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Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the

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Speaker 1: Velvet's Edge podcast. My guest today is Phil Goldberg. Phil

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Speaker 1: is the author and co author of numerous books. He's

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Speaker 1: a public speaker, a workshop leader, a spiritual counselor, a

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Speaker 1: meditation teacher, and an ordained interfaith minister. You know, I

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Speaker 1: never really know how these podcast conversations are going to go,

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Speaker 1: so before I start, I'm wondering will my guests be

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Speaker 1: easy to talk to or will they be cold and

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Speaker 1: just answer the questions. This interview was such a pleasant

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Speaker 1: surprise in that way, and even more needed for me

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Speaker 1: than I actually knew. I felt seen and I felt connected,

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Speaker 1: which reminds me of why I do this podcast, why

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Speaker 1: I started a blog, and even why I ever enjoyed

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Speaker 1: any aspect of being on reality TV. It's the human

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Speaker 1: connection that happens when two souls open up about their

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Speaker 1: journey and share their vulnerability and in imperfection. It's funny

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Speaker 1: that I can't say imperfection. I said it imperfectly. I

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Speaker 1: found that today, and the bonus for me was that

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Speaker 1: Phil actually has tangible tips on how to make that

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Speaker 1: journey a little softer. So I laughed when I was

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Speaker 1: reading your bio just about how you got into writing,

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Speaker 1: how writing helps you get through school? It said throughout

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Speaker 1: his chaotic academic life, the one consistent element was phillips

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Speaker 1: writing skill. He got good grades despite lazy study habits

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Speaker 1: because he wrote so well that teachers thought he knew

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Speaker 1: more than he did. So before we talk about the

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Speaker 1: latest book, I want to give listeners a little background

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Speaker 1: just of how you landed on this path of being

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Speaker 1: a writer, and even more than that, just a spiritual writer.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that exists somewhere. It's on your bio, Yes,

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Speaker 1: on your website. Well, it's true. I was. I was

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Speaker 1: a student in the sixties and much more interested in uh,

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Speaker 1: changing the world and ending the Vietnam War and figuring

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Speaker 1: out the meaning of life and how to live it

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Speaker 1: then I was with my school work. So I was.

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Speaker 1: I didn't apply myself that well in school, and and

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Speaker 1: I always I wondered what to do with my life.

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Speaker 1: And I was interested in this, and then I get

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Speaker 1: interested in that, and I changed my major, and then

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Speaker 1: I go to graduate school and then go to a

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Speaker 1: different graduate school, and uh, I was just a curious

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Speaker 1: I was. I wanted to know things, and I get

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Speaker 1: this illusion and go on to something else. And it

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Speaker 1: never occurred to me that the one thing I did

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Speaker 1: consistently well and I always got good feedback on was

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Speaker 1: my writing. It never occurred to me that there was

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Speaker 1: a career choice until years later when I realized, you know,

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking maybe I should write something, and I

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Speaker 1: in retrospect, I realized that when I got good grades,

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Speaker 1: it was when I have to write a term paper

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Speaker 1: or an essay. And I I think to this day

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Speaker 1: that my whatever natural ability I had to put words

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Speaker 1: together in a readable way, influenced the teachers, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I sounded like I knew what I was and

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Speaker 1: I probably they were probably classmates who knew a lot

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Speaker 1: more than I did and studied more than I did,

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Speaker 1: but didn't write as well. And so you know, that

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Speaker 1: ultimately led me to say, maybe I should see about

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Speaker 1: writing professionally. And things came together that way, and the

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Speaker 1: spiritual part of it, which is UM has become a

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Speaker 1: major part of what I write about. UM was, you know,

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Speaker 1: the result of my own searching for UH answers to

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Speaker 1: the questions that were UH confusing me and plaguing me

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Speaker 1: when I was young and led me to m um

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Speaker 1: practices like meditation and the study of especially Eastern spiritual traditions,

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Speaker 1: and so they in recent years came together more and

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Speaker 1: I so I write about these things more than most

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Speaker 1: other subjects. Right, And You've written multiple books about different

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Speaker 1: spiritual topics. But the latest book is called Spiritual Practice

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Speaker 1: for Crazy Times. I was telling you before we started.

