1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky listener discretion advised. In two 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: thousand and five, the English Heritage team working on restoring 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: Apethorpe Haul in Northamptonshire made a phenomenal discovery. Their job 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: wasn't an easy one. Though Apethorpe had once been a 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: magnificent estate that hosted Tutor and Jacobean Royalty over the centuries, 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: it had fallen into disrepair, first during a period where 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: it was used as a youth detention facility, and then 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: later when it was purchased, presumably as an investment by 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: a Libyan businessman who never spent a single night there. 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: The palace was crumbling, and the only reason it even 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: lasted long enough to be protected by the English government 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: was because of an elderly gardeners caretaker who continued working 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: without salary to block windows, stop leaks and chase away 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: would be vandals. When the English Heritage restoration began, the 16 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: magnificence of the house slowly became apparent again. There were 17 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: centuries old grotesque wall paintings that had been covered in 18 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century and plaster freezes hidden under attic floorboards. 19 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: But the best discovery was in the chamber that had 20 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: originally been built in order to accommodate the visits of 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: King James the First. James the First also known as 22 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: James the sixth in Scotland, frequently visited Apethorpe. It was 23 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: the estate he spent the most time at outside of 24 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: his own palaces, and in his bedchamber, the restoring team 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: removed a wall of plaster to uncover a secret passageway. 26 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Passageway that led to the room that would have been 27 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: occupied by the King's favorite George Villiers, the first Duke 28 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: of Buckingham. A secret passageway between the bedrooms of two men, 29 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: just normal platonic dude stuff. If you know King James 30 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: at all, it's probably because of the Bible that bears 31 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 1: his name, or the episode on this podcast we did 32 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: about his habit of witch hunting. Neither of those two 33 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: character traits seemed particularly aligned with the other big thing 34 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: about King James that he had a pattern of selecting 35 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: close male favorites. These relationships were absolutely intimate, undeniably romantic, 36 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: and probably sexual, although that's a matter of much debate 37 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: even today among scholars. Personally, I defer to Antonia Fraser's view, 38 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: which she wrote in her nineteen seventy five biography of 39 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: the King quote in sexual matters, it is generally better 40 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: to assume the obvious unless there is some very good 41 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: reason to think otherwise. And that was decades before they 42 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: found the secret bedroom tunnel. Whatever the extent of the 43 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: physical relationship between King James and George Villiers, the relationship 44 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: itself reshaped English politics. George went from being a minor 45 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: second son of landed gentry to a duke, a meteoric 46 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: rise that first delighted and then terrified and threatened other noblemen. 47 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: King James had been in his late forties when they 48 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: met George. In his early twenties. The young man had 49 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: been thrust into court by his ambitious mother Mary, who 50 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: saw her handsome son as a key into high society. 51 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: But even she could not have imagined just how successful 52 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: George would be. But no one can rise forever, and 53 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the intimate jealous closeness that George and James shared might 54 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: have in the end cost them both their lives. I'm 55 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: Danish schwartz, and this is noble blood. 56 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be speaking today with Benjamin Wooley, a 57 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: professor at Goldsmith's University of London and the author of 58 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: The King's Assassin, which was the basis of the new 59 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: television series Mary and George that's finally available in the US. 60 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled to be talking with you. Thank you 61 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 2: so much for being here. Thank you. 62 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 3: I look forward to it. 63 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: So let's start with Georgie's early life. Though obviously he 64 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,559 Speaker 2: would have this meteoric rise through court politics, his early 65 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: prospects were extremely limited. You write that he was the 66 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: second son of a father who had already been married 67 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: and already had earlier sons from that marriage. So what 68 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: did that mean in terms of George's future in the 69 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: seventeenth century. 70 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 3: Well, being a second son at that particular time was 71 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: not a comfortable position to be in. So they stood 72 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: to inherit nothing. Under the system of primogeniture that's called 73 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: where the eldest son inherits everything in the family. If 74 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 3: there's an eldest son, that obviously means they're in line 75 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: to get that. So the second son has nothing, and 76 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: that can make life extremely difficult. I mean you kind 77 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: of see it now, don't you. In the relationship between 78 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: I don't know, Princes William and Harry. It's a complex, 79 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: difficult relationship. It's a difficult position for people like Harry. 