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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Hey, I'm Christian Seger guest

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Speaker 1: toasting Yes Christians, filling in for Julie. She's on a

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Speaker 1: vacation this week, and uh, she took this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: dive into a couple of darker topics. We talked about

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Speaker 1: Gromore's and in this episode we're talking about a little

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Speaker 1: thing called Satanic panic. And uh, I feel I feel

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Speaker 1: like depending on where our listeners are in terms of

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Speaker 1: of age and the geographical location, they're gonna have varying

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Speaker 1: levels of of intersection with this topic. Based on our

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Speaker 1: previous conversations, I believe we both have varying degrees of

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Speaker 1: contact with the Satanic panic of the nineteen eighties, especially

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Speaker 1: time in which there was a lot of moral panic

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Speaker 1: and outrage over the perceived threat of secret Satanic cults,

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Speaker 1: which sounds crazy. It may sound crazy to you, but

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Speaker 1: this was a very real atmosphere. Yeah, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: peak of Satanic panic was between nineteen eighty five and

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Speaker 1: around nineteen two, although I think you can probably trace

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Speaker 1: it even a little further back into the late seventies probably,

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Speaker 1: and that for me, I'm thirty seven, I'm about to

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Speaker 1: be thirty eight, So I grew up that was the

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Speaker 1: period of time when I was growing up. You know. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well we're the same age, so okay, yeah, so so yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like I was in elementary school while this was going on,

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Speaker 1: and it was a it was something that my parents

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Speaker 1: weren't necessarily as afraid of it, but I had friends

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Speaker 1: whose parents were afraid of it. Uh, And then um,

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Speaker 1: we talked about this off air. But I had an

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Speaker 1: experience where for a year I had to go to

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Speaker 1: a private religious school and there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: Satanic panic within this school, and in particular about demon

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Speaker 1: possession and being the need to be exercised or even Uh.

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Speaker 1: We had a classmate who was ostracized by our teacher

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Speaker 1: because he was purported to be possessed by the devil.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, I mean I I definitely grew up as

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Speaker 1: well in a in a family environment where a lot

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Speaker 1: of there wasn't a lot of of of emphasis on

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Speaker 1: satanic panic. It wasn't really a thing in my family.

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Speaker 1: But would go to church and you would you would

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Speaker 1: hear about the thread or read about the thread in

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Speaker 1: various youth of publications that were that were aimed at

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Speaker 1: us about the dangers of say, horror literature, about of

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Speaker 1: course heavy metal music, and and then there were I

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Speaker 1: remember also having having friends who were really heavily involved

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Speaker 1: in our youth group and being at a youth coffee

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Speaker 1: house and being asked to come into a back room

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Speaker 1: to sit in on an exorcism. Uh. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was this whole atmosphere, uh, you know, it was especially

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Speaker 1: attractive to teens in which these these demonic forces were real.

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Speaker 1: There was this there's this war between the forces of

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Speaker 1: good and the forces of evil, and your soul, your

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Speaker 1: mind is kind of the battle ground. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: it's satanic panic are also you know what what the

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Speaker 1: claimed practices are generally termed under the phrase satanic ritual

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Speaker 1: abuse UM or s r A. For sure, we might

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Speaker 1: say that throughout the podcast. But there there was this

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Speaker 1: mm hmmm uh sort of chaos about the general chaos

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Speaker 1: about growing up as a human being in the world,

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Speaker 1: especially as an adolescent, when you're trying to figure things out,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to make sense of the world, and then

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Speaker 1: along comes this narrative that's basically like you are at

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Speaker 1: the center of this and either um, these underground mysterious

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Speaker 1: heavy metal cults can transform your soul into into darkness,

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Speaker 1: or you you can be guarded and uh you know,

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Speaker 1: come out on the side of right business. Uh and

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Speaker 1: it you know, it sounds silly, it sounds very um

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Speaker 1: black and white. Um, but yeah, having lived through it,

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Speaker 1: like it's especially like going back and then doing the

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Speaker 1: research on this and being like, oh, yeah, I remember

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Speaker 1: when that happened. And but but but my little ten

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Speaker 1: year old brain, you know, seven couldn't couldn't exactly make

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Speaker 1: sense of it, you know. Uh, yeah, it's just some

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Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. But largely satanic panic was a combination of that.

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Speaker 1: There was this idea of repressed memories being brought back,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of these repressed memories were supposedly of

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Speaker 1: interactions or torture within satanic underground organizations. There's secret organizations

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Speaker 1: that are worshiping the devil and as part of their rights,

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Speaker 1: they are abusing, often sexually, very young children, and that

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Speaker 1: that is sort of where the moral panic comes in.

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Speaker 1: That gets everyone involved, at least in the children. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The again, the this is kind of ironic as I

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Speaker 1: wrote a comic book called this But Think of the

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Speaker 1: Children as where you always they always comes back to

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Speaker 1: these moral panics, is that something is going wrong with

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Speaker 1: the children. And in this particular case, it was actually

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Speaker 1: true in a lot of these incidents that there were

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Speaker 1: children that were being physically abused and sexually abused. But

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Speaker 1: there has not been by and large evidence that there

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Speaker 1: ever was an underground Satanic network or cult that was

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Speaker 1: operating and performing these these acts. Yeah. I mean, certainly

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Speaker 1: there are there their individuals out there that self identify

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Speaker 1: as Satanists, but Fatanist of the type that are vilified

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Speaker 1: in Satanic panic. Uh, And in this movement, they never existed,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that's key to teep in mind. But

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things that's so fascinating about it

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Speaker 1: is that there is no actual religious group that this

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Speaker 1: is Bay surround. It's all based on on hearsay and

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Speaker 1: myth making and fear. Yeah, and it's um that myth

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Speaker 1: making largely came out of media sensationalism in the eighties too,

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Speaker 1: And in particular, there was one hallmark that we both

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Speaker 1: watched and kind of kind of went back to, which

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Speaker 1: was Horaldo Rivera and had a uh an expose that

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Speaker 1: was called where is it the title of this thing,

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Speaker 1: uh Devil Worship, exposing Satan's underground And it was this

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Speaker 1: two hour talk show that he did, interspersed with various

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Speaker 1: you know, on the scene reports of Heraldo talking to

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Speaker 1: victims of Satanic ritual abuse. But then in the studio

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Speaker 1: he was talking to Ozzy Osbourne via satellite. And then

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Speaker 1: he had um a Catholic priest on stage, and he

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Speaker 1: had members of the Church of Satan Anton LaVey's Church

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Speaker 1: of Satan, not to be confused with the Satanic Panic

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Speaker 1: Satanist cults that we are supposedly operating. Uh FBI agents

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Speaker 1: were in the room or on stage who were supposedly,

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Speaker 1: you know, tracking down these underground cults uh it rewatching it.