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Speaker 1: I've been reading it this past weekend. And what was

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Speaker 1: so interesting is obviously when I say to you right now, oh, yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: of course we need spiritual Practices for Crazy Times. But

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Speaker 1: you wrote this book before the pandemic hit, before it

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Speaker 1: actually got super crazy, And and then you commented in

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Speaker 1: the book that you didn't change anything, because in fact,

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Speaker 1: our world has consistently been crazier than maybe we give

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Speaker 1: credit to. Yeah. Um, I keep being the now that

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Speaker 1: the book is out. I keep being told what great

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Speaker 1: timing I had if I climbed it this way. You know,

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Speaker 1: it takes a long time to write a book and

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Speaker 1: go through the editing process and the proof reading process

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Speaker 1: and the printing process and everything else. So I completed

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Speaker 1: the book sometime towards the end of last year and

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Speaker 1: conceived of it when things were crazy enough and you know,

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Speaker 1: the spring of two fast and nineteen and UM. Just

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Speaker 1: for my observations, it seemed to be a book that

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Speaker 1: was needed. And then when I, UH, sometime in February

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Speaker 1: or March, we did the final proof reading, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: and by then, you know, they were locked sounds, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, should I change it? Should I change the

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Speaker 1: book in any way? And I realized that everything in

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Speaker 1: it applies, um. And the only thing in retrospect that

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Speaker 1: I would add because of the pandemic is that, UM,

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Speaker 1: the same practices that I'm advocating and giving guidelines for

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Speaker 1: in the book, for contacting what I call the sanctuary

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Speaker 1: of peace within us and the fortress of strength within us,

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Speaker 1: these practices are not only for self preservation but for

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Speaker 1: effective action in the world. And now I would add,

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Speaker 1: they'll also strengthen your immune system and and and give you, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the strength in your body and your your

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Speaker 1: resistance uh, not only to a potential virus but to okay, um,

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Speaker 1: the stress and anxiety that's so prevalent, even more so

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Speaker 1: now than when I wrote the book. But it's also

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Speaker 1: true that five years and ten years from now, the

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Speaker 1: same practices, the same ideas will still apply even if

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Speaker 1: times are good, but because in anybody's life, things can

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Speaker 1: get crazy at any moment. When you say that it

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Speaker 1: would be helpful to the immune system, can you explain

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Speaker 1: that a little more? When you when you say the

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Speaker 1: thing about these practices being helpful to your immune system,

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Speaker 1: could you explain that a little more? Yes. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to pretend I'm a doctor or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: but um, one of the things that is important for

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Speaker 1: for listeners to keep in mind is you know these

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Speaker 1: I call them spiritual practices, and they are I drew

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Speaker 1: from the world's spiritual traditions, especially the repertoire of practices

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Speaker 1: that come from India, from the yoga tradition. Because they

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Speaker 1: can be applied by anybody. It doesn't you don't have

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Speaker 1: to call yourself a spiritual person and certainly not a

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Speaker 1: religious person. So these methods have been proven useful in

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Speaker 1: a secular and scientific manner as well, and so many

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Speaker 1: doctors and psychotherapists now recommend practices like yoga and deep

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Speaker 1: breathing and meditation and even prayer for people who are

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Speaker 1: inclined in that direction, because scientific studies have shown that

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Speaker 1: they have a measurable physiological benefit. Uh. You know this

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Speaker 1: is this is research has been going on for nearly

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Speaker 1: fifty years now, uh and has gotten more and more sophisticated.

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Speaker 1: So that's you know, doctors say or meditate a learned

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Speaker 1: mindfulness for reducing stress. So the stress reduction part of

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Speaker 1: it and the changes that occur biochemically, UM, we can

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Speaker 1: infer and scientists have that they would strengthen the body's

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Speaker 1: resistance to disease and UM mental disturbances and all the rest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that people talk enough about

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Speaker 1: the effects of stress on the body and in the

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Speaker 1: amount that we just go, go, go, go go. It's

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Speaker 1: been an interesting time in this pandemic because we've sort

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Speaker 1: of been forced to stop and sort of look at

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Speaker 1: some of those things. UM. I do feel like as

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Speaker 1: a society we want to quick fix typically. So this

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Speaker 1: book it's full of tips and like different different things

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Speaker 1: to put into spiritual practice. But is there one thing

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Speaker 1: that you would say, you know what this is? This

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Speaker 1: is what you do you to find peace during a

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Speaker 1: crazy time. The centerpiece to me of developing a spiritual repertoire.

