1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: The story I'm about to tell you is a cautionary tale. 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: In October twenty four, I made an appearance on The 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: Tonight Show with Jay Leno to promote my book on 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: presidential paste about them Come out Here More Rocket lad. 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: But it's not my appearance on the show that I regret. 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: It's what happened next. After the taping, I went back 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: to my hotel in Universal City. I hadn't eaten dinner, 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: and the hotel restaurant was offering a seafood buffet. I 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: can still see it now, a sort of banquet table 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: with tears of crab legs. I'm pretty sure there were 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: oysters and dominating the landscape, a mountain of shrimp, a 12 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: glistening pink pyramid. How could I resist? By the time 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: I was on that evening, that bounty of shrimp was 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: less of a pyramid and more of a mound. The 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: next morning, I flew back East, happy as a well clam, 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: but somewhere over the Midwest I started experiencing turbulence and 17 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: inner turbulence. The choppiness subsided only after thirty six hours 18 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: in and out of bed, and I knew what was 19 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: to blame for my condition until that point in my life, 20 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: I was pro buffet, and I thought, I can't believe 21 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: that I did that. Everyone was exhaling on the shrimp, 22 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: and I don't want to eat other people's exhale. 23 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: Right, But probably that came from bad shrimp, not a 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: human breath. 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: It could have been other shrimp's breath. It could have 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: been other shrimp's breath. I mean, let's talk about that. 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Everyone can name something they'd like to see vanished from 28 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: the earth. I'm guessing famine, disease, war top most lists. 29 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: But what are the things just below those that you 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: wish would disappear me? I have at least three, one 31 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: of which made the list that very night in twenty 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 1: oh four. 33 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: That kind of buffet, the sticky tongs and the you know, 34 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: you see somebody who just like dug around to the 35 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: back of the macaroni and cheese try to get like 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: the very best in the back, and then it's all 37 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: kind of growed it out, and it's, oh yeah. 38 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: The second thing on my list. Well, I've never complained 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: when an audience has applauded me like they did that 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: night on Leno, But there's a certain kind of intense, 41 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: exaggerated reaction that over the last few years has become 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: all but meaningless. 43 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: Standing ovations are a bit like an avalanche. Fun person 44 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: stands and then a few other people think, Oh, well, 45 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: I guess we're standing. 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: And please don't make me raise my voice to tell 47 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: you about the third thing on my list that really 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: works my nerves. 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: It's a blight on any neighborhood. It's war without our permission. 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we've paid tribute to beloved entertainers and 51 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: courageous change makers, sitcom characters gone without a trace, even 52 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: iconic college campus trees, people and things that deserve to 53 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: live on in the collective memory. But today I want 54 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: to talk about three things that I really just wish 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: would die already from CBS Sunday Morning and iHeart. I'm 56 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: Morocca and this is mobituaries this moment things I wish 57 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: would die Buffets, standing, ovation, and noise. I was looking 58 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: at this video of a clan of hyenas feasting on 59 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: an elephant carcass, and I thought, is there something in 60 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: our nature that makes us want to gather around this 61 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: trough of food and just go for it? 62 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: Remind me not to go out to dinner with you? 63 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 4: Mo. 64 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: But is there an animalistic nature to eating at a buffet? Probably, 65 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: certainly at some of the buffets I saw there is that. 66 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: That's Kim Severson. She's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who 67 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 1: writes about food and culture for The New York Times. 68 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: She's written about the unexpected comeback of the buffet. Let 69 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: me ask you, didn't we think the pandemic would kill buffets? 70 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that is absolutely the surprise of the post pandemic era. 71 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: I just thought they would never come back. 72 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: Buffets did get creamed early in the pandemic, but the 73 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: Golden Corral chain says their business shot back up twenty 74 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: percent between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. 75 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: Maybe the fact that people had to be so distant 76 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: from their food and other people, they've overcompensated by really 77 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: going hardcore on the buffet. They're like, damn it, I 78 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 2: just want to get my prime rib and my all 79 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: you can eat crab. 80 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 5: Oh. 81 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just don't want whooping cough with my 82 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: Waldorf salad. 83 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 6: Okay. 84 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: I can hear a lot of you saying what is 85 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: most problem with buffets? So let me be clear. What 86 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: makes me uneasy? Are the entirely self served buffets. They're 87 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: sometimes known as hot open food bars, where there is 88 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: no one standing between the food and the mob, no 89 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: food professionals on active duty. That irks me because, let's 90 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: face it, people myself included, revert to our natural state 91 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: when there's not a lady in a hairnet brandishing a 92 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: ladle and glaring at us to mind our manners. 