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Speaker 1: I expected to be very skeptical, and instead I found

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Speaker 1: myself saying, Okay, I know about this. I know that

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Speaker 1: this is largely a a moral hysteria that happened thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago, but it's compelling. I could see why people

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Speaker 1: fell for it at the time, and we're you know,

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Speaker 1: deeply concerned. Um so, yeah, it's just really interesting. But

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Speaker 1: so ultimately Satanic ritual abuse falls under the following claimed

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Speaker 1: practices that were being acted out by these groups. Supposedly, uh,

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Speaker 1: there was human sacrifice, sexual depravity make of that what

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Speaker 1: you will, or perversion uh, and that these were actual

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Speaker 1: statistics that the law enforcement officials were throwing out. Fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand or more people were eyeing a year in the

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Speaker 1: United States of America from Satanic ritual abuse, supposedly, and

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Speaker 1: uh during their torture or murders, they were forced to

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Speaker 1: consume urine or feces or blood. And there's just you know,

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Speaker 1: basically anything that you can think of as being like

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Speaker 1: depraved acts were placed upon uh at the at the

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Speaker 1: foot of these mythological groups. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if mythological is the right term to use here, but

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Speaker 1: they were fantastic. Yeah. And it's it's interesting when you

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Speaker 1: start looking back, um through history, like how we got

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Speaker 1: to this point because I kind of think given in

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Speaker 1: terms of of a bonfire, right um, in which you

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Speaker 1: have all this kindling that's built up and it gets

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Speaker 1: it's to the point where you all you need is

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Speaker 1: that additional spark to to really just send it ablaze,

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Speaker 1: and the spark being of course, threats a threat, a

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Speaker 1: threat to the children or you know, a threat to

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Speaker 1: you know, a real personal threat to yourself. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you you go back far enough in time, you'll find

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Speaker 1: plenty of accounts of for instance, blood Libel fourteen seventy

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Speaker 1: five assignment of print blood Libel, in which an entire

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Speaker 1: Jewish community was tortured over the death of a two

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Speaker 1: year old Christian boy. There were, you know, the claim

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Speaker 1: being that there was a ritual murder of the child. Um.

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Speaker 1: You can you can find parallels and uh in which

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Speaker 1: hunts and which person persecutions throughout time. But when you're

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Speaker 1: looking particularly at the twentieth century. Um, there's a historian

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Speaker 1: by the name of Philip Jenkins who wrote a fabulous

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Speaker 1: piece called Satanism and Ritual Abuse. And this is collected

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Speaker 1: in the Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements. You believe

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Speaker 1: it's one of the last chapters in the book. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting piece, and I think it's one of

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Speaker 1: the best things that I've read that sort of encapsulates

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Speaker 1: the whole hysteria of the time and sort of points

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Speaker 1: to their being similar themes within the Satanic panic hysteria

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Speaker 1: to the rhetorical themes that were going on with fringe

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Speaker 1: religions throughout history too. You know, there's an empathy emphasis

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Speaker 1: on protecting endangered children, as we already talked about. There's

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Speaker 1: also this idea that religions are shaped by mass media.

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Speaker 1: Yeah indeed, and um and yeah, it's the only this

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Speaker 1: is the only chapter in the book that deals with

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Speaker 1: a non existent religion. Like there's all deal with actual

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Speaker 1: faith and splinter groups, but this is one, as we

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Speaker 1: pointed out, never actually exists. Now you have culturally resonant

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Speaker 1: concepts of the Black Mass, ritual magic, uh, the witches,

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Speaker 1: Sabbath all kind of merged together, and and just just

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Speaker 1: setting back there in the public consciousness on on top

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Speaker 1: of that, you have you have en you have tales

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Speaker 1: of Alistair Crawley's Black Masses and Exotic London. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: were published, they were published stories about this in the

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Speaker 1: New York World. Uh. So already you have this idea

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Speaker 1: that there are there are people out there in the

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Speaker 1: world that are engaging in these dark rights. Uh. You

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Speaker 1: have of ninety seven Herbert Gorman's tale The Place called Dagon,

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Speaker 1: which is a work of fiction about Satanist or Satanist

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Speaker 1: like cults that were descended from Survivors of Salem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was a fascinating find for me in the research

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Speaker 1: because I am a fan of weird fiction, I'm a

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Speaker 1: fan of horror fiction, and obviously a lot of that

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Speaker 1: traces back to HP Lovecraft's work, and HP Lovecraft was

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Speaker 1: apparently influenced by this book, and it's something that I

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Speaker 1: had never heard of before. I mean, or if I did,

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Speaker 1: it just never resonated with me. Yeah. Same here he

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Speaker 1: because he apparently mentions it in Supernatural Horror and Literature,

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Speaker 1: which I've read, but he throws out a lot of

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Speaker 1: authors and titles that, especially the modern reader is not

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Speaker 1: going to be deconnected with. But apparently it's a big

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Speaker 1: influence on on Lovecraft, Block, Henry Kuttner, Dennis Wheatley, various

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Speaker 1: other individuals who who definitely resonated at the time and

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Speaker 1: affected the weird fiction world and then the larger pulp

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Speaker 1: pop culture world to emerge from it. Yeah. And one

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Speaker 1: of Jenkins arguments in this piece is that you can

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Speaker 1: trace almost all the elements of the nineteen eighties Satanic

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Speaker 1: panic back to this nine seven story, the place called Dagon,

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Speaker 1: which ultimately you know it's summarizes being like it's a

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Speaker 1: thriller that's set in western Massachusetts, which is where I'm

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Speaker 1: originally from. Uh, and that descendants from Salem, Massachusetts, which

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Speaker 1: if if you don't know, Salem is on the east

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Speaker 1: coast of Massachusetts. Uh, practice the you know, which is

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Speaker 1: famous for the witch trials and for for witchcraft. These

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Speaker 1: descendants moved out to Western mass and essentially we're performing

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Speaker 1: the same satanic rituals and and uh, you know, usage

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Speaker 1: of it actually ties back to what we talked about

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Speaker 1: in a in a previous podcast about grimoires. The the

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Speaker 1: idea of this sort of ritual magic being used and

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Speaker 1: in these texts being used to perform it, it's energing.

