1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: They begin to release their wildly conflicting accounts about what 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 2: had occurred, and they're hoping to save their lives because 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: if they don't tell a convincing tale, it could be hanged. 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: And so this unleashes this great war of the truth. Here. 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: These men have waged the war against the elements, and 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: now they're going to wage just war over the truth. 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: stories worries with details that have never been published. Tenfold 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: War Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. I love a tale set 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: on the high seas. You can't beat a twisty story 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: about an eighteenth century mutiny and survival and then conflicting accounts. 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: Author David Grant has written about the epic, harrowing saga 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: of a ship and its crew in a book called 23 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: The Wager, A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder. Let's 24 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: jump into the story of the Wager and what its 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: mission was. Where we are in time. 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: So in seventeen thirty nine, an imperial war had broken 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: out between Great Britain and its imperial rival Spain, and 28 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: the Wager the ship had received orders to set sail 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: with a squadron of several other warships on a secret 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: mission to try to capture a Spanish galleon filled with 31 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: so much treasure was known as the Prize of all 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: the Oceans, I believe it or not. That was part 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: of the mission, had a real whiff of piracy about it, 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: even though it was a naval mission and it was 35 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: part of the war. So that was the original order 36 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 2: and kind of what begins this misadventure. 37 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: Anyways, So how many crewmen are we talking about and 38 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: how many officers? What's the hierarchy of the ship as 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: far as you knew. 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: It, Yeah, so in the squadron entirely there are five warships, 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: including the Wager. There's a scouting sloop of smaller ship, 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: and there are two tiny cargo ships that are going 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: to company that are supposed to the company. The expedition 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: partway altogether in the squadron. It would require nearly two 45 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: thousand men and boys to man these ships. And these 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: ships were really very complex. They were kind of the 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: engineering marvels of their time, and so they required skilled men. 48 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: You know, even before the voyage began, the seeds of 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: its destruction were planted. The Wager, which was the smallest 50 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: of the war, it needed about two hundred and fifty men, 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: which was nearly double the number it was designed to carry. 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: But the British Navy had exhausted its supply of volunteers 53 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: and it did not have a conscription back then. So 54 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: what it did was it sent out these press gangs 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: to towns and cities and ports, and they would eyeball 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: people who would eyeball men and boys, and they basically say, oh, 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 2: you got this round hat, you got a little checkered shirt. 58 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: They would even inspect your fingertips to see if you 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 2: had a little tar on them, because tar was used 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: on ships to make everything water resistant, and if they 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: thought so, well, then they would just seize you and 62 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: in effect kidnap you and drag you unwillingly on a 63 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: voyage that might last two to three years. You know, 64 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: no chance to say goodbye or loaded your family. Even then, 65 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: the amilty was sure to mend for this squadron, so 66 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: it took the extreme step of rounding up five hundred 67 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: soldiers from a retirement home. You know, you have to 68 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: have a gallon's humor because it's just so dark. I mean, 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: you rounded up these pensioners who were in their sixties 70 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: and seventies. Many were missing an assortment of limbs, and 71 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: some were so sick they had to be lifted on 72 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: stretchers onto these vessels. So that was the beginning. That's 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: how it all began. 74 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: From what I know about ships in the seventeen hundreds, 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: they were often filled with the people you're describing. It 76 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: could be criminals, people off the street. You know, they 77 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: were trying to supply the ships with everyone and everything 78 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: they possibly could. The officers sometimes were very unprepared and undertrained, 79 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: and maybe we're just there because you know, they were 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: part of high society and this would be an honor 81 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: to head the ship. Is that the case with the squadron, 82 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: Do we have people who really don't belong in high positions? 83 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: The good question. The kind of the expedition who had 84 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 2: not ever led an expedition or done anything of this sort, 85 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: turns out to be extraordinarily competent and capable. More than competent. 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: He has that mysterious qualities that make a great commander, 87 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: which usually not only a master of the wooden world 88 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: of the ship, but he was a master of himself. 89 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: But on these ships you sometimes had aristocratic dandies who 90 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: would be officers. For example, the wage you would eventually 91 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: have a captain who had a very kind of volatile, 92 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: tempestuous personality. And one of the things that makes these 93 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,119 Speaker 2: ships so interesting is that they really were these kind 94 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: of odd, eclectic, floating civilizations. So you would have these 95 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 2: officers who tended to come from the aristocracy and the nobility. 96 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: Many of them were quite well educated. You might have dandies, 97 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: you'd have city paulpers, you'd have these press people on 98 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: the ship unwillingly, you'd have free black seamen, and they're 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: all kind of thrown together onto one of these ships, 100 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: and they have to be somehow molded into a band 101 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: or brothers. 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: So how well does the trip go until it doesn't 103 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: go well? Is everybody getting along or are they staying 104 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: on their mission or are they chasing down the Spanish 105 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: vessels the way they're supposed. 