Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. That is, of course, Don't Take
Speaker 1: Me Alive, from Steely Dan's nineteen seventy six album The
Speaker 1: Royal Scam.
Speaker 2: I Know you're out there with raises, your eyes and
Speaker 2: your back alone.
Speaker 1: The song features the guitar stylings of Larry Carlton. My
Speaker 1: guests today are two genius musicians whose artistry has contributed
Speaker 1: to some of the most memorable songs of the sixties, seventies,
Speaker 1: and eighties, leaving an indelible mark on the music world.
Speaker 1: Steve Gadd is one of the most influential drummers of
Speaker 1: all time, known for bridging jazz, rock and blues. Gadd's
Speaker 1: artistry can be heard on songs like Paul Simon's Fifty
Speaker 1: Ways to Leave Your Lover and Steely Dan's Asia. This
Speaker 1: is Steve Gadd with his band The Gad Gang playing
Speaker 1: Things Ain't What They Used to Be from the group's
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight album Here and Now. Steve Gadd has
Speaker 1: been a studio musician for countless artists from Carly Simon
Speaker 1: to Aretha Franklin, and has toured with Eric Clapton, James Taylor,
Speaker 1: Joe Cocker, Maynard Firms, Ferguson, Paul Simon, and many many more.
Speaker 1: But first my conversation with four time Grammy winner Larry Carlton.
Speaker 1: That's him playing his song Nightcrawler from his self titled
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight solo album. Carlton is a jazz and
Speaker 1: rock guitarist who has played on over three thousand recording
Speaker 1: sessions with everyone from Barbara Streisand and Sammy Davis Junior
Speaker 1: to Michael Jackson and Joni Mitchell. Among the songs he
Speaker 1: is most famous for is Steely Dan's Kid Charlemagne, which
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone named as one of the best guitar solos
Speaker 1: in rock music. Larry Carlton is also a member of
Speaker 1: legendary rock group The Crusaders, and even co wrote the
Speaker 1: theme songs for the TV shows Hill Street Blues and
Speaker 1: Who's the Boss. If that wasn't enough, the prolific guitarist
Speaker 1: has enjoyed an impressive solo career. I was curious how
Speaker 1: a musician that has offered such extraordinary support to others
Speaker 1: came to prioritize his own music and write his own songs.
Speaker 2: I didn't start writing songs until I had a record deal.
Speaker 2: I didn't pursue being a solo artist in the seventies.
Speaker 2: You know, I was so busy doing sessions, and that
Speaker 2: started early in nineteen seventy and by nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 2: I was already kind of burned out. I was doing,
Speaker 2: you know, five hundred sessions a year, charging double scale
Speaker 2: for all of those, so I couldn't charge any more money,
Speaker 2: and I was just getting kind of burned out. And
Speaker 2: in my teen years, I was a club player. I
Speaker 2: played jazz in a club and that was my passion.
Speaker 2: So I just started telling everybody that was calling me
Speaker 2: for sessions in nineteen seventy seven, I'm not doing sessions anymore.
Speaker 2: I'm going to start producing and just playing. So I
Speaker 2: took a gig in North Hollywood at a jazz club
Speaker 2: on Tuesday nights, and I was approached by a record
Speaker 2: producer from CBS, and he said, you thought about making
Speaker 2: a record, And that's how my solo career really started,
Speaker 2: by an offer that I wasn't looking for.
Speaker 1: So when you say about being burned out on the
Speaker 1: sessions thing, I would imagine that a time comes, the
Speaker 1: phone rings and you hang up the phone and go,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like, this is how you know you've
Speaker 1: made it. This is how you know you're at the
Speaker 1: upper echelon of the music business because it's Quincy Jones
Speaker 1: or whoever's on the phone where you sit there and go,
Speaker 1: my god, look at where I'm going. Was there a
Speaker 1: moment like that for you?
Speaker 2: Mostly early in my career. Pretty soon you get used
Speaker 2: to the client tile you're working with and it just
Speaker 2: becomes a daily Oh yeah, I got a session from
Speaker 2: Steely Dan, I got a session next week from Quincy,
Speaker 2: and it becomes the norm. But early in my career, yes,
Speaker 2: there were those days of realizing, my lord, look at
Speaker 2: my date book for the next three months, I'm busy,
Speaker 2: thankful and busy.
Speaker 1: And people that you were just super admiring of, like
Speaker 1: when you're in the room with them and you're saying,
Speaker 1: this is fun. I mean they're great musicians and great artists.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was That was another thing I realized.
Speaker 2: To get to play with some of the world's greatest
Speaker 2: musicians every day just raises the level that you already
Speaker 2: have an aptitude for because you're surrounded by that quality.
Speaker 1: You know, now, your mother, I read, had a guitar
Speaker 1: laying around and she played guitar, and you picked up
Speaker 1: the guitar when you were about six years old. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: now fooling around with a guitar and playing with a
Speaker 1: guitar like a toy. And then many many people put
Speaker 1: it down and they never pursue it. And then there's
Speaker 1: people who something happens. Is the nature or nurture? Does
Speaker 1: a person pick up a guitar and you've either got
Speaker 1: it or you don't? Or can you cajole people into
Speaker 1: becoming more exploring their musicianship? Which do you think it is?
Speaker 2: I think it's both, you do, and I've used the analogy.
Speaker 2: I mean, if a kid can shoot baskets at four
Speaker 2: years old with his dad out in the driveway and
Speaker 2: another kid down the block can't even get the ball,
Speaker 2: you know there's an aptitude waiting to be developed, I think,
Speaker 2: and the nurturing gives you that chance to go for
Speaker 2: it if you have the apptitude.
