1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Body Bats with Joseph Scott More. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 2: When I was little, I remember I attended let's see 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 2: what was it. I attended what they used to call 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: nursery school. I have a memory of that. And then 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 2: I went to a church school for kindergarten. And after 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: that I went to public school first grade, and I 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: didn't my granny would take me to school. Even in 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: the first grade, I didn't ride the bus. I guess 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: she felt like I was too young, and I probably 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: would I wouldn't let I don't think I put my 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: first grade on the bus nowadays. But you know when 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: I when I rode on a bus for the first time, 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: probably when I was eight or so, I really thought 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: that I had arrived. It was this thrilling thing, you know, 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: because you know you're going to get on the bus. 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: You're scared, but it's kind of cool. You know, you're 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: riding with other kids, maybe you're going down roads you've 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: never seen before, you know, and even though it's just 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 2: from you know, your bus stop to school or vice versa, 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 2: it was kind of a cool thing. And every day 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: I remember getting off the bus and some of you 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: can identify with this, and having my little book bag 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: in my hand and my lunch pail or my lunch box. 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: I was a fan of Fantastic four, so I had 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 2: a Fantastic four lunch box. And walking down the gravel 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: drive to our home, and I was a latchkey kid. 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: I let myself in. It fixed me something to eat. 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: And there was never like fear when I walked through 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: the door, never fear. I just knew that I had 30 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: come home. Imagine though, that you're five years old, five, 31 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: you've been at school, You take the bus home, and 32 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: maybe you walk up to the door, maybe the door 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: that's normally unlocked, because the neighborhood that you're in feels safe. 34 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: You make entry. Your mama is always there and you 35 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: call out to her, but there's no answer, just echoes. 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: You go door to door, and finally you walk into 37 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: your mama's bedroom and there she is laying on the bed, 38 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: hands bound behind. 39 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: Her back and a ligature around her neck, and she 40 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 3: is never ever going to say welcome home, baby, how 41 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: was your day? That'll never have happen again. 42 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: The case we're going to talk about today, that actually happened, 43 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: and it is incredibly tragic. And what's even more tragic 44 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 2: is that it has gone on for fifty two years. 45 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. How were 46 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: you when you first rode a bus? D Do you 47 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: have a did you like you were older? 48 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: No? Yeah, because when I grew up in southern California, 49 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: where we had neighborhood schools. So I walked to school 50 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: in kindergarten. But when I was in kindergarten, Joe, we 51 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: did half day. You had the morning kids in the 52 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: afternoon kids, and so I would get home, I guess 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: eleven thirty and then another set of kids would go 54 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: in and do the afternoon session. But yeah, we had 55 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: neighborhood things. I was like in junior high before I 56 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: ever wrote a school. 57 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: Both the bus, yeah, I had. The school I initially 58 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: went to was kind of out in the country, and 59 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: then we moved to town and I did walk to 60 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: school like my in the fifth and the sixth grade, 61 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: which again was kind of cool, you know, because there's 62 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: recid you walk with, right, you know. But yeah, it's 63 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: a it's a different it's a different feeling, and boy, 64 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: as a parent, that's really that's one of those markers 65 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: in parenthood where you're literally, you know, kind of pushing 66 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: your kid out the door. Yeah, and you're entrusting them, 67 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: you know, in the safe handling. You know, somebody else 68 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: is going to be taking care of them as they 69 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 2: get onto this big yellow bus. 70 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: It's so funny because of the world we live in 71 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: now versus well you and I grew up in. Because 72 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: now I noticed that in my neighborhood where we do 73 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: have children elementary, junior high, high school that do ride 74 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: the bus from here. And you know, we used to 75 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: when we did ride the US in junior high or 76 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: high school. We all walked to the school bus stop, 77 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, and for some it was a good bit 78 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: of a little block just to get to the school 79 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: bus stop. But now you don't see any kids walking. 80 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: You see them usually in my neighborhood anyway, they'll be 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: sitting in a car with their mom and then the 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: bus will stop. They'll get out of the car. 