106 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: To the biggest challenge is it takes them a long 107 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: time to get out of the dockyards in England because 108 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: as sophisticated as these ships are with their lethal instruments, 109 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: because they were made for gun battles and also meant 110 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: to be the home for all these seilers living together 111 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: in close quarters, they were also made a very perish materials, 112 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: which was wood, and so the ships have been kind 113 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: of laid up on rotten rode for months and months 114 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 2: and months waiting to finally get off. And the wager 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: is a little bit the ugly duckling of the runt 116 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: of the expedition of the warships, because it had not 117 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: been born for battle. It was remade from a merchant 118 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: ship into warship. It was the lowest ranking warship. It 119 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 2: was the sixth rate, which mean and had twenty eight cannons. 120 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: It was a little tubby and it kind of doubled 121 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: as a storeship for the expedition. But eventually they finally 122 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: set off nearly a year after they were supposed to, 123 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: and they get across the Atlantic, but almost immediately everything 124 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: begins to go wrong. I mean, the ships are working 125 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: and functioning, and the crews are working, functioning, but pretty 126 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: soon they find they're being chased by a Spanish ramada 127 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: that is larger than their own squadron, so they're trying 128 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: to outrun it, and then they have to sail around 129 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: Cape Horn. And Cape Horn is at the very tip 130 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: of South America, because their mission is to sail around 131 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: Cape Horn and then into the Pacific and try to 132 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: intercept the guy in off the coast of the Philippines 133 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: and Cape Horn. The seas around Cape Horn are among 134 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: the most violent in the world. It is the one 135 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: place on Earth where the seas travel thirteen thousand miles uninterrupted. 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: They never get blocked by land, and so because of that, 137 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 2: they just accumulate enormous force. A Cape Horn roller wave 138 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: could dwarf an ninemy foot mass. There are the strongest 139 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: currents on Earth as they funnel into this passageway between 140 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: the tip of South America and Antarctica. And then there 141 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: are the winds which frequently accelerate the hurricane force. Herman Melville, 142 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: who would later make the journey around the Horn, compare 143 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: it to a descent into Hell and Dante's Inferno. Dramatic, yes, 144 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: very dramatic, and as Velveo is, nobody wrote about the 145 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: sea better. And so immediately they are just battered by 146 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: these storms day and night. The ship's breaking apart, the 147 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: seals blowing out. And at that very point when they're 148 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: going to need every person on board these ships, if 149 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: they're gonna have any chance to persevere, what happens. They 150 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: begin to suffer from a mysterious illness. 151 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: I've read about this illness and it sounds just terrible. 152 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: What is this? 153 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: First they suffered from typhus and have high fevers, and 154 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: several of them die. And then when they reach Cape Horn, 155 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: they are suffering from a new illness, the great enigma 156 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: the sea, which was scurvy. And their teeth begins to 157 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: fall out, and their hair falls out, and their eyes bulge, 158 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: and even the cartilage that seemed to glue together their 159 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: bones is coming undone. There was one semen in one 160 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: of the accounts, described the fractured a limb in a 161 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: battle fifty years earlier fighting in war, and of course 162 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: the fracture of long since heale, but suddenly with this disease, 163 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: it suddenly refractures in the very same place. And something 164 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: I didn't realize about scurvy is that it can affect 165 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: the senses. And one of these even described how the 166 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: disease got into our brains and we went raving mad. 167 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: But they didn't know then was that the cure was 168 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 2: so simple, that they were suffering from a vitamin C 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 2: deficiency on the ships because they didn't bring fruit vegetables, 170 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: they'd have refrigeration, and that the cure had actually been 171 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: right within the reach when they had stopped at Brazil, 172 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: before they came around the Cape Horn, there were actually 173 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: limes on this island. And of course, later in the century, 174 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: when the British Navy discovers that scurvy could be cured 175 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: with lines, they would carry limes on their ships, and 176 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: of course British svem became known as limeys. But back 177 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 2: then they didn't know that, and this expedition suffered what 178 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: is considered one of the worst scurvy outbreaks in maritime history, 179 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: and hundreds and hundreds members of this expedition perish. Their 180 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: bodies were just thrown overboard unceremoniously. 181 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: And is this also the time period when they were 182 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: eating bad meat in the ten Cans? 183 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know the foods that started to 184 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: rock the bread again. You don't have refrigeration on these ships, 185 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: so these little biscuits they have are so hard and 186 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: they're kind of worm eating and when they would hit them, 187 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 2: they would describe hitting them against the table and they 188 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: would just kind of disintegrate into dust. Some of the 189 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: meat had spoiled on the expedition, so they are suffering 190 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: from poor provisions. And you know, on top of that, 191 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 2: when they're around Cape Horn, it's so rough. The seas 192 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: are so bad they can't really even use the stove, 193 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: so they often have to eat raw meat. 194 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: So the Wager and its ships are battered and the 195 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: men are dying and battered, and dead bodies are thrown overboard. 196 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: But then it gets worse. When does it get worse? 197 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: As if we didn't get worse. 