Speaker 1: And that was my case. Did your kids have any
Speaker 1: of that aptitude? Did it become the family business for
Speaker 1: either one of your kids or now? Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 2: My son Travis Carlton, he got the gift when he
Speaker 2: was little he would sit on my lap while I
Speaker 2: was at the mixing console, just doing rough mixes in
Speaker 2: my studio, and his body language, already at three years old,
Speaker 2: was in time with the music. He's a bass player.
Speaker 2: Right out of high school, he went to Musicians Institute
Speaker 2: in la And since then that's been gosh, twenty three
Speaker 2: years ago. Now he tours the world with me, and
Speaker 2: he tours the world with Robin Ford, and he tours
Speaker 2: the world with Scott Henderson, great guitar players, and just
Speaker 2: last year he was asked to join Steve Gadd's band.
Speaker 2: So Travis got the gift.
Speaker 1: You were born in nineteen forty eight, Yes, and when
Speaker 1: you're coming up, I'm assuming that someone who's as musically
Speaker 1: gifted as you is absorbing music early on. What was
Speaker 1: the music you were listening to in the fifties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can remember my grandmother having Perry Como records,
Speaker 2: Dean Martin records, So yeah, in the early fifties that
Speaker 2: was the music on the radio. And by the mid
Speaker 2: fifties then doo wop was coming, rock and roll was
Speaker 2: being explored on the radio. So I was hearing all
Speaker 2: of that also, And yeah, sure, sure, Chuck Berry, that
Speaker 2: but in Los Angeles, and it was a local television show.
Speaker 2: Every Saturday night, there was a country Western TV show
Speaker 2: called The town Hall Party. And the guitar player on
Speaker 2: that show was Joe Maphis, and he was the fastest
Speaker 2: damn guitar player you ever heard. And of course as
Speaker 2: a kid, you're just you know, you can't believe it,
Speaker 2: and so it's inspiring. I got to see that on
Speaker 2: Saturday nights. So a lot of different kinds of music
Speaker 2: I was listening to while starting to take guitar lessons.
Speaker 1: Now, in my business, there's a similar component where you
Speaker 1: go to work for Spielberg and you show up and
Speaker 1: you just say yes, sir, no, sir, I'm in a salute.
Speaker 1: Here's a guy that knows exactly what he wants from
Speaker 1: the first frame to the last frame, and you're there
Speaker 1: and you just want to say, tell me what you
Speaker 1: want me to do to help you make your movie. Now,
Speaker 1: other films I do with writer directors who are more new,
Speaker 1: they want your input. Does that chasm exist in your business?
Speaker 1: Two people who were very hands on and then people
Speaker 1: will sit there and say, you tell me what you
Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was fortunate that after recording with The Crusaders in
Speaker 2: the early seventies when I was twenty three, and then
Speaker 2: a number of other hits.
Speaker 1: Right after that.
Speaker 2: The producer started calling me and leaving the paper blank.
Speaker 2: They wanted me to create something on their production that
Speaker 2: maybe they would not have thought of. So I was
Speaker 2: very fortunate that I had that kind of freedom.
Speaker 1: Who pushed you the hardesty, even when you were younger,
Speaker 1: and they knew they were in a room, they were
Speaker 1: in a studio with a young guy. I don't mean
Speaker 1: it in an abusive way. I don't mean it in
Speaker 1: a pejorative way. Who really pushed you, producer and helped you.
Speaker 2: What comes to mind is in late sixty nine, twenty
Speaker 2: one got one of my first sessions for a film
Speaker 2: call on Universal, probably subbing for some time. My name
Speaker 2: was on the list, and then they couldn't get the
Speaker 2: guy they wanted for the afternoon session. So I walk
Speaker 2: into the session and it's all the heavy cats and
Speaker 2: it's a Quincy Jones. He's doing Fat Albert for Cosby.
Speaker 1: The background music.
Speaker 2: Well, what Quincy would do with this is he had
Speaker 2: the score for small band I don't know, three horns,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, we would do a take. Maybe the
Speaker 2: guitar part was just chords, junk NK, nothing important. But
Speaker 2: then what Quincy would do is say, all right now
Speaker 2: on this one guitar take the flute part. Flutes take
Speaker 2: that he would reorchestrate it on the spot. So, all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, twenty one years old, walking into this
Speaker 2: heavy thing and they're going to hand me the flute part,
Speaker 2: pushed me, not knowing that that was really something I
Speaker 2: had never done before. Well, I made it. I made
Speaker 2: the parts, did a good job. Years and years later,
Speaker 2: after working off and on with Quincy, I asked him
Speaker 2: about that date. I said, I remember my first date.
Speaker 2: It was fat Albert blah blah blah and blah blah,
Speaker 2: and I said I walked out of there scared to death.
Speaker 2: He said, all I remember is you did a good job.
Speaker 2: In other words, he was care maybe out the guitar
Speaker 2: player playing the flute part. But I never forgot that
Speaker 2: because it showed me the challenges that could come up
Speaker 2: as a session player.
Speaker 1: When you go into a room and you do what
Speaker 1: you do, is it really all the same? Meaning? Music
Speaker 1: is music, and musicians have a certain language and a
Speaker 1: certain code, and it doesn't matter if it's Neil Diamond
Speaker 1: or you know, James Ingram, Sure, you know Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1: Is it really there's an essential base of it that's
Speaker 1: just the same whoever you work with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the approach is the same. Like I said, they're
Speaker 2: expecting many of us in the rhythm section, especially to
Speaker 2: come up with parts to enhance their song. And you
Speaker 2: take a great producer arranger like Quincy Jones. When I
Speaker 2: got the call to play on Michael Jackson's She's Out
Speaker 2: of My Life. I got to the studio and Michael
Speaker 2: had already cut his vocal and Greg phill and Gaines's
Speaker 2: keyboard part was already cut, and that's all there was.
Speaker 2: And they wanted my guitar to somehow enhance this small production.
Speaker 3: So I did.
