1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: And we're doing it together, doing it, doing it. We're 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: just doing it together, and this is stuff you should know. 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: That's right. I have the rainy day blues, you guys, 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: but we're doing it anyway. 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: We're doing it together. 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: The rain shouldn't stop an indoor podcast, right, No. 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: But I'm with it. It's been raining too much lately 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: and it can get to you after a while. 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, I'll persevere. The sun is shining in 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: my head. 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: Oh that's very pleasant. 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: It's not true, but it's a nice thing to say. 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: Okay, So that reminds me of that. I remember when 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: Pebbles and Bambam on Flintstones had like a brief singing career. 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wasn't. 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: It like, let's the sunshine in? Or there is something 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: there hit single head to do with sunshine? 20 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Well? I remember let the sunshine in? But was that 21 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: the Brady bunch? Was that Pebbles and Bam Bam you 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: let the sunshine in? Something something with the grin. 23 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 2: I don't think it was either of them, not even 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: the Brady Bunch though. Well, at any rate, it just 25 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: reminded me of Pebbles and Bambam, so that did my 26 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: heart good too. 27 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: Alrighty, So can I just briefly say what we're talking 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: about so people don't think this is about the fund Stones? Yeah, 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: although that'd be a fun episode. 30 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: Actually, I agree, I think that is a future episode. 31 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: Good idea, all right. 32 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: The shadow biosphere, which is to say, this notion, this 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: theoretical notion that perhaps, if you know, we're constantly looking 34 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: for life on other planets and it has been positive, 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: well what if there if that life exists here on Earth, 36 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: but it just doesn't look at all, and it's not 37 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: made up of all the things that make up life 38 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: as we know it here on Earth, and so we're 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: just either looking in the wrong places or not recognizing 40 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: it as something that's alive, or both. And that's the 41 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: shadow biosphere, this idea. It's pretty cool. 42 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is pretty cool. I mean. One of the 43 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: big problems that you run into when you're talking about 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: a shadows biosphere or plotting to look for other forms 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: of life that just don't conform to what we think 46 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: of as life as we know it. The big problem 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: is is we don't really have a working definition of 48 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: life as life as we know it, like us, microbes, birds, like, 49 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: there's not a real definition that covers all of them, 50 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: and there is one that scientists have agreed to generally 51 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: settle on. But if people who are into the shadow biosphere, 52 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: which is to say, usually a combination of astrobiologists and microbiologists, 53 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: it's where they're two feel overlap in a ven diagram, 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: that's where the shadow biosphere lives, they will say like, 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: this is holy inadequate, Like there are we need to 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: broaden the horizons or else we're never going to detect 57 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: anything that's not living. 58 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll tell you what, my friend, I hope 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: one day during the life of the show, we do 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: find life on other planets that significant, so you will 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: stop doing articles about it. 62 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: Well, this is so yeah, okay, fair, fair, This is 63 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: a pursuit of astrobiology. But the thing that I find 64 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: the most fascinating is where microbiology comes in. And they're saying, yeah, 65 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: this would help us find or look for life off 66 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: of Earth. Yeah, but it'll also help us find life 67 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: on Earth. Like the idea that we share a planet 68 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: with other trees of life that aren't related to us 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: in any way, shape or form other than we we 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: share the planet and they function in ways similar that 71 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: life as we know it functions, but we're not related. 72 00:03:59,760 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 73 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's neat. 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: I think it's totally neat. And here's the other thing too, 75 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: is if, and this is a pretty important note, if 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: we do find something here on life on Earth that 77 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: is like a shadow life form of some sort, we're 78 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: probably talking about microbes. Just so people don't get super 79 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: excited about the idea of chuds being a real thing. 80 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: That's not a real thing. We're not going to We're 81 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: not going to go deep down enough to find any 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: cannibalistic humanoid underground dwellers sadly. So what we're talking about 83 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: here microbes, and what we're talking about is this idea 84 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: put forth by a very smart woman named Carol Cleland 85 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: from the University of Colorado Go buffaloes. And I think 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: the way she came about it was like you hear 87 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: about like she came about it. Honestly, I think this 88 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: is like one of those times because she was in Spain, 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: she was observing some molecular biologists. They were looking for 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: soil mic and microorganisms looking through these samples and she 91 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: was like, hey, they went see, and she said, how 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: do you know, like that you found something new, like 93 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: a new microbe And they said, well, and I'm not 94 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: going to say this in Spanish because I didn't translate 95 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: at all. I just know what yes is. See, but 96 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: they said, well, what we do is we look until 97 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: we find something that looks like it might hold some promise. 