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: And get out of the car and go. Yeah. 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: But in this particular case, talking about a five year 85 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: old old boy, and that's the part that really is 86 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: sticking out with everyone who reads this. It's not just 87 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: you and me, thankfully, because if it was Joe, I 88 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: would be really worried about our world. I'm concerned, but 89 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: there are enough people that saw this and went, what 90 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: did this kid go through? Because his mom Okay, when 91 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: we're looking at Barbara Waldman's children, Okay, she had three kids. 92 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: Now you've got them at seven, six and five. And 93 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this that maybe maybe they had 94 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: that split schedule going on in nineteen seventy four, because 95 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: seven six and five and the five year old is 96 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: home first from the bus from kindergarten and finds Barbara 97 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: and the other two Marla and Larry come in later, 98 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: and they don't have any recollection of seeing by then 99 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: everything was shut down. 100 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: But Barbara Eric is fonder. 101 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, and that's you know, he said, 102 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: you know that this that his memory from five years 103 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: old on Joe of his mother is of finding her 104 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: tied up with her hands behind her back, shot in 105 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: the head. Yeah, and I'm sure that it was a 106 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: lot worse in terms of what you know, because I 107 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: can't imagine that now, I mean really and truly at 108 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: our age now, I have no ever walked in on 109 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: a scene like that. You have. We've talked about these 110 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: scenes a lot, but can you imagine how does a child, 111 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: how do they grow up and get past that, because 112 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: there's no book for that one. 113 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, And I reflect back to 114 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: a case I worked many many years ago, and it 115 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: was arguably one of the most haunting, haunting cases I 116 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: have ever worked, and it was actually involving a kid 117 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: who had been present at his dad's apartment. It was 118 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: like his dad's weekend and drug dealers came to his 119 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: dad's apartment and they made that kids stand next to 120 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: his dad as his dad was down on his hands 121 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: and knees on his knees, and they executed his daddy 122 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: right in front of him and that kid. When I 123 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: got to the scene, there's this classic there's this classic 124 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: scene from the original Halloween movie. I think it's from 125 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: the original Halloween movie where I can't recall, but when 126 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: Michael Myers, the you know, the antagonist in this thing, 127 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: they take the mask off this kid and he's standing 128 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: there with a knife in his hand. He's dressed up 129 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: like a clown and he had this vacant stare, you know, 130 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: just looked off into the distance. This case I'm talking about, 131 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: this kid was I think he was like seven or eight, 132 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: if I remember, and I remember seeing at scene and 133 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: had his dad's blood on him. And I don't know. 134 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: I've never been able to fathom how kids people bounce 135 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 2: back from something like that. I have no idea. I 136 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: don't know where you find the will to go on. 137 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 2: I mean when you're I don't know, maybe it's different 138 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: when you're a child. I can't imagine that it is, 139 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: but that's kind of seared into you know, in to 140 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: your into your brain. Uh you know that. That's why 141 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: it's so important I think, you know, for people. And 142 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: I'm going to wax philosophical here for a second, for 143 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: so indulge me. You know this, Eric had no idea, 144 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: this was He's only five, but you know the last 145 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: time that that's why, you know, I never walk out 146 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 2: the door now at this age, you know, with without 147 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: you know, embracing my wife, hugging or kissing. It doesn't 148 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: matter what what the temper around the house might be 149 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: or whatever. I'm not going to leave the house without 150 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 2: having said something kind, you know. And I see my grandbabies, 151 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: you know there, I have to hug them. I have 152 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: to have to love on them, you know, before I 153 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: send them out the door, because I just don't know. 154 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: And in this world. It's so crazy and just happens 155 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: every day. 156 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: Brother. 