1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Brian Coburger quadruple murder 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: trial bomb DNA evidence found under the victim's fingernails. What 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: does it reveal? I'm Ittsi Grace, this is Crime Stories. 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 2: I mean, at first it was rumors of murder suicide, 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: things like that. When you live in a small college town. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: It occurred to not know exactly. 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 3: Four students from University of Idaho murdered. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 4: One of the neighbors down there. 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Of the girls called and said, I want to tell 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: you I'm a neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead. 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: That was then. This is now. 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 5: Brian Coberger's defense team has revealed a major curveball for 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 5: his upcoming trial. A newly unsealed court filing discloses that 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 5: investigators found three unknown profile from DNA underneath victim Medicine 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 5: Mogen's fingernails. Clippings from Mogan's left hand unearthed the samples, 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 5: but testing has not determined who they belonged to. Comparisons 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 5: of the profiles to Coburger's DNA were inconclusive. The accused 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 5: quadruple killer has not been confirmed or excluded as a 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 5: source Okay, letting. 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: Me understand, we are just now learning that there is 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: DNA evidence under one of the dead victim's fingernails. Think 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: it through. Let's follow this through to its logical conclusion. 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: It's not being named as Coburgers, so shouldn't the defense 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: be happy? But yet they're trying to suppress it. I 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: think I smell a rat straight out to Harmonia Rodriguez, 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: chief US reporter with Daily Mail, Harmonia, what's happening? 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 4: That's right, Nancy. This is more information we did not 29 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 4: know about because it had been sealed until this week. 30 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 4: Coburger's team now claims that there was a three person 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 4: mixture of DNA found under the nail clippings of Madison, 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 4: and they have now claimed that independent testing that they 33 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 4: did ruled out Coberger. However, the grand jury heard that 34 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 4: this evidence was inconclusive, so already there are some discrepancies 35 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 4: between what the prosecution has claimed about this DNA evidence 36 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 4: and what the defense is claiming. But as you said, 37 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 4: it is strange that the defense now wants this evidence 38 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 4: ruled out if it was inconclusive for Coburger, because they 39 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 4: could open the door for whether there was more than 40 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 4: one killer in this horrific crime. 41 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Okay, you know what I understand she's saying. You're hearing 42 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: Hermania Rodriguez, chief US reporter with Daily Mail. Just Scott 43 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University. Death Investigator 44 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: has investigated over one thousand death saying, author of Blood 45 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon's star hit series Body Bags, 46 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: Joe Scott in a nutshell, what's happening. 47 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 6: Well, here's the problem that they're running up against, I think, Nancy. 48 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 6: When these samples were taken off of the left hand 49 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 6: of the victim at the morgue, there is this distinct 50 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 6: possibility that you could have commingle samples in here. And 51 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 6: what that means is that they're saying that they have three. Well, 52 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 6: we don't know what the source of these three are, 53 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 6: but the profile that they have are attempted to build 54 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 6: out of these three was not sufficient enough to rule 55 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 6: coburger in or out. So that really leaves them twisting 56 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 6: in the wind. Nancy, Okay, you know what. 57 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: To me, it boils down to this, three DNA sources 58 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: are found under the fingernails of a murder victim. Why 59 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: is it the defense is fighting tooth and nail to 60 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: exclude it. See, in my mind, if I were a 61 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: defensis running, which would never happen, I would be running 62 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: up in front of the courthouse, back and forth with 63 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: a big banner saying inconclusive, inconclusive, there's DNA under the 64 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: victim's fingernail, and it's not It can't be proven to 65 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: be my client. Hence it's somebody else. But they're not. 66 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: They actually want this suppress What more do we know 67 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: about this bombshell DNA evidence under the victim's fingernail? 68 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 7: In grand jury proceedings, an Idaho State Police forensic scientist 69 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 7: testifies that statistically, it can be assumed that Mogan is 70 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 7: one of the three individuals. Investigators went on to test 71 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 7: two hypothesis based on that assumption that both remaining profiles 72 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 7: belonged to unrelated individuals, or the Gonzavis, whom Mogan slept 73 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 7: next to that night, accounts for one of the profiles 74 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 7: and there is only one unrelated individual. The test results, 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 7: measured as likelihood ratios, all came back and conclude, falling 76 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 7: just above the State Police's standard for exclusion. 