98 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: Then we you know, we've looked at it under a microscope. 99 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: Then we put it in a Petri dish and just 100 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: grow the heck out of it and then isolate its 101 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: DNA and then look at the genome and see, like, hey, 102 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: what does this look like? And then she went, oh, 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: that's kind of cool, but I have another question. It's 104 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: kind of like Tom Hanks and Big like. 105 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: They get still here. 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: She said, well, what if it's not related to life 107 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: on earth? Like, how would you even know? You're like, 108 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: how to recognize something as being alive? And they all 109 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: shrugged and she wrote a book about it. 110 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: Oh see, I imagine them all for and one of 111 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 2: them just drops the Petrie dish without they just drop 112 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: like they can't believe what they've just heard. They're stunned. 113 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and COVID. 114 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: So so, Carol Cleveland makes a really excellent point. And 115 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: like you said, this kicked off the idea of shadow biospheres, 116 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: and in fact she coined that term. But what she's 117 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: saying is that our process of looking for life would 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: just walk right past anything that doesn't conform to our 119 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: understanding of life. But that still is living in a 120 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: certain definition of things. 121 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: Nailed it. 122 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So just to kind of step back for a second, 123 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: there there is a some there's a consensus among scientists 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: that life conforms to a few rules. This is the 125 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: the generally agreed upon definition of life. It's carbon based. 126 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: Anything else is non living. You know, you look at 127 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: a piece of courts it's from silicon, I think not living. 128 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 2: Great example thinks it's programmed by DNA and RNA. Right, 129 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: so it has transcription of its genetic code, and that 130 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: is just it does not live without that. Those things 131 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: are built by amino acids and proteins. Those are the 132 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: basic building blocks of the organism. It's self replicating very important. 133 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: And then it also evolves according to Darwinian principles, which 134 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: is to say that the best properties and traits are 135 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: selected for over time. So if you put all those 136 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: things together, you have a pretty good idea about life. 137 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: But again, this is a really narrow definition, and if 138 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: you really kind of look at it, you're like, this 139 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: is there's a lot of room for other things to 140 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: function in a manner that's living that doesn't necessarily use 141 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: DNA or RNA, that doesn't use amino acids or at 142 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: the very least the amino acids that we use, and 143 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: it might not even be carbon based. Like maybe we 144 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: can broaden this a little bit, and that's the pursuit 145 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: of shadow biosphere. 146 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Carol Cleland was right in the money said 147 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: she wrote a book. It's really a paper, but you know, 148 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: she could bind it like a book, probably sell it 149 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: in a store, sure, But it was called the Possibility 150 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: of Alternative Alternative Microbial Life on Earth. We're also going to, 151 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, talk a little bit about looking on other planets, 152 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: because we've talked a lot about that and suffice to say, 153 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: when we're looking for life on other planets where you know, 154 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: we're always looking for like an earth like place where 155 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: something like life as we know it could exist kind 156 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: of in the same way. But she was like, this 157 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: stuff might be right under our noses, everybody right, And 158 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: here's a paper about it, and I think it was 159 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: pretty smart paper. There was a should we talk about 160 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: the central dogma? 161 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, I think we need to. 162 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, you went over what life on 163 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: Earth contained, but the central dogma is a little more specific. 164 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: It was first proposed by Francis Crick in the nineteen fifties. 165 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: That is that DNA, the nucleic acid that we know 166 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: and love, has instructions for building all the proteins that 167 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: are required for something to be alive. You also have RNA, 168 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: which copies those instructions to take them to the ribosomes, 169 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: which also exists. Because that reads that RNA and assembles everything, 170 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: all those amino acids to make each protein, and bada 171 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: bing bada boom, you have life. 172 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: Right, And so you take that process and you end 173 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: up with what's called the origin of life, the genesis 174 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: of life here on Earth. 175 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: Genesis. 176 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: We've talked about that. That's the scientific way of. 177 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: Saying, well, okay, we go put on my lab coat. 178 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: We've talked about this before multiple times. Remember we did 179 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: an episode on panspermia. We've done a bunch of episodes 180 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: that I think this primordial soup came up. And that's 181 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: the whole idea that either in some shallow tidal pool 182 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: or you know, some warm part of the ocean or 183 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: some body of water, there was a bunch of those 184 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: basic building blocks of life, amino acids, proteins floating around 185 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: and that somehow a self replicating process got kickstarted. And 186 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: the self replicating process is considered what's called a privileged function, 187 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 2: This idea that this mechanism for creating life was present 188 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: at the outset and is still around today, so we 189 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: self replicate. A couple others were metabolism, that's another suggestion 190 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: for the privileged function that kickstarted life. Or then compartmentalization 191 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: like having something to hold all of these processes in 192 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: like a bag of guts. Basically, so one of those 193 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: they say is what was responsible for kickstarting this process 194 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: of life, and that somehow, some a bunch of chemical 195 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 2: reactions started a chain reaction that became self sustaining that 196 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: eventually turned into increasingly complex processes, organelles, and eventually living organisms. 