1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know front House Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Getting across from me as always is Charles W. Chuck Bryant. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: And that makes this say you again, howdy, this is 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Let jump the gun there. That's okay, awkward, 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: I was talking a little fast. It's a little weird. 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: How's it going, It's going good, good. This is a 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: long awaited podcast. It is. We've been putting this off 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: for like a year at least, maybe even two or so. Um. 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: There is a guy, um who we need to give 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: a huge shout out to. His name is Will Sovey. 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Is that who wrote us? Initially? Yeah, initially. He is 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: a clinician who studies PTSD, started out at Walter Read Hospital. 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: From the hospital. Basically he's like right there on the 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: front lines, not just treating, but like learning about PTSD 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: and uh no, no, only do we have to thank 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: Will for Basically we handed him this document, this article 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: and said, hey, how up to date is this? And 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: he sent back this great like annotated copy with all 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: this new stuff and basically said this is don't say this, 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: don't be stupid. That kind of stuff. Um, so we 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: have to thank not only Will, but we have to 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: thank his wife, Meg, who was the one who originally 24 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: turned Will onto stuff. You should know. So without Meg, 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: we would have no Will, and without Will, we would 26 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: probably have a grossly out of date and laughable PTSD 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: article to work from that would have haunted us. We 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: probably would have released a podcast and just pissed us off. 29 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: Still exactly. Yeah, So you have now taken his information 30 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: and redid your original article and now we are pretty 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: much up to date. Yeah, and I need to go 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: onto the site and like update the actual article, which 33 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: is harder than the rounds, you know, but to just 34 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: listen to this podcast for the time being, Okay, uh, 35 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: And this is really good timing, Chuck, because I found 36 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: out after we decided to do that, June is PTSD 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: awareness month. Yeah, and specifically June is PTSD Awareness Day. 38 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 1: So if you have a friend or a loved winn 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: or a coworker who suffers from post traumatic stress disorder, 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: be extranized to him on jun So we're talking about PTSD, 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: which is of course um abbreviation for post traumatic stress disorder, 42 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: and um, it's not a new disorder. I don't I 43 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: can't imagine like when it really first came about, although 44 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: it was first described in the Civil War. My guess 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: is that it came about the first time people started 46 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: encountering big time stresses, traumatic events. Yeah, they just didn't 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: know what the heck they call it exactly, you know. Um, 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: But it wasn't I guess until about the Civil War 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: that we saw casualties on such a colossal level that somebody, 50 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: a doctor named Jacob Mendi's Da Costa um described what 51 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: he called soldier's Heart. Yeah, before that, they were just like, 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: what's wrong with Goody Johnson? Exactly? It's just always freaking 53 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: out whenever, like he hears us play this song, right, well, 54 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: Goody short for good wife, So there's there's a lot 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: going on with Goody Johnson. Um that he she um, 56 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: So Da Costa is he he calls his things soldier heart, 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: soldier's heart, and it basically is like you you seem 58 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: to have some sort of heart failures techniccardia. Um, You're 59 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: you're very much stressed out. And Da Costa said, this 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: is probably a result of some sort of uh trauma 61 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: from the war. Right, But they initially, like you said, 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: thought it was cardiac based, because I'm sure dudes were like, 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, my heart's racing exactly, you know, I'm freaking 64 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: out right, it's your heart. Then it can't possibly have 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: anything to do with your mind, which we know pretty 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: much nothing about. Right. That came about during World War 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: One when it was famously called shell shock. Charles Myers 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifteen described it as and he was actually 69 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: onto something here that it could have been a resulting 70 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: from pressure from you know, artillery shells exploding nearby, and 71 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: how it affects the brain, like physically affected the brain, right, 72 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: And that's actually what he's talking about. Is called today 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: mild traumatic brain injury, yeah, which is UM with the 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: symptoms of which kind of overlap with PTSD. Yeah. I 75 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: think we covered that in Concussion. Some didn't we I 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: think we probably did too, because you know, some NFL 77 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: guys are, uh, former NFL players are like committing suicide 78 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: now here and there. Probably the same thing that was 79 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: an interesting episode was in the shell shock Yeah, so yeah, 80 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: so um, Charles Myers describes mild traumatic brain injuries and 81 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: calls them shell shock. So if you just go slightly 82 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: further afield and and um and kind of get a 83 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: little more into the psychology behind it, you arrive finally 84 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: at PTSD, the modern diagnosis of which first came about 85 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: in nine teen eight. Yeah, thanks to UM they really 86 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: started doing a lot of studying post Vietnam and UH 87 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen eight three, Uh, they did a case study 88 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: that really just like opened up a wealth of information 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: to kind of get the ball rolling. And since then 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: we studied a lot, and we continue to because we're 91 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: still not exactly sure the best way to treat it. Uh. 92 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: And we've learned many many things since nineteen eighty about it, like, oh, well, 93 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: there's the part of the brain that stores memories of 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: fearful incidents. I think that's a venturo medial prefrontal cortex. 