WEBVTT - CZM Book Club: "The Sapling Cage" by Margaret Killjoy

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Book Club, book Club, book Club, book Club book Club.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the Cool Zone Media book Club, the only podcast

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<v Speaker 2>where you don't have to do the reading. And usually

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<v Speaker 2>I say, because I do the reading. But this week

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be different. This week, instead of reading

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<v Speaker 2>to a guest, I found a guest to read to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I found Jackie milash Hi.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Jackie is the narrator of my upcoming book, The

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<v Speaker 2>Sapling Cage. You've probably heard me talking about for the

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<v Speaker 2>past like six months at least or longer. But I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't it be fun to read you all a chapter

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<v Speaker 2>of it? And then I thought, wouldn't it be even

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<v Speaker 2>more fun if you all could listen to the person

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<v Speaker 2>who's going to be doing the reading of it in

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<v Speaker 2>your ears? Because Jackie's narrator of the book, So I

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<v Speaker 2>thought she should come on and read you all some

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<v Speaker 2>of the book.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, hell yeah, I'm so glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>I usually do like a bio of the author, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to do a bio of the author,

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<v Speaker 2>but tell us about you really quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh yeah, So I'm I'm like, who am I. It's

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<v Speaker 1>one of those things where like as soon as anybody

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<v Speaker 1>asks me a question and I have all the knowledge

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<v Speaker 1>I have just disappears. I'm a voice actor who specializes

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<v Speaker 1>in audiobook narration. I'm based out of the ann Arbor,

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<v Speaker 1>Michigan area, and I also work out a library part

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<v Speaker 1>time as well, and so it's a cool gig. This

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<v Speaker 1>story meant a lot to me because I am transfeminine myself.

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<v Speaker 1>My pronouns are she, they, and so a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>what's like in the text really really resonated with me.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I was thrilled to be able to narrate

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<v Speaker 1>this title, and I'm thrilled to be here to read

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<v Speaker 1>a little piece of it for you guys today.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I had nothing to do with the decision making of narrators,

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<v Speaker 2>but I did get to hear the like audition piece

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, oh, no, this is going to work,

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<v Speaker 2>this is gonna be right, thank you. So The Sapling

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<v Speaker 2>Cage is a book that I wrote, and it is

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<v Speaker 2>a crossover, which means it's a YA book that knows

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be read by adults, which did me

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of good. Well, we'll talk about the book

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<v Speaker 2>more at the end after the reading, but instead it's

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<v Speaker 2>called The Sapling Cage. It comes out September twenty fourth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four, in both audiobook and print book form,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can pre order either the print or the audio,

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<v Speaker 2>or both if you're feeling spicy. I don't know why

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<v Speaker 2>that's spicy, but you could do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Why not?

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<v Speaker 2>All right, let's hear this amazing story. I've never had

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<v Speaker 2>anyone read me one of my own things before. I

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<v Speaker 2>suppose that is an unusual sort of sensation and feeling. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>especially because it's like a fantasy world full of weird names.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, sure it's going to be great. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm excited.

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<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah, all right, all right. One, the alder tree

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<v Speaker 1>was ancient, and its leaves and branches left sunlight dappled

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<v Speaker 1>on the forest floor. It was also dead, and it

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't have been. Everywhere around us the forest was waking

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<v Speaker 1>from winter. Everything was bluebells and white trilliums and new

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<v Speaker 1>buds on branches and bright green leaves. Everything was spring

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<v Speaker 1>except the alder. Its bark was sharp with cold, like

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<v Speaker 1>ice or like stone. Its leaves were gray. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think trees are supposed to be like that, Blaine said.

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<v Speaker 1>We'd finished our morning work on the communal fields not

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<v Speaker 1>a hundred yards away through the trees. Horses ran in

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<v Speaker 1>the pasture, excited to be outside after so many months

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<v Speaker 1>of snow. I could smell rain in the air. It

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<v Speaker 1>should have been a perfect day. But the alder was dead,

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<v Speaker 1>and it shouldn't have been. Witchcraft. Lane said. That was

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<v Speaker 1>her explanation for everything strange. It couldn't be the witches.

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<v Speaker 1>I said, that was my defense of everything blamed on witchcraft.

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<v Speaker 1>She paced around the tree. It took her several paces

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<v Speaker 1>for every lap. She was half a year younger than me,

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<v Speaker 1>she'd just turned sixteen, but she was the one always

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<v Speaker 1>trying to burn off extra energy. I peered at the

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<v Speaker 1>frost gathered on the alder's bark. I see another one,

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<v Speaker 1>Laine said. She took off, running further into the forest,

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<v Speaker 1>and I caught up with her a ways away. A

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<v Speaker 1>young pine was dead and cold, its needles gone gray.

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<v Speaker 1>One shattered at the touch of my finger. Who else

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<v Speaker 1>but witches, Lane asked, Trees don't turn cold. Only a

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<v Speaker 1>witch could save it. I said, you'll be able to

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<v Speaker 1>save it. Oh hooray, Lane said, sarcastically. It's not that bad.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't make that deal. I don't think my dead

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<v Speaker 1>mom's promise she'd mean anything. Layne and I started back

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<v Speaker 1>toward the village. Witches get to wear those black skirts, though,

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<v Speaker 1>I said, and curse people and heal people. I'd rather

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<v Speaker 1>be a knight, you know. I'd rather be a knight.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you arguing with me about this? That was

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<v Speaker 1>a fair question. I thought it over as we walked.

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<v Speaker 1>If I was a girl, I'd pretend to be you

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<v Speaker 1>and go in your place. I'd always wanted to be

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<v Speaker 1>a witch. It's a shame you aren't a girl, Laine said.

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<v Speaker 1>I agreed, not just because of the witch thing. One

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<v Speaker 1>of my earliest memories was being glad that my name

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<v Speaker 1>Laurel was as common for girls as it was for boys.

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<v Speaker 1>Five years back, my mother had given up trying to

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<v Speaker 1>keep me out of her face, powder and paint. Laine

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<v Speaker 1>had always been gamed to trade clothes with me. Those

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<v Speaker 1>were the only two people in town who I talked

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<v Speaker 1>to about how I should have been a girl. I

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<v Speaker 1>had enough social problems already. When I was little, maybe seven,

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<v Speaker 1>I told my friend River to call me a girl

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<v Speaker 1>instead of a boy, and he just punched me right

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<v Speaker 1>then and there, without thinking about it. My mom thought

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<v Speaker 1>my nose was broke and a traveling witch had to

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<v Speaker 1>set it for me. River apologized, and maybe he even

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<v Speaker 1>meant it that he was sorry, but he'd made it

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<v Speaker 1>seem like the whole thing was my fault, like I'd

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<v Speaker 1>scared him or something. So yeah, only my mom and

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<v Speaker 1>Lane knew about the dresses and the paint. If I

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<v Speaker 1>were a witch, though, I could turn the next person

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<v Speaker 1>like River into a goat, or figure out things like

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<v Speaker 1>why those trees were cold. I'll do it anyway, I said,

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<v Speaker 1>as we walked through the fields of flax and barley.

