WEBVTT - Satanic Panic 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:14.240 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.880 My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm Christian Seger guest 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.599 toasting Yes Christians, filling in for Julie. She's on a 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.680 vacation this week, and uh, she took this opportunity to 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.960 dive into a couple of darker topics. We talked about 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.120 Gromore's and in this episode we're talking about a little 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.480 thing called Satanic panic. And uh, I feel I feel 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:39.040 like depending on where our listeners are in terms of 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.880 of age and the geographical location, they're gonna have varying 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:47.640 levels of of intersection with this topic. Based on our 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:52.800 previous conversations, I believe we both have varying degrees of 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.520 contact with the Satanic panic of the nineteen eighties, especially 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.160 time in which there was a lot of moral panic 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:06.080 and outrage over the perceived threat of secret Satanic cults, 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.360 which sounds crazy. It may sound crazy to you, but 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.400 this was a very real atmosphere. Yeah, I mean, the 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.520 peak of Satanic panic was between nineteen eighty five and 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.400 around nineteen two, although I think you can probably trace 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.800 it even a little further back into the late seventies probably, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:27.640 and that for me, I'm thirty seven, I'm about to 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.600 be thirty eight, So I grew up that was the 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.240 period of time when I was growing up. You know. Okay, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.400 well we're the same age, so okay, yeah, so so yeah, 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.600 Like I was in elementary school while this was going on, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.559 and it was a it was something that my parents 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.760 weren't necessarily as afraid of it, but I had friends 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.520 whose parents were afraid of it. Uh, And then um, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:52.600 we talked about this off air. But I had an 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.120 experience where for a year I had to go to 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.200 a private religious school and there was a lot of 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.200 Satanic panic within this school, and in particular about demon 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.960 possession and being the need to be exercised or even Uh. 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.160 We had a classmate who was ostracized by our teacher 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.560 because he was purported to be possessed by the devil. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.360 Oh wow, I mean I I definitely grew up as 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.679 well in a in a family environment where a lot 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.560 of there wasn't a lot of of of emphasis on 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.320 satanic panic. It wasn't really a thing in my family. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.040 But would go to church and you would you would 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.679 hear about the thread or read about the thread in 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.080 various youth of publications that were that were aimed at 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.080 us about the dangers of say, horror literature, about of 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.840 course heavy metal music, and and then there were I 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.160 remember also having having friends who were really heavily involved 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.400 in our youth group and being at a youth coffee 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.079 house and being asked to come into a back room 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.760 to sit in on an exorcism. Uh. You know, it 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.119 was this whole atmosphere, uh, you know, it was especially 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:02.200 attractive to teens in which these these demonic forces were real. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.440 There was this there's this war between the forces of 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.359 good and the forces of evil, and your soul, your 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.120 mind is kind of the battle ground. Yeah, and and 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.720 it's satanic panic are also you know what what the 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:22.320 claimed practices are generally termed under the phrase satanic ritual 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.720 abuse UM or s r A. For sure, we might 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.799 say that throughout the podcast. But there there was this 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:35.000 mm hmmm uh sort of chaos about the general chaos 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.600 about growing up as a human being in the world, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.680 especially as an adolescent, when you're trying to figure things out, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:42.640 you're trying to make sense of the world, and then 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.360 along comes this narrative that's basically like you are at 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.480 the center of this and either um, these underground mysterious 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.840 heavy metal cults can transform your soul into into darkness, 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.680 or you you can be guarded and uh you know, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.400 come out on the side of right business. Uh and 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.120 it you know, it sounds silly, it sounds very um 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.600 black and white. Um, but yeah, having lived through it, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.120 like it's especially like going back and then doing the 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.280 research on this and being like, oh, yeah, I remember 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.840 when that happened. And but but but my little ten 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.320 year old brain, you know, seven couldn't couldn't exactly make 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.400 sense of it, you know. Uh, yeah, it's just some 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:35.400 fascinating stuff. But largely satanic panic was a combination of that. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.440 There was this idea of repressed memories being brought back, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.960 and a lot of these repressed memories were supposedly of 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:50.480 interactions or torture within satanic underground organizations. There's secret organizations 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.440 that are worshiping the devil and as part of their rights, 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:59.039 they are abusing, often sexually, very young children, and that 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.800 that is sort of where the moral panic comes in. 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.839 That gets everyone involved, at least in the children. Yeah. 