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Speaker 1: And if I have to say one thing, it's investigate

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Speaker 1: these methods that I'm recommending, and go beyond my book

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Speaker 1: and investigate other things you know that are available online

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Speaker 1: um and develop an inventory of practices that you can

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Speaker 1: draw on as needed, whether you have thirty seconds or

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Speaker 1: an hour or a day. These for restorative purposes, for

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Speaker 1: protection purposes, to find refuge in this time, there's a

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Speaker 1: variety of methods we can employ. I also say that

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Speaker 1: in that context, doing something consistently having a spiritual practice

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Speaker 1: routine what in the East is called a sodden uh

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Speaker 1: uh to do every day, usually in the morning or

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Speaker 1: twice a day. If if you can as maintenance as

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Speaker 1: ongoing maintenance, as a routine, just as you brush your teeth,

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Speaker 1: just as you shower, just as you change the oil

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Speaker 1: in your car, to do something, because doing something some

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Speaker 1: of these practices on a regular basis strengthens the body's clarify,

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Speaker 1: clears up the mind, and brings out the inner piece

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Speaker 1: that you already have within you. If you get the

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Speaker 1: trash and garbage out of the way. And and in

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Speaker 1: that context, you know, if I have to say do

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Speaker 1: one thing, it's learn a deep meditation practice and incorporated

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Speaker 1: into your life in the time, you can allot to

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Speaker 1: it and think of it as an investment of time,

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Speaker 1: an investment in your own well being that will make

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Speaker 1: you whatever keeps you busy in life, your work, your job,

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Speaker 1: your parenting, your so your work in the community, whatever

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Speaker 1: it is, you will do it better. You will have

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Speaker 1: a little more peace, a little more clarity of mind,

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Speaker 1: a little calmness. Uh. If you also incorporate into your

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Speaker 1: life these moments of going within, I call it a

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Speaker 1: spiritual two steps. You go within, you come out and

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Speaker 1: do your work more effectively than not escapes. They're not

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Speaker 1: ways of you know, turning off the world, except temporarily

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Speaker 1: you tune out, you tune into your own inner piece,

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Speaker 1: and then you come out and you can engage the

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Speaker 1: world more effectively that way. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of us can benefit from that, but so can

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Speaker 1: the world. You know, the more people that do that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned this in the book and on a This

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Speaker 1: is how I felt about meditation. Um. Probably, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've only I've been meditating now about two years and

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Speaker 1: I am finally after two years, finding a practice that

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Speaker 1: seems to be working for me consistently. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: was one of those people who was just like, you know,

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Speaker 1: what I just I don't. I can't meditate like I'm

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Speaker 1: not good at it. It is not it doesn't work

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Speaker 1: for me. So what would you say to people who

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Speaker 1: are listening right now, thinking here we go again, Like

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Speaker 1: everyone's just saying, meditate to find peace. You know, what

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Speaker 1: would you say to that? I'll say the same thing

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Speaker 1: I've been saying for fifty years, because I've been hearing

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Speaker 1: it that long. Um. There are meditation practices available out

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Speaker 1: there in the vast marketplace of mind body offerings that

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Speaker 1: are difficult to do. There are also practices that are

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Speaker 1: so easy to do they are deceptively effective and powerful

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Speaker 1: because they are easy. I go into this in in

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Speaker 1: some detail in the early part of my book, but briefly,

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Speaker 1: the practices that are traditional and natural and taught by

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Speaker 1: a qualified person. I've been doing transcendental meditation since nine

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Speaker 1: I was trained as a teacher of it. That's an

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Speaker 1: example of an effortless, easy way to practice. And if

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Speaker 1: you examine the rationale for having an natural and easy

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Speaker 1: process as opposed to a difficult one that requires a

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Speaker 1: lot of mind control, you realize that you'll have more

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Speaker 1: rest and relaxation and calm with a practice that involves

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Speaker 1: no control, no stren who is focusing in concentration. There's

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Speaker 1: a place for the others, but they're best done I

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Speaker 1: think under careful supervision. So I would tell your listeners

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Speaker 1: to look for a qualified teacher or teaching that emphasizes

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Speaker 1: ease and naturalness as opposed to rigorous concentration. The problem

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Speaker 1: arises when people think they don't need instruction, that all

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Speaker 1: you have to do is quiet your mind. Well you can't,

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Speaker 1: and just you can't just do that without a method,

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Speaker 1: and that's why instruction. So people sit down and SAYOK,

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Speaker 1: I'll try quieting my mind. They find out that it's difficult,

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Speaker 1: and they say, well, I'm not cut out for this.

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Speaker 1: But in my experience, if you get proper instruction, and

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Speaker 1: I have proper instruction in the book, only it's in

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Speaker 1: written form. So I've just as a for your listeners

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Speaker 1: to know, I've created an audio version of some of

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Speaker 1: the practices, and um I made that available free for

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Speaker 1: anybody who buys the book, and they can go on

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Speaker 1: my website and do that. M But that's the main point.