197 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 2: That's how life developed. That's the idea behind the primordial 198 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: soup that the central dogmas based on that's right. 199 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: But in Cleveland's paper, she was like, well, hold on 200 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: a second, that's great, what a story. We love it, 201 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: we all believe it. But what if this happened like 202 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: more than one time. What if it happened multiple times 203 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: right here on Earth there were just different conditions in 204 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: different places, different chemicals came together. And what if that 205 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: happened and these are the shadow microbes? And what if 206 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: this stuff is still there? And the reason that we 207 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: haven't found it is because we're looking for again for 208 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: life that we understand as being alive and the ramifications 209 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: that would have not only to find stuff like that 210 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: here on Earth, but you know this idea that when 211 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: we go out and look in outer space for life 212 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: on other planets again we're looking for earthlike, you know, 213 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: atmospheres and Earth like conditions. She was like, well, what 214 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: if we're looking on the entirely wrong planets. There could 215 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: be stuff that's alive because we're just not looking in 216 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: the right places because we have such a narrow definition. 217 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we definitely have found increasingly extremophile organisms, like 218 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: for a long time we thought that organisms couldn't survive 219 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 2: past one hundred and twenty something degrees farenheight. Then we 220 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: found some extremophiles that can survive around hydro thermal events 221 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: that are as hot as two hundred and twelve degrees farentheight. Like, okay, 222 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: that's pretty awesome, but it's still life as we know it, 223 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: you know, like they're crazy in their adaptation, but they 224 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: still function according to the properties of life as we 225 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: know it. What Carol Cleland and others are saying is like, Okay, 226 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: we'll keep looking in even more extreme and vironments and 227 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: eventually you may find something that has had to adapt 228 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: to such an extreme environment. It uses different processes or 229 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: different raw materials that life as we know it could 230 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: not possibly use. And there you have your first shadow 231 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: bio organism. 232 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: I think we should pick a great rest here. Rest. 233 00:13:24,840 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 2: We'll be back everybody after this rest. 234 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: And lo, the podcasters rested low and then on day 235 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: two they got on with the show. We should mention, 236 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: by the way, we did a pretty good episode on extremophiles, yeah, 237 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: a while back, So just if you haven't heard it, 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: you should just look up on the search engine of 239 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: your choice extremophile so if you should know, pretty neat. 240 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: But back to the shadow biosphere. You know, we mentioned 241 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, Carol Cleveland's beating that drum, saying, 242 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: what if it's not something that we recognize because we 243 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: just don't recognize it as life as we know it. 244 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: And then she started digging in and she was like, 245 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: here's the thing. DNA and RNA aren't the only building 246 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: blocks of life. In theory. They are made of base 247 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: pairs of nucleic acids. For DNA, it's a D nine 248 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: cyanine quinine, and thymine. For RNA it's thymine that is 249 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: swapped out for ucell. But there are other three are 250 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: the same, but there are more nucleic I believe there's 251 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: six more nucleic acids that exists exist in nature. So 252 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, why are we not even considering the fact 253 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: that those could be a part of life in a 254 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: way that we don't fully understand. 255 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: Right, And first, ursill sounds like over the counter urinary 256 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: tract infection treatment totally does. Secondly, I could not, for 257 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: the life of me and I really looked find what 258 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: the other six nucleic acids are. I can't find it, Chuck. 259 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: But in that search I did come across something called 260 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: the hatch emoji DNA, which is those four at, which 261 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: is always together in GC, which are always together to 262 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: form those base pair nucleotides that eventually build up into DNA. 263 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: And they added p z B and. 264 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: S and let's see them right. 265 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, that's four, so there's still two many. But the 266 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: really interesting thing that they found is that if you take, 267 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: if you rearrange say the original four bay pairs, or 268 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: you add these other brand new four base pairs and 269 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: run them through a ribosome, the ribosome, if you arrange 270 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: it correctly, and they're made of nucleic acids, the ribosome 271 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: will be like, okay, I'm transcribing this, So it's entirely possible. 272 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: They proved that it's possible that life could have evolved 273 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: separately from us by using different amino acids but similar mechanisms. 