157 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: I mean, as you know, we covered all the time. 158 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: You never know when where the terminus is if you will, 159 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: and it does happen. And unfortunately for Eric, you know, 160 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: this happened fifty two years ago, Dave fifty two years ago, 161 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: and he's been readliving this in his brain. And I still, 162 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: you know, I have memories of things from childhood, and 163 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: I think that those things kind of morph, you know, 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: through time. I actually had a forensic psychologist, or she 165 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 2: was a trauma specialist. I was speaking to her one time. 166 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: She said that our brain layers on top of things, 167 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: and so those memories, the memories become tamped down. But 168 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: when you're traumatized, sometimes though, your brain has a way 169 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: of softening things or changing things so that maybe it's 170 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: not as horrible or not. I can't testify to that 171 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: because I remember things in my childhood that are pretty 172 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: horrible and I still remember them vividly. But to see 173 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: what Eric had witnessed all those years ago in Long Island, 174 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 2: New York, coming home from school, you know, getting off 175 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: the bus and going into his house and there's his mom. 176 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: She's just she's wrecked man. 177 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: But then it's even worse shoe. I mean, if you 178 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: can get worse than the finding, Okay, because and we're 179 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: going to share this with you now, because the reason 180 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about it is this case even though you 181 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: had I probably want to say fresh body, but you 182 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: had a good timetable for when this murder occurred, because 183 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, they know when all the children were at 184 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: home and when she was, when Barbara was fine, and 185 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: then they know when Eric got home from school midday, 186 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: mid morning actually, and so the law enforcement knew. We've 187 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: got this very small I mean, hour or two is 188 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: not a lot of time. On January eleventh, nineteen seventy four, 189 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: in this one neighborhood on Sally Lane in Oceanside, Long Island, 190 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: we have a murder that took place. It's a violent 191 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: murder and maybe maybe something that's been done before, because 192 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: usually a crime, a criminal doesn't start at the top 193 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: with murder. You work your way up to that usually. 194 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: In this particular case, what we do know though, is 195 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: that Barbara Waldman, at thirty one years old, was home alone. 196 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: She is the mother of three children, as we mentioned 197 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: earlier seven, six, and five, and her husband is a 198 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: dentist in town, doctor Gerald. Yeah, Gerald Walman, and that's 199 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: your setting. So when Eric got home from school, and 200 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, how the normal greeting would go, and 201 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: that didn't take place, Eric goes up the stairs and 202 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: finds his mother dead. Now we know very little of 203 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: what took place yet and after that, because as the 204 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: finder at five, I'm sure he was protected by everyone involved, thankfully. 205 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: So we don't know a lot of what happened in 206 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: those early moments, but we know that police were called. 207 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: We don't know how. We don't know if Eric picked 208 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: up the phone and called the operator or called I 209 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: don't know if you had nine one one in nineteen seventy. 210 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: Four, No, you would have had zero. 211 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so yeah, and very well, to be honest 212 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: with you, children were a little different in nineteen seventy 213 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: four than they are in twenty twenty six. Oh yeah, 214 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: at five. I don't know where he was coming from 215 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: or what he was capable of, but I know this 216 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: show that this man, at fifty seven has lived with 217 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: the last memory of his mother being like this in 218 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: this position. My memories of my mother when I was 219 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: five are not like that. 220 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: No, no, not, And you know that it's uh, I 221 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: don't know. The one thing, you know, you can use 222 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: terms like bravery and heroic and resilience and all those 223 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: sorts of things, but words fail in a circumstance like this. 224 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 2: You never know how maybe Eric's life specifically his siblings too, 225 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: but Eric in particular, how his life was molded in 226 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: the wake of this. What we do know is that 227 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: for the remainder of his life that he has lived 228 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: up to this point, and God bless him, it has 229 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: in fact been shaped. It's been shaped by the absence 230 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: of a mother, but also those things that he was 231 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: forced to behold because of what a monster did to 232 00:14:42,880 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: his mother. My understanding, Dave, is that there were bindings 233 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: that were used in this case. My the way this 234 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: thing has kind of described this case itself, Barbara's hands 235 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: were literally tied behind her back, and early on the 236 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: police had framed framed this case obviously as a homicide, 237 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: but had framed it in since that this was an 238 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: execution style homicide and not only a homicide, Dave, but 239 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: also a rape case. Oh yeah, yeah, go ahead, No. 240 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, because here's we have the strangled 241 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: with their own stockings. Yeah, sexual assault, Yeah, hands tied 242 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: behind her back. She's gagged with her hands tied behind 243 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: her back, and then she shot in the head. So 244 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: I might not trying to picture this. I'm just trying 245 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: to you know, had an idea because we do. As 246 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: you come into this scene, Joe, Yeah, the purp has 247 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: just done the most horrific thing you can possibly do. 248 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: And I'm picturing him shooting her in the back of 249 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: the head and not looking at her face after everything 250 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: he's done to her, he did he strangle her and 251 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: then shoot her. Was she already dead when she was 252 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: shot in the head or was she shot in the 253 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: head and the you know, if she was had a 254 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: garage around her neck. I mean, what was going on 255 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: with this? 256 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: Well here's something and many people don't think about this 257 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: when you have a rape homicide like this. We're going 258 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: to in the morgue and from a forensic pathology standpoint, 259 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: trace evidence standpoint as well, we're going to try to 260 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: assess any kind of trauma that she sustained below the 261 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: waist if you will, Okay, And you say, well, why 262 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: is that, Well, it's important I think because you can 263 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: begin to understand the nature of the individual. Now keep 264 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: in mind they did not have a suspect in this case. 265 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: Fifty two years agouse they had note and they had 266 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: not had a suspect in this case that we knew. 267 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: We'll get to that in just a second, all right, 268 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: because there is one person that a shadow was cast 269 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: over unfortunately. You know, one of the things that we're 270 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 2: going to that is done at autopsy in the post 271 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: warm examination, is that any kind of trauma in a 272 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: sexual case, you want to assess as to whether or 273 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: not that that trauma is anti mortem or post mortem. 274 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 3: And that's all. 275 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: That's a terrible thing to think about, but you have 276 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: to think about those things as an investigator because you're 277 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: looking for what their motive was. We know that obviously 278 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 2: restraint is in the mix here, okay, So you want 279 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: to try to uh decouple this individual from any the 280 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 2: victim from any opportunity to flee, So you want to 281 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 2: get her to submit. It's a classic asymmetrical event where 282 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: you've got a dominant individual that is going to attack. 283 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: You're going to do an extensive rape kit on a 284 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: victim like this, uh and looking for the type of 285 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: trauma that she may have sustained. In addition to that, 286 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 2: Dave here's another thing that we do with these restraints 287 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: that that are being mentioned, and they keep They've mentioned 288 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: stockings a couple of times. Uh, not a lot of 289 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: Not a lot of women wear stockings anymore. Remember you 290 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: to go to the store and they would have legs, 291 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: you know, the paint higgs. Yeah, yeah, and you don't, 292 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: you don't. You don't see that very often anymore. But 293 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: let's just making the assumption that these are pantyhose that 294 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: are used. You're going to look for trauma on the 295 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: wrist as well, Dave, because people struggle, you know, in 296 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: the event. Do you how extensive was this? Was there 297 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 2: a retine of the ligatures because sometimes or the restraints, 298 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 2: because that does happen. I've had cases as well where 299 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: if you have something around the neck that's being used 300 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: as ligature. I had one guy that I worked, I 301 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: know I've mentioned it before, but just indulge me where 302 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 2: he would uh he was a serial perpetrator where he 303 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: would loosen the ligature and then tighten it down again. 304 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: So you had multiple multiple furrows on the neck of 305 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 2: a lot of these victims. Because they're what they're doing 306 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: is they're releasing and tightening, releasing, and tightening because that's 307 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: part of their their sadistic motivation, you know, because literally 308 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: they have the power of life and death at their fingertips, 309 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 2: you know, where they can allow you to breathe or 310 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: not allow you to breathe. Wow, and not to mention 311 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 2: anything else that's going on. There's pummeling, you know, that 312 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: takes place where and you get an individual into a 313 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: dominating a dominant in a position, an asymmetrical position where 314 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: they can be dominated and they're lying on the surface 315 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 2: of say, for instance, of mattress or face down. Uh, 316 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: and you're attacking them like this. Uh. There's any any 317 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: number of areas of points of contact where you can 318 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: evidence the kind of trauma and the progression of the trauma. 