93 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: And some people actually take little tastes along the way 94 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: with their fingers. Oh they do. Oh, Oh, I'm so sorry. 95 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 7: Do you need a minute? 96 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: This is the only interview where I've needed a spit bucket. 97 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. 98 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: Am I being totally rational here? Of course I'm not. 99 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: Plenty of full service restaurants, even very popular ones, have 100 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: food safety issues. But when I'm holding a pair of 101 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: sticky tongs that one hundred other strangers have touched and 102 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,559 Speaker 1: looking at a bin of gloopy mystery meat, I start 103 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: imagining things. The look, that glistening look of congealed meat. 104 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: It's not about the taste or even the smell, but 105 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: it almost looks like what I imagine the La Brea 106 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: tar pits look like. 107 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 2: And this it's really just sells for a steak, But 108 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: how do you know? You don't know. 109 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: Of course, buffets are probably as old as those tar pets. 110 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: When in human history, to self serve buffets emerge. 111 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: We have to imagine that there have always been occasions 112 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: in which a lot of food would be cooked and 113 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: put out and people would eat it. But I think 114 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: as a formal style of restaurant eating, we can go 115 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: to Sweden and the Smorgasboard. Sweden hosted the Olympics in 116 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: nineteen twelve, and everybody was so thrilled that they had 117 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: this thing called Smorgasboard that you could just go and 118 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: help yourself. 119 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: Now, the Smorgas board wasn't for pegging out originally for 120 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: the upper classes. It was more of a refined spread, 121 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: typically composed of cheeses, cured meats, fish like herring, flatbreads, 122 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: and sweets. You might remember us mentioning this Smorgas board 123 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: earlier this season, in the Jim Thorpe episode he triumphed 124 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: at those nineteen twelve games. You might also remember the 125 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: Smorgas board from the Buppet show More Bizergh. They're going 126 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: to get that Swedish chef someday. Who is the Smorgasboard 127 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: of Hell? Anyway, the smorgasboard made a splash on American shores. 128 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: At the nineteen thirty nine World's Fair in New York City. 129 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: Visitors were reportedly spellbound by the vast rotating table festooned 130 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: with Swedish delicacies. It was basically a giant lazy Susan. 131 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: And who doesn't love a lazy Susan? But how did 132 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: that evolve into the buffet as we know it today, Well, 133 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: it takes rout as this will not come as a 134 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: surprise to people. But in Las Vegas in the forties 135 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: and there was this idea that somehow we've got to 136 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: keep people inside the casino. The story goes that a 137 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: man named Herb McDonald, the publicist for the l Rancho 138 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: Vegas casino, was working late one night when he began 139 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: feeling peckish. He grabbed some che es and cold cuts 140 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: from the kitchen and laid them out on the bar 141 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: to make a sandwich. When some hungry gamblers asked to partake, 142 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: Herb had an idea, and in nineteen forty six he 143 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: debuted his Bukaroo buffet and all you can eat buffet 144 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: for one dollar. 145 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: This idea that you could keep gamblers in your casino 146 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: started off with just some sandwiches, and then it became 147 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: all you can eat and everything you want and you 148 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: never have to leave the casino. And they were very cheap. 149 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: They were lost leaders and remained lost leaders in Vegas 150 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: for a long time until the celebrity chef era happened. 151 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,239 Speaker 1: By the nineteen eighties, buffets had spread across the country. 152 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: They were featured on cruise ships and in fast food 153 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: chains like Pizza Hut. 154 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 6: So if you want the whole hut and. 155 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:54,479 Speaker 1: Nothing but you know what to do. Fine dining restaurants 156 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: embraced them. My first fancy buffet was at a hotel 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: on Easter Sunday Fay. It turned out was a manifestation 158 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: of American values. 159 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: Americans love excess, right, we love big things. We love choice, 160 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: and the buffets are the perfect example of that. 161 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 4: Right. 162 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: You mentioned choice, and I want to play a piece 163 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: of a promotional video for Sizzler that was produced in 164 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. 165 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 4: All across America, the song three Rings. 166 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 6: The song is growing stronger every day. 167 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: So this video is about five minutes long. It's heavy 168 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: on Americana. There's a smiling construction worker, a little girl 169 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: swinging a baseball bat, a golden retriever catching a frisbee. 170 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: It feels like a campaign ad. Sizzler brings the choices 171 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: that you've been looking for, giving you the right to choose. 