274 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: So maybe we are or could be, in this sense 275 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: distantly related to them, like maybe in the primordial soup, 276 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: but it branched off so early that for all intents 277 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: and purposes, it's non living life as far as our 278 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: definition of life goes. 279 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, nice job finding four of those six letters. 280 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,119 Speaker 1: At least, let's just call the other two FU. 281 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: Science. 282 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's how DNA and RNA could be you know, 283 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: different as we know it. The same thing is true 284 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: for amino acids. All the proteins are built from the 285 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: same combination of twenty amino acids, because when Earth formed, 286 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: those were the twenty amino acids that, in a Darwinian sense, 287 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: were most successful making proteins that survived when life emerged. 288 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: There are five hundred we're not gonna name them, five 289 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: hundred other amino acids, or more than five hundred amino 290 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: acids on Earth. So yeah, totally. So it's just the 291 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: fact that Earth started when it did that those particular 292 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: twenty amino acids were the ones that were good at 293 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: doing what needed to be done to make things that 294 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 1: survived here. But it could have been, you know, at 295 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: a different time. It could have been any other combination 296 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: of amino acids, and they're. 297 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: Still out there exactly. So a lot of scientists are like, well, 298 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: that just goes to show you that life as we 299 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: know it is the only kind of life. If we're 300 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 2: using the same twenty amino acids and there's all these 301 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: others out there, these are the ones that got selected 302 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: for These are the ones that worked in the primordial 303 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: soup and caroclelans forward again with her index finger raised 304 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: and says, Okay, I can see where you're coming from. 305 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: But again, as I said before, if life emerged in 306 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: other places, in other situations, under other conditions, in the 307 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: primordial soup, it's entirely possible that completely different combinations of 308 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: the other kinds of amino acids were the most usable, 309 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: and we're selected for that. And again, this is how 310 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: the shadow of biosphere could have started. And another petri 311 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 2: dish got dropped. And these guys are starting to second 312 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: guess undermining Carol Cleland, or even attempting to because she 313 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: just keeps facing them over again. 314 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're like, well, how would that have happened 315 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: or how could that happen? She said, I don't know. 316 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: How about a meteor sucker because meteorites have fallen to 317 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: the Earth and asteroids that basically plant stuff on Earth 318 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: that come from another place. There have been meteorites that 319 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: have fallen that are carrying up to eighty other amino acids. 320 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: And her whole theory is it like, what if this 321 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: has happened, and maybe it's happened repeatedly, and again we 322 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: just don't know about it because we're not looking correctly, right. 323 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: So, yeah, the panspermia episode that was the basis of it, 324 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: that Earth got seated with the necessary ingredients for life 325 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 2: from space. Right, that's right. So there's another peculiar aspect 326 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: of life as we know it that doesn't really make 327 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: sense to us, and I don't fully get how it 328 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: would tie into the shadow biosphere. So if you do, 329 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: let me know. But the best I can understand is 330 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,239 Speaker 2: that because we don't know it, and because it's like 331 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: it just seems like a random, arbitrary development in life 332 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: as we know it, that it suggests things could go 333 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: the other way and maybe they have elsewhere on Earth. 334 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: Is that how you read it too? 335 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think so. Okay, just like an example of like, 336 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: see this can happen. 337 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, good, That's what I'm taking as too. And 338 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: we're talking about chirality, and chiralness is handedness and Greek 339 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: you're either right handed or you're left handed, or you 340 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: could be ambidextrous. But that's neither hum nor there. When 341 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: we're talking about cellular biology or molecular science, which is 342 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: what this pertains to, and if you make a bunch 343 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: of sugars or a bunch of amino acids in the lab. 344 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 2: Some are going to be left handed and some are 345 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: going to be right handed. But as far as life 346 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: on Earth is concerned, only left handed amino acids and 347 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: only right handed sugars can be useful as the building 348 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 2: blocks of life. So there's right handed amino acids and 349 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: left handed sugars, but they are completely useless to us 350 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 2: because all life on Earth only uses left handed amino 351 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: acids and only uses right handed sugars. And we just 352 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: don't know why. 353 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if this sounds like, all right, guys, what 354 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: are you talking about here with these hands, it's not hands, 355 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: it's the direction that their atoms are oriented. Yeah, they 356 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: talk about it in terms of handedness. I think just 357 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: as a well, I hate to say it is a shorthand. 358 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: So dumb humans like us can understand what they're talking 359 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: about at least halfway right. 360 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: And so, because there's left handed and right handed amino acids, 361 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: they are mirror images of one another. They're constructed the 362 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: exact same way. They're constructed with the exact same components 363 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: to make up these molecules, but they are mirror images. 