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<v Speaker 1>What I started talking faster so I wouldn't lose my nerve.

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<v Speaker 1>When the coven comes through to take you, I'll tell

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<v Speaker 1>them i'm you, and I'll go off and learn to

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<v Speaker 1>be a witch. You're a boy, Laine said. Girls are

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<v Speaker 1>allowed to be nights, now, why can't boys be witches?

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<v Speaker 1>And besides, it's not my fault I'm a boy. It's

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<v Speaker 1>still true. I can pretend. Lane walked up next to

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<v Speaker 1>me and threw her arms around my shoulders. What if

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<v Speaker 1>you get caught. I won't get caught, I said. Strangers

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<v Speaker 1>always think I'm a girl. Anyway, My mother and I

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<v Speaker 1>ran the stables. There were more popular roads than Southede,

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<v Speaker 1>and there were more prosperous towns than Ledstone on Southeide,

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<v Speaker 1>but we still saw our share of wayfarers. Most were

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<v Speaker 1>on their way to Port Sac to our east, or

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<v Speaker 1>Deadmond Castle to our west, and most of them had horses,

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<v Speaker 1>and most of them stabled with us overnight. We served

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<v Speaker 1>knights and mercenaries and merchants and brigands. And I was

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<v Speaker 1>just reaching an age where grown men took not a

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<v Speaker 1>small amount of interest in trying to figure out my gender.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't have even a hint of a beard, my

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<v Speaker 1>shoulders were narrow, and I had my mother's sharp features.

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<v Speaker 1>These are witches, though Lane reminded me, they can see

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<v Speaker 1>more than other people can. Were you trying to talk

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<v Speaker 1>me out of it? I asked no. She squeezed me

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<v Speaker 1>tighter against her side as we walked. I'm just worried.

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<v Speaker 1>What will you tell your dads or your mother. I

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<v Speaker 1>won't tell Grell or Jorge anything. My dad's had a

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<v Speaker 1>home all the way in Port Sac. I lived with

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<v Speaker 1>them every autumn for a month or so. When the

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<v Speaker 1>storms kept them on land most of the year. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't hear from them, and their only contribution to my

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<v Speaker 1>upbringing was the silver they sent my mother when they could. Mom,

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<v Speaker 1>though she'll understand, I love it like I love the Baron,

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<v Speaker 1>my mother said when I told her, that was about

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<v Speaker 1>as close as she came to cursing. She sure didn't

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<v Speaker 1>love Baron, need no one did. She sat in her

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<v Speaker 1>rocking chair, a clay mug of wine in her hand.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd waited until after supper to tell her, because she

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<v Speaker 1>never took news well on an empty stomach. I didn't either,

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<v Speaker 1>come to think of it, she took a long draw

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<v Speaker 1>of the mug. You're old enough to make your own mistakes.

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<v Speaker 1>After that, she didn't say anything at all, which was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of worse than her yelling at me. Really, it

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<v Speaker 1>left me with nothing to do but stand around there

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<v Speaker 1>was only one good chair on the porch of the

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<v Speaker 1>stable house and come to my own conclusions about why

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<v Speaker 1>it was a bad idea. I didn't want to do that,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd made up my so I tried not to linger

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<v Speaker 1>on what the witches might do to me if they

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<v Speaker 1>found out, or what nights sometimes did to witches. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>get to learn magic, I said, real magic. Cauldrons and curses,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe I'll even learn how to fly. What is

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<v Speaker 1>it that you think witches do? They travel around doing

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<v Speaker 1>good things? I said, they help some people and hurt

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<v Speaker 1>some people, depending on what they deserve. That's what you

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<v Speaker 1>want to do, help some people, hurt other people. Since

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<v Speaker 1>when have you liked hurting people? I don't know, mom,

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<v Speaker 1>since never. I guess it was my turn to grow quiet.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd probably learned that trick from her. The cicadas were

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<v Speaker 1>out and early too, filling the air with their rising

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<v Speaker 1>and falling song. The town drunk said it was going

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<v Speaker 1>to be an irrational year, one of those years where

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<v Speaker 1>the seasons don't do it, there's a host to and

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<v Speaker 1>crops fail. No one paid him over much heed, But

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<v Speaker 1>the cicadas really shouldn't have been out just yet. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no way to disguise yourself, my mom said, breaking the silence,

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<v Speaker 1>not forever. You don't look at now, but you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to grow into a man by then. I bet I'll

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<v Speaker 1>have magic enough to hide it. I said, I won't

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<v Speaker 1>hear the end of it, never, not from Grell. When

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<v Speaker 1>she invoked my birth father's name, I knew that was

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<v Speaker 1>basically the end of it. She'd given up. I was

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<v Speaker 1>my mother's child through and through, and she knew I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't care what Grell thought. I hadn't inherited anything from Grell,

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<v Speaker 1>but skin half a shade darker than my mother's olive.

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<v Speaker 1>This is it, then, she said. She poured the dregs

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<v Speaker 1>of her wine off into the grass, honored the dead,

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<v Speaker 1>as she did with every coup. The cavin is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be by soon enough, and you're going to lie

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<v Speaker 1>to them, and you'll learn to be a witch. Not

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<v Speaker 1>a sailor, not a knight, not another's forbid, a stable master,

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<v Speaker 1>but a witch, my son, a witch. I nodded, grinning.

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<v Speaker 1>She hadn't stopped me. I knew deep in my heart

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<v Speaker 1>that if it was truly a terrible idea, my mother

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<v Speaker 1>would have tried harder to stop me. What's Laine going

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<v Speaker 1>to do while you're off being her? She want to

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<v Speaker 1>learn how to run a stable. She's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a knight. Of course, she is my mom's side. I

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<v Speaker 1>knew she wasn't happy about me leaving. I knew she

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<v Speaker 1>wanted someone to care about the stables, about Ledstone the

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<v Speaker 1>way she did. But that wasn't me. It wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>done anyone any good for me to pretend otherwise. But

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to pretend to care about things, you

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<v Speaker 1>could pretend to care about the advertisers that support the

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<v Speaker 1>pot guests that you run, much like I'm doing right now.

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<v Speaker 3>Here's some ads yang capitalism and rebec.

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<v Speaker 1>Witches don't really keep proper schedules, but most years they

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<v Speaker 1>made their way down southeat around Mother's May, the spring holiday.

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<v Speaker 1>I figured I had about a week to repare myself.

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<v Speaker 1>The witches didn't know Lane by name. They were just

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<v Speaker 1>coming for the daughter of Leona of the Lead, now

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<v Speaker 1>that she'd seen sixteen years. I started sleeping over at

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<v Speaker 1>the Lead manor in case they came at night. The

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<v Speaker 1>house was a decrepit shell, really, the rock walls overgrown

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.079
<v Speaker 1>with vines and half the lumber taken to rot. Laane

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.839
<v Speaker 1>did what she could to maintain it, but she'd live

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 1>there alone for three years. She spent most of her

0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 1>days working the communal fields, and hadn't the skills or

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.560
<v Speaker 1>resources for serious repairs. The manner was a shadow of

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.560
<v Speaker 1>its former glory. That manner dead manner. Lane called it

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.320
<v Speaker 1>rhyming the name. A few hundred years ago Lane's ancestors

0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.240
<v Speaker 1>had founded the town to mine. Lad then sworn fealty

0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.200
<v Speaker 1>to some baroness or baron. Serfs moved in, and those

0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.760
<v Speaker 1>who weren't mining took to farming on the communal fields.

