I'm not traveling right now. I'm going to 1801 01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:05,280 Speaker 1: go home. Put Direvy Madman on vinyl. You know something, something, 1802 01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:09,920 Speaker 1: something nostalgic for me on that? All right, let me 1803 01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:12,559 Speaker 1: take a couple of questions. A little last Chuck, ask Chuck. 1804 01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:19,839 Speaker 1: This one comes from Mary W. Greetings from Ruby Red Rural, Ohio. 1805 01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:22,479 Speaker 1: I've been loving the podcast while out delivering food. Right. 1806 01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:25,160 Speaker 1: My kids watched MTP for so long they thought the 1807 01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:28,960 Speaker 1: show was called Chuck Todd. I'm running for my anty 1808 01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:30,880 Speaker 1: bitty local school board. There is no such thing as 1809 01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:33,439 Speaker 1: itty bitty local school board, and my husband is a 1810 01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:35,639 Speaker 1: blue collar factory worker in our very poor area in Ohio. 1811 01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:37,439 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts on how recent Department 1812 01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:40,920 Speaker 1: of Education changes could impact struggling schools like ours, Maybe 1813 01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:43,680 Speaker 1: even an expert interview. Also, since my kids thirteen to 1814 01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:45,400 Speaker 1: ten are always asking about the world, I'd love to 1815 01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:48,360 Speaker 1: know how you answered big questions when your kids were younger. 1816 01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:52,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do, Mary w So, you know, 1817 01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:56,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting my kids got in some ways they would 1818 01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,679 Speaker 1: hide from it. My kids used to resent in middle 1819 01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:02,960 Speaker 1: school in early high school. All of their government teachers 1820 01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:07,240 Speaker 1: assumed that they were is into politics as their dad was, 1821 01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:11,000 Speaker 1: so sometimes it's sort of a little bit of resentment 1822 01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:13,439 Speaker 1: would grow. So I had that was just an extra 1823 01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:18,760 Speaker 1: sort of hurdle. Although these days, now that they're young adults, 1824 01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:23,559 Speaker 1: they're much more interested in what I do. In fact, 1825 01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:26,600 Speaker 1: I'm getting comments from my son about my podcast. I 1826 01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,920 Speaker 1: didn't know he was listening. So, Harrison, what do you 1827 01:43:29,920 --> 01:43:35,719 Speaker 1: think of this answer? Anyway? You know what I'd always 1828 01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:38,040 Speaker 1: try to do when they were that age, is you 1829 01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:40,320 Speaker 1: sort of try to answer the question. I was always 1830 01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:42,760 Speaker 1: mindful that whatever answer I gave they were going to 1831 01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:45,400 Speaker 1: repeat to a friend or to a teacher. So I 1832 01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:47,840 Speaker 1: always wanted to make sure whatever they were repeating is 1833 01:43:47,840 --> 01:43:51,600 Speaker 1: something I was comfortable with than repeating. I remember my 1834 01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:56,120 Speaker 1: daughter during the UH I think it was the twenty 1835 01:43:56,200 --> 01:43:59,519 Speaker 1: twelve election. My daughter said, oh, my friends want to know, 1836 01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:03,200 Speaker 1: well who my dad, what party my dad is? And 1837 01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,400 Speaker 1: a teacher said to me that Margaret stood up one 1838 01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:08,879 Speaker 1: day and said, my dad is a Republican and a Democrat. 1839 01:44:11,240 --> 01:44:12,760 Speaker 1: She was trying to say, is that he doesn't he 1840 01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:14,839 Speaker 1: doesn't take sides. But that was her way of answering 1841 01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:19,400 Speaker 1: it when she was seven, which I, you know, I appreciated. 1842 01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:22,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't even thinking that way at the time, meaning like, 1843 01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:23,760 Speaker 1: how is it going to get repeated? But I was 1844 01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:27,240 Speaker 1: always a little mindful of that. But I think you 1845 01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:29,880 Speaker 1: want to be mindful of that, you know. So I'd 1846 01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:34,559 Speaker 1: give him as I'd give him the information and essentially 1847 01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:37,280 Speaker 1: give him more and more as I thought they were 1848 01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:41,160 Speaker 1: mature enough to handle it. And unfortunately in this era there, 1849 01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it is not safe for work, right, 1850 01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:48,120 Speaker 1: the conversations