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Speaker 1: Anybody can meditate, but you need proper instructions, just like

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Speaker 1: anybody can drive a car. But you need proper instruction. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was an interesting point you made in the book

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Speaker 1: because you said, we just expect ourselves to know how

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Speaker 1: to do this, but it's like anything else in this

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Speaker 1: world where you that's why you suggest having a guide

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Speaker 1: or a teacher, because just like everything else, we have

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Speaker 1: to learn how to do it. And there are different

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Speaker 1: methods and different things work for different people, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you you made a good point. Everybody wants an

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Speaker 1: instant fixing, and unfortunately the media, especially magazines and you know,

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Speaker 1: newspaper columnists and all that, um, they exacerbate the problem

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Speaker 1: by saying, here's how you meditate, and they give you

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Speaker 1: like two points and think you should go do it,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's a more nuanced uh practice and

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Speaker 1: so it requires a little bit more instruction that you

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Speaker 1: don't you don't tell somebody you go do you turn

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Speaker 1: the key this way, you step on the gas and

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Speaker 1: you dry. You need to know what is transcendental meditation?

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Speaker 1: What what does that intel? Well, that's you know, by

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Speaker 1: now a very familiar practice, UM. That involves the use

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Speaker 1: of mantram in meditation, and mantra being a traditional sound

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Speaker 1: uh that have certain effects inside and it's kind chacterized

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Speaker 1: by ease of practice and naturalness, and um, it's one

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Speaker 1: of the forms I advocate because on if you get

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Speaker 1: proper instruction, you can just then do it on your

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Speaker 1: own for the rest of your life and get the

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Speaker 1: get the benefits which have been quite well researched. That's

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Speaker 1: actually I didn't realize that's what I'm doing, but I

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Speaker 1: met with a yoga energy meditation teacher and she did

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Speaker 1: that for me, and we have a mantra now and

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Speaker 1: it's been interesting because um, sort of like you said,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't really completely quiet your mind, but

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Speaker 1: it is interesting once you become aware of that process

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Speaker 1: what happens. And for me, I don't think I realized

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Speaker 1: the amount of stress that I carry around all the time,

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Speaker 1: or just like you know, once I started doing this practice,

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Speaker 1: my fuse is a little bit longer, maybe it would

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Speaker 1: be a good way to describe it, um, But you

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Speaker 1: don't realize it until it's gone. Like I didn't even

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Speaker 1: realize how quick to jump to anger or any sort

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Speaker 1: of anxiety or fear that I was until this practice

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Speaker 1: actually started working in my life very good. So you've

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Speaker 1: had that experience that people don't Here's how I would

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Speaker 1: say it, Um, you didn't. In a good form of meditation,

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Speaker 1: you don't quiet your mind. The mind becomes quieter by itself.

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Speaker 1: Any if you do, you're not making an effort to

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Speaker 1: make them mind quiet. Will get get get these thoughts

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Speaker 1: out of here, get it, go away, go away. No,

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Speaker 1: that that only agitates you. But a good form of

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Speaker 1: meditation will just allow the mind to become quieter and

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Speaker 1: also relax the body at the same time. Right, That's

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Speaker 1: what I've noticed for sure. One of the beginning chapters

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Speaker 1: of the book, you talk about equanimity, and I find

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Speaker 1: I find this to be you know, it would be

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Speaker 1: a goal of mine, and I think that the super

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Speaker 1: e evolved. Peaceful people that I know think about life

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Speaker 1: in this capacity. But basically, the way you describe it

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Speaker 1: would be that you take the good and the bad

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Speaker 1: all all equally. Like you just look at both all

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Speaker 1: situations and you say, okay, like that is what it is,

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Speaker 1: and you go about your day. So can we talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that? Why? First of all, how

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Speaker 1: do you get there? Excuse me? Um, many many years ago,

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Speaker 1: when I first started investigating these spiritual traditions, I came

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Speaker 1: across a passage in the bugabud Gita where talked about

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Speaker 1: yogis having equanimity in gain and loss, victory and defeat,

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Speaker 1: pleasure and pain, and I said, that's what I want. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the world is always going to give you pain and

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Speaker 1: difficulties and challenges, and you're going to get upset. How

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Speaker 1: can you maintain equal enmity? And it disappointed me that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't instantly have that when stuff happened

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Speaker 1: in the world, you know, But I realized over time,

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Speaker 1: by doing these practices on a regular basis, I had

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Speaker 1: more of it. I was more likely to go through

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Speaker 1: a difficult experience and maintain some inner quiet and inner piece,

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Speaker 1: or if I lost it entirely, it would come back

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Speaker 1: a little bit more quickly. My equanimity would come back