77 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: The DNA of three individuals is found under the fingernails 78 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: of Mattie Mogan. What does this mean? It's got to 79 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: mean something. Now you heard that in grand jury proceedings, 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: which are secret, we don't have a right to hear 81 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: all of that. This is for a jury to hear 82 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: this evidence. What does it mean? Three individuals DNA under 83 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: the fingernails of Mattie Mogan. Now their speculation that because 84 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: Kelly Gousov has slept with Mattie that night, slept next 85 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: to her, could some of this be her DNA? Joining 86 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: me right now is a very special guest, Susannah Ryan 87 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: Lab director and forensic DNA analyst at Pure Gold Forensics 88 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: and forensic DNA consultant at Ryan Forensics. Twenty five years 89 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: in the field of DNA and roology. Susannah, thank you 90 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: for being with us. You know, Susannah, when I first 91 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: introduced DNA in front of a jury, I insisted that 92 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: the scientists from the crime lab. Brilliant woman bring me 93 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: all of the evidence to show to the jury. It 94 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: looked like, oh gosh, undeveloped film that you just pulled 95 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: out of a camera, covered in dots and specs. I 96 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: quickly took it out of her hands and put it 97 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: away because it was blurry, It didn't make any sense. 98 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: The defense was just as worried about it as I was. 99 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: They never even cross examined on it. They're like, what 100 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: is that? Now? I'm asking the same thing, What does 101 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: inconclusive mean? Can you make sense out of what we're learning? 102 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 8: Hi, Nancy, Yes, So inconclusive in this sense means that 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 8: they're the data is very low level and they're unable 104 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 8: to to include or exclude coburger based upon their internal 105 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 8: laboratory guidelines. Now it is possible that other laboratories are 106 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 8: going to have other guidelines, and I think that this 107 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 8: is why the defense is fighting to try to keep 108 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 8: this out. They're afraid that the jury is going to 109 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 8: hear inconclusive and think, hey, you actually can't be excluded. 110 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 9: It might be him. There's just not enough DNA to 111 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 9: really link him. 112 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 8: And you know, reading between the lines of this motion, 113 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 8: it sounds like in other laboratories this exact same result 114 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 8: would actually be considered limited support for exclusion. So anytime 115 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 8: you have a likelihood ratio of less than one, it 116 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 8: points towards exclusion versus inclusion. 117 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: Now I've got a question for you, actually many questions, 118 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: and everybody on the panel jump in. We've got Susannah 119 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: Ryan with us, especially Joe Scott Morgan, please any questions 120 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: for her. But you know, Susannah, you said this last 121 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: couldn't come up with an answer. Aren't there specialty labs 122 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: that deal with degraded or let me say their word 123 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: is ineligible it's ineligible DNA? First of all, what does 124 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: that mean? It is ineligible DNA mean there's not enough 125 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: of it? But can't you replicate DNA regenerate it so 126 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: you have enough to make a comparison? First of all, 127 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: is there not enough? Is it degraded? For instance? Has 128 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: DNA been mixed with mud or blood to the point 129 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: where you can't get a DNA analysis? Or is DNA commingled? Here? 130 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: We got three DNA types? Are they commingled to the 131 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: point that you can't get a good answer? Air go, 132 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: couldn't this DNA be sent to another specialty or boutique lab, 133 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, like auth RAM maybe to specialize this in 134 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: degraded or in eligible DNA. 135 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 8: Okay, that's a lot of questions. 136 00:08:58,920 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to answer them all. 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 8: But so ineligible typically means it's ineligible for upload to 138 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 8: codis right? So we can't put it into codis. Maybe 139 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 8: it's too low level. We don't have results at enough 140 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 8: low areas. 141 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: Why why because look, I'm just a trial lawyer. Why 142 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: can't I load it into codis? Why can't I compare it? 143 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 8: Because if it's a mixture, you're going to get so 144 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 8: many hits that you don't even know. 145 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: What to do with it. 146 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 10: Right. 147 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 8: So, and also the FBI has very particular rules about 148 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 8: what can be uploaded or cannot. 149 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: Hold on, wait, what about not loading it the ineligible 150 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: DNA into codis, but just comparing it to the victims 151 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: in coburger. 152 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 8: They do that, right, Yes, and they this is what 153 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 8: we feel. 154 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: That's yes. 155 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 8: And I believe when we talk about these three contributors, 156 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 8: one of them is clearly Madison Mogan, right, based on 157 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 8: what I'm reading, and that that doesn't surprise me under 158 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 8: her fingernails. 159 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: Well, it's under her fingernails exactly. 160 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 11: Yes. 161 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: And then what it sounds. 162 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 8: Like is there are two, at least two, you know, 163 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 8: very probably low level contributors. When I see likelihood ratios 164 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 8: where there are multiple individuals that have a less than 165 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 8: one likelihood ratio as reported in this motion, but they're 166 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 8: just a little bit less than one, you know, point 167 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 8: four point two things like that. That informs me that 168 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 8: probably the data, the amount of DNA material under the 169 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 8: nails foreign to Madison is just really low level. 