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Speaker 1: Well, hey, everybody, you have found me and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Onward with Rosie o'donald. I don't like to talk about

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Speaker 1: myself in the third person like that. Isn't that weird,

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Speaker 1: Rosie o'donald. It's me. I can't just say onward with me?

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Speaker 1: Could I? Okay? It's onward with me. Today we have

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Speaker 1: an amazing guest, Alexander Vidman. And who is Alexander Vindman?

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Speaker 1: Most of you know, but I'm going to give you

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Speaker 1: a brief intro. Alexander Vidman was Director of European Affairs

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Speaker 1: at the National Security Council and was appointed to his

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Speaker 1: post at the Trump White House in twenty eighteen and

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Speaker 1: was asked to stay for two years. His tasks included developing, coordinating,

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Speaker 1: executing plans and policies to manage the full range of diplomatic, informational, military,

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Speaker 1: and economic national security for the countries and his portfolio,

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Speaker 1: which included the Ukraine and Russia. Vinman had listened to

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Speaker 1: the July twenty fifth, twenty nineteen call between Trump and Zelensky.

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Speaker 1: He testified in October that he raised concerns twice that

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Speaker 1: Trump and his European Union Ambassador Gordon Sandland pushed Ukraine

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Speaker 1: leaders to investigate presidential candidate Joe Biden and his son

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Speaker 1: Hunter Biden. He told the House investigators that he raised

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Speaker 1: his concerns after he listened with other aids to Trump's

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Speaker 1: July twenty fifth call and concluded it was improper quote

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Speaker 1: to demand that a foreign government investigate a US citizen

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Speaker 1: that is Alexander Vinman, and he is a national hero.

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Speaker 1: He's an American hero, and his life is fascinating. Please

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Speaker 1: relax and listen to Alexander Finman. It is so nice

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Speaker 1: to meet you. Can I call you, alex Please call

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Speaker 1: me alex.

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Speaker 2: I insist.

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Speaker 1: I think that you are an incredible human being. And

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Speaker 1: I was so moved by your courage and candor during

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Speaker 1: this whole entire incident and this whole administration, and the

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Speaker 1: courage that it took for you to do what you

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Speaker 1: did so on behalf of everyone I know. I just

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Speaker 1: want to say thank you, because it's it's you're a

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Speaker 1: remarkable guy. And I don't know if you get that enough.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if people stop you on the street

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Speaker 1: and tell you that. But if I saw you in

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Speaker 1: the street, I would hug you, probably with tears in

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Speaker 1: my eyes and say thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, that's very kind. First, let me say I'm

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Speaker 3: going to challenge you for the funniest person on the program.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good?

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Speaker 3: And if you say that, if you would, you know,

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Speaker 3: you speak to my wife, you might not think I'm as.

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Speaker 2: Much of a hero.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know that because I read her texts.

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Speaker 1: I read what she says, you know about you and

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Speaker 1: your family, and she's been so supportive and so right there.

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Speaker 1: You're such a team, you're united, you have a daughter

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Speaker 1: like I don't know. I admire that about you as well.

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Speaker 1: She and your daughter have have put up with so

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Speaker 1: much as a result of this.

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Speaker 2: Right, they've been great, They have been great.

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to get to your point about how

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Speaker 3: what kind of reception I tend to get. Occasionally I

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Speaker 3: get what I perceived to be like sideways glances like

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Speaker 3: no it's that Vinmin guy or is like that. But

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Speaker 3: in general, you know, just about every single interaction I've had,

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Speaker 3: people have come up to me and been.

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Speaker 2: Very supportive, which I'm grateful for.

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Speaker 3: It is not the way you might see on social

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Speaker 3: media with a kind of incessant on ending attacks, which

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Speaker 3: happens you know quite often on social media that's easy,

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Speaker 3: there's a black button there. But in general, when I

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Speaker 3: see people, they've been very, very kind, and I feel

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Speaker 3: a wealth of support from the American public at large,

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Speaker 3: and I'm grateful for that. It just it speaks more

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Speaker 3: to the soul of the American people that, you know

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Speaker 3: that despite what they've been propagandized to believe, I still

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Speaker 3: people have been kind.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I think that's because more people believe in

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Speaker 1: you and and the truth and what you stand for

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Speaker 1: than believe in the right wing party that's been taken

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Speaker 1: over by Trump.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but there are too many of those folks. Of course,

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Speaker 3: as we both know, probably amounts to tens of millions

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Speaker 3: of psychopaths, cult followers that are increasingly being driven to violence.

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Speaker 3: It's a small minority, you know. Where a country of

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Speaker 3: three hundred and thirty million people, it might amount to

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Speaker 3: one percent of the population. Percent of the population, which

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Speaker 3: in how you get numbers, could mean what thirty million people.

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Speaker 3: That's huge, but as a percentage of our overall American population,

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Speaker 3: it's really not that much. I think, by and large,

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Speaker 3: we are a kind hearted lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said when you were testifying, which was so

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Speaker 1: beautiful that your father was worried that you might be

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Speaker 1: killed and you said, no, this is America, and hear

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Speaker 1: right matters. Which is the title of your wonderful book.

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Speaker 1: And thank you for sending me a copy that you inscribed,

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Speaker 1: which I have kept in a place of honor in

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Speaker 1: my house. But your father, from your family has escaped

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Speaker 1: a lot of crises, rightft your family left Russia, and

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Speaker 1: then your family escaped the Nazis, and your mom died

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Speaker 1: when you were quite young, you were three years old,

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Speaker 1: and you moved to the United States, and life here

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Speaker 1: was not as easy as one might expect for you know,

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Speaker 1: little boys, did you find that or.

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Speaker 2: I think large a lot of the a lot of

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Speaker 2: that was true.