80 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: You know, you have the air and the spare and 81 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,559 Speaker 3: that was very much the case for second sons, even 82 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 3: more so right through the entire system as it worked 83 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: in that time. And George was, as you say, in 84 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: an even worse position because he wasn't even in the 85 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 3: first family. He was a second son in a second family, 86 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: so his prospects were bleak. And a kind of measure 87 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: of that is that if you look through the history 88 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: of that time, people who were in his position who 89 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: came from sort of I suppose, middling gentry rings, so 90 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: they went from the aristocracy. But there weren't peasants by 91 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: any stretch of the imagination, but this sort of gentry class. 92 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 3: It was really difficult for them, and they would do 93 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 3: things like well what notably, a lot of them piled 94 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 3: at well, not that many, but some of them piled 95 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: on a ship and set off for Virginia in the 96 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: US to set up Jamestown. The people who did that 97 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: was a really motley crewe who were made up of 98 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: a lot of second sons, who had nothing else to do. 99 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 3: So that was his predicament, that was his situation, and 100 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: that is what makes made for me his story and 101 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: his mother's role in that story all the more remarkable. 102 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: So from a pretty early age, his mother is able 103 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: to see some sort of potential in him. What does 104 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: she see in him? And then how does she cultivate that? 105 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: Well, she sees some potential in him and some lack 106 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: of potential in her eldest son, John. So the eldest 107 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: who would inherit whatever fortunes of the family made was 108 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: I think, right from the start, clearly had a problem 109 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 3: of some sort I mean in more modern turns where 110 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 3: you'd say had some sort of mental illness, probably congenital 111 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: mental illness, because it seemed to show up quite early on, 112 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: and it certainly manifested itself in violent ways later on 113 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: in his life. So he was a difficulty and she 114 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: couldn't see what she could do with him, because she 115 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: was determined, a very determined woman who was going to 116 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: try and sort of get the ranking she thought she deserved. 117 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: She thought her and her family she came from this 118 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 3: family which she later claimed was related to five kings 119 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: of your Europe. I mean, that's highly debatable, but she 120 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 3: nevertheless thought she came from a very special line, and 121 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 3: John wasn't going to carry that, not as a reflection 122 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: of her line and background, nor as that of her 123 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 3: husband who died when John and George were just were young, 124 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: who was called Sir George Villiers. So George's father was 125 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: also called George. One of those things that happened throughout 126 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 3: history at that time, causing chaos for those of us 127 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 3: trying to research the families. But she could see that 128 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 3: George was a much better prospect, if you liked, for 129 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: realizing her ambitions than John. He wasn't very scholarly, he 130 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: wasn't very intellectual. 131 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 2: So he wouldn't be a good fit for the church exactly. 132 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 3: So if you're looking at the options that were available, 133 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 3: that's exactly the sort of option that might have been considered. 134 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: But he was obviously he good looking, charismatic, seemed to 135 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: be musical, very good dancer, physically, sort of self assured, 136 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 3: and all those things made it clear that he would 137 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: have a successful time if she could somehow get him 138 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: within the orbit of the royal court. I mean, most 139 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: people it wouldn't have heard in her position, which was 140 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: complicated in any number of ways. I mean, she was 141 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: what was called a waiting woman to a richer relative, 142 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 3: which doesn't mean she was a servant exactly or a 143 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: sort of scullery maid, and her enemies would make her 144 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: out to be as such later on, but she was. 145 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 3: She was in a kind of one of those very 146 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: ambiguous social positions, which was between service, if you like, 147 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 3: in companionship to another higher ranking individual. So she was 148 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: low in the pecking order, and so to even think 149 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 3: about trying to get somebody into the royal court was itself, 150 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: you know, that was a moonshot, as it were, in 151 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 3: talking about the times were in. But nevertheless, she was 152 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: that ambitious, and George seemed to present a prospect as 153 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: somebody who she could just shapen into the sort of 154 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,479 Speaker 3: person who would do the job, would have a possibility 155 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 3: of success. So that was her aim as her singular aim, 156 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 3: and various sort of historical forces basically aligned themselves to 157 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: make this a completely unexpected possibility. 158 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: You wrote that there was the sort of benefit of 159 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 2: the fact that James, obviously, coming from Scotland, had surrounded 160 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: himself sort of with Scottish men. He had had a 161 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: favorite Somerset, who was sort of disliked by nobility, and 162 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: so English nobility had a vested interest in helping to 163 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: propel an English boy into the King's orbit. 