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Speaker 1: Hey, hey, aba fam, It's time for another Halla Back Monday.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, The One, the Only Mandra is joined

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Speaker 1: by Shine, the creator of the online platform flyin Nance

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Speaker 1: Finance is dedicated to helping nine to five ers earn

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Speaker 1: more money so that they can build wealth, effortlessly, learn

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Speaker 1: all about how to career pivot, negotiate a higher salary,

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Speaker 1: and get out of debt.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so give it a listen.

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Speaker 3: Hey, hey, hey va fam. I cannot wait to introduce

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Speaker 3: you to today's guest. She is someone who I have been cyberstocking,

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Speaker 3: not in a creepy way, in a totally cool way

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Speaker 3: for a long time. I feel like she is my

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Speaker 3: nine to five hottie partner in crime.

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Speaker 2: She's me.

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Speaker 3: I think we have so much in common with the

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Speaker 3: way she's approached her career and her inspirational message of

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Speaker 3: how anyone out there, even if you're working nine to five,

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Speaker 3: you can still build wealth. I am so happy to

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Speaker 3: welcome Sania to the show. Sania founded Nance, which is

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Speaker 3: an online platform dedicated to helping ambitious working women, who

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Speaker 3: she calls nine to five hotties, effortlessly build wealth and

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Speaker 3: say yes to more travel. She's a product manager and

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Speaker 3: she's worked at major companies like AMX and MasterCard, and

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Speaker 3: she has grown her salary four x in just four years,

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Speaker 3: became debt free, and managed to reach one hundred K

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Speaker 3: net worth by the tender age of twenty six years old.

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Speaker 3: Her story has been featured everywhere from GMA to CNBC

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Speaker 3: and now she's on Brown Ambition. So now you've made it, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I know GMA is like.

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Speaker 3: Cool, but come on, it's Brown Ambition for legends right now.

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Speaker 2: That's a fast I'm jan girling very hard inside. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much, Mandy.

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Speaker 3: Likewise, Cinia, it's such a pleasure to have you on

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Speaker 3: the show. First and foremost, thank you for being I

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Speaker 3: feel like I've been banging this druma of quit your

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Speaker 3: way rich like kind of alone, and there's this like

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Speaker 3: stigma around telling people to quit their jobs. Talk to

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Speaker 3: me about and you're you know, you're a few years

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Speaker 3: younger than me, right are you?

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Speaker 2: How old are you?

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Speaker 3: If you don't mind, I'm twenty seven right now, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so you're a few years younger. It was around my

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Speaker 3: mid twenties when I started making those really you know,

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Speaker 3: strategic quits, and I quit six times in a decade

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Speaker 3: of my career. Now, I was in journalism, and I

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Speaker 3: remember my little brother kind of telling me like, why

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Speaker 3: do you want to go into journalism? Do you not

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Speaker 3: want to make money? And I remember thinking, listen, I

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Speaker 3: tell stories. I'm gonna go for it. And I managed

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Speaker 3: to quit and increase my wealth along the way. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't like the traditional traditional career trajectory or the

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Speaker 3: traditional industry you would think you could build wealth in.

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Speaker 3: Now you chose tech or did you tell me a

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Speaker 3: little bit about your career journey where you started and

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Speaker 3: when you started to realize, oh, I can quit and

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Speaker 3: actually build wealth here.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I love this question. So my career really actually

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Speaker 4: started in financial services. I landed my very first job

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Speaker 4: at Ames on a product management team totally by chance, right.

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Speaker 4: I did not know anything about what I wanted my

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Speaker 4: career to look like when I graduated from college and

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Speaker 4: grad school. This was around twenty seventeen, right, so product

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Speaker 4: management wasn't quite the hot, buzzy you know, career choice

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Speaker 4: that it is today. So at that point I was

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Speaker 4: just happy to have landed my first big girls salary

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Speaker 4: and to land on a team with really great leadership.

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Speaker 4: But as I kind of spent more time at AMEX

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Speaker 4: and really learned that, hey, product management is not only

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Speaker 4: something that's very strategic, it is something that I really enjoy.

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Speaker 4: I really feel like this is like my zone of genius.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of when I started to see that, Wow,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of opportunity out here for me, and

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Speaker 4: a lot of opportunity for me to grow and pivot

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Speaker 4: my career. Right, I don't just have to stay at

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Speaker 4: this one company. I don't just have to stay in

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Speaker 4: this one type of work. So I think tech was

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Speaker 4: always kind of something I was drawn too, really curious about,

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Speaker 4: so I really spent more time.

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Speaker 2: I would say as I.

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Speaker 4: Became, you know, a bit more comfortable with my career

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Speaker 4: my skill sets, to say, hey, I can take the

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Speaker 4: skills that I have as a product manager even though

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Speaker 4: I've only ever worked at big banks and turned that

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Speaker 4: into a career in tech. So I would say that,

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Speaker 4: you know, my my pathway from graduating school in twenty

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Speaker 4: seventeen to today has been very serendipitous. I've leaned very

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Speaker 4: heavily on my network and really just kind of putting

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Speaker 4: myself out there for opportunities and to the question around

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Speaker 4: you know how I've known when.

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Speaker 2: To make these strategic jumps.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, it's been like a gut feeling, right, And we

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Speaker 4: can definitely talk more about this, But I think for me,

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Speaker 4: even as a young black woman.

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Speaker 2: Very rarely was I ever encouraged to leave a job. Right.

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Speaker 4: I left my first job in twenty nineteen. I was

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Speaker 4: like twenty four years old, right, So I remember having

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Speaker 4: bosses be like like, oh my gosh, are you sure

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Speaker 4: you want to do this right? Very much a lot

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Speaker 4: of a lot of that uh you know, a lot

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Speaker 4: of that language around kind of almost like kind of

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Speaker 4: wanting to shame me for wanting to make these kind

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Speaker 4: of decisions.

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Speaker 3: This go ahead, okay, young blood, go ahead, you're gonna leave,

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Speaker 3: You'll come.

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Speaker 4: Back literally no, literally literally that I feel like that

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Speaker 4: was definitely that was definitely the energy. But I think

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Speaker 4: for me, especially around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, when I

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Speaker 4: first started to learn about financial freedom and the Fire movement,

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Speaker 4: I really saw myself being someone that could take advantage

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Speaker 4: of that lifestyle of being able to grow my income

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Speaker 4: keep my expenses relatively the same.

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Speaker 2: So how was I going to do that?

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Speaker 4: I had to make more money so that meant having

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Speaker 4: to make some of those quote unquote calculated risks to

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Speaker 4: say maybe I need to go somewhere else to make

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Speaker 4: more money to build my skill set. And that's kind

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Speaker 4: of the energy that I've taken with me for the

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Speaker 4: past four and a half five years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so what did you study in college? And you

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Speaker 3: said you went to grad school? What did you study?