95 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: The size of that can have an effect on whether 96 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: or not you're at risk for PTSD. Some folks are 97 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: more prone than others. Uh. We'll get to all this 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: and more detail, of course, UM, Like women may not 99 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: get out as much then as men. Uh, how how 100 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: much danger you perceived yourself to be in, how intense 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: the danger was, how long the danger went on for 102 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: All of those are contributing factor to the development of PTSD. Yeah, 103 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: and it's and like you said, perception is the key 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: because it's your perceived reaction to it. It's not necessarily 105 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: the guy next to you might not have had any reaction, 106 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, and gone through the same incident. Maybe two 107 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: people are in the same car accident, one person can 108 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: have that one person might not right, and it can 109 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: be that can be exclusively based on the perception of 110 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: the event. Yeah, um, you were saying, we're still learning 111 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: about it. It's true. We don't have even numbers on 112 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: the number of people with PTSD. That's shocking. I think 113 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: the v Yeah, I think the v A estimated UM 114 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: as many as eight hundred thousand veterans alone have PTSD. Well, 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: I think. I say it's shocking, but it is. It 116 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: can also be confused with things like depression and just 117 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: generalized anxiety, So it's very specific PTSD, So I sort 118 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: of get that right. But it has a huge effect 119 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: on people like depression and anxiety disorders in general. Do UM. 120 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: PTSD specifically is known to um increase unemployment, failed marriages, 121 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: domestic violence, and homelessness. In suicion, Yeah, suicide is a 122 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: big one too. Um, we have no idea how many 123 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: PTSD suffers commit suicide. But in two ten, I believe 124 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: Chuck UM twenty two veterans a day active and UM 125 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: former military a day twenty two we're committing suicide. And 126 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: I believe to two thousand ten not all of those 127 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: are necessarily PTSD related. But once we have a better 128 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: idea of how many people have PTSD, how many people 129 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: who have PTSD commit suicide, I have a feeling the 130 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: numbers are just gonna get bigger and bigger. I think 131 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: you're right, because we're still I mean, we're only like 132 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: a few generations removed from the concept of shell shock, 133 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, and then even more from soldier's heart and 134 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: even more from what's wrong with Diddy Johnson were in 135 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: the lake swims? Okay, so I guess let's get on 136 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: the brass tacks. UM. Simply defined, it is a set 137 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: of symptoms that result from a trauma. UM. We hear 138 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: about a lot in military, obviously because they experience very 139 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: intense trauma more than most folks do. But it can 140 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: come about from accident, an assault, UM, natural disaster, anything 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: that you perceive as traumatic. It can come about. Yeah, 142 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: it can. It can the death of a loved one. 143 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't even necessarily have to be ama a trauma 144 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: that happens directly to you. It can indirectly affect you, 145 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: and you can still develop PTSD from it. Um. But 146 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: the thing is that there's uh, if if somebody experiences 147 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: a trauma, I'm not going to develop PTSD. They normally 148 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: shake it off. Right. There's actually some some criteria for 149 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 1: an actual PTSD diagnosis. UM, So you have to the 150 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: symptoms basically have to present themselves over a certain period 151 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: of time for certain length of time, and certain symptoms 152 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: have to appear in the cornerstone of what's called the 153 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: symptom cluster of PTSD. All the symptoms you put together 154 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: to form a diagnosis. The cornerstone of those is re experience. Yeah, 155 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: and some of that can happen. But the thing I 156 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: kept coming across in these studies is what they called 157 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: excessive retrieval. So just like you know, it's one thing 158 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: to get an accident and be a little weird next 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: time you drive in the rain, or more careful or whatever, 160 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: but excessive retrieval means that it's like consuming your life. Nightmares, 161 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: day terrors, I mean, you name it, like a song 162 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: can spark it and you're just re experienced this thing 163 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: over and over in your mind. Yeah, And it doesn't 164 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: even necessarily have to be from something like a song 165 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: like the song that was playing on the radio when 166 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: your car you crashed your car um to trigger. It 167 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: can just come without any apparent trigger whatsoever. And the 168 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: big problem with this is not just like, oh man, 169 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: that was such a bummer that that happened to me. 170 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: It's your brain is remembering this in such a way 171 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: that the the same chemical cascade takes place as it 172 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: did when you were initially going through it. So for 173 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: all intents and purposes, at that moment, you're fully going 174 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: through that same experience again. And this happens again and 175 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: again and again and again. And that's the re experience 176 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: of the trauma. And that's the cornerstone symptom of PTSD. Yeah, 177 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: that's what of UH, one of what they call symptom clusters, 178 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: one of four. The other three are avoidance, which is 179 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: obviously speaks for itself. You're gonna avoid thinking about it. 180 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: Avoid you know, let's say you're in the military, might 181 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: not go to Fourth of July celebrations or other places 182 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: where they're big booms, um, numbness um. Doing anything you 183 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: can to numb it withdrawing alcohol and drugs. Yeah, that 184 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: can be a big problem with PTSD, going into it 185 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: and afterward, right right, And if you already had a 186 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: Drugger alcohol problem and you you develop PTSD, that can 187 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: be a really hard thing to treat and separate. And 188 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: the last one there is hyper arousal, which basically UM, 189 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: when you see movies, they'll portray this way movies A 190 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: lot is a soldier that's just jumpy and irritable and 191 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: I can't sleep. They feel unsafe, sort of paranoid, always 192 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: on guard. It's like your fight or flight response is 193 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: always on and it's gonna be exhausting. Yeah. Well, we 194 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: talked about like you can die from that kind of thing, 195 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: from prolonged stress, heightened stress, like it depletes your immune system, 196 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: and um, you can die as a result. And that's 197 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: one of the hallmarks of PTSD is you're just constantly 198 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: on guard. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine how tired you 199 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: must be. Plus you can't sleep on top of that, exactly. Yeah, 200 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: So it's a pretty awful condition to to have. UM. 201 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: And uh, one of the one of the criteria for 202 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: diagnosing this is that it's it's not short this can 203 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: go on a very long time. Um, there's three three 204 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: different types. There's acute, which is um acute PTSD the 205 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: symptoms come on uh and last about three months, right, Yeah, 206 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: it has to to be PFC. It has to go 207 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: beyond the one month period right after that. It's kind 208 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: of most people, I guess shake off a trauma within 209 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: a within a month. Yeah, if it keeps going on 210 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: after that, then you're in PTSD territory. If at lasts 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: three months, that was a cute PTSD, and you probably 212 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: should consider yourself lucky that that's all it was. Yeah, 213 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: that's true. You could also develop chronic PTSD UM where 214 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: the symptoms last more than three months and possibly a lifetime. UM. 215 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: And then there's delayed onset where the symptoms don't show 216 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: up for at least six months. And then I guess 217 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: it could be acute delayed on set or chronic delayed 218 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: on set. Yeah. And you point out here that kids 219 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: can get it too. It's not you know, we talk 220 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: about adults oftentimes, but uh, kids can present differently. Um. 221 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: You know, really poor behavior, really needy behavior, drawing things out. 222 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: And that's something you always see in movies too, Like 223 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: the kid drawing the plane car right and stuff like um, 224 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: or acting it out with dolls. That's another one too. 225 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: But as they grow up, they become a little more 226 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: just regular adult symptoms if they haven't you know, gotten 227 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: over by then, which is super sad. Yeah. So for 228 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: a very long time, Chuck researchers thought that everyone is 229 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: at equal risk of developing PTSD after going through trauma. 230 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: But they found, UM, I guess from studying really hardcore 231 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: since that Vietnam study, UM that there's actually risk factors 232 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: and protective factors that can keep people from developing PTSD 233 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: or can make you more likely to develop PTSD. Yeah. 234 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: One of the big ones is, um, if you've already 235 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: experienced a prior trauma, Yeah, because um, it's additive. So 236 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: it can actually mount up these things over the years, 237 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: and then there could be one final trauma that finally 238 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: triggers the PTSD. And you're more likely too if you've 239 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: experienced these things exactly. And you were saying, like, the 240 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: military's at greater risk than the average person because there 241 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: they are experienced a prolonged, intense trauma, and um, it 242 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: seems to me that PTSD is moving very quickly toward 243 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: it almost entirely brain based model UM. And one of 244 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: the reasons why is it finding like all these chemicals 245 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: and and UM genetic markers that are responsible for different aspects, 246 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: and it's like this clear pictures emerging. One of the 247 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: big ones is a gluco corticoid. Yeah, that's right, I 248 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: got it. It's a class of brain hormones and they 249 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: help control our stress response. So we were talking about 250 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: how UM, if you experience one trauma, you you're gluco 251 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: corticoid UM levels are depleted, because it's like, come on, 252 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: let's just hang in there. We'll hang in there if 253 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: you get another. If you experience another trauma and those 254 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: hormones are depleted already, then you're going to