WEBVTT - The Problem of Deradicalization 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.719 What's terrible my me? This is it could happen here 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.920 a podcast about collapse, and that's appropriate because everyone's faith 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.960 in me as a colleague has collapsed today as the 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.880 result of a series of horrific cluster fox On my part, 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.000 I'm late to the meeting. I accidentally left the meeting 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.439 when they started recording. Just a just a complete fucking 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.560 ship show. Speaking of ship shows, my co host Garrison Davis, 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.959 how are you, Garrison. I'm the one that saved this. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.240 I had to send the guest to the zoom call. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.880 I know. I'm not even supposed to be on this call. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.120 No you're not. You're not even supposed to be working today. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.200 That's not true. Well but you're not on this call, 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.680 not on this call. But here I am saving. This 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:49.839 is enough. This is enough, Woody Banter. This is a 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:55.720 daily podcast, and now let's bring on our guest for today, 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:02.560 monsignor Alex new House. Alex, how are you doing. I'm 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.760 doing well. Thanks for having me. I feel like I 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.600 was pulled in off the street, just like bundled into 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.880 a van and then yeah, yeah, we uh. You know 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.880 how people used to get like shanghaied, like like captured 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.200 by allegedly allegedly and forced to work on on on 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:20.800 boats in like San Francisco and whatnot. We do that 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.440 with podcasts. I mean that is actually most of what 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.000 I've done to the people who work on your podcast. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.600 I think I think I've had everyone from your show 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.960 on our show now, and it has been very much 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.640 like I'm just pulling them on a string. Speaking of which, Alex, 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:36.720 you are one of the hosts of the Terrorism Is 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:43.120 Bad podcast, a very uh controversially named podcast. Uh. And 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.319 you work at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.680 Monterey Center of Terrorism, Extremism and counter Terrorism Center on 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.600 not not of that would be a different center, very important, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.760 very important. Yeah, and we're not we're not bringing you 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.760 on to talk about how to make explosively formed penetrators. 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.720 Not that not this time. That is someone else. Yeah, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:09.360 but you are also you were also a actual games journalist. Yes, yeah, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.080 I got my start in this weird space. How do 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.600 you gamer gate? How do you feel about ethics in 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:24.320 the game journalism industry? Alex uh, always been fine, Like yeah, alright, anyway, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.679 that's the end of that. Yeah, I do want to 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.519 actually start there, Alex, because you and I both have 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.520 something in common, which is that we we've got our 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.000 start writing in a field that's wildly different from consulting 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:40.280 with like governments on terrorism. Like for me, it was 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.320 I wanted to write like Dick jokes on the Internet 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.840 and I just like stumbled into a bunch of ices 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.640 propaganda that most people weren't aware of and and that 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.560 started me like lecturing at universities and ship And for 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:53.240 you it was gamer Gates. I'm interested in kind of 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.160 you telling your story a little bit to start us off. Yeah, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.320 so I was. I was during undergrad I entered every 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.320 summer at game Spot video game website you may have 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.640 heard of. It's one of the two big ones along 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.519 with I g n UM. And when I was doing that, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:11.680 I was so this was like right in the at 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.880 the beginning stages of of gamer Gate really popping off. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.560 And what ended up happening is a lot of the 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:19.840 people I worked with, a lot of my colleagues and 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.600 friends were just in the blast zone. They were just 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.200 targeted by the absolute onslought of of harassment UM and 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.080 I just had a curiosity started looking into some of 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.880 those people who were who are targeting my friends and colleagues, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:34.400 and it ended up being a lot of the people 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.680 that were still talking about today. Uh you know, it 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.440 all all rolls back up to the bright bart metropolitan area, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.760 if you will. And um, I don't know what a 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.640 uh the thing that made me want to I mean, 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.120 obviously I've been aware of you work for well, the 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:50.840 thing that maybe want to specifically bring you on as 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.200 you started on a new project to create like a 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.000 video game that that will hopefully have an ability to 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.920 help like de radicalize people. And I'm I'm not entirely 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:01.880 certain like of the details of the project, but I 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.200 think it's a fascinating project because as as you know 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.840 all too well, a lot of this stuff started in gaming, 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.000 not as a result of anything specifically about gaming, but 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.920 the kind of like socialization that occurs in those spaces 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.000 and the kind of like different communities. And it's been 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.320 like we have going back to the nineties evidence of 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.400 like different Nazi groups on the early Internet, like talking 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.640 about like these are specific specific groups and subcultures that 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.919 you know will have an easier time radicalizing and whatnot. 