364 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: So if you overlay them, they're not twins mirror images. 365 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: So in exactly the same way. If you hold your 366 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: hands out in front of you, palms down so the 367 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: tops up, and you just kind of hold one over 368 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: the other, they're not twins. They're mirror images of one another. 369 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: And that's exactly true with amino acids and sugars. They 370 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: each have a mirror image. And again, only one kind 371 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: is useful to life. The other ones just get spit out. 372 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 2: So what if, again, under different conditions, at some point 373 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: in the past, there were organisms that learned to use 374 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: the other kind left handed sugars and right handed amino acids, 375 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: that would certainly qualify as a shadow biosphere bioorganism. 376 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have synthesized these in labs. But what's 377 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: the deal. What I don't understand. If they were able 378 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: to synthesize it, that means that it did already exist, 379 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: but it just isn't anything that was alive. 380 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know exactly what they did. They built 381 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 2: a cell that uses right handed sumino acids. Yeah, yeah, 382 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: and they I don't know if it was living or not. 383 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: I don't think it was living or else they would 384 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: be like we created artificial life here. I don't think 385 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: anyone's ever done that. I think they just created the 386 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: structure of it. Like if there if there was something 387 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: like a cell that use that kind of stuff, this 388 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: is what it would be structured as. The whole reason 389 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: they built it was to try to attract things like 390 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: chiro viruses that function using the opposite stuff that we 391 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: use for life. It was a honeytrap, is the way 392 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: that they put it. 393 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: Like they take it out to a club and set 394 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: it on a bar table and they're like, hello, everybody, 395 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: exactly right. 396 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: So nothing came along and took the bait, But that 397 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's not there. The better argument against things 398 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 2: like that living, if you asked me that I ran across, 399 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: is that if you did have something like that that 400 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 2: could consume other things, it would have no natural predators. 401 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: It would it would not be able to be infected 402 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: by any of the known viruses we have. It would 403 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: be unstoppable, and it would replicate in such an unchecked 404 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: manner that it would apocalyptically destroy the food web based 405 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: on whatever, you know, one microbe that it feasted on. 406 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: And because that's not happen, and there's a pretty good 407 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 2: chance that there's no such thing as that. 408 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess now we can talk a little bit 409 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: about the last universal common ancestor or the LUCA, which 410 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: is the idea that all life on Earth can be 411 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: traced back to this very first functioning cell that started 412 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: the whole party. If we believe in something like the 413 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: shadow biosphere, there can still be a last universal common ancestor, 414 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: I think in terms of what created our life. But 415 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: we have to consider the fact that there were multiple 416 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: genesis that happened at a certain point and you know, 417 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: maybe they just didn't evolve because you know, part of 418 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: that opening four things that we talked about was that 419 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: things evolved in a sort of the Darwinian sense that 420 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: we recognize. But the idea of the shadows biospheres, maybe 421 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: these things did occur at various sort of calm periods 422 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: on Earth where there weren't you know, ice ages, or 423 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't being bombarded by asteroids, and that there's still 424 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: they just never evolved. They're just sort of trapped. 425 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one example. There's another explanation that they might 426 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: be in places we haven't explored yet, so like there 427 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: could be you know, life on the surface of Earth 428 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: and then we find microbes all the way down to 429 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: some you know level and it gets too hot for them, 430 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: and then it's a dead zone. Well maybe beyond the 431 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: dead zone there's these you know, shadow biosphere organisms. And 432 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 2: then another argument I saw against the idea. So a 433 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: lot of scientists are like, sure, it's entirely possible there 434 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: were different origins of life, but the other one sputtered out, 435 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: only ours continued on a lot of that's not a 436 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: very controversial idea. What's controversial is that it didn't sputter out, 437 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: that they just evolved and we share Earth with them, right, 438 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: But a lot of the arguments against that state that, Okay, 439 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: well maybe it did make it beyond the sputtering stage, 440 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: and it was you know, we shared the primordial soup 441 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: with it, but it got absorbed into us and now 442 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: it's a part of us, but you know, not really anymore. 443 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: And that misses the point because what they're talking about 444 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: is lateral gene transfer, where like say one cell just 445 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: takes over another cell and they share DNA from that 446 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 2: point on. That's totally missing the point. Like that would 447 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: not be a shadow organism, it'd be an early additional 448 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: ancestor to us. This is stuff that we couldn't possibly have, 449 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, mixed with to become us or else it 450 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: wouldn't be a shadow bio organism. It would just be 451 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: another component that created life as we know. 452 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: Would That's right, And lateral gene transfer was totally an 453 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: a cappella skiking group from the seventies, a gospel group, oh, 454 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: led by a guy named Gene Nice. 455 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: Nice. 456 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got the record. It's not even a joke. 457 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 2: Are you kidding? You're not kidding? Ah, wow, you did 458 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: get me. That was finally, Well, we're pretty wacky, so. 459 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: Oh goodness. It is a meal, best serve cold. 460 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: Do you do you want to take a break and 461 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 2: savor that for a little while. 