198 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: So the ships are desperate to stay together around Cape 199 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: Horn because they know if they separate, there'll be no 200 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: one there to rescue them if something happens. So what 201 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: do they do? You know, it's kind of interesting you 202 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: learn these things, like how did you communicate back then 203 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: when you didn't have iPhones, You didn't have any telecommunications. 204 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: And so what they would do is they would fire 205 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: blanks in their cannon. So they're firing their cannons repeatedly 206 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: to signal the location. But eventually the blasket drowned out 207 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: and all the ships scattered in the storm. They're all separated, 208 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: and the Wager, as a new commander, relatively new commander, 209 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: man named David Chip, finds himself and his ship all 210 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: alone and left to their own destiny. And he was 211 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: recently promoted to be captain. He had previously been a lieutenant. 212 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: He was somebody who back on land had kind of 213 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: been plagued by debts and frustration and chased by creditors, 214 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: but on a ship he had always found refuge. And 215 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: on this expedition he had finally attained what he had 216 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: always just kind of obsessively longed for, which was this 217 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: chance to captain his own warship. So he's determined to 218 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: prove himself as this new captain, and he does manage 219 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: to steer the Wager around Cape Horn, and he wants 220 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: to meet at a predetermined rendezvous point that they had 221 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: in case they were ever separated off the coast of Chile. 222 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: But he and the other seamen on the wager are 223 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: suffering from another huge challenge, which is they don't know 224 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 2: precisely where they are on the map. They could determine 225 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: their latitude by reading the stars, but they had no 226 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: way of knowing their longitude because that would require a 227 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: reliable clock, and they hadn't yet been invented, and so 228 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: they're forced to rely on what was called dead reckoning, 229 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: which is essentially informed guestswork an elite of faith. And 230 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: as the wager is coming up the coast to Chile 231 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: off Patagonia through the Pacific, their longitude, their estimation of 232 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: their longitude turns out not only are you wrong, but 233 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: wrong by hundreds of miles, and they suddenly find themselves 234 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: trapped in a gulf known as a golf would a 235 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: pain us, which translates as the golf of sorrows, or 236 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 2: some seamen would translate as the gulf of pain. And 237 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: there the wager suddenly hits a submerged rock. 238 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: You talk about in the book how blindly they would sail, 239 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: Tell me how they would figure out the depth, because 240 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting. 241 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well even everything. I mean, they would do soundings 242 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: by dropping ropes with weights to try to figure out depths, 243 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: and then they would try to measure their speed by 244 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: having knots in the rope, and then they would count 245 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: the knots, which is why in nautical miles they refer 246 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: to knots. You know, so many of these things derived 247 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: from the sea the way they counted their speed, and 248 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: these were kind of rough estimations, and you know, instead 249 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: of clocks, they had hour glasses, so you know, everything 250 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: they had to do was often estimating, so they were 251 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: sailing partially blind. So they hit the submerged rock. The 252 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: wage was about one hundred and twenty three feet three 253 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: masted ship, as were other warships. And what's really important 254 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: to understand is that these were buoyant castles. They were 255 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: the homes for these seamen. You know, this is where 256 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: they were going to live for years at a time, 257 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: and most seamen back then didn't know how to swim, 258 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: so you could imagine they're terror They hit the submerged 259 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: rock and a part of the world none of them 260 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: ever been to. They have no idea where they are 261 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: exactly the rudder shatters a two ton anchor. I imagine 262 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: the weight of that. A two ton anchor falls, It rattles, 263 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: breaks loose, it falls, and it plunges through the hull, 264 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: leaving a hole. And there the ship is kind of 265 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: teetering for a moment, and then another mountainous wave comes 266 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: and it sweeps the wager off these rocks, and the 267 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: ship is creaming through this gulf and through this minefield 268 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: of rocks with no rudder to stare by water surging 269 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: into the hole, through the hole, until at last it 270 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: crashes into a cluster of rocks, and there the ship 271 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: finally begins to completely rip apart. The planks are shattering, 272 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: the decks are caving in, cabins are collapsing, water is 273 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: surging through the bottom of the hull. Rats are scurring upward. 274 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: The seamen who have been suffering from scurvy, who were 275 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: below in their hammocks and were unable to get out 276 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: in time, they drown. But the ship did not yet 277 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: completely sing. It became wedge between these two pillars of rocks, 278 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: and so the survivors kind of climb up onto the 279 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: rendants of the ship, and there they look at in 280 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: the distance and through the mists they see a desolate island. 281 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: How do we get to the island? Are these kinds 282 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: of ships equipped with buiz or Dinghey's or or what. 283 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they didn't carry life boots back then, but 284 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: they did carry three or four transport boats. And these 285 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: were usually boats that could be rowed, and they could 286 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: also you could put a little sail on them sometimes 287 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: to propel them. But they were relatively small and they 288 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: were really used to kind of ferry people ashore or 289 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: sometimes take supplies if you were going ashore. One of 290 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: the largest of the transpert boats actually is cracked and 291 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: they can't use that, but they do get a couple 292 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: of these small transport boats eventually off the boat and 293 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: they ferry them men back and forth onto the island, 294 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: and about one hundred and forty five of them eventually 295 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: make it to the island. Of course, that's where the 296 00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: real help began. 