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Speaker 1: Jenkins points out that by the nineteen thirties, uh, the

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Speaker 1: roots were already there fictionally, but you also saw a

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Speaker 1: few instances here and there of law enforcement actually beginning

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Speaker 1: to at least entertain the possibility of sacrificial cult activities

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Speaker 1: in some crimes. Yeah. I think that that's one of

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Speaker 1: the really interesting things that probably helped popularize it too, right,

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Speaker 1: is that, um, these various law enforcement officials, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think that they necessarily had malicious intent. They probably

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Speaker 1: thought that they were They had come upon, you know,

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Speaker 1: actual leads in these stories. I mean, you know what

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Speaker 1: I kept thinking of when I was reading this stuff

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Speaker 1: was True Detective, the first season of True Detective, And

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Speaker 1: I was like, you could look at the first season

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Speaker 1: of True Detective as being about, uh, these misguided uh

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Speaker 1: police officers who think that there's a secret uh ritualistic

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Speaker 1: cult somewhere that's you know, running things and abusing children,

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Speaker 1: which which ultimately you know, that's that's what that fictional

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Speaker 1: story is about. But ultimately that was the same narrative

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Speaker 1: that these FBI agents or police officers or whomever were,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of on the hunt because the thought

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Speaker 1: thought was going on they they wanted to be doing

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Speaker 1: their jobs basically, Yeah, because I mean, in one hand,

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Speaker 1: you have this fictional world, but then you have in

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Speaker 1: these fictional accounts of Satanic rights. But then you also have,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the back of everyone's mind this idea

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Speaker 1: that black Mass and ritual mass, magic and the witches

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Speaker 1: Sabbath was real. You have these stories, uh that that

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Speaker 1: you're you're reading about when in which there are people

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Speaker 1: they're self identifying as Satanist. For instance, uh, nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 1: that's when Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan, and

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Speaker 1: obviously that makes the that makes the media rounds. People

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Speaker 1: are outraged about that, even though at heart um LaVey's

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Speaker 1: Satanism was really more grounded and to a certain extant

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Speaker 1: satire and also uh cultural commentary and as well as

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Speaker 1: sort of Carney hijinks and fun. Yeah. I think like

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Speaker 1: this is one of the really important distinctions that we

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Speaker 1: should make here in the podcast that there isn't confusion

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Speaker 1: for the listeners is that the Anton Lavay Church of

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Speaker 1: Satan is uh an entirely different philosophy organization. They refer

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Speaker 1: to themselves as a religion. Uh, then what was even

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Speaker 1: being imagined as these underground Satanic cults? And to sort

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Speaker 1: of summarize it, I'm not I'm not the best at

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Speaker 1: Anton LaVey uh philosophy, but my takeaway from it is

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Speaker 1: that ultimately it was just about a philosophy of individualism

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Speaker 1: and that Lave's thing was that each individual as their

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Speaker 1: own God. And so they used quote unquote Satan as

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Speaker 1: a metaphorical expression right of of having pride in yourself

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Speaker 1: and being enlightened because you were your own God. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it was ultimately about and They refer to this

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Speaker 1: in the Heraldo Special Rational self Interest, But you're right,

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Speaker 1: it was very a theatrical and it had like elements

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Speaker 1: of datas them to it. I guess that this performance

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Speaker 1: were like Llvey dresses up in these robes and has

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Speaker 1: you know, his his eyebrows waxed so that they look villainous.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was playing up to it, and he

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Speaker 1: was using terms like Church of Satan or Book of

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Speaker 1: Satan in order to provoke people. But then they were

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Speaker 1: sort of appropriated again, uh for this this panic about

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Speaker 1: Satanic ritual abuse, and we're often conflated. It's really fascinating

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Speaker 1: when you watch that Heraldo Special to see members of

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Speaker 1: his church. I think at the time Love was dead,

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Speaker 1: but like his daughter and another member of his church

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Speaker 1: who at the time was an army colonel. We're on

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Speaker 1: stage and answering Horaldo's questions, basically trying to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what we're talking about here, that they're completely two

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Speaker 1: separate things. This, you know, Church of Satan is a

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Speaker 1: ironic performance philosophy piece essentially, whereas like the the accusations

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Speaker 1: of ritual abuse had nothing to do with them rights.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting that they were kind of dude to

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Speaker 1: a certain extent, they were riding the wave of of

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Speaker 1: the the the sort of Satanic culture, if you will,

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Speaker 1: but then also end up falling falling into the trap

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Speaker 1: of satanic panic as well, because you had, of course

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Speaker 1: satanic elements in rock music, you had satanic exploitation cinema

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Speaker 1: that you know, really came into its own, especially in

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Speaker 1: the nineties seventies, UM. And then on the other side,

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Speaker 1: and do you also have some real life stuff that's happening,

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Speaker 1: uh that that either has overt shades of Satanic culture

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Speaker 1: to it or some some you know, more subliminal content,

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Speaker 1: or even just media shades cast on it, such as

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, right right, Yeah, So Charles Manson obviously, you know,

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Speaker 1: associated himself with quote the Devil or Satan, even in

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Speaker 1: a looser fashion, I would say that Anton Leavey did,

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Speaker 1: and again I suspect Charles Manson. For Charles Manson, it

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Speaker 1: was largely theatrical purposes. I believe that he had a

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Speaker 1: quote where he said Satan and Christ will come together

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Speaker 1: at the end of the world to judge humanity, and

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Speaker 1: he is actually in that Haraldo special he had I

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Speaker 1: think Carldo had done like a previous special year earlier

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Speaker 1: murder where he'd gone and visited Charles Manson interviewed him,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, you can't even like gather any kind

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Speaker 1: of coherence from their conversation because Manson is just rambling

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Speaker 1: the whole time. But uh, but Haraldo is able to

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Speaker 1: kind of take that and manipulate it through edits and

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Speaker 1: footage to seem like he's at the heart of the

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Speaker 1: Satanic virtual abuse. And in around nineteen seven you see

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Speaker 1: child abuse really becoming a trending topic in the media

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Speaker 1: with years of media expose is to follow on child murder,

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Speaker 1: child pornography, kidnapping very much. Though you know the stranger

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Speaker 1: danger elment of of moral panic um that that really,

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Speaker 1: I mean existed before the Satanic panic and survived well

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Speaker 1: after connoones to survive in many many ways. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's understandable now to look back

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Speaker 1: on it and to see why parents are probably terrified

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Speaker 1: at the time. You see real life things like the

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Speaker 1: Jonestown incident happened, where there's a massacre that included many

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Speaker 1: children that were killed by a cultist activity, and so

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Speaker 1: that really takes on a prominent role in the media

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Speaker 1: coverage of threats to children and in this this case,

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Speaker 1: religiously themed threats to children. Uh. Then of course you

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Speaker 1: have you have other murderers who end up taking elements

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Speaker 1: from this moral outrage and incorporating it, incorporating it into

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Speaker 1: their their crimes, or at least there uh the way

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Speaker 1: they end up talking about their crimes after the fact.