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Speaker 2: So in college, I studied Africana Studies.

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Speaker 4: I loved it, I absolutely loved it, but there was

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Speaker 4: definitely no immediate professional ROI right, It's like most of

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Speaker 4: my most of my peers who majored in Africana studies

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Speaker 4: are you know, obtaining PhDs right now or or work academics.

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Speaker 3: They want to teach and be in academia forever.

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Speaker 4: Literally, I feel like most of my peers went like

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Speaker 4: the Melan maze academia academia away, and then a few

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Speaker 4: of us kind of went into more like social justice

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Speaker 4: nonprofit work.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm probably the only.

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Speaker 4: Person from my class that actually ended up pivoting working

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Speaker 4: in corporate and definitely today working in tech.

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Speaker 2: And then graduate school actually did a one year master's,

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Speaker 2: my Masters of Sciences and Business Management, so kind.

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Speaker 4: Of gave me more of that business acumen, more of

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Speaker 4: those practical skills, and I think more of that confidence

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Speaker 4: to say, you know, I spent four years in undergrad kind.

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Speaker 2: Of shying away from you know, more quant.

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Speaker 4: Heavy subjects right as an Africata sci.

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Speaker 2: Major.

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Speaker 4: So I think that master's program really kind of gave

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Speaker 4: me that confidence to say, hey, yeah, I can do excel.

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Speaker 4: I can you know, I can read financial charts, which

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Speaker 4: I think really helped me pivot and land an American

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Speaker 4: Express as my first job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think that's wonderful because a lot of people, I

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Speaker 3: mean I do a lot of career coaching, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of women maybe they study something and they or

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Speaker 3: they have experience in a certain field and they want

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Speaker 3: to pivot into a new one. So for sure, I mean,

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Speaker 3: talk to me about the interview process when with you

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Speaker 3: with your Africana studies background. Did you go back to

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Speaker 3: get your MBA because you were struggling to find work

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Speaker 3: or was that just part of the plan. You know,

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Speaker 3: this will help me as I interview.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So when I was a senior in college, I had

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Speaker 4: no idea what I wanted to do professionally. Right, I

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Speaker 4: to this really great school. I went to Barnard. I

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Speaker 4: was at this really great school but had no job offer,

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Speaker 4: and so senior fall I really started to think, Okay,

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Speaker 4: I have two choices, right, I can either try really

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Speaker 4: hard to convince an interview or on the other side

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Speaker 4: that this Africana Studies degree can help me work in

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Speaker 4: a more business aligned job, or I can see, hey,

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of At that time, there were

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Speaker 4: a lot of these programs kind of popping up at

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Speaker 4: Duke wake Forest and other kind of business schools, kind

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Speaker 4: of giving people like me non traditional backgrounds, lower arts backgrounds,

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Speaker 4: and opportunity to break sort of speak, break into more

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Speaker 4: business focus fields.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually what I ended up doing. I ended

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Speaker 2: up taking.

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Speaker 4: I ended up deciding to get my master's right out

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Speaker 4: of undergrad one because it was fully funded, right, so

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Speaker 4: I received a full ride fellowship, and then two because

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Speaker 4: to your point, I really did struggle, I guess kind

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Speaker 4: of telling my story really to the point where I

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Speaker 4: could land offers. Right, So I did a lot of interviewing.

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Speaker 4: I was interviewing for a lot of rotational associate programs

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Speaker 4: at that time because I felt like I had a

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Speaker 4: lot of skills and didn't really see myself narrowly fitting

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Speaker 4: into one right now, In hindsight, I wish someone would

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Speaker 4: have told me, hey, you could be a product manager,

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Speaker 4: but that was never something that I even knew about.

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Speaker 4: Right So that's why I decided to get my master's.

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Speaker 4: It was fully funded. It gave me an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: be a student again, something I'm really good at. I'm

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Speaker 4: really good at rechurch regurgitating information. But it also gave

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Speaker 4: me a chance to kind of like have another year

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Speaker 4: to kind of figure things out and be in that

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Speaker 4: position where, hey, jobs are coming to me, you know,

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Speaker 4: recruiters are looking for me I'm a student, which which

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Speaker 4: really helped me in terms of my interview process.

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Speaker 2: I casted a really wide net.

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Speaker 4: My master's program was done at WAKE four, so I

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Speaker 4: was in Winston Sdale and North Carolina, and I did not.

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Speaker 2: Love it down there.

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Speaker 4: So I was pretty much putting out increes connections my

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Speaker 4: resume to as many companies in the New York area

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Speaker 4: as I could. And how I had to landed up

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Speaker 4: at AMX was actually through networking. I met a lot

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Speaker 4: of different people across AMX, but one person in particular,

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Speaker 4: we really built a really great relationship and it just

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Speaker 4: so happened around the time that I was about to

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Speaker 4: graduate from my master's program.

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Speaker 2: I really needed a job.

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Speaker 4: She made her own personal decision to lead AMEX and

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Speaker 4: to leave New York City, and she recommended me for

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Speaker 4: her job. So that is literally how I ended up

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Speaker 4: on a product management team, on a high profile product

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Speaker 4: management team at American Express.

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Speaker 2: Is my first job.

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Speaker 4: By networking, hustling and building relationships and a little bit of.

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Speaker 3: Luck, yeah, I mean, and thank you for giving a

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Speaker 3: shout out to Lady Luck, because it is a piece

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Speaker 3: of it. I mean, it's also open. It's also kind

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Speaker 3: of approaching your career in a way that you leave

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Speaker 3: room for luck, and you leave room for that uncertainty,

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Speaker 3: which if you're someone who's like obsessed with doing things

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Speaker 3: on a certain schedule, it's very uncomfortable for you. But

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Speaker 3: it's hard to articulate that too. That you have to

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Speaker 3: put your best foot forward, like you said, the build

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Speaker 3: those relationships, but then you got to wait for an opportunity, right,

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Speaker 3: and a little bit of is luck. And how wonderful

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Speaker 3: that someone was able to kind of put you in

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Speaker 3: that position for success when you so going from kind

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Speaker 3: of liberal arts to sitting down at a financial services company.

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Speaker 3: What was that transition like.

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Speaker 4: So I will I will say I think that one

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Speaker 4: year and my master's program really set me up well

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Speaker 4: for success.

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Speaker 2: Now I will say I'm an overachiever.

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Speaker 4: So I was that person even in this really intense,

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Speaker 4: you know, master's program that I always pushed myself for more.