297 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: So these one hundred and forty five men land on 298 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: this island. What if they initially see they must just 299 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: be grateful to be on land. 300 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So at first they're hoping they might find their salvation. 301 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: You know, they get to this island of the journey's 302 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: been hell already and they think, well, okay, well maybe 303 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: we got here, we're still breathing, and maybe this blazel, 304 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: you know, have sustenance and a way to get home. 305 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: And you know, at first they're not even sure if 306 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,239 Speaker 2: they're on an island or on mainland. That's how bewildered 307 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: they are. But the island turns out to be wind 308 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: sweat and barren and mountainous. The temperature hovers around freezing 309 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: or there in the wintertime, and it's really damp. It 310 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: it's always there's so much precipitation, so it's always raining 311 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: or sleeping. And worst of all, they could find virtually 312 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: no food. There are some clams and snails that can 313 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: find along a little beach hut, but they soon exhaust those. 314 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: They find the little sprouts of celery, which mysteriously cures 315 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: they're scurvy, mysteriously to them. I had somebody seeing it. 316 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: But they don't find any animals on the island. And 317 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: there's some birds kind of flying tantalizingly off. 318 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: In the distance, amazing, And they can't fish. I'm assuming 319 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: they're just not equipped. 320 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't have any equipment for fish, and because 321 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: it's so rough around there and the waves crashing. They 322 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: were just shocked to discover they didn't really see any 323 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: fish even close, you know, coming in ever close to 324 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: the shore. 325 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: So how do they survive? Are they at least able 326 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: to build some sort of shelter. 327 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So first they try to build an encampment. Captain 328 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: David che tries to basically build an imperial outpost, and 329 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: he believes they should be governed, you know, by the 330 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: same rules that it existed on the ship, and the 331 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: only way they going to survive is if they maintain cohesion, 332 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: okay exactly, and they should be governed by the same 333 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: hierarchical system. So he would still be in charge. And 334 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 2: they start to you know, pull together bits of shelter, 335 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: and so they start to build some homes. They start 336 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: to figure out how to collect some water. They are 337 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: then begin to pretty you know, ingeniously and dangerously try 338 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: to do kind of a salvage operation to go out 339 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 2: to the wreck of the Wagers that's sinking further and 340 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: further into the sea to see what supplies they can 341 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: poke out of there and dig out of there, and 342 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 2: what provisions. So they start to collect so they get 343 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 2: some flower and some other provisions a little bit of 344 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: meat and they set up a store tent with rations. 345 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: But gradually as they begin to starve and they descend 346 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: into these warring camps. 347 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: So they are now starting to separate. Are we seeing 348 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: leaders emerge on these camps or is David Chap just 349 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: desperately trying to stay in charge of everyone. 350 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are three factions. One faction the other seamen 351 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 2: referred to as the Seceeders, and they are simply like 352 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: a pack of pillaging marauders who break off and roam 353 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: the island threateningly committing crimes. And they're kind of like 354 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: a terror to everyone, and they are kind of set apart. 355 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: And then in the main encampment there are two main factions. 356 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: One faction is led by Captain Cheap and his loyal followers, 357 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: though they are dwindling in number. And then there is 358 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: a gunner from the ship named John Bulkeley. We don't 359 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 2: know what John Bulkeley looked like because he could not 360 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 2: afford to have had a portrait made of him. He 361 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 2: came from the lower to middle classes, but he was 362 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: very literate. He was a compulsive dier, so we know 363 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: what he thought. He had been. In many ways, the 364 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: most skilled semen on the wager and he was an 365 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: instinctive leader, but on a ship he knew. Because of 366 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: his station during those times of very rigid class structures, 367 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 2: it was unlikely that he would ever be the commander 368 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: of a warship. But suddenly, on this island, all his 369 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: skills start to manifest themselves, and he's very capable, cunning, 370 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: and genius, and he's kind of the most active and 371 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: kind of pulling them in together desperate to get off 372 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 2: the island. And so the men begin to have these 373 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 2: philosophical debates on the island even while they are starving. 374 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: You know, what is the nature of leadership? Should Sheep 375 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: remain the leader because he'd been their leader inship? Or 376 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: in what Bulkley described, did this state of nature? Did 377 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: they need new rules and new regulations? And could somebody 378 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: like him who had not been from the aristocracy suddenly 379 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 2: become a commander in his own right. 380 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: Was everyone convinced that they absolutely had to leave the 381 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: island there was no choice, or were there a faction 382 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: that just said, we're never getting off this island and 383 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: we have to make the best of what we have 384 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: and maybe we can figure out how to fish later. 385 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 2: I think for the most part, they all wanted to 386 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: get off the island. I mean, the seceeders are kind 387 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: of a crazed pack, but for the most part, everybody 388 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: is desperate to get off the island because they don't 389 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: know how to survive in that place. So if they 390 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: had a will to live, they wanted to find a 391 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: way off. But they're visions of what they should do 392 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: when they get off the island fuel this kind of 393 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 2: titanic battle between Captain Cheap and the gunner John Bulkeley. 