462 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, sure, let's go ahead and take a break. 463 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: I'm going to take another nap and dream about getting 464 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: Josh and then we'll be right. 465 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: Back, all right, Chuck. So we said that, or I 466 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: should say, you said at the outset that nobody's looking 467 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 2: for you know, some silicon were wolf or something so great. 468 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: So instead there were we're looking for my crubs. And 469 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: the reason that everybody agrees if there is a shadow 470 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: by its microbial life is a couple of reasons. One 471 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: we could look at a microbe and look right past it. 472 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 2: They don't have faces, they don't have tails, they don't 473 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: have hair, they don't really have any features that would 474 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: really stand out just visually. We have to really examine 475 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: them to find the differences that we would be looking for. 476 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 2: And then on top of that, we've only cultured and 477 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: described less than one percent of all of the estimated 478 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: species of microbes on Earth, right so we have very 479 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: little understanding in the big picture of the microbial life 480 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: we share Earth with. So it's entirely possible we just 481 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: haven't stumbled upon one yet. But that doesn't mean it's 482 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: not there in that other ninety nine percent of the 483 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: kinds of microbes on Earth with us right. 484 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, for sure. And you know we've kind of 485 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: walked around this very plain statement. But the plain statement 486 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: is look where we think or look where we so 487 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: far think that nothing here can live, because that might 488 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: be a great place to start, you know, if we're like, 489 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: nothing can live in the dead sea micro organisms, because 490 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: it's just it's so full of saline that we just 491 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: know nothing could live, Like, well, maybe start there, or 492 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier the fact that things we didn't think 493 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: anything could sustain life greater than like one hundred and 494 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: twenty two degrees fahrenheit. But then we discovered colonies of 495 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: bacteria that could. We're like, well, that's evidence right there 496 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: that maybe we should look in like really really hot places, 497 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: really really cold places, really acidic places, really base places. 498 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: Anything on the list that says human life can't exist there, 499 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: maybe start looking there. 500 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: What's crazy is when we have looked there, we keep 501 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: finding stuff that can exist, like life that yeah, doing 502 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: just fine there that just should not be there. The 503 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: best example I found are types of I think slime 504 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: mold maybe or algae that it lives in abandoned uranium 505 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 2: minds so this place is so crazy radioactive, No life 506 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: should be able to survive there, and yet they think 507 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: these things are actually taking that radiation and using it 508 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: as chemical energy. And then there's also a kind of 509 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: single cellular life that they found growing in one of 510 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: the abandoned chernobyl reactors. Again should not be aware because 511 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: of the radioactivity. But these things still conform to the 512 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: basic principles of life as we know it. The point is, though, 513 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: is you just keep thinking in more and more extremes, 514 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: and you know, maybe we'll find it like the upper 515 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: atmosphere is the one that suggested because no life's supposed 516 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: to be able to live up there because of the 517 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: cosmic rays and the temperature and all that stuff. It's 518 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: just not a pleasant place to live from what I understand. 519 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: And then other people are like, Okay, if we keep 520 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: looking and in these more extreme environments and we're just 521 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: finding life as we know it, maybe we should look 522 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: around and see if we find anything weird in places 523 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: like right under our very noses. And one of the 524 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: big ones that has been touted is desert varnish. And 525 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: this one, from what I can tell, is still the 526 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: jury's out whether it's a shadow bio organism. 527 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah or not or not. You're hanging out there like 528 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: a chad. So yeah, if you've ever been out to 529 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: the desert in the United States, if you've ever driven 530 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: around like Utah or Arizona, maybe even Colorado, maybe New Mexico, 531 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: you might have been driving along and seeing like a 532 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: very sheer sort of cliff face, and within that cliff 533 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: face you might be like, oh, that's just weird, sort 534 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: of shiny, dark area of it. There are always really 535 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: arid environments. Indigenous peoples used to create petroglyphs, so instead 536 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: of like you know, writing on something, they would scrape 537 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: away that varnish to make their art for the original 538 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: lighter colored earth underneath it. But I mean, I've seen 539 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: these things in person. I've driven by it, and I 540 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: didn't know what it was. I just figured it was 541 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: dark rock or something. But it's called desert varnish, and 542 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: scientists have been fascinated for a long long time. One 543 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: reason is because it grows about the pace of a 544 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: width of the human hair every millennium, and because that 545 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: happens so slowly, they were like, well, this is just 546 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: a geological process that's going on, maybe the sun hitting it, 547 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: some sort of chemical reaction takes place. But they found 548 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: that that's it's actually a living thing, right. 