experience the 255 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: fear and stress of that far more acutely then you 256 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: would have had your glucocorticoid levels been normal. Yeah, that's 257 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: why it's compounding and additive. Well, and they also have 258 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: found that UM cortisol, which is a glucocorticoid, Elevated levels 259 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: of this can affect your memory in a negative way, 260 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: which can be positive if you have PTSD. So they 261 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: did a study in two thousand eight three month blind 262 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: double blind placebo controlled study, our favorite kind that sounds 263 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: like a real deal, where they gave these three soldiers 264 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: low low doses of cortisol or hydrocortisone, and um, they 265 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: found significant effects with no side effects and even evidence 266 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: of prolonged effect. So, um, I know later on in 267 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: the article you talk about one of the things they're 268 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: doing now is injecting people with hydrocortisone and like the 269 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: er Yeah, like immediately after an event, and it's it's 270 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: basically shown to decrease your memory, like you just don't 271 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: remember that stuff as well. Yeah, and it lowers the 272 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: stress response. I mean think about this, you're you're the 273 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: stress response is part of your immune system right where 274 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: it's at least connected in some really close way. Hydrocortizone 275 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: is like an anti dampens your immune response, So they 276 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: think that PTSD is like maybe a heightened stress response 277 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: or a heightened immune system response, and just giving somebody 278 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: like a regular shot of hydrocortizone, it's it's working. Yeah, 279 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: it's so weird. Well, because as to do with memory, 280 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: if you're if you're decreasing your ability to remember something, 281 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: you're going to increase the likelihood that you won't suffer 282 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: from bad memories, you know. Um, so some other risk 283 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: factors and protective factors. Uh, like what type of personality 284 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: you have factors? And this makes sense. If you're an 285 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: optimistic type, you're probably going to be less likely to 286 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: suffer PTSD. Yeah, you haven't here belief that there's order 287 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: to the umerg Does that is that specific to like 288 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: a belief in God. I think that that's one of 289 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: the accepted definitions of optimism or the optimistic personality. It's 290 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: interesting somebody who believes, yeah, not that it's not chaotic, 291 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: that there's reasons for things. Things happen for a reason. 292 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: So I wonder if an atheist is more likely to 293 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: get PTSD. I could see that interesting. Um, But it's 294 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: also that other people are generally good is another It's 295 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: like the second part of that definition. Uh, if you 296 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: are someone who tackles things head on and don't put 297 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: your problems on the back burners, obviously this is gonna wait. 298 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: If you're not putting it on the backburner, that means 299 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: you're going to have a less likelihood. Yeah, I got 300 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: all confused there. Yeah, because avoidance is one of the deal. 301 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: And if you have problem avoidance behavior avoidance behavior UM, 302 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: or you just like don't like to talk about problems 303 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: or don't like to think about things, You just rather 304 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: just kind of push it. It's probably true for any 305 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: mental disorder. If you're not prone to tackle it head on, 306 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: then it's just gonna get worse. Yeah, you know, yeah, 307 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: well that's one of the things about PTSD is like 308 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: your memories become exaggerated and bloated and way worse even 309 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: than the actual experience. If you are college graduate or 310 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: maybe even just went to college, then um, you're gonna 311 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: be less likely to have it. And we also pointed 312 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: out earlier that women are less likely to experience it 313 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: than men. Yeah, they're not entirely certain why. I don't know, 314 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: but that's strictly from the Vietnam study. I think, um, 315 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: it was something like thirty six percent of Vietnam veterans 316 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: who experienced hardcore combat. I don't know if that's the 317 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: term that you use, but you know what, I'm sorry 318 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: to work combat. Yeah, thirty six percent of males in 319 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: that situation had PTSD and eighteen percent of females did. 320 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: So what that's like twice as likely if you're male, 321 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: then a female UM. They think genes may have something 322 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: to do with it. They're looking to a gene called 323 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: the serotonin transporter gene. And there is a paper out 324 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: there that indicates that if you have a mutated gene 325 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: serotonin transporter gene, than it could impact your attention to 326 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: environmental threats, which could impact whether or not you get 327 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: PSD PTSD. Geez. So you remember we did that episode 328 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: Can my grandfather's diet shortened my life? About epigenetics? Well, 329 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: epigenetics possibly factor into UM PTSD as well. So epigenetics 330 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: is basically where the function of a gene is um 331 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: affected within somebody's lifetime changes basically right, So it's like 332 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: evolution on the basis of years rather than you know, 333 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: generations and generations UM. And there was a study in 334 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: Detroit of a hundred people who fit the criteria for 335 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: PTSD diagnoses, and they found that they had six or 336 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: seven times the epigenetic changes of the control group, and 337 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: that a lot of those epigenetic changes, most of them 338 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: UM had to do with genes that that were responsible 339 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: for keeping up the immune system. Interesting, did they factor 340 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: in the fact that they've lived in Detroit? Well, that 341 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: was funny. I guess, in some horribly dark comic goal 342 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: way is that the researchers were from New York City 343 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: and they traveled to Detroit to find a hundred people 344 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: with PTSD. I'm sure they could have found that New York. 345 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: I guess they cast their lot in Detroit for some reason. 