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Speaker 1: Richard Ramire's the night stalker murderer between of eighty five. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was. He was certainly more overt in it than

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson. He would mention Satan during his crimes. His

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Speaker 1: first court appearance, he shows up with a pentagram drawing

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Speaker 1: on his hand and he yells, Hail Satan. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: of course that's just that just throws more kindling on

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Speaker 1: the fire, this idea that there there's a danger here

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Speaker 1: with with the with satanic individuals and they want to

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Speaker 1: hurt us. And then there's this there's a danger president

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Speaker 1: culture for our children. Yeah, sort of that behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: that there there's a Richard Ramirez or a Charles Manson. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they could be anywhere. Basically, it's it's sort

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Speaker 1: of an invasion of the body snatchers all over again.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's this idea that anybody could be part

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Speaker 1: of these networks, anybody uh could lure your children into

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Speaker 1: danger or you, uh, and that you should be on

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Speaker 1: heightened alert at all times. This explains a lot about

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Speaker 1: me as an adult now having grown up in that period.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, now I understand why that was

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Speaker 1: so hammered into my head. You know, don't accept candy

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Speaker 1: from strangers that one or like the old Is this

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Speaker 1: an old wives tail or not? I don't know about

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Speaker 1: a girl scout cookies with needles in them? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember that? I never heard that one. Of course, I

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Speaker 1: always heard the the the trick or treating uh story.

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Speaker 1: You know that you need to be careful because there

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Speaker 1: might be razor blades in the apple. Yeah. We used

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Speaker 1: to have to um after we were trick or true

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Speaker 1: to bring all the candy home, and if it was

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Speaker 1: big enough to have a razor blade in it, my

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Speaker 1: my parents would, you know, break it down into smaller

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Speaker 1: pieces to make sure it was safe. You gotta be

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Speaker 1: you gotta be careful. I mean there was when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, there was one house in the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: where the guy would put um razor blades in the

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Speaker 1: candied apples every year. But they were really good candied apples,

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Speaker 1: so nobody said so we just kind of ignore it

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Speaker 1: because you knew it's in there. You just know to

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Speaker 1: take it out and enjoy the treat. Yeah, it's part

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Speaker 1: of it's part of the experience. Um. And now another

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Speaker 1: another experience. It's another activity that's often thrown into the

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Speaker 1: the the into the Satanic Panic culture of course, is

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons. Um. I specifically remember getting into Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons. And this is in the nineties, so this

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Speaker 1: was after the Satanic Panic had died away for the

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Speaker 1: most part, but I still received, uh I think a

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Speaker 1: chick lit, a chick pamphlet. Oh yeah, jack chick track. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I received it as part of a birthday present from

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Speaker 1: an ant one year anti Dungeons and dragons. Really. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating. So so for listeners who don't know, a

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Speaker 1: chick track is a very small comic book that is

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Speaker 1: uh usually like a fundamentally Christian in nature um warning

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Speaker 1: about the perils of pop culture and how they can

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Speaker 1: draw you into uh not I don't know, necessarily satanic practices,

381
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Speaker 1: but just you know, not being a good person and

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Speaker 1: sending you to hell. Yeah, basically, damnation was always the

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Speaker 1: threat and it and it would often include a little

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Speaker 1: you know, exploitive or grizzly kind of image read to

385
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Speaker 1: really grab particularly young reader's attention. Yeah, they're fascinating because

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00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: they incorporate elements of like the early nineteen fifties horror

387
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: comps into these these comics that are ultimately against that

388
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: kind of pop culture. Yeah. I love those things. You

389
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: can actually go online and look at like the whole

390
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: library of them. They're fascinating. Yeah. The D and D

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Speaker 1: thing for me, I uh, it must have been the

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Speaker 1: late eighties early nineties when I probably started playing Dungeons

393
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Speaker 1: and Dragons as a little kid, and shortly thereafter I

394
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Speaker 1: had that experience where I went to the religious school

395
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Speaker 1: that I mentioned at the top and was sort of

396
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Speaker 1: terrified that that this box set of Dice and monster

397
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Speaker 1: Manual and and uh, you know, the silly stuff about

398
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: elves and dwarves and gnomes was somehow going to lead

399
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Speaker 1: to my demise and satanic ritual abuse. But I did

400
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: have some pretty heavy demons in there, and the orcs

401
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: and elves and then Dice. You know, there's something kind

402
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: of arcane and uh yeah, and and of course, you know,

403
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: like we mentioned this before when we talked about Remois

404
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: in the other episode, but there's there's a lot of

405
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: connections between the system of Dungeons and Dragons world of

406
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: magic and the Grimoire cult world of magic. You know,

407
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: they're they're they're connected. And obviously people who weren't familiar

408
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: with either of those things kind of saw them as

409
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: being one and the same and subsequently associated them with

410
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: satanic ritual abuse. But it's really interesting, Um, the D

411
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Speaker 1: and D thing, there was a group that was formed

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties called Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there the acronym was bad and I was serving

414
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: the acronym then yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, uh And I

415
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: believe that they filed a lawsuit against whomever owned D

416
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Speaker 1: and D at the time. I don't know if that

417
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: was Gary Gygax or they had gone to TSR at

418
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: that time or not. But this group then joined forces

419
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Speaker 1: with this guy who's a psychiatrist named Thomas Rodecki um,

420
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: because they wanted to raise the social awareness of the

421
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: dangers of dungeons and dragons. Uh. And they basically associated

422
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: it with the idea of that in psychotherapy that you

423
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: act out role playing as a way to sort of

424
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, recover, uh. And that but that within the

425
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: game they were using role playing for violence and sex

426
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: and fantasy, and that it would ultimately be the have

427
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: the opposite effect. It would it would lead them down

428
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: the wrong path. Uh. And it was linked with heavy

429
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: metal music, which we've talked about earlier. And the demons

430
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: within think that this is what's fascinating to me, is

431
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: it all comes around again. After this whole satanicchanic movement

432
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: kind of fades away in the mid nineties, Um, you

433
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: start finding out that that a lot of this, you know,

434
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: their accusations weren't true. And then academics started doing a

435
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: real research on dungeons and drags and they found that, Uh.

436
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: For instance, one of the accusations that bad made about

437
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons was that increased the chance of, um,

438
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: your kid committing suicide. In fact, I believe the founder

439
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: was the mother of a of a teenager who committed suicide,

440
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: and she blamed it on dungeons and dragons. Um. But

441
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: there was empirical research that proved that that, in fact

442
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: was not the case, and that rate of suicide were

443
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: lower in kids who probably Dungeons and Dragons, and there

444
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: was also no measurable negative impact on their psychological functioning

445
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: emotional measures, or reality testing. This is all from an

446
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: article in Psychology Today that was published in fourteen about

447
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons Satan in Psychology uh and uh So

448
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: their final conclusions here basically that the leaders of this

449
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: group bad had completely exaggerated their own credentials. They cherry

450
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: picked their data for convenience obviously of you know, making

451
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons look bad. And then this is the

452
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: real interesting fact. So the sec chiatrists that they associated with,

453
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: Riddecki uh he in particular, was arrested in for sexually

454
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: exploiting his patients. Uh he was treating basically um medicine

455
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: for sexual favors from his patients. So this same guy

456
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: who is accusing Dungeons and Dragons of being responsible responsible

457
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: for sexual abuse himself was a perpetrator. Alright. So so

458
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: far we've discussed the cultural kindling for the most part

459
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: that leads up to the moral panic of Satanic panic.