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.039 But yeah, I'm interested in kind of what actually is 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.880 going on with this project, um, And and how you 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:35.719 think it's going to look at this stage. I understand 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.640 it's pretty early in development right now, so I'm not 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.960 expecting like, you know, an E three walkthrough. Yeah, our 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.480 E three size life and I wish we had that. Um. Yeah. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.440 We won a grant from DHS and FEMA their their 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.960 Tears and Prevention Grant program this year. We just got 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.720 awarded it like literally two weeks ago, so I have 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.400 not even started work on it at all. But the 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.680 project will be a laboration between my center and a 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.800 nonprofit games development company called the Eye Thrive Foundation. And 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.680 basically what we are going to do is like build 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:14.120 digital scenarios, digital narratives that can be engaged with UH 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.480 within classroom settings. So we're targeting high schools for rolling 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.760 this out UH, and the idea is that we're going 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.960 to give students the ability to take on roles that 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.760 empower them to better understand how extremism and radicalization work 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.680 as mechanisms, which will hopefully the idea is that it 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.080 will it will improve resilience and you know, civil integrity 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.800 and all those fun buzzwords within within high school communities. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.359 So we're not necessarily trying to de radicalize already radicalize people. 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.040 But we're really trying to build community awareness, community resilience 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.320 to to radicalization pathways. I mean, this is something I 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.000 think about constantly because I get asked this a lot. 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:52.920 You know, I'll get I'll get emailed questions from people, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:54.880 sometimes as much detail as like, hey, I'm like a 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.599 teacher and here's some things this could in my classes said, 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.120 or something he put in an essay, and like, I'm 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.320 growing really concerned earned about him, and like, I what 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.600 do I do? And my usual answer is, you know, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.640 there's a couple of people who I respect that I'll 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.160 try to direct them to, but I I don't. I'm 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.240 pretty good at how people get radicalized. It's something I 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.200 spent a lot of time studying. I don't know how 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.600 how you I have trouble figuring out how to break 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.880 down these pathways because like, right, the the default for 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:23.160 a lot of people and for a lot of time 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.520 has been will you d platform? Right? You um, you 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.440 get them off of whatever. And there's there's I do 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.200 certainly think there's there's utility in that, but there's also 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.880 you know, the toothpaste tube effect, the fact that when 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.080 you you squash these popular areas where they're able to 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.680 spread them, they filter off into increasingly isolated communities that 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.320 develop new terms, they find out ways to hide it, 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.000 and that actually increases you know, it may it may 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.560 reduce the number of people who get radicalized, but the 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.480 people who remain just get more and more extreme because 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.880 they're even more isolated from you know, everyone else. And 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.560 I don't know, how do you how do you how 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.760 do you break that that radicalization and cycle? Like, how 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.000 do you how do you stop that ship before it gets, 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.400 you know, to a tipping point? Yeah, I mean, in general, 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.640 I'm with you, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.680 de radicalization strategies. Uh. And it's it's like an incredibly 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.840 difficult task to to pull someone out who's already going 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.120 down these pathways. And then, like you said, it's also 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.080 an incredibly difficult task to make sure that when you 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:25.040 are disrupting the radicalization networks that they aren't just disappearing 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.160 off to some other corner of the Internet, which we 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.280 know they're doing. Like one of the reasons why we're 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.400 we're working with a video game video game company is 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.640 over the last few years, we've noticed a big migration 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:40.400 into video game platforms especially big social based video game 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.960 platforms like Roadblocks and Minecraft, which are like not even 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.679 remotely prepared to deal with you know, very well developed 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.760 sophisticated radicalization networks. They have moved over there both for 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:57.880 organization and radicalization reasons, um, since mainstream companies have started 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.640 taking more of an interest in de platforming them. Uh 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.320 And so we're ending up like pretty wildly unprepared for 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.440 this sudden onslought of extremists being right in front of 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.920 kids as they're playing games or you know, teenagers or 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.360 even young adults. So our idea essentially is to use 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.640 that language, the same language that extremists are trying to 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.600 adopt the structures of video games three via the sort 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:26.640 of interactivity there, to better communicate, uh, the the impacts 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.320 of extremism, what it looks like, how to identify it, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.880 and hopefully how to avoid getting you know, falling into 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.240 the traps that are laid uh for for unsuspecting people. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.680 One of the issues and I'm curiously thoughts on this 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.760 because we we we talk a lot about, Like I 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.199 think people have become increasingly aware of how bad Facebook 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.480 in particulars is a problem with this. It's it's really 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.960 well real a lot of the boogaloo movement to and 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.120 now this stuff is coming out about like the data 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.480 Facebook has had on just and this isn't this isn't 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.920 this is adjacent to radicalization. Um, the mental impact that 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.680 it's been having on teenagers right like the just how 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.800 bad it is for people, And UM, I'm wondering, like 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.360 how do you scale this stuff? I guess is the question, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.679 like how do you actually how do you make the 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.880 social internet less dangerous? Yeah, I mean that's that's going 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.880 to be extremely tough. And we are even starting very 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.400 very small, like we're building we're building on a narrative 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.880 platform to target three high schools right now. Um. But 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.719 the hope is that ultimately what we can do is 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.760 build a tool set and and a platform, like literally 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.760 a game platform that can be used by high school 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.880 teachers in high school classes throughout the country or throughout 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.120 the world. Um. The idea will be to hopefully make 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.960 a new sort of package of different methods and interactive 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.560 experiences that can be reused into the future. But it 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.280 is one of the big open questions that we will 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.679 hopefully come to some sort of answer for throughout the 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.720 project about how do we actually scale us up UM. 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.800 But you know, in general, it is again like one 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.920 of the biggest open questions right now. One of the 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:06.959 reasons why I's so skeptical of a lot of d 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.320 RAD and CBE techniques is they try to go for 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.040 scale about effectiveness UM, when in reality, one of the 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.520 best and only de radicalization pathways that we know of 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.800 involves people that you know and I know going out 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.480 and meeting with these people one on one and having intensive, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:29.080 frequent communications with them. So UM, there's as far as 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:30.679 we know, there's not a good answer right now. This 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.880 is a huge place of research right now because we 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.560 should just straight up do not understand how to scale 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.839 up UM radicalization, prevention and de radicalization. I mean, and 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.400 you know what you're trying to do, And like, reaching 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.280 kids in high school in something that's meant they're meant 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.960 to be consuming while they're in school is even such 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.640 an additional challenge because I think you and I are 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.880 both young enough to at least remember that like almost 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.760 nothing that you put before kids in that context in 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.400 a school gets through. I can I I can think 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.760 about like anti drug programs and stuff when I was 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.720 a kid, and how ineffective they were. There was I 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.360 had one one effective anti drug like speech by a 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.920 teacher and it was just a teacher who whose son 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.040 was part of this this there was this one night 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.199 and plane where like six kids indeed on heroin. It 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.160 was there was big Rolling Stone article about it was 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.199 a very famous moment, and her son was one of 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.400 the kids who nearly died and she was and she 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.480 like just explained like physically what happened to him and 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:26.880 begged us not to do heroin. And that actually did 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.600 stick with me. I've never never shot up anything, um, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.600 but you know, like the a lot of it doesn't work. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.080 And I think part of why it's this thing I 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.520 talked about when I tried to explain like why isis 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.160 propaganda was so effective, it's the it feels more authentic 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.520 than the than the counter narrative, right, the counter narrative 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.440 because it's it's usually focus grouped. It's coming as the 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.640 result of like some sort of government initiative, a bunch 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.000 of people worked intogether. It feels focus grouped as opposed 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.480 to there's something inherently more compelling about something that just 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.200 like feels like somebody who really gave a ship cares 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.280 a lot put this thing together, even if it's terrible. 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.800 And I that strikes me as a really because if 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.800 you're going to be scaling something and trying to reach 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.200 a lot of people, it's going to have to be 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.000 something that is put together at scale by an organization. 