172 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: We're offering much more. And then the requisite key change 173 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: as the jingles swells into a Sizzler an amney. There 174 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: are golden, huge shots of couples and families dining. They 175 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: aren't simply happy, they're in ecstasy. Some of them might 176 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: actually be on ecstasy. A woman is maniacally licking her lips. 177 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: A couple begins making out at the Sissler. That's what 178 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: the freedom and choice of a buffet will do to you. 179 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. How fabulous is that? 180 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: I keep thinking, like, oh my god, did I remember 181 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: to register to vote? Like it feels very It's right, 182 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: it's don't stop believing. But a buffet commercial. You know, 183 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: the video may be over the top, but Kim points 184 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: out that the buffet restaurant really is more than just 185 00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: a place to eat. 186 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: I love them and I also can't stand them at 187 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: the same time. But the buffet became such a piece 188 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: of cultural currency for kids, and they can still remember 189 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: when their families were going to celebrate something, they would 190 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: all go to the hometown buffet because you could feel 191 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: celebratory and it wasn't going to cost a lot of money. 192 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: And also for kids who were second generation, their parents 193 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: were immigrants, the buffet became kind of a roadmap for 194 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: how to eat in America. And I think for those 195 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: parents it was like, Okay, we're going to go learn 196 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: to eat whatever the American food is. Here a good 197 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: friend of mine whose parents came from Taiwana and she 198 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: was raised in Ohio by these first gen immigrants. The 199 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: day they all got their green cards, they went to 200 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: the buffet to celebrate. 201 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: Now I appreciate all of this, unless you, the listener, 202 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: think I'm a killjoy or curmudgeon. I want to make 203 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: one point very clear. I want to draw a distinction 204 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: between cafeterias and buffets. I am very pro cafeteria. 205 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: Really, Okay, okay, what's the difference to you? Then? 206 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: A cafeteria to me, is where you have someone policing 207 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: the situation. So I loved growing up there was I 208 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: grew up in the Washington, DC area, there was something 209 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: called hot Shops cafeteria, and at hot Shops we cook 210 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: our chickens. So They're always tendered, juicy and delicious, and 211 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: I have fond memories of grabbing my tray feeling so empowered, 212 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: going along the line, the carving station with the side 213 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: of roast beef, the individually plated slices of lemon meringue pie. 214 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: I felt safe, and I felt secure because there were 215 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: people with plastic gloves and hairnets on the other side, 216 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: and even if I could grab something on my own, 217 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: I knew that there was a watchful eye. And I 218 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: feel like the buffet, on the other hand, is small 219 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: de democracy brought to its extreme. I'm not saying that 220 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: I want a cafeteria police state. I'm not saying that. 221 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: I think the key to it with the cafeterias that 222 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: everything was individually played. That's why I really respond to that. 223 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: And there's a cleanliness factor for sure. 224 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:16,119 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just don't want tuberculosis with my chicken tetrazini. Ultimately, 225 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm grateful to live at a time and in a 226 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: country with buffets and cafeterias, because no one wants to 227 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: be told what they can and can't eat. 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: You're a perfect example of that in a way. Right 229 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: you know what you want and what you don't want, 230 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: and what you will eat and what you won't. 231 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Eat, And well, I know one thing I don't want, 232 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: heppatitis with my hash Browns. 233 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: I think that's fair. I think that's fair. 234 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: A final word. The producer of this episode tells me 235 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: she now has serious second thoughts about eating at her workplaces. 236 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: Open food bar. You're welcome, Liz. On the other side 237 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: of the break. 238 00:14:53,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 8: Whoo whoo, sing the trolley song again, Yes, queen, Yes. 239 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: Do you remember your first standing ovation? I'll never forget 240 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: my first standing ovation. This is my friend Eric Meir. 241 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: You might remember him from our episode on Fanny Brice. 242 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: Eric's a culture critic with the Hudson Review, and he's 243 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: back to talk about the second thing I wish would die, 244 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: the obligatory standing ovation. 245 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: It was e Liza Minellian concert at the Airy Crown 246 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: Theater in Chicago around nineteen eighty. I was a teenager 247 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: who had seen the movie Cabaret about six times, and 248 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: at the end of the concert, everybody stood, and I 249 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: thought to myself, oh my god, she was so amazing 250 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: that she literally forced people onto their feet, as if 251 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: she levitated them out of their seats. I had never 252 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: seen something like that before. 253 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, it's a parent that you were 254 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: exactly the right person to bring in here to talk 255 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: about this, because you have this memory from over forty 256 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: years ago. So what was motivating you to stand up? 257 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: Was it her performance or everybody else standing? 