346 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: We love Detroit. By the way, We've been getting a 347 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: lot more emails lately because I think people pick up 348 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: newly and hear us dashing Detroit and they don't realize 349 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: it's been a running joke now for five years, as 350 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: almost six years. We love Detroit. Who doesn't exactly um. 351 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: And then, of course, the most important factor with this 352 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: or any other mental disorder is what they called a 353 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: trauma membrane, which is that support network your friends and 354 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: your family if you've got a strong one, and it's 355 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: a strong one in the right way. Like you point out, 356 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: they can be well meaning, but the person receiving that 357 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: membrane and that protection it has to do do right 358 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: by them. Yeah, and then they can't just be like, well, 359 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, just just on the bright side, you know, 360 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: don't worry about that. Like, however, you're you're experiencing this 361 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: and getting over it. You're doing it wrong. Do it 362 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: this way. That's not gonna help, right. But basically the 363 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: point is if you are single alcoholic veteran that is 364 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: a loner living by yourself, it doesn't like to think 365 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: about your problem. Yeah, and like your tiny little apartment. 366 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: Then that's like the worst case scenario for PTSD. Yes. Yeah, 367 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: Like we said, the military is at a greater UM 368 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: risk just from being exposed to these situations and being 369 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: exposed to him over and over and over again. UM. 370 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: And but one of the other reasons that the military, 371 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: especially the military of late UM is at risk is 372 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: be because brain injuries where the quote signature wound of 373 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: the Iraq War I don't remember thanks to UM roadside 374 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: bombs I e. D. S UM, there are a significant 375 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: amount of head injuries. Are treatment of head injuries advanced 376 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: enough so that we could save lives where they wouldn't 377 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: have been before, Like people were exposed to head injuries 378 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: like in countless other wars. But now we've gotten to 379 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: the point where we can save those people's lives. The 380 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: problem is that their brains are changed. They've undergone what 381 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: Charles Myers called shell shock mild traumatic brain injury, which 382 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: again is almost indistinguishable and possibly one and the same 383 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: in some cases as PTSD. Yeah, and imagine the uncertainty 384 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: of guerrilla warfare and things like roadside bombs. Um, Like, 385 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: you can be prepped somewhat for for battle and we'll 386 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: get to that here in a little bit. What they're 387 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: trying to do the more and more of these days 388 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: with that, but with these guerrilla tactics that are going 389 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 1: on in the Middle East, with with suicide bombers and 390 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: car bombs and things like that, it's like kind of 391 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: the perfect prescription for eventual ps PTSD. Yeah. I'm trying 392 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: to trick to take the trauma out of it. Yeah. 393 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: Um yeah, we mentioned earlier, remember the optimistic personalities less 394 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: likely in the optimist believes in order in the universe. Well, 395 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: guerrilla warfare is like the opposite of order in the universe. 396 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: Are you starting to see like this pattern, Like all 397 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: this stuff is on the table. Yeah, it's just now 398 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: a matter of connecting it. And it seems like neurology 399 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: is going to be the field that does that, I think, so, 400 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, so counseling obviously is step one. Um, and 401 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: this goes down in a couple of ways. The old 402 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: favorite cognitive behavioral counseling, which we talked about quite a bit, 403 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: which apparently I'm told by will Savey is not really 404 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: called that. It's cognitive processing therapy. I think he said, 405 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: I haven't really I've seen it call that, but okay 406 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: in his note, so we'll stick with the cognitive processing therapy. Well. 407 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: A couple of the aims there um are to basically 408 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: limit the amount of that excessive retrieval to sometimes it's like, hey, um, 409 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: every day for like from from nine to nine thirty, 410 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: you can think about this in a healthier way and 411 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: then you put it away for the day. So that's 412 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: one way they can do it. Yeah. Another way is 413 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: to just lessen the um, lessen the memories impact on 414 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: like how bad it was, maybe by pointing out some 415 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: of the good things, like what about the valorie you 416 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: showed during battle right by saving your buddy's life. He 417 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: died and you watched him die, but you also tried 418 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: to drag him his safety. So you tried, and that 419 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: you put yourself at risk and you really need to 420 