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Speaker 4: So I ended up graduating the top of my class

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Speaker 4: for my master's program, was inducted into Beta Gamma Sigma,

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Speaker 4: which is a business honors society. So I took my

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Speaker 4: studies really seriously. I really took that year really seriously

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Speaker 4: to learn and absorb as much as I could. And

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Speaker 4: I think as a result, when I you know, got

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Speaker 4: to financial services, got to AMMEX and here I was

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Speaker 4: doing analytics, right, I was in Excel. I was, you know,

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Speaker 4: having to create really educating create stories for my team

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Speaker 4: around the data that was coming back from our car members.

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Speaker 2: Like it was kind of easy, right, because I'd spent this.

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Speaker 4: Year really really trying to build up these skills that

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Speaker 4: I felt like I didn't really have a chance to

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Speaker 4: practice an undergrad And I think as a result, I

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Speaker 4: think that that's why I was really successful at AMES.

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Speaker 2: I think one being really sad for success.

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Speaker 4: But I was also extremely lucky to land on a

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Speaker 4: team where I had really strong leaders and women leaders

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Speaker 4: who really were invested in me being successful, right, who

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Speaker 4: mentored me and said, yeah, I know, this is your

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Speaker 4: first corporate job, and this is how you can do

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Speaker 4: things right. This is the brand and the culture at AMEX,

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Speaker 4: and this is how you can show up and show

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Speaker 4: your best self. Right, And that really helped me. Right,

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Speaker 4: Even as I think about my experience as a young

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Speaker 4: black professional at ames and the short amount of time

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Speaker 4: that I was there, I think I was able to

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Speaker 4: get promotions and have really high profile opportunities because I

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Speaker 4: had such strong leadership and strong mentorship and sponsorship. Right that,

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Speaker 4: as I looked at some of my other peers, who

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Speaker 4: were just as intelligent as me, just as capable as me,

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Speaker 4: not having those pieces, especially in a corporate culture like AMEX,

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Speaker 4: I think kind of kept them from I think, getting

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Speaker 4: some of the markers of achievement and success that I

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Speaker 4: think that they were really owed. So I would say

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Speaker 4: the transition wasn't It wasn't too tough, but there was

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Speaker 4: definitely a learning curve, as there is any time you

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Speaker 4: join a new organization.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a couple of things I want to talk go

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Speaker 3: back to you really quick. You mentioned a fellowship that

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Speaker 3: got you a full ride scholarship or how did you

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Speaker 3: How did you find that opportunity to get your degree

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Speaker 3: paid for? Because I think that's important for listeners to

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Speaker 3: maybe get a tip from that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the tip from that is put yourself out

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Speaker 4: there for any and all opportunities.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean the opportunity that.

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Speaker 4: Allowed me to get a full ride fellowship to get

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Speaker 4: my master's program actually goes back to even when I

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Speaker 4: was applying to colleges in high school. I was that

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Speaker 4: girl that went to the library, got a scholarship book,

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Speaker 4: knew my parents could not afford to send me to college,

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Speaker 4: and just applied to everything that I was eligible for.

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Speaker 4: One of those things was being a part of the

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Speaker 4: rom Brown scholars Network. Now I was not a rom

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Speaker 4: Brown scholar. I did not receive all of the money,

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Speaker 4: but I was a part of their network and took

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Speaker 4: advantage of all the opportunities that they would send to

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Speaker 4: students in the network. Right, So I ended up getting

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Speaker 4: an internship one year in college through that network, and

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Speaker 4: they were also partnering with the wake Ford School of

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Speaker 4: Business to promote this new program and promote the fellowship.

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Speaker 4: So when I saw that, it's like free ride, y'all

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Speaker 4: are going to pay for my room and board and

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Speaker 4: I can get a master's.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna do this. So that's what

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I had the delusional confidence that I

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Speaker 4: was exactly I was going to be picked right, Like

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Speaker 4: I went into my interview saying, when I am a

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Speaker 4: corporate fellow for this program, these are the people I

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Speaker 4: want to sponsor me, right, And I think that confidence

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Speaker 4: and I think my my persistence, I think is what

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Speaker 4: helped me get that right. So I think the tip

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Speaker 4: there is anytime you see an opportunity, don't be afraid

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Speaker 4: to go for it, right, especially as women, as women

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Speaker 4: of color, especially as Black women, we receive so many

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Speaker 4: messages that tell us we're not worthy enough, we're not

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Speaker 4: capable enough. But I think I've always kind of kept

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Speaker 4: with myself that hey, if I see something that's out

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Speaker 4: there that speaks to me, I'm going to put myself

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Speaker 4: out there because I never know what can come out

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, my seventeen year old self set my twenty one,

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Speaker 2: twenty two, and now twenty.

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Speaker 4: Seven year old self up for so much success and

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Speaker 4: she didn't even know it back then.

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Speaker 3: Oh, baby Sania, Thanks baby Sania.

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Speaker 2: Look what you've shot up to her? All right?

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Speaker 3: Another thing that I was thinking while you were speaking about,

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Speaker 3: you know, you being and thank you for pointing out

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Speaker 3: the importance of those relationships and having sponsorship and actually

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Speaker 3: putting your best foot forward to build those relationships and

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Speaker 3: not necessarily being the person. You get a job and

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Speaker 3: you come then and you just think you're going to

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Speaker 3: quietly sit in your cubicle and that someone will just

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Speaker 3: tap you on the shoulder and say you you, we've

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Speaker 3: noticed you. That's not how it happens. Building relationships is

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Speaker 3: so important and getting that sponsorship did that make it?

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Speaker 3: And this is I'm going to ask you this question.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I'm asking is because I think you

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Speaker 3: and I both agree that when you quit jobs, there

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Speaker 3: is that perception that you know or you're often told,

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Speaker 3: be grateful, be loyal. People took a chance on you,

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Speaker 3: and you had people who were going to bat for

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Speaker 3: you within your company at amex SO, but you still

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Speaker 3: left And I love that. So talk to me about

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Speaker 3: your decision around leaving and why when, what all that stuff?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so let me set the scene for you. So

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Speaker 4: my decision to leave AMEX the very first company I

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Speaker 4: ever worked at, and to your point, where I had

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Speaker 4: a lot of brand equity, right, not just on my

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Speaker 4: immediate team, but I had leaders across the company who

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Speaker 4: knew me, believed in me, were putting me in a

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Speaker 4: position to when I think it started to conflict with

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Speaker 4: my holistic vision of what I had for myself, and

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Speaker 4: that was to become more financially sound. That was to

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Speaker 4: start building wealth. That was to have more money that

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Speaker 4: I could get over some of the financial challenges that

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Speaker 4: I felt like I was kind of in. Right, So

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, I now had spent a year working full

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Speaker 4: time and I was fucking my money up, right.

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Speaker 2: I was bad girl.

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Speaker 4: That was just kind of like, yeah, it's okay, I

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Speaker 4: have my first set of credit cards.