549 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: They don't know there's no geochemical process that accounts for it. 550 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 2: There's no biological process that accounts for it. They just 551 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: don't know. It's largely manganese in nature. But the problem 552 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 2: is it's not drawing manganese out of the rock, like 553 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: a lot of these rocks don't have any manganese or 554 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: have such trace amounts that it certainly wouldn't account for 555 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: this desert varnished. So they just don't know how this 556 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: stuff is growing or what it is. But it's probably 557 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: the greatest contender right now for a shadow organism from 558 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: what I can tell. Like they're like, well, then it 559 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: must be a geochemical process. We just don't understand. And 560 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: it's like, maybe what you're calling geochemical is actually life 561 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 2: in a different manner. 562 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess there's just said the theory that it's 563 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: alive that is biochemical. 564 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. There was also one that was like we founded everybody, 565 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: we found the shadow organism and it went downhill from 566 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: there back in twenty ten. 567 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was gfag dash one that is a bacterium 568 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: that was found in Mono Lake, California, And they were like, well, 569 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: this bacterium is really weird because it doesn't it's not 570 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: sort of playing by the rules that we understand. Because 571 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: if you're going to be a living thing to make 572 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: DNA and RNA, you need phosphorus, and it doesn't look 573 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: like this thing is using phosphorus. It looks like it's 574 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: using arsenic, which would be a huge, huge mind And 575 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: so they thought GFA j dash one, you're you're the dude, 576 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: And everyone was really hot on this idea, and then 577 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: they did follow up experiments and very sadly found out 578 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: that it used very very very small amounts of phosphorus 579 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: and it just wasn't instantly evident. So they're like, all right, 580 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: just another extremophile. That's that we understand. 581 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, now we know. 582 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: So cool. 583 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 2: That's another benefit of it, Like we're finding stuff because 584 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: we're out looking for shadow life. We're finding other life 585 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 2: still too, So that's I mean, it's not like they're like, oh, 586 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: another extra file. It's never been seen in the history 587 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: of humanity. 588 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: Just juke it. 589 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: That's an interesting way that you pronounced that. I've been 590 00:34:52,840 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: in my head pronouncing it gufage, you know. So okay, 591 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 2: let's move on. Let's move on to life with the 592 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 2: y chuck, because I think that that's a good next 593 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: place to start. 594 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a guy. Well here's the idea, is that, like, hey, 595 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: maybe there is just we should just accept the idea 596 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: that l i f E isn't all we think it is, 597 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: and maybe it's broader than that and maybe or maybe 598 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: we just need another definition l y f E. And 599 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: I think that was put forward by an astrobiologist named 600 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: Stuart Barleot not Bartlett, just Barlatch, And he said, well, 601 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: maybe that is the l y f E definition is 602 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: just any system and this is a quote any system 603 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: that fulfills all four processes of the living state, namely dissipation, 604 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: auto catalysis, catalysis either one, catalysis, homeostasis, and learning. 605 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so just to get into it real quick, dissipation 606 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: means that it dissipates energy or something like waste brought 607 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: byproducts like heat. That's a big one. Or else it'll 608 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: overheat and die, or it will never poop out its 609 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 2: food and will die from that. That's it's just a 610 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: really easily overlooked component of something organism that can keep going. Also, 611 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 2: it needs to be able to make more copies of itself. 612 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: That's that auto calysis, catalysis, auto catalysis, Sure, that's that's 613 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: important because what it's doing is it's creating a process 614 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: that creates another version of itself and also a product 615 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 2: that triggers that process over again, so it can just 616 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: keep going. It also has to be able to maintain homeostasis, 617 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: so it can't just go totally haywire anytime you know, 618 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: somebody nearby coughs. And then lastly, it's got to be 619 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: able to record information about the environment like this is 620 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 2: how you keep from going haywire when somebody coughs, and 621 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,959 Speaker 2: it can be encoded in some way, shape or form, 622 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 2: so it can be passed on to the replicants of itself. Yeah, 623 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: that's life with a why. And I think that's exactly 624 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: the kind of broadened definition that we need. And the 625 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 2: other thing about life with a why, that includes life 626 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 2: with an eye, like life as we know it, and 627 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 2: just saying life with an eye is so much less 628 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 2: clunky than life as we know it, and it falls 629 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: under a larger umbrella. So it's a broader definition that 630 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 2: includes life as we know it, but also potentially includes 631 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 2: members of the shadow biosphere as well. 632 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what this potentially means is if there is 633 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: life with a why here or elsewhere, that means that 634 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,919 Speaker 1: kind of anything is possible. It doesn't mean that, hey, 635 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: there's intelligent life out there, but it doesn't mean there's not. 636 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: I mean it would certainly kind of interest toward that idea. 637 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: In a very real way, we found that there is 638 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: a different kind of life we just never understood before 639 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: here or elsewhere. There's an astrophysicist named Paul Davies really 640 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: smart guy obviously who has done a lot of scholarship 641 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: work about intelligent life elsewhere, and he talks about timing 642 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: a lot, like, you know, Earth happened the way it did, 643 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like what we touched on earlier. 