164 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: Exactly so, one of the courtiers was complaining how the 165 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 3: English were unable to the beams of his royal sunlight 166 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: or something. I can't quite remember the exact quote, but 167 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 3: they couldn't get a look in literally to the King, 168 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: or well the King's bedchamber, which it wasn't just a bedroom, 169 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: it was the sort of locust of power at the time, 170 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 3: the place where people who counted, so to speak, had 171 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 3: to have access in order to get the King's ear 172 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 3: physically get the king's ear. It was like that. It 173 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: was that kind of court. So they needed a glamorous 174 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: young English boy to catch the King's eye, and George 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: went down to London. His mother obviously sent him down 176 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 3: the King's Way as it was called, down from Leicestershire, 177 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: which is in the midlands of England, down to London, 178 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: and George hung around court. In fact, he nearly ended 179 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 3: up marrying the child of a prominent courtier who died 180 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 3: before a marriage could be achieved. I don't know what 181 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 3: the father's attitude towards it would have been, but the 182 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: executive of the father's will of the bride to bees 183 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: or the prospect of a bride to be, the executors 184 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: of his will just did everything to prevent George wheedling 185 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: his way into the fact that particular family line, so 186 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: he was that whole scheme fell apart. I don't know 187 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: if that was something that Mary was involved in or not. 188 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: The historical record doesn't tell us, but it was some 189 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 3: time and somewhere after that that this group of nobles, 190 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: led by the Earl of Pembroke, initially it seems, got together. 191 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 3: So he was actually Pembroke shows in Wales, and so 192 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: he had Welsh connections, but Wales in England were essentially 193 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: one nation at the time, one kingdom, and so he 194 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: worked to come up with a scheme and George was 195 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 3: pushed forward as the candidate to fulfill that scheme, and 196 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 3: that's when the scheming really began, and it turned out 197 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 3: to be extremely successful, culminating in its first stages with 198 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 3: George catching the King's eye by doing a beautiful dance, 199 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 3: one that we had the privilege of watching being recreated 200 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: for the show. Mary and George. He did this dance 201 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: that caught the King's eye and that is what set 202 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 3: the ball rolling. 203 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: It reminds me of the famous masquerade that Anne Boleyn 204 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: danced in to catch Henry the eighth Side that these 205 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: masquerades were just a market for people to see beautiful. 206 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: People exactly, and they were very effective of that when 207 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: it came to the royal court, and that's a very 208 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: good comparison. It subsequently led to George being knighted and 209 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: being made a Gentleman of the Bedchamber, which means it's 210 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: a kind of ticket to enter and be part of 211 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: the bed chamber. It doesn't mean at this stage anything 212 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: relating to having any kind of physical intimacy with the king. 213 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 3: There were lots of gentlemen of the bedchamber essentially, not 214 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: not just the sort of intermediary between the king and 215 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 3: his people, or more particularly individuals like his Privy counsel 216 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 3: and so on, you know, the people who ran the government. 217 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: It wasn't just that it was also a protective ring 218 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: around him because obviously the monarch was vulnerable. I mean, yes, 219 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 3: an entourage that was there to protect him so had 220 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: to be very closely monitored because within two years of 221 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: James coming down from Scotland when he inherited the English throne, 222 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: because from Scotland and England were two separate kingdoms at 223 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: this time and would remain so throughout James's reign, much 224 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: to his frustration. But he barely got his backside onto 225 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: the throne when somebody tried to blow him up. So 226 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 3: that's the famous gunpowder plot. It was called of sixteen 227 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: oh five. So he was paranoid already. As he put 228 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: it himself, he had been nourished in fear because of 229 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: his extraordinary early years. He inherited the Scottish rome when 230 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: he was still a baby. 231 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: He was a cradle king, of course, And just backing 232 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: up a little for the context, his mother would have 233 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: been Mary, Queen of scott who was beheaded. His father 234 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: was murdered when he was just an infant. This is 235 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: someone who has seen death and destruction since he was 236 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: since he was born. I can't even imagine exactly. 237 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so he'd never had a period when he was 238 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: settled and safe, and that was reflected in his behavior 239 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: throughout his reign in England as well as Scotland. He 240 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: was restless. He would never stay in one place for 241 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: very long. He would tour the country, bankrupting local grandees, 242 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: guy insisting they put him up for a little while, 243 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: and he would, you know, he would hunt, and he 244 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 3: would he would do. He would distract himself with any 245 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: number of entertainments. 246 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: You know. 247 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: He was a great patrol, of course, of the arts 248 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: of the King's Men, which was Shakespeare's troupe of players actors. 