WEBVTT - 10. Re-evaluation 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:10.920 Murder in Illinois is a production of iHeartRadio. At this point, 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.560 it was April of twenty twenty one, and the last 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.560 email I'd received from Christopher Vaughan began with Lauren, I'm 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.200 so sorry to have wasted your time. I am done 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.040 with the podcast. That email ended with I thank you 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.440 for your compassion and your willingness to help. I wish 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.040 you all the best, Chris. This was an unexpected and 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.479 unfortunate turn, especially in light of the potential insight. Chris's 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.040 five page letter provided something I conveyed to his parents 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:44.279 on April first. It's so strange that he sent that 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.280 to me, because today I got my first shot of 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.680 the vaccine, so I'm that much closer to being able 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.160 to visit with him. And I think you were right. 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.160 You both said that he knows what to expect from life. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.480 Right now, well digitally. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.360 That's why he hasn't called us this week, because he's been. 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.360 Overthinking going through it. Going through a new trial is 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:09.640 like pulling chief with him. He doesn't want to go 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.160 back to Joli yet. He doesn't want to bring up 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.200 the loss of his children again. He doesn't want to 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.440 point a finger at Kim and then he gets scared. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.360 He doesn't want to put hope out there. He thought 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.880 that he was not good enough to take care and 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:36.920 watch over and save his children, and he doesn't want 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.800 it out there again that he was unable to do that. 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:44.959 For him, time has stood still. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:46.280 That might be. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.800 Fourteen years later, but for him, I think he's just 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.440 rerunning it all the time. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:57.440 Well, like Gale said, he has nothing to do twenty 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:02.120 four to seven but think about this, and he's got 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.960 anxiety about going through this all again. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:12.480 Well, there are other avenues for post conviction relief other 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:13.840 than a trial. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.480 Okay, that would help, because right now Chris only sees 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.600 a retrial. I know that if we could actually get 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.520 to talk to him, visit him, and it would help 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:28.760 things a lot. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.400 I was becoming increasingly convinced that Bond's version, as laid 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.040 out in the letter, provided answers to issues I'd personally 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.800 had with both the prosecution and the defensive scenarios of 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:46.960 the events. I have been through everything with a fine toothcomb. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.239 They theorize how he did it, but they can't explain 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.440 why there is no blood trail from the passenger side 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.200 if he was shot on one side and he was standing. 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:59.320 On the other he would have had to have walked 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.320 around the car. Are either the front or the back? 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.880 None of it makes sense. They proved motive, but they 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:12.239 never proved that he did it. Forensics are explained by 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:17.800 his version of what happened that day. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.160 and this is murder in Illinois. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.040 Gange Dilloy. 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:39.200 Cry Gange feel ground. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.760 Well, that's disappointing, yes, but understandable. I reached out to 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.120 Bill to discuss Chris's email about no longer moving forward. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.920 There have been parts of his memories that he's kept 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:21.000 really hidden from himself and locked away for a long time, 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.720 and now they're all out there. He had to put 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.200 them on the page, and now he's living with them 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.200 on a daily basis. I told his parents that I 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.960 was going to keep corresponding with him and just ask 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:37.919 that he meet with me. At least his version of 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.560 the events really seems to explain the forensics of the car. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.840 If his letter ends up being backed up by your 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:51.680 crime scene reconstruction, is there another option other than going 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.400 through another trial, perhaps going to the ag or to 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:56.960 the governor. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.880 Yeah, I mean, it's a lot on all of these 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:08.560 avenues are just extremely difficult, but executive clemency it stands 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.320 a better chance than going back. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:11.960 To wil County. 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.120 Executive clemency would be a possible way of avoiding another trial. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.000 It referred to the general powers of the President and 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.320 of governors to pardon, grant, amnesty, communion, or reprieve to 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.960 individuals who've been convicted. Two days after that discussion, Gale 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.599 and Pierre called with news they'd finally heard from Chris. 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.600 I immediately reached back out to Bill. They spoke to Chris. 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:40.360 They said, he cannot give up on himself, and he 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.320 cannot quit until he has sat with us in person 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.720 and we've talked to him about his other options and 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:49.800 he's back on board. 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:54.160 That's great, That is a positive development. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.480 Yeah, he's stirred up all these feelings and emotions and memories, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:05.560 and on many levels, I think he's come to the 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.200 conclusion that it would be easier to just stay where 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.440 he is and live what he knows. 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:18.599 He just has resigned himself to just isolating, and it's 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:20.360 good that his parents were able to get through to it. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.760 Another obstacle would be getting Chris to agree to share 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.719 the information in that deeply personal letter he'd sent his parents. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:35.200 It is also the only eyewitness account of the events 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:40.520 that day, and if it does end up overlapping seamlessly 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.239 with the forensics in terms of recreating the crime scene, 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:51.640 it's ultimately the key to getting him out, and so 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.679 we need to address it. 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:01.400 It's an incredibly difficult cases, it is, but having his 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:02.960 cooperation is essential. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:09.120 Absolutely. It becomes very clear that he was incapable or 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:14.200 unwilling to defend himself until this point. So it is 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:19.120 a breakthrough, you know, it's as if he was challenging 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.440 people to figure it out without his help. 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.960 Yeah. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.000 My next step was to reach out for advice to 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.440 a prominent force in the innocence community, Jason Flam, the 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.320 host of the Wrongful Conviction podcast that bears his name. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.040 Our pads actually crossed a few years back when I 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.920 picked up a freelance producing job for the Doctor Phil 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.400 Show solely for the chance to meet Flom in person. 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.679 As it turned out, he was listening to Murder in Oregon, 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.680 one of my previous podcasts at the time, and we've 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.600 stayed in touch since. As an aside, Jason's three decades 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.600 of work in the field of justice, reform is as 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.400 impressive as his day job as a record label executive. 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.360 He's launched the careers of acts like Matchbox twenty, Katy Perry, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.320 and Lord. He's a truly impressive, inspiring guy. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.760 I am the founding board member of the Innocence Project 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.880 in New York, not the founder by any means, but 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.040 the founding board member of Big Difference. The founders, of course, 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.280 are Parry Schech and Peter Neufeld. I don't remember the 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.120 exact case, but I turned on the TV and there 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.800 was the story that the Innocence Project, which was a 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.600 brand new organization back then, had found the DNA in 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.920 a case of a guy who was about to be executed, 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.160 and at sort of the last hour, had ridden in 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.760 like the Avengers and proven that this man was innocent. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:44.680 Not only did he not get execute it, but he 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.760 was freed. And I thought, that's the most amazing, craziest 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.840 shit I've ever heard. It never occurred to me back 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.560 then that innocent people went to prison. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.800 That was thirty years ago, and ever since, Flohm has 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.800 become a power full voice for the powerless and voiceless, 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.400 and well versed in the misconception surrounding wrongful convictions. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:14.360 There's growing awareness, for sure about the scourge of wrongful convictions, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.680 but I think it's probably hard for the human mind, 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.640 or the American mind, to process the idea that it's 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.560 as common as it is, because if you accept that, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.880 then you have to also understand that it could happen 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.439 to you. The fact is, it happens all the damn time, 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.840 and social scientists different studies have estimated between four and 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:40.040 seven percent of people in prison are innocent in America, 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.240 some say as high as ten percent. I personally think 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.920 it may be higher because it's the guilty plea problem, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.000 and that doesn't even take into account the huge number 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.200 of people that are in jail who haven't been convicted 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:53.680 of anything. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.679 Flom is all too familiar with the most sobering statistics 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.800 about our legal system, in particular pre conviction incarceration. 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.720 Almost five hundred thousand people in jail right now as 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.560 we're talking who haven't been convicted of anything, and the 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.560 majority of those people are actually innocent. So when you 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.600 add all those numbers together, you get to a really 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.480 high number of people that are actually innocent. I mean, 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.480 over two hundred thousand seems to be very likely two 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.400 hundred thousand people innocent of the crimes for which they're 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.959 serving time or awaiting trial is nuts. And every one 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.120 of them has a story and had dreams and hopes 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.280 and aspirations as a family of some sort. It's a massive, 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:45.480 massive problem. But I'm super humbled and grateful that people 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.840 listen to my podcast and are learning and getting involved, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.040 and change is coming. It's happening right now. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.840 Change and reform he's dedicated to making sure also addresses 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.560 the treatment of people after they've served their sentences. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.480 Yeah, there's almost an analogy I would draw where you've 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:08.480 probably seen these cities and counties where they take the 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.280 spots where homeless people sleep at night, and they put 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.000 spikes on the benches and things. I mean, isn't it 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.560 bad enough that these people are without a place to live, 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.079 and now we're going to take away what little comfort 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.280 they may have been able to find under a bridge 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.599 or god knows where. And it's sort of like the 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.480 same thing we do with people coming out of prison, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.600 innocent or guilty, right where we should be providing them 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.400 with the tools that they need to re enter society, 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.280 to be able to go back to their community, to 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.480 their family, to their school and have a chance, a 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.160 real chance at rebuilding their life. Instead, we put up 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:51.160 roadblocks at every turn. Basically, they have to live a 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:57.280 life of purity and sanctity and perfection and promptness, and 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.960 they have to be on time for their parole officer 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.079 and whatever. They can't you need a poppy seat bagel 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.920 because they'll fail a drug test and otherwise they're going 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.720 back to jail. And of course there's all the other 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.960 barriers right into employment and housing. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.080 That's the other thing. I think that there is this naivete, 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:20.800 this misconception that if someone is innocent and you can 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:26.480 prove it, that they're automatically welcomed back into society led 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.040 out of prison. And it's a huge hurdle. And that's 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.319 why I'm reaching out to you, because in the case 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.240 with Chris Vaughan, I didn't want to reach out to 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.640 you actually until I felt that I could very clearly 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:45.240 articulate why I needed your advice and why I needed 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.439 your guidance and your help in this. With Chris's knowledge 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.760 and his parent support, I'd sent Jason Bond's five page letter. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:59.160 In addition to extensive background information, crime scene reports, depositions, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.480 and build Clutter's twenty ten detailed summary, which made the 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.920 case for murder suicide based on forensic evidence. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.800 I often think that the only thing worse than being 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.480 wrongfully convicted and sent to prison for the rest of 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.280 your life or death row, or any any variation of that, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:23.400 is being wrongfully convicted of murdering a relative, particularly a child, 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.280 your own child, or a parent or sibling. I guess, 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.079 but something about the child or the parent is particularly 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.720 difficult for me to process. Arresting him at the funeral 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.720 is just particularly six scenario. And you know, but it 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.280 goes on all the time, right, It's like, what are 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.800 the authorities kicking people's doors allegedly looking for drugs? If 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.280 you're looking for drugs, why not wait till somebody emerges 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.240 from the house in the morning and arrest them. Then 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.360 you know. But it's all it's all just backwards, and 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.720 it's all designed for maximum cruelty and abuse. That's the 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.920 system that we're in, and he unfortunately caught the very 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.200 worst of all of it. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.280 I wanted Flohm's seasoned opinion to weigh in on the 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.600 one I was finally ready to voice. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:10.280 The letter. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.640 Honestly, it's like you take an overlay, and all the 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:19.760 missing puzzle pieces just materialized and you could see for 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.960 the first time the clear picture, and it just makes 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.920 the whole thing that much more tragic. Actually, on so 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:27.760 many levels. 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:29.000 Jason. 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.200 You have the defense theory, which didn't make sense because 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.120 they wanted to believe the reason why he couldn't remember 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.880 anything was dissociative amnesia, and that he was in the 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:45.640 car when the kids were shot, and that he rolled 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.880 forward in kind of a frozen state, and that he 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.400 sat back into her blood. None of that made sense. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:57.000 But the prosecution's theory made no more sense, and it 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:01.360 wasn't until you get his letter and you realize that 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.320 he was behind the car, heard this explosion inside the car, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.840 that as he was opening the driver's side she shot 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.880 him once, tried to get back in, she shot again, 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.440 and then shot herself. So when he sat back down 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.440 into the driver's seat and turned around to check on 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.640 the kids, her blood was all over his back, but 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.000 her body was also slumped, and in his panic, he thought, 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.200 I'll drive to go get help, and in doing so, 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.840 he tried to pull her belt which she had taken off, 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:40.840 and his blood from his wounded left wrist was all 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.440 over the belt, and his hands were shaking so much 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.040 while he was trying to buckle her in because she 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:51.120 was also blocking that buckle, that the blood pooled on 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.400 the council and then he gave up because he was shaking, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:59.120 and it retracted and went back and he got out 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.520 of the car. But that's why none of his blood 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.320 is on the exterior perimeter back or front of the car. 