258 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 3: It was everybody else standing because I didn't know that 259 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: was a thing that you could do at the time. 260 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: But I hadn't seen a lot of theater other than 261 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: community theater and that kind of thing, and no one 262 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: stood at the stagecoach players. But back in the seventies, 263 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: people didn't really stand, even if they loved the show. 264 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: There were exceptions, but it required a certain kind of 265 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: performance and a certain kind of performer to get people 266 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: on their feet. 267 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 6: That, of course, is now all changed. 268 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: It certainly has changed. Today. A standing ovation at the 269 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: end of a theatrical performance or at an awards show 270 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: has become almost routine. It wasn't so long ago that 271 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: a standing ovation was extraordinary. 272 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 4: And let it be said that number eight cal Ripkin 273 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 4: Junior has reached the unreachable Star. 274 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: The unreachable Star is a reference to the impossible dream 275 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: from the musical Man of La Mancha. But this standing 276 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,719 Speaker 1: ovation in nineteen eighty five wasn't in a theater. It 277 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: was in a ballpark. For Baltimore Orioles player Cal Ripkin Junior. 278 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: He'd just broken Lou Garrigg's record for playing the most 279 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: consecutive Major League Baseball games ever two thousand, one hundred 280 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: and thirty one to be exact. I remember when this happened, 281 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: and trust me, you don't have to be a baseball 282 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: fan to watch tape of this and be moved by 283 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: the show of respect and admiration for a man who'd 284 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: shown such devotion to his livelihood. The ovation was completely organic, 285 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: and at twenty two minutes yep, twenty two minutes, it 286 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: was the longest known standing ovation in American public life. 287 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: Contrast this with a standing ovation a decade later that 288 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: matched the twenty two minute Rippken record. In twenty oh six, 289 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: the audience at the can Film Festival in France applauded 290 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: for about that long after a screening of the movie 291 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: Pans Labyrinth, but the director, Guillermo del Toro seemed less 292 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: flattered and more confused by the reaction. 293 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 6: It lasted long enough that I didn't know what to do. 294 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: This standing ovation, like so many, it can felt unfelt. 295 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: So I think what happened to Ken is something that 296 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: also we could maybe say has happened in the theater, 297 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: and that is that there's a certain aspect of standing 298 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: ovations that are performative, where the audience wants to prove 299 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: to everyone around them that they are appreciating what's happening 300 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: and are sort of part of the experience. 301 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: No doubt, audiences of the past would be mystified by 302 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: audiences of today, and vice versa. 303 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 3: We would probably look at audience behavior one hundred and 304 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: fifty or two hundred years ago, let alone five hundred 305 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 3: or two thousand years ago, and not recognize what was 306 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: being done. 307 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 6: There's so much we don't know about. 308 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: Greek theater, but we get a sense from contemporary descriptions 309 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 3: that there was an intense identification between the audience and 310 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 3: what was happening on stage. So there would be a 311 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 3: lot of sort of expressive reaction, crying, wailing, shouting and 312 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 3: so forth. Wailing and shouting, right, you know, because these 313 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 3: were very tragic stories often being told or else riots 314 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: laughter at the comedies. But we don't have any sense 315 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 3: of whether people stood at the end or not. There's 316 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 3: no document of that kind of thing. Remember, in Shakespeare's time, 317 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 3: most of the audience stood for the entire performance, so 318 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: a standing ovation would have been redundant. 319 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: Goodness God, it's sort of crazy that I think. I mean, 320 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: I know it would have been redundant. But you know 321 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: that Julius Caesar didn't get a standing ovation, and the 322 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: Gloria Estefan musical On your Feet got a standing ovation, which, 323 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: by the way, I liked, I actually really liked it. 324 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: Do you think they by the way, do you think 325 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: they titled it on your Feet to get people on their. 326 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 6: Eata and sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. 327 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the eighteenth century that audiences began even 328 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: clapping in a theater. Around this time, in Italy, opera 329 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: fans probably began standing for exceptional performances. Theater historians tend 330 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: to agree that the standing ovation emerged in its current 331 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: form on Broadway in the years after World War Two. 332 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: So what happens in the nineteen sixties, and I have 333 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: to reference our friend Ethan Warden here, who has written 334 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 3: about this quite a bit. There's a new phenomenon of 335 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 3: what we might call the big Lady shows, where musicals 336 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: in particular are built around specific star performers, and the 337 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: early examples of that are, of course shows like Hello 338 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 3: Dolly or Mame, where we see a phenomenon of people 339 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 3: buying tickets because you have to see Carl Channing and 340 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 3: Hello Dolly, or you have to see Angela Lansbury in Maine. 