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Speaker 3: And I think it was in my family DNA to

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Speaker 3: overcome a hardship and be resilient. But I'll tell you that,

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Speaker 3: you know, we didn't know that. We didn't have a

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Speaker 3: lot when we were we were when we were little

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Speaker 3: boys that arrived to the United States, you know, at

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Speaker 3: four years old, yes, in hindsight, you know, finding a

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Speaker 3: usable mattress on the street and using that as a

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Speaker 3: bed because we were you know, we came here age refugees.

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Speaker 3: My dad had seven hundred and fifty dollars in his

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Speaker 3: bucket the old furniture for the six first six months

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Speaker 3: here before being able to acquire a sufficient amount of

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Speaker 3: English to pass a civil service examine and become a

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Speaker 3: civil servant uh in engineer for the New York City

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Speaker 3: Department of Environmental Environmental Protection.

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Speaker 2: But we didn't know.

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Speaker 3: We didn't have a lot, you know. We we were happy,

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Speaker 3: go lucky kids, you know, uh.

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Speaker 2: Doing fine.

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Speaker 3: And I think in I guess to a certain extent,

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Speaker 3: what we grew up on is understanding that hard work

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Speaker 3: does pay off. By watching the example of our father,

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Speaker 3: who had to restart his life at the age of

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Speaker 3: forty seven.

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Speaker 2: Worked really long hours.

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Speaker 3: We are married my stepmother, they both worked really hard

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Speaker 3: to provide for us.

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Speaker 2: And I think those are the kinds of.

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Speaker 3: The kinds of skills we developed and patterns we looked

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Speaker 3: to model and emulate.

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Speaker 1: What did your mom die of? If you don't mind

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Speaker 1: me asking.

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Speaker 3: So we the best we can figure out is some

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Speaker 3: sort of lymph cancer, maybe you know, a lymphoma. But

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Speaker 3: the reason that we were probably even as where as

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Speaker 3: we are, as my dad, who understood what she was

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Speaker 3: suffering from read an article about the Asha Varan that

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Speaker 3: had come to the US for treatment for the same

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Speaker 3: kind of cancer and that had extended his life for

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Speaker 3: you know, more than half a decade or so, and

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Speaker 3: he was looking to One of the reasons he was

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Speaker 3: looking to come to the US is to seek that

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Speaker 3: kind of medical care and save.

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Speaker 2: His wife's, our mother's life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you were too young to remember her really.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure in stories maybe that you remember her from

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Speaker 1: from family lore, but in your own memory, you don't

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Speaker 1: carry any memory of her really, right.

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Speaker 3: We don't, But we make it a kind of a

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Speaker 3: pilgrimage when we whenever I'm in Ukraine, whenever my brothers

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Speaker 3: are in Ukraine and I'm there for work, trying to

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Speaker 3: be helpful with this war while I was in government

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Speaker 3: as a policymaker, I'd make it a point to take

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Speaker 3: a pilgrimage to her gravesite and.

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Speaker 2: You know, make sure everything was in order.

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Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, that's a hard one. My mom

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Speaker 1: died as well when I was ten, and there were

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Speaker 1: five children. But I do have memories, and my youngest

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Speaker 1: brother was just about five, and he doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: very many at all, you know, And I always wished

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Speaker 1: I could give him the few that I that I have,

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Speaker 1: but even at ten, I don't have a lot of memories.

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Speaker 1: I think the shock of it, you know, doesn't allow

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Speaker 1: you to store as many things when you're a young

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Speaker 1: kid like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for us it's a little bit more difficult.

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Speaker 3: We're closer with our stepmother, she raised us from when

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Speaker 3: we were about seven years old, but we have a

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Speaker 3: very special relationship with our dad. He was a sole

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Speaker 3: caregiver for a long time. You know, again, quite an

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Speaker 3: amazing individual, a model for us, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: think the fact is that we're closer with him just

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Speaker 3: by by nature of that relationship. So it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit of discovery for me, kind of watching the interaction

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Speaker 3: between my daughter and my wife Rachel and how close

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Speaker 3: they really are. It's something I guess we didn't quite

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Speaker 3: get a chance to experience in the same kind of way.

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Speaker 3: I imagine you Rosie also had a similar kind of experience.

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Speaker 1: Grown up, Yes, totally, And when my daughters started to

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Speaker 1: do the things that pre teenage girls start to do,

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Speaker 1: I was shocked because you know, I didn't have that

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Speaker 1: time period to push away from my mom and identify

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Speaker 1: myself as an individual person. You have to go through

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Speaker 1: this as a human. But when my kids did it,

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Speaker 1: I was bereft, you know, I thought, what are they

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Speaker 1: doing to me? Not realizing that because I hadn't seen

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Speaker 1: it happen as a kid. You know, we'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with Alexander Vinman after this. Do you think your

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Speaker 1: father provided you with the moral compass that allowed you

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Speaker 1: to become I'm going to say, a whistleblower, And though

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Speaker 1: you don't like that word, I read.

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Speaker 3: So I think I think it's maybe more a little

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Speaker 3: bit more basic, and it's something I try to instill

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Speaker 3: my daughter. Also, he did not tolerate lies, so I

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Speaker 3: think those that would be dealt with kind of mercilessly.

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Speaker 3: He prided himself on, you know, kind of your word

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Speaker 3: is your bond and integrity, and it's something that I

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Speaker 3: think he instilled in us. So to me, you know what, reporting,

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Speaker 3: I think there was what I try to do with

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Speaker 3: the books. I try to kind of explain all of

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Speaker 3: the of the elements of my background that resulted in

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Speaker 3: me taking what some people, you know, believe is courageous.

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Speaker 3: For me, seemed like a kind of a basic and

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Speaker 3: most instinctual response.

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Speaker 1: To So you didn't wrestle with yourself with the concept.