Speaker 2: I did what I liked, and then Quincy, I know
Speaker 2: one part I played I run through and Quincy looked
Speaker 2: over at Bruce Swedeen, the engineer, and he said will
Speaker 2: it print? And Bruce said it's too low. So the
Speaker 2: engineer's input was he knew when he went to mix
Speaker 2: that record my guitar part that I had felt was
Speaker 2: in the wrong range. Said okay. Quincy said, okay, try
Speaker 2: some other things that aren't so low. So that kind
Speaker 2: of collaboration off of my creativity to their input made
Speaker 2: that final product. They let you find your way, yes,
Speaker 2: but with their guidance.
Speaker 1: Right. Some of my favorite music that you have played
Speaker 1: is with Steely Dan. I love Nightfly and you played
Speaker 1: on Nightfly. Yeah, I love that album. But when you're
Speaker 1: with a duo like that, is there one of them
Speaker 1: that's more Becker is renowned as being a very quiet guy,
Speaker 1: you know, he's not Fagan, and Fagan was much more
Speaker 1: colorful and much more articulate. And they wrote the songs together.
Speaker 1: But when you were in the studio with them, did
Speaker 1: they both contributed? They both have somebody to say about
Speaker 1: they want what they wanted you to do, or one
Speaker 1: person took the lead.
Speaker 2: I would say they were like brothers, and I'm thinking now,
Speaker 2: not on the tracking dates, but when I would be
Speaker 2: over dubbing guitar solo, they would listen and react and
Speaker 2: one guy would say, oh, let's try blah blah blah
Speaker 2: blah blah, and maybe next time it would be Donald's.
Speaker 1: Saying I really liked that part right.
Speaker 2: There, and they would collaborate. It was amazing in that
Speaker 2: while we were doing the tracking dates. Donald was a
Speaker 2: little more involved because he was more sophisticated harmonically at
Speaker 2: the keyboard when they wrote those tunes, so he could
Speaker 2: interpret and get more involved in chord voicinges and things
Speaker 2: like that. But I'm sure when they were collaborating writing
Speaker 2: the tunes, the two of them together, their brains just
Speaker 2: went nuts and came up with those great songs.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there's no song I know of more
Speaker 1: than Don't Take Me Alive and the guitar playing you did?
Speaker 1: I mean I listened to that. I mean I get
Speaker 1: a chill.
Speaker 2: I didn't tell this story for many years, but when
Speaker 2: The Royal Scam by Steely Dan did come out, there
Speaker 2: was a review in Rolling Stone raving about my Kid
Speaker 2: Charlemagne solo. Yeah, and I hadn't thought of that song
Speaker 2: or that album since the session, and so got the record,
Speaker 2: put it on, listened to Kid Charlemagne with my then wife,
Speaker 2: and at the end of the song, I looked at
Speaker 2: her and I never forgot this was so honest, I said.
Speaker 1: It just sounds like me.
Speaker 2: I mean really, so, I'm glad the world reacted the
Speaker 2: way they did to it. But I didn't know it.
Speaker 1: How many recordings do you think you did with.
Speaker 2: Stealing that Royal Scam? Asia will include Nightfly in there
Speaker 2: with Donald Gaucho was an interesting one. They cut that
Speaker 2: in New York and I wasn't involved at all. But
Speaker 2: when the record came out again, reviews were saying Larry
Speaker 2: Carlton's solo on Third World Man. I thought I didn't
Speaker 2: play on that album. So this story was told to
Speaker 2: me later that the second engineer had erased one of
Speaker 2: their masters by accident and they needed one one more
Speaker 2: song for the Gaucho album. So they went back into
Speaker 2: the archives of the Royal Scam and we had cut
Speaker 2: Third World Man, And that's how I ended up on Gaucho.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of self destructive behavior going onto
Speaker 1: the music business in the seventies, a lot of people
Speaker 1: that were self immolating with drugs and alcohol, and you know,
Speaker 1: very talented people who ended up dead. Now in your business,
Speaker 1: whether it's you or anyone else, do you find yourself
Speaker 1: sometimes sitting there going I'll pass. I don't necessarily want
Speaker 1: to go into the studio with that person because they're
Speaker 1: a mess and you're not quite sure you want to work.
Speaker 1: Was there any of that for you were there people
Speaker 1: you came across again, no names, but people you thought,
Speaker 1: I'm not so interested.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I have named this name before, and I
Speaker 2: think it's appropriate. Phil Spector's office called me for five
Speaker 2: nights of recording with John Lennon when he was producing
Speaker 2: him and the other musicians, a couple of them, Leon Russell, myself.
Speaker 2: Bottom line, we get to the studio and first, let's
Speaker 2: say a six pm session call. Well, nobody showed up
Speaker 2: Phil or John until like nine thirty or ten, and
Speaker 2: then we went out and we were going to cut
Speaker 2: the old rock and roll song Boney Maroney. Well, I
Speaker 2: knew that was when I was a kid. I played
Speaker 2: Bonie Morony. But this was at a bad time for John,
Speaker 2: first time I'd ever met him. So he's sitting next
Speaker 2: to me and he's calling the chord changes to Bonie Maroney. Well,
Speaker 2: there are three and I played it as a kid.
Speaker 2: So the bottom line was not a good time for John.
Speaker 2: The session was a drag. We waited four hours plus
Speaker 2: to play Bonye Marony. When I left the session, I
Speaker 2: drove Leon Russell back to the Sunset Marquis and I said, man,
Speaker 2: that was a drag. And with his Oklahoma accent. He said,
Speaker 2: I didn't come back to Tulsa in the morning, so
Speaker 2: I got home and immediately just went to my call
Speaker 2: and canceled the rest of the week for Phil Spector's thing.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to sit through that for five nights
Speaker 2: a drunk artist, a late start, So it was a
Speaker 2: bad experience. And I guess some months later, I don't
Speaker 2: know how many months later they did end up getting
Speaker 2: that album finished, but I didn't participate.