319 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: And that's that's the big thing here, Dave, because it's 320 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 2: very interesting that this individual had the ability to take 321 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: life with with the ligature. Also, this idea of people 322 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: being gagged you're trying to muffle sound, and there are 323 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 2: number cases out there where people have literally died as 324 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: a result of having a gag in their mouth, where 325 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: that item that is being used as the gag, say 326 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: if it has like a bald up sock or something 327 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 2: like that, that's stuffed into the mouth and then you 328 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: tie a gag. You can have individuals that will get 329 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 2: that item back in their throat and they'll choke to 330 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 2: death on that. So you've got these multiple opportunities. It 331 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: could be beating, it could be manual strangulation with the 332 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: bare hands, it could be a literature. But then the 333 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: kind of coup de gras here is the fact that 334 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: she shot. You know, you've got kind of this triple 335 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 2: triple whammy that's going on here, So what would be 336 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: the individual's motivation for doing that? You know, and they're 337 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: hinting that this is an execution style murder, So anytime 338 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: you think about execution, you're thinking about gsw to the 339 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: back of the head. You've got the individuals in a 340 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 2: in a submissive position, and that would mean if she 341 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 2: is on a bed, she's lying on a bed, and 342 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: she is in fact shot, then she's going to be 343 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: faced down and this individual will be hovering over her. 344 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 2: Day would literally be hovering over her, maybe even on 345 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: top of her at this point in time when she's 346 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: in fact shot. So there's a lot, there's really a 347 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 2: lot to kind of bear down on from an investigative standpoint, 348 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 2: I don't think that there was anything actually taken from 349 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: the house. This is not like a burglary gone wrong. 350 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: I don't think it's a robbery scenario. I might be 351 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: way off based on that the police has not necessarily 352 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: released that kind of information. 353 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: Actually, I was able to dig up some of that. 354 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: The actual timeline is shocking Joe the minute by a 355 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: minute of what Again, it's difficult to prove, but based 356 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: on and you've taught me to look at when did 357 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: she die? 358 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? 359 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: How long had she been dead by the time they 360 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: got there? And I was going to ask you this 361 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: because what how can you as as as police officers 362 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: arrive on the scene, do they immediately begin documenting what 363 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: they see in the deceased individual so that it can 364 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 1: help you try to figure out when the violence occurred. 365 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is this is actually a case that 366 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 2: has got pretty tight. And you mentioned this earlier on. 367 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: This is very perceptive on your part. This is kind 368 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: of and I'll use a modern term, this is tightly 369 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: tom stamped m hm. Okay, because we know and the 370 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: reason it is because you and I both have mamas, right, right, 371 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: so we know in order to get out the door 372 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: during school year. All right, this would have been right 373 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: after Christmas break right. 374 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, January eleventh. 375 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the kids are going back to school or going 376 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: back to school. 377 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: Here's your minute by men and Joe just so you know. Okay, 378 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: at the police have it down to the two older 379 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: children leave for school between eight twenty five and eight 380 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: thirty five am. Kindergartener was already there. Eric was the 381 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: first one out, the five year old. All right. Now 382 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: he Eric was on a half day school, so he 383 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: got home earlier in the day. Where the older children 384 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: got in at three, He got in at eleven thirty. 385 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: So here's what they came up with. By eight forty am, 386 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: Barbara Waldman is alone inside the house. They suspect she 387 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: was doing normal things, maybe cleaning, preparing to run some errants. 388 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: Eight forty five a man is seen in the neighborhood. 389 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: A man is seen moving through the neighborhood, walking in 390 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: the area at eight forty five eight fifty to eight 391 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: fifty five am. The suspect approaches the Waldman residence on 392 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: Sally Lane, and investigators believe he was either attempting a 393 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: burglary or opportunistically targeting the house. After seeing Waldman alone. 