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: commend yourself for that. Like carry that around too, it's 421 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: gonna balance out the horrible nous. So not like you 422 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: need to forget all this, but you need to bring 423 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: it back to an acceptable level where you can live 424 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: your life exactly. And one of the reasons are one 425 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: of the reasons it's not an unacceptable levels because this 426 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: memory has become so grossly exaggerated through the process of 427 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: this um this I guess memory retrieval, fearful memory retrieval, 428 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. Like I think most 429 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: memories are enhanced or bad, you know, like you remember 430 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: like that prom in high school is way better than 431 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: it really was, or that breakup that you suffered was 432 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: really actually those usually get better with time. But you 433 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, right, Yeah, But I think, Chuck, 434 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: imagine that while you were see when whenever you retrieve 435 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: a memory, you're adding to it. That's how like sense 436 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: go from you know what you initially thought of, what 437 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: you know ten years after smelling the thing, you think 438 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: of the same thing with fearful memory retrieval. But when 439 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: your memory is being retrieved and your life is in 440 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: the gutter and you're addicted to drugs and you're scared 441 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: out of your mind, and then you compound that under 442 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: the original memory over and over again, then it's just 443 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: gonna get worse and worse and more and more exaggerated. 444 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, one of the one of the or the 445 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: point of cognitive processing therapy is cognitive restructuring, like literally 446 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: reordering the brain by taking that memory head on and 447 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, like this didn't really happen like this, 448 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: and you're not paying enough attention to that, right. Another 449 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: type of therapy that is not is fun, although I 450 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: don't know if the other is actually fun, but exposure 451 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: therapy it's pretty hardcore. It's like to pull your knees 452 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: up to your chest and just rock back and forth 453 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: kind of therapy. Yeah. I mean it's basically to relive 454 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: it over and over and over um in great detail, 455 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: sometimes taking you to the actual place that it took place, um, 456 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: with the idea that eventually that fear extinction will happen 457 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: and you'll get over it. Right. Well, remember you were saying, like, um, 458 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: the song that was playing on the radio when when 459 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: you got in a car, right, they'd like to play that. Well, 460 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: welcome to hearing that song over and over and over again. 461 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't again, when you're retrieving that memory in a 462 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: certain context and bad things aren't happening, and there's somebody 463 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: reassuring you saying like, look, you're okay, Like everything's okay. 464 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: Then you're relearning that memory again without the fear associated 465 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: with it, but you have to go through hell to 466 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: get there. Yeah, And it also stops avoidance in its tracks, 467 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: which is you know, if you if you're avoiding something. 468 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: The complete opposite of that is immersion therapy like that. 469 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: And then what they're finding is the best the best 470 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: results they are coming from a combination of therapy UH 471 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: and medication of course, because it helps to not be 472 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: freaked out of your mind when you're having to go 473 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: through exposure therapy and removing it. And a class of 474 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: drugs that helps with that. Our SSR eyes, our old 475 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: friend SSR eyes UM the two approved by the h 476 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: U S Food and Drug Administration or Zoloft and Paxel, 477 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: and those are actually the only two drugs approved by 478 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: the FDA to treat PTSD on label, not just the 479 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: only two SSR eyes, so use those with your therapy. UH. 480 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: They also have something called d clike co serine and 481 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: UM that is actually is that the one that's a 482 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: anti tuberculosis drug, and they found that it also helps 483 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: with PTSD. Yeah, they they noticed that, like it UM 484 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: cut down on fear by basically it agonizes your N 485 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: methyl d aspirtit receptors in m d A. Yes, now, 486 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: the and that enhances learning. So if you're going through 487 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: exposure therapy, you got a little um zolof going to 488 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: keep you calm and chilled out and able to go 489 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: through therapy, and you're taking dcs at the same time 490 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: to make you learn faster. UM, then that would probably 491 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: be a a good treatment for PTSD for some people. Yeah. 492 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: Beta blockers like uh, prop pen and all that's have 493 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: been long known to decrease stress levels. Yeah, and kill 494 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson really is that what he was on? That 495 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: was the one his milk he called it. Oh he 496 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: had like the drip going yeah, yeah, I think that's 497 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: a little different than like described the pill. But this 498 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: is this UM. This drug specifically goes in there and 499 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: basically like m disconnects neurons so that there you don't 500 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: have that memory any longer. I read a paper once 501 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: on im using this drug to treat PTSD, and like 502 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: this guy was like, this is so effective that you're 503 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: basically rewriting history. It's like transhuman. It's it has like 504 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: that level of impact on some people. Interesting. Well, we 505 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier the Army UM preparing soldiers for battle. Uh, 506 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: it is not just happening in a physical training way, 507 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: like learn how to shoot guns and do things like that. 508 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: Now it's happening very much on the mental level. Uh. 509 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: It was formerly called battle mind anymore, so that that 510 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: surprised me that they changed it. When was it from? 511 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: That was from Walter Reed Hospital too? Yeah, exactly. Now 512 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: they call it resilience training. That's way better exactly, and 513 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: it it actually didn't even start out as something to 514 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: help with PTSD, but they're learning that it can help. UM. 515 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: It's basically this, they handle the seven phases of deployment mentally. 