Speaker 1: Right right, Well, thank you for sharing that. And it's
Speaker 1: an interesting thing where people who have that problem like
Speaker 1: in my business, you know, I mean, it's very different.
Speaker 1: I think of music as as I always say, acting
Speaker 1: is what you do when you have no musical talents.
Speaker 1: You were married and you have two children. Yes, And
Speaker 1: during the height of your career you were living where
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: Hollywood Hills, right above the Pilgrimage, right.
Speaker 1: And the peripatetic nature of your business was that tough
Speaker 1: on your family You're traveling all the time.
Speaker 2: Say yes, my first child, Katie Bug, she was born
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty, so I was already ten years into
Speaker 2: my session career and also moving out, you know, moving
Speaker 2: out of the session scene into the solo scene. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I started traveling more and more, and I would say
Speaker 2: it took a toll for sure, which you'll hear that
Speaker 2: story from a lot of players.
Speaker 1: I think sure.
Speaker 2: I can remember when Katie was maybe two years old.
Speaker 2: I was sitting out on the driveway with her.
Speaker 1: This is one of.
Speaker 2: Those things that a dad never forgets, you know, and
Speaker 2: we were just hanging out, had my arm around her,
Speaker 2: with just me and my little girl, and I remember
Speaker 2: being so in love with her that I looked down
Speaker 2: I said, I'll always take care of you. And it
Speaker 2: was a special moment for me because it just came out,
Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, and to this day, both of
Speaker 2: my children were very, very very tight, even though we've
Speaker 2: gone through some things of course that all people do.
Speaker 1: Guitarist Larry Carlton, If you love conversations with gifted musicians
Speaker 1: who played with the biggest names in the business, be
Speaker 1: sure to check out my episode with Paul McCartney's drummer
Speaker 1: Abe Lboreal Junior.
Speaker 4: You know, for me as a drummer, I'm not so
Speaker 4: much focused on what I'm playing. I'm focused on what
Speaker 4: they're doing, and I'm listening to them like I get
Speaker 4: to be the ultimate audience and just to sit there
Speaker 4: and to listen to these incredible musicians play, and you know,
Speaker 4: they they end up orbiting so far, and my job
Speaker 4: is just to make sure that we still know where
Speaker 4: they're tethered to, that we're not all going so far
Speaker 4: that we lose the audience.
Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with abe Leboreal Junior at
Speaker 1: Here's Thething dot Org. After the Break, Larry Carlton shares
Speaker 1: the story of his recovery from a near death experience
Speaker 1: and his journey to be able to play music again.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: Larry Carlton's collaborations with the biggest artists in music had
Speaker 1: been bringing down the house since the nineteen sixties, after
Speaker 1: over two decades of musical success. Tragically, Larry Carlton was
Speaker 1: also the victim of a senseless act of violence in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. Carlton would recover and go on to
Speaker 1: start the nonprofit Helping Innocent People. I asked him about
Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding the vicious.
Speaker 2: Attack my home in the Hollywood Hills, at my basement
Speaker 2: studio Room three thirty five it was called. I was
Speaker 2: there to do charts for that evening's sessions, and under
Speaker 2: the car port. We had converted to garage into an
Speaker 2: office and my manager worked out of that office with
Speaker 2: his secretary, so we were self contained at the home.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I showed up that afternoon to go downstairs
Speaker 2: and do the charts for that evening sessions. And the
Speaker 2: entrance door to that office off of the car port
Speaker 2: was a jar, and I could see out the window
Speaker 2: that there were two young boys and a German shepherd
Speaker 2: dog jogging. So I walked over to the door because
Speaker 2: it was a jar, and I was going to shut
Speaker 2: it so the dog wouldn't come in the office. And
Speaker 2: when I got to the door, the boys were right
Speaker 2: about entering the carport and I was going to say, hey, guys,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to shut the shot me and then
Speaker 2: they ran off. And the physical part of what I
Speaker 2: remember at that moment, as my left arm went numb.
Speaker 2: I thought I was shot in the arm, but I
Speaker 2: was shot in the throat and that traumatized all the
Speaker 2: nerves to my left arm. So that's how the events started.
Speaker 1: And what would you attribute because you'd say, an injury
Speaker 1: to that part of the body seems ninety nine percent
Speaker 1: it would be fatal for those of it. I don't
Speaker 1: understand physiognomy, But what do you attribute to the fact
Speaker 1: that you survived a lot of luck.
Speaker 2: The paramedics were right down the hill from my home
Speaker 2: and they got the call that there had been a
Speaker 2: gun shot wound. Within minutes, the secretary called nine one
Speaker 2: one and they were on the way back from another call,
Speaker 2: so they just turned and came right up the hill
Speaker 2: and they put pressure. You know, I got hidden the carrotid,
Speaker 2: so I have a half inch graph in my carotid
Speaker 2: artery here on the left side. And they rushed me
Speaker 2: to Saint Joseph's, which was what seven eight minutes down
Speaker 2: the hill, and both surgeons, the best they had happened
Speaker 2: to be there that day, and so that was the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they put.
Speaker 2: The graft in and from there they said, we know
Speaker 2: he's a guitar player, and we've looked at the trauma
Speaker 2: to his left arm nerves. He will play again, but
Speaker 2: we don't know.
Speaker 1: At what level.