394 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: The reason I'm bringing this up, Joe, We've been doing 395 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: the story about Nancy Guthrie and her kidnapping, and we 396 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: had had some suggestions that it was a burglary gone 397 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: bad from somebody at some point, you know, an expert, 398 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: and it makes no sense there. This doesn't make sense 399 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: either because nothing was taken and this individual is in 400 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: and out in a hurry. But the intruder enters the house, 401 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: likely through a drawer rather than smashing a window. They 402 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: believe that at nine oh one, between nine am and 403 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: nine oh one, Barbara Waldman became aware of this evil 404 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: presence in her home. A confrontation occurs. Evidence suggests a struggle, 405 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: indicating a violent struggle occurred. Waldman resisted, she was overpowered 406 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: by her attacker by nine three nine oh six am. 407 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: He restrains her using stockings taken from the inside the home, 408 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: binding her nine oh six to nine twelve am, Waldman 409 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: is sexually assaulted. While bound, the attacker shoots her in 410 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: the head at nine twelve to nine fourteen am, somewhere 411 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: in there where the shot kills her almost instantly. From 412 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: nine fourteen to nine eighteen, the attacker moves around the 413 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: house briefly. Investigators believe he may have been checking for 414 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: valuables or ensured that no one else was in the home. 415 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: Yep. 416 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: Nine eighteen to nine twenty. Suspect leaves the residence between 417 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 1: nine o'clock to nine eighteen and Eric, little five year 418 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: old Eric, gets home eleven thirty. Between eleven thirty and 419 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: noon is when that five year old boy's life, the 420 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: one he would have had ended and the one he 421 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: has had for the last fifty two years, began, and he, 422 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: the little five year old, discovers his mother's body and 423 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: shortly after twelve new police arrive and begin the homicide investigation. 424 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: This smacks day of a familiarity to me. It does, 425 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 2: because you know, this is this place has been characterized 426 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 2: as a safe place. This is not. You don't have 427 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: these kind of violent, violent events that are occurring here. 428 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 2: You've got a mother, You've got a nuclear family here. 429 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: You know, with dad going off to a dental practice, 430 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: he had to have left at some point in time, 431 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: probably adjacent to when you know the older kids were 432 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: heading out and after Eric had left, I would imagine, 433 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: because you know, with a dentist, you've got to roll 434 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: to the office of get I mean, you know, you're 435 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 2: gonna have TikTok TikTok. You've got appointments, You've got people 436 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: that are waiting, and they have a long day most 437 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: of the time, and so he would have he would 438 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: have left there, and it would have been very easy 439 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 2: for somebody to have watched the entire process of them 440 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: coming and going, primarily going from a distance, and maybe 441 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: had been watching them for some time day. This was 442 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 2: not something I don't think that that maybe they just 443 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: decided that day this individual had their gaze had fallen 444 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: on this family, probably some time prior to. They would 445 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: have to know when it was safe. You know, back 446 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: during this point, during these days, you know, back in 447 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: the seventies, you had a lot of stay at home moms. 448 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: The milkman still came around delivered milk. People still had 449 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: diaper services, not that you know, her kids are a 450 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: lot of diapers, but you know what I'm saying. You 451 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: still have people that would come and go to the 452 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: house and the idea that you know, it's she's defenseless 453 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: inside of the home, and this person who is an 454 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: absolute savage, based upon what he had perpetrated upon upon 455 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: Eric's mama, evidence would indicate to me at least that 456 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: he had been watching them for some time, and it 457 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: would not surprise me in the least that he had 458 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: probably been fantasizing about this, that he's got a streak 459 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 2: within him that's very, very violent, it's sadistic. He has 460 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: to have that stated in some way. I really wonder 461 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: if this individual had perpetrated any other kind of events 462 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: like this, because this is a really bold move right 463 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: out of the gate, you know, for somebody to take 464 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: these kind of steps and visit this kind of horror 465 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: in this family. But you know, the think about it 466 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: is this back then and you know certainly today, but everybody, 467 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: everybody out there that perpetrates the crime thinks that they're 468 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: going to get away with it. But the more personal 469 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: the crime, the more violent the crime, the higher the 470 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: probability that this individual and others like them are going 471 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: to leave something behind. And guess what he did, you know, Dave. 472 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: They spent a lot of time working on this case, 473 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: but to no end, And of course it wasn't until 474 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: years later that they could take these samples again. I know, 475 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: I beat this dead horse all the time. But whatever 