0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 1>One hundred years back, collectivisation had swept through the Lowlands,

0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 1>and the baron had allowed it Rather than lose power completely.

0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Lane's family stayed richer than most of the rest of us,

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:44.040
<v Speaker 1>but only through trade and inheritance. They no longer ruled,

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.080
<v Speaker 1>and they no longer took tax. Only the baron did

0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.320
<v Speaker 1>either of those things. By Lane's mother's time, the family

0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 1>barely had enough to maintain the ancient manner. The first

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.800
<v Speaker 1>night I spent there waiting for the witches, Lane led

0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.120
<v Speaker 1>me up treacherous stairs to her parents' old living quarters.

0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 1>We had to pick our way carefully across the sagging

0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.680
<v Speaker 1>floor in the lamplight. I'm going to bring this place

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.080
<v Speaker 1>back to glory, Lane said, tugging her shirtsleeve free from

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 1>a protruating nail. I'll be the first night protector Letston's

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.760
<v Speaker 1>hat in fifty years. You really think you'll come back,

0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:25.440
<v Speaker 1>I asked, you won't. I mean I'll visit my mom,

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I said, sometimes we could use a village witch, Lane said,

0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.440
<v Speaker 1>Just think of this place with a night protector and

0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 1>a village witch. Too much world to see, I said,

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 1>since I'd made up my mind to join the witches,

0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 1>I'd spent half my time waking and asleep imagining all

0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 1>the things I was off to see and do. We

0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.800
<v Speaker 1>stopped before a heavy cherrywood wardrobe set in the corner

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.520
<v Speaker 1>of the master bedroom. Its hinges were faded brass, but

0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:01.720
<v Speaker 1>gold filigrees still gleamed eternally bright along the doorpan. Before

0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 1>Lane's mother died, she had always kept us out of

0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:09.840
<v Speaker 1>this room. After Lane's mother died, Lane herself had solemnly

0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.960
<v Speaker 1>told me that this wardrobe was off limits. Lane selected

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.120
<v Speaker 1>an iron key hung on a chain from her belt

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.440
<v Speaker 1>and held it aloft so we might appreciate the seriousness

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:27.880
<v Speaker 1>of the moment. You ready, she asked. I nodded. I

0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:33.360
<v Speaker 1>could scarcely wait. She opened the wardrobe. Black skirts and

0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 1>dresses hung from hooks. Stockings woven in intricate patterns lay

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 1>in a pile. Jewelry finely crafted from plain materials, glittered

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 1>beneath the glass lid of an ebony box. I'd studied

0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.760
<v Speaker 1>at the loom enough to know the long days it

0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 1>took to weave a few yards of flax or wool.

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:57.120
<v Speaker 1>This was the accumulated wealth of a life. My mother

0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.240
<v Speaker 1>left pretty clear instructions for when I left to join

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.880
<v Speaker 1>the Witches. Lane said I was to bring a short dress,

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 1>a long dress, a warm cloak, a winter skirt, and

0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.879
<v Speaker 1>three pairs of stockings. So pick out whatever you'd like

0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:18.040
<v Speaker 1>my own dress. I would have my own dress, two

0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.160
<v Speaker 1>of them. Even. I spent most of an hour making

0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.119
<v Speaker 1>my decision, modeling each garment in front of the mirror

0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.560
<v Speaker 1>on the inside door of the wardrobe. Not even Leona

0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.919
<v Speaker 1>of the lad had ever owned a smooth glass mirror,

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.679
<v Speaker 1>so my image was distorted. That suited me fine. It

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 1>let me imagine how I ought to look. I let

0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:42.240
<v Speaker 1>my hair down out of its top knot long and

0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 1>straight and black. It framed my face well. I'd have

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 1>worn it down all the time if I could. Though

0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.919
<v Speaker 1>I was much taller than Lane, I was nearly the

0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.520
<v Speaker 1>same size as Leona had been. Most of the dresses

0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.159
<v Speaker 1>sat funny across my chest since I had nothing to

0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.080
<v Speaker 1>fill them out, and even fewer of them were loose

0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.080
<v Speaker 1>enough across the hips to hide the bulge between my legs.

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.119
<v Speaker 1>But in the end I found two that fit me

0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 1>just right. Both were high waisted, which made my legs

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>look longer and my torso shorter. One linen, one wool.

0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:23.400
<v Speaker 1>When I wore those dresses, I couldn't stop smiling. You're beautiful,

0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 1>Lene said, she was smiling too. She thought for a moment,

0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.400
<v Speaker 1>then dug through the wardrobe. She pulled out a necklace,

0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 1>A black stone pendant hung from a delicate steel chain.

0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.480
<v Speaker 1>She held it out to me. No one in town

0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:46.080
<v Speaker 1>had anything so nice. Your mother didn't say anything about

0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.880
<v Speaker 1>taking any jewelry, I said, she's dead. Take it as

0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.560
<v Speaker 1>I thank you. I took it and put it on.

0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.919
<v Speaker 1>It hung just above the low neckline of the long dress,

0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:05.160
<v Speaker 1>the stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how

0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 1>I was born, I was going to get to be

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.640
<v Speaker 1>a witch, despite how I was born, I was going

0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 1>to get to live as a woman. Lane squeezed me.

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 1>She was crying into my neck. Thank you, she whispered.

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 1>Of course I started crying too. I slept in my

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.280
<v Speaker 1>long dress that night. I wanted to get used to

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.960
<v Speaker 1>wearing it, and also I just didn't want to take

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.119
<v Speaker 1>it off. I slept in one of the empty rooms

0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:44.639
<v Speaker 1>in the manner. A windstorm howled outside, and branches cracked

0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:49.400
<v Speaker 1>in the distance. I dreamt about a witch with translucent skin.

0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 1>I saw her skull and her veins and her teeth

0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 1>like I was looking through foggy glass. She was a

0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.480
<v Speaker 1>real woman, a real witch who'd wandered through town when

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.760
<v Speaker 1>I was an infant. I dreamt about her ever since.

0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.560
<v Speaker 1>That night though I was a witch, and the glass

0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.919
<v Speaker 1>faced Witch was with me, next to me, tied to

0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.399
<v Speaker 1>me with thick hemp rope. We were in a boat.

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Hands lifted us out of the boat and threw us overboard,

0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:24.240
<v Speaker 1>and we sank, and I was drowning, tied the glass

0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:24.879
<v Speaker 1>faced witch.

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>And if you want to survive drowning in a sea

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.320
<v Speaker 2>of choices, nothing can save you except having those choices

0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>made for you already, by choosing what to buy based

0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:45.280
<v Speaker 2>on what advertises on your favorite show, like these advertisers.