not safe for kids. I'll never forget having 1851 01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:51,800 Speaker 1: to explain to a group of middle schoolers at my 1852 01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:58,040 Speaker 1: temple one time about Bill Clinton's impeachment, and one of 1853 01:44:58,080 --> 01:45:00,800 Speaker 1: them asked, why was Bill Clinton impeached while he lied? 1854 01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:05,080 Speaker 1: He lied under oath? Well, what did he lie about? This? 1855 01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:06,800 Speaker 1: Was like a twelve year old or a thirteen year old, 1856 01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:09,960 Speaker 1: And I said, I think you probably ought to ask 1857 01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:14,559 Speaker 1: your parents first. I don't know what the rules are here. 1858 01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the adult suddenly telling the 1859 01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:22,720 Speaker 1: kids about oral sex or what the definition of sex was, right. 1860 01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:24,760 Speaker 1: And that's what I think a lot of parents during 1861 01:45:24,760 --> 01:45:28,000 Speaker 1: that Clinton Clinton's problem, people were you know, didn't think 1862 01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:29,800 Speaker 1: he should be impeached, but they were angry that they 1863 01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:32,439 Speaker 1: were forced to have conversations with their kids about this. So, 1864 01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, I just tried to ground I always just 1865 01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:37,920 Speaker 1: tried to ground it in the life that they were living, 1866 01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, as I would explain to them more never 1867 01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:42,800 Speaker 1: hit it, never hid what I was doing. I always 1868 01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:46,800 Speaker 1: tried to be but as explanatory as possible, you know. 1869 01:45:47,200 --> 01:45:49,880 Speaker 1: And my guess is somebody like yourself running for school board, 1870 01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:52,519 Speaker 1: you know exactly exactly what I mean when you just 1871 01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, almost load them up a little bit with facts. 1872 01:45:57,320 --> 01:46:01,519 Speaker 1: And I always use sports as a way to compare it, 1873 01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, you know, it's a competition here this or that, 1874 01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:06,879 Speaker 1: but it was more grounding and what they were interested 1875 01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:11,360 Speaker 1: in and trying to explain it view their interests. On 1876 01:46:11,400 --> 01:46:14,920 Speaker 1: that front, I appreciate the suggestion Department of Education. I 1877 01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:16,840 Speaker 1: think the number one thing, and I know you're dealing 1878 01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:19,719 Speaker 1: with this now running for school board, that most people 1879 01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:25,360 Speaker 1: don't realize is that public schools have to provide services 1880 01:46:25,080 --> 01:46:28,920 Speaker 1: for students with special needs. Private schools don't have to 1881 01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:31,080 Speaker 1: do that, right you have to sometimes shop for a 1882 01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:34,640 Speaker 1: private school if you have a kid that needs you know, 1883 01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:39,720 Speaker 1: needs a little extra help or a little extra or 1884 01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:43,519 Speaker 1: maybe more time, whatever it is. A public school has 1885 01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:46,240 Speaker 1: to do this, and that money comes from the Department 1886 01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:50,120 Speaker 1: of Education. And I think that that is the real fear. 1887 01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a good friend of mine who's 1888 01:46:54,160 --> 01:46:58,240 Speaker 1: who had a child diagnosed with autism late in life 1889 01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,320 Speaker 1: for this, meaning of when they were in middle school. 1890 01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:04,720 Speaker 1: So it's sort of version of a you know, on 1891 01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:09,120 Speaker 1: the spectrum and all this and just raved about how 1892 01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:12,720 Speaker 1: many resources the public school system had. Turns out all 1893 01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:15,439 Speaker 1: those resources are funded by the federal government. Right. Yes, 1894 01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:20,439 Speaker 1: most local schools are funded by locals with property taxes. 1895 01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:24,679 Speaker 1: But the stuff that that costs extra like that special 1896 01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:28,719 Speaker 1: special needs teachers, you know that you have to hire 1897 01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:30,840 Speaker 1: to deal with special needs students and things like that. 1898 01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:33,559 Speaker 1: All of that usually gets subsidized by the federal government. 1899 01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:36,320 Speaker 1: And that that is, that is to me, is a conversation. 