249 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: So he was somebody who constantly needed distracting from his fears, 250 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 3: if you like, constantly worried that he was going to 251 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 3: come under attack. So for somebody to get into the 252 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: bedchamber was to give them a level of trust that 253 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: was extremely important and special, and it was how that 254 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: trust was used that would define George's career. 255 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: Before we jump back into George's career, I think it's 256 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: probably worth just taking a moment to address the elephant 257 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: in the room, which is in terms of you mentioned 258 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: James liking distractions. He has a history of male favorites. 259 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: George was certainly not the first male favorite, and historians, 260 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: i think, for centuries have been trying to parse out 261 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: what those relationships were, whether they were physical, whether they 262 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: were sexual, whether they were romantic. What is the conclusion 263 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: you've you've come to in terms of James's relationships with 264 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: his male favorites and George in particular. 265 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 3: Well, I think what i'd say about that, And obviously 266 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: I've been thinking about it a lot, and when I 267 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: was involved in this production as historical consultant, we have 268 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: these extraordinary conversations about what the nature of the intimacy 269 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: was between George and James. You know, they had their 270 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: own reading of that situation. 271 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: Well, television is always more dramatic than history. 272 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not only that it has to be more dramatic. 273 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: It has to really physically show you what's going on. 274 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 3: You know, you can't. 275 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: I mean, you can. 276 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: Obviously be a little bit euphemistic about it. Bedroom Dawes 277 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: can close at vital moments, but that clearly isn't the 278 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 3: way things go at the moment when it comes to 279 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 3: historical drama. So I just should make it absolutely clear. 280 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 3: I love the scripts, I love the people who worked 281 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 3: on it, and I'm really pleased with what they did 282 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: with it. But thinking of this historically, if there's this 283 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 3: key to it, in a way, it's a series of 284 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 3: letters which were helpfully drawn together into an edited so 285 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 3: there was an edited edition of these letters published by 286 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: an American academical bergerom called King James and the Letters 287 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: of homo Erotic Desire, and it is a really good 288 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 3: piece of academic work because he's dug into the letters, 289 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: you know, the references that the letters make to people 290 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: and places and so on are explored. But they also 291 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 3: because they're in a collection, and because when I first 292 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 3: encountered this, I just read it through from beginning to end. 293 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 3: It's an extraordinary collection. Now, if it was a collection 294 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: of letters between a man and a woman, I think 295 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: you would just take it as read that this was 296 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 3: a romantic, intimate sexual relationship. I don't think you would 297 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: start to fret about whether or not it was sexial 298 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: in nature. The complication is obviously that this was the 299 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: same sex relationship and it was being conducted in a 300 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 3: period when, as we see it now, they were much 301 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: more you know, homophobic, whatever term you want to use 302 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: for it. That's where I think it gets tricky. And 303 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: from my perspective as somebody who sort of researched it 304 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: and thought about it, I think part of the problem 305 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 3: is us we assume that the past is always slightly 306 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: more in terms of sexual relationships and politics and that 307 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 3: sort of thing more regressive than as you further you 308 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 3: go back, It's like homophobia just escalates, gets worse and 309 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 3: worse and worse. Although any number of those sorts of 310 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 3: things considered to be wrong. Now that's to use a 311 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: anachronistic concept. I think, to try and think about what 312 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: was going on now. I'm the romantic in the sense 313 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 3: that I do think romance love is something that's probably 314 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: common through various centuries of history. I keep, as it were, 315 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 3: running into it when I'm writing and researching and writing 316 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: the people I write about, But then I consider myself 317 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 3: a biography. I'm always sort of looking for that kind 318 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 3: of thing. 319 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: But how those. 320 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 3: Relationships form and what form they take is if you 321 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 3: look at it through contemporary eyes without bearing in mind 322 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: what was going on at the time, you kind of 323 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 3: lose the picture of what could be happening, what sort 324 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: of relationship it could be. And so if you think 325 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 3: about that time, we're thinking about a time when you know, 326 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: gender fluidity, if you like, was something that was much 327 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: more a part of life. I mean, you've only got 328 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: to think of Shakespeare. Every Shakespeare played I had men 329 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: playing boys and men playing women. 