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.520 The again, the this is kind of ironic as I 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.440 wrote a comic book called this But Think of the 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.839 Children as where you always they always comes back to 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.320 these moral panics, is that something is going wrong with 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.160 the children. And in this particular case, it was actually 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.200 true in a lot of these incidents that there were 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.359 children that were being physically abused and sexually abused. But 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:30.240 there has not been by and large evidence that there 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.400 ever was an underground Satanic network or cult that was 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.279 operating and performing these these acts. Yeah. I mean, certainly 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.000 there are there their individuals out there that self identify 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.760 as Satanists, but Fatanist of the type that are vilified 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.600 in Satanic panic. Uh, And in this movement, they never existed, 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.640 and that's something that's key to teep in mind. But 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.160 that's one of the things that's so fascinating about it 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.560 is that there is no actual religious group that this 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.920 is Bay surround. It's all based on on hearsay and 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.320 myth making and fear. Yeah, and it's um that myth 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.320 making largely came out of media sensationalism in the eighties too, 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:16.880 And in particular, there was one hallmark that we both 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.280 watched and kind of kind of went back to, which 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:24.440 was Horaldo Rivera and had a uh an expose that 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.960 was called where is it the title of this thing, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.920 uh Devil Worship, exposing Satan's underground And it was this 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:39.039 two hour talk show that he did, interspersed with various 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.560 you know, on the scene reports of Heraldo talking to 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.560 victims of Satanic ritual abuse. But then in the studio 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.480 he was talking to Ozzy Osbourne via satellite. And then 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.599 he had um a Catholic priest on stage, and he 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.440 had members of the Church of Satan Anton LaVey's Church 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.440 of Satan, not to be confused with the Satanic Panic 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:04.080 Satanist cults that we are supposedly operating. Uh FBI agents 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.880 were in the room or on stage who were supposedly, 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:13.720 you know, tracking down these underground cults uh it rewatching it. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.960 I expected to be very skeptical, and instead I found 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.400 myself saying, Okay, I know about this. I know that 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:26.080 this is largely a a moral hysteria that happened thirty 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.080 years ago, but it's compelling. I could see why people 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.760 fell for it at the time, and we're you know, 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.200 deeply concerned. Um so, yeah, it's just really interesting. But 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:42.080 so ultimately Satanic ritual abuse falls under the following claimed 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.080 practices that were being acted out by these groups. Supposedly, uh, 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:50.200 there was human sacrifice, sexual depravity make of that what 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.600 you will, or perversion uh, and that these were actual 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.200 statistics that the law enforcement officials were throwing out. Fifty 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.680 thousand or more people were eyeing a year in the 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:06.120 United States of America from Satanic ritual abuse, supposedly, and 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.840 uh during their torture or murders, they were forced to 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.880 consume urine or feces or blood. And there's just you know, 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.480 basically anything that you can think of as being like 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:21.440 depraved acts were placed upon uh at the at the 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.640 foot of these mythological groups. I mean, I don't know 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.880 if mythological is the right term to use here, but 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:33.640 they were fantastic. Yeah. And it's it's interesting when you 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.079 start looking back, um through history, like how we got 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.440 to this point because I kind of think given in 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.080 terms of of a bonfire, right um, in which you 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.600 have all this kindling that's built up and it gets 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.240 it's to the point where you all you need is 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.160 that additional spark to to really just send it ablaze, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.440 and the spark being of course, threats a threat, a 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.120 threat to the children or you know, a threat to 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.880 you know, a real personal threat to yourself. Now, if 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:01.800 you you go back far enough in time, you'll find 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.240 plenty of accounts of for instance, blood Libel fourteen seventy 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.600 five assignment of print blood Libel, in which an entire 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.880 Jewish community was tortured over the death of a two 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.520 year old Christian boy. There were, you know, the claim 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.160 being that there was a ritual murder of the child. Um. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.560 You can you can find parallels and uh in which 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.800 hunts and which person persecutions throughout time. But when you're 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.360 looking particularly at the twentieth century. Um, there's a historian 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.800 by the name of Philip Jenkins who wrote a fabulous 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.480 piece called Satanism and Ritual Abuse. And this is collected 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.439 in the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements. You believe 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.480 it's one of the last chapters in the book. Um. Yeah, 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.040 it's really interesting piece, and I think it's one of 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.640 the best things that I've read that sort of encapsulates 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.600 the whole hysteria of the time and sort of points 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:58.080 to their being similar themes within the Satanic panic hysteria 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:03.280 to the rhetorical themes that were going on with fringe 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.400 religions throughout history too. You know, there's an empathy emphasis 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.680 on protecting endangered children, as we already talked about. There's 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.839 also this idea that religions are shaped by mass media. 