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Speaker 1: a little more quickly than it did before. And that's

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Speaker 1: It's an ongoing process. Um it's a gradual process, an

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Speaker 1: ongoing one. And in the moment, you can do something

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Speaker 1: about it by remembering that you do have a sanctuary

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Speaker 1: of peace within yourself that you have been cultivating. If

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Speaker 1: you've been doing spiritual actuses over time, you you've been

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Speaker 1: cultivating access to that inner piece, and you lose it

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Speaker 1: at times when stuff happens. But you remember, if you remember,

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Speaker 1: when you remember, oh I can, I can come back

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Speaker 1: to that. And then there are methods, methods to do

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Speaker 1: in the moment when there's a old chapter on it

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Speaker 1: that that I call um when the blitz at the

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Speaker 1: immediate interventions to do, or you could just say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I'm really upset. I know I have this

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Speaker 1: piece within me. I gotta retain my regain my balance.

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Speaker 1: I have to re ground myself. I have to get

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Speaker 1: my my soul back in shape. And so you take

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Speaker 1: a break and you say, you know, let me do

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Speaker 1: some breathing exercises, let me go walk in the park,

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Speaker 1: see nature that will restore me. Let me listen to

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Speaker 1: me music even three minutes, whatever it is. That's why

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Speaker 1: I advocate having an inventory at your disposal, so when

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Speaker 1: stuff happens, you can choose the suitable one or the

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Speaker 1: one that fits your circumstances at that moment. But the

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Speaker 1: regular spiritual practice, like the one you've embarked on, we'll

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Speaker 1: just increase your odds of maintaining equanimity when stuff happens.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, I've been doing these things for fifties

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Speaker 1: years now, not to give away my age, but um,

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Speaker 1: you know, like many people in my nineties sixties generation,

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Speaker 1: I took practice this up and I put them into

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Speaker 1: my life. But even today, you know, I'll go watch

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Speaker 1: the news and you know, I'll just want to scream,

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Speaker 1: but I'll regain that equanimity. And I know also that

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Speaker 1: by continuing with these practices, I just increase my odds

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Speaker 1: of staying saying, staying healthy, staying peaceful despite what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Not that I ignore it, not that I don't pay attention,

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Speaker 1: but that I can do that from a calm place,

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Speaker 1: and I can do and by being more calm, by

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Speaker 1: being having more presence of mind, I can take proper

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Speaker 1: action instead of you know, you know how if you

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Speaker 1: get upset and angry, you make bad choices, and yeah

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Speaker 1: we all do. But if you if you just delay

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Speaker 1: that reaction long enough to restore some balance and some

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Speaker 1: inner peace and then take the action, you won't exacerbate things.

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Speaker 1: You'll say the right thing, you won't do something you

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Speaker 1: later regret. Um. So that it's not only healthy to

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Speaker 1: maintain equanimity, um, it's more effective. You know. You see,

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Speaker 1: even parents who you know love their children, but the

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Speaker 1: kid d upsets them and they lash out and then

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Speaker 1: they regret it. Well, you know, if you have a

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Speaker 1: habit of being able to respond to crises and still

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Speaker 1: maintain some calm or rhistoric fairly quickly, then you're less

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Speaker 1: likely to do that. I mean, I always think of

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Speaker 1: athletes in that way. You know, they are always athletes.

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Speaker 1: We call them clutch performers, you know, when things are

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Speaker 1: really tense, when things are in a crisis, those are

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Speaker 1: the people you give the ball to and we want

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Speaker 1: it would be good to be the person, you know,

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Speaker 1: who can do the right thing at the at the

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Speaker 1: right moment. Like that, you pointed out that life is

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Speaker 1: just always gonna throw us different things, because I think

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Speaker 1: when I started started what I would call my spiritual journey,

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Speaker 1: I just I was like, Okay, I'm facing life with

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Speaker 1: this um new mentality, this new mindset, and somewhere inside

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Speaker 1: of me, I wasn't really fully aware of this until

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Speaker 1: it came up later, but I just thought life was

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Speaker 1: going to get easy, and so you know, so whenever, yeah,

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Speaker 1: whenever hardships happened, I felt myself up so resentful almost

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Speaker 1: and just angry and frustrated. And what I'm realizing as

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Speaker 1: I get older, is that these tools, these practices, these

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Speaker 1: things we put into place in our lives on a

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Speaker 1: daily are just that. Therefore, the days that are so hard,

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Speaker 1: they're the ways we get back to our mental calm. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily like that life is just going to

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Speaker 1: get so easy because you learned these new tools. Did

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Speaker 1: you experience that as well? Yes, you are exactly right.