170 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, way you got me drinking from the 171 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: fire hydrant, Suzanne O. Ryan, Okay, low level, low level. See, 172 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: I'd have to put that in terms that I and 173 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: the jury could understand. You mean, for instance, if one 174 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: of the DNA contributors to the evidence under Matty Megan's nails, 175 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: let's just pretend was killer Gun's solves. You say low level, 176 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: that means just maybe a bare touch. Maybe she touched 177 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: her hair, maybe she touched her PJ that maybe she 178 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 1: touched her arm in the NYE. Is that what you 179 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: mean by low level? 180 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 8: Yes? Absolutely, And so that's the other thing to be 181 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 8: aware of. Just because somebody has foreign DNA DNA not 182 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 8: consistent with themselves under their nails, that doesn't mean that 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 8: it got there through some struggle or scratching event. You know, 184 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 8: studies have been done on this and it is not 185 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 8: uncommon at all for a person to have somebody else's 186 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,239 Speaker 8: DNA at a low level. 187 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: Under their nail. Crime stories with Nancy Grace guys, there's 188 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: another way to look at this bomb bomb torpedo. Let 189 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: me rephrase that a stink bomb has just been dropped 190 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: and Brian's quadruple murder trial. Three unknown DNA contributors found 191 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: under the nails of Mattie Mogan. Problem. We can't tell 192 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: who contributed them to Chris McDonald joining me. He and 193 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: I have been to the scene many many times. This 194 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: is near Here's jurisdiction. Former homicide detective with over three 195 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: hundred homicide investigations to his credit. I found him on 196 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: YouTube at the interview room. But he is also director 197 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Cole Case Foundation. Chris, what about this? This marks the 198 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: first time that we are learning there is additional DNA 199 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: at the scene, and I believe the defense is all, wait, 200 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: they want this suppressed. There is a reason they want 201 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: to suppressed because this DNA hurts them. We're all, okay, 202 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: we're like the blind, the three blind guys, and we're 203 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: touching the elephant. You say, what are you feeling? One says, 204 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: describes the tail, one describes the foot, one describes the trunk. 205 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: We're in the dark here, but this is what I know, mcdona. 206 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: The defense wants this evidence out therefore I want it in. 207 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is and I don't know 208 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: what it means, but the defense wants it out. That 209 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: means they think it proves something against their client. What 210 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: about this, mcdonna, we're just learning about this fingernail evidence. 211 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: This indicates to me that there is more DNA evidence 212 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: at that scene that we don't know about yet. Thoughts. 213 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 12: Yeah, Nancy, I would agree with you that. You know, 214 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 12: this is remember that old line. So there's a chance 215 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 12: to them that this is one of those situations from uh, 216 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 12: you know, the defensive perspective. They don't want to put 217 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 12: this type of evidence in front of a jury because 218 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 12: that jury may say, hey, well, you know, we can't 219 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 12: we can't be positive for sure based on what the 220 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 12: labb is telling us. 221 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 6: So you're right, I would agree with you. 222 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 12: This is probably the tip of the iceberg. 223 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 7: Goldberger claims he was driving his car as he often 224 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 7: did to hike and run and or see the moon 225 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 7: and stars. 226 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 8: Our defas team firmly and I mean firmly believes in 227 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 8: mister Coberger's. 228 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 13: In a sense. 229 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: Did you get that firmly believes? Okay, all right, I'm 230 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: glad she believes her client because blind fate is definitely 231 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: going to enter into this defense. Well that's not all 232 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: the shock and new claim that Brian Coburger is autistic 233 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: as snuck back into the courtroom Listen. 234 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 3: Coberg's defense team is also arguing that his autism diagnosis 235 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: should bar him from receiving the death penalty. The attorneys 236 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: claim that symptoms of his autism may prejudice jures against him, 237 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: citing Coberger's limited facial expressions and atypical eye contact as 238 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: things that could be perceived as a lack of remorse 239 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: or even disrespect in the courtroom. And Taylor specifically points 240 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: to the media labeling Coberger's expression as an eerie or 241 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: creepy stare. 