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Speaker 2: I'm just fat online, you know. Yeah. I was bredging

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Speaker 2: real hard. I was ubering really hard. Oh these were

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Speaker 2: the days of uberpool. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: Right, So I was having a good time, right, I

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Speaker 4: was having a great time in New York. I would argue,

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Speaker 4: as you should have done, but yeah, yeah, definitely, And

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Speaker 4: I don't regret those times at all. But as a result, right,

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Speaker 4: not having any type of financial acumen when it came

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Speaker 4: to money management, I put myself into a lot of debt,

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Speaker 4: and it was debt that I couldn't afford to pay

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Speaker 4: when I kind of looked back at and those times,

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Speaker 4: it was like, Hey, I have this decent salary. I

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Speaker 4: have a great salary as a single woman in New York,

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Speaker 4: but I have nothing to show for it. I don't

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Speaker 4: have any savings. Now I have all this debt that

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Speaker 4: I put myself into. I don't have anyone I can

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Speaker 4: go to and be like, oh, mom and dad, can

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Speaker 4: you say me a small loan of ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 4: to pay off these credit cards?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 4: It just wasn't It wasn't a thing, right, So that

384
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Speaker 4: was a big wake up call for me, Right, Yeah,

385
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Speaker 4: that was a big wake up call for me.

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Speaker 3: It was about ten thousand dollars of credit card debt.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I had I one summer I put myself in

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Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars a credit card debt.

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Speaker 3: So, wow, tell you was living really good? Did you

390
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Speaker 3: take a vacation?

391
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Speaker 4: I was traveling, I was sing out, I was going

392
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Speaker 4: to Pollo Classic, buying one hundred dollars bottles of Bilfleco

393
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Speaker 4: like I was living.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I was living. I was living right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't say that now, but I mean in

396
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Speaker 4: the moment, I had a lot of shame around it, right,

397
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Speaker 4: Like I had a lot of shame around around my

398
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Speaker 4: money mistake.

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Speaker 3: You were tender swindling yourself pretty much that summer. Wait,

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Speaker 3: so what was your salary at AMEX though?

401
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Speaker 4: So when I around this time, I was making seventy

402
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Speaker 4: two thousand dollars.

403
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Speaker 3: That's not jabby at all for your first at all

404
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,119
Speaker 3: out of college. I was making at all. Well, you

405
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Speaker 3: got about I got about eight years on you. But

406
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Speaker 3: I came into I came to Manhattan making forty five k.

407
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 3: But my problem was I'm from Georgia and I had

408
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Speaker 3: a Georgian mentality about salary. So I thought forty five k.

409
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Speaker 3: I was like, maybe I made it. I'm here, but

410
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 3: now don't worry. My expectations are definitely on the New

411
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Speaker 3: York level. Now, all right, So you had this debt,

412
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Speaker 3: you were still making a decent salary, But was your

413
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Speaker 3: career move purely about Okay, I'm going to increase my

414
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 3: earnings and I can't get it quickly. Enough here at AMEX,

415
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Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to go somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Right.

417
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Speaker 4: So I got a little sidetracked when I was telling

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Speaker 4: you a story, right, I wanted to set the scene though, Right.

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Speaker 2: So twenty eighteen, I put myself into all this debt.

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Speaker 4: Twenty nineteen, I end up getting connected with the financial advisor.

421
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 4: I start learning about fire, I start following all these

422
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Speaker 4: personal finance accounts on Instagram. I'm just like, oh wow,

423
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 4: I can do this, Like, okay, let me start to

424
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,919
Speaker 4: kind of figure out, like what does it mean to

425
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:51,639
Speaker 4: live on a budget?

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is not so hard.

427
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 4: Okay, I actually have more money at my disposal that

428
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 4: I could be putting towards like my future self. But

429
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 4: I've been overspending so much that I don't even see

430
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 4: that it's there. Right, So this is kind of twenty nineteen.

431
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 4: I spent that year really kind of learning a lot

432
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Speaker 4: about my own spending habits, triggers traumas, and also learning

433
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Speaker 4: about future state where do I want to be? And

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Speaker 4: at this time, I'm like, Okay, I was promoted at AMX,

435
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 4: so now I'm a manager. I ended up getting a

436
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 4: parity raise, so at this point. I'm making actually right

437
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 4: under six figures. I'm making around ninety nine thousand dollars,

438
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 4: still have a lot of discpolsal income, and I'm like, okay,

439
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 4: this is great.

440
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,679
Speaker 2: I really want to become debt free.

441
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 4: So in addition to the credit card debt that I mentioned,

442
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 4: I also did have some student loan debt from from

443
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 4: my years in school right that I was kind of like, this.

444
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: Isn't like a super big deal. But for me, I'm

445
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: an overachiever.

446
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 4: I want to become debt free, like I want to

447
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 4: be able to have that major bump to my net

448
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 4: worth growth. So this is twenty nineteen and now twenty

449
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 4: twenties approaching. Obviously had no idea what was around the corner,

450
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 4: But at the beginning of twenty twenty, I'm like, Okay,

451
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 4: I want to set a really ambitious goal for myself

452
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 4: of paying off all of my debt in one year.

453
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: I'd spent a year working on a budget.

454
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 4: I feel like I can do this twenty three thousand

455
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 4: dollars in one year on my salary.

456
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: It's going to be a stretch.

457
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 4: I'm actually probably short some so I need to make

458
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 4: more money. You know, I'm doing great work at ames

459
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 4: I'm working on.

460
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: All these strategic projects.

461
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 4: I just got promoted in a year that almost never happened,

462
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 4: and then I'm having these conversations with my leaders and

463
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 4: I'm just like, yeah, so, like, let's talk about career progression,

464
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 4: Like what is it going to take for me to

465
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 4: get to senior manager that's the next level on AMEX.

466
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 4: It was just kind of all like, oh, yeah, you know, yeah,

467
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 4: we just promoted you a year ago. Oh well, But

468
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 4: I think also the writing was on the wall, right

469
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 4: that I could see other professionals, even on my team.

470
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 2: Right, who.

471
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 4: Had kind of matriculated even before me, that they were

472
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 4: not being hunted down for promotions, right. So I also

473
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 4: had this sense my own self awareness to say, Sis,

474
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 4: the longer that you stay here, the longer these people

475
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 4: and pay with your money. Right, It's like all of

476
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 4: those things that you were talking about in terms of

477
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 4: this idea about loyalty, this idea around like paying your dues,

478
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 4: this idea of oh, we need to make sure that

479
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 4: the people who are more senior get their chance, right,

480
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 4: headcount can only go so far.

481
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: All of those things were embedded into the culture at.

482
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 4: AMEX, and I just kind of realized like, I want

483
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 4: to make more money, not just for money's sake, but

484
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 4: because I want to become debt free, because I know

485
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 4: that I now feel like I had the skills to

486
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 4: be able to put this money to good use for

487
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 4: my future self. And also I just feel like it's time.