460
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: Uh that as uh, as historian Philip Jenkins points out

461
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: in his peace, Satanism in which will abuse. Um, you

462
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: can you can really trace a lot um of the

463
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: the s R a Satanic which will abuse outcry to

464
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: this particular book that comes out in nineteen eighty titled

465
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: Michelle Remembers, UH comes out and it really cements this

466
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: notion of ritualized sexual abuse by Satanic cults. Everything we've

467
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: been talking about, black robes, UM, you know, vile rights, UH,

468
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: the the abuse against children, and it entails UH so

469
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: called Michelle's memories that are called during therapy in the

470
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies of her sexual abuse in the nineteen fifties

471
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: in Vancouver. So we're talking Ozzie and Harriet Era here

472
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: and that One of the interesting things about Michelle Remembers,

473
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: which again this was a book that I was not

474
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: familiar with before we governed any research for this UM,

475
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: is that Michelle Smith, who was the patient that underwent

476
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: the therapy and was the subject of this book, her

477
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: therapist later became her husband. So this man who helped

478
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: her uncover these memories, they also began an intimate relationship together.

479
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: But over the course of the years, many people have

480
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: discredited the claims that were made within the book. UM

481
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: both psychologists and I believe people from her actual past. Yeah.

482
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: I think literally all of the charges that that come

483
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: out of her personal accounts of this abuse comes from

484
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: West African secret societies accounts of them anyway, they were

485
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: imported into Canada in the nineteen fifties. But this narrative

486
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: becomes really popular and and it has two key things

487
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: that does here. It leads to other survivor accounts that

488
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: spring up, other people that are that are writing books

489
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: about their their reclaim memories of Satanic abuse in the past.

490
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: And it also really pushes into a certain example, legitimizes

491
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: the theory that traumatic memories can remain dormant only to

492
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: be recalled later by a therapist. Yeah, it's really the

493
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: common theme that runs throughout most of the Satanic panic hysteria.

494
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: Is uh, this this this scientific idea of repressed memories

495
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: being a psychological phenomenon that certain therapists are going to

496
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: be able to dig deep enough and pull out this

497
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: traumatic memory and make you, you know, realize what what

498
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: truly aige you the way that you are? What, what

499
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: is what is actually causing your problems? Um, And it

500
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: was everybody from psychotherapists to child welfare advocates, and they

501
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: didn't you know, again, like the law enforcement officials that

502
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: were involved, I don't think that they necessarily had malicious intentions.

503
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: Maybe some of them saw some profit. I would imagine

504
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: that the author of Michelle Remembers saw some good paychecks

505
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: out of that book's popularity. But uh, you know, basically

506
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: they thought that this was evidence of these satanic cults

507
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: actually existing, and they wanted to protect small children. That

508
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: was essentially what they saw from it, um. And so

509
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: they used hypnosis or different kinds of psychological protocols to essentially,

510
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, save people from Satan, to save people from

511
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: these past traumatic events, and to dig up uh dirt

512
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: on on the actual you know, threat that was still

513
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: out there, um, which which led to a lot of

514
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: finger pointing and and um in some cases which we'll

515
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: talk about later with like West Memphis three uh accusations

516
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: that send people to jail unjustly. Yeah, I mean, you

517
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: can certainly see the attractiveness of it both on the

518
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: the treat the treatment side, and the patient side. I mean,

519
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: if you're you're feeling like you're out of sorts in

520
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: the world, like you have some problem, and if only

521
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: you could you could just tear out the root cause

522
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: of it, right, and then if there is this, uh,

523
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: this narrative that's presented to you that well, perhaps in

524
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: the past you were abused, uh, perhaps you were abused

525
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: by this nefarious organization and all the main thing we

526
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: need to do, or at least the first step, is

527
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: to get those memories out of the dark, out of

528
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: the you know, the closet of your mind, and pull

529
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: them out to where we can dispel them and to

530
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: give you an idea of just how prevalent this was. Uh.

531
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: An organization formed in around this idea of repressed memories.

532
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: It was called the False Memories Drum Foundation. And here's

533
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: some statistics I found from a USA Today article at

534
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: the time when it was first formed and they were

535
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 1: interviewing them, uh, they said that, um uh, they had

536
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: done a survey where they interviewed three thousand of families,

537
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: and their preliminary findings were, of just these three thousand people,

538
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: twenty of the children within these families said that they

539
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: people who are adults now but who had been children,

540
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: say that they had been tortured in Satanic rituals. So

541
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: of the three thousand people that they interviewed that that's

542
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: huge to me and sounds uh like like an astronomical

543
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: number when you apply that kind of generalization to the

544
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: entire American population. Uh. And then there's this also interesting study.

545
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: A group psychologists at the State University of New York

546
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: at Buffalo looked further into it, and they found that

547
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: of eight hundred therapists UH had at least or Sorry,

548
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: they interviewed thirty thousand therapists, and eight hundred of them

549
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: said that they had at least once in their sessions

550
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: with their patients, had come across cases of Satanic ritual abuse.

551
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: So this, I mean, there was hard evidence as far

552
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: as people I saw that this was happening, that it

553
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: was pervasive and it needed to be stopped. Yea. And

554
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: of course, these narratives that they're pulling out there obviously

555
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: informed by the the established narrative in the culture that

556
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: that of the retrieve memories. But also um, all of

557
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: these influences we've talked about before the culture of black

558
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: Masses and Sabbaths, every Devil movie that came out but

559
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: in the nineties, sixties, seventies, and eighties, all of it

560
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: coloring your perceptions, UM of the adults. Anyway, Now, what

561
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: happens when you attempt to pull these uh, these these

562
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: types of memories from from a small child, though, from

563
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: someone who hasn't seen Rosemary's Baby, who who doesn't listen

564
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: listen to who has heard Heraldo on television talking about

565
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 1: the dangerous of death metal. It's well, we see that

566
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: in UM in a very pivotal nineteen four case to

567
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 1: make Martin Preschool UM sexual abuse case in southern California.

568
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: And this is a case where prosecutors charged that a

569
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: ring of teachers were sexually abusing hundreds of small children

570
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: in rituals that involved robes and masks and pentacles and

571
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 1: church altars. And the case now is regarded as completely focused.