476 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: you do as a police officer or as a forensic 477 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: technician many many years ago, echoes through time. The fact 478 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: that they were able to collect sufficient amount of biological 479 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: sample from this case really speaks to to how thorough 480 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: they were back then. Back then we were doing rape kits, 481 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: you know, that was that was pretty standard and did 482 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: them pretty much the same way they're done now so 483 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: far on the collection end, okay, nail scrapings, trimmings, just 484 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: you know, and of course the swabs that we do. 485 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: Back then, of course we were looking for, uh for 486 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: primarily secrets, any kind of blood typing that you could 487 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 2: do that would link back to a specific person. Part 488 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: of me wonders what else was retained in this case 489 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: because we had you know, we've got these bindings that 490 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 2: were used. We have. They certainly had a gag that 491 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: we talked about. But over a period of time, you know, 492 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: stuff gets lost, stuff that you know, would tie back 493 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: to an individual specifically from a DNA standpoint, And fortunately 494 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: they were able to have enough of a robust sample 495 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: where they could go back and do typing in this 496 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: particular case. 497 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: Right, you know. 498 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: The amazing part is that even though and this is 499 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: what always gives me Joe, even though the investigators did 500 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: the job. 501 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: You know. 502 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: They you mentioned how they worked this year leather to 503 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: break down the timeline getting to an eighteen minute window. 504 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: You know, that's tight. And even though there was somebody 505 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: a stranger quote unquote who was seen in the neighborhood 506 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: walking in the area, and they had plenty they had 507 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: a good description, but nothing came of any of that. 508 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: And yet they they being investigators, collected everything they could 509 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: and then it was taken care of over time. It 510 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: didn't just get tossed. They didn't look at it and go, well, 511 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: we gave it our all, we did our best, nothing 512 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: came back. We've got other crimes we got to deal with. 513 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: They had to have been very conscious of keeping all 514 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: of the records and keeping the evidence stored properly so 515 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: that when the time comes, and as it did, they 516 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: would have proper evidence to present so that this work 517 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: could be done. Is that a fair assessment of what 518 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: took place? 519 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is. And you know, kudos to them 520 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: on the tip of the cap, as I say in baseball, 521 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: to you know, to the police and the forensics people 522 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: that were involved in this case. The medical examiner back 523 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: then took it upon themselves to do such a thorough 524 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: job and not look, you can do a great job, 525 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: but it's a lot of it has to do with 526 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: how well you preserve the evidence and hold onto it 527 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: for a protracted period of time. We can go, you know, 528 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: we knock ourselves out in collection and do all that stuff. 529 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: But where the real tale of the tape is is preservation, okay, 530 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: And that that part from me is one of the 531 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 2: more amazing things, you know, when you see how well 532 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: some of these items, and these critical items were actually preserved. 533 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: But day we you know, they ran this as far 534 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: as they could. But the New York State Police decided 535 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: that along with with the local prosecutor, that they're going 536 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: to push this thing on out too, and they've partnered 537 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: with AUTHORM, our friends at Authorm, they've partnered with them, 538 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: pushed it out to them and our friends David Middleman 539 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 2: and Kristen Mettleman out there in the Woodlands, Texas. And 540 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: they got a hit on this case. 541 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: Dave, Isn't that crazy? Yeah, to cut right to the chase. 542 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: After fifty years, they finally found out that the suspect. 543 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: After fifty years, Yeah, the suspect was somebody who worked 544 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: as a garbage man, worked in that neighborhood, lived less 545 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: than a half mile away a couple. 546 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 2: Of blocks, yeah, just like five blocks. 547 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 3: Or something, yeah, away from. 548 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: Them, worked that neighborhood. He could have known, he knew 549 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: exactly how much time he had to get in and out, 550 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: and yet the investigation never ever zeroed in on him. 551 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: And they pointed out a couple of reasons for that, 552 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: the lack of DNA technology in nineteen seventy four being 553 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: a big one. But investigators said that, you know, this 554 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: is the person that they actually ended up arresting. He 555 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: had no major criminal record. How often does a guy 556 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: the guy's name is Thomas Generozzio, Generazzio, Okay, Thomas Generozzio. 