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Speaker 1: You heard it. You knew that it was unconstitutional and

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Speaker 1: immoral and criminal in many ways. So you said, did

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Speaker 1: he basically try to hold him up for money in

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Speaker 1: order to President Trump, in order to get bad information

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Speaker 1: on Biden, who he was terribly afraid of.

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Speaker 3: It was, he was easy. I did not struggle struggle

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Speaker 3: with that at all. Frankly, it was the right thing

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Speaker 3: to do. I was doing it in the in the

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Speaker 3: right way and in the proper reporting channels. There are

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Speaker 3: are there's recourse. I was in a very lofty position

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Speaker 3: as a director for European Affairs.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a serious position.

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Speaker 3: You're convening the deputy assistants, UH secretaries across all the

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Speaker 3: departments today and she's it's the equivalent of an army

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Speaker 3: three star general, so way above my pay grade.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And I had a lot of responsibilities, and I wasn't

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Speaker 3: going to shirk my responsibilities, you know, for for the

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Speaker 3: purposes of preserving my own career. I you know, I

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Speaker 3: knew what the right thing to do was, and I

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Speaker 3: did there. I did this all in a in a

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Speaker 3: proper channel, and got the process going to result in impeachment.

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Speaker 3: What's maybe a little bit different than all the whistleblowers

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Speaker 3: is that oftentimes they're kind of really maybe helpless within

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Speaker 3: their institutions and have to go outside, let's say, to news,

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Speaker 3: to reporting or some other means to seek some sort of.

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Speaker 2: A redress. In my case, I didn't have to do that.

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Speaker 3: I was charged with running policy for Russia, Ukraine, parts

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Speaker 3: of Europe. And what I could do is instead I

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Speaker 3: could bring the entire community of professionals together and get

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Speaker 3: all that momentum forward to try to put us back

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Speaker 3: right on track, which is what I did when I

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Speaker 3: was in my position. At the same time, Congress became

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Speaker 3: aware of my report and they had their oversight responsibilities,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I guess to a certain extent, I

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Speaker 3: used the tools in my toolbox to try to continue

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Speaker 3: to try to do the right thing, regardless of external pressure.

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Speaker 1: Did you speak to your twin brother before you did it,

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Speaker 1: because in some way did you realize that you were

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Speaker 1: risking his career in some ways? Or who would ever

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Speaker 1: think that the government would react in the way that

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Speaker 1: it did to both you and your brother and your family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, to me, he was he was my

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Speaker 3: he we were in a very very unique situation. We

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Speaker 3: were both assigned to the National Security Council, commonly kind

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Speaker 3: of joking around referred to as the Vitmin twins, as

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Speaker 3: the twins on the NSE or something like that. And

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Speaker 3: I talked to him about, you know, just about everything

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Speaker 3: he had. He was he as an attorney and the

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Speaker 3: ethics official there had all of the right clearances. His

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Speaker 3: job was to provide legal counsel for kind of ethics

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Speaker 3: issues for me, you know, I mean, I didn't have

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Speaker 3: to guess about where he could be on this issue either.

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Speaker 2: He's my twin brothers. We're very close sight.

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Speaker 3: I know what his views are, so I didn't really

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Speaker 3: even have to deliberate that much.

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Speaker 2: I think if I knew that he would be the.

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Speaker 3: Target of retaliation, it would be I'd be hard pressed

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Speaker 3: to bring him into to be the you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of retaliated against it. But at the same time, he

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Speaker 3: probably wouldn't let me get away with it, because if

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Speaker 3: if he knew I kept him I try to keep

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Speaker 3: him safe, he'd be very angry or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Right, didn't share the burden with him.

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Speaker 1: How many people were on that phone call that you

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Speaker 1: were on that you felt morally obligated to report. How

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Speaker 1: many do you know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so in the room there were were probably about

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Speaker 3: a half a dozen officials. It turned out that the

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Speaker 3: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo had was also on the

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Speaker 3: conference line, on the party line, as well as Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: maybe by himself or with a kind of a probably

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Speaker 3: with its chief of staff taking it from his residence.

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Speaker 3: So maybe you know, all total less than a dozen people.

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Speaker 1: And you were the only one who reported it.

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Speaker 3: I think that's true. It turns out out that maybe

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Speaker 3: my boss, who was a political appointee, may have also

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Speaker 3: once I informed him of the fact that I was

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Speaker 3: I reported. I think he did the same thing, but

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Speaker 3: mainly not to report wrongdoing, mainly mainly.

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Speaker 2: As a cya to kind of.

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Speaker 3: Exactly not that he was had any you know, moral

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Speaker 3: or ethical, uh concerns about it, just mainly mainly as

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Speaker 3: a as a as a coverer asked type of thing.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I guess I was probably the only one

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Speaker 3: on that one. But that doesn't necessarily surprise me. You

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Speaker 3: had what you had on that phone called our political operatives,

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Speaker 3: folks that you owed their their careers to Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: They were not going to go go up against them

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Speaker 3: or challenge him. And then you had some some professionals

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Speaker 3: coming out of departments and agencies, not many, maybe one

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Speaker 3: or two of those folks, but their their purview was

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Speaker 3: not like mine, not responsible for all the policy to

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Speaker 3: do with Ukraine or Russia. They had, let's say, you know,

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Speaker 3: somebody from the press team was there was to cover

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Speaker 3: that equity. They didn't under necessarily understand all the issues

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Speaker 3: or that Trump was putting the squeeze on, you know,

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Speaker 3: or they followed it was my responsibility to you because

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Speaker 3: I was charged with that office.

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Speaker 1: He's a very you know, vindictive person, and not only

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Speaker 1: to you, but to many people. He was in business

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Speaker 1: with who for many years. You know, did you you

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Speaker 1: grew up in New York, right?