242 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: Okay joining me. Doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile psycho alys 243 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: out of La, author of deal Breakers. You can see 244 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: are on peacock now and you can find her at 245 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: dtor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany He's never been 246 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: diagnosed as autistic, even though he has had extensive testing 247 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: in the past for his what was it White Snow 248 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: syndrome he suffered when he was a teen, where I 249 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: guess or see or hear something like TV static. That's it. 250 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: He had extensive testing. Then he wrote about how it 251 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: made him feel that he felt no remorse, he had 252 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: no conscience, nothing bothered him. How About he's not autistic? 253 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: How about he actually is creepy, Nancy. 254 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 13: This is just the right amount of wrong, meaning that 255 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 13: the defense attorneys are noticing that he has lacks empathy 256 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 13: for the victims, which is a common symptom of predators 257 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 13: and serial murderers, and because of that, they're going to 258 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 13: have to explain that away. Like the jury is going 259 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 13: to notice that he's sitting there at the table with 260 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 13: dead eyes, and they're going to see the dead eyes 261 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 13: and they're going to say, what does this mean? 262 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 14: So now the defense is like. 263 00:16:54,520 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 13: Oh, it's autism, because when you're autistic, you notoriously do 264 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 13: not track with the feelings and emotions of others. What 265 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 13: I really think, Nancie, it just doesn't disservice to people who. 266 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 14: Are are autistic. 267 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: Okay, you know Philip Dubay joining me, LA County Attorney. Philip, 268 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: I've had so many cases where I look at the 269 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: jury and they have this horror look on their faces 270 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: right there, Oh, and I'd follow their gaze. The defendant 271 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: would be looking at them and they'd be like, ooh, okay. 272 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: Then I had a case in a murder trial where 273 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: the defendant his attorney finally told him don't move your head. 274 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: Why because he had carved into the back of his 275 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: hair hit man number one. So naturally I kept walking 276 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: over to that side of the courtroom to make him 277 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: turn that way so the jury could get a good 278 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: look at the advertisement he placed that screened guilty on 279 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: the back of his head. So here we've got the 280 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: defense attorney an tailer concerned that if the jury even 281 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: looks at Kyburger, they'll thank you's quote creepy. Why is that? 282 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 15: It's because of the outward symptoms, if you will, How 283 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 15: the people who are on the ASD spectrum present and 284 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 15: I can understand the concern. Unless you educate the jury 285 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 15: ahead of time so that they understand the symptom andtology 286 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 15: associated with ASD, it's very possible that they can interpret 287 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 15: it as evidence of guilt. When you have creepy eyes, 288 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 15: when you have the shark eyes, when you have that gaze, 289 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 15: that stare, it makes it look like you're empty and 290 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 15: vapid inside and purely homicidal. 291 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 11: They what you are orial. 292 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: You can maybe consider that. I mean, the guys made 293 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: It's nearly thirty years old, and he's never once been 294 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: diagnosed as autistic until Anne Taylor diagnosed him as defense lawyer. 295 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 11: I on the ball, on the wall, Yeah, I on 296 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 11: the ball. 297 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: That's what I'm looking for. A tree is creepy, because 298 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: he is creepy. 299 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 11: I understand that. 300 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 15: Then you need to rewrite the DSM amended and edit 301 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 15: it so that autism spectrum disordered no longer qualifies as 302 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 15: an intellectual incapacity. 303 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 11: And unless and until you do like. 304 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 15: He qualifies under Atkins for an exemption from the death penalty, 305 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 15: that's the endgame. 306 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: Philip D. Bay does the DSM right. Wait a minute, 307 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist? I thought you 308 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: were trying it. 309 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 11: I am both. 310 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 15: I mean that's what defense. He is a. 311 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: Psychologist and psychiatrist. Life coaches. 312 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 11: We're social workers, life coaches. 313 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 15: We're pseudo intellectual psychologists, neuropsychologists, where all of it. We're 314 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 15: trained how to detect the problems so we can get 315 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 15: the appropriate experts commissioned to evaluate the client. 316 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: So I take that as no, you're not a psychologist 317 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: or a psychiatrist. But in the DSM, does it allow 318 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: your defense attorney to diagnose you as being the spectrum? 319 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: Does it? 320 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 11: That's a yes, no, of course no, of course not 321 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 11: see you be a doctor, and they did. 322 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 15: They got a neuropsychologists appointed who did extensive testing and 323 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 15: came back with this result. It's not as if they 324 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 15: just yanked it out of the firmament and said, our 325 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 15: client is autistic or has Asperger syndrome or some other 326 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 15: intellectual disability. It's all documented by the experts. 327 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: The news came in that the police are responding to 328 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: a call of someone found unconscious before additional body. 329 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: Coburger allegedly entered a home with six occupants and a dog, 330 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 3: only armed with a small knife. 