0:20:46.000 --> 0:21:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Here they are. And Rebecca Mother's may came and went

0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.800
<v Speaker 1>with no sign of the coven, no word from anyone

0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 1>passing through either, though of course I had to be

0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:15.760
<v Speaker 1>careful with my inquiries. Witches weren't beloved everywhere across Seacon.

0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 1>None of the baronies outlawed witchcraft outright, but not everyone

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.880
<v Speaker 1>knew and appreciated the social utility of witchcraft, and very

0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.159
<v Speaker 1>few of the knightly brotherhoods would raise a hand or

0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.200
<v Speaker 1>a sword to protect witches. Some knights saw witches as

0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 1>a threat to their power and haunted them. If I

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.160
<v Speaker 1>told the wrong knights we were expecting witches, I might

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.480
<v Speaker 1>even get them killed. Most of the news was talk

0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 1>of strife. Far to the north, Duchess Helta had pressed

0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.400
<v Speaker 1>some ancient and dubious claim and annexed some baron's holdings.

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:57.479
<v Speaker 1>The news felt impossibly distant. I tried to make myself

0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.440
<v Speaker 1>useful at the stables, but as the days were or on,

0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:05.200
<v Speaker 1>I got more and more anxious and distracted. One day

0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.160
<v Speaker 1>I forgot to fasten a buckle, and a passing merchant

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:12.080
<v Speaker 1>fell from her horse and injured her back. After that,

0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.679
<v Speaker 1>my mother told me it was about time she got

0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 1>used to running the place alone anyway, which left me

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:22.159
<v Speaker 1>with too much time to worry. What would witches do

0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.879
<v Speaker 1>to an impostor would they kick me out, turn me

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.280
<v Speaker 1>into a sow, or kill me. They'd probably just kicked

0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:35.480
<v Speaker 1>me out. Maybe my mother took to eating dinner with

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.040
<v Speaker 1>us at Lane's house, particularly after she fired me, and

0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.760
<v Speaker 1>I spent more of my time baking and cooking. Five

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.919
<v Speaker 1>days after Mother's May, I was reaching my breaking point.

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:50.639
<v Speaker 1>We ate on the back porch where the overgrown garden

0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.080
<v Speaker 1>kept away prying eyes, and I wore my short dress.

0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 1>The sun was just below the horizon. We were mopping

0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.199
<v Speaker 1>up the last of a turnip and barley soup with

0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 1>fresh baked bread, and I just couldn't keep my feelings

0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:09.440
<v Speaker 1>cooped up anymore. I give up, I said, this waiting.

0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 1>It's going to kill me, or the witches will kill me,

0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.399
<v Speaker 1>or people will kill me for being a witch. Better,

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 1>I just give up. I'll go be a sailor or

0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:24.600
<v Speaker 1>something instead. Sailors see the world too. Laine looked up,

0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:27.440
<v Speaker 1>her brown eyes just starting to go wide with fear.

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.680
<v Speaker 1>If I backed out, the coven would take her instead.

0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.880
<v Speaker 1>You can do anything you want with your life, Laurel,

0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 1>my mother said. I always knew a lecture was coming

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.600
<v Speaker 1>when she used my name. And I don't wish you

0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.320
<v Speaker 1>were off to be a witch. But you made a

0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:51.520
<v Speaker 1>promise to Lane. I didn't say I promise, I said,

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:54.440
<v Speaker 1>as soon as the words came out of my mouth,

0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 1>I regretted them, saying, you promise isn't the only way

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 1>to promise. Yes, it's okay, Laine said, it was nice

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.320
<v Speaker 1>of you to offer, but if you back out, it's okay.

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.000
<v Speaker 1>I didn't like my mom being mean to me, and

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.720
<v Speaker 1>I didn't like Lane being nice to me. I didn't

0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.879
<v Speaker 1>like much of anything at all. The Bloodston bell told

0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 1>twice the Ledstone bell rang once for friendly knights and

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:28.160
<v Speaker 1>merchants come to town, twice for friendly brigands and witches

0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 1>and other people the baron didn't approve of three times

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 1>for royalty, and cacophonously for any of the above who

0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:39.440
<v Speaker 1>looked like they might stir up trouble. Never mind, I said,

0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:44.120
<v Speaker 1>standing up, I'll do it upstairs with you. My mother

0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.920
<v Speaker 1>said to Lane, out of sight, you look too much

0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 1>like your mother. Laane darted over and hugged me. She

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:54.720
<v Speaker 1>pulled back to look at me like she was trying

0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to say something. Then she gave up, shook her head,

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.439
<v Speaker 1>and ran into the house. Are you going through with this,

0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:07.240
<v Speaker 1>my mother asked. I stood up straight, smoothed out my dress.

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Of course, I said, I made a promise. My arms

0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:17.280
<v Speaker 1>shook uncontrollably at my side as I walked to the

0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.880
<v Speaker 1>center of town, and it was all I could do

0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:24.919
<v Speaker 1>to concentrate on my breathing. We have come for the

0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:26.000
<v Speaker 1>daughter of Leona.

0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:26.560
<v Speaker 3>Of the lead.

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Five witches stood shoulder to shoulder in the center of

0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:34.800
<v Speaker 1>the town square. My whole childhood, I'd wanted to know

0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 1>about witches. It was always hard to separate rumor from truth,

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.920
<v Speaker 1>but I knew a few things. I knew that every

0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:44.440
<v Speaker 1>full fledged witch was the other's equal. For one thing,

0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:48.480
<v Speaker 1>each of these five were black from head to toe,

0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:51.679
<v Speaker 1>despite the warm evening and the heat radiating from the

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.719
<v Speaker 1>cobbles beneath their boots. One was roughly my mother's age,

0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 1>with the ivory, pale skin and narrow nose of someone

0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:01.920
<v Speaker 1>from the far north. Two of them were as old

0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:05.840
<v Speaker 1>as anyone I'd ever seen. Two of them could scarcely

0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:09.159
<v Speaker 1>have been twenty. One of the youngest had a fresh

0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:11.680
<v Speaker 1>wound cut across her face and stood with the help

0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:15.080
<v Speaker 1>of a crotch. Two of the others had bandaged arms.

0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:18.679
<v Speaker 1>I must have had trouble on the way. Maybe that

0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.800
<v Speaker 1>was why they were so late. Most of them were

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 1>armed with spears or axes or swords. The uninjured young

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:29.240
<v Speaker 1>one carried what looked like a bird cage covered with

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:34.920
<v Speaker 1>a cloth embroidered in the indecipherable rooms of witchcraft. Behind them,

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 1>a girl my age stood shyly, like she didn't know

0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:42.920
<v Speaker 1>quite what to do. Another recruit, most likely, she wore

0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the most beautiful black cloak made of glistening sea wool.

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.959
<v Speaker 1>Its hood had a long pointed tail. That was a

0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:57.320
<v Speaker 1>good cloak for a witch. I'm Laurel, I said, I

0:26:57.400 --> 0:26:59.640
<v Speaker 1>lie the best when I sort of just avoid telling

0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.840
<v Speaker 1>the truth instead of lying outright, so I didn't mention

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:08.480
<v Speaker 1>that I only had one name. I stepped forward, one witch.