488
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 4: Right I'd spent three and a half years at AMEX,

489
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 4: I felt like there's more out there again leaned on

490
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 4: networks right. So I ended up actually landing my next

491
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 4: job at MasterCard through a connection that I had at Columbia.

492
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 4: I went to Columbia for undergrad a fellow alum. Her

493
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 4: team was hiring. They were looking for someone with my expertise,

494
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 4: a product manager, ideally a woman of color who had

495
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 4: my financial services background. I interviewed, the interview process was

496
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 4: really smooth, and literally got my offer before New York

497
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 4: City went into shutdown. So I like to say that

498
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 4: I was one of the first people to create the

499
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: exodus that has now happened at AMEX, especially amongst professionals

500
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 4: of color. I was probably one of the very first

501
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 4: people to leave AMEX and the pandemic because I ended

502
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 4: up putting my two weeks in right at the end

503
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 4: of March twenty twenty, and for me, it wasn't just again,

504
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 4: it wasn't just purely about.

505
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 2: The money piece, right.

506
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 4: I knew I was leaving behind all these great relationships,

507
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 4: but it was also just like I had this gut

508
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 4: feeling that I wanted to do something else. And you know,

509
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 4: I feel like I'd heard this idea all the time, Right,

510
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 4: you have to be the driver of your own career.

511
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 4: You have to be in the driver's seat. And I

512
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 4: just felt this urge to say, this.

513
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: Is a calculated risk.

514
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 4: Right, I'm going to another big financial services company that's

515
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 4: going to pay me more, that's going to give me

516
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 4: a chance to also develop my skills as a product manager.

517
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: What do I have to lose? Right? And it was

518
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: definitely the best decision I made for myself.

519
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: Can I just mention too that a lot of times

520
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: we put too much I think a lot of especially women,

521
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: put way too much value in the stability of a

522
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: job itself and how a job is stable, and you know,

523
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 3: and not recognizing that you are your own stability at

524
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 3: the end of the day, Like even with you, Sania,

525
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: you're the fact that you have an MBA, the fact

526
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: or you have a business administration a masters in that

527
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 3: you have this college network, you've done so well in

528
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: you know your school, You've built relationships professionally. Like that

529
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: is resiliency. And at the end of the day, is

530
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: it a risk take a new job? Sure, but also no,

531
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: because you can get laid off and I'm sure you'd

532
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 3: bounced right back off bound bounce right back because you have,

533
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 3: you know, this foundation of success yourself. All right, ba fam,

534
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break. This is brown ambition. All right,

535
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 3: ba fam, we are back now. I want to ask

536
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 3: you what was the pay jump? Because I love I

537
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: feel like any anytime we can like share how much

538
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 3: of a jump we made by quitting, it's powerful because

539
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: I mean, in my experience, maybe you can agree with me,

540
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: we'll see, but the biggest pay raise has come when

541
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: you are ready to leave and move to.

542
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: An Absolutely I totally agree with that, Mandy.

543
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, So when I left Amex, I was making just

544
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 4: under one hundred thousand dollars, I was making around like

545
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 4: ninety nine thousand some change. By joining MasterCard on the

546
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: team that I was on again, also being a product manager,

547
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 4: which is seen as more technical, therefore more strategic and

548
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 4: worth more, I increased my base salary by thirty two

549
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 4: thousand dollars, and then when I kind of throw in

550
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 4: the fact that I also got a bonus at the

551
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 4: end of that year.

552
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: In total, I ended.

553
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: Up earning an additional fifty thousand dollars by leaving Nice.

554
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: So when you negotiated a new offer MasterCard, what was

555
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: that experience like? Now, did you have to fight for

556
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: that thirty two and was there any talk of signing

557
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: bonus equity other incentives that you know you were able

558
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 3: to ask for.

559
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, So when I negotiated my offer at Mastercred, I

560
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 4: was I'm very happy to say that I had a

561
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 4: recruiter who was very direct, very transparent, so it wasn't

562
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 4: a hard negotiation at all.

563
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: I pretty much just asked for what I want.

564
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 4: I think the initial offer was maybe like eight or

565
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars short of the number that I actually

566
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 4: ended up landing on. So that came from negotiating, and

567
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: I think I was also able to negotiate a sign

568
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 4: on because you know, my thing, Because I have also

569
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 4: been pretty fortunate to kind of always leave jobs right

570
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 4: before bonuses are paid out, I always use that as

571
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 4: an opportunity to negotiate for more cash in my pocket.

572
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 4: So I think I ended up leaving AMEX right before

573
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 4: my bonus was paid out and kind of used that

574
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 4: number to say, Hey, MasterCard, I really want to sign

575
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 4: this offer, but I need this money right So, and

576
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 4: that's actually the same tactic that I used again when

577
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 4: I now join my current employer in tech, to say, Hey,

578
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 4: if I leave MasterCard, I'm leaving behind twenty nine thousand dollars.

579
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 4: What can you guys do to bring this in the offer?

580
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: And that's how I was able to negotiate in this

581
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 4: current job a twenty nine thousand dollars sign on bonus

582
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: that was not even on the table initially, right. So

583
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 4: for me negotiating, I've always been like, really stern on

584
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: just getting my base salary up, Like I haven't really

585
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 4: negotiated for other perks like PTO DA's and things like that.

586
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: I've kind of always just kind of been happy with

587
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 4: the packages that I've received on that front. But I've

588
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 4: always been trying to just get more cash into my

589
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 4: bottom line, whether that's through my base or through a

590
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 4: sign on bonus.

591
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, hell's yes. I mean I will say it till

592
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: I'm blue in the face, really sit down and crunch

593
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 3: the numbers on how much money you're leaving on the table.

594
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 3: I love that you mentioned your annual bonus, especially if

595
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: for leaving at the beginning of the year and those

596
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: bonuses don't pay out till March. Don't let that keep

597
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: you stuck.

598
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: Don't let that comet that car.

599
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: Or if it's equity, or even if it's your unvested

600
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, four toh one k matches. Add it all up, baby,

601
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: and then ask for as a sign on bonus. I

602
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: love that you did that, and it gets easier each time.

603
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: You know, the fact that you were the fact that

604
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 3: you've even been able to ask this early in your

605
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: career should be inspiring to anyone listening that. And I

606
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: too was asking very early in my career and I

607
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: was hearing no, or if I was hearing yes, it

608
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: maybe was a couple thousand or this or that. It

609
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: wasn't anything crazy, but it made me prepared and you

610
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 3: will be too for those days when then you're when

611
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: you're walking away like I have with like one hundred

612
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: and fifty thousand dollars, you know, signing bonus or equity

613
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: grant like that's it's all about practicing and getting the

614
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: in the habit of asking, because I will you agree

615
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: that it's still stressful and it's still like do you

616
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: get nervous when you negotiate?