516 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: They prepare you mentally for the seven phases like predeployment, deployment, 517 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: post deployment, redeployment, UM and everything from Hey, when you're 518 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: out of the Army or the Marine Corps and you're 519 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: driving your car around, you can't drive like you're angry 520 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: and like you were over there. If someone addresses you 521 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: in an aggressive manner, you can't handle it like you 522 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: did when you were in battle. Um, you didn't have 523 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: alcohol over there. Now you're back home, there's booze everywhere. 524 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: You can't go crazy with that stuff. And so all 525 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: of that put together they figured out ends up helping 526 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: out UM with PTSD, like rely on your family, they're 527 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: trying to encourage stuff like this, right. Well, also they 528 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: think it works because they're using it ahead of time, 529 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 1: like predeployment as part of training as well. So I 530 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: think like being exposed to horrors ahead of time, we'll 531 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: kind of keep you from going through I guess as 532 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: much of a trauma when you see it the real 533 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: thing a month later. Whatever. Yeah, what's interesting, Chuck, is 534 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: the Iroquois um had something like this. Yeah, after like 535 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: going and going to war, they were basically sequestered from 536 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: everybody else after they came back and we're assimilated. Yeah, exactly, 537 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: there's like a step down cooling period. Wow that the 538 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: Iroquois used because they would go totally insane while they 539 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: were in battle. Right, that makes sense where they won't 540 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: go berserk, know, the Vikings want berserker. Yeah, but I 541 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: think I think that you're equid took. Okay, So we're 542 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: talking about neurology being the key to this one chemical 543 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: that they have been studying is called Staffman Jason Staffman, 544 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: and that basically allows us to form fear memories from 545 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: our experience. So they're obviously working with this and mice 546 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: finding that lower levels of that are gonna decrease our 547 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: fear memories or our ability to form them at least. 548 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: So that's pretty you know, they're viding us on a 549 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: lot of fronts. Yeah, well, they're doing a lot of 550 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: research and you just need to put it together. What 551 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: else gastrin releasing peptide. Yes, they found that. Um. Apparently 552 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: this this chemical like signals the brain like calm down, 553 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: calm down, and um, if you have uh not enough 554 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: of it, you have an increased chance that you're going 555 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: to become fearful. Right. Um, so that's another one, uh 556 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: narrow peptide. Why we what do we talk about that in? 557 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I we definitely talked about it. It's 558 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: it's basically our own bodies anti anxiety drug and um. 559 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: The levels of this are going to fluctuate depending on 560 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: what kind of stresses and traumas we've been through. And 561 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: once again, if that one's depleted, UM, then you're gonna 562 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: be less prone to overcome obstacles. Mentally. Yeah, they're actually 563 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out how to synthesize it. So 564 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: if it's as simple as like injecting some narrow peptide 565 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: wine into somebody's brain following a trauma, just to get 566 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: that a little extra boost, so you can, you know, 567 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: take this on and process it and shake it off. 568 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: I guess ecstasy. That's another one. M d N A, 569 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: m d M A. Uh. Not surprisingly when they have 570 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: treated people with PTSD, they felt better. Yeah, but it 571 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: was long lasting though, right? Was that the mushrooms? I 572 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: know we studied h that hallucogen mushrooms. Yeah, I don't 573 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: remember which one went back more more easily. Yeah, I 574 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: can't remember either. But there was a guy in that study, 575 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: the m d M A study who was like suicidal 576 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: for three years or two years. Oh no, that was 577 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: something different. The stelic Ganglian block. It's like in an 578 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: inoculation of just a local anesthetic, right, but just above 579 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: the clavical so it interrupts the the nerve transmissions of 580 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: your sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight response. Yeah, 581 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: so it physically blocks it. Yeah, and it works apparently, 582 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: and it can last. There was one guy in that 583 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: study who was suicidal for um two years, and he 584 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: felt immediate relief. Yeah, the ecstasy. I think you said 585 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: that some people that experienced relief had never experienced relief 586 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: with therapy or any other drugs. So it's pretty interesting. 