330 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: In some of James's letters, I believe even calls George wife. 331 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, did He made this plea to George. After 332 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 3: James lost his wife Anne of Denmark the Queen, he 333 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: wrote this extraordinary letter to George asking him to be 334 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: his wife, and George reciprocated with very loving letters back 335 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 3: to James. Now, obviously there's a power dynamic here. For example, 336 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: a lot of the criticism, if that's the word of 337 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 3: people from people, particularly in the past, of portraying James 338 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 3: as in inverted commas gay or homosexual, and I'm putting 339 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 3: them in perverted commas because those for concepts would be 340 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: nothing to people who lived in that period. I mean, 341 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: they just wouldn't know what you were talking about. The 342 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: idea of sexuality wouldn't have made any sense to them. 343 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 3: But anyway, so one of the objections to painting their 344 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 3: relationship as being sexual was because of the sodomy laws 345 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 3: of the time and James's support of those laws. But 346 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: there were sodomy laws, they weren't They weren't anti homosexual 347 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 3: laws or same sex relationship laws. They were very specific 348 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: about a very specific physical act, a bit like rape law. 349 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: And I think partly they're because of concerns about power 350 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 3: relations and about how men abusing boys and so on. 351 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: Obviously there are biblical prohibitions against men lying with men, 352 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: as to use the terminology of the Keith James Bible, 353 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: of course, But again I think to read that through 354 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: contemporary eyes, assuming that this is evidence of basically being 355 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 3: sexily regressive in some way, that wasn't you know, that 356 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: wasn't the preoccupation. The preoccupations were in all sorts of 357 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: different directions and concerns, with all sorts of different issues, 358 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 3: theological and otherwise. So I think James could happily have 359 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: an intimate sexal relationship with another man without that without 360 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 3: him thinking that he was breaking really many taboos. I mean, 361 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: sexual acts themselves were taboo in the sense you didn't 362 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: do them in public, you didn't talk about them in public, 363 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: things like that. That more or less applies now that 364 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 3: the idea that the same sex relationship itself was something 365 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: that he had to particularly hide or was particularly concerned about, 366 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: or that it's particularly controversial even to consider. I think 367 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: that's to look at it through an anachronistic lens. 368 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: I think that's so well said. Especially I've read some 369 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 2: people that talk about because for someone who doesn't know 370 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: much of history, they might hear King James and only 371 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: associate him with the Bible. And he was married with 372 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 2: I believe seven children with. 373 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 3: Not all the three yeah, not all. 374 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: The survivors survived. But you know, had had clearly a 375 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: sexual relationship with a woman. But I agree with you 376 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: that I don't think, in my opinion, the reading feels 377 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: like it wouldn't have precluded a romantic or sexual relationship 378 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: with men as well. 379 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: The thing is is what I loved about it was 380 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 3: the romance. It was a very romantic relationship at least 381 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 3: particularly for James, and James for me, emerges from this 382 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 3: story as a fascinating, really fascinating character. And I have 383 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: said to Chap who played him in Mary and George 384 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 3: Tony Curran, I had a long discussion with him before 385 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: he started out on this production. It was a big 386 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 3: you know, it was a massive amount of work for him. 387 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: Six months or so they were filming, and he did 388 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: point out after he'd been filming for a couple of 389 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 3: well maybe a couple of months, I can't remember, but 390 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: he said, when I went to the set one day 391 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 3: and he said it was nice to be able to 392 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 3: talk to me with some clothes on. He you know, 393 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: it was it demanded a great deal of this actor, 394 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 3: and I think Tony did an amazing job of it. 395 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that everyone picks it up, having you know, 396 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: look took the aftermath of the show and some of 397 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 3: the reviews, which is a shame. Not everyone kind of 398 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: sees what I saw. But then, of course I'm seeing 399 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: something seeing it from a very particular perspective. But I 400 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 3: think he pulls out the subtleties of a very very 401 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 3: interesting historical character who is bizarrely almost completely absent from 402 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 3: our historical record as a significant figure. I cannot understand 403 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 3: why that's the case. You know, we've all heard of 404 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 3: Henry the eighth and Elizabeth, but why James the first 405 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: sixth isn't up there with the sort of the big 406 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: names of British monarchy. I have no idea. 407 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 2: I just have to say I also love Tony kran 408 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: I have loved him from the episode of Doctor Who 409 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: where he plays Vincent van goh So anyone who has 410 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: seen that episode of Doctor Who, it's the same wonderful actor. 411 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: Back to George, this close relationship with the king leads 412 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: to a I will say, meteoric rise in court. I believe. 