617
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 4: So do I?

618
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. I think it's I think

619
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: it's totally normal too.

620
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 4: And I think, especially for me, right, I don't I

621
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: don't necessarily have so many women in my family to

622
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 4: kind of lean on and say how should I go

623
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 4: about this? Right, Like, my eldest sister has kind of

624
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: worked the same job for fifteen years, and the women

625
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 4: before her, right, my mother and grandmother, they spent their

626
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 4: entire lifetimes working at the same company.

627
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: Right.

628
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 4: So I think for me, I am, I am even

629
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 4: a testament of how we talk about this all the time,

630
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 4: how the new generation goes about things, how millennials go

631
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 4: about things, because I think even the women my family

632
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: are so inspired by when I'm like, yeah, I'm going

633
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 4: to leave this company and I'm going to negotiate for more,

634
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: They're just like, more power.

635
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: To you, girl.

636
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean true. And I think for our generation too,

637
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: it's almost like we have the we have the benefit

638
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: of having the Internet and having social media and having

639
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: all these I feel like virtual sisters, big sisters who

640
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: are kind of showing us another way, and those little

641
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: like nudges and those and even sharing your story, you

642
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: kind of can become that mentor virtual mentor for other

643
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: people to inspire them and show them a different way.

644
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: Whereas like my mom didn't have an you know when

645
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: without social media, you're just kind of closed off to

646
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: whatever's happening in your bubble, you know what I mean.

647
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: So absolutely, I mean I feel like my career coaching clients,

648
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: I've talked to so many women. I'm surprised, honestly how

649
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: many women are in their fifties and sixties who are

650
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: reaching out to me and they're like, I see what

651
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: y'all are doing.

652
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: Let's go.

653
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not too late. So I do follow you

654
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: on the Tiki TALKI and I know that you like

655
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: to travel. Now, I was looking at your TikTok and

656
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: I know one of my one of my favorite posts.

657
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: You always post these like gorgeous, you know, scenes of

658
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: you and I'm beautiful. I got to ask for you

659
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: your swimwear at because you're always looking fly. I guess

660
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: it's why you go buy fly danced. I get it,

661
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: But you tell his story on one of your viral tiktoks,

662
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: how about a year and a half into the pandemic

663
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: October twenty twenty one, you were suffering from depression and

664
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: feeling like you were in a toxic work environment, and

665
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: also you were job hunting. Can you take me to

666
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: that time and tell me what was going on in

667
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: your career and how you were able to move through

668
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: that to your next opportunity.

669
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm happy to talk about it.

670
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 4: I will say September to November twenty twenty one was

671
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 4: probably the hardest, some of the hardest like moments of

672
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: my life thus far, right, so just kind of paid

673
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: the picture for you. I had been working at MasterCard

674
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 4: for about a year and a half and and really

675
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 4: just started to feel like I was not appreciated, like

676
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: I was not really receiving the development that I wanted

677
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: to see in my career. That I was essentially being

678
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: siloed and stifled. Whether that was intentional or not, but

679
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 4: you know, I kind of came in expecting one thing

680
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 4: about how this job was going to look, and by

681
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 4: I would say, by by mid twenty twenty one, it

682
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 4: was kind of clear to me that if I did

683
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 4: not take the reins over my career. I was either

684
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 4: going to get pushed out or worse, and I think

685
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 4: that was kind of like a wake up call for me.

686
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 4: I'd never really experienced that in my career thus far.

687
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 4: So here I was feeling like, one, I definitely want

688
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: a new job, but two, I also want more freedom

689
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 4: in flexibility. I had spent three months living remotely Intulum

690
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one, and that gave me such a

691
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 4: taste of the lifestyle that I want. I am someone

692
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: who wants to be location independent, who sees myself living

693
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 4: overseas and retiring early overseas, so I think to have

694
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 4: that experience was such an eye opener for the type

695
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 4: of job that I need to be able to experience

696
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: that and not kind of sacrifice. And then at the

697
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: same time, I was job hunting, which anyone of us

698
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: knows it can feel like a second job. So here

699
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 4: I was dealing with a lot of toxicity in my

700
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: nine to five that's paying my bills, right. I don't

701
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: have the option to quit my job because I don't

702
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: want to necessarily rely on my savings. I don't necessarily

703
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 4: want to put myself under that pressure. But the same time,

704
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 4: job hunting. It took me a lot longer than I thought.

705
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 4: Right here, I am a qualified product manager. I have

706
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: all these great companies in my resume. What's not clicking,

707
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 4: Steven Right, I was going on all these interviews.

708
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: I was talking to a lot of great companies.

709
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: I did not receive a single offer when I started

710
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: my job hunt in May twenty twenty one too about November,

711
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: did not receive a single offer, And that was really frustrating.

712
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: It was very humbling. I knew that I knew that

713
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: I was suffering room depression because I couldn't get out

714
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 4: of bed. I'd started having just like apathy towards all

715
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 4: the things I enjoy doing. Right, I wasn't posting as

716
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 4: much on Flinance. I was honestly burnt out right from

717
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 4: trying to travel, create work a nine to five job hunt.

718
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 4: It was just was way too much on my plate.

719
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 4: So kind of what started to shift for me is

720
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 4: one I had to seek out a new therapist. I

721
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 4: just had to get a new help too. I had

722
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: to change up my career strategy. I realized, maybe I

723
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: can't do this by myself, maybe I need support. Right,

724
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 4: So I ended up investing in a career accelerator called

725
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 4: product Gym to really kind of help me create a

726
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: new strategy and build up some more confidence when it

727
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 4: came to interviewing and kind of telling my story, and

728
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: then I just had to kind of keep the ground running, right,

729
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 4: I took a break. I took like two and a

730
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: half weeks where I just didn't do anything. I didn't

731
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 4: not apply to any jobs. I just was kind of like,

732
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 4: let me just do my job and I'm going to

733
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 4: spend the rest of the time just resting and focusing

734
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 4: on me. And I came back with a vengeance and

735
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 4: then ended up applying to literally about one hundred and

736
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 4: fifty jobs in a like three week span.

737
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: One of those jobs ended up being the job that

738
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: I have now.

739
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 4: So I ended up receiving my offer in December twenty

740
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: twenty one. And you know, I would say that every

741
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 4: day it started to get easier. I think as I

742
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 4: started to really see some real traction and and my process,

743
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 4: as I started to kind of focus on my mental

744
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 4: health and really kind of prioritize my own self care,

745
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: you know, I started to feel like I could come

746
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 4: out of that depressive state. And then I really did win.