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.600 And how do you I mean, I know this must 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.120 be on your mind as you're trying to figure out 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:18.800 how to craft this thing. I'm just interested in your 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.680 thoughts on that. Really, Yeah, I mean that exact challenge 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.400 challenges what led us to proposing the project project that 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.400 we are so the idea behind it or the the 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.480 impetus behind what we did what we proposed is, um, 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.640 the exact problem of students just don't listen to people 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.920 in whether that's anti drug programs or anything like that. Often, 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.600 my uh my uh feeling about it is they are 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.160 often resistant to it because it's very negative. It's very 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.280 don't do this, don't do this. I'm setting up boundaries 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.320 for for kids and ano listens to act within. It's 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.640 all very declaratory, very you know, commanding. Um, there's no 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.400 there's no sense of treating kids like people who have control, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.440 who have interests, who have motivations. It's all attempting to 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.440 restrict them. And so the idea is that we're going 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.000 to attempt to build a game platform that actually empower 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.760 students to operate within roles that have control, that that 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.880 have something to say, to give them voices, to give 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.040 them UM and that sort of feeling of being an 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.400 established UM person within a within a certain scenario. UM. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.040 The way that I've been thinking about it is that 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.360 we're basically merging video games with like the structure of 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.240 a model you in conference or something like that hopefully 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.480 will be a little less nerdy than the model un conferences. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.520 But that's the idea of giving people power to make decisions, uh, 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:47.160 and and treat them like actual, you know, operating humans. Yeah, 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.880 I uh. I'm wondering do you have any kind of 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.800 models that you're looking at when you think of like 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.480 something that you see is is kind of worth I 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.640 don't emulating maybe the wrong word, but like, oh, these 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.960 people I think got it right and and this was effective, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.800 Like or is this really a situation where you feel 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.240 like we're kind of in the fucking wilderness here. There's 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.880 not a lot of great models for what's effective. We 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.480 are very much in the wilderness. I was expecting you 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.040 to say, like, so much of c V and d 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.560 RAD work of the last ten years has been directly 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.960 towards trying to essentially recreate the like the DARE model 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.760 or the anti drug model, just in a different field. Um. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.520 And so we're going to be pulling from scenario builders 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.920 and like mad un and debate and like all of 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.240 these different models that seem to at least work to 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.040 get kids engage with like operating that sort of situation. 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.160 But it is going to be pretty I mean, at 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.040 least from what I understand, is gonna be pretty new. 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.560 We're going to be out there really flying blind for 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.600 a lot of it, um, But we will you know, 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.760 we have a pilot phase built in to try to 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.400 bay attest this with with um some of the students 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.840 were incorporating students and instructors and the actual creation devolopment stage. 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.720 So that'll be another hopefully good part of this. We'll 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.360 we'll give some students experience with the game development process, 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.480 which I think will health engage them as well. That 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.120 strikes me as a particularly good idea of like giving 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.280 and also just giving them some agency. So it's not 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.400 like this is a thing that you are forced to consume, 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.960 like this is the thing that you can like learn 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:37.920 something from. I think that's that's very important. I'm interested 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.960 in how you see how you see this because like 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.320 again we kind of both got in around the same time. 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.400 Gamer Gate is when I started paying attention to radicalization 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.080 to how do you think it's changed since then? How 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.119 do you think like the nature of of how, particularly 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.040 like younger people are being radicalized has changed. And I 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.160 guess I'm also interested because I get the feeling that 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.880 back then it was mostly younger people getting radicalized and 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.720 that's no longer the case. Just as we're talking, I 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.000 just came across the video on Twitter of a group 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.000 of anti vax protesters chasing parents and children away from 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.880 an elementary school and screaming at them that they're raping 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.720 their kids with a vaccine. So clearly the problem is expanded. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.760 But yeah, yeah, and honestly, one of the things that 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.880 keeps me up at night is when we start, if 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.240 you know, knocking movies, are able to roll this out 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.120 to more schools, we're going to run into some probably 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.920 very resistant parents who have radicalized. Yum, yeah, I mean 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:30.640 the big one is, like what you said, like the 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:36.320 radicalization demographics have vastly expanded to incorporate so many more 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.920 different types of people, so many more ages and even 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.360 ethnicities and genders. Um. But what we do know is 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.760 that the hardcore of the of the violent extremists are 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:51.920 still targeting adolescents. UM. We know, accelerationists, for instance, hang 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.960 out and try to essentially black pill a bunch of teens, 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.000 especially autistic teens, especially teens with mental health issues, UH, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.439 and bring them into a more violent, more accelerationist posture. UM. 