0:27:08.800 --> 0:27:11.639
<v Speaker 1>One of the crones broke from the line and circled me,

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 1>looking me over. The rest of the witches carried baskets

0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 1>of wicker on their backs, but this woman bore a

0:27:19.560 --> 0:27:25.359
<v Speaker 1>casket child sized instead. Laurel of the lead, she said,

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.400
<v Speaker 1>my name was just Laurel, as my family bore no titles.

0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:33.120
<v Speaker 1>But who was I to correct a witch who'd likely

0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:37.720
<v Speaker 1>been born before my long dead great grandmother. She stopped

0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:42.440
<v Speaker 1>in front of me. Do you come willing or merely accepting?

0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>She asked? There was an old scar on her cheek,

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:52.520
<v Speaker 1>a crescent moon white against her dark olive skin. I

0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:57.439
<v Speaker 1>come willing, I said, My voice wavered as I spoke.

0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 1>What had I gotten myself into? With eyes as old

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and wise as hers, how could she not see right

0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 1>through me? The witch smiled. Some of her teeth were yellow,

0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.480
<v Speaker 1>some of her teeth were black. One of her teeth

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:19.719
<v Speaker 1>was captain gold, another captain pearl. The contrast between them

0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:28.040
<v Speaker 1>all was unnerving. Not many come willing, not these past years, why,

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:33.240
<v Speaker 1>I asked. She ignored my question and went back to

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:37.320
<v Speaker 1>stand in the line. Only a handful of people had

0:28:37.359 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 1>gathered to see this strange procession. The herbalist, a few farmers,

0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:45.880
<v Speaker 1>the midwife, River's mother. If any one of them said

0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:48.680
<v Speaker 1>anything about me dressed up like a girl, the whole

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:53.240
<v Speaker 1>plan would fall apart. My mother stood among the onlookers,

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.560
<v Speaker 1>balancing my wicker basket of clothes on her hip, holding

0:28:56.600 --> 0:29:00.720
<v Speaker 1>it by one of the woven shoulder straps. Laurel of

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.240
<v Speaker 1>the lead, I summon you into the order of the

0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Vine today and forever you are, Laurel of the Vine.

0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:12.920
<v Speaker 1>I nodded. I knew no courtly manners for an event

0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 1>like this. You have anything to bring with you, just clothes,

0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 1>I said, My mother walked towards me, then setting the

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:26.959
<v Speaker 1>basket down by my feet. Tears welled in the corners

0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:30.560
<v Speaker 1>of her eyes. You've been like a daughter to me,

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 1>my mother said. She winked and hugged me for a moment.

0:29:36.600 --> 0:29:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Go off and be your best self. The chrome looked

0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:44.560
<v Speaker 1>between me and my mother for a brief moment, as

0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:48.440
<v Speaker 1>if noticing the similarities in our features, but she said

0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 1>nothing with no more formality. The line of witches turned

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 1>and walked out of town. I grabbed my basket of

0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 1>clothes and hurried after. Hey, I hadn't seen through me.

0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:07.440
<v Speaker 1>I was going to be a witch. I wasn't shaking anymore.

0:30:08.800 --> 0:30:09.680
<v Speaker 1>I was grinning.

0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:15.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yay.

0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.800
<v Speaker 1>And that is the first chapter of the Sapling Cage.

0:30:18.880 --> 0:30:21.000
<v Speaker 2>And if you want to hear more of it, you

0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 2>have to get the audiobook and you can listen to

0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Jackie read you the entire book, which I didn't think

0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna do, like because I don't tend to

0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 2>read my own stuff too much. I mean, like, I

0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:38.120
<v Speaker 2>actually have to read this again like a bunch because

0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:41.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm working on the sequels. Right Oh sure, yeah, yeah,

0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:44.040
<v Speaker 2>but like I think I'm gonna listen to audiobook of it.

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I think it's gonna be fun.

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I had a wonderful time working on it,

0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:52.600
<v Speaker 1>just because like there were so many like cool characters,

0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and also like I fell in love with the setting

0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.480
<v Speaker 1>as well, and also like the concept of like here's

0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:03.040
<v Speaker 1>this coming of age Matt story that's not turfy. Yeah totally,

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, like speaking as a former Potterhead like it was.

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:11.479
<v Speaker 1>It was really really nice to to have like a

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:13.560
<v Speaker 1>magic story that I got to tell because this was

0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:16.360
<v Speaker 1>the first time I had ever gotten to tell any

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of coming of age story as like a trans

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 1>person okay, or if not the first one of the

0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:26.440
<v Speaker 1>first yeah, but yeah, so it it meant a lot

0:31:26.520 --> 0:31:29.440
<v Speaker 1>that I got to like sort of help bring this

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:32.840
<v Speaker 1>story to life, and I had such a good time

0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.640
<v Speaker 1>with it. And I will say this job is a

0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:38.080
<v Speaker 1>lot easier when the writing is good. And the writing

0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 1>is so good in this book, So thank you. Even

0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:43.120
<v Speaker 1>if you're not going to listen to me, you should

0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:46.719
<v Speaker 1>buy the book listeners, you should buy the book and

0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:50.240
<v Speaker 1>give it a read, because holy hell, it's a wonderful story.

0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Even with the way you're saying about you know, the

0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:55.600
<v Speaker 1>writing itself on something right when I read for this show.

0:31:56.480 --> 0:31:59.160
<v Speaker 1>I find that certain stories are so much easier to

0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 1>read than others, just in terms of the number of

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.560
<v Speaker 1>retakes I need to do. And it's interesting because even

0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 1>listening to you, like, obviously no one.

0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Will hear that you ever had to do any retakes.

0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 1>But there's a.

0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Couple, right, a few, and but most of the retakes

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 2>are kind of like the way that you accidentally read

0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 2>it first is the way that's a little bit more natural,

0:32:18.600 --> 0:32:22.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, So just interesting thinking about the way that, Yeah,

0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the type of pros like, especially when I read like

0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:28.240
<v Speaker 2>weird old nineteenth century stuff, I'm like, nothing's written in

0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 2>the way that you expect it to be, and you know, but.

0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:33.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, I don't know.

0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:35.120
<v Speaker 2>It's funny because I'm like usually talk about the text

0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:37.600
<v Speaker 2>or whatever afterwards, but then I'm like, well, I wrote it.

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I have both all of the thoughts and none of

0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:41.040
<v Speaker 2>the thoughts. I mean, let me ask you a few

0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:41.640
<v Speaker 2>questions about it.

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sure, So I think I remember when we were

0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:46.600
<v Speaker 1>like talking in pre production about this, you said you

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:50.000
<v Speaker 1>had started writing this story what like ten years back, almost.

0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Ten years back, it was probably twenty sixteen or so. Wow,

0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:53.840
<v Speaker 2>eight years or so.