1900 01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:39,720 Speaker 1: You were right to suggest that, and that is a 1901 01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:42,960 Speaker 1: conversation that I think I'm going to try to drill down. 1902 01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:45,880 Speaker 1: And I know I've got a couple of education specific 1903 01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:51,000 Speaker 1: folks on the coming up soon, so hopefully I will 1904 01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:54,719 Speaker 1: I will remember uh and I'll be getting knee deep 1905 01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:58,160 Speaker 1: into that specific there. Good luck in your campaign, Mary, 1906 01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:01,000 Speaker 1: and keep us posted. We're all going to be curious 1907 01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:03,920 Speaker 1: how things go. I'd love to learn more about your 1908 01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:07,360 Speaker 1: experience running for running for office. Next question comes from 1909 01:48:07,400 --> 01:48:14,559 Speaker 1: Andrea selenas no, excuse me, it is Bill Newburgh. Sorry 1910 01:48:17,439 --> 01:48:21,160 Speaker 1: because Andrew Selena is a member of Congress. Anyway, Bill 1911 01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:24,760 Speaker 1: Newberg from Oregon, the sixth district, the Fighting six it's 1912 01:48:24,800 --> 01:48:28,960 Speaker 1: a little homage to Colbert. Andrea selenis representing as as 1913 01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:31,200 Speaker 1: Bill puts it, and he says, it's now that Stephen 1914 01:48:31,240 --> 01:48:33,200 Speaker 1: Colbert is going to have some free time next year, 1915 01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,320 Speaker 1: why don't you and he start up a show podcast, news, fair, 1916 01:48:36,360 --> 01:48:38,599 Speaker 1: whatever medium you choose called get to know a district 1917 01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:40,000 Speaker 1: so the two of you can interview all of the 1918 01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:41,760 Speaker 1: foreign and thirty five house members. I think there'd be 1919 01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:44,040 Speaker 1: some good chemistry teen you and Stephen. Also, do you 1920 01:48:44,080 --> 01:48:46,599 Speaker 1: think we will see more notable hosts leave huge networks 1921 01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:50,240 Speaker 1: to embark on their own show endeavors. Look, I love 1922 01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:53,479 Speaker 1: get to know your district. I love that I miss 1923 01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:57,439 Speaker 1: that I missed that form of the Colbert Show. You 1924 01:48:57,439 --> 01:48:59,880 Speaker 1: know it's sort of its roots, right, you know, it's 1925 01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:03,120 Speaker 1: like it's like saying, you know, I liked I liked to, 1926 01:49:03,439 --> 01:49:05,840 Speaker 1: I like to I like Black Sabbath when I was 1927 01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:10,720 Speaker 1: the Osborne was the lead singer, Right, So uh uh, 1928 01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:13,200 Speaker 1: it's a it's a fun idea. I do think that, 1929 01:49:13,800 --> 01:49:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm kind of a dork about it. 1930 01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:18,400 Speaker 1: And of course, if we're up to me, we wouldn't 1931 01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:20,120 Speaker 1: have four and thirty five house members. We'd have eight 1932 01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:22,320 Speaker 1: hundred house members because I do think we need more 1933 01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:26,920 Speaker 1: actual members of Coppers. I'll tell you this, I I 1934 01:49:26,920 --> 01:49:29,680 Speaker 1: I would do if if I thought there was a 1935 01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:31,519 Speaker 1: market for it, I would do it in a heartbeat. 1936 01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:34,960 Speaker 1: Uh maybe with Stephen Colbert sent a humor. There could 1937 01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:38,200 Speaker 1: be I know him a little bit. Always been very 1938 01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:42,439 Speaker 1: nice to me, you know, very respectful. Uh did his 1939 01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,640 Speaker 1: did the old Comedy Central show once. Once he went 1940 01:49:45,640 --> 01:49:48,599 Speaker 1: to CBS, then you NBC wasn't allowed to be in CBS, 1941 01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:53,280 Speaker 1: and vice versa. There's always all those things. But uh, 1942 01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:59,320 Speaker 1: a fun suggestion. Nonetheless, look, I think, uh, you know, Colbert, 1943 01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:02,000 Speaker 1: you know the you asked this question. We'll see more 1944 01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:05,280 Speaker 1: notable hosts leave huge networks embarking their own show endeavors. Well, 1945 01:50:05,280 --> 01:50:07,599 Speaker 1: those that have followings can and those that don't want. 1946 01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:11,840 Speaker 1: But it's a lot of work and it's in you know, 1947 01:50:11,920 --> 01:50:14,680 Speaker 1: I missed my team. I miss collaborating. I've got a 1948 01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:18,360 Speaker 1: good small team of collaborators, but you do miss that big, 1949 01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:24,480 Speaker 1: big newsroom. I get energy from a large newsroom myself. 