413 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: Is this correct? He's the first non royal family member, 414 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: or the only non royal family member at the time, 415 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: to become a duke. 416 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 3: Yes, dukedoms were generally for members of the royal family, 417 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 3: and that's still the case. Actually, but there were some 418 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 3: other dukedoms I shouldn't, you know, pretend they weren't. I mean, 419 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: for example, the Duke of Norfolk, the Howard family. They 420 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 3: were not. They didn't have direct they had links to 421 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: the royal family, but they're very remote. So there were 422 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 3: dukes around who weren't members of the royal family, but 423 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: nobody had been made a duke for the best part 424 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: of a century. Elizabeth First didn't make any of her 425 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 3: courtier's dukes. She made some lower you know, earls, for example. 426 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: She made no one a duke, and in fact, had 427 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 3: she done so, that would have changed the shape of 428 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: her reign because it implied in some way, I suppose, 429 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: because she was childless, that the person she promoted to 430 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: that position was in line for the throne. Even so, 431 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: you know, it carries a lot of weight, that title. 432 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 3: And indeed, during George's time when he was made duke, 433 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 3: which was around the time well in the midst of 434 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: this amazing escapade, him and Charles hairing off through France 435 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 3: to Spain to try and capture the the hand of 436 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: the Infanta, the Spanish princess. He was made due then, 437 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: but it immediately aroused rumors that he was aiming to 438 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 3: seize the throne. His enemies certainly thought that that was 439 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: a possible motive. In any case, it was the most 440 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: extraordinary promotion, and it was something that elevated the Villiers 441 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: family to a social rank that even Mary, who had 442 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: this very high opinion of her social position, a true 443 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: who if you like, or natural social position, even she 444 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 3: couldn't have imagined that happening. And she became a countess. 445 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: It's a special title. It was one that James basically 446 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 3: bestowed on. It wasn't heritable, but it was one he 447 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 3: just thought, I'm going to make you a countest. I 448 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: think you're such an amazing woman. Here's a countess ship. 449 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: So with Mary becoming a countess, she also gained incredible 450 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: access to the King. George obviously has sort of unprecedented 451 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 2: access to the King's person. Your book is called the 452 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: King's assassin. Can you sort of walk us through what 453 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 2: you've determined about King James's illness and then death with 454 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: regards to George and Mary. Yeah. 455 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 3: So there's two controversies surrounding what I wrote about this. 456 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: One of them is, you know, to just accept that 457 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: George and James had a sex of relationship. But the 458 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 3: other one is that George and Mary were somehow involved 459 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: in James's death. I'm slightly puzzled by both controversies. What 460 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 3: I don't say in the book is that George and 461 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: Mary definitely killed James. There's no way of knowing that 462 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 3: that though, is not, as I see it, the issue. 463 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 3: So I first encountered these two when I was researching 464 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: another book called The Herbalist, about a sort of a 465 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: completely different figure. He was a sort of a radical 466 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: from the Civil War pier called Nicholas Culpepper. His nemesis 467 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 3: was a doctor called William Harvey. Brilliant doctor incidentally discovered 468 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: the circulation of the blood, for example, changed the course 469 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: of medical history, you could say. But William Harvey was 470 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: at James's bedside in his final hours, alongside him with 471 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: these two figures, Mary and George, and I thought, who 472 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: on earth are they, and then they started to interfere 473 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: in the King's care in what was being in the 474 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: medicines dispensed to him. Now, what we do know from, 475 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: among other things, actually spies that were in the King's 476 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 3: court at the time who had that somehow had access 477 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 3: we don't know their names, but who had access to 478 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: the king's bedside and saw what was going on. So 479 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 3: these were people who were reporting back to their spymasters 480 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 3: back in Catholic Europe what was going on. So we 481 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: know something was going on, and what seemed to be 482 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: going on was that Mary and George decided to apply 483 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: a medicine that their own apothecary, Mayor's apothecary to be specific, 484 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: had mixed up as a plaster and potion in James's 485 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: final hours while he was ill with what was diagnosed 486 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 3: fairly familiar disease at the time, malaria, because malaria was 487 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,719 Speaker 3: endemic in England. Then having dismissed the royal doctors from 488 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 3: the King's bedside and then subsequently trying to force them 489 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 3: to sign a declaration to say they had agreed to 490 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: the dispensing of this medicine to James. Having done all 491 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: that leading to James having a series of fits and dying. Now, 492 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 3: he was weak, he was ill. He was not that old, 493 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 3: but he was aging, and he you know, he could 494 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 3: have died of natural causes. But soon after his death 495 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 3: the rumors started to spread that they had poisoned him. 496 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: On paper, it's a little suspicious, but impossible to convict 497 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: based on based on the circumstances. 