WEBVTT - McKelvey Suggests Regulation for Metaverse 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.760 Tim Stanovick and Carol Master live in the Bloomberg Interactive 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.200 Broker Studio in New York. Our next guest is a 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.719 familiar name to so many of our Bloomberg audience, although 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:12.520 it has been quite a while, Carrol since you and 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.520 I last spoke to him. Jim Mcalby is the co 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.680 founder of Square, also the founder and chairman of Invisibly. 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.239 It's a company that helps people manage their data. He 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.720 joins us now on the phone from St. Louis, Missouri, 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.280 and great to have Jim back with us. Jim, how 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:30.360 are you doing great? Vaccinated and happy? Cripple or double 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.159 Oh yeah, same with us. We're waiting for that third. Well. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.680 It's interesting. We have talked a lot with you about, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:39.680 you know, the use of data, and this is something 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.760 that you you know, it's front and center with you 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.240 when it comes to data collection, managing it, data protection. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.720 And I think it's a timely conversation to continue having 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.199 kind of always, but also in a week or so 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:55.400 that we're now talking about Facebook, it's name change and 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.200 it's focused on the metaverse. I've talked about the metaverse 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.279 more than I have in a long time. UM, that 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.959 to me says Jim, even more data collection. How do 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.160 you see it is? I'm just curious what meta stands for. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.680 I know, I know, but is this a good thing 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.480 or worse thing? Can regulators keep up with it? I 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.360 mean regulators are always going to follow behind popular trends. 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:20.880 I mean it happened with the automobile. You know, we 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.160 started building whatever we wanted, and eventually the gut got 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:24.720 involved and said, hey, look you need to put seat 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.760 belts on this thing. And the government you know, had 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.080 a big fight over whether we should have say seat 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:30.800 belts and say cars, and eventually we came to an 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.920 agreement that hey, look, airbags are good things. Um, I 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.839 think regulation is probably necessary. And it comes a little 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.200 bit later because you got to see what problem is 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:40.920 you're trying to regulate. You don't want to just start 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:44.960 regulating when there's nothing wrong. What about when it comes 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.080 to specifically the metaverse? I mean, what kind of regulations 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.440 could you foresee being necessary for the metaverse? I don't 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.040 know what the metaverse is. You're not the only one 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.320 speculate on that, not. You know, sort of the platforms 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.840 right now have a business model that is sort of 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:06.920 contrary to personal interests and basically on the platforms, uh, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.280 you're the product, and you get monetized in ways that 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.040 are to the platform's benefits and not necessarily to your benefit. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:15.960 And I'll give you the sort of the classic example, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.960 which is that if your measuring engagement and you say, well, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.639 the best thing we can do is keep our users engaged. Um, 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:24.800 and then you realize that one of the ways to 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.520 keep people engaged is to upset them, to feed them 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.200 news and messages that anger them so they get more 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.280 you know, engaged, but they're angry. That's probably bad for 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.400 the individual. Like I don't want to go around being angry, 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.600 but if Facebook wants to make me angry, they have 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.960 the power to do so because they basically control what 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:49.440 I see. That is disturbing and you know it makes 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.560 me angry, right exactly. Well it's interesting too, well and 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.880 I think, well exactly, But what's interesting right now is 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.200 right when we go to sites in something, we now 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.960 are able to say, Okay, here's the data I want 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:03.680 you to be able to have access to. Right, We're 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.440 getting a little bit more. Say it feels like, although 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.200 I'm never quite sure when I'm dealing with a digital world, 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.120 really how much say I ultimately really have but it 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.240 feels like we have a little bit more power. I 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.640 mean ultimately you really feel that way? Which way that yeah, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.640 that you have more power? Now? No? No, no, no, 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.240 I'm saying that like I'm questioning even though like I'm 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:26.760 being asked when I go to a site like how 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.240 much data and how do you want to? You know, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.239 I still feel like in a digital world, I feel 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.200 like there's just so much out there that we have 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.119 no control over. You really want in line enlightened incentive. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.520 So if the platform that is giving you that so 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.120 called power is really making day, is really making money 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.200 by manipulating you, then they're not going to give you 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.400 that power. What will typically happen is the government will say, well, 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.800 you have to give users this much control, and then 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.760 they'll data dump, you know, fifty screens of asky code 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.000 on you and say here, have fun with it. Go 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.040 you know, learn to write and binary and you're just 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.200 not going to be able as an individual to do that. 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.800 You need somebody who's essentially working on your behalf, and 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:10.720 right now we don't have that. We don't have a 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:17.920 uh an agent that represents you. Carol in the you know, uh, 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:23.280 into transactions like Tim's not represented. You know, I'm an agent, 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.960 but that's what you guys are working to do it invisibly. Correct. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.480 We're trying, I mean, we're we're we're experimenting with you know, 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:34.480 invisible digital agents that work on tiny, tiny amounts of currency, 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.640 like the tiny little transactions where you know, I'll buy 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.039 or sell your attention in a way that suits you, 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.920 and I'll do it in a way that totally is 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.000 not annoying you know. So in other words, I'm invisible 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.719 most of the time. But at the point where I 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.640 do something wrong and you notice that, you can call 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.320 me up and go, hey, you screw that negotiation up, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.120 don't do that again. You're like, don't don't sell my 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.480 kids data. But you're you're absolutely fair to trade on 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.960 my sexuality, you know, if you want to or don't 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.599 monize my sexuality. Um, but you can. You can trade 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.440 on my age and my demographics and all this other 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.840 Like you tell me what's fair game and then let 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.599 the agent sort of work on your behalf. What's interesting 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:18.200 is we're in an era and I'm thinking about the 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.679 data collection that's just going out. Well, certainly it's happening 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.080 in China, and they have incredible oversight of what they 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.680 can collect from their people. I think about the people 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.760 who have you know, tapped into twenty three and me 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.000 and giving away a lot of information. I mean, I 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.599 almost it's just a very weird, weird world where I 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.880 think people are still giving away so much and do 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.559 they realize the value of a jim. They certainly don't. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.240 And one of the things that we had real trouble 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.680 with it invisibly was figuring out ourselves what it was worth. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.080 And it just reminds me of the days when we 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.000 started Square, Like Jack and I had no idea where 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.520 the money was going. Took the better part of a 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:58.800 year to find it out, and that was in the 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.280 money business. You know, it's even worse than this data 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.640 world where you know, originally all partners that we had 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.440 were just misrepresenting their numbers by factors of ten. So 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.159 the numbers I was getting were just wildly inaccurate. And 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.080 and the problem is that there's so much slop in 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.039 the system that, um, you know, an AD could be 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.880 worth a penny, it could be worth twenty cents, it 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.760 could be worth you know, a fraction of a cent. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:26.640 You and you just don't know, so you have to 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.919 let these little markets determine what those prices are because 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.000 everyone's going to make up their own number, whatever number 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.440 suits them. So it's the wild West and we're just 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.479 trying to figure it out now. Jim, I want to 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.320 go right back to invisibly and try to understand exactly 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:42.360 how you're able to do this. I understand how you 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.839 can do this on behalf of a customer, a user 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.119 of the service, but what kind of cooperation you're buying 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.960 do you need from the side or the the app 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.479 or the platform that this is serving as an agent 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.160 of the user on behalf, Well, we need full permissions. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.640 So it's a totally permission system where users give us 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.120 access to the data and then we have to negotiate 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.600 with our content providers to get access to their content. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.640 So it's it's totally open. It's just done in tiny, 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.280 tiny increments, um, but we think it's possibly a remedy 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:16.920 to some of the problems we're seeing with the platforms. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.720 But look, very very early days. I don't want people 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.400 to run to invisibly dot com and say, oh my god, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.760 mclby solved that. No, no, no, we're still experimenting. Um, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.960 this is a lot of the stuff that I talked 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.720 about in the book, which is like I spent a 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.640 lot of time doing stuff that's never worked. And the 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.240 thing about stuff that's never worked before is that all 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:32.960 of a sudden it starts working and then you go, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.080 oh wow. But right now we're in the fits and starts. 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.840 We've got a product that's been pretty popular, but honestly, 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.400 it's going to get a lot better and we're still 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.720 very very early days. Well what is it in terms 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.440 of what you see on your platform and what people 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.600 may be in terms of the data that I guess 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.480 people are getting more comfortable with in terms of sharing 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.320 or they're not. I mean, you guys collect so much 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.760 data that we talked about it when we're going into 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.080 the elections that you were getting some great insight about 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:03.760 what was going on in the election. So I am 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.880 curious in your platform, Jim, what other insight you are 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.960 are getting access to. So it's it's the interesting Carrol's 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.280 what you just said before, which was before the break, 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.720 you said how scary it is how much information we 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.480 all shed on a daily basis, And it's true, and 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.800 we asked people explicitly for things like access to their 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.760 bank account information, access to their browser history. Would you 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.720 install a plug in? Would you do this stuff that 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:29.600 you know I thought, which could be you know, very 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.640 very invasive, And a high percentage of people are saying, 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.520 if you'll treat it well and and actually compensate me 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.559 for it, sure, because they have the off switch. I mean. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.640 The trick with invisibly is that the user controls the 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.440 off switch if they if they don't want to trade something. 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.360 So it's a way for people to come on and 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.480 sort of explicitly control what it is, uh that they trade. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.320 And look, it's primitive, early days, but the basic idea 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.000 here is that your data is very valuable. But how 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.240 how valuable is it? We don't really know. We we 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.480 haven't had a market that's been clear. So let's start 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.880 to have that market and then let people make their decisions. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.400 So what do you pay people for the information? Oh? 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.520 Fractions of a cent, tiny bits, I mean, but it 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.000 depends on the information. Like in some cases, we've got 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.920 one sponsor that's uh, that's offering you know, tens of 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.280 dollars for an action. And I'm not gonna tell you 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.760 what because I'll get all these people who preudulently tell 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.800 you that. But like, there are those actions that result 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.600 in you know, tens of dollars, but we're really talking about, 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.680 in many cases fractions of a cent. What's the business 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.280 model for the company? Oh, build it and taken it, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.280 take a percentage. I mean, it's it's it's it's the 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.640 classic agent model. You know, we're going to be your 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.559 agent on on on both sides of the transaction, buying 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.160 your attention and selling your attention. And what we want 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.160 when we're buying it is to get you access to 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.440 everything you could possibly want. And our first, you know, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.480 our first sort of big target is paywald news. Like 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.120 I can't tell you the number of people who you know, 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.440 get tricked into, you know, wanting to read an article 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.160 alot and gets slammed into a paywall that preventsive we're 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.880 reading the article. And so we're going to try to 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:15.280 negotiate eventually one day passed to all those articles that 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.120 you don't even have to be aware of the fact 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.760 that you've got, so you would be you would be 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.480 paying for it or who would be paying for it, 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.079 because you know you'll be paying for it from this 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.920 tiny little invisible wallet you had, it's kind of it's 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:30.920 got a balance in it, but you're talking about fractions 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:32.840 of assent here. So if you want to be bothered 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.440 with it, great. And if you say to me, look, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.160 I don't want to pay for everything. I think everything 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.880 should be free, I'll say, okay, Tim, let's talk about 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.920 what free is free as you give me your tension 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.439 for free