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And was there something that sort of like helped

0:32:56.440 --> 0:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>this story had come to you where there were like

0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:00.240
<v Speaker 1>experiences you had or were you just like, wow, we

0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:01.760
<v Speaker 1>were missing this kind of story.

0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 2>There's a couple different things. There's like one that I

0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:06.640
<v Speaker 2>give credit to. Have you read The Song of the Lion,

0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 2>a series by Timora Pierce. I have not, but that's

0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>not the first time I've heard of that series. Yeah,

0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:15.280
<v Speaker 2>it's about a young girl whose brother is promised to

0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:18.200
<v Speaker 2>go be a night and doesn't want to be a knight.

0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:21.240
<v Speaker 2>He wants to be a wizard, and so she dresses

0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:23.920
<v Speaker 2>up as a boy and goes off and becomes a knight.

0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 2>And I read that when I was in fifth grade

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.240
<v Speaker 2>and it blew my little gender confused brain in a

0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:32.200
<v Speaker 2>way that I still don't entirely know how to wrap

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>my head around, Like, oh, yeah, I'm a girl who

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 2>likes swords who pretended to be a boy for her

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:40.680
<v Speaker 2>entire childhood, Like you know, I identify with that character.

0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and I wanted to do something kind of

0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:46.360
<v Speaker 2>the other direction. And there's actually a short story that

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:48.520
<v Speaker 2>someone who's sometimes a guest on my other show, Lori

0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Penny wrote, I actually don't think it's been published, but

0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 2>I read it while we were in a writing workshop

0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.320
<v Speaker 2>together that had as like a side character a boy

0:33:55.400 --> 0:33:57.920
<v Speaker 2>who went off to become a witch. And so I

0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.520
<v Speaker 2>think that that idea was always kind of sitting in

0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:02.600
<v Speaker 2>the back of my mind, and I very like confused

0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 2>ideas about you know, gender is like a moving target

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:06.840
<v Speaker 2>and the way we talk about it as a society

0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:09.200
<v Speaker 2>as a moving target. It's absolutely it's different now than

0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:11.120
<v Speaker 2>it was in twenty sixteen when I came out, And

0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:13.520
<v Speaker 2>it's different in twenty sixteen than it was in two

0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:17.959
<v Speaker 2>thousand and four when I, you know, first started calling

0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.799
<v Speaker 2>myself Margaret, because I managed to call myself Margaret for

0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.160
<v Speaker 2>twelve years before I bothered telling anyone I was a girl.

0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:25.279
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes that's how it goes, I know.

0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:27.160
<v Speaker 2>And like that wasice about like punk scenes, just people

0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:32.520
<v Speaker 2>were like all right, yeah, like yeah, sure, yeah. When

0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:34.120
<v Speaker 2>I was like a street kid, like I remember like

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.560
<v Speaker 2>sleeping in Tompkins Square Park and I would do this

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:39.839
<v Speaker 2>thing where I would wear cargo pants and then a

0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.799
<v Speaker 2>loose MAXI skirt over it, and so that when I

0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:45.279
<v Speaker 2>needed to like boy mode really quickly, I would just

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:49.040
<v Speaker 2>tuck the skirt into the pockets of the cargo pants.

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:51.719
<v Speaker 2>That's a smart move. Yeah, yeah, no, it worked for me.

0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:53.080
<v Speaker 2>And like I remember one time I was like just

0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:54.880
<v Speaker 2>like sleeping in the park during the day and then

0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:56.879
<v Speaker 2>I like woke up and ran somewhere and I wasn't

0:34:56.920 --> 0:34:58.759
<v Speaker 2>thinking about it. My like skirt fell down and all

0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.200
<v Speaker 2>the like. They weren't like the cool punks. They were

0:35:01.239 --> 0:35:03.880
<v Speaker 2>like the kind of scary punks or whatever. They saw it,

0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 2>and they were like, yeah, all right whatever, And I

0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:09.359
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh right, folks who live on the edge

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:11.520
<v Speaker 2>of society don't give a shit about stuff like this. Yeah.

0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's really funny. How like like you said,

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:17.520
<v Speaker 1>how like gender is this like constantly moving target and

0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:19.280
<v Speaker 1>all of that. Yeah, because like, yeah, that is something

0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:21.960
<v Speaker 1>that I'm still feeling, because like for me, it was

0:35:22.000 --> 0:35:26.719
<v Speaker 1>like I remember being young and like like feeling some

0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:29.919
<v Speaker 1>way about gender but not really having like the vocabulary

0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:33.200
<v Speaker 1>to describe it. I remember like learning what a lesbian

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:35.319
<v Speaker 1>was and like feeling like, wow, that resonates with me

0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:37.239
<v Speaker 1>for some reason. I guess I'm like a lesbian and

0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:38.720
<v Speaker 1>the body of a young boy. And then I proceeded

0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:40.439
<v Speaker 1>to not think about that for fifteen years.

0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:41.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, totally.

0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:43.000
<v Speaker 1>And then like when I was in high school, I

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 1>started to like develop like attractions to like the boys

0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:49.240
<v Speaker 1>my age, and I was like, oh, oh, so I'm gay. Okay,

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.080
<v Speaker 1>I guess that makes sense. And then I ran with

0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 1>that until I was in college, and then my freshman

0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:56.400
<v Speaker 1>year I had this way I can only describe as

0:35:56.440 --> 0:35:59.120
<v Speaker 1>a dysphoric breakdown in front of the mirror, okay. And

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.799
<v Speaker 1>then that got me like being like, okay, what is

0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 1>this gender stuff? Because stuff is happening. Then I learned

0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:07.640
<v Speaker 1>like about the gender fluid kind of label and non

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:12.320
<v Speaker 1>binary and just how it's not necessarily like this purely

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.319
<v Speaker 1>defined like man or woman kind of thing, and how

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.560
<v Speaker 1>that was like a thing, and I was like, Okay,

0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:19.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm probably somewhere in that camp. I guess like we'll

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:23.959
<v Speaker 1>go with like queer ish and then I didn't really

0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 1>do anything beyond that. I had like done some research

0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:27.840
<v Speaker 1>into like do I want to transition? Do I not

0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:29.920
<v Speaker 1>want to transition? And like at the time, I was

0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:32.320
<v Speaker 1>like I don't think this is for me, at least

0:36:32.360 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 1>not right now. Yeah, and then I ran with that

0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 1>of like, yeah, I'm this queer person who's very like

0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:41.040
<v Speaker 1>male presenting and all of that, and then the pandemic

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:44.799
<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty happened, and I had all of this

0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:49.480
<v Speaker 1>free time to actually think about like things in life

0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:52.799
<v Speaker 1>and like being like, huh, when faced with the very

0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:57.320
<v Speaker 1>real prospect of my own mortality, am I like any regrets?