498 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, but I mean it would be more or 499 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 3: less impossible to convict anyone of any poisoning at that time, 500 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 3: because of course there's no forensic evidence to be had, 501 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 3: and that's not the point. The significance of this is 502 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 3: the impact it had subsequently, because the House of Commons 503 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: set up essentially a sort of secret committee that interviewed 504 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: the doctors and asked them what had happened, and they 505 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 3: used it in order to draw up a case against George, 506 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 3: because by this stage the Parliament, which had once hailed 507 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 3: George as Saint George on horseback, the great champion of 508 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: the people, had turned against him because of his involvement 509 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 3: with Charles, and it poisoned. They may not marry and 510 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: George may not have poisoned James, but what they did 511 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 3: poisoned relationships between parliament and the king. The new king, 512 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: Charles the First, and even when Charles was arrested by 513 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 3: parliamentary forces, so Charles tried to all without Parliament for 514 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: a period basically of two decades or over two decades. 515 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: And the upshot was that Parliament went to war with Charles. 516 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: That was the Civil War. 517 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: They Charles the just for any listeners, Charles the first, 518 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: James's son after James died. 519 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 3: Exactly who inherited the throne here When James died, Charles 520 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: eventually lost to Parliament and was arrested, and one of 521 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 3: the charges brought against him was that he was involved 522 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: in the death of his father. So that rumor had 523 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: been rumbling around through throughout that period, and I think 524 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: that's the aspect of it that makes it so important historically. 525 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 3: And the roots to that was when George and Charles, 526 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: this was when James was still alive, when they went 527 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 3: to Spain to try and see if Charles could marry 528 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: the Infanta, the Spanish king. That would have changed the 529 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 3: geopolitics of Europe. In an instant England, which had been 530 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: a sort of hostile Protestant power, James had tried to 531 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 3: regularize relationships between Britain and Spain that would have secured 532 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: it if that had happened. It didn't happen, and George 533 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 3: has sort of tactically decided, well, if you're not going 534 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 3: to support that, we'll turn against you. James wasn't prepared 535 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 3: to do that. When James died, he was conveniently out 536 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 3: of the way and him and Charles, who subsequently married 537 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 3: a French princess, could pursue a policy of antagonism towards Spain. 538 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 3: And that's what George did. It didn't go well, it 539 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 3: went very badly. In fact, George was not a terribly 540 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: good tactician, you could argue, but he was a really 541 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: interesting politician, and he tried to set up a kind 542 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: of Northern Protestant cluster of nations hostile to Catholic Europe. 543 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: And when I was researching this, Brexit was underway though, 544 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 3: the British referendum which led to the decision to leave 545 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 3: the European Union, and in a sense George was a 546 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 3: sort of proto brexiteer, you could argue. He thought that that, 547 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: you know, Europe should be more open, more Protestant, it shouldn't, 548 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 3: you know, cow taw to the Pope and to the Habsburgs, 549 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 3: who were the royal sort of the royal dynasty that 550 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 3: ruled Catholic Europe. He thought that that that there should 551 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 3: be a challenge to that. America was bound up in 552 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 3: this Jamestown and the founding of Jamestown was during this period. 553 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 3: It was seen as part of this sort of Protestant 554 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 3: this new Protestant order, and one way or another, George 555 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: was at the heart of this. That's why he's a 556 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 3: much more significant figure than maybe we really appreciate him 557 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 3: to be. And that's why a really chunky piece of 558 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 3: scholarship exploring his life and politics is something we need. 559 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 2: One thing I found actually a little touching is that 560 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:24,240 Speaker 2: relationship between George and Charles. Obviously, George had this intimate 561 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 2: relationship with Charles's father, but the age gap between George 562 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 2: and the son Charles is much closer. And once Charles 563 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: becomes king, he really not I feel a little bad 564 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: making this one, but sticks his neck out again and 565 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 2: again for George and protects him. I find that very touching. 566 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 3: Yes, they start off as antagonists because Charles Charles, when 567 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: James is still alive, Charles is feeling neglected by his father, 568 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 3: and he makes a couple of attempts to actually get 569 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 3: George into trouble, and James sticks by George at Charles's expense, 570 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 3: and George turns it around. He actually he actually stages 571 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 3: a kind of banquet, he calls it the Friend's Banquet 572 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 3: or something like that, which to which he invites Charles 573 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: and lots of other sort of leading members of court 574 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 3: to patch up the relationship. And then that's followed up 575 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 3: by then it's just the two of them and about 576 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 3: two others in support who ride across France to Madrid, 577 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: across the Pyrenees, the mountain range that separates France and