644 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 1: Earth happened the way it did because of the timing 645 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: of it all. We've been around for about four and 646 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: a half billion years, and we won't be around in 647 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: about a billion years, Like the Earth will be scorched 648 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: basically by the Sun, and it was just sort of 649 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,479 Speaker 1: cosmic luck that everything evolves when it did as it did, 650 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: because there's a kind of a short window in the 651 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: grand scheme of things between when something starts happening and 652 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: being able to get to the point where you have 653 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: like intelligent life like human beings and the planet being 654 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: scorched or being blasted away by a large Yeah. 655 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 2: So Paul Davies's argument kind of suggests that life is 656 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: probably pretty rare, if not singular, like the only we 657 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 2: do know that life emerged once in the entire universe 658 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 2: that led to us in all life as we know it, 659 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: but that's it. We don't know that life emerged anywhere 660 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: else any other time, including on Earth. And that's one 661 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: of the things that would make detecting a shadow biosphere 662 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 2: so amazing, is it would it would essentially immediately say 663 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: the universe is teeming with life. If life developed two 664 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: different ways on the same planet. That strongly suggests that 665 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 2: not only is there life elsewhere in the universe, but 666 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 2: that biology is as immutable a cosmic or universal law 667 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 2: as physics or chemistry. Right that if you have even 668 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 2: just a few components put together that that gives rise 669 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: to life, biology is going to take over and life will. 670 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 2: That's ultimately the most exciting thing that gets scientists jazzed 671 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: about looking for the shadow biospheres. What the implications that 672 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: we'll have about us sharing life elsewhere in the universe. 673 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally pretty cool stuff. 674 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, I like it, Chuck, I'm glad that we 675 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 2: did this. Thanks for doing it with me. 676 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: It was fun. We got through it. 677 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we did well. Since we got through it, everybody, 678 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 2: that means it's time for listener. Mayo. 679 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just read this one from Joel because it's 680 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of just a fun little little ditty. Hey, guys, 681 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: I guess it's not a diddy. It's a story. First off. 682 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: I want to say thanks for all the work you 683 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: do to create an enjoyable and informative listening experience. I've 684 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: been a casual listener since twenty eighteen, and your show 685 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: has positively redirected the course of my day or staved 686 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: off boredom through long winter nights. Because I live on 687 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: Salt Spring Island, BC, off the coast of Vancouver Island 688 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: and work at a golf course there. Today I was 689 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: mowing the fairways on a wet and dreary morning. I 690 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: put on the Manson Murders podcast and relax into my work. 691 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: Part Way through, Dennis Wilson came into the story and 692 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: Chuck mentioned his solo album. I think it's called Pacific 693 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: Ocean Blue. 694 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know. 695 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: I think so great record. Feeling a little low, I 696 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: decided to pause the podcast and listen to the full album. 697 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: I listened to all the songs as I continued my 698 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: mo lines. Truly a wonderfully enjoyable album. Thank you for 699 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: that excursion into the music. Once the album finished, I 700 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: listened to the mower for a few minutes and then 701 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: resumed the podcast. And the first words I hear are 702 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: Chuck saying Eventually they leave Dennis Wilson's house and I 703 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: chuckled as I genuinely felt I had just been in 704 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: his house myself. 705 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 2: Nate. 706 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: Anyway, short little story for me. Thank you for the 707 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: years of entertainment. Keep up the great work that is 708 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: from Joel. And Joel sent a picture of that fairway 709 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: mode while listening to Pacific Ocean Blue and Joel as 710 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: a beautiful golf course and I would love to play 711 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: it one day. 712 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: Oh, very nice. Yeah you're a golfer. I forget that 713 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 2: sometimes I am. 714 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 1: I'm not very good, but I enjoy putting the phone 715 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: away for five hours and walking around with my buddies 716 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: in the sunshine. 717 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 2: Very nice. Well, thanks a lot, Joel, much appreciated. We 718 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: love stories like that, And if you want to be 719 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 2: like Joel, send us an email. Send it off to 720 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 721 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 722 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 723 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.