341 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: In the years before these big Lady shows, the curtain 342 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: call that's when performers take their bows was short and 343 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: to the point. 344 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: Up through the nineteen fifties, even shows like My Fair 345 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 3: Lady that were massive hits, there's about two and a 346 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: half minutes of curtain call music, which means that everybody 347 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: came on the leads, took a few solo bows, and 348 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: everybody got off pretty quickly. 349 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: There's not enough time to stand up for Julie Andrews 350 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: and Richard Burton and Robert Gulay and correct Camelot exactly. 351 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 3: But by the time you get to Hello Dolly, there's 352 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 3: a fully staged curtain call. And this is something that 353 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: the director, GOWERT. Champion, really wanted to do. It's not 354 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: just everybody's shuffle on, bow bow, bow, shuffle off. It's 355 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 3: a choreographed curtain call with music that is deliberately written 356 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 3: to build the tension up until the moment that Caryl 357 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: Channing comes down those stairs one more time for that 358 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: final bow. 359 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Producers began doing what they could to guarantee a standing ovation. 360 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 3: And I actually know this because we have a mutual friend, Bart, 361 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 3: who was hired straight out of college by the producers 362 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 3: of the Hello Dolly revival in nineteen ninety five with 363 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 3: Carol Channing, with Carol Channing her final Dolly performances, to 364 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 3: sit in the second row at every single performance and 365 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: start the standing ovation. 366 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 6: At the end. 367 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: So he was a plant. 368 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 6: He was a plant. 369 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: He stood, and then it becomes a cascading phenomenon, which 370 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 3: standing ovations are a bit like an avalanche quicksidebar. 371 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: Along with ovation inflation has come a new way of 372 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: vocalizing appreciation for a performance. No more Bravo or encore. Now, 373 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: no matter what kind of show you're seeing, you're likely 374 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: to hear woo. 375 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: The WU is a fairly recent phenomenon. 376 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: And it's horrible. I mean, it is just awful, the 377 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: WU phenomenon. It's a scourge. 378 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: I think the woof phenomenon is something that comes from 379 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: audiences who attend as much pop music as they do 380 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: theater these days, and they've brought that sensibility into the theater. 381 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: Not long ago, Eric went to a performance of a 382 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: small chamber musical serious in tone, and still. 383 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 3: There was a significant portion of the audience and I'm 384 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: gonna stereotype them as being people under the age of 385 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: thirty who were wooing or even saying yes in the 386 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 3: middle of the numbers, being performed like a yazz queen 387 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 3: kind of thing, Right, yeah, or you know, saying it 388 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. You're kidding me, right, And let 389 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: me clarify that I in no way endorse wooing during 390 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 3: the performance of the song after the singer has finished. 391 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 3: Wooing is acceptable to me. But wooing a high note 392 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 3: to the middle of the song, I do find obnoxious. 393 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: A wooing a high note. That's horrendous to do that. Now, 394 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: let's venture beyond theater on television. The Oscars are handy 395 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: barometer of how commonplace standing ovations have become. I still 396 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: remember the nineteen eighty five Oscars telecast when Jack Lemon 397 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: introduced Lord Lawrence Olivier to present the Best Picture winner. 398 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: Olivier wasn't receiving an award, but his very presence brought 399 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: the crowd to its feet. Olivier himself was overcome and 400 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: forgot to name the nominees. 401 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 7: And the winner for this is. 402 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 6: I'm adeus. 403 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 3: Nowadays, of course, it seems like there's usually about six 404 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 3: or seven standing ovations at each Oscar ceremony. 405 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: Will Smith got a standing ovation after he hit someone. 406 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 3: That what he did indeed, and I sort of feel like, 407 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 3: you know, the appreciation is the award. You don't need 408 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 3: the standing ovation as well. You're holding an Oscar in 409 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 3: your hand. That's the win to me. 410 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: The corollary to the standing ovation is the exclamation point 411 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: and the use of it. 412 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: That is something that is certainly a factor of our 413 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: digital age that I became really aware of how often 414 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: I was using exclamation points in emails. 415 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: But it's an arms race, and I don't like, you're great. 416 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: Next time I email you, I don't want to not 417 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: use an exclamation point because I would worry that you 418 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: think I'm upset at you or for something. 419 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: The exclamation point is the new period, and the double 420 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: exclamation point is the new exclamation point. You have to 421 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: use two or three now to indicate that you really 422 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 3: are exclaiming this and not just stating it. 423 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: What can we do about this? 424 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: It's that rock has started to roll down the hill, 425 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: and there's no way to get it to stop. 426 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: I think likewise, there may be no standing up to 427 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: the standing ovation. 