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Speaker 1: I'm mentioned in the book that that passage about having

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Speaker 1: equanimity and lost, and in my brain somewhere I read

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Speaker 1: that as it won't be lost, there won't be defeat,

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Speaker 1: it won't be pained. No. Sorry, the world is what

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Speaker 1: it is, and um, people are going to get sick

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Speaker 1: and loved ones are going to die, and relationships are

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Speaker 1: going to break up, and you know you'll you'll have

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Speaker 1: success and you'll have failure, and you know that's just

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Speaker 1: the way it is. You may increase your chances of

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Speaker 1: things going well. I think people on a spiritual path

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Speaker 1: notice that. But it doesn't mean bad stuff not going

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Speaker 1: to happen. Of course it is, and that's just it's

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Speaker 1: just a spiritually mature place to recognize that that's the case.

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Speaker 1: But then how do we react to it. What do

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Speaker 1: we then, how do we respond? What resources inner resources

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Speaker 1: do we bring to the situation? Right exactly? And that

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Speaker 1: kind of brings me to this the next point that

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Speaker 1: I found so fascinating, um, and just in the power

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Speaker 1: of our minds and even the power of perception. Um.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, that wasn't something that I was even

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Speaker 1: aware that I thought, and until something bad happened and

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Speaker 1: then I was like, wait, what how is this you know,

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Speaker 1: happening in my life? But what I've now I am

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Speaker 1: aware of is like every day the messages that happened

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Speaker 1: in my mind too. And um, how I kind of

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00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: want you to just talk about that because you have

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Speaker 1: a whole chapter in this book about how powerful the

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Speaker 1: messages in our minds are, Like how we could look

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Speaker 1: at the same situation on a different day and our

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Speaker 1: reaction could be completely different because of how we're perceiving it.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: And there's two things to be said about that. One is, um,

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Speaker 1: let's take that example. I just of of a parent

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Speaker 1: the kid has a temper tentrum or whatever, and the

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Speaker 1: parent just gets angry and you know, resentful and whatever.

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Speaker 1: On a different day, if the parent, we're in a

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Speaker 1: better mood, or you know, had slept well the night before,

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Speaker 1: or you know, did spiritual practices or whatever. The same

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00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: temper tentrum would have may have brought out love and

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Speaker 1: compassion instead of anger. Same kid, same activity, same situation,

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00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: but the response is different because the parents condition of

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00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: mind and body was different at that moment that it

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00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: was a different day. So that's part of it. Cultivating

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00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: the benefits of spiritual practices that we've talked about makes

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00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: it more likely that you'll respond in an appropriate way

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Speaker 1: than in a destructive way. You'll see it different, You'll

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Speaker 1: perceive it differently instead of somebody being uh uh, somebody

430
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: you you blame or you feel angry towards you may

431
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: have more compassion and understanding. But the other pieces to

432
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: shift perception in the moment, so you find yourself polluting

433
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: your own system with thoughts of anger and resentment, uh uh, disappointment, anxiety.

434
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: You can shift if you have the awareness to see

435
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: the same situation slightly differently. I compare it to one

436
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: piece of that to taking the elevator up, so you

437
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: you have a bigger perspective. You see the same situation

438
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: going on, but now you see more, you see different

439
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: connect actions, you see a different span of time, um

440
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: and therefore your understanding of the situation might be better.

441
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: And we can also just shift the attention so that

442
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: we somebody upsets us, we hate somebody, We turn on

443
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: the television, we see the politician we hate, and we

444
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: get angry and we get upset. The opposite of that

445
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: isn't oh I love that person, because that's artificial, that's

446
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: not real. You can't just pretend to love somebody you

447
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: really hate or resent. You can't love somebody you think

448
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: is doing harmful things. But you can shift it to

449
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: say instead of I'm angry too, there's a lot of

450
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: anger coming up in me. What can I do with that?

451
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: How can I direct that? Or I'm really instead of oh,

452
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: I'm anxious and worried. It's there's a lot of anxiety

453
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: and fear coming up in this situation. What can I

454
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: do to change it? And that's a shift, that's a

455
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: shift of mindset that makes you less of a victim,

456
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: and it's a channel. It can be easily channeled into

457
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: something you know that can make a difference in your

458
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: life instead of just welling in it and letting the

459
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: negative energy spread its toxins throughout your system. It reminds me.

460
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: I have a friend who says, stay curious, Like in

461
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: all situations, just stay curious because we don't really know,

462
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, why people are doing what they're doing or whatever,

463
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: or even if it's about your own response to a person,

464
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: like you're saying, like I feel anxious, I feel mad,

465
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: Just stay curious about that? What is that? What's behind

466
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: that for you? But I have a hard time balancing

467
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: processing through my emotions to get those out of my body.