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.719 Yeah indeed, and um and yeah, it's the only this 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:19.480 is the only chapter in the book that deals with 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.080 a non existent religion. Like there's all deal with actual 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.400 faith and splinter groups, but this is one, as we 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.480 pointed out, never actually exists. Now you have culturally resonant 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.800 concepts of the Black Mass, ritual magic, uh, the witches, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.960 Sabbath all kind of merged together, and and just just 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.720 setting back there in the public consciousness on on top 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.640 of that, you have you have en you have tales 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:49.480 of Alistair Crawley's Black Masses and Exotic London. Uh. They 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.680 were published, they were published stories about this in the 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.800 New York World. Uh. So already you have this idea 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.559 that there are there are people out there in the 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.720 world that are engaging in these dark rights. Uh. You 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:05.360 have of ninety seven Herbert Gorman's tale The Place called Dagon, 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.120 which is a work of fiction about Satanist or Satanist 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.240 like cults that were descended from Survivors of Salem. Yeah, 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.160 this was a fascinating find for me in the research 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.840 because I am a fan of weird fiction, I'm a 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.600 fan of horror fiction, and obviously a lot of that 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.559 traces back to HP Lovecraft's work, and HP Lovecraft was 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.240 apparently influenced by this book, and it's something that I 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.640 had never heard of before. I mean, or if I did, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.880 it just never resonated with me. Yeah. Same here he 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.880 because he apparently mentions it in Supernatural Horror and Literature, 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.320 which I've read, but he throws out a lot of 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.199 authors and titles that, especially the modern reader is not 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.040 going to be deconnected with. But apparently it's a big 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:51.520 influence on on Lovecraft, Block, Henry Kuttner, Dennis Wheatley, various 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.240 other individuals who who definitely resonated at the time and 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.880 affected the weird fiction world and then the larger pulp 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.120 pop culture world to emerge from it. Yeah. And one 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.199 of Jenkins arguments in this piece is that you can 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.480 trace almost all the elements of the nineteen eighties Satanic 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.720 panic back to this nine seven story, the place called Dagon, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.000 which ultimately you know it's summarizes being like it's a 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.000 thriller that's set in western Massachusetts, which is where I'm 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:22.800 originally from. Uh, and that descendants from Salem, Massachusetts, which 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:24.800 if if you don't know, Salem is on the east 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:29.120 coast of Massachusetts. Uh, practice the you know, which is 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.640 famous for the witch trials and for for witchcraft. These 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.840 descendants moved out to Western mass and essentially we're performing 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:40.520 the same satanic rituals and and uh, you know, usage 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.199 of it actually ties back to what we talked about 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.920 in a in a previous podcast about grimoires. The the 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:51.160 idea of this sort of ritual magic being used and 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.120 in these texts being used to perform it, it's energing. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.840 Jenkins points out that by the nineteen thirties, uh, the 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.480 roots were already there fictionally, but you also saw a 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.000 few instances here and there of law enforcement actually beginning 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.200 to at least entertain the possibility of sacrificial cult activities 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.800 in some crimes. Yeah. I think that that's one of 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.360 the really interesting things that probably helped popularize it too, right, 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:22.200 is that, um, these various law enforcement officials, and I 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.880 don't think that they necessarily had malicious intent. They probably 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.320 thought that they were They had come upon, you know, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.280 actual leads in these stories. I mean, you know what 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.080 I kept thinking of when I was reading this stuff 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.520 was True Detective, the first season of True Detective, And 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.040 I was like, you could look at the first season 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:42.199 of True Detective as being about, uh, these misguided uh 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.439 police officers who think that there's a secret uh ritualistic 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.400 cult somewhere that's you know, running things and abusing children, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.120 which which ultimately you know, that's that's what that fictional 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.920 story is about. But ultimately that was the same narrative 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:00.320 that these FBI agents or police officers or whomever were, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.000 you know, kind of on the hunt because the thought 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.560 thought was going on they they wanted to be doing 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.400 their jobs basically, Yeah, because I mean, in one hand, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.719 you have this fictional world, but then you have in 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:16.040 these fictional accounts of Satanic rights. But then you also have, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.440 you know, in the back of everyone's mind this idea 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.880 that black Mass and ritual mass, magic and the witches 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.680 Sabbath was real. You have these stories, uh that that 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.000 you're you're reading about when in which there are people 