394 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: Are they going to try to use these transport boats? 395 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: Is that their idea to literally sail thousands of miles 396 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: to get back home. 397 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So eventually they have a couple of the small 398 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: transfer boats. The carpenter. There's a carpenter on the ships, 399 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: and the carpenter was actually a very talented carpenter, is 400 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: by the most talented carpenter in the expedition. He's also 401 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: John Bulkeley's closest friend. And he comes up with this 402 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: idea that if they could salvage what was known as 403 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: the longboat, which was the larger of these transfer boats, 404 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: which was all kind of shattered on the on the vest, 405 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 2: if they could salvage it, then they could try to 406 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 2: rebuild it and expand it into a large enough vessel that, 407 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: along with the two other couple other tiny transfer boats, 408 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 2: they might be able to get off this island. And 409 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: so for a brief moment they're actually united around this scheme. 410 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: The two factions in the main camp working day and 411 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: night to try to build this craft. But eventually they 412 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: have two very different ideas of how that vessel that 413 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: has slowly emerged urging should be used. Captain Sheep, who 414 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: is very dutiful and stubborn, is desperate almost for a 415 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: bit of redemption, is determined to take this craft and 416 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: believes they should sail northward towards the closest Spanish settlement, 417 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: who again they were at war with Spain at that time, 418 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 2: and they try to seize the ship some kind of 419 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 2: trading vessel, and to try to meet up with the 420 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: leader of their own expedition, the squadron again and go 421 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: on their way continue on the expedition. Bulkley thinks this 422 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: is nots and thinks, you know, we've had enough and 423 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: this war has been a disaster, and this expedition has 424 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,239 Speaker 2: been a disaster, and it's time to just try to 425 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 2: get home. So he comes up with a separate planet's 426 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: also very daring and dangerous in some ways. In terms 427 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: of distance cover would be even more formidable. He wants 428 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: to take the boat, and he thinks if they sail 429 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: north into the Spanish, they're just going to get decimated. 430 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: So how can we as starving Castell's fight to Spanish. 431 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: So he wants to go south, travel southward, then through 432 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: the Strait of Magellan, which is a kind of winding 433 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: passage at the tip of South America or near the 434 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: South America treacher sies, and then sealed northward to Brazil. 435 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 2: Brazil was Portuguese, so it wasn't a war with England. 436 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 2: That whole trip, though was some three thouurs of miles. 437 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: It would have been one of the longest castaway voyages 438 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: ever carried out. 439 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: So we have these two factions with two very different 440 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: points of view. How is the tension manifested between them 441 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: before we really start to break apart. Are they sabotaging 442 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: each other? Or is this a war of words? At 443 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: this point if we take out the other group of 444 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: more orders. 445 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: It's simmering and it keeps kind of building. It's kind 446 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: of building over time. Then it might calm down a 447 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: little bit, but then it's gradually simmering more and more. 448 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 2: You know, at some point they become so antagonized that 449 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: they are sending messengers back and forth between each group. Wow, 450 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: and they're only separated. I mean, I don't know the 451 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: distance twenty yards maybe, but they know some of the 452 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: leaders will no longer speak. So there's something like diplomats 453 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: back and forth, and they're having kind of wars of words. 454 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: And then at one point there is increasing violence and 455 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: they begin to spiral into more violence. At one point, 456 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: the captain, who is kind of desperate to hold on 457 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: to his command and sees his power dwindling around him. 458 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 2: As Bulkley stirs the men with talk. He actually uses 459 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: afraid life and liberty, and he starts to have the 460 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: men signed petitions. Aliott salvaged a paper and pens, and 461 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: so it's kind of this political battle and a class 462 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: struggle playing out on this island. The island in many 463 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: ways became this laboratory to test the human condition under 464 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: extreme circumstances, and it slowly begins to reveal each person's nature, 465 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: both the good and the bad. And so you see 466 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: this kind of growing battle, and then at one point 467 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 2: Captain Cheap, fearing that one man was committing mutiny, bursts 468 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 2: out of his tent, takes his gun and places the 469 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: barrel right against the man's head, and without any questions 470 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 2: or any proceedings, he pulls the trigger and the man 471 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: had been unarmed. And for a moment this kind of 472 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 2: quiets things, but gradually it only increases the resentment of 473 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: the other faction, and so in their way, it ends 474 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: up dwindling and diminishing, like Captain's authority. 475 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: So there are people who are moving over to vocally side. 476 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 3: I'm assuming yes, his side is growing by the day. 477 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: How are we doing with nutrition and food at this point, 478 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: because we're a couple of months into it, right when 479 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: this tension is growing. 480 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they are starving more and more. A number of 481 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: them had died, I'm buried in the shallow graves on 482 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 2: the island. 483 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 3: You know. 484 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 2: They had tried to come up with all sorts of 485 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: ways to try to find food. They even built these 486 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: kind of little rafts that they would kind of try 487 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: to flow around the coast, but really with limited success. 