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Speaker 2: I did?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Because if you grew up in New York,

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Speaker 1: I always tell everyone you were fully aware of who

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Speaker 1: he was as a person, because we always saw the

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Speaker 1: New York Post and everyone ridiculing him about what a

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Speaker 1: joke of a person he was. And so to New Yorkers,

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Speaker 1: I think it was a shock that he could become president,

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Speaker 1: that he could hold any position of authority, because we

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Speaker 1: all viewed him as like a bad used car salesman,

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Speaker 1: you know, selling stakes and vodka and ties.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I always say to people that you should be barred

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Speaker 3: from general election if you can't win your own constituency.

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Speaker 1: I think that's true.

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Speaker 3: I mean, those are the people that know you bust.

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Speaker 3: If you can't win in like New York City, New

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Speaker 3: York State, you have no business you know, running for office.

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Speaker 3: That would have been too bout our founding fathers that

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Speaker 3: thought of that in.

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Speaker 1: The Yeah, that's a good that's a good thing to

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Speaker 1: put in there. I could tell you that because the

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Speaker 1: people of New York have no time for him.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Whatsoever? Can I ask you when you did that speech,

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Speaker 1: when you testified, how did you feel that night? Did

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Speaker 1: you feel like you were walking on air or did

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Speaker 1: you feel like, oh no, something's going to happen, Like

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Speaker 1: what was your state of mind after you were done?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: So, I mean I knew pretty much relatively quickly that

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Speaker 3: I was going to have issues with regards to retaliation,

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Speaker 3: you know, within within the first couple of days, I

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Speaker 3: knew that I was already out on the outs with

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Speaker 3: the White House. I still had my position. I could

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Speaker 3: still do good work, but in terms of the political leadership,

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Speaker 3: the folks above me, They start to marginalize me, pulled

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Speaker 3: me off of you know, various trips, engagements with presidents

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Speaker 3: of Linsky, Mike Pence, Donald Trump. So I knew that

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Speaker 3: I was as I was in hot water. I also

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Speaker 3: kind of got the sense they couldn't really get rid

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Speaker 3: of me until after things were shuttled out with the

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Speaker 3: regards to the impeachment and then the Senate trial. So

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Speaker 3: I just did the best I could for as long

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Speaker 3: as I could. And of course, as we all know,

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Speaker 3: just you know, two days after the end of this

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Speaker 3: the Senate trial, I was fired from the White House.

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Speaker 3: And what are you expecting that, Alex was I was

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Speaker 3: expecting that.

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Speaker 2: I was expecting that it was.

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Speaker 3: Going to happen the day after, actually, so I was

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Speaker 3: a little surprised that it took two days. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I knew I was going to be the subject of

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Speaker 3: retaliation and I was going to lose my kind of

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Speaker 3: longstop position in the White House where where I thought

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Speaker 3: I could do a lot of work, but I thought

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Speaker 3: I still had a military career. I did not realize that,

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Speaker 3: you know, basically, the attacks were going to scare off

364
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 3: the military leadership and you know, caused me to become

365
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 3: radioactive and marginalized there when I was when I was

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Speaker 3: in really good standing, and you know, I had a

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Speaker 3: really quite fast ascent within my within my career field

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Speaker 3: as a foreign area officer, a diplomat, I was selected

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Speaker 3: for promotion to colonel. I didn't think all those things

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Speaker 3: were going to come to to a crashing end. But

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Speaker 3: you know, I guess the question is do I have

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Speaker 3: any any regrets. I don't have any regrets about about

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Speaker 3: doing what I did. I think it was the right

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Speaker 3: thing to do. I think when I was faced with

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Speaker 3: the kind of a crisis moment and living.

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Speaker 2: Up to my oath to support.

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Speaker 3: And defend the Constitution against all on ma'se farm domestic,

378
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Speaker 3: I lived up to my obligations. And sometimes you, I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is life. This is not you know, TV or

380
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Speaker 3: a movie. You have to deal with the consequences. And

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Speaker 3: the consequences for me were the end of a military

382
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Speaker 3: career that I'd worked really hard for for decades.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, twenty eight years, right, you were in the

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Speaker 1: military twenty two years. Twenty two years, Yeah, not that old,

385
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Speaker 1: but I am.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But you know, at the same time, you know,

387
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 3: there's there's something, like I said, there are certain aspects

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Speaker 3: that are in my family's DNA resilience.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really when it came clear to.

390
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Speaker 3: Me that I was not going to be able to

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Speaker 3: have the same career after Trump retaliation.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear from a lot of people after you

393
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Speaker 1: I know, people supported you on TikTok and Twitter, but

394
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: did people reach out and say, hey, I think that

395
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Speaker 1: you're amazing and congratulations.

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Speaker 3: I did so within the military, which is frankly one

397
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Speaker 3: of the more important, you know, constituencies for me. I

398
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Speaker 3: felt a lot of support from from my peers, colonels

399
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 3: and below, but crickets from the seniors, you know, kind

400
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 3: of you know, the slightly more political echelon, which was

401
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 3: which is pretty frustrating. I was trying to saw us

402
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 3: out if I still had a military career, and all

403
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 3: the signals were no. So you know, that's one of

404
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 3: the reasons I moved on. But I've since got my

405
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 3: doctorate from JOHNS. Hopkins and I run a think tank

406
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 3: and write a lot about and speak a lot about,

407
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 3: you know, geopolitics, so pretty rewarding. But from the general public,

408
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 3: I did, I mean, like I said, in face to

409
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Speaker 3: face interactions is quite positive. My synagogue at one point

410
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 3: indicated that I was.

411
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Speaker 2: Open to receiving mail, and there were it was a flood.