and let me sell that, and then I'm 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.000 gonna take what I sell that for and I'm gonna 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.880 shove it in your wallet. I mean, if that's if 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.480 that's free to you, cool. If not, I mean, he 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:52.240 give us a visa card and we'll just hook up 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.280 your up to you know, cook up to the cash 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.760 app and you can pay. You're like, like, however you 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.120 want to fund this, it's up to you. And and 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:02.640 and you know, you you can change your mind, like 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:04.719 you can say, well, look, don't bother me in the 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:06.080 middle of the day. But you know, if I'm waiting 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.439 for a plane or something, or got five minutes to kill, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:10.959 maybe I want to watch and ad and earn twenty cents, 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.680 you know, Jim, to some extent, we do do we 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.199 already do that on some of I think about whether 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.040 it's Uber eats or a platform. Right like, I use 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:20.920 it and then I get a credit and I get 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:22.640 I get, you know, little perks to do. I mean, 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:24.760 we kind of already are doing that in some ways, 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.600 but maybe not really understanding what we're giving away. Yeah, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.880 it's it's a behavior that's common. The problem is that 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.360 it's a behavior that we're used to doing in in 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.960 dollars and tens of dollars and hundreds and thousands of dollars. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:40.720 But it's not something that we're used to doing in 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.160 fractions of ascent, and so we don't think it works 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.280 at fractions of ascent unless some agent that works on 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.520 your behalf, because nobody wants to be bothered by a 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.880 quarter cent here and ten cents there. It's just too 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.600 small to really annoy me with. Hey, Jim, I gotta 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.679 ask about crypto, especially in regard to regulation, because of 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.200 what Square does with crypto, and and how Square has 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:01.800 been thinking about crypto for years. I know you've been 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.760 thinking about crypto for years. What is it? What does 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.800 the US government need to do, What do regulators need 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:11.280 to do when it comes to regulating crypto? Well, I 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.760 think government regulators and I've talked to a bunch in 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:18.199 the last week about this very topic. Need to understand 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.480 that it's coming in multiple forms, including those forms named 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:28.280 after various dogs, UM, and that there's some really really 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.080 positive things, but it's going to be disruptive to the system, 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.679 and the way we regulate something that's new determines how 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.199 it unfolds. And so I'm hoping that we'll get a 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.960 lot of thoughtful, UM sort of forward looking policies that 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:44.920 that allow the innovation to continue. I mean, you don't 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.280 want to squelch out the innovation because that's super valuable UM. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.920 And it's it's easy to say that in the question 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.960 is what do you do to protect us from you know, 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.079 in some cases ourselves. Jim, forgive me. You just go 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.080 about forty seconds. What's the mind blowing utilization of crypto? Ultimately? 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:04.760 And I bring it up because every time we talk crypto, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.120 were like, I'm quite sure I totally understand it yet 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.000 And as I get from much smarter people than myself, 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.640 what is kind of the mind blowing concept of crypto 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.480 that that you should maybe keep in mind that's potentially 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.360 going to happen. Just kind of quickly, what what crypto 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.679 is going to do ultimately is allow many people who 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:27.319 have been disenfranchised to get into a system that's safe 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.320 and fair. And you don't realize because we're all, I mean, 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.400 you're all your Bloomberg listeners. You guys are all probably 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.760 well to do. Okay, I'm well to do. Everybody in 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.960 this broadcast is not in the target market that's going 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.680 to be most effective by these are people who have 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:45.600 literally been preyed upon their entire existence, and we'll have 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.679 access to the things that we take for granted. And 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.760 that's that's going to be the big mind blowing thing 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.480 and won't be mind blowing for folks like us, because look, 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.280 if you're part of the regular banking system, you're fine, 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.640 you don't neither sen like. But if you have been 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.679 shut out, this will be an an for you in 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.439 the future. Alright. Really appreciate Jim McKelvey. He's co founder 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.360 of Square, founder and chairman of Invisibly, and also a 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.320 member of the board of the St. Louis Fed. Thank you, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:09.040 Thank you so much.