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.400 If he had shot her, there would have been blood 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.640 all over him and he would have had to have 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:17.000 walked around. And it wasn't until Chris wrote the letter 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.000 which I had shared with you, that I started this 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:27.359 thinking what if he were innocent? And now I sincerely 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:34.239 feel he is. Chris Vaughn allowed himself to be convicted. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:44.080 He was incapable or unwilling for fourteen years to adequately 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:49.640 defend himself. In many levels, it's just this perfect storm 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:56.920 of tunnel vision, confirmation, bias, character assassination, and then blood 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:03.000 splatter evidence, which it's this interpretive science, which is like 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:18.920 reading an ink block. Blood spatter expert Paul Kish was 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.280 utilized by the prosecution to contend that the blood spatter 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.720 evidence did not conform with Vaughn having left the vehicle 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.199 before his wife was shot, due to the presence of 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.240 his blood on the seat belt console and droplets on 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:36.360 the passenger side. Obviously, Kish wasn't privy to Bond's latest revelations, 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.400 but even at the time of the trial, Kish conceded 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.760 that he couldn't rule out murder suicide based on the 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.439 blood evidence either. Here again is Jason Flamm. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.880 Let's talk about blood spatter because I think people watch Dexter, 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.639 they watch CSI or whatever they watch, and they have 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:03.240 this totally unrealistic view. Because the National Academy of Sciences, right, 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.400 the real thing, right, the people who we should hold 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:11.200 in the highest regard, in two thousand and nine did 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:16.360 a very intensive study real scientific integrity, and they were 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.399 extremely critical of a number of the junk sciences. But 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.080 I think they saved some of their strongest words for 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.280 blood spatter, and among other things, that this blood spatter 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.520 analysis is more subjective than substantive. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.639 It's whatever you want to say, and it can be 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:40.000 used to prove whatever you want to prove given most scenarios. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.119 No, you're absolutely right. It is the probably the worst 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.720 of all the junk sciences, and to call it a 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.200 science is ridiculous. Right, you can take a forty hour 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:55.399 course to become a bloodstained pattern analyst and then you 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.560 can actually go and testify in court. It's ridiculous. It's 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.240 absurd because the people are getting up and testifying as 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.840 experts forty hours. What can you learn in forty hours. 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:12.119 Almost nothing. There's nothing scientific about it. It's foolishness, that's 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.160 what it is, except for the fact that the consequences 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.560 are so extremely serious and real. So that should have 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:21.560 been the end of it. It should never have been 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:26.520 used again after that was made clear. But again the 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.119 courts fall back on themselves and the system protects itself. 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.480 It doesn't protect the people. It doesn't work for the 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.600 Chris Bonds, it doesn't work for any of the people 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.720 it's supposed to work for, which are the people whose 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:45.399 lives are in the hands of the system that is 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:50.080 supposed to protect their rights and all of our rights. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.919 And once once it starts down a road and that 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.440 television sets in, as you said, Lauren, they will find 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.280 ways to railroad you and they just put these blinders 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.440 on and it doesn't matter. And as I was listening 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.439 to you talk, it occurred to me that Chris is 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.200 exactly the person that we were referencing a few minutes ago, right, 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.760 because he didn't believe that he could be wrongfully convicted, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.240 which is why he didn't really mount the defense. First 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.439 of all, this poor guy's just lost his entire family. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.919 He's just seen his entire family dead in front of 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.560 his eyes. Right, he saw his kids murdered like seconds earlier, 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.240 bleeding to death whatever the backseat of his car, and 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.080 then his wife. Now grant that he wasn't badly hurt, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.920 but I've never been shot. I'm sure it's kind of traumatic. 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.280 To be shot twice and then find your family dead 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.320 is something nobody should ever have to go through. And 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.600 it's unbelievable to even imagine what the hell. And it's 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.880 also disgusting for us to think that we know how 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.600 someone should or should not act that has been through that. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.400 And yeah, you're right, he was on his demeanor. He 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.040 didn't act the way he should. I think that he 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.480 didn't want to implicate his wife because he felt guilt 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:14.720 that he thought that his actions drove her to do 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.480 something so horrific and out of character. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.200 And you know, in my view, he's guilty of being 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:23.840 maybe not the best husband. But I'm not going to 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:25.679 sit there and judge him, and I would say that 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.160 no one else really should either. We don't know what 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.480 was going on in their relationship or in their home, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.600 and that is also not a crime. It might be 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.280 a moral failing, but it's not a crime. And also 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.160 that I think he was in a certain way protecting 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:41.800 the reputation of the woman that he had been married to. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:47.240 But this also reminds me, Lauren of, in a certain way, 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.440 the case that we covered on wrongful Conviction, the Larry 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.760 Delile case, right where Larry was in his car with 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.919 his four kids and his wife, gas pedal jammed and 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.400 the car went screaming into the river off a dock, 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.080 and he and his wife I don't think they could swim, 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.680 but they managed to get out, and the kids were 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:13.080 tragically drowned. And then started this narrative where he's not 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.679 emotional enough, the press is stalking him at his house. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.280 He's they were sitting outside, he and his wife having 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.240 an iced t or a beer or something. Now, he 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.919 was on a lot of medications after this. He was 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.680 taking so many pills to try to deal with this 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.000 unimaginable trauma. But they wanted to believe what they wanted 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.800 to believe, and I think in that case, people couldn't 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:42.919 process the idea that this car could have malfunctioned in 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.480 such a way with such awful consequences. So even when 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.879 the evidence emerged that is in fact exactly what happened, 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.199 and even when it became clear that one hundred and 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.840 seventeen I think other cars of this exact same make 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.879 and model had been recalled because the accelerator jammed. And 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.639 even though his wife said the accelerator jammed, the story 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:03.600 got out there in the media that he had confessed. 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:08.200 That's debatable, but Larry is still in prison now thirty 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:12.199 I think it was nineteen eighty nine. So yeah, this 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.800 unfortunately is going back to what your question from earlier. 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:21.480 This is terribly, terribly common, and we need to overhaul 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:25.160 the system. And you know, Lady Justice, with the scales, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.080 it's not a realistic depiction at all of our system. Yeah. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.560 I know, this concept that justice is blind. 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.520 I think it's deaf, and it's interesting as it relates 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.760 to this case, right to the advant case, because you know, 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.560 another thing that I think is really not in the 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:50.000 public consciousness is that science and justice are practically opposite. 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:50.440 Right. 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:57.600 Science is based on the analysis of data and information 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:02.480 that is processed in a way that is scientific, and 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:08.200 justice is based on precedent. Right. So while science moves forward, 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:13.560 justice looks backward. And some of these junk sciences are 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.520 similar in certain ways, right, just as with bitemark evidence. 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.600 And so what I mean by that is a judge 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:26.040 will look at a case and say, well, there's another 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.280 court that ruled that bite marks are okay. Even though 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:33.359 you have a huge body of evidence that you've just 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.400 presented that shows that bite marks are as unscientific as 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.000 could be, I'm going to allow it because another court 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:46.840 allowed it. Justice should be about making sure that, whilst 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.960 mistakes will always be made, that we minimize those mistakes, 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.360 and that people who don't do their jobs. And that 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:56.439 extends to the defense bar as well. If you have 0:24:56.520 --> 0:25:01.520 a defender public or private who shows up drunk or 0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:04.080 doesn't mount any defense re client, or is corrupt in 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:06.600 any way, they should be disbarred, just like an other 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:10.200 profession's and it almost never happens on the other side. 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:14.639 On the prosecution side, we know that police and prosecutors 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:19.760 lie with impunity, as do Unfortunately many forensic examiners. They 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.399 either lie or they just don't know what they're talking about. 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:26.240 And while there are many cases worthy of Jason's help, 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:30.320 he agreed to explore whether Vaughn's was worthy of re examination. 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:36.960 That's unbelievable. Yeah, Kafka meets Victor Hugo in the worst 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:43.720 possible ways, and I feel, as you do, compelled to 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:45.200 want to help him. 0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:49.040 Next, I LinkedIn with Bill Clutter to discuss more details 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:49.760 about the case. 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:54.160 Sergeant Gary Lawson had already formed an opinion from day 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:59.600 one that Chris Vaughn committed the murder of his wife 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:04.159 and three kids. Sergeant Lawson's theory just conflicted with the 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:09.760 ballistic evidence. We conducted our own examination of the Ford expedition, 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:16.160 and Tom Bevell, our bloodstained expert, notices that in the 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:20.320 back of the Ford Expedition, behind where the children were seated, 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:23.320 there's a third seat and there was a bullet lodged, 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:27.680 and so he asked to get a doll rod. He 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:31.760