412
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Speaker 3: There were thousands of pieces of mail that I made

413
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,479
Speaker 3: it a point to read every single one of them. Uh,

414
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: and some just wonderful stories were counting you know, immigrant backgrounds,

415
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: connections that people drew between their family that came you know,

416
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Speaker 3: in the time of the main Flower to present day,

417
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 3: as well as recent immigrants and you know, Holocaust survivors

418
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Speaker 3: and stuff like that. So it was it was I

419
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Speaker 3: guess I'm quite fortunate that I was able to draw

420
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 3: that kind of support. I think again, other whistle blowers

421
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 3: don't don't have that there there. They become priors within

422
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 3: their you know, within their work environments, maybe within their

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00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: communities and so forth, and don't get the benefit of

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Speaker 3: that kind of public support.

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Speaker 1: And I did, Yeah, that's wonderful. How come you shun

426
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Speaker 1: the word whistle blower because I saw that in a

427
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Speaker 1: couple of interviews I read, I.

428
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Speaker 3: Because I guess a couple of different things. The first

429
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Speaker 3: one is because I think whistle blowers sometimes have to

430
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Speaker 3: deal with even more challenging circumstances than I did. They

431
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Speaker 3: didn't have the ability to reach out and reach receive support.

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Speaker 2: They have to deal with.

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Speaker 3: The trauma of being a whistleblower, losing their job, losing

434
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Speaker 3: their livelihood, potentially family, and not being able to recover. Frankly,

435
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Speaker 3: I guess in part is do you feel like I

436
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Speaker 3: was able to recover, you know, knock down but got

437
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Speaker 3: back up, continue to do things that thought were important

438
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Speaker 3: to me. So I think that's one of the reasons

439
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 3: that I kind of I feel like it's maybe a

440
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: bit of a disservice to the term whistleblower.

441
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: The other one is, well, well, your dad was worried

442
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: about you losing your life.

443
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 3: I think that's true. I think from his context it

444
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: made huge sense. If I had done something like this

445
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: in Russia, they.

446
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: Would have murdered me. You know, progosions plane.

447
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: Was knocked down, and that's the way they deal with,

448
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 3: you know, people that are seen as opponents.

449
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: But we live in a different society.

450
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 3: We live in a society governed by the rule of law,

451
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 3: you know, by art Western democratic liberal values, even if

452
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: we fall short of them. Sometimes that's kind of still

453
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 3: in our DNA always trying to strive for that more

454
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 3: perfect union, so I didn't have to feel for fear

455
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 3: in the same way. I mean, yes, I was concerned

456
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: about losing a job and providing for my family, but

457
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 3: I also recognized that unlike my dad who came here

458
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: at forty seven, I was younger. I didn't have three

459
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 3: I had a daughter and a wife. I didn't have

460
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: three boys and no spouse like he did. I spoke English,

461
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 3: I had my Ivy League degrees. I mean, I could

462
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 3: land on you know, I could land on my feet.

463
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: So I guess from that standpoint again, you know, I

464
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 3: I think I was pretty darn I've done pretty well

465
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 3: in spite of these challenges, in spite of being taken off,

466
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: you know, the path I had set for myself.

467
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: But it doesn't change. Actually, actually, one aspect of it

468
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: is that the.

469
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: Trump regime has never really been held to account until

470
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: we're quite recently.

471
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: Yes, for all of.

472
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: Their various priming, I think that right now. The January

473
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 3: sixth insurrection was the culmination of the President's efforts to

474
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: try to steal the.

475
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty election. It started with my report.

476
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 3: It started with with what I was reporting, which was

477
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: the President was trying to tip the scales in his

478
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 3: favor by extorting an investigation against then President Biden. As

479
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: President Biden to steal that election. It culminated in an insurrection.

480
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: He only now after many years because he'd been finally

481
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 3: held accountable for his criminal activities. Mark Meadows as chief

482
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 3: of staff directly responsible in retaliation against me finally being

483
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 3: held accountable. So in a lot of ways, frankly, I

484
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: feel validated, validated, and vindicated. And when these folks are

485
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: wearing there aren't jumpsuits and paying for their crimes, I

486
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: think that this episode will be, you know, kind of

487
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 3: closed for me.

488
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Since the first indictments were

489
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: handed down, I have felt a relief and a renewed

490
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: faith in the United States. I was really very disappointed

491
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: in the way and the pace and the timing of

492
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: him finally being called into account for what he did.

493
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: Do you think that the phone call that you reported

494
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: on the Zelenski trying to extort him gave putin the

495
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: idea that it was okay to go and take over Ukraine.

496
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: I think the entire episode with the Ukraine scandal set

497
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 3: the conditions and did plant the seed for Putin to

498
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 3: believe that he could get away with it under Trump

499
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: or under a American political establishment in which Trump had

500
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: huge sway over the entirety of the Republican establishment. I

501
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 3: think the way, I you know, the clarity here is

502
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: that for Putin, the conclusion was that US national security

503
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: could be sacrificed to the political aims of an individual

504
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: Trump trying to steal an election was more important. His

505
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: own political success was more important than the US national security.

506
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: And then continuing on through the way Trump made Ukraine

507
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: radioactive to the US establishment, it became dangerous for high

508
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 3: level engagement between Ukraine and US policy makers, so that

509
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 3: undercut US support for Ukraine, made Ukraine look more vulnerable,

510
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: It undercut the kind of aid Ukraine could get, including

511
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: through a military aid, and ultimately it actually carried through,

512
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: frankly into at the beginning of the Biden administration. President

513
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: Biden didn't meet with Zelensky until the summer of twenty

514
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 3: twenty one, and that could have been time well spent

515
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: hardening Ukraine, sending the message that Ukraine was off limits.

516
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: What probably ultimately, you know, one of the tipping points

517
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: for Putin must have been even as hundreds of thousands

518
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: of troops, almost two hundred thousand troops were being placed

519
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: on Ukraine's borders.

520
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: You still had Donald Trump cheerleading for Putin, right.