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.040 So I mean, I think that has sort of stayed 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.960 constant throughout all of this. One of the big uh 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.639 changes has been platforms. You know, ten years ago, it 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.000 was much easier for a neo Nazi to operate openly 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:23.760 on YouTube or Facebook, but that has thankfully changed. Um. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.879 But they have spread out into like I mentioned earlier, 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.280 they've spread out into video games. They spread out into 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.520 other sorts of platforms where the social aspect isn't necessarily 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.680 the first part of the platform, but rather a secondary 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.320 aspect to it, And they try to engage UM adolescence 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.640 on their own turf on you know, in a roadblocks 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.040 game or in a in a video game forum. Out there, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.159 it's not even enough to say. It feels like the 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.680 task of reducing radicalization or or not not even mentioned, 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.439 pulling it back, just stopping the process. It feels not 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.440 just like whack a mole, but like whack a mole 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.359 when you're surrounded by moles. Um. And I guess that 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.800 is the thing that keeps me up at night the most, too, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.240 is that like the problem has gotten because of how 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.720 social media scales, I think, in large part, has gotten 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.879 so much worse than it ever was. And the I 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.560 see these crowds of adults, you know, assembling in you know, 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.080 places like Los Angeles and showing up outside of schools 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.840 to her ask people, and like, I don't know what. 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.800 I don't know what to do about that. Like part 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:37.040 of me thinks, um, part of me thinks that the 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.959 only effective long term answer is to mobilize a larger 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:46.240 number of people two show up to you know, not 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.720 necessarily confront those people, but make them make them feel outnumbered, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.920 and maybe they'll stop, and that will start a process 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.880 where they they alter their thinking. Like I'm thinking kind 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.119 of back to some aspects of the civil rights movement 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.840 here right where you would have these people show up 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.119 at schools just try to stop integration and whatnot, and 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.399 they would be opposed often by by larger groups that 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.440 they would see the size of the marches in the street. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.199 And like, I don't know, I don't even know if 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.760 it works that way anymore. Like knowing that you know, 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.080 tend to one people think your stance on vaccines is 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.160 stupid and they're willing to show up to like yell 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.120 at you if that would do anything. But I don't 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.399 know what. I don't know what's going to do. Like 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.919 I guess I'm asking you, like, can you have you 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.760 figured this out? Because I don't know what the funk 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.240 to do? Um, But it's it's it's not you can't 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.080 we can't close our obviously you're someone who's trying to 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.360 confront it directly, but we certainly can't keep ourselves like 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.000 just pretend it's not going to get worse, right, No, totally, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.399 And um, you know, I often feel like it's almost 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.320 too far gone. And you know, frequently I worry that 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.960 we've already passed some sort of you know, part of 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.719 the return on rodo causation exploitation of social media. But 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.200 one of the other things I've also recognized is that 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.200 when you're in a space that is dedicated to one 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:06.360 type of confronting one one method of confronting extremism, very 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.639 often they will forget about, or d prioritize, or or 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:15.520 even ignore the other types, the other methods. And one 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.360 of the tasks before us, I think, before we throw 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.640 up our hands and give up, is trying to tie 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.879 together all the different facets of resisting extremism, from the 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.400 hardcore confrontational doxing and showing up in the streets counterprotesting, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.080 which I think is an essential part of it, to 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:34.720 UM working as hard as we can to try to 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.359 get tech companies to to realize what's going on UH, 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.640 and then also on the educational side, like what we're 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.439 doing with this with this project UM. Some of the 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:45.280 things that make me at least a little bit optimistic 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:50.360 is that there is obviously inertia, both intentional and unintentional 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.120 at tech companies, but frankly, they are still extremely far 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.520 behind in understanding how to even do D platforming on 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.359 their platforms, how to even identify who t D platform like, 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.400 the majority of tech companies are still making conto moderation 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:09.840 decisions on a piece by piece basis specifically looking at content. 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.800 Very few of them are doing actor analysis, very few 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.919 of them are doing secial network analysis. Very few of 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.880 them are looking at even the links between like off 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:23.160 platform violence and on platform content, Like it's the They 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.520 are still very much in the stone ages when it 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.320 comes to contom moderation. And that's so so key when 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.160