488 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 2: So they're beginning to starve. It's increasing their paranoia and 489 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: no doubt, the starvation is increasing. You know, starvation has 490 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: not only physical effects as real psychological effects. I mean, 491 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: it's just a gnawing prefaceive force. So that's also augmenting 492 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: the tensions and the memo no doubt, also suffering from hypothermia. 493 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: You know, they only had scraps of clothing and it 494 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: was always wet and cold, so you know, it's a 495 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: real battle for their wits at this moment. 496 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: When is the next big event? 497 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: So well, what eventually happens is they begin to talk 498 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: about this taboo of mutiny, and they know that a 499 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: full blown mutiny the kind that they are contemplating could 500 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: be a hanging offense. And as they're discussing this, they 501 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: eventually do decide to cross that threshold. And early one morning, 502 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 2: a ragtag army of starving men, armed with whatever tools 503 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 2: and instruments they had, burst into Captain cheaps dwelling and 504 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: they seize him and they tie him up. 505 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: Do they have help from the marauders or is that 506 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: group staying out of it? 507 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: The Marauders are still kind of roaming. They do eventually 508 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: seek the alliance of one marauder who was a very 509 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: good carpenter who could help build a ship, but for 510 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: the most part, the marauders are still just pillaging, doing 511 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 2: their own crime separately. 512 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so what happens next? 513 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: They decide to die at the captain, and the thought is, well, 514 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: maybe will they bring the captain with them back to England. 515 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: They think they can use the shooting that Sheep had 516 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 2: done to justify arresting him. Cheap believes they're just using 517 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 2: that as a justification, and ultimately the faction led by 518 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: Bulkeley leaves the island and in the most stunning development, 519 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: they leave Captain Sheep behind. And it's a little bit 520 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: murky about exactly what transpired to do that, but she 521 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: was proud. According to Bulkeley, he did not want to 522 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: go back with them if he was going to remain 523 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: a prisoner. But there was also a spoken and even 524 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: spoken a desire that if Captain Sheep came back with them, 525 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: he would tell an alternative story. So by leaving Captain 526 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: Sheep and his followers behind on the island, the hope 527 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 2: is that there will be only one story to prevail 528 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: if they ever make it back to England and never 529 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: have to face the court martial. 530 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: But did they leave that other transport boat for them 531 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: to at least have a chance. 532 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: They did, but it was all kind of broken up. 533 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: There was very little expectation that they would ever get 534 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: off the island. You know. One of the things that 535 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: the other faction does throughout is they know that if 536 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: they ever get back to England, they're going to likely 537 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: be hauled before a military tribunal. So even while they're 538 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: on the island, they had salvaged some paper and quills, 539 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: and they are writing contemporaneous documents. Bolkals, keeping a diary, 540 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: They're signing petitions. They are essentially trying to create contemporaneous 541 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: evidence so that they can create an unassailable story of 542 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 2: the sea that will withstand the scrutiny of a public trial. 543 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: How many men are we talking about who are on 544 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: this boat with Bocley at this point. 545 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 2: Initially there are over eighty, but some would turn back 546 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: to rejoin the captain because when they realized the captain 547 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 2: has been abandoned, they just think that's a step too far. 548 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 2: So a small group does eventually turn back, but the 549 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: rest continue on. In this vessel. They are packed so 550 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: tightly together that they cannot even stand. They have virtually 551 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: no provisions and they begin this three thousand mile journey. 552 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: Now we know that weather plays such a big part 553 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: in these seafaring stories and the timing of it. Do 554 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: they encounter terrible weather I imagine over this time or 555 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: is it smooth sailing? 556 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: Oh no, it's not smooth. No, not smooth. The Straight 557 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: of Magellan is notorious for its sudden swalls. There was 558 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: a reason why shifts, the larger vessels back then avoided 559 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: that winding channel and chose to try to round the 560 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: Cape Horn with its violence. Sees, because the Straight of 561 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: Magellan presented its own challenges. You know, they didn't have 562 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: a map, but what they had was they didn't have 563 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: a reliable map or a detail. But what they had 564 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: was an earlier account of a seamen who had gone 565 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: through a British semen had gone through the Strait of Magellan. 566 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: Bulkeley is using this to navigate by, and it's really 567 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 2: one of the more extraordinary feats of navigation. He's kind 568 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: of reading this log book and then he would try 569 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: to eyeball things to match them up so that he 570 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: would know where they were. You know, at one point 571 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: they're going through the Strait of Magellan and all the 572 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: other crew you know, they're starving, they have to throw 573 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: people overboard, and some of the other castaways think he's 574 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: gone the wrong way, and so he agrees to turn 575 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: back and he'd actually been right, which only adds more 576 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: time to their voyage. But on these expeditions, they were 577 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: enormously challenged and they cause men sometimes to be abandoned. 578 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: Bulkeley was an extremely religious person, but it raised the question, 579 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: you know, is it a sin to want to live? 580 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 2: And how far would you go to one on them? 581 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: By the time that one boat reaches Brazil after some 582 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: three thousand miles, they're only twenty nine survived, including John 583 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: bulk Leave, the gunner. 