747
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: I ended up getting I mean the offer that I

748
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 4: accepted in the job that I have now was my

749
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 4: dream offer. I know that because I tweeted. I'd like

750
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: put out a tweet saying I am manifesting this. I

751
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 4: think I said I wanted like one hundred and sixty

752
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 4: thousand dollars fully remote PM job if I'm limited PTO

753
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 4: and equity, and I got that and then some and

754
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 4: the offer that I ended up landing. So WHOA I

755
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 4: would say last year was definitely a not only a

756
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 4: test of my patience and humility, but also a test

757
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 4: of my resilience to say, this too shall pass and

758
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 4: it's going to get better, and you can rest, but

759
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 4: you cannot quit, right, There's so much more that's out

760
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 4: there that you're deserving of. So let's rest, let's take breaks,

761
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 4: but let's keep going, right, Because imagine if I, if I,

762
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: you know, if I had stopped, if I had stopped

763
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 4: my progress, I would have kept myself from all this

764
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 4: abundance and.

765
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: Success that I have now in this current role.

766
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the majority of the clients who gravitate

767
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: toward me have ended up being women of color in

768
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: the six figure range mid career. And when I tell

769
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 3: you and I have to tell them a lot too.

770
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: Is it's the most challenging I think when you are

771
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 3: at a certain level in your career to find your

772
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 3: next opportunity, and it takes a lot longer it can

773
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: because those opportunities are not they're fewer and further between, right,

774
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 3: They're also a bit more competitive, and at that point,

775
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: your standards are higher, so you're not ready. You do

776
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 3: have like you, for example, you wanted something that was

777
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: fully remote, you want a certain salary range. So though

778
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: you know it does take time, and I think even

779
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 3: adjusting your own expectations for how long this journey may take.

780
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: And then and there's so many women who I've looked

781
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: at on the other end of a you know, a

782
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: zoom call during coaching sessions and I've said, you have

783
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: got to take a break, because even I can feel

784
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: your tired energy, your your lethargy, your depression like it's

785
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 3: coming through and it's hard to sparkle and shine and

786
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: attract a new opportunity in an interview when you are

787
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 3: carrying that energy with you. And I think it's a

788
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: tough pill to swallow for a lot of people, but

789
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: I love that you recognize it Okay, I've got to

790
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: like take a deep breath, you know, take time, pause,

791
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: pour back into yourself so that you could go back fighting.

792
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 4: You know.

793
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: Definitely you mentioned a program that you joined.

794
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: What was it, Product Gems?

795
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: What is that?

796
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: Tell me more about that.

797
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, so product gem is a career accelerator for experience

798
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 4: aspiring or experienced product managers who specifically want to learn

799
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 4: how to land higher paid product manager role. So why

800
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 4: I ended up landing there is because I knew I

801
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,479
Speaker 4: didn't I didn't necessarily need general career coaching. I knew

802
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 4: exactly what I wanted, I knew exactly where I wanted

803
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 4: to be, but I really felt like there weren't really

804
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 4: many resources out there that were kind of giving me

805
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 4: that specific coaching around how do you win at these

806
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 4: product manager interviews, which if anyone is out there looking

807
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 4: for product manager jobs, you know that it's its own ethos,

808
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 4: it's its own culture as it relates to you know,

809
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 4: being able to kind of navigate those interview processes. So

810
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: it was it was a pretty significant investment, but I

811
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 4: think it was a worthwhile one because it really gave

812
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 4: me the confidence, the clarity, and that push to say, okay,

813
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 4: there's definitely.

814
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 2: More out here.

815
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: How much was it?

816
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: It was six thousand dollars?

817
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 3: Oh okay, shit, I've heard worse.

818
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: I know about kind of great and may not know.

819
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: So for those who are listening and who have heard

820
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 3: and seen Sonia and others, especially on TikTok, you know,

821
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 3: really speaking about the possibilities in product management to find

822
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 3: for people who are listening, what is a product manager?

823
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: And then you mentioned the particulars of the interview process.

824
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: Any tips that you can share for how to navigate

825
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: that or what maybe there are what's different about applying

826
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: for those PM roles?

827
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, So you know, in a nutshell, a product manager

828
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 4: is really that person that's thinking about an end to

829
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: end customer experience and building the best experience for their.

830
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: Subset of users.

831
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: So, as a product manager, you could be owning any

832
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 4: type of products, right.

833
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: Product does not just have to be a physical item.

834
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 4: It could be a software, it could be an app,

835
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 4: it could be a digital platform.

836
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: Right.

837
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 4: So as a product manager, I have worked on financial products, right,

838
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 4: like credit cards. That was the very first product that

839
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 4: I owned at AMEX. Right, I owned the American Express

840
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 4: Gold card. So what that meant is every step of

841
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 4: that customer journey from someone applying for this card, through

842
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 4: using it, and even as they consider closing that account.

843
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 4: Right as a product manager, I was thinking about all

844
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 4: the steps in that process deliver the best customer experience.

845
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 4: I would say when it comes to interviewing for product

846
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 4: management jobs, especially if you don't have that true PM experience,

847
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 4: I think think about any time that you have been

848
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 4: able to either create something from scratch or significantly improve

849
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: a process, and what were those outcomes. That's what a

850
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 4: product manager is doing. So whether you've worked in a classroom,

851
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 4: you've worked in healthcare, you worked in social services, you

852
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 4: worked in other types of business, I think we all

853
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 4: can think about those moments where we've said, hey, there's

854
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 4: something really wrong with this process, here's how I would

855
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 4: improve it, here's how I'm going to improve it, and

856
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: here were the outcomes. I think the more that you

857
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 4: have those examples to be able to speak to even

858
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 4: if you don't have this quote unquote PM true experience,

859
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 4: I think that's what many of the hiring managers that

860
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 4: are hiring for product managers are looking for. Can you

861
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 4: really kind of dig your hands into something that might

862
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 4: be complex, or it might be kind of broken, offer

863
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 4: new solutions and then be able to create a new

864
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 4: path forward.

865
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 3: Do they commonly give you those like case studies, like,

866
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: here's a situation, you know what would you I've seen them?

867
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I would say as a product manager, you

868
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 4: can be very on the technical side, and I think

869
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 4: especially as you think about some especially as you kind

870
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: of look at more tech companies, you might have more

871
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 4: case studies or more product exercises, but there are plenty

872
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: of business focused teams that need product managers where your

873
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 4: interview process might just be behavioral. It might just be

874
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 4: tell me about a time when it might just be hey,

875
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 4: our clients are XYZ.

876
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: How would you approach the scenario? Right?