331 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: Carmania Rodriguez joining US chief US reporter Daily Meil, Did 332 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: I understand this correctly? The defense attorney and Taylor wants 333 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: the DNA evidence suppressed so the jury never finds out 334 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: that Matty Morgan had DNA under her finger nails from 335 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: three people. They want that. They want the death penalty 336 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: off the table because they now have diagnosed almost thirty 337 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: years old, the PhD student, the THA teaching assistant, him, 338 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: the guy that made incredible great grades and his held 339 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: down jobs him. They want the DNA evidence excluded, they 340 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: want him declared autistic, and the death penalty off the table, 341 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: and now they want any mention of quote bushy eyebrows 342 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: disallowed in court. 343 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 4: And NCEE, the defense team seems to really be trying 344 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: to control what a potential jury's going to hear in 345 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 4: this case. Some may say they're just continuing to try 346 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: to delay this trial. That's a schedule for August. I 347 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 4: also wanted to note they apparently have also diagnosed him 348 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 4: with an eating disorder obsessive compulsive disorder, and as you said, 349 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 4: they want the judge to bar any witnesses or the 350 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 4: prosecution from using the terms psychopath, sociopath, and bushy eyebrows, 351 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 4: which is really unbelievable because, as we have discussed here, 352 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 4: the surviving witnesses description of the suspect has been fundamental 353 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 4: in the prosecution's case against Coberger, and of course usually 354 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 4: in cases like this, a witness can describe what they saw. 355 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: So this really is a long shot for the defense 356 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 4: to try to tell witnesses that they cannot say bushy eyebrows, 357 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 4: especially when it comes to the testimony of that surviving 358 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 4: witness that's going to be fundamental for the prosecution's. 359 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: Case, specifically Taylor, the defense lawyer demanding this. 360 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 5: Taylor also demands the descriptor bushy eyebrows be barred from testimony. 361 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 5: Taylor claims that surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson's bedroom was covered 362 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 5: in sketches of eyes, and according to Taylor, nearly all 363 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 5: of them had prominent eyebrows she describes as heavy, voluminous, puffy, 364 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 5: or perhaps subjectively bushy. Taylor claims that if Mortensen is 365 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 5: allowed to use the term on the witness stand, it 366 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 5: will be as damning as you're pointing to him and 367 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 5: saying he is the man that did this. 368 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: So let me understand, Debay, Coburger has bushy eyes. That's 369 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: his signature style. So now the defense attorney wants to 370 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: rule the eyewitness testimony out because she said the killer 371 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: had bushy eyebrows. 372 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 11: That's correct, because you got to understand something. 373 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 15: It was a suggestive identification based on all the drawings 374 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 15: and the sketches in her bedroom of men or other 375 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 15: people with bushy eyebrows. And when you have suggestive identifications, 376 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 15: they lead to misidentifications. 377 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: That's not true. It could a suggestive identification. A suggestive 378 00:23:54,359 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: identification is when the state suggests to the witness who 379 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: they should identify or how they should identify the defendant 380 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: the suspect. I don't know if you think I just 381 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: fell off the turnip truck, but I have law degrees 382 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: from Mercy University and NYU and tried over one hundred 383 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: felonies in superior court alone, all violent. So don't try 384 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: and contort the law with me, Dubet, don't. As a 385 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: matter of fact, listen. 386 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 7: Taylor once again argues that Dylan Mortenson's entire statement with 387 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 7: the description of the suspect, should be excluded. Taylor reveals 388 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 7: that Mortenson told police she frequently experienced lucid dreams where 389 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 7: she was being kidnapped or chased, and was not sure 390 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 7: if she was conscious or dreaming when she encountered the suspect. 391 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: Joining me is Chris McDonough, veteran homicide detective, star of 392 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, have you ever heard 393 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: I hate to throw a technical legal tournam at you 394 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: like this, but such a on a bs in your 395 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: life that the witness, the girl that survived, can't say 396 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: the killer had bushy eyebrows. I mean, this, in addition 397 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: to many other arguments, makes the defense almost laughable. But 398 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: I want to remind everybody it wasn't laughable the morning 399 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: that those parents got calls from neighbors stating your child 400 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: is dead. It's not laughable. This is contorting the law. 401 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 12: Yeah, and that's the bottom line, right, Nancy. I mean, 402 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 12: you have done this, you know, like you said, hundreds 403 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 12: of times, and I'm just waiting for the defense quite frankly, 404 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 12: to start, you know, introducing narratives that this guy used 405 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 12: to work at his local you know, animal shelter on 406 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 12: the weekend, delivering puppies. I mean, we're down to this 407 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 12: place where now the defense is arguing, you know, hey, 408 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 12: we need to be specific about the types of words 409 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 12: that can be utilized in the court of law. It's 410 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 12: getting ridiculous, actually, and I think the judge is getting 411 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 12: fed up with it. 412 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about what they want suppressed. Doctor 413 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, I need you to explain this to me. 414 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: They also want the word psychopath and sociopath barred from 415 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: being mentioned in court. Now they have dug up a psychologist, 416 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: doctor John Eden's, and he claims that those are not 417 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: accurate diagnoses for Coburger and that the terms are unfairly prejudicial. 