572
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: But at the time it sent out these waves of

573
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: fear just through throughout the society, got picked up on

574
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: the media and just you know, boosted, uh, you know, tenfold.

575
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: UM in this case, like cases to follow, uh, it

576
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: followed a particular flow. You had a limited plausible accusation

577
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: of abuse that emerges at a school. Then you haven't

578
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: have an investigation, and you interrogate the child and then

579
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: you get this therapist derived account from from an impressionable

580
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: young child child regarding what happened. And since these kids,

581
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: for the most part, they have no knowledge of adult sexuality,

582
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: but they but they can tell that this this concerned

583
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: adult authority figure is trying to get something disturbing out

584
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: of them. So what does a small child bring to

585
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: the table, what can they possibly pull out? They start

586
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: talking about, well, well, they made me drink peepee, they

587
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: made me yeah. Yeah. It's basically like they go for

588
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: their version of whatever the worst taboo possible thing could

589
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: be at the time. And you know, so of course

590
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: they think of it as being things like that, uh

591
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: it's the word copperphilia yea, yeah, yeah. And that McMartin

592
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: incident was one of many. Yeah, there's I believe in

593
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: the Heraldo special as well that they talked about a

594
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: Presidio daycare center that had a very similar kind of

595
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: uh incident that was that was labeled as being potentially

596
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: attached to Satanic ritual abuse. And there's an interesting part

597
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: two where they talked about the mcmartins school abuse scandal,

598
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: I believe, and they started comparing that their idea of

599
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: Satanic rituals as being somehow associated with the Episcopal Church,

600
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. It felt like this strange

601
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: smear campaign against episcopals, as if it wasn't like a

602
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: a valid form of Christianity. It was, it was brief,

603
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: It was kind of interesting. And so in both of

604
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: these cases we see this established in the media and

605
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: the increasingly in the public mindset, uh that Satanic ritual

606
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: abuse is a threat to our children as well as

607
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: to the child that we used to be, that we

608
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: all could have been conceivably sexually abused by Satanist in

609
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: the past, and we have only to to pull that

610
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: out of our out of out of the closet of

611
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: our memory. But the thing is, it's it. It goes

612
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: beyond just Heraldo Rivera right. It becomes a part of

613
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: it becomes disseminated outward through professional organizations, through police, therapist,

614
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: youth workers, seminars aimed at the discovery of new Satanic

615
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: abuse histories. And so you reach the point by the

616
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: by the nineteen eighties where the panic is spreading outward

617
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: into the UK and Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, South Africa,

618
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: anywhere that American therapeutic and criminological literature is read. Yeah, yeah,

619
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: And it's so the Netherlands part is one of the

620
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: ones that's interesting to me. Uh. So Uh, I am

621
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: a fan of heavy metal music. Uh and uh uh.

622
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: The Netherlands and Norway in particular are are known for

623
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: as being the home of black metal, this particular genre

624
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: of metal, which was largely associated with this sort of

625
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: traditionalist movement of burning down Christian churches, and some of

626
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: their members were accused and tried for murder. Uh. And

627
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: so even though they didn't necessarily have I don't even

628
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: think like possibly their their song lyrics have anything to

629
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: do with Satan or devil worship, but because they were

630
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: against Christianity again, the Satanic panics hysteria sort of spread

631
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: over there. Yeah, so that the cultural kindling was perfect

632
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: for that spark to fly across the ocean and take root. Yeah. Absolutely,

633
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: it's interesting to uh like how much of the messaging was,

634
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: of course aimed at parents, but also a teenager's about

635
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: the dangers of all this stuff about dungeons and dragons

636
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: and the music. Uh. And you know, when you're a teenager,

637
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: of course, all you want to do is is is

638
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: find the significance in your life and and at times

639
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 1: lash out against the authority figures in their expectations, so

640
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: you actually end up fleeing to that stuff. Like I

641
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: I definitely had a copy of both that fake Necronomicon

642
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: and the and the Satanic Bible, nice paperback versions of both.

643
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: Satanic Bible was a bestseller. Yeah, I mean lot of

644
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: I think there were a lot of both adolescence and

645
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: adults with that same experience. They were like, oh, by

646
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: this is you know, it's kind of a I imagine

647
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you would find it urban

648
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: outfitters nowadays or something near the checkout one. Yeah, but

649
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: I remember having both those books listening to Marylyn Manson. Yeah,

650
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: very much engaging in that, you know, in the in

651
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: the in the on one level, in the possibility that

652
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: there was something to do all this darkness, but also

653
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: just in the you know, need to stand apart from

654
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: the adult world. Yeah, it's the traditional sort of adolescent

655
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: anti authoritarian reflex, right combined with the um the hysteria

656
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: at the time moving around uh Satanic ritual abuse. So yeah,

657
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: I could see whether two would be conflated. I mean,

658
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: especially in a if you're if you grow up in

659
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: like a Christian or even just vaguely Christian environment in

660
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: which you have the the the economy of good and evil,

661
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: of God and Satan, and uh, you're gonna have a

662
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: tendency to sympathize with the villain in that piece. And

663
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: then uh and and by his book, yeah it is,

664
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: it is right exactly. And so like my experience growing

665
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: up was literally being in one of these uh private

666
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: Christian schools where I was told constantly, if you do

667
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, uh, then you're going to be possessed

668
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: by a demon and you'll possibly murder your family. I

669
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: mean this was like an actual thing that our pastor

670
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: would tell us in class every day. Um. And so

671
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, I mean this is probably around I don't know,

672
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: so so towards the tail end of this stuff, but

673
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: but you know, uh, they fill fill your head with

674
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: this enough. It's it's as bad, if not worse than

675
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: Ozzy Osborne, ser King Diamonds. You know, Yeah, because you

676
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: know that stuff is just largely engaging in fun and theme.

677
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: It's theatrical. Yeah, yeah, I don't Yeah, I don't know.