521
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable to think about, you know it is.

522
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: But what the message for Putin is this, This is

523
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: potentially one of the front runners for twenty twenty four,

524
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: This is the guy that runs the Republican Party, and

525
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: that a war against Ukraine would come with little no consequences,

526
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: that the Republican establishment was not going.

527
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: To hold Putin accountable for this war.

528
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: That's the message that Trump and all his acolytes were

529
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: sending to Putin. That's why Putin felt so comfortable in

530
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: launching this war. That and you know, his misplaced chauvinism

531
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: about Russian power versus who the Ukrainians were. That's just

532
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: another historical feature of Russia and it's kind of imperialism

533
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: and domination of the region.

534
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: But do you happen to know the death toll in

535
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: the Ukraine for Ukraine citizens and since its.

536
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: Started, it's so there.

537
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: The official numbers are frankly in the low tens of thousands.

538
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,719
Speaker 3: Sounds like, you know, that is an absurd number, but

539
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: it's that's the official death till. The estimates are significantly

540
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: higher for places that the Russians are occupying, like Mariopol alone.

541
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: Expectations are that there were tens of thousands of people

542
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 3: killed there in Russia's attack on the city and population.

543
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: The toll for the Ukrainian military maybe you know, as

544
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: high as seventy eighty maybe one hundred thousand, which is

545
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: a catastrophic number. We're talking about a country with a

546
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: pre war population of about forty three million, and one

547
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: hundred thousand of their best and brightest have been killed

548
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 3: fighting to defend the country. Is not you know, the

549
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: Russians have been throwing their ash and trash, a lot

550
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: of their ash trash there prisoners, tens of thousands of

551
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: prisoners that were dragged into their ranks to fight against Ukraine.

552
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: But for Ukraine, it's a cross cutting of society. Artists, actors, musicians,

553
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: scientists have all signed up to do their patrioch duty

554
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: and defend their country, deferend their homes, defend their families,

555
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: and you know, they've taken punishing losses and it kind

556
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: of makes you sick if you think about, you.

557
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: Know what this means for the future.

558
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: Of society, and this war is not likely to end

559
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: anytime soon. Unfortunately. I think it's likely to last through.

560
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: There's a small chance that we'll get into some negotiations

561
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: towards the end of this year, but it's likely it

562
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: last twenty twenty four, in part because of the fact

563
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: that Putin.

564
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: They want to see if Trump wins, right, Yeah.

565
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 3: Putin may think that he could snatch victory from the

566
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: jaws of defeat in a favorable US election.

567
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Alexander Vinman after this, m.

568
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: M M.

569
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Many people have said that Trump is a Russian asset,

570
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: but I think he's too dumb to be that. But

571
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: he might be one, unknowingly, like just because he's not

572
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: very intelligent and he doesn't understand, uh, kind of the

573
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: inner workings of politics.

574
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: He's easily manipulated. He is what's called called a unwitting

575
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: asset and a useful idiot. That's the that's the you know,

576
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: these are these are actually the technical terms that I uh,

577
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 3: let's say, you know, counterintelligence or intelligence would use to

578
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 3: describe him if they were going to assess him. The

579
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: reason is that he's probably not aware of the fact

580
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: that he's being run as an asset, that Putin was

581
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 3: pandering to him, pandering to his narcissism and his vanity.

582
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: And when Putin would you know, talk him up, saying

583
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: good job, Donald, keep it up, keep up the good work,

584
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: and knowing that Trump is a fanboys over Putin, was

585
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: the easy way to manipulate him. And the fact that

586
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 3: you know it, really it became quite apparent on my

587
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: first day and on the National Security Council when Trump

588
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 3: was having his press conference with Putin and Helsinki that

589
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: he was easily manipulated. Trump was easily manipulated into buying

590
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: Putin's lies over the assessment of the intelligence community.

591
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: So it reminded me of a kid from the av

592
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: squad in high school finally getting the attention of the

593
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: quarterback and he felt all puffed up. And you know

594
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: by this horrible dictator, murderer, you know that this is

595
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: the person he admires. It should have been enough of

596
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: a warning sign for us, our our biggest international adversary

597
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: for how many decades? And that's who he Cozi's up to. Yeah,

598
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't you.

599
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: Know, the term of art is useful, idiot, But Frankly,

600
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 3: I think Trump is a useless idiot just you know,

601
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 3: just doesn't fit the quite that way.

602
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: How do you explain his appeal? Do you have any ida?

603
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you went to Harvard, so I feel like

604
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 1: I can ask you anything about pilotic Do you think

605
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: do you think it had anything to do with the

606
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: celebrity Apprentice because it was a number one show for

607
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: so many years and I think Americans believed what they

608
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: saw even though it was all a lie.

609
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 3: Sure, I think you know there's something that you said

610
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: about showmanship and that Trump presented himself as an effective

611
00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: leader and outsider when politics have been demonized, you know,

612
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 3: politicians are not to be heralded and praised for their

613
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: sacrifice in public service, but they're there now to be

614
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: kind of reviled as dirty, self serving, you know, kind.

615
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: Of corrupt and so forth. That's when when.

616
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: We take our political discourse towards attacking one one candidate

617
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: attacking another as corrupt. Uh, that's going to have a

618
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: toll on the general public. So the idea that this

619
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: guy was going to come in and drain the swamp

620
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: because he's an outsider that you know, government is too bloated,

621
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: like the Republicans have been saying it's ineffective that that

622
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 3: you know, we have we have a big government, our

623
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: tax dollars are being wasted. When when politicians say that

624
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: long enough, it's it's a propaganda threat that really starts

625
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: to kind of uh pervade the way people the way

626
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: people think about politics. And this guy was going to

627
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: come in to be an effective leader. Now nobody in

628
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 3: New York was going to buy that, because they knew

629
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: exactly was We'd been brought up recognizing that he's a

630
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: failure of fraud, you know, numerous bankruptcies and you know, infidelity.