584 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: What is the reaction when they reach Brazil? Was there 585 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: even news? How would even anyone know about this wreckage 586 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: to begin with? And that's a question, why have a 587 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: cover story when there's no witnesses? 588 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think the hope there was there was not 589 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: going to be witnesses. You know, they would have to 590 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: explain why they were there. Came back and there was 591 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: no captain with him, and what had happened to the captain. 592 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: So when they get to Brazil, though, they're initially gaded 593 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: with great curiosity, and they are healed and commended for 594 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: their ingenuity and the bravery, because this was nobody can 595 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: believe that anyone made this journey in their condition, in 596 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: this tiny, battered boat. And as you mentioned, it would 597 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: take a long time for news to eventually reach England. 598 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you're not talking about money. Months 599 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: and months and months, and it would take them a 600 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: long time to head back. But eventually several of this 601 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: group do return to England are able to share their story, 602 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: and at that point there's still no news from Captain 603 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: Sheep and the other faction, so there's only really one 604 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: story to prevail. 605 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: What is happening that we know of David Sheep and 606 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: his crew, and of course the marauders who are left 607 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: behind on the island. 608 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: Some of the marauders are kind of uncontrolled and some 609 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: even trying to make their miskiven die, but the bulk 610 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: of them, this kind of group of seceedars, do end 611 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: up joining up with Cheap and John Byron, the midshipman, 612 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: is present. He was not a marauder, but he had decided, 613 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: after a lot of soul searching and kind of uncertainty, 614 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: decided to stay with Captain Sheep that he thought it 615 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: was wrong to leave him to die, and so he 616 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: stays with Sheap and there are a couple others and 617 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: they eventually kind of fix their little crafts. They try 618 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: to get off the island, but they failed to They 619 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: can't get through the Gulf of Sorrows or the Golf 620 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: of Pain, and eventually they returned to the island and 621 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: again after there's Field attempts to leave it a month 622 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: later and they basically go back there to die. And 623 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: it's then that almost miraculously, a group of Native Patagonians 624 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: arrive in a couple of canoes and ultimately helped save 625 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: a few of the castaways, end up leading them on 626 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: a long journey to Chillaway Island, which is a Spanish settlement, 627 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: which is where she wanted to get to. But then 628 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: once they're there, they're actually taken prisoners, which is what 629 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: and they end up being in prison, so months and 630 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: months go on again after everything they've been through, they're 631 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: put in the condemned hole. You know, it would take 632 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: some of them close to six years since they had 633 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: left England to finally return. Byron, who had left England 634 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen, would return at the age 635 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: of twenty two and he was unrecognizable to his family. 636 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: Who comes back to England and what do they say 637 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: once they're there six years later, so you. 638 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: Know, Captain Sheep emerges and Captain Sheep is burning for 639 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 2: vengeance for having been abandoned. He believes he was abandoned 640 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: to die. He believes these others where he referred to 641 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: the other group as my mutineers, and he is ready 642 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: for a court martial on a showdown, and. 643 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm assuming the Crown is shocked that he's there and says, 644 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: we've heard news that this happened, but there's a band 645 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: of heroes who were in Brazil and what actually happened here. 646 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's someone to go on this court martial. 647 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: Bulkley and his group are certain they're going to be 648 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 2: hanged and they are praying before the trial. Meanwhile, they 649 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,959 Speaker 2: have charged Cheap with the most serious offense possible, which 650 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: was homicide. They're alleging that the captain and kills him, 651 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: which under naval regulations back then, was the one charge 652 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 2: that left no room for kind of wiggle room in 653 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 2: terms of the punishment was a hanging of fence. 654 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: Who has the most reliable narrative here. Do you think 655 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: it has to be cheap? You would think, right. 656 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: Well, Sheep had a certain standing and he had more 657 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 2: of the backing of the Admiralty and the officers and 658 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: the powers that be, and he is contending that he 659 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: was kind of undermined by many of them menerally on, 660 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: you know, and Bokeley comes from a different station. But 661 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: Bokeley has created perhaps the most persuasive story. He got 662 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: back to England first, he got his story on the 663 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: record first. He has a fair amount of public sympathy. 664 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: So it's quite a standoff. But what really happens is, 665 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: you know, these two sides are lobbing their stories back 666 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: and forth to see who would win, and they both 667 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 2: can make some valid points. But the British Empire and 668 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 2: the authorities are listening to these stories and they kind 669 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: of seem to, you know, based on their actions, they 670 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: seem to kind of come to the conclusion that, you 671 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,919 Speaker 2: know what, we like any of these stories. They don't 672 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: make us look very good. You know, they are undercutting 673 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: the central claim of the British Empire used to justify 674 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: as ruthless expansion and conquests of other peoples, which is 675 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: that their civilization was somehow superior to others. And yet 676 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 2: here on this island, our officers and crewe, these supposed 677 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: apostles of Western civilization, the vanguard of the Empire, have 678 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 2: behaved more like brutes than like gentlemen. And so they 679 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 2: suddenly have an interest in maybe telling a third version 680 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 2: and an alternative history and their own mythic tale to see. 681 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: So this is a story not only about the way 682 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: we tell stories to serve our self interest, but it's 683 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 2: also the way nations that especially empires, tell stories to 684 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: serve their self interests and to preserve their powers. 