428 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 3: Times change, and the way we express appreciation evolves with time, 429 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: and so we are at a stage now where the 430 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 3: standing ovation is obligatory, and we can choose to fight 431 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: that or just to accept it. And I've come to 432 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 3: a place of acceptance. I don't love it in my heart, 433 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 3: but I accept it with my brain. 434 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: You've opened my mind, though, Okay, but I'll never be 435 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: okay with wooing. 436 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 6: No, this was amazing. 437 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: Whoo coming up, it's gonna get a little loud. Hey 438 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: there among the number two train headed uptown right now, 439 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: I said, mail, which. 440 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 7: I'm sure. 441 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: It's no surprise that New York City, the city I 442 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: call home, is a noisy place. This is my piece 443 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: of work, so it should come as no surprise that 444 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: the third thing I'd like to die is noise. Maybe 445 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: it's getting older, maybe it's my tinatus that ringing in 446 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: my ears, But more and more I value quiet. Honestly, 447 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: if the library opened to a restaurant, I'd be the 448 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: first to make a reservation. But I also realized that 449 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: noise is subjective. 450 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 7: I don't think there's a universal definition of noise. It 451 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 7: depends on where you are, who you are, and when 452 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 7: you're doing the listening. 453 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: That's Mark Smith. He's a history professor at the University 454 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: of South Carolina, where he specializes in something called sensory history. 455 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: He teaches his students not just what the past looked like, 456 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: but what it smelled, tasted, and sounded like. And oh, 457 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: how I wish I'd been able to take his course 458 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: when I was in college. 459 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 7: Okay, so sound is often associated as a positive thing, right. 460 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 7: Noise is considered to be sound out of time. That 461 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 7: is to say, something that you could hear during the 462 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 7: day happens at two o'clock in the morning and it 463 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 7: suddenly becomes noise. And that's what noise ordinances are usually about. 464 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Now there's nothing about people grumbling about noise, and we've 465 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: got seven decades of CBS news archives to prove it. 466 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: There's the burglar alarm in Maryland that went off for 467 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: five days. 468 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 3: I'm taking eight hundred milligrams of motor and that puts 469 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: me right to sleep because you hear it constantly. 470 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 5: And the New Orleans jazz residents who sued their city 471 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 5: for get this loud street jazz. 472 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: Just imagine your own house if you wake up and 473 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: there's a large brass band out there, and it's there 474 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: every day, eight to ten hours a day, seven days 475 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: a week. Back in the eighties, when boomboxes were booming, 476 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: there was the campaign for radio free zones. 477 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 6: In New York. There are fines for violators up to 478 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 6: fifty dollars. 479 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: I've been coming here every day, my radio man, my 480 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: take Santana's greatest hits. 481 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 6: You know it's a cave and play it. 482 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: And later on the valiant fight against leaf blowers in 483 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: northern California. 484 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: It's a blight on any neighborhood. It's war without our permission. 485 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 1: Quick aside, that voice you just heard is Julie Newmar 486 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: TV's original Catwoman. 487 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: This is my night to Howe back then, because tonight 488 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: you are the mice and I am the cat. 489 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: And then there's the Virginia dog who was sentenced to 490 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: death for barking. They were just bark, bark, bark, bark, balks. 491 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 6: I don't believe it. 492 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 7: That's the CBS eving news for this Friday day and 493 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 7: rather reporting from New York and hoping you have a 494 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 7: good weekend. 495 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: Don't worry. The ruling was overturned and backs went free. 496 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: But what do we know about what kept people awake 497 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: before sound recorded history? 498 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,959 Speaker 7: I suspect for most of human history, the loudest noise 499 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 7: before the modern era that anybody would have heard would 500 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 7: have been thunder. 501 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 5: That's Mark Smith, again, our sensory historian. I asked him 502 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 5: to take us back in time. What about the sounds 503 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 5: that the early settlers in a manner America from Europe heard. 504 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 7: So bells, for example, can be found in the earliest 505 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 7: colonial villages, and those bells are marking Western civilization as 506 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 7: they hear it onto this new world. But beyond the 507 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 7: physical limits of that township or that village was a 508 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 7: howling wilderness known as the rant. This is a place 509 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 7: yet to be discovered. This is a place to be feared. 510 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 7: This is a place to retreat from or impose your 511 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 7: will over. 512 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: Okay, well, the howling wilderness that you're describing sounds terrifying. 