631
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 2: All sorts of other stuff.

632
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: But the American public wasn't aware of that, and they

633
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: were effectively propagandized and convinced to believe it. And I

634
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: think that's part of it, But there was another part

635
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: of it, unfortunately, maybe more kind of insipid and dangerous.

636
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: He was willing to settle scores with the folks that

637
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: people felt they've been slighted by themselves, by diversity, by

638
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: you know, minorities that were taking their jobs, by all

639
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 3: of these things that you know are For whatever reason,

640
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: American public felt like they needed to settle a score

641
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 3: with and Trump was going to roll things back. He's

642
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: going to be regressive to give these folks their power.

643
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 3: So I think that that's a that is the more

644
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: dangerous component of this is that it kind of feeds

645
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: a base notion that you know, the reason that your

646
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: lot in life is so difficult is because somebody has

647
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: taken something that rightfully belonged to you, and Trump was

648
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 3: going to roll that back.

649
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: What do you think will happen if he is found guilty?

650
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: Will he ever serve time?

651
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: I think I think the fact is that I'm increasingly confident.

652
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: I think these there are four different indictments now having

653
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: different strength. I'd say that the first couple of indictments

654
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 3: uh probably weren't weren't the weighty ones and weren't going

655
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: to be sufficient to put him in irons. But his

656
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 3: indictment for uh mishandling classified information is very dangerous. These

657
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: are highly classified documents that he he stole, and potentially,

658
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: while the assessment is being done, it is hard to

659
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 3: fathom that other foreign intelligence networks that we're not aware

660
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 3: of the fact that he had all these classified documents,

661
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 3: were not looking to gain access to these documents.

662
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: So he potentially.

663
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: Compromised operations, compromised, Are you know, our intelligence at.

664
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: On the ground for all those all those people who

665
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: were murdered, you know, is he responsible for that? You know?

666
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean, so.

667
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: That's that's that's what's being analyzed right now. So I

668
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: think that is a grave crime, and I think he's

669
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: likely to serve time for that. And then the insurrection itself,

670
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 3: I think we're going to learn a lot more. I mean,

671
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: I think those of us that have been paying attention

672
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: understood how central Trump was to the whole insurrection and

673
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 3: the violence against the Capitol.

674
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: But he was completely the orchestrator of that, exactly right.

675
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 3: And you know, again, to me, this is apparent because

676
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: I saw firsthand in two thousand eighteen with the squeeze

677
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: on Lensky.

678
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 2: The rest of the public.

679
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: Really learned about it only after he attempted to claim

680
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: the fact that he the election was stolen from of course,

681
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: that's because he failed to steal it himself.

682
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: So he's doing a lot of nerdyritionging exactly So.

683
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: I think he's he's likely to serve time, actually, and

684
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: so are his enablers, which is critically important. It's not

685
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 3: just the king pen but then enablers, because the messages

686
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 3: needs to be sent to other folks that you know,

687
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 3: if they support a criminal enterprise, they're going to pay

688
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: the price. So I'm looking forward to the day that,

689
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 3: you know, justice has served against Giuliani and Mark Meadows

690
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 3: and all these other enablers, all.

691
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: Of the people on their roster got time. And I

692
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: just wonder, you know, what, where would we be able

693
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: to put him, to keep him quote unquote safe in

694
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: that environment. Where how would we be able to do that?

695
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: But partially, you know, whether or not he ends up

696
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: in jail to me, can't be the victory, although I

697
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: know he should. The fact that there are all of

698
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: these indictments and that were people like you, like who

699
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: at the courage to stand up for what's right. You know,

700
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: all of these DA's and all of these people who

701
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: refuse to bow to him, you know, they all deserve

702
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: to be put on a pedestal like I believe you do,

703
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: because you are what it means to be an American

704
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: in my mind.

705
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 2: You know, it's.

706
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: Interesting when I was testifying, I'm, for some reason, kind

707
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 3: of one of the more notable figures. But there were

708
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: lots of my colleagues that were up there with me,

709
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: and for me, one of the silver linings from the

710
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 3: whole episode was thought that the American public could see

711
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 3: behind the curtain about the excellence of public service and

712
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: excellent public service that their tax dollars were going towards.

713
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 3: So you know, we're seeing that the same kind of

714
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: we're seeing that play out with the district attorneys, with

715
00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 3: the other law enforcement officers the courts that are again

716
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: public servants doing the right thing, and that is not

717
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: something that's you know, kind of displayed on a regular

718
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: basis there. Instead, it's the narratives around that public servants

719
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 3: are a waste of resources, a waste of dollars, and

720
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 3: stuff like that. So I continue to try to take

721
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: every opportunity to elevate public service because it made me

722
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: in part of who I am. And yes, there are

723
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 3: countless thousands of public servants out there that are doing

724
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 3: their best to defend US national security, hold the line,

725
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 3: make sure that this country is governed by the role

726
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 3: of law.

727
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: So important. I mean, do you think that there will

728
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: be another politician with his kind of cult like status.

729
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: Do you think, like I look at DeSantis and I

730
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: think he doesn't have that thing whatever that thing is

731
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: whether that was you know, many years on a reality

732
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: show that portrayed him as someone he is not, or

733
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: whether it was some in a twisted charisma. I mean,

734
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I don't see another one like

735
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: him coming to power.

736
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 3: I think I think that is a hopeful perspective, and

737
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 3: I hope you're right. I think there are going to

738
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 3: be people that try to emulate it. I think, for instance,

739
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 3: RFK Junior is attempting to kind of juice the same

740
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 3: system on the left, although frankly he's you know, I

741
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 3: don't see what what that policies of his aligned with

742
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: kind of progressive.