468
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: And then this thing that you're talking about, the staying

469
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: curious piece of that. Do you have any recommendations for

470
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: balancing those two? Yeah, I don't see any reason you

471
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: can't do both. And um, if I were still writing

472
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: my book, i'd steal your friends suggestion. I I My

473
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: version of that was to create to turn everything into

474
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: a learning experience. Yeah, and that's you know, staying curious

475
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: as a way of doing that. What what what is

476
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: there to learn about myself, about the world, about the

477
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: other person in this situation. And by making it a

478
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: learning experience, making it part of your curriculum, you the

479
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: mental energy and it also probably changes the brain chemistry

480
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: so that it's less toxic and what you said, getting

481
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: rid of the emotions. Yes, sometimes we're so riled up

482
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: and there's so much going on, you know, emotionally that

483
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: we need to do something physical. So you know, maybe

484
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: if for some people just getting on the floor and

485
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: doing a series of yoga practices would do, maybe you

486
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: need something more vigorous so you know, if you're a runner,

487
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: you go run. If you're a walker, you take a

488
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: brisk walk in in some peaceful place. Um, if you're

489
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: a you know, athletes, you go play some ball or

490
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And if you're really upset and crazy,

491
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: go someplace quiet where no one will hear you and

492
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: beat up a pillow. It's just expel it. Get it. Yeah,

493
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: scream and holler if you have to, but you know,

494
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: get it out, and that you'll have that catharsis. You'll

495
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: have that, you know sort of, you'll you'll purge, you know,

496
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: system of some of that energy and then you'll be

497
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: able to more properly evaluated and take the next step. Yeah.

498
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: I like that because a lot of times for me,

499
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: until I beat the pillow, I can't get curious about

500
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: why I'm so mad about something. You know, It just

501
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: my brain can't go there quite yet, because the way

502
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: that my head works is I'll just case build. It's

503
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: just constantly well, then there's this and that and that

504
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: and that, and it doesn't do me. I'm not curious

505
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: at all about what I have to learn about the

506
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: situation because your mind, your mind is clouded toxic emotion exactly,

507
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: and getting rid of it, and so you know, I

508
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that. In the book, people think, oh,

509
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: virtual practice, it's all about just meditation and mindfulness and

510
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: prayer and being calm. Well, you know, sometimes shouting from

511
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: the rooftops is a spiritual practice, and you know there's

512
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: precedent for that and all the spiritual traditions. You know,

513
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: if your listeners are familiar with the Bible, there's plenty

514
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: of you know, profits raging, you know, raging at the world,

515
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: raging at God, ranging at the King's you know, and

516
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: that's not an unspiritual place to be, you know. Sometimes

517
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: you know, you there's something to be said for you know,

518
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: letting it out, uh, And it's not necessarily you know,

519
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: non spiritual. When I think spiritual, I think of peaceful

520
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: and just the meditation types that they were talking about.

521
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: But I like that that any sort of that can

522
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: be a spiritual practice as well. Um, if you if

523
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 1: you hold it in that then it is. And there's

524
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: also you know, the spirituality of seeking justice and speaking out.

525
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: I mean Dandhee and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandelo.

526
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: These were you know, deeply spiritual people, but they took

527
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: a stand and they know. I want to talk about

528
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: just the importance of relationships our spiritual practice because I

529
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: don't think that I thought about that until until I

530
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: read your book. And um, it is interesting because spirituality

531
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: is such an individual thing and you you actually say

532
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: on the spiritual path, we are alone and we can't

533
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: do it alone, which I found to be super That

534
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: just hit me so hard because when I think about

535
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: my growth spiritually, I mean, it's obviously a very individual

536
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: thing and ultimately it's between you and whatever your higher

537
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: power or universe or whatever God you want to call it.

538
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: But I have grown the most spiritually with others or

539
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: in relationship. So can you speak a little bit to that. Yeah,

540
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: and you nailed the paradox or when you quoted me

541
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: on that, because you know, spirituality is a deeply individual thing.

542
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: And you know, we're all on our own paths, every path,

543
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: everybody's path is different, and we all have our own curriculum.

544
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: As I say, you know is spiritual spiritual practice. The

545
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: spiritual path is independent study. So you you have your

546
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: own curriculum. But at the same time, we need teachers,

547
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: We need people who know things we don't. We need

548
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: spiritual companions, people to share these things with, people to

549
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: learn from, people to help, because we learn when we

550
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: also share and help others. And we might in many

551
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: cases need spiritual community. Whether you know you're part of

552
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: a congregation or you're just people you you hang out

553
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: with at the meditation center or the Ogus studio or

554
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Some form of community is very helpful

555
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: on the path. Um. These are all part of it.