513 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: It sounds like something out of Game of Thrones. First 514 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: of all, they're just like that. This border territory between 515 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: their very probably very small villages at this point and 516 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: the vast unknown. Is it wind, is it animals? What 517 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: is it that they're hearing? 518 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 7: Well, it's all of the above. The topography of the 519 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 7: place is quite different to many European countries. When you 520 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 7: go to a place, you make comparisons, and that comparison 521 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 7: is going to be inevitably hostage to the time that 522 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 7: you make it. So, for example, tornadoes existed in colonial 523 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 7: America right when these settlers were first arriving. But they 524 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 7: couldn't possibly say that those tornadoes sounded like a freight train, 525 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 7: could they did? They say it sounded like satan. It's demonic, 526 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 7: but it could also be the wrath of God. It 527 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 7: must have been absolutely nerving at a very deep emotional 528 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 7: level to hear what America sounded like. 529 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: When trains did begin crisscrossing the country in the eighteen 530 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, the sounds were just as startling as thunder. 531 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 7: People didn't quite know what to make of them. I mean, 532 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 7: here you have a sound of movement cutting through the countryside, 533 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 7: and it's terrifying at first for some people, Now what 534 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 7: is that? And then when the whistle goes off. It's unnerving, 535 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 7: but very quickly people begin to embrace that sound as 536 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 7: a kind of progress. And then after that, the sound 537 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 7: of the train becomes quickly incorporated into the fabric of 538 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 7: American nostalgia, especially a steam engine. 539 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: So it goes from scary to a sign of progress 540 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: to something almost romantic. 541 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 7: I think so. I think that's the point. Yes, this 542 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 7: is an example of attaching meaning that changes over time. 543 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 7: When we hear bells today, we think of them as quaint, right, 544 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 7: They kind of rally people to church, But they didn't 545 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 7: always sound quaint to certain people. And if you're an 546 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 7: enslaved person on a southern plantation, a bell has nothing 547 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 7: quaint about it. It is the sound of labor, it 548 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 7: is the sound of obedience, it is the sound of 549 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 7: There is no standard definition of the meaning of a bell. 550 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 7: It's very much who you are. 551 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: In the late eighteen nineties, urban development made cities very 552 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: loud places. In response, a new progressive movement took shape. 553 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: One of its targets, noise Reformers made to the case 554 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: that loud noises were bad for the nervous system. 555 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 7: I think probably the most powerful expression of this comes 556 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 7: during the First World War, where you have people who 557 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 7: are in fact, not just deafened, but psychologically damaged by 558 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 7: not just what they see, not just what they smell, 559 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 7: but what they hear in that war. And obviously it's 560 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 7: the screams of your compatriots being shot, but it's also 561 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 7: the unprecedented volume of munitions going off. Nobody had heard 562 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 7: noises that loud before got. 563 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: To be in a trench in World War One, and 564 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: the sounds you must have heard. 565 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 7: So you hear the shell before it hits, and that's 566 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 7: what you're hearing is possible imminent death. 567 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: The twentieth century gave rise to sounds that today we 568 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: take for granted. The first automobiles were very noisy, and 569 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: then we chok to the skies. 570 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 4: The plane flying oh La area is a thing that 571 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 4: people have gotten to a point. 572 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 7: The way children wake up in the middle of the 573 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 7: night's screaming. 574 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: That's from a nineteen sixty two CBS News special host 575 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: Walter Cronkite interviewed then Federal Aviation Chief Nijeeb Halliby. 576 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 4: Would you say, mister Halliby, that we're just going to 577 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 4: have to learn to live with the noise of the 578 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 4: jet age? Well, you know, we've always learned to live 579 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 4: with noise. The automobile, which was a frightening looking machine, 580 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 4: making a terrible noise when it first appeared. Certainly, the 581 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 4: construction noise of a pneumatic hammer is much higher than 582 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 4: that of a distant jet airply in our helicopt So 583 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 4: I think one of the prices of progress and power 584 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 4: is going to be a level of noise. If it's 585 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 4: dangerous to health and life, it should not be tolerated. 586 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 4: But if it's just irritable, I'm afraid that's one of 587 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 4: the prices of so called progress. 588 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: The balance between progress and noise pollution was tested as 589 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: never before by the introduction of the Concord. Writing on 590 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: it was the height of luxury living under its flight 591 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: path wasn't so pleasant? That sound you just heard is 592 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: sonic boom we have in our archives. I only just 593 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,959 Speaker 1: watched it. A CBS news report from nineteen seventy from 594 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: Wales about the Concord and the sonic boom of the 595 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: Concord disturbs one elderly woman because it reminds her of 596 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: the bombing during World War Two. 597 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 7: It was like a bomb going off, a blast and 598 00:36:59,160 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 7: it shook me up. 599 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: I was very flattened because I was bombed. 