743
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: No, or his experience. He doesn't have any experience in

744
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: terms of politics.

745
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 3: You know, sim kind of cult leadership though that he's

746
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: trying to trying to tap.

747
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he I think liberals and Democrats are not taking

748
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: a shine to him. I think even his own family,

749
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: the Kennedy family, has said no, we do not support him.

750
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: So I don't even take him seriously, to tell you

751
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: the truth.

752
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: I think that's right.

753
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: I think people will attempt to emulate some of his

754
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 3: some of Trump's success in terms of you know, just

755
00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: this unbelievably ironclad support from segments of society. But after

756
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, after his defeat in the next general election,

757
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: hopefully by larger margin, it's going to be close no

758
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: matter what. We're probably talking about two three four percent.

759
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 3: That's way too close for comfort between.

760
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: The Tsards to believe. You know, Alex, when you see

761
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: those newscasters who go into the Trump rallies and the

762
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: people are covered in their Trump swag and they say

763
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: the most absurd things like Joe Biden is dead and

764
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: that's actor James Woods, I'm like, these people are serious.

765
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: They're seriously saying this to a newscaster. I don't understand

766
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: the state of delusion, mass delusion. It's like, we need

767
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: people to get them out of the cult, and how

768
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: do we do that. I think it starts with these trials.

769
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: I think it starts with him being found guilty. I

770
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: think it starts with people seeing I think it's happening.

771
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: Do you think it's happening.

772
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: I think it's happening.

773
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 3: I think that plus the loss pretty significant loss in

774
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, nobody really you know, we like our underdogs,

775
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 3: but we probably don't like our people to lose repeatedly,

776
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: So I think that's going to take a lot of

777
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: the lustyre off, but the trials themselves are going to

778
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: be critically important to pull back the curtain on you know,

779
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 3: everything he's done to harm.

780
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: This country, and God knows, there's a lot of things. Yeah,

781
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: how's your brother doing. I'm curious about him? What you do?

782
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: You took off and got yourself a doctorate and are

783
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: working and is your brother as well as he did

784
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 1: he transition into something else he did.

785
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: He left service in August, so he's been out for

786
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 3: just about a year. In that time, he's been working

787
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 3: with the Department of State to hold the Russians accountable.

788
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: For war crimes in Ukraine. He's to Ukraine thirteen times.

789
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 3: He's heading actually to Ukraine and next several days for

790
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 3: his thirteenth trip. Within a year, he and I worked

791
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: together on a bunch of different projects. We have humanitarian

792
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: efforts to help equip the Ukrainian National Guard, to direct resources.

793
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 2: I mean, I've.

794
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: Established, you know, nonprofit to try to help Ukraine, all

795
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 3: sorts of different ideas to try to We're working on

796
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: d mining, We're working on veterans care for the Ukrainian

797
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: Armed Services. Lots of folks that need to be integrated,

798
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: both with heavy wounds and you know, with just psychological

799
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 3: scars back into study, all sorts of different projects that

800
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: try to be helpful.

801
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you served as well. I don't know if people

802
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: remember that that you served in Iraq, I believe right, Yeah,

803
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: how long were you there? How long?

804
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: So I was there for a year.

805
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 3: Eugene retired as his last position was as a colonel

806
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 3: and a judge advocate general. So like an attorney in

807
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 3: the military, we both served. We spent our careers in

808
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 3: the military. I serve on the border between North and

809
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 3: South Korea, in Ukraine and Russia for three years, all

810
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 3: sorts of different postings around the world.

811
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: So lots of more thank you for your service, needless

812
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: to say, you're one there fighting the war. Was you know,

813
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: unbelievably courageous and brave and enlisting and serving the country

814
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: that way. But you know, your courage and standing up

815
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: to this horrific administration and all of the damage it

816
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 1: has done will leave you a hero in the history

817
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: books and admired and adored by people all over this

818
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: country who believe what you believe. That you know here

819
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: you know right matters.

820
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Do I

821
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: recall that you have connections also to some military service.

822
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 1: Yes, my son is was a marine for four years,

823
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: and yeah, he hurt his back and that was kind

824
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: of a bummer for him because he wanted to have

825
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: a career in the military. And sure, you know, as

826
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: a mom, that was a very hard thing. You know,

827
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what your stepmom felt. I'm sure your

828
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: dad was supportive, but for moms, I don't know. It

829
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: was a maybe dad's too. It was a terrifying concept

830
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: when he said to me, you know, his left wing,

831
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: liberal democratic mother, anti war, you know, I'm going to

832
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: go join I was like, dear God, anything but this.

833
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: But I'm so proud of him, and I'm proud of

834
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: everyone who chooses to do that and defend this country.

835
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: Although I do wish we could abolish war in some

836
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: way and settle our differences, like saying adults not like

837
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, people from two hundred years ago. Sure listen.

838
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: My love to your wife, Rachel, your daughter, and your

839
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: whole family. I want to thank you for doing this.

840
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: I've wanted to speak to you for a very long time,

841
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: and my admiration is unending.

842
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I'm glad we get finally connected. Surprise,

843
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 3: it took us this long, but looking forward to speaking

844
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 3: to you.

845
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: Against Hen I know exactly. We had some Twitter interaction

846
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: there a little bit, but yeah, definitely, But thank you

847
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: for doing this, and I hope to hear from you

848
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: if the troll win the trial ends, I would love

849
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: to do this again so that we could uh take

850
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: a gander it at where we ended up.

851
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

852
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 1: Thank you all right, Alex, thank you so much. I

853
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed that. You know, we tend to run

854
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: a little along with these kinds of conversations, so we

855
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: don't have time for questions today. Next week the one

856
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: and only Kathy Griffin. Don't miss it. We drop on

857
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: Tuesdays onward with Rosie o'donald