1950 01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:29,599 Speaker 1: So it is. It is not for everybody on this front, 1951 01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:33,799 Speaker 1: but you could easily see either John Stewart or Stephen 1952 01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:39,400 Speaker 1: Colbert arguably build larger financial juggernauts if they wanted to 1953 01:50:39,920 --> 01:50:43,920 Speaker 1: independently rather than rather than using the resources of a 1954 01:50:45,040 --> 01:50:52,519 Speaker 1: traditional media company. So there's no doubt that's there. I think, 1955 01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:55,599 Speaker 1: you know, the thing that I think about with comedy 1956 01:50:55,720 --> 01:51:00,599 Speaker 1: is is it possible to do what Conan, Letterman, Leno 1957 01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:03,599 Speaker 1: and Carson did, which is, you know, Leno was was 1958 01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:08,960 Speaker 1: intentionally bipartisan, and he would I remember him bragging to 1959 01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:12,120 Speaker 1: me once he says, I did somebody kept track of this. 1960 01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:14,479 Speaker 1: I did. Fifty percent of my jokes were against Democrats 1961 01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:16,800 Speaker 1: and fifty percent of my jokes were Republicans. And he 1962 01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,160 Speaker 1: kept track of that, and he cared about that. That 1963 01:51:19,280 --> 01:51:22,960 Speaker 1: was his way of trying to do it. Conan was, 1964 01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, just didn't get that political You know, he 1965 01:51:25,439 --> 01:51:27,439 Speaker 1: would get it, but he always did it in this 1966 01:51:27,520 --> 01:51:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of you know, outsider like aspect. Letterman sort of 1967 01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:35,679 Speaker 1: the same way Letterman really steered. I'd argue Letterman steered 1968 01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:40,439 Speaker 1: further away from politics than even Johnny did back in 1969 01:51:40,479 --> 01:51:46,800 Speaker 1: the day. So, you know, now our whole culture has 1970 01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:49,840 Speaker 1: gotten politicized. There's almost an expectation that if you don't 1971 01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,920 Speaker 1: have political jokes, that's weird, right, And yet who's getting 1972 01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:58,000 Speaker 1: huge crowds these days. Nate Bargatzi. He doesn't do. You know, 1973 01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:01,719 Speaker 1: he sort of stays away from cursing, stays right from politics. 1974 01:52:01,800 --> 01:52:09,800 Speaker 1: So you know that's that's the uh. I wonder how 1975 01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:12,599 Speaker 1: much this is something that in ten years, I want 1976 01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:14,920 Speaker 1: to ask Colbert a question. I want to wait ten years, 1977 01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:19,400 Speaker 1: but ask him whether if he could do it all 1978 01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:22,080 Speaker 1: over again, would he would Would he have wanted to 1979 01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:25,160 Speaker 1: stay in the political satire space or go in another space? 1980 01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:28,880 Speaker 1: And I wonder the answer to that question, because it 1981 01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:32,600 Speaker 1: can It can be exhilarating and limiting, right, depending on 1982 01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:35,719 Speaker 1: the moment in time that you're in on that front. 1983 01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:41,920 Speaker 1: But I think if he chooses to, he could have 1984 01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:46,680 Speaker 1: a powerhouse following We'll see right this is but it's 1985 01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:49,760 Speaker 1: a lot of work. He's going to have to do 1986 01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,960 Speaker 1: more than forty weeks a year and type of thing. 1987 01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,879 Speaker 1: But maybe not right. And I definitely think John Stewart 1988 01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:00,760 Speaker 1: in some ways his he already has sort of a 1989 01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:05,320 Speaker 1: rhythm that you could see him immediately sort of shifting 1990 01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:08,360 Speaker 1: if that thing went away for some reason, Paramount decided 1991 01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:10,759 Speaker 1: that they didn't want to be in the John Stewart business. 1992 01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:13,280 Speaker 1: In some ways he could, he could easily, But the 1993 01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:15,040 Speaker 1: downside is there's a lot of people that work for 1994 01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:17,679 Speaker 1: him that wouldn't get work. And I do think both 1995 01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:19,760 Speaker 1: of them are mindful of that as well. 1996 01:53:20,920 --> 01:53:21,080 Speaker 2: Well. 1997 01:53:21,080 --> 01:53:22,479 Speaker 1: I'd love to get to know a district. K Man, 1998 01:53:22,640 --> 01:53:24,439 Speaker 1: I'm one of those. I'm doing a million, as you 1999 01:53:24,479 --> 01:53:27,960 Speaker 1: point out, how many different things I'm enjoying, doing a 2000 01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,960 Speaker 1: little thing here, a little thing there. If I could 2001 01:53:30,960 --> 01:53:34,360 Speaker 1: get more people to understand house races, and I could 2002 01:53:34,479 --> 01:53:38,240 Speaker 1: use Stephen Colbert's humor to do it, count me in, 2003 01:53:38,280 --> 01:53:42,719 Speaker 1: my friend. All Right, I've gone on a long time. 2004 01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:48,599 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let go. I will upload and update this 2005 01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:51,839 Speaker 1: in twenty four hours, but until then, enjoy the evening, 2006 01:53:52,000 --> 01:53:54,320 Speaker 1: and I hope you enjoyed this podcast. Thanks for listening. 2007 01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,320 Speaker 1: If you can like and subscribe and pass it on, 2008 01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:01,160 Speaker 1: it's always helpful and it's apreciating it. With that, until 2009 01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:04,160 Speaker 1: we upload again. M