418 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: What do those terms mean, doctor Bethany Marshall. 419 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 14: Psychopaths and sociopath means that there is no attachment to 420 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 14: the victim, there's no attachment to anybody else in their lives. 421 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 14: So they sociopathy is a disorder of attachment. And so 422 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 14: what we're going to see with the defense is that 423 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 14: they're going to see that Brian Coeber, Poger of Brian Koeber. 424 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 13: Was not. 425 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 14: Connected to the victims in any real way. 426 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 7: I don't like you he. 427 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 11: Did a white color crime. 428 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 16: This isn't a white color crime. This is this is 429 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 16: people you work your whole life to get them to 430 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 16: go to college and then they get killed where they're 431 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 16: sleep that night. This guy like he just like traded 432 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 16: insider trading, but his own company stops. 433 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: It's not white Cole. Not only is the case rocked 434 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: by three unidentified DNA evident samples under the fingernails of 435 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: victim Maddie Mogan, the defense wants that suppressed. They want 436 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: the death penalty taken off the table because now after 437 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: almost thirty years, they have decided that Ryan Coberger is 438 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: autistic end quote looks creepy. That's their words, not mine. 439 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: They want the word psychopath and sociopath barred from evidence. 440 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: They want any description of Coburger's bushy eyebrows by an 441 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: eyewitness thrown out. The jury will never hear it. 442 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 3: And now they want this and Taylor also has a 443 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: problem with the word murderer. Taylor calls to prohibit any 444 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: form of the term. 445 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 11: Murder, murdered, murderer. 446 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 3: Or murder weapon from the courtroom, except in charging documents 447 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 3: and jury instructions. Taylor writes that the trial will serve 448 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 3: to answer the question of if the killings at issue 449 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: are murders and whether the murders were committed by Brian Coberger. 450 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: Taylor argues that labeling Coburger as a murderer and asserting 451 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: that any of the four decedents were murdered by Brian 452 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: Coberger denies her client's right to a fair trial. 453 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,719 Speaker 1: Chryl lawyer Philip Debay joining me, wait a minute, debate, 454 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: This is a murder trial, right, and Kinberger's defense doesn't 455 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: want the word murder in the courtroom. 456 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 15: Really, every state defines the names of all the parties 457 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 15: in a criminal action. A defendant, for example, the people 458 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 15: of the state of Idaho, victims, witnesses. You can refer 459 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 15: to him as a defendant, you can refer to him 460 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 15: as Brian, as mister Coburger. But when you refer to 461 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 15: him as the psychopath, the murderer, the killer, it necessarily 462 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 15: implies guilt before you put on one shred of evidence, 463 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 15: and to avoid that type of suggest stability, you back 464 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 15: off and refer to people by their names or by 465 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 15: their legal title. 466 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: That's not what the motion says. The motion doesn't just 467 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: say he cannot be called a murderer, which of course 468 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: under the law he can in opening and closing statements. 469 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: But they don't want the term murder or murdered or 470 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: murder weapon in the courtroom. I'm not talking about labeling 471 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: Heiberger as the murderer, which of course they have the 472 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: right to do definitely in closing statements. But the word murder, 473 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: the word murdered or murder weapon they want excluded and 474 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: disallowed to be spoken in the courtroom. That's what I'm 475 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: asking you to address. Don't tell me this. When I'm 476 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: asking you this, I know you're trying to avoid the question. 477 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: So just answer if you can copy will go. So 478 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: here's the deal. 479 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 15: When you say the word murder, it necessarily implies that 480 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 15: a crime has been committed by the defendant, as opposed 481 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 15: to referring to it as a death, maybe even as 482 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 15: a killing. But when you use the word murder, it 483 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 15: necessarily encompasses malice of forethought, premeditation, and all the special 484 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 15: allegations for the enhancement without putting on any evidence. 