0:36:57.400 --> 0:36:59.680
<v Speaker 1>And I was like kind of wish I had explored

0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:02.520
<v Speaker 1>gender a little more, and you know, maybe like dipped

0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:04.359
<v Speaker 1>my toes and so like I don't know, like what's

0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>HRT about. And then I remember like having those thoughts,

0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 1>and I was like, oh, son of a bitch, Okay,

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:11.160
<v Speaker 1>I guess I have to do the thing I've been

0:37:11.160 --> 0:37:13.440
<v Speaker 1>avoiding doing. I guess I have to do the thing

0:37:13.480 --> 0:37:15.840
<v Speaker 1>that I've been avoiding thinking about for a while. And

0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:19.440
<v Speaker 1>so I got a therapist and like talked things out,

0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:22.680
<v Speaker 1>and like we both very quickly like came to the

0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:26.319
<v Speaker 1>consensus of like yeah, you're trans yeah, and I was

0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:30.120
<v Speaker 1>able to start HRT hell yeah. But like, yeah, it's

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:34.239
<v Speaker 1>really funny because like I remember starting like HRT and

0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 1>like I was very much like playing with like they

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.040
<v Speaker 1>then she heard she they, I was she they for

0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:46.520
<v Speaker 1>a while, and then I kept getting consistently they themmed

0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:50.440
<v Speaker 1>only and so I was like Okay. I think a

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:53.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of this was from like the the cist people

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:56.480
<v Speaker 1>in my life who I love dearly. Yeah, I like

0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:58.840
<v Speaker 1>love you all and like, believe me, I was happy

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.680
<v Speaker 1>that y'all were so to practice theay them because that's

0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:02.880
<v Speaker 1>hard for SIS people.

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:03.560
<v Speaker 2>Right, totally.

0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:06.279
<v Speaker 1>But it eventually got to the point where I was like,

0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:10.080
<v Speaker 1>all right, y'all are constantly they theming me and never

0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.040
<v Speaker 1>she she hurrang me, So y'all have lost your day

0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:16.600
<v Speaker 1>them rights and so and so I was like strictly

0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:19.440
<v Speaker 1>she her for a couple of years after that, and

0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:21.400
<v Speaker 1>then it's only recently that I have gone back to

0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:24.760
<v Speaker 1>she they because I was like, Okay, this feels more accurate.

0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:26.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.120
<v Speaker 1>And another weird thing that I noticed was like, while

0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 1>while transitioning and like allowing myself to like have these

0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 1>thoughts and things, was that I realized that I didn't

0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:37.160
<v Speaker 1>suddenly go from the gay man that I thought I

0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:41.200
<v Speaker 1>was to the straight girl m hm. And like I started,

0:38:41.239 --> 0:38:43.400
<v Speaker 1>I started to realize I had like sapphic feelings for

0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:47.279
<v Speaker 1>some women, and I was like, oh, oh, we're by yeah,

0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:47.919
<v Speaker 1>son of a bitch.

0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:48.320
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:51.480
<v Speaker 1>So over the years, I've resonated with pretty much all

0:38:51.520 --> 0:38:55.759
<v Speaker 1>the letters. Yeah, and I've won a cuer bingo. It's like,

0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:58.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what I win other than bragging rights,

0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:03.440
<v Speaker 1>I say, your quote, but like a combination of oppression

0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:04.840
<v Speaker 1>points and regular oppression.

0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:05.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:07.640
<v Speaker 1>All this is to say is just that, like, yeah,

0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:12.000
<v Speaker 1>gender is funny. Gender and sexuality are weird and cool,

0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.680
<v Speaker 1>and you know, yeah, it's not always this super defined thing.

0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I really resonate with what you're saying about. Like, for me,

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.279
<v Speaker 2>the decision to come out in twenty sixteen was that

0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:23.800
<v Speaker 2>a transoitman I knew died in the ghost Ship fire

0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:27.239
<v Speaker 2>in Oakland, which was a DIY space that burned down,

0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.759
<v Speaker 2>and I believe the end of twenty sixteen, and it

0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:31.799
<v Speaker 2>was like right before my birthday, and I was just

0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:36.160
<v Speaker 2>like and it's awful and selfish, but you know, I

0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:38.160
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, what if I died? Right, So it's

0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.560
<v Speaker 2>the same thing. It's like staring at your mortality and

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:44.319
<v Speaker 2>you're like, well, I don't want to be remembered so

0:39:44.520 --> 0:39:48.400
<v Speaker 2>completely incorrectly, you know, I like just don't want to

0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:50.960
<v Speaker 2>be like just like imagining in my own tombstone with

0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>like the wrong name on it, you know, And you're

0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:58.160
<v Speaker 2>just like, yeah, it's hard and it's hard to imagine that,

0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:00.799
<v Speaker 2>and so that was like, yeah, that was a lot

0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of what made it feel necessary for me to come out.

0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:08.279
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting because in this book, you know, the protagonist,

0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:11.000
<v Speaker 2>not to spoil anything, the protagonist is like, you know,

0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:15.080
<v Speaker 2>questioning her feelings around gender and like explores it in

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:17.160
<v Speaker 2>a lot of different ways. And one of the things

0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:19.000
<v Speaker 2>I really liked about getting to do this is that

0:40:19.200 --> 0:40:22.240
<v Speaker 2>getting to explore gender in a world that just isn't ours,

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Like this isn't like, no one's going to come up

0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:28.319
<v Speaker 2>in this book spoiler, and no one's going to be like, Hi,

0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm she they you know, even though I'm a she

0:40:31.960 --> 0:40:34.359
<v Speaker 2>the it was written by SHEI the right. But like,

0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:40.080
<v Speaker 2>but since gender is a social construct, it's going to

0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:43.759
<v Speaker 2>be constructed differently in a like medieval fantasy setting, and

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:45.480
<v Speaker 2>that's like one of the things that I really want

0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:47.719
<v Speaker 2>to explore with it, and I hope that folks are

0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:50.080
<v Speaker 2>able to kind of get out of it.

0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm so looking forward to reading

0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:58.800
<v Speaker 1>the next installment in the series because just to watch

0:40:58.800 --> 0:41:02.320
<v Speaker 1>how more things develop with this story. And like, certain

0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:07.440
<v Speaker 1>again I won't give spoilers, but yeah, certain relationships and

0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:11.120
<v Speaker 1>friendships and dynamics that developed in this first book, and

0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:13.520
<v Speaker 1>see how they continue to develop and grow.

0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if folks want to hear what the book is,

0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:21.680
<v Speaker 2>you could listen to it. And if you're like, I

0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:23.239
<v Speaker 2>hate to say, it's like, it's obviously a book about

0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:27.560
<v Speaker 2>a transgirl, but it is not primarily a book about gender.

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.400
<v Speaker 2>It is primarily a book about why I like spears.

0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:34.440
<v Speaker 2>It is primarily a book that is a you know,

0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:38.520
<v Speaker 2>high fantasy ya about I mean, honestly, the big metaphor

0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>that is in this if you listen to my history podcast,

0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:42.680
<v Speaker 2>you'll understand that I'm obsessed with like the enclosure of

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:45.480
<v Speaker 2>the commons and taking things that are like wild and

0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:47.759
<v Speaker 2>communal and putting them into the hands of only a

0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:50.919
<v Speaker 2>few people in a specialized way. And they like how

0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:54.440
<v Speaker 2>that's empowered capitalism and all those things. Like that's actually

0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the the plot, right, The character and the identity of

0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:02.560
<v Speaker 2>the character is that she is transfeminine. The plot of

0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:06.360
<v Speaker 2>the book is these trees that are dying and what

0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.680
<v Speaker 2>is to be done about it. So if you're like, well,

0:42:09.719 --> 0:42:11.720
<v Speaker 2>if you hate gender stuff, you're not gonna like this book.