877
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 4: Where you don't necessarily have to be able to create

878
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 4: or build something from scratch, you don't have to be

879
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: able to explain code, but can you explain how you

880
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 4: would approach a situation and how you would bring your

881
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 4: skills to the situation. There are plenty of business product

882
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 4: managers that don't code, that don't have technical backgrounds. Right,

883
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 4: You've heard a lot about my experience. I don't have

884
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 4: any certificates. I'm not PMP certified. I don't have any

885
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 4: of those You know more technical certifications or qualifications, but

886
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 4: I've built things, right, I can talk about the things

887
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 4: that I've built. I can talk about how I think

888
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 4: about approaching new or difficult situations. And I think that's

889
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 4: what's kind of kept me going on this process and

890
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: what's made me stand out even in interview processes.

891
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and do you have a particular opinion about the

892
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 3: whole PMP certification. I can't tell you how many people

893
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 3: I've seen considering it while they're kind of throwing everything

894
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: at the wall in terms of pivoting into a different career.

895
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, My short opinion is that I think they can

896
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 4: be very fruitful if they are aligned with the jobs

897
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 4: that you actually want.

898
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 2: Right.

899
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 4: So, if you are looking for job descriptions that are

900
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: not mentioning PMP, they're not mentioning any certifications you don't

901
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 4: necessarily want to be a technical product owner, for example,

902
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 4: then it may not be worth your time, right. It

903
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 4: might be better to invest that time in learning how

904
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 4: to interview with confidence, learning how to brand yourself, spending

905
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: time connecting with other product managers.

906
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: Right, Because as you've.

907
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 4: Just heard, my first you know, four years I've spent

908
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 4: as a product manager have come through me just having

909
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 4: relationships with people who are inside companies looking to hire.

910
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: Right.

911
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 4: So if I had spent so much more time thinking about,

912
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 4: oh I don't have these certificates, I might have missed

913
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 4: out on the opportunity to build relationships, build connections with

914
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 4: people who could have just gotten me right into an

915
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 4: interview process.

916
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you mentioned branding, and I love talking about

917
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 3: professional branding for you and I and you went through

918
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: the product gem's course or what was it like a

919
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 3: program accelerator? You said, right, what were some of the

920
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: turning points for you think in your interview strategy, because

921
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: it sounds to me like that was. Will you tell me,

922
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 3: you know what was it that finally broke for you

923
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 3: where you were finally kind of getting those callbacks to

924
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: interviews and eventually getting your you know, your job offer.

925
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was. I think it was. There

926
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: were a couple of things.

927
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 4: I think one of mindset shifts to say, there is

928
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 4: such a high demand, especially right now for product managers.

929
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 4: Even if I don't get this one job, rejection is redirection, Right,

930
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 4: I'm gonna land somewhere else, right that there's just so

931
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: much out here. I think two was through product. I'm

932
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 4: really learning to apply at scale, right. So I think

933
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 4: when I was doing it myself, I was trying to

934
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: update my resume every time I was applying a job,

935
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 4: was trying to be super picky about what I applied to.

936
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 4: And I really learned through their curriculum how to apply

937
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 4: at scale so that I could put out twenty five

938
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 4: applications a day, right, which meant I was getting a

939
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 4: lot more interviews, right instead of kind of focusing in

940
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 4: on these like five or so I spending all this

941
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: time focusing on a handful, I'm going to focus on

942
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 4: twenty five fifty seventy five a week, right, which means

943
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: I have more interviews, more opportunities to land and offer.

944
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 4: And I think the last thing was really even as

945
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 4: someone like me who was an experience PM, I really

946
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 4: had to, I think, redefine and refocus my skills so

947
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 4: that I was also rising to the top of when

948
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 4: recruiters were looking for product managers, especially online like LinkedIn right.

949
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 4: So there were things that I didn't even know that

950
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 4: I could do, for example with my branding online, like

951
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: to call out a lot of the skills that I had,

952
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 4: for example on LinkedIn right, and to really like crystallize

953
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 4: some of the things that I had done and show results,

954
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 4: because then, I mean, at the peak of when I

955
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 4: was interviewing, I was receiving in mails from like three

956
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 4: to five recruiters a day, right, Like, that's how much

957
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 4: my profile was standing out because I made more of

958
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 4: the strategic choices around how I talk about myself, how

959
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 4: I show up, right, how do I just kind of

960
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: really show any recruiter that's timing for product managers that yes,

961
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 4: I need to be in your interview cycle. So those

962
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 4: were a lot of things that I learned through Product

963
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 4: Jim that I definitely feel like I wasn't doing well

964
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 4: on my own, and I think that's what gave me

965
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 4: that confidence. That's what kind of gave me that momentum

966
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 4: again that ultimately helped me land the offer that I landed.

967
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 4: And you know it, I will say also as part

968
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 4: of partist gim curriculum is that, hey, getting one offer

969
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 4: isn't enough, Like it's great to have multiple offers to

970
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 4: be able leverage against. I mean, I think that's a

971
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 4: great advice for anyone, right, But I was pretty happy

972
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 4: with the offer that I received, so I decided not

973
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 4: to keep interviewing.

974
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: But I remember when I kind of announced.

975
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 4: Hey, I got this this great offer, one of the

976
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: co founders was like, Okay, are you going to keep interviewing,

977
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 4: Like because you don't have to stop interviewing, you know,

978
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 4: like why don't you keep going right? But I think

979
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 4: for me, I was honestly just kind of ready to

980
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 4: focus on something else.

981
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: I had been at it for a while. Yeah.

982
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And also you had the driver of kind of

983
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: being in a situation that you wanted to get out of.

984
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 3: So I mean, there's all the advice in the world,

985
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 3: but ultimately it's like sitting down with yourself and do

986
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: I feel ready and is it right for me? And

987
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 3: I feel like you can never go wrong, you know,

988
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 3: when you're doing it for what's right for you. Well, Sonia,

989
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 3: it has been such a pleasure having you on Brown Ambition.

990
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: Thanks for letting me pepper you with questions.

991
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: This is such a great interview.

992
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your time, and I'm so

993
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 4: glad that we got to spread this message for more

994
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 4: women to hear that you know, there is no shame

995
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 4: and taking control of your career. There's no shame in

996
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: asking for more and getting.

997
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: What you deserve Amen's sister friend. All Right, nine to

998
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: five hotties, thank you so much for listening to this

999
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 3: interview with Sonia Go to Fly danced on ig check

1000
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 3: her out. Where else can people find you?

1001
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: I'm everywhere.

1002
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: I'm on ig, TikTok, Twitter, and you can also find

1003
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 4: my website flinance dot com. And yeah, I would love

1004
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 4: to know if you heard me on the Brown Ambitious podcast,

1005
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 4: DM me and let me know.

1006
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 3: Maybe find you on a beach somewhere.

1007
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: Chah, wasn't that an awesome throwback? It's such a fun

1008
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: trip jam memory lane. Okay, make sure to check out

1009
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: Brown and Bish every Monday, Wednesday or Friday because we

1010
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: are here.