557 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: And by the way, he's dead and not by the gun, 558 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: not by the sword. I believe cancer. He died. 559 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: And four this is like the second one we've worked 560 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: or covered recently where the person had died prior to 561 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 2: of cancer. But you know the thing about it is 562 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: is that this person got to live. Yeah, they got 563 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: to live. And I got to be honest with you, 564 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: I hope he lived in misery. I truly do. I 565 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 2: hope that he looked over his shoulder every single waking 566 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 2: moment of his life, because you know, I think about 567 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: Eric and his siblings and the hell that they have 568 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 2: been subjected to, loathed these many years. That little boy 569 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: that walked into that room that day back in nineteen 570 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 2: seventy four, that burden that he's had to bear. 571 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: Can I share something with you that Marla? Marla Waldman said, 572 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: as vig as children, we heard many times that people 573 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: were suspicious of my father and that he may have 574 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: had something to do with my mom's murder. This powerful 575 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: social mark of disgrace was heavy and hurtful to our family. 576 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: The victim's daughter, Marla Waldman's that her dad never ran 577 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: from the rumors. He stood proud, He stood tall because 578 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 1: he knew he didn't do it and was looking for justice, 579 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: not just for his wife, but for his children. 580 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: Yep. 581 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine the weight of the world this man 582 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: had to have been feeling every day. 583 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: I can't either. And you find out it was. 584 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: Somebody in your neighborhood pretty much that lives all the Joe, Yeah, 585 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: and he was there. The only reason they didn't catch 586 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: him is because he wasn't in any database. He had 587 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,479 Speaker 1: never really had any serious crimes there is no need 588 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: for his DNA to be in any database. That's why, 589 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: no matter when they ran it, Joe, this guy flew 590 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: under the radar for fifty years. 591 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: Fifty years and again lived his life. But you know, 592 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 2: I'm thankful that now as we are speaking right now, 593 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 2: that this case has in fact been resolved. And it's 594 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 2: because of our friends at Othram, of course, you know, 595 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: taking up the mantle that the police had done so 596 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: many years ago that they preserved the evidence, they preserved 597 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 2: enough of it to get it out to the woodlands 598 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: so that they could have a swing at this and 599 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 2: boy did they knock it over the fence. Fifty two 600 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: years later they came to a conclusion. And you know, 601 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 2: the beauty of this is that you hear us talking 602 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 2: about this, You say you like true Crome, You say 603 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: that you want to help. For me, this is the 604 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: best way to help that any of us, that any 605 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: kind of resource that you have. They're not asking for 606 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 2: bazillions of dollars here if you just got a couple 607 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: of bucks to throw their way, if you will just 608 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: visit their website, dnasols dot com, go on there. It's 609 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 2: actually broken down geographically. There are open cases that they're 610 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,959 Speaker 2: looking for contributions on just a few bucks their way, 611 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 2: and you know, you never know, it could it could 612 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: turn the tide in a case. There are people out 613 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 2: there that don't have the benefit. There are bodies out 614 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 2: there that don't have the benefit of some governmental agency 615 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 2: kind of you know, funding them behind them. And ATHORM 616 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 2: doesn't either author works on donations. They work based upon 617 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 2: who's going to step up to the plate and assist 618 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 2: with cases. Look for something in your area, if there 619 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 2: is a case that's unsolved in your state, you know, 620 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 2: look at it, see if it's something that you want 621 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 2: to contribute to. And they would welcome all comers, I 622 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: can tell you that. But now as we you know, 623 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: kind of shut the door on this case, i'd you know, 624 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 2: prayers for the Walden family. I hope that they do 625 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,439 Speaker 2: have some measure of peace, because as you know, there 626 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 2: is no such thing as closure. From my perspective, I 627 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: hope that they do find some level of peace there. 628 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: There's never any justice, it seems, in this world, but 629 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: maybe some peace. Maybe finally they can lay not only 630 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: this to rest in their mind, but maybe they can 631 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 2: find some quiet moments where they can reflect and think 632 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 2: about happier times. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 633 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 2: body Bags.