685 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: So how is the Crown reframing the narrative of the 686 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: Wager at this point when you're looking at all these 687 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: people who probably technically should be hanged. 688 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So they come into the court martial, and to 689 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: their surprise and pleasant surprise for their point of view, 690 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 2: none of the defendants are actually asked about it, any 691 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: of the alleged crimes on the island. Nothing. Instead, they're 692 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: simply the court martial simply focuses on what it caused 693 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: the wreck of the Wager, you know, before they even 694 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: got to the island. And it would be the equivalent 695 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 2: of stopping a car in which the officers, you know, 696 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: the police find a dead body in the trunk, but 697 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 2: they only asked the driver about a bus to tailight. 698 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: And in the end they let everybody go. They just 699 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: let everybody go free. And there are no other proceedings, 700 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: in no other trials. And so you know this because 701 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 2: of the kind of fear of what this story said, 702 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 2: because these stories did not make the Empire look good, 703 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 2: because it showed the kind of really many ways disastrous 704 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: natures of the war and what it transpired during the 705 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 2: war and what had become a bloody stalemate. This became 706 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 2: as one British naval story and called it the Mutiny 707 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 2: that never was, And instead the British Navy seizes on 708 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 2: another story, which is that one of the ships from 709 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: the squadron, led by Commodore George Anson, he was down 710 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: to one ship from this big expedition that had started 711 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: out with nearly two thousand men and five warships. He's 712 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 2: down a one warship, a ragtag group. He managed to 713 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: get around the Horn and into the Pacific, and through 714 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: a great deal of skill and talent on his part, 715 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: he was in many ways a remarkable commander. He ends 716 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 2: up seizing the galleon and capturing this treasure. He captures 717 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 2: the prize of all the oceans. And that is the 718 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: story that the authorities decide to tell and trumpet and share, 719 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 2: leaving out and you know, or overlooking or underplaying all 720 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: these disasters that had taken place, and that's kind of 721 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 2: the mythic tale that gets passed down. 722 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: And the press doesn't get a hold of it, or 723 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: is it just totally squashed. 724 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 2: You know, the press initially seizes on the wager affair 725 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: because it's such a scandalous truth and what it says, 726 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 2: but eventually the story of ants and captioning the galleon 727 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 2: is the one that will be celebrated in stories. When 728 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: they returned to England, they were paraded through the streets 729 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: where their wagons filled with treasure. At that point at 730 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 2: the war, thousands and thousands of people had died both, 731 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 2: you know, throughout different expeditions. It kind of become a 732 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 2: bloody steelmate and so there was such a longing for 733 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 2: a victory. So here at last was news of a victory. 734 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: It wasn't going to change the course of the war, 735 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 2: nor was the treasure seized. It was only a fraction 736 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 2: of what had been squandered and wasted on this work. 737 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: Yet it gave them a story. It gave the news 738 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 2: of a victory. That is the story that will we 739 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 2: celebrated in sea ballance and poems and will eventually overshadow 740 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: the disastrous nature of this expedition, overlooking the fact that 741 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: of nearly two thousand people gone, more than thirteen hundred 742 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 2: of perish this mission. 743 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: Well, just to tie a little not on this story, 744 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: what happens with Bokeley and Cheap do they just sort 745 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: of ride off separately into the sunset and live quiet 746 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: lives After this is all done, Fat. 747 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: And Cheap, still burning with his obsessive dreams of glory, 748 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: goes back to sea, and it shows, you know, in 749 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 2: a different world, in a different place, fate can be 750 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: very cruel and in a different way. On a different ship, 751 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: on a different mission, he might have had more success. 752 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 2: And he goes off on a ship and he helps 753 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: capture actually a Spanish ship that has a large, you know, 754 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 2: fairly large prize. And then he retires afterwards from ill health. 755 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 2: But he's always stained, He's always remembered, if he's remembered 756 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 2: at all, by the stain of what had happened on 757 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 2: the island and John Bulkeley with somebody who kind of 758 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 2: burst into history with almost no past. You know, we 759 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 2: don't have records of you know, much about him before this. 760 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 2: He kind of bursts into history and then later he 761 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 2: leaves and he goes to we know he went to Philadelphia, 762 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 2: into the colonies, into that hotbed feature hopbed of rebellion, 763 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 2: and there eventually he disappears from history. 764 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 765 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 766 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 767 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our 768 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by 769 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. 770 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. 771 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 772 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 773 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 774 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more, Wicked, email us at 775 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked Dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 776 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for wicked words