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:32.360 they're self identifying as Satanist. For instance, uh, nineteen sixty six, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.520 that's when Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan, and 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.560 obviously that makes the that makes the media rounds. People 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.920 are outraged about that, even though at heart um LaVey's 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.840 Satanism was really more grounded and to a certain extant 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.120 satire and also uh cultural commentary and as well as 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.400 sort of Carney hijinks and fun. Yeah. I think like 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.360 this is one of the really important distinctions that we 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.120 should make here in the podcast that there isn't confusion 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.200 for the listeners is that the Anton Lavay Church of 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:12.600 Satan is uh an entirely different philosophy organization. They refer 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.280 to themselves as a religion. Uh, then what was even 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:21.440 being imagined as these underground Satanic cults? And to sort 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.680 of summarize it, I'm not I'm not the best at 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:29.040 Anton LaVey uh philosophy, but my takeaway from it is 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.080 that ultimately it was just about a philosophy of individualism 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.960 and that Lave's thing was that each individual as their 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.280 own God. And so they used quote unquote Satan as 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:45.600 a metaphorical expression right of of having pride in yourself 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:50.480 and being enlightened because you were your own God. Uh. 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.480 And it was ultimately about and They refer to this 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:59.320 in the Heraldo Special Rational self Interest, But you're right, 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.480 it was very a theatrical and it had like elements 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:06.000 of datas them to it. I guess that this performance 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.520 were like Llvey dresses up in these robes and has 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.360 you know, his his eyebrows waxed so that they look villainous. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.000 You know, he was playing up to it, and he 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.680 was using terms like Church of Satan or Book of 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.000 Satan in order to provoke people. But then they were 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.440 sort of appropriated again, uh for this this panic about 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.040 Satanic ritual abuse, and we're often conflated. It's really fascinating 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.720 when you watch that Heraldo Special to see members of 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.560 his church. I think at the time Love was dead, 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.080 but like his daughter and another member of his church 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.240 who at the time was an army colonel. We're on 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.720 stage and answering Horaldo's questions, basically trying to say, you 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.840 know what we're talking about here, that they're completely two 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.880 separate things. This, you know, Church of Satan is a 0:16:54.360 --> 0:17:03.120 ironic performance philosophy piece essentially, whereas like the the accusations 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.800 of ritual abuse had nothing to do with them rights. 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.280 It is interesting that they were kind of dude to 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.639 a certain extent, they were riding the wave of of 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.320 the the the sort of Satanic culture, if you will, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.119 but then also end up falling falling into the trap 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.560 of satanic panic as well, because you had, of course 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:27.560 satanic elements in rock music, you had satanic exploitation cinema 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.560 that you know, really came into its own, especially in 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.080 the nineties seventies, UM. And then on the other side, 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.200 and do you also have some real life stuff that's happening, 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:43.080 uh that that either has overt shades of Satanic culture 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:48.560 to it or some some you know, more subliminal content, 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.919 or even just media shades cast on it, such as 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.560 Charles Manson, right right, Yeah, So Charles Manson obviously, you know, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.280 associated himself with quote the Devil or Satan, even in 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.240 a looser fashion, I would say that Anton Leavey did, 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.440 and again I suspect Charles Manson. For Charles Manson, it 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.960 was largely theatrical purposes. I believe that he had a 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.000 quote where he said Satan and Christ will come together 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.639 at the end of the world to judge humanity, and 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.320 he is actually in that Haraldo special he had I 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.880 think Carldo had done like a previous special year earlier 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.040 murder where he'd gone and visited Charles Manson interviewed him, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.480 and he's like, you can't even like gather any kind 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.640 of coherence from their conversation because Manson is just rambling 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.720 the whole time. But uh, but Haraldo is able to 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.280 kind of take that and manipulate it through edits and 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.199 footage to seem like he's at the heart of the 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.760 Satanic virtual abuse. And in around nineteen seven you see 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.080 child abuse really becoming a trending topic in the media 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.520 with years of media expose is to follow on child murder, 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.920 child pornography, kidnapping very much. Though you know the stranger 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:03.840 danger elment of of moral panic um that that really, 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.640 I mean existed before the Satanic panic and survived well 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.399 after connoones to survive in many many ways. Yeah, and 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.280 I mean, you know, it's understandable now to look back 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.040 on it and to see why parents are probably terrified 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.639 at the time. You see real life things like the 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:24.040 Jonestown incident happened, where there's a massacre that included many 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.520 children that were killed by a cultist activity, and so 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.000 that really takes on a prominent role in the media 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.520 coverage of threats to children and in this this case, 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.399 religiously themed threats to children. Uh. Then of course you 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:40.520 have you have other murderers who end up taking elements 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.680 from this moral outrage and incorporating it, incorporating it into 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.760 their their crimes, or at least there uh the way 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.560 they end up talking about their crimes after the fact. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:56.920 Richard Ramire's the night stalker murderer between of eighty five. Um, yeah, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.280 he was. He was certainly more overt in it than 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.760 Charles Manson. He would mention Satan during his crimes. His 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.159 first court appearance, he shows up with a pentagram drawing 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.119 on his hand and he yells, Hail Satan. Uh. And 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.320 of course that's just that just throws more kindling on 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.520 the fire, this idea that there there's a danger here 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.760 with with the with satanic individuals and they want to 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.200 hurt us. And then there's this there's a danger president 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:27.360 culture for our children. Yeah, sort of that behind the scenes, 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.920 that there there's a Richard Ramirez or a Charles Manson. Uh, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.840 you know, they could be anywhere. Basically, it's it's sort 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.359 of an invasion of the body snatchers all over again. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.120 You know, it's this idea that anybody could be part 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.960 of these networks, anybody uh could lure your children into 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.800 danger or you, uh, and that you should be on 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.159 heightened alert at all times. This explains a lot about 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.199 me as an adult now having grown up in that period. 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.760 I'm like, oh, yeah, now I understand why that was 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.240 so hammered into my head. You know, don't accept candy 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.960 from strangers that one or like the old Is this 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:09.840 an old wives tail or not? I don't know about 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.200 a girl scout cookies with needles in them? Do you 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:13.879 remember that? I never heard that one. Of course, I 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.320 always heard the the the trick or treating uh story. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.600 You know that you need to be careful because there 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:22.720 might be razor blades in the apple. Yeah. We used 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.040 to have to um after we were trick or true 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:26.920 to bring all the candy home, and if it was 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.040 big enough to have a razor blade in it, my 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.679 my parents would, you know, break it down into smaller 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.639 pieces to make sure it was safe. You gotta be 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.600 you gotta be careful. I mean there was when I 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.000 was growing up, there was one house in the neighborhood 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.679 where the guy would put um razor blades in the 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:45.440 candied apples every year. But they were really good candied apples, 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.879 so nobody said so we just kind of ignore it 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.320 because you knew it's in there. You just know to 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.520 take it out and enjoy the treat. Yeah, it's part 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.800 of it's part of the experience. Um. And now another 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.119 another experience. It's another activity that's often thrown into the 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.320 the the into the Satanic Panic culture of course, is 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:10.520 Dungeons and Dragons. Um. I specifically remember getting into Dungeons 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.800 and Dragons. And this is in the nineties, so this 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.679 was after the Satanic Panic had died away for the 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.359 most part, but I still received, uh I think a 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:25.120 chick lit, a chick pamphlet. Oh yeah, jack chick track. Yeah, 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:27.439 I received it as part of a birthday present from 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.760 an ant one year anti Dungeons and dragons. Really. Oh, 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.320 that's fascinating. So so for listeners who don't know, a 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:38.159 chick track is a very small comic book that is 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:44.400 uh usually like a fundamentally Christian in nature um warning 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:46.800 about the perils of pop culture and how they can 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:52.119 draw you into uh not I don't know, necessarily satanic practices, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.119 but just you know, not being a good person and 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.119 sending you to hell. Yeah, basically, damnation was always the 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.680 threat and it and it would often include a little 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.919 you know, exploitive or grizzly kind of image read to 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.760 really grab particularly young reader's attention. Yeah, they're fascinating because 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:11.359 they incorporate elements of like the early nineteen fifties horror 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:16.159 comps into these these comics that are ultimately against that 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.480 kind of pop culture. Yeah. I love those things. You 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.720 can actually go online and look at like the whole 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:24.919 library of them. They're fascinating. Yeah. The D and D 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.520 thing for me, I uh, it must have been the 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.280 late eighties early nineties when I probably started playing Dungeons 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.720 and Dragons as a little kid, and shortly thereafter I 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.200 had that experience where I went to the religious school 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.080 that I mentioned at the top and was sort of 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:46.040 terrified that that this box set of Dice and monster 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.760 Manual and and uh, you know, the silly stuff about 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.600 elves and dwarves and gnomes was somehow going to lead 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.239 to my demise and satanic ritual abuse. But I did 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.400 have some pretty heavy demons in there, and the orcs 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.320