556
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: Plus relationships, intimate relationships, family relationships, friendships, UH, community, the neighbors.

557
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: All of these things UH put our spirituality to the test.

558
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: They call upon us to be kind, to be compassionate,

559
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: to be understanding, to be generous, and those are spiritual

560
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: acts in themselve alls and their barometers of our own progress.

561
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: Plus the love and compassion we receive helps us spiritually

562
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: because we exist, We're not living in caves. We exist

563
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: in you know, within relationship and for many many people,

564
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: the presence of the divine, however you choose to see it,

565
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: is often brought out in the most immediate ways in

566
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: these loving relationships. There's nothing more devotional than the love

567
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: of a parent to care for a child. There's nothing

568
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: more selfless than the acts of generosity and care and

569
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: concern we give to our loved ones. And so that's

570
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: why I have a practice the whole chapter on relationship,

571
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: and I also bring out the pitfalls of being in

572
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: spiritual community, of having spiritual teachers and who to trust

573
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: and you know, uh, spiritual communities can be perilous in

574
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: many ways because they you know, things are expected of you,

575
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: or you may have to uh put up with people

576
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily approve of, or you may be disillusioned.

577
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: There's many, many pitfalls, but they're worth uh contemplating and

578
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: being aware of and being part of. And one of

579
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: the things I talk about is forming your own you know,

580
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: spiritual support group to talk about your practices and your experiences.

581
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: Maybe you know read books together that feed your in

582
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: your knowledge base and your souls. Um. So, yeah, you know,

583
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: being in community being in relationship is in many ways

584
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: of spiritual practice of its own. Well, that kind of

585
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: goes back to finding what works for you as well,

586
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: because I think for every different person, and you know,

587
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: the group that you find or the relationships that work

588
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: for you spiritually are different. So it's not like you

589
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: can map out what that would look like for any

590
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: one person. No, there's no one size fits all in

591
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: any of this stuff that I write about. It's It's

592
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: one thing I've learned very clearly over the years is

593
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: everybody's path is different, and the you know, practices that

594
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: work for one person might be you know, peripheral or

595
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: not effective for somebody else. And you know, everybody's relationship

596
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: to their spiritual companions, to religious and spiritual institutions, they're

597
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: all different. And self awareness, self inquiry and being true

598
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: to yourself is terribly important in all of this. Yes,

599
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: I agree. The book is called Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times.

600
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: It's out now, Um, Phil, Where else can people find you?

601
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 1: I know you have the spirit Matters podcast as well, right, Yes,

602
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, the free podcast that I co

603
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: host called spirit Matters. Um. You can find it online

604
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: or subscribe. Go to spirit Matters Talk dot com or

605
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: subscribe to it. There's a archive of a couple of

606
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: hundred great interviews with spiritual teachers. Um and my website

607
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: is Philip Goldberg dot com that has a you know,

608
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that I try to keep current, interviews,

609
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: interviews and links and courses, you know, stuff about my

610
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: books and upcoming nowadays. I was I was about to

611
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: say lectures and workshops. They're all online. They're all on

612
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: line nowadays. UM So, yeah, those are the ways. And

613
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: if anybody wants to connect with me, they can do

614
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: it through the website. And if they want, you know,

615
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: if they buy the new book and I want that

616
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 1: recorded meditation, there's instructions on the site. Wonderful. I mean,

617
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: obviously these are crazy times right now, so I do

618
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: highly recommend the book if you're feeling just a little

619
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: um like you need a little extra boost. I feel

620
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: like you give a lot of good tips and different ideas.

621
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: It's not just about meditation. That's one piece of it

622
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: that we talked about, but there's a lot of other

623
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: really great tips and just different mentalities that I think

624
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: would be really helpful now. But also, like you said

625
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: in the book, I mean these practices. They really can

626
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 1: last a lifetime and they're not specific to just what's

627
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: happening right now in this crazy time. Thank you. You're

628
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: absolutely right. You know, if I were writing a book

629
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: called Spiritual Practice for Good Time, it would it would

630
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: include a lot of the same things, right exactly. Well,

631
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being here and having this conversation

632
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 1: with me. You guys, go out and get the book

633
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times. I'm gonna put the link

634
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: in the bio to this podcast. UM I highly recommend it,

635
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: and again, thank you for being here, and thank you

636
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: guys for listening. Thank you Kelly