485 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 11: And when you keep repeating a word murderer, murder, it 486 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 11: sort of conditions the jury into saying, aha, we got him. 487 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 11: We are convinced beyond a reasonable debt. 488 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So you're not really giving this jury any credit 489 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: at all. It brings to mind the case of Travis Alexander, 490 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: who was a young man that was stabbed nearly thirty times, 491 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: some say more, but they were overlapping stab wounds, so 492 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: we really don't know. Then shot in the head, then 493 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: his killer, Jody Arius, left him to decompose naked in 494 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: his shower. In that case, the defense, Jody Arius's defense 495 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: moved to have the word victim barred from the trial. 496 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: Let me understand what's happening to HARMONYL. Rodriguez joining us. 497 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: The defense is now arguing that, in addition to DNA 498 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: evidence exclusion and exclusion of the words bushy eyebrows, we're 499 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: not going to hear the word murder in the Isn't 500 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: that what the indictment says? Four counts of premeditated murder. 501 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 4: This is again the defense has been building for months, 502 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 4: this idea that Coburger cannot possibly get a fair trial 503 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 4: because the way the media has covered this case and 504 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 4: the years that has passed since it occurred. Now this 505 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 4: is their latest attempt to say that it's already an 506 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 4: unfair playing field for Coburger. So they say that barring 507 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 4: these terms from the courtroom might mitigate what the media 508 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: has done. But as you say, everything they're saying means 509 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 4: that they basically cannot trust any. 510 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 11: Trial to give Coberger a fair shot. 511 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 4: So again the defense continues to try to delay the 512 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 4: trial with these motions. 513 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: They're going to have a hard time keeping the word 514 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: murder out of the courtroom since that is in the indictment. 515 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: I guess Philip Dubay and the defense toorney Ann Taylor, 516 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: would advocate not reading the indictment to the jury, not 517 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: letting them look at the indictment. That's how every case 518 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: starts with the impaneling of a jury. The indictment is 519 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: read out loud in courtroom, typically by the prosecutor and 520 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: some jurisdictions of the judge. What do they say, just 521 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: a beep boop. Coburger is charged with boob no discussion 522 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: of murder. And they also don't want the word psychopath 523 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: or sociopath mentioned in the courtroom. They're concerned that Coburger 524 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: looks creepy, and they the defense is trying to say 525 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: that's because he's autistic. I have worked with many, many 526 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: people under the spectrum, under the spectrum, and they were 527 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: not creepy at all, So I'm curious where they're getting 528 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: that from. As a matter of fact, the inmates with 529 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: Coburger have noticed that he's creepy and looks homicidal. 530 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 10: Listen, this individual is described by other inmates in the 531 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 10: facility has the look of Lance, the fellow who killed 532 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 10: other people. There's this stare that we've heard about at 533 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 10: the student union with the young ladies looking at him 534 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 10: and him looking at them. I mean, there is something 535 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 10: evil connected with this individual, as based on his own behavior. 536 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 16: The person who did this crime looked at one of 537 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 16: the victims and that are here to help you. If 538 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 16: that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that 539 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 16: you could ever hear. 540 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be rewarded. 541 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: With the suit and a fresh air cut every time 542 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: of Ben's wild. 543 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: That's wild at this hour, as a defense tries their 544 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: best to torpedo the state's case. Having DNA evidance suppressed, 545 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: the jury will never hear about that, having the eyewitness 546 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson, having her id and her statement suppressed, having 547 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: Bush eyebrows the words suppressed which obviously describe Coburger, having 548 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: the word murder barred from a murder trial, having the 549 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: word psychopathic sociopath disallowed in the courtroom. While the state 550 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: is near being stripped of its evidence, we learned the 551 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: disturbing emergence of something called Brian Nation. 552 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 9: Since Coberger's arrest and the murders of Ethan Shape and 553 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 9: Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen and Killiganzolves, a number of social 554 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 9: media groups have emerged proclaiming his innocence. A subreddit called 555 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 9: Brian Nation has recently been banned from the platform, but 556 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 9: several Facebook groups with names such as Justice for Brian 557 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 9: Coberger are still active. With thousands of members. At least 558 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 9: one woman has sent Coburger love letters. 559 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: According to miniate reports, fans have gone quote crazy over 560 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: new photos of Brian Coberger, charged in the murders of 561 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: four Beautiful University, Idaho students. This must be a dagger 562 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: to the hearts of the victims' families. I don't understand it. 563 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: Straight up to Chris mcdunna joining me, veteran homicide detective, Chris, 564 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: I don't understand how it's like Luigi Mancioni being idolized 565 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: and glamorized. One look at an actual crime scene could 566 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: cure every member of Brian nation. These people have no 567 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: idea what they're talking about. 