Speaker 2: That's that's how that part started. And of course, many
Speaker 2: many many many months of physical therapy to regenerate the
Speaker 2: nerves from the upper part of my arm down in
Speaker 2: my fingertips was pretty unbelievable. And then from all that,
Speaker 2: it came back with hard work. And I only have
Speaker 2: alec You're probably aware, I only have one vocal cord
Speaker 2: that functions. So luckily my left vocal cord was over
Speaker 2: the midline, so the right cord can touch it and
Speaker 2: I can talk. Other than that, I wouldn't be I
Speaker 2: would have just died. I wouldn't have been able to
Speaker 2: close off. I would have choked to death. So the
Speaker 2: in a nutshell, that's the trauma drama of being shot
Speaker 2: in the Hollywood Hills. And lastly, the detectives obviously did
Speaker 2: their job over the months and months and months, and
Speaker 2: the conclusion that they came to was it was a
Speaker 2: gang initiation shooting two kids. One of them has to
Speaker 2: go out and shoot Joe's citizen, not just Larry Carlton,
Speaker 2: but shoot the citizen. The other kid watches. They can
Speaker 2: go back and say, yep, he did it, so he
Speaker 2: could be They call them, no, no.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, how awful. I'll try traumatizing. Yeah, I traumatize
Speaker 1: if they get shot there, of all places, it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of other pleasure you get shot.
Speaker 1: Obviously that are from the neck up. That would be problematic.
Speaker 1: But my god, God, God bless you that you survived that.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Who's someone you wished you played with from
Speaker 1: another era? How far did you miss getting to work
Speaker 1: with Sinatra or someone like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't do Sinatra, but did Dean Martin, Sammy
Speaker 2: Davis Junior. Because Jimmy Bowen was the producer of Sinatra
Speaker 2: and all that stuff, so I was on Jimmy's list,
Speaker 2: worked for him all the time. Someone I wish I
Speaker 2: could have played one song with live would have been
Speaker 2: McCoy tyner. Why because the John Coltrane Quartet influenced my
Speaker 2: emotions so much as a young musician, meaning fourteen years old, thirteen, fourteen,
Speaker 2: fifteen years old, when I heard that group play, I mean,
Speaker 2: Coltrane so soulful, and the way McCoy that whole unit
Speaker 2: just thrilled me emotionally as a young musician in my prime.
Speaker 2: I wish I could have played one blues song with
Speaker 2: McCoy tyner live, just to experience it, and I would
Speaker 2: have felt completely out of my league. But I wanted
Speaker 2: to experience that because he and Coltrane, that thing became
Speaker 2: so important to me. I think the reason Alec Humbly
Speaker 2: that I can play so melodically and hopefully so soulful
Speaker 2: and sometimes so simply is because of my response to
Speaker 2: the Coltrane album Ballads. All John Coltrane does is play
Speaker 2: the damn song no Licks, no nothing and slay me emotionally.
Speaker 1: Now a person you have an important relationship with, it
Speaker 1: seems just Robin Ford. Yeah, And how did that come about?
Speaker 2: After I had recorded with Joni Mitchell and with Tom
Speaker 2: Scott in the La Express, which was basically the band
Speaker 2: that we backed Jony with in the studio for Court
Speaker 2: and Spark and Hijira and those albums, and Tom wanted
Speaker 2: me to go on the road, and also they wanted
Speaker 2: Joe Sample and I to go on the road to
Speaker 2: support the Court and Spark album that we did with Jony. Well,
Speaker 2: Joe and I were still touring with the Crusaders somewhat
Speaker 2: and both still involved in studio works, so we didn't
Speaker 2: want to go on the road. Well, Tom Scott knew
Speaker 2: about this kid up in San Francisco named Robin Ford,
Speaker 2: so they brought Robin in to take my place with
Speaker 2: the La Express and the Joni Mitchell tour, and they
Speaker 2: asked me to come over to the rehearsal and kind
Speaker 2: of meet Robin and show him my setup. And after that,
Speaker 2: shortly after that, Robin was playing at that jazz club
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier at Dante's with someone Shit. This kid
Speaker 2: played that hell out of the guitar and I went,
Speaker 2: oh boy, there's one of those guys. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to meet him, invited him to my house. We jammed downstairs,
Speaker 2: just the two guitars. I wanted to hear this kid play,
Speaker 2: and we became good good friends.
Speaker 1: Well for a man that played with a range of
Speaker 1: people from cass Elliott to Peter Gabriel to Leslie Gore
Speaker 1: to James Ingram and Michael Jackson and Jirou and on
Speaker 1: and on and on. I just want to say what
Speaker 1: a great honor was to get to meet you as
Speaker 1: I play music and you're on there and your contribution
Speaker 1: to the music you make and you have played every
Speaker 1: kind of music I mean is it's just is uncanny.
Speaker 1: The range of your talent and the range of your career.
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's remarkable. Have you enjoyed it? Of
Speaker 1: course you.
Speaker 2: Getting one of the most blessed musicians in the world.
Speaker 1: And one of the most talented.
Speaker 2: Thanks Ali, Thank you buddy.
Speaker 1: Guitarist Larry Carlton. My next guest. Drumming legend Steve Gadd
Speaker 1: has spent a career keeping time for the best of
Speaker 1: the best in music. That's Goad on drums playing Sister
Speaker 1: Sadie with his band Steve Gadd and Friends from the
Speaker 1: twenty ten album Live at the Voce. I wanted to
Speaker 1: know when you're hired by heavyweights like Chad Baker, Paul Simon,
Speaker 1: Quincy Jones or Gladys Knight, who is in charge of
Speaker 1: the studio session.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's different. In every situation is a little different.
Speaker 3: But it could be the artist, it could be the producer.
Speaker 3: A lot most of the time it's it's it's a combination.
Speaker 3: You know, we're in there everyone. We're looking for an
Speaker 3: agreement the creative process. You know, you can interject what
Speaker 3: you feel when the right time is you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody's opinion is important. It's just you have
Speaker 3: to know the right time to sort of to put it,
Speaker 3: you know, to get involved and you know the more
Speaker 3: recording I did, the more I got used to do.
Speaker 3: In that you learn the ropes, Yeah, and how to
Speaker 3: work with people, how to understand what they're you know,
Speaker 3: it's tricky when they're asking verbally for something musically, it's
Speaker 3: hard to always to understand, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So that it's a process of getting to know each
Speaker 3: other and trust each other, and for me not to
Speaker 3: be afraid to try things maybe that I didn't necessarily
Speaker 3: come up with, but things that they thought that might work.