678
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: As a as a person who's into heavy metal, I

679
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: don't know of a lot of people are famous metal

680
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: musicians that are serious members of a Satanic organization. Yeah, yeah,

681
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean I think of like some of the interviews

682
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: I've seen with metal that I enjoy, and if you

683
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: just listen to their their their their lyrics and their music,

684
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: you get, you know, very much the the theme they're

685
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: going for, and this is the dark, the heavy, the

686
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: you know, industrial disturbing nature of the thing. But then

687
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: you see an interview with them and they seem like

688
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: like goofy guys their music, and yeah, absolutely, I mean

689
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: I think that that's that was probably the case with

690
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: Ozzy Osbourne as well. He's in that Geraldo thing and

691
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: it's it's hilarious watching him be interviewed. He's much more

692
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: lucid than the later Ozzy Osbourne of reality TV the

693
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,959
Speaker 1: probably Yeah, but he uh, you know, he obviously wasn't

694
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: articulate enough to kind of argue on his own behalf

695
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: of why he was just using these elements, this imagery

696
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: and symbology, uh, theatrically as part of his stage persona, uh,

697
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: rather than you know, it being directly impactful on teenagers

698
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: in America committing crimes against other children or their or

699
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: their their peers. Even um there, yeah, there there were

700
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: moments in that in the Haraldo special where they they're

701
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: interviewing kids who were in prison for having killed uh,

702
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: their their peers in school. Like uh. I can't remember

703
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: the name of the particular um guy. He'd probably be

704
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: a little older than us now, probably in his forties,

705
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: but um, there was an interview with him and he just,

706
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: you know, straight up blames it on heavy metal and

707
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: satanic uh participation. I have a feeling it was Sean

708
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: Seller's repete Rowland Roland. That was it. That was the guy. Yeah, yeah,

709
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: so it's um. You know, I think it was also

710
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: easy for people like that who had committed these attra

711
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: just crimes, to say to put the locus of control

712
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: externally onto something else and to say it wasn't me,

713
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: it's not inside of me. I didn't mean to do this.

714
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: It was because of heavy metal or Dungeons and Dragons

715
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: or and they're just yeah, they're just taking the excuse

716
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: that the media is has crafted for them and presented

717
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: them and say, hey, it's not your fault. It's because

718
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: you've got involved in this this thing that has a

719
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: viral component, that that if you just start rolling the

720
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons dice, if you start listening to savy

721
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: metal music, that it's just a slippery slope to just

722
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: violent outbreaks in demonic possession. Yeah, and that leads us

723
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: to the West Memphis three. You want to talk about

724
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: them now? Yeah, because I think that's certainly a case.

725
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: Even though it kind of it tends to fall towards

726
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: the end of the life cycle of satanic panic. Um,

727
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: it represents some of the worst, um, the worst residual

728
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: effects of satanic panic, at least on you know, individual level.

729
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 1: So this happened in between I believe was the the

730
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: the actual murders happened in ninety three, I think. And uh,

731
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: the trial lasted or there are multiple trials I believe

732
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: for two years. Um. But essentially, if you if you

733
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: want to know more about this, I highly suggest that

734
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: you go watch these documentaries that they're called Paradise Lost,

735
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: Is that right? Uh? Yeah, And and they're really well

736
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: put together by a crew that was basically they're shooting

737
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: from the minute these guys were on trial. Uh, and

738
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: it and it sort of documents the the cases throughout

739
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: the twenty years. Maybe I don't know, does the I

740
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: don't I haven't seen the last one. I don't think

741
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: I've seen. I don't know if it goes up to

742
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: the when these guys were released, but essentially, to boil

743
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: it down to its simplest terms, these three teenagers in

744
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: West Memphis, Arkansas were accused of tr I and convicted

745
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: from murdering three younger boys and it was supposedly part

746
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: of a satanic ritual. Uh. These these three guys were

747
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: all fans of heavy metal. They looked the part UH,

748
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: and it was easy to to place the blame on them. However,

749
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: in eleven UH they were able to make a plea

750
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: for their innocence based on DNA that was recovered from

751
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: the scene, and they were released. Essentially, the judge said, UM,

752
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: you're you're you're guilty up to time served. UM, so

753
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: the time that they had served from until eleven and

754
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: and they're out. Now you've probably seen there's UH fictional

755
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: feature accounts of of this story. What's the movie that

756
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: does yet? It has a Reese Witherspoon in it as

757
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: one of the mothers of the victims um and UH.

758
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: Colin Firth I believe plays a private investigator who's working

759
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: on their behalf to try to find evidence that that

760
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: proves their innocence. It's a complex case and it's it's

761
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: an extremely complicated Yeah. That's why I don't feel like

762
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: we can really do it justice here without doing an

763
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: entire episode. If you have bungled investigations on one hand,

764
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 1: you definitely have Satanic Panic and play. Yeah, and there's

765
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff to weird stuff that goes on

766
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: between some of the parents and the people making the documentary,

767
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: where the the filmmakers themselves sort of become part of

768
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: the story, and there's implications that maybe one or two

769
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: of the parents might have been involved in the actual

770
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: murders themselves. It's it's really confusing and disturbing, but ultimately

771
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: it comes down to that the three teenagers who were

772
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: convicted of these crimes were in fact innocent, uh and

773
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: wrongfully put away for crimes they didn't commit. Yeah. Of course,

774
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: sad like crimes that we we do not we don't

775
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: have an answer for we know who is RESPONSI yeah, exactly.

776
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: That's the sad part is that the person or persons

777
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: who did do it, uh got away with it. But luckily,

778
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: as we said, this occurred towards the end of Satanic

779
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: Panic as it's going out as it's uh is it's

780
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: leaving the public mindset and becoming far less of a

781
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: media obsession. Uh. And you might wonder what what caused that?

782
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: What makes us get away from that? What what creates

783
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: a situation so that by um you see you see

784
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: cases where the media doesn't jump on the Satanic bandwagon.

785
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: Four um abuse charges that at an elementary how do

786
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: we get to the point where by you have the

787
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: Columbine shootings. And despite all the various theories that come

788
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: up that initially in the wake of the awful incident,

789
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: Satanism is not one of them. Right, Yeah, that could

790
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: have very easily have been tagged within the Satanic panic easily,

791
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: and if it had occurred years earlier, no doubt it

792
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 1: would have. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh. There's this really interesting article

793
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: that I read uh UM called the Satanic Ritual Abuse

794
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: pan as a Religious Studies Data as part of the

795
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: journal International Review for the History of Religions, that sort

796
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: of this was written in two thousand three that summarizes

797
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: sort of the the entire era of Satanic Panic and

798
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: looks at this this sort of ending phase, and their

799
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: conclusion is there was no evidence for abuse of Satanic

800
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: cults existing Uh, anything that connected them as as ever

801
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: existing largely came from these repressed memories. Uh. And or

802
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: they were extracted from small children who then subsequently recovered

803
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: from what happened to them through the use of psychotherapy.

804
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: But there there was there was no actual, tenable forensic

805
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: evidence that these groups ever existed or responsible for these crimes.