587 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: And then our old friend, the thinking cap, the transcranial 588 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: magnetic stimulator. UM. I don't know if that's what they 589 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: call it, is it? Yeah? Okay, Um, it's better than 590 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: a thinking cap. Yeah, that's true. They did a study 591 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: in two thousand four or twenty four male and female 592 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: patients suffering from PTSD and UM, they hooked up, you know, 593 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: the magnets to the head, stimulated blood flow to the brain, 594 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: and they found out that it had a nice effect 595 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: for the for the people. Yeah. Yeah, they think it 596 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: increased metabolism or something like that. Man, I think it's 597 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: a complicated thing, so it takes a complicated cure, you know, 598 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: because it's not just like, well it's this one thing. 599 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: It's like all over the brain and its emotions and 600 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: it's like fear and memory. It's just it's crazy, well yeah, 601 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: crazy and undo a memory the way that somebody formed it. Yeah, 602 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: it's pretty interesting stuff. So thank you very much to 603 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: Will Sovey for his help on that. And remember it's 604 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: PTSD awareness month, so we hope we've made you a 605 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: little more aware. Um and uh yeah, I'm very interested 606 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: to see how the research pans out. Yeah, me too. 607 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: It's SEMs like they made a lot of headway in 608 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: recent years. Um. If you want to learn more about PTSD, 609 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,439 Speaker 1: you can go type those letters into the search bart 610 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: house to first dot com. It'll bring up the old 611 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 1: version of the article, but I'll work to get it updated. Okay, okay. 612 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: And since I said updated, it means it's time for 613 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: is it time for message break? Oh yeah, now listening man, Yes, okay, uh, 614 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: this is I'm gonna do a couple of DND emails 615 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: over the next a couple of weeks because we did 616 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: a podcast and Dungeon and Dragons. Boy, people loved it. 617 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: They did. That was a good one. Good feedback even 618 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: uh like the uber nerds were like, you guys did 619 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: a great job. Yeah, there are a couple who are 620 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: just like us, but for the most part, people liked it. Well. 621 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: This is from Christina and she was very nice. She 622 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: is from Cleveland. And that is Christina with a K 623 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: and Y and she says, guys, I love your show. 624 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm Christina from Cleveland. I'm writing about the recent D 625 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: and D podcast because it reminded me of something that 626 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: happened recently. Both of my parents are huge nerds and 627 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: as a result had awesome nerd gaming daughters that as 628 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: me and my sister. Of course, Anyway, when they were dating, 629 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: my mom and my dad and my dad's four best friends, 630 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: my uncle's Bill, Larry, Calvin, and Carlton would get together 631 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: on weekends lay D and D all weekend long. Recently, 632 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: when Uncle Carlton was in town, he brought his old 633 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: reel to real taper quarter player and a bunch of 634 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: recordings of their D and D weekend sessions from the 635 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: mid eighties. That's awesome. It's like Brian posing now. Uh. 636 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: It was a hilarious trip in the time machine and 637 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: every session had its own unique quavor. Anytime they were 638 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: at Carlton's house, you'd hear jazz playing in the background, 639 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: for example, and they always say Larry was a god 640 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: among men as dungeon master. It was a ton of 641 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: fun listening to my young dad and his buddies and 642 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: their girlfriends and wives, joking, drinking, even a little toking 643 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: ha ha, oh my god and talking crap to each 644 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: other while they played the one story that they always 645 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: tell us when Carlton brought a friend who was new 646 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: to the group and loaned him a super awesome leveled 647 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: up acts since he knew he didn't have anything good 648 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: starting out. When the friend wouldn't return it, Uncle Carlton 649 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: killed his buddy's character, got his ax back, and they 650 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: continued on. Thanks for everything, Christina, that's pretty awesome. That's 651 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: a great dnd SOT. I would love to hear those takes. 652 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: Thanks Christina. Yeah. Really, Um, you know Brian Poston is 653 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: doing this this podcast, uh where he plays Dungeons and 654 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: Dragons with some friends and they just recorded same things. 655 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: He releases it as a podcast. I'll have to hear that. Yeah, 656 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I love that, guys. Um. Well, if you want to 657 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 1: tell us a great story about your parents, we love 658 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: to hear those. Um. You can tweet to us at 659 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: s Y s K podcast. You can join us on 660 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash stuff you should know. UH. You 661 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: can send us some email to Stuff podcast at the 662 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. UH. And by the way, thanks for 663 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: the letter, Steama. I forgot to say that uh, And 664 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: as always, you can join us at our home on 665 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com for more 666 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 667 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Jack Herds has quickly become the 668 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: online shopping destination for guys. Here's why everything on the 669 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: site is up off As a listener of Stuff you 670 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: Should Know, you can skip the membership waitlist and get 671 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: instant access at jack threads dot com, slash kate and 672 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: ow stuff that's Jack threads dot com slash no Stuff