Spain, 578 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 3: on to Madrid and turn up at the doorstep for 579 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 3: the English ambassadors, frightening the living daylights out of the 580 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 3: port chap because they had no idea that this was 581 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 3: going to happen, and putting the entire sort of future 582 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 3: of the Kingdom at stake in that maneuver, and they 583 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 3: just they're glued together from then then on, and that's 584 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 3: why you know, the poisoning thing comes up. Subsequently, Charles 585 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 3: was at Theobalds, the country retreat where James fell in 586 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: and died. During that time, and so that's why there 587 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 3: was suspicions surrounding Charles that he was plotting with George 588 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 3: and Mary, and George stood by him until George was assassinated. Well, 589 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 3: actually that in itself is an interesting question, but by 590 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 3: one of the naval personnel who claimed he hadn't been paid. 591 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 3: But George was assassinated, and that, in a sense is 592 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 3: one of the first things that leaves Chiles so marooned 593 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 3: politically that civil war is too strong to say it 594 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 3: at that point would have seemed inevitable, but certainly seemed 595 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 3: more likely. 596 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: I would say, I've already kept you and I'm so 597 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: grateful for your time. But before you leave, just one 598 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 2: more quick question. George had this incredible rise, but he 599 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: would die fairly young and fairly tragically when he was assassinated. 600 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 2: Can you speak to that just a little bit. 601 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 3: Once Charles was on the throne, George decided to throw 602 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 3: everything at trying to sort of carve out himself a 603 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 3: role for himself as a kind of military leader of 604 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 3: the Protestant cause. So there was this big tension geopolitically speaking, 605 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 3: between the Protestant countries kingdoms, mostly of Northern Europe, but 606 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 3: very crudely and the Catholic countries of southern Europe, and 607 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 3: he wanted to try and build an alliance actually out 608 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 3: of countries that Protestant countries in the north of Europe. 609 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 3: And he embarked on a number of military campaigns to 610 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 3: do this, and one of them one involved in an 611 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 3: attempt to try and actually go and support of Protestants 612 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 3: in Spain and France with two two missions, and they 613 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 3: went very badly wrong and he was heavily defeated. And 614 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 3: also by this stage under Charles, the regime was running 615 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 3: short of money because these military oppers are very expensive. 616 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 3: Sailors who had been press ganged into taking part in 617 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 3: these expeditions were going unpaid. And there was one of 618 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 3: these figures called the figure called John Felton, who met 619 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 3: George when he was acting as Admiral of the Fleet 620 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 3: and had gone to Portsmouth and had gone to an 621 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 3: inn called the Greyhound. John Felton came up to him 622 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 3: and essentially stabbed him to death. And that assassination sent 623 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 3: shock waves through the entire court because it would it 624 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 3: was going to change everything basically in terms of the 625 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: power dynamics of the of Charles's court and his body 626 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 3: was brought back. His mother was still alive. She was 627 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 3: there to receive the body when it was brought back 628 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 3: to London. And, as I suppose, the last gesture of 629 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 3: the sheer ambition of this rise to power of the 630 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 3: Villiers family, he ordered the most spectacular, arguably spectacularly vulgar 631 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 3: memorial to George, which was took up a whole side room, 632 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 3: so to speak, of the royal part of Westminster Abbey. 633 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 3: In other words, he was buried among the kings and 634 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 3: queens of England and Britain, probably the biggest and gaudiest 635 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 3: memorial of all. Ironically, James is also buried there, but 636 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 3: there's now a plaque, but there was no memorial to him. 637 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 3: There wasn't even a plaque when he was interred in 638 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 3: Westminster Abbey. So those who go to Westminster Abbey can 639 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 3: see George in all his magnificence, and if they just 640 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 3: pop over to the other side of the chapel, they 641 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 3: will also see his mother lying alongside his father, the 642 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 3: one who died when he was young, making her claims 643 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 3: to being the offspring of five rulers of Europe. 644 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 2: They made it all the way to Westminster. 645 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 3: Abbey, they did in Stile. 646 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. This was fascinating to any listeners. 647 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 2: I highly recommend watching the television series wherever it is streaming, 648 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: wherever you geographically are located. Thank you again so much. 649 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 2: What a privilege. 650 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 3: Thank you, It's been great. 651 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 2: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 652 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Manky. Nobel Blood is hosted by me 653 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 2: Danish Forts, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 654 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 2: Hannah Zewick, Courtney Sender, Julia Milani, and Arman Cassam. The 655 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 2: show is edited and produced by Noemy Griffin and rima 656 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 2: Ill Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers 657 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 2: Aaron Manky, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick. Four more podcasts 658 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 659 00:41:51,200 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.