806
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: Uh and and uh. There there's sort of a a

807
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: sadder thing at play here, I think, which is that, um,

808
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: that human culture maybe has a harder time dealing with

809
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: child abuse or violence, especially this this kind of you know,

810
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,959
Speaker 1: horrific violence, as in the case of the West Memphis three,

811
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: especially sexual abuse, um, without being able to place it

812
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: into a fantastic narrative that it is somehow outside of

813
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: the every day And that's the unfortunate part about this

814
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: is that in a lot of these cases where these

815
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: children and people were abused were hurt, um, oftentimes it

816
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: was just their friends or relatives, you know, it was

817
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: that that is the most disturbing thing of all, because

818
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: you want to be able to position that kind of

819
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: thing outside of your immediate sphere out you want to

820
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: place it on another and even if they look like

821
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: you and seem to be the same group. Like, if

822
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: the narrative is, oh, well they're secretly a Satanist, that's

823
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: far It's far easier to wrap your head around, as

824
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: fantastic as some of the ramifications are, than to say, well,

825
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: they're just this person that we just thought were like us,

826
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: someone that lived within our sphere, within our family. Even. Yeah, this,

827
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: this is a good quote that I liked from that

828
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: article that addresses that the author whose last name is Frankfurter,

829
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: I don't know what his first name is. He says

830
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: human memory psychologists have shown is clearly not a matter

831
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: of historical snapshots, even in the cases of trauma, and

832
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: it is enormously subject to suggestion, fantasy, social conditions, and

833
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: cultural nuances. So largely I think that's what we're talking

834
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: about here. Yeah, I mean you basically had a situation

835
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: where the experts moved in, the actual experts, not the

836
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: ones that would appear on like the soralto Special, and

837
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: they said, look, it doesn't exist. You had people like

838
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: Kenneth Lanning, FBI lead investigator on these so called sex rings,

839
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: who is a skeptical of it from the beginning, and

840
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: then with an outspoken critic of it in the media

841
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: had study of ritual crime allegations sponsored by the National

842
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: Center on Child Abuse and Neglect, and it just credited

843
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: virtually everything um as a massive study, and they only

844
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 1: found a very few cases of loan or or paired

845
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: perpetrators using ritualized tactics to intimidate children or thrilled themselves.

846
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: And they looked at twelve thousand incidents and they couldn't

847
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: find a single one that provided evidence quote of a

848
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: well organized intergenerational Satanic cult who's sexually molested and tortured

849
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: children in their homes or schools for years and committed

850
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: a series of murders unquote. So UK studies end up

851
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: backing this up. The McMartin preschool case falls apart. So

852
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: the media begins to realize, oh, well, there isn't anything

853
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: to this story. This is uh. They start talking to

854
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: the actual experts, and that the discrediting of Satanic panic

855
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: becomes the media narrative for a while, effectively killing it

856
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: off at least in the United States. But then, of

857
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: course you have lingering elements of it that remain in

858
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 1: other areas, particular in South Africa, for years to follow. Yeah,

859
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: and so one of the things that I think is

860
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: an interesting question for us to sort of pose to

861
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: ourselves and to the audiences, is uh. So we have

862
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: had these uh moments of hysteria throughout human history, you know,

863
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: um satanic panic. Uh. One of the ones that comes

864
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: to mind for me is something that I researched here

865
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: for a video that we did about, um, the Pokemon

866
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: panic in Japan in the late nineties. There was this

867
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: idea that there was an incident where an episode of

868
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: Pokemon supposedly caused seizures and kids and then, like I

869
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: believe it was something like I can't remember the exact

870
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: statistics off the top of my head, but something like

871
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: three thousand kids overnight claimed that they all had seizures.

872
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: So these kinds of you know, like like we were

873
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: talking about earlier about how our memory and trauma is

874
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: susceptible to suggestion and cultural nuances, Um, they recur over

875
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: and over again in human history. But I can't really

876
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: remember a large incident of that in the last I

877
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: don't decade other than ebolabola and uh and vaccines. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, movement, Well,

878
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: I guess on both sides depending yeah, yeah, So it's

879
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. They have not, and neither of those

880
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: I think really got the traction that stuff like satanic

881
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: panic did. And I don't know why that is. Um

882
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about, though, you know. Is it

883
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: is it because of the proliferation of social media it

884
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: spreads information faster and further, or is it uh, simply

885
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: because you know, mass media has been around long enough

886
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: now that there's somewhat of an innoculation maybe against the

887
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: hysteria that can be spread by it. I'm not sure. Well,

888
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: there's certainly more voices in the media. Yeah, I mean

889
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: they're more they're more channels, they're more people on the

890
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: channels talking constantly about the subject matter. So uh, you know,

891
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: maybe there's a be maybe our our media is less

892
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: susceptible to long term UM panic with no grounded evidence. Yeah,

893
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: it does. It does make you wonder like, could could

894
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: something like which trials or Satanic panic happen today? You know,

895
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: would are we as humans, uh susceptible to that? Still?

896
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: I have a feeling we are. I think it's a

897
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: lot of it comes down to the particular environment that

898
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: we find ourselves in. And uh and hopefully, I mean

899
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 1: hopefully we are a little less susceptible to it, just

900
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: based on how much information is out there. It just

901
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: comes down to how much information are we willing to

902
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: ignore to support this uh, this this this script for

903
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: what has happened or what could happen to us that

904
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: fulfill some need to either make the danger more tolerable,

905
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: you know, more palpable. You know. It's like like we're saying,

906
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: it's sometimes the the more outrageous explanation or something is

907
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: more attractive because it's it's easier to handle, because it's

908
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: it's it's that you position it outside of the atmosphere

909
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: and it has lines and boundaries that you can sort

910
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: of use to yeah to again, like stick to the narratives,

911
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: stick to the strip, to the script, and um somewhat

912
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: to try to understand experiences that are so horrifying that

913
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: normally otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand them. All Right,

914
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: So there you have it, Satanic panic. Um. We took

915
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: you through it from the beginning to the end of it. Uh.

916
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: And we would love to hear from any of you

917
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: out there who, like us, have some element of their

918
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: childhood immersed in the world of Satanic panic, or if

919
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 1: you came about after Satanic panic, but we'd love to hear,

920
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, an outsider's take on on all of this, UM, like,

921
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: do you see any of these elements at work in

922
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: your in your modern world? Um? If you would like

923
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: to learn more, check out the landing page for this episode,

924
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: it's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. I'll conclude

925
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: links out to some of the resources that we mentioned

926
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: and what about you, sir? You can find me personally

927
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: at Christian Sager dot tumbler dot com. Uh and UH

928
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: for the how stuff Works content that I produce. I

929
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: am primarily working on the brain stuff YouTube channel. If

930
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: you haven't seen that yet, check it out. That's our

931
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: general science channel. UH. And I also work on the

932
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: main house stuff Works YouTube channel as well, where we're

933
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: producing shows like what the Stuff UH and interviews and

934
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: content like that cool cool. Thanks much again to Christian

935
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: for joining me here UH. And in the meantime, you

936
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with me, you can reach

937
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: out to Stuff to Blow your Mind at how stuff

938
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

939
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com