Speaker 3: And sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But that's the process,
Speaker 3: you know, trial and error, just trying to come up
Speaker 3: with the agreement.
Speaker 1: So you're in the room, you're in the studio with
Speaker 1: the whole battalion, or I want you to teach me
Speaker 1: about is it people individually because a lot of times
Speaker 1: you see performers recording these seminal things as the guy
Speaker 1: singing the vocals by himself or she's singing the vocals
Speaker 1: by herself. Do you do the drumming by yourself? Sometimes
Speaker 1: with cans on and you're listening to the track and
Speaker 1: you're drumming and nobody else is there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the thing that's happened later on,
Speaker 3: you know, the equipment, you can go in by yourself.
Speaker 3: They got the tracks already done and you just you know,
Speaker 3: try to fit in. But with no other people there.
Speaker 1: How did you feel about that doesn't sound as fun.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, back in the seventies, but the live
Speaker 3: thing was fun for a lot of different reasons, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. There were a lot of different
Speaker 3: things going on. But looking back, we spent a lot
Speaker 3: of time, you know, going over tracks and if there
Speaker 3: was a mistake, you'd have to do a whole other take. Yes,
Speaker 3: and they were editing things. But now with the computers,
Speaker 3: people can do the guitar and bassed stuff and keyboard stuff,
Speaker 3: and then they can do it all separately to a
Speaker 3: click track, and.
Speaker 1: They can have you come in I would imagine, and
Speaker 1: do like even a snippet. They might say, this little piece, right,
Speaker 1: just give us that. We don't need you to do
Speaker 1: the whole take.
Speaker 3: They could do that, you know, or And that's one
Speaker 3: of the nice things about the way recording is done today.
Speaker 3: You don't have to do the whole track again. They
Speaker 3: can really go in and just pick and choose what
Speaker 3: they want to do and go for that. So time wise,
Speaker 3: it works, but it's definitely not as much fun as
Speaker 3: it used to.
Speaker 1: Be, you know what I mean, but maybe healthier.
Speaker 3: Well, it's healthier and more and more time efficient.
Speaker 1: I think it's more time official now. At some point,
Speaker 1: Steve gadd is this kid from Rochester. He's playing the drums.
Speaker 1: He goes and you know his uncle plays the drums.
Speaker 1: He's in a big band. You're eleven years old. How
Speaker 1: does it start?
Speaker 3: Well, in the seventies. My whole life, I've been playing drums,
Speaker 3: you know, in grammar school, I started taking lessons, and
Speaker 3: then in high school I was in a drum corps,
Speaker 3: and I was in the military. I was in the
Speaker 3: Army band for three years, five years in music college.
Speaker 3: That's all I ever wanted to do. My goal was
Speaker 3: to if I could support myself playing music, that was it.
Speaker 3: So after the Army I went to New York. Someone
Speaker 3: I went to school with Tony Levin bass player. We
Speaker 3: were in college together and worked with gap Man, Joni
Speaker 3: chuck Manjoni's brother is this, Well, this is at Eastman
Speaker 3: and in Rochester, New York with Tony and I were
Speaker 3: at Eastman School and music together.
Speaker 1: Because you went to Manhattan first.
Speaker 3: I went to two years to Manhattan because my grades
Speaker 3: weren't really good enough to get in.
Speaker 1: That's a very prestigious school. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I got my grades up at Manhattan School
Speaker 3: and music transferred back to Eastman, which is in my
Speaker 3: hometown Rochester. So not only was I doing things in
Speaker 3: school and ensembles and orchestras, but I was working with
Speaker 3: Chuck and gap Man Joni, you know, six nights a week,
Speaker 3: so there was a lot. I was playing lot. And
Speaker 3: I got to New York and a couple of things started.
Speaker 3: My father got terminally ill, and my first marriage, you know,
Speaker 3: started falling apart. And music was the only thing in
Speaker 3: those years that I felt like where I was doing
Speaker 3: anything that was good, positive, where I was able to
Speaker 3: do something and felt like I was giving people what
Speaker 3: they were looking for. It was just perfect timing for me.
Speaker 3: I was ready, I was hungry, I had you know,
Speaker 3: studied a lot, My reading was good. So music was
Speaker 3: the thing that was like my escape from all of
Speaker 3: these other things that were just falling apart. Plus I
Speaker 3: was getting high and stuff. I was taking cocaine because
Speaker 3: a lot of work was coming in.
Speaker 1: Was it a struggle to stop or did you stop
Speaker 1: pretty riskly. Were we able to control or did it
Speaker 1: drag on for a while trying.
Speaker 3: It went on for like fifteen years. I was hitting
Speaker 3: it and it was not easy to stop, you know.
Speaker 3: I ended up in a hospital in Brooklyn, and then
Speaker 3: from there I went to Saint Mary's Rehab. My idea
Speaker 3: was I'd go and you know, relax for a month
Speaker 3: so the heat was off, and then I'd go out
Speaker 3: and start hitting it again, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And something happened in rehab where the second step I
Speaker 3: came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could
Speaker 3: restore us to sanity. It just dawned on me that
Speaker 3: I was completely out of my mind, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean. And I had never up until that point,
Speaker 3: I thought that everyone else was the cause of my problems.
Speaker 3: You know, I could blame it on anybody, and I
Speaker 3: was the last person I would look at, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. But when I finally looked at myself
Speaker 3: and saw that I was nuts.
Speaker 1: Now, eventually you become someone where the phone doesn't stop ringing.