0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:14.279
<v Speaker 2>But if you're like not specifically looking for a gender book.

0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:16.600
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't matter. This isn't specifically a gender book. It

0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:19.360
<v Speaker 2>just happens to be right that as well. It just

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:22.719
<v Speaker 2>happens to have a transfemine protagonist. Yeah, and like other

0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.920
<v Speaker 2>queer people in it too, but it's never At least,

0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:27.640
<v Speaker 2>the way it read to me was like it seemed

0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:30.640
<v Speaker 2>perfectly natural. It didn't feel like, I know, there are

0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.320
<v Speaker 2>folks out there who say that we're constantly like shoving

0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:35.719
<v Speaker 2>it down their throat or whatever, and I mean, I

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.400
<v Speaker 2>can speak for myself here, but like that's not at

0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:41.200
<v Speaker 2>all how the text came across to me. But if

0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:43.680
<v Speaker 2>you're listening to this and you would like to start

0:42:44.200 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 2>a campaign against this book, all publicity is free publicity,

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:51.120
<v Speaker 2>and so I will pretend that it's a gender book

0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:56.120
<v Speaker 2>if I don't know if I actually feel that way,

0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:57.480
<v Speaker 2>because like part of me is like ha ha ha

0:42:57.600 --> 0:42:59.560
<v Speaker 2>if I got a list of banned books, like, imagine

0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:01.040
<v Speaker 2>what they'll do for my career, And then I'm like,

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:03.319
<v Speaker 2>it also just sucks because I actually want this book

0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to be available to kids to read.

0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:08.920
<v Speaker 1>The thing, like, yes, yes, that would definitely get more

0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:13.319
<v Speaker 1>eyes on it. And also I I mean listen, Like,

0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:16.640
<v Speaker 1>I think queer stories are really important, and especially like

0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:20.000
<v Speaker 1>stories like this, Like they're always important, but I feel

0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:24.799
<v Speaker 1>like now, especially yeah, in our current political climate and

0:43:24.880 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 1>day and age and all of the scariness that has

0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:31.719
<v Speaker 1>been sort of centered around queer and trans people in particular,

0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:36.160
<v Speaker 1>I think this story is like super important and I

0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:38.839
<v Speaker 1>think people should read it. I know that, like, at

0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:42.000
<v Speaker 1>least again speaking for myself, if I had gotten to

0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:44.239
<v Speaker 1>read this book as a kid, my life would have

0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.799
<v Speaker 1>been very different, yeah, and like positive, Yeah, my life

0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:50.800
<v Speaker 1>would have been really different and I would have figured

0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:52.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff out a lot sooner.

0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:54.200
<v Speaker 2>That was a big part of it, as I was like,

0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I want to write the book that I want to

0:43:57.680 --> 0:43:58.839
<v Speaker 2>give to twelve year old me.

0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.319
<v Speaker 3>You know yeah, yeah yeah, all.

0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:02.759
<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, I think we're kind of out of time,

0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:05.759
<v Speaker 2>but thanks for joining us on coolsone Media book Club.

0:44:05.840 --> 0:44:07.839
<v Speaker 2>The book is called The Saplink Cage. It comes out

0:44:07.880 --> 0:44:11.279
<v Speaker 2>September twenty fourth, twenty twenty four, from Feminist Press, and

0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:13.680
<v Speaker 2>you all should listen to the audiobook. Do you have

0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 2>anything else do you want to plug? You have like

0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:17.200
<v Speaker 2>other books that you're like, go out and listen to

0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:19.040
<v Speaker 2>this other book I did or what else you've been

0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:19.440
<v Speaker 2>working on.

0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Oh God, if you want to hear another story like

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:28.120
<v Speaker 1>narrating like a transperson's perspective, if you listen to five

0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:32.120
<v Speaker 1>part Invention by Andrea J. Buchanan. I got to work

0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:35.879
<v Speaker 1>with four other extremely talented narrators on that, and it's

0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:39.120
<v Speaker 1>a heavy story. It deals with like generational trauma, but

0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:42.800
<v Speaker 1>it's very, very well crafted. And I thought that Zoe's

0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 1>part of it in particular, which is the character that

0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:48.080
<v Speaker 1>I got to read for, was especially handled with care

0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and that was really well done. Another transfer, I recently

0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.319
<v Speaker 1>got to read the autobiography of Philip, a writer who

0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:58.840
<v Speaker 1>is this really badass trans writes activist in Ireland, and

0:44:58.880 --> 0:44:59.720
<v Speaker 1>that was really cool.

0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:00.719
<v Speaker 2>That sounds cool.

0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Other than that, if you're more of like the superhero

0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.399
<v Speaker 1>kind of stuff, I've read several Spider Man books as well,

0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:07.440
<v Speaker 1>so you'll check those out.

0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's secretly trans people in the Spider Man world.

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, whoops. But I've done a lot of different stuff,

0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.440
<v Speaker 1>but I guess those were some of the standouts for me. Okay,

0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:22.719
<v Speaker 1>so I didn't have anything more eloquent to plug or

0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:23.480
<v Speaker 1>to say.

0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, you warn me ahead of time that you're

0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:27.000
<v Speaker 2>not an improvisor. You work from scripts then I and

0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:28.600
<v Speaker 2>then I asked you questions that I didn't warn you

0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:29.319
<v Speaker 2>I was going to ask.

0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:34.959
<v Speaker 1>So sorry, it happens, but I encourage everybody to check

0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:37.040
<v Speaker 1>out more of that quality queer literature.

0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah. And if you want to see the two

0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of us together in person, us even meeting in person

0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.719
<v Speaker 2>for the first time. Yes, on October fifteenth at the

0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:49.839
<v Speaker 2>ann Arbor District Library at the downtown location at six

0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:52.320
<v Speaker 2>thirty pm. I'm going to be on tour with the

0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Sapling Cage and it's going to be sweet because instead

0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:56.200
<v Speaker 2>of me I'm going to do a reading, I'm going

0:45:56.280 --> 0:46:00.640
<v Speaker 2>to make Jackie do it six thirty pm, Octoveber fifteenth,

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the ann Arbor District Library and its downtown location.

0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah, I'm so looking forward to that.

0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:09.520
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'll talk to everyone next week. Have a

0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:10.840
<v Speaker 2>good week.

0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Bye bye.

0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:16.440
<v Speaker 2>It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

0:46:16.680 --> 0:46:19.320
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.480
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0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:25.839
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0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:27.279
<v Speaker 1>find sources for It could Happen Here.

0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:31.840
<v Speaker 2>Updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com Slash Sources thanks for listening.