600 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 4: In the war. 601 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: Then when a young woman she sounds like a teenager, 602 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: actually a girl, is interviewed, she says it was a 603 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: little scary first, and how she loves it because it's 604 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: really really cool because it's associated, my god with a 605 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: supersonic jet. 606 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 7: I was only frightened the first time. I wasn't frightened 607 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 7: the second time. 608 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 4: Do you think the concord should go on flying over here? 609 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 5: Yes? 610 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 6: You like the concord? Yes, nice fast time. 611 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a perfect example because the child doesn't have 612 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 7: the memory of the war. If you experience the Second 613 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 7: World War, how you understand sounds during it and after 614 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 7: it are going to be really different as opposed to 615 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 7: being born in the nineteen eighties or nineteen nineties. 616 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: The US government limited concord service after cities issued numerous 617 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: noise complaints. As for the sounds of today, any advice 618 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: on how I should think about that jackhammer on the 619 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: way to. 620 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 7: Work, Let's imagine there are no jackhammers. Think about the 621 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 7: state of your streets and your roads. Unless we develop 622 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 7: a technology that's quieter to repair the roads, then you're 623 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 7: going to have to deal with it. So mo I 624 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 7: would say this, go around the block a different way perhaps, 625 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 7: or just recognize that the street is better for that 626 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 7: temporary engagement with noise that you had to endure, as 627 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 7: unpleasant as it is. 628 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: But there are certain sounds that are just noise. The 629 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: dirt bikes, the illegal ATVs that roar up Sixth Avenue 630 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and wake me up. 631 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,959 Speaker 1: I just I cannot find the upside. I can't find 632 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: a way of redefining those noises. 633 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think most people would agree with you, and 634 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 7: that's probably why there's a noise ordinance prohibiting it. 635 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 6: Right. 636 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 7: However, for the person riding the ATV or the dirt bike, 637 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,439 Speaker 7: this is the sound of protest, This is the sound 638 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 7: of youth, This is the sound of whatever they think 639 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 7: it is. Now they might I've been a distinct minority. 640 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 7: But that's kind of the point about the context, right, 641 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 7: and who's doing the listening, and who has the authority 642 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 7: to say no, that's noise. 643 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: Jackhammer's good, illegal dirt bikes bad. 644 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 7: That's fair enough. 645 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: I get it. One person's noise is another person's music. Likewise, 646 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: one person's steaming, gurgling bin of Cooties is another person's buffet, 647 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: just as one person's. 648 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 5: Coerced standing ovation is another person's inspired, authentic, and spontaneous 649 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 5: woo fast. It's all about context and changing mores and look, 650 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 5: I'm willing to go with the flow, So don't be 651 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 5: surprised to see me as your favorite hard rocking all 652 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 5: you can eat joint. 653 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: I'll be the one wiping down the tongs. I certainly 654 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this mobituary. I may I ask you 655 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: to please rate and review our podcast. You can also 656 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, and you could follow me 657 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: on the social media platform formerly known as Twitter at Moroka. 658 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: Here are all new episodes of Mobituaries every Wednesday. Wherever 659 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts and check out Mobituaries. Great Lives 660 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: Worth Reliving the New York Times best selling book, now 661 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: available in paperback and audiobook. It includes plenty of stories 662 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: not in the podcast. This episode of Mobituaries was produced 663 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: by Liz Sanchez, who wishes hiking with loud music would die. 664 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: Our team of producers also includes Chloe Chobol, who wishes 665 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: the girl Boss mentality would die, and Me Morocca with 666 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: engineering by Josh Han who wishes parachute pants would die. 667 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,240 Speaker 1: Our theme music is written by Daniel Hart. Our archival 668 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: producer is Jamie Benson, who wishes gender reveal parties would die, 669 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: and fact checking from Annie Cronenberg, who wish which is 670 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: elaborate bachelorette trips would die. Mobituary's production company is Neon Hummedia. 671 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 5: Indispensable support from Alan Pang, who wishes asparagus soda, Yes, 672 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 5: asparagus soda would die, and everyone at CBS News Radio 673 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 5: special thanks to Steve Razis, Rand Morrison, and Alberto Robina. 674 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 5: Executive producers for Mobituaries include Megan Marcus, who wishes espresso 675 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 5: martinis would die, Jonathan Hirsch, who wishes judging other people's 676 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 5: vocal fry would die, and me Moroka. 677 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: The series is 678 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 5: Created by Yours Truly and well you already heard what 679 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 5: I wish would die.