Speaker 1: I have a list in front of me. They gave
Speaker 1: me a list that has to be twenty pages long
Speaker 1: of the tracks that you played on. That's just some
Speaker 1: of them. Eventually you become a guy where the phone
Speaker 1: doesn't stop ringing everybody you know who can they want
Speaker 1: you to comeplay the drums for them. When do you
Speaker 1: believe that happened? And why? When do you start to
Speaker 1: get into the room with the people who are really
Speaker 1: at the top of the game. Who calls you first?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean back in those days, Paul Simon was
Speaker 3: the first really huge, you know, music celebrity, and Phil
Speaker 3: Ramone was producing him, and it's a process of getting
Speaker 3: to know each other. But you know, I think I
Speaker 3: was the right person for Paul at that time. Right,
Speaker 3: wasn't just like a studio guy that did one gendre.
Speaker 3: I mean I loved a lot of different genres of music.
Speaker 1: And that's part. Oh yeah, Paul was very diversified then.
Speaker 3: Paul, he's always looking for a new way to do it.
Speaker 1: What was the album? The first album you did with them?
Speaker 3: I'm still crazy after all these years. The first song
Speaker 3: I ever recorded with him was well, what the hell
Speaker 3: have a good time?
Speaker 1: And when you do something with someone like Paul, I'm
Speaker 1: assuming there must be a diversity of people who say
Speaker 1: we're going to do this and you do like fifty takes,
Speaker 1: and there's people who do three takes. Have you just
Speaker 1: seen the gamut and the range of people who like,
Speaker 1: let's just do this quickly and we got and I'm happy,
Speaker 1: or they're like really really really picky in in detail.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's both. I mean, Paul is very picky.
Speaker 3: Fagan and Steely Dan they were, you know, really picky too.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like they had something in mind that
Speaker 3: they wanted, but they didn't know what it Wasn't.
Speaker 1: That's funny, you know what I mean? Yeah, And when
Speaker 1: you struggled as an artist and you're with these big people,
Speaker 1: now you're with the t you're at the top, and
Speaker 1: you stay at the top for quite a while, you know,
Speaker 1: you stay there then. I mean, but when you're there
Speaker 1: were there people who you would struggle and struggle and
Speaker 1: struggle and work and work and work it. And then
Speaker 1: when you got it, did they like look at you
Speaker 1: and go, God, that's it and they were happy? Or
Speaker 1: did they just was it just business and they got
Speaker 1: up and they walked down they were like thanks.
Speaker 3: You know what. Back in those days, it was like,
Speaker 3: you know, they were happy, they were they.
Speaker 1: Was a brotherhood.
Speaker 3: Well, it was a brotherhood, and it was about the
Speaker 3: It was about the music. You know. It wasn't about
Speaker 3: what market we're targeting and things like that. It was
Speaker 3: just about they had something they wanted to say that
Speaker 3: was important to them and everybody. It was important to
Speaker 3: everybody involved, you know, to the engineer or the producer,
Speaker 3: to the artists and to the musicians. They studio musicians.
Speaker 3: You know, they want to hang in there until we
Speaker 3: get to take you know what I mean. They don't
Speaker 3: want to give up let it go.
Speaker 1: Who are the people you work with? Like, are you
Speaker 1: in a room and clapped in plays and you sit
Speaker 1: there and go, Jesus Christ, look at this guy, Look
Speaker 1: at him? Who did you admire?
Speaker 3: There's many people I admire, Chuck Rainey, Richard T, Cornell Duprie,
Speaker 3: all these guys that were on these sessions that you know,
Speaker 3: these guys used to work with Aretha and King Curtis
Speaker 3: and there was so much history. You know, they had
Speaker 3: been a part of writing the book, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean. There was so much to learn by having
Speaker 3: the opportunity to play with these guys.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you have your drum kit or multiple drum
Speaker 1: kits and they take it to the studio, they ship
Speaker 1: it for you, and you set it up and everything,
Speaker 1: and so you don't play on somebody else's kit.
Speaker 3: Most of the time it's not, you know, it's my own,
Speaker 3: you know, most of it. Sometimes it's not, But most
Speaker 3: of the time it is Kim.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And your kit that you have now is one
Speaker 1: that you found when you've been playing the same kit
Speaker 1: for how long?
Speaker 3: Well, this last kit was probably about fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 3: You know why I'm playing? Yeah, And what do you
Speaker 3: like about it? I like the sizes. I like birch
Speaker 3: wood for toms and maple for a bass drum, and
Speaker 3: there's a metal snare.
Speaker 1: So every kid out there right now is writing all
Speaker 1: this Dad.
Speaker 3: You know, you know me. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 3: There's so many different kinds of equipment out there. I
Speaker 3: don't know how anyone would would really know how to choose.
Speaker 1: But you didn't become so technically spoiled or whatever where
Speaker 1: you walk in and go, oh, fuck, the mike's a Sennheiser,
Speaker 1: and I'd rather have whatever. You didn't care.
Speaker 3: I let the engineer do that, you know. I do
Speaker 3: what I do, and they do what they do. And
Speaker 3: I try to work with them, right, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the idea, and not tell them how
Speaker 3: to do it, but just let them do what they
Speaker 3: do and work together to try and just you know,
Speaker 3: make the music happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, drummer Steve Gadd, if you're enjoying this conversation, don't
Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, Tell a friend and follow Here's
Speaker 1: the thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, Steve Gadd shares
Speaker 1: how his inescapable talent spared him from serving in Vietnam.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. That's
Speaker 1: Steve Gadd and the Gad Gang performing the song Little
Speaker 1: Brother live in nineteen eighty eight. Gadd co wrote the
Speaker 1: song with Richard T. Steve Gadd was a bit of
Speaker 1: a musical prodigy when he picked up his instrument at
Speaker 1: the ripe age of four. By eleven, he had played
Speaker 1: with the likes of bandleader Dizzy Gillespie. I wanted to
Speaker 1: know how he came to sit in with the legendary
Speaker 1: trumpeter at such a young age.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me tell you. In Rochester when I was
Speaker 3: growing up there was a lot of music going on,
Speaker 3: and there was this club called the Ridgecrest in a
Speaker 3: small little club, and they brought in Gene Kruper, k Winding,
Speaker 3: Dizzy Gillespie, Carmen McCrae, Wow. And they used to have
Speaker 3: Sunday afternoon matines you know what I mean, like from
Speaker 3: like four to six, and you know sometimes they'd let
Speaker 3: people sit in and the matinees and you know, the
Speaker 3: artists were so gracious they'd let us kids sit in.