568 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 12: Yeah, they don't, Nancy, And this is kind of a 569 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 12: shock to our society as a whole that we're even 570 00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 12: contemplating this conversation here, that he's having a mini fan club. 571 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 12: I mean, just think about the verbiage that he used. 572 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 12: If it's him, obviously he's innocent until proven guilty by 573 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 12: a jury, but just think of that verbage. I'm here 574 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 12: to help, and then think of the slaughter that you're 575 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 12: talking about. You know, that's going to impact not only 576 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 12: the families, but a community and quite frankly, anybody that's 577 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 12: going to see those photographs in that. 578 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: Court of law. Multiple posters in Facebook groups are dedicated 579 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: to supporting the nearly thirty year old murder defendant, giving 580 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: him a quote five star approval for his new mug shot. 581 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor forensics and star of Bodybags podcast, 582 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, can we just give all the members of 583 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: Brian nation a reality check about what was found at 584 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: this murder scene? 585 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 6: I would love to, and I'm glad that my friend 586 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 6: Chris brought up the term slaughter. I got some words 587 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 6: for this defense attorney as well. When you begin to 588 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 6: think this, you know what is she an English professor? 589 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 6: We're going to start diagramming sentences now and defining what 590 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 6: a Jaron is. This is absolute absurdity. My friend Chris 591 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 6: used the word slaughter. I'll use the word also, butchery. 592 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 6: When you begin to think about this, this is going 593 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 6: to be a scene that is absolutely bathed in blood. 594 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 6: And here if you like that one, here's another one. 595 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 6: When that jury isnt paneled and they're sitting in there, 596 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 6: defense council knows that these photographs are coming down the track. 597 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 6: It's like a train that cannot be avoided, and they're 598 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 6: going to try to get some of these excluded. But 599 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 6: when that jury sees what is headed their way, when 600 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 6: they see these grotesque images of what was done to 601 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 6: these college students, it will make them absolutely petrified that 602 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 6: they're in the same room with this individual you talk 603 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 6: about stairs. Their heads are going to be on a 604 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 6: swivel and they're going to look at this guy sitting 605 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 6: on the table. Ann Taylor knows that that's coming, Nancy. 606 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 6: And when these investigators get up there and they begin 607 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 6: to describe what they saw, it's going to be unbelievable. 608 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 6: Just think about the witnesses that actually found the body. 609 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 6: They're going to be powerful in this case. That's why 610 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 6: they're retreating, That's why they're doing all this. They're trying 611 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 6: to pull out all the stops because when it comes 612 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 6: down to it, this is going to be one of 613 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,479 Speaker 6: the most ghastly things that we have seen in many, 614 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 6: many years. 615 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: Susannah Ryan with me Live, director forensic DNA analyst at 616 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics. Susannah, in your world, you see the 617 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: clinical analysis of blood DNA and more. Do you ever, 618 00:39:53,360 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: I do disassociate what you're looking at what it really 619 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: is blood from a murder scene, because it's kind of 620 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: easier to get through if you don't think about what 621 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: the victims went through. 622 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,479 Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, I don't think I could do my job 623 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 8: if I were constantly thinking about, you know, out of 624 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 8: the evidence that I'm looking at, get to be as 625 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 8: bloody or as torn up or you know, whatever it is. 626 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 8: I definitely compartmentalize that that's my work and I don't 627 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 8: spend a lot of time thinking about those things, especially 628 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 8: like I said in the laboratory, because I need to 629 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 8: be focused on what I'm doing and make sure I 630 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 8: do it properly. And if I'm thinking about what this 631 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 8: person went through for the evidence item to look like 632 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 8: it does, I'm not going to be able to objectively 633 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 8: complete my work. 634 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: Well, you're right, Susanna Ryan. Right now, the Brian Koberger 635 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: defense is doing everything it can to sanitized, to airbrush 636 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: what this case is about. It is about the murders, 637 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: the gruesome butchering, as Joe Scott said, a four innocent, beautiful, 638 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: young University Idaho students murdered in their beds. According to insiders, 639 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: so Coburger could see quote what it felt like we 640 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds, and now we remember an American hero. 641 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: Police officer Christopher Morton, Clinton, p D. Missouri, shot and 642 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty Army National Guard VET. 643 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: Survived by parents Daryl and Terra, siblings Derek and Lindy. 644 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:56,399 Speaker 1: American hero police officer Christopher Morton. Nancy Gray signing off 645 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: goodbye friend 646 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:01,439 Speaker 14: Boo.