Speaker 3: You know, we were kids, We were hungry to you know,
Speaker 3: I got a chance to see Gene Krupa and sit
Speaker 3: in with them. Growing up in that atmosphere was tremendous.
Speaker 1: And there's a scene then in Rochester because people forget
Speaker 1: that when Kodak was humming, when everything was film, Rochester
Speaker 1: was a very important city.
Speaker 3: You know, it was booming, Kodak, Xerox, bauschan Lam, general dynamics.
Speaker 3: You know, there was a lot going on. There was
Speaker 3: a lot of music, a lot of clubs, a lot
Speaker 3: of music. And this one club brought in the big
Speaker 3: names like Dizzy. And because we frequented the place, the
Speaker 3: owner of the club would you know, introduce the families
Speaker 3: to the artists and you know, let them know that
Speaker 3: these kids are serious, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 3: Chuck's parents would invite Dizzy and the band over to
Speaker 3: our house for spaghetti and stuff. So it was you know,
Speaker 3: and and in those days they were the same bands
Speaker 3: would come back in, you know, like they so you'd
Speaker 3: get to know him. That was that was the circuit,
Speaker 3: you know. There were no big venues back then, you know.
Speaker 3: And Dizzy gave Chucky a trumpet, you know, one a
Speaker 3: trumpet with the bell that went up, and Art Blakey
Speaker 3: gave me a symbol. You know. One time, Papa Joe
Speaker 3: Jones was playing at the club with Tommy Bryant and
Speaker 3: his brother Ray Bryant playing bass, and something happened in
Speaker 3: New York to Pop with Joe Jones, kid got in
Speaker 3: an accident or something, so he had to leave, and
Speaker 3: the owner of the club called my parents and asked
Speaker 3: if I could go in and play the night with
Speaker 3: Tommy and Ray Bryant. Man, it was like I was,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe I was like eleven or twelve years
Speaker 3: years old, but you know, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Now were you excited when you were told you were
Speaker 1: relieved of combat duty, so you could play the drums
Speaker 1: for three years in the army.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, in those years, if you weren't in
Speaker 3: college or had some kind of deferment, you were going
Speaker 3: to end up in Vietnam in the jungle, was Yeah,
Speaker 3: And so a lot of guys in music in music college.
Speaker 3: During the last year all I did, my teacher, John Beck,
Speaker 3: hooked me up with an audition for the Army Field
Speaker 3: Band in Fort Mead, Maryland, and I was accepted. And
Speaker 3: you know, so you go to basic training and then
Speaker 3: you report for duty at Fort Mead and you're in
Speaker 3: the States for the whole time. We were the you know,
Speaker 3: official touring band for the Army in those years, and
Speaker 3: we you know, drive across the States and do concerts
Speaker 3: at different high schools, you know, trying to you know,
Speaker 3: just promote the Army forces. And so yeah, I was.
Speaker 3: I knew I wasn't going to have to if I
Speaker 3: took the Army gig, I wasn't going to have to
Speaker 3: go to Vietnam.
Speaker 1: Right, So you played your ass off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I played my ass off. But I when I graduated,
Speaker 3: I waited to see if I was going to get
Speaker 3: my draft papers because the Army Field Band said I
Speaker 3: had till October to enlist, you know, and I graduated
Speaker 3: in June and July I got my draft papers, so
Speaker 3: I just you know, they said, I just enlisted before
Speaker 3: I was supposed to report for the draft and avoided,
Speaker 3: you know, going to Vietnam.
Speaker 1: Now, modern music, contemporary music for you when you want
Speaker 1: to lay down and just sit back and you know,
Speaker 1: stare at the rainstorm. What's the music that comforts you.
Speaker 1: What's the music you enjoy.
Speaker 3: I used to like to put on Stevie Wonder songs
Speaker 3: in the Kia Life, Little Feet, Leon Russell, you know,
Speaker 3: Delaney and Bonnie Ray, Charles.
Speaker 1: I'm like, give me Nat King Cole.
Speaker 3: Oh, Nat King Cole. Well, I love Nat King Call.
Speaker 3: I love Louis Armstrong. I listened to a lot of
Speaker 3: the old things. Man. They mean a lot to me.
Speaker 3: And they always they always get me. They always get me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they always get you. Well, listen, let me just
Speaker 1: say this to you. I want to say thank you.
Speaker 1: You are so humble, You are so you have so
Speaker 1: much humility, and you go online and you read about you.
Speaker 1: My god, everybody you got all these guys who are
Speaker 1: like drum freaks. And music and they're going. Now, let
Speaker 1: me show you this thing that Steve Gadd did and
Speaker 1: you would never know it from how sweet and how
Speaker 1: kind you've been in this interview. I'm very grateful to you.
Speaker 3: Well, I was excited to do this, man, thanks for
Speaker 3: having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: My thanks to Steve Gadd and Larry. I'll leave you
Speaker 1: with a little more of Larry Carlton's brilliance on Steely
Speaker 1: Dan's Don't Take Me Alive. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the
Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio imp Sun.
Speaker 1: I don't want no where. Cross my old man Bacon agone.
Speaker 1: Don't take me alive. I can hold down here all.
Speaker 4: Yes, I cross my own man on.
Speaker 2: Don't take me alive, don't
Speaker 1: Pay me alive.