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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back doctor Ingrid and Clayton with us, George

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Speaker 2: Nori here with you. So Ingrid, my father saw my

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Speaker 2: name pop up on credits at this television station and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden went from hating my switch to

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Speaker 2: the broadcast curriculum to loving it, and he became my

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Speaker 2: biggest booster for the rest of my career.

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Speaker 3: I love that for you, and I have to say

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Speaker 3: it brings a little heartbreak because of how many people

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Speaker 3: had such an opposite experience that when they took that

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Speaker 3: leap and they chose themselves and they said the thing

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Speaker 3: or did the thing, you know, a lot of people

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Speaker 3: really lose those vital and important relationships or it really

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Speaker 3: makes things worse. That fawning often happens because our fight response,

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Speaker 3: our ability to advocate for ourselves and be authentic has

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Speaker 3: been snuffed out. Right, We're talking about real consequences for folks. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, I love this experience that your dad was

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Speaker 3: able to sort of come full circle and applaud your success. Right,

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Speaker 3: and yet oftentimes we have to be the only person

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Speaker 3: that's going to have our own back that's going to

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Speaker 3: validate us and say, I get it, you did.

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Speaker 4: The right thing.

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Speaker 3: And that's why fawning often, you know, I talk about

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Speaker 3: it as choosing safety over self and in this case,

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Speaker 3: you leaned in and you said, I got to choose me.

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Speaker 4: I got to choose me. And ultimately, of course I

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Speaker 4: want everyone to be.

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Speaker 3: Able to do that, but we also have to honor

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Speaker 3: that we live in real contexts, in our families, in

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Speaker 3: our workplace, you know, friendships.

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Speaker 2: You name it is fawning a defensive move. Uh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you could refer to it as a survival mechanism,

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Speaker 3: A defense mechanism.

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Speaker 4: A yeah. Trauma responses are all about survival.

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Speaker 2: How many people are aware of this?

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Speaker 3: Well, fawning is pretty new to the even the trauma lexicon.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like trauma in itself is still

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Speaker 3: in its infancy in the mental health field. It's only

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Speaker 3: really in the eighties that we first started looking at PTSD,

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Speaker 3: even for veterans. And then Judith Herman came along, Doctor

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Speaker 3: Judith Herman, and she saw that the way that survivors

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Speaker 3: of domestic violence, for instance, were experiencing their symptoms that

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Speaker 3: really mapped out exactly over what we were seeing for

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Speaker 3: the veterans, and that's so long standing. Complex trauma was

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Speaker 3: presenting sematically in the same way that we were seeing

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Speaker 3: for vets and for single incident acute traumatic events a

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Speaker 3: car crashes and natural disasters. And so you know, that

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Speaker 3: got PTSD into the diagnostic manual here in the United States.

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Speaker 3: But the truth is, we still don't have a diagnosis

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Speaker 3: for complex PTSD, which is really more of what I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about, which is the relational trauma piece. We don't

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Speaker 3: have that diagnosis here in the United States. The World

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Speaker 3: Health Organization finally added CPTSD to their ICD I think

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Speaker 3: eleven and I want to say twenty and eighteen. But

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Speaker 3: so the fact is, you know, especially when I was

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Speaker 3: in grad school, starting back in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 3: we weren't having these conversations. So even though I went

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Speaker 3: and I sat on a lot of therapist couches and

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Speaker 3: I talked about my history and I knew what happened

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Speaker 3: to me, and I could tell it, you know, backwards

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Speaker 3: and forwards, no one could give me this lenser language,

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Speaker 3: and so ultimately it kept me feeling even more stuck,

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Speaker 3: even more broken. Here I am trying so hard to

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Speaker 3: overcome my past, and I feel like I'm on this

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Speaker 3: hamster wheel, and so it's part of my mission now

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Speaker 3: to be honest. Right So here, I am now in

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Speaker 3: my fifties going no one should have to live this way.

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Speaker 3: And when I learned about fond response in particular, it

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Speaker 3: just it allowed me to make sense to myself right here.

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Speaker 4: I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm an educated person, I'm a lifelong seak. I want

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Speaker 3: to grow, I want to change, and yet I was

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Speaker 3: so stuck in this thing that I didn't even know

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Speaker 3: what it was. And so now we're learning, we're learning

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Speaker 3: more about the fun response. You know, one day all

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Speaker 3: the models said fight, flight, freeze, and now suddenly we

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Speaker 3: have fawn up. There is the fourth f and I'm

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Speaker 3: excited about that. I'm excited to empower other people so

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Speaker 3: that they can they can make a choice similar to yours,

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Speaker 3: which is, first of all, who am I?

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Speaker 4: Anyway? What do I like?

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Speaker 3: What do I want? A lot of times we don't

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Speaker 3: even know. But when we start to uncover those pieces

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Speaker 3: right to be able to have our own backs in

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Speaker 3: some ways no matter what, and lean in and say

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Speaker 3: I have to choose me. I'm going to choose self

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Speaker 3: this time?

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Speaker 2: Is it called fawn and ingrid if the person just

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Speaker 2: agrees with his or her boss all the time.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, wa was Yeah, I would say that's the

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Speaker 4: faun response.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no sense of self, there's no opinion there,

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Speaker 3: there's no even self respect.

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Speaker 4: No one agrees all the time.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you on that. Yeah, how do you

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Speaker 2: overcome it?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think part of it is doing what you

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Speaker 3: and I are doing now, which is normalizing it and saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: there's this other option that the body has when it

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Speaker 3: feels unsafe, and it's called fawning. And when we put

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Speaker 3: it back in the body, we can start to go, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm not just someone walking around with low self esteem.

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Speaker 3: I'm someone with a body that has hardwired operating instructions

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Speaker 3: that jumps in on my behalf when I'm feeling threatened.

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Speaker 3: So just that information alone, I feel, is so powerful.

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Speaker 3: But then we can take a look at well, if

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've been living in this chronic trauma response,

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Speaker 3: that means I might have some trauma in my background.

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Speaker 3: And again, we're just continuing to learn more and more

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Speaker 3: all the time about what trauma is. It's not about

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Speaker 3: a specific event, right, So it's not like there's some

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Speaker 3: trauma measuring stick, and so many people do this.

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Speaker 4: I see this in my practice all the time.

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Speaker 3: They're like, but my experience wasn't as bad, and my

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Speaker 3: cousin had it worse, and you know, all of these

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Speaker 3: people we want to kind of measure our experiences against others,

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Speaker 3: and most of us find that we fall short on

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Speaker 3: the measuring stick and we go I can't call it trauma, right,

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Speaker 3: So it's not about an event. It's about what the

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Speaker 3: event did to your nervous system, that it overwhelmed your

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Speaker 3: nervous system. And once we can start to recognize, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is what trauma is, this is why I got stuck,

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Speaker 3: then we can avail ourselves of some of the tools

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Speaker 3: and resources that we have in the trauma therapy landscape,

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Speaker 3: things like EMDR or internal family systems, therapy, somatic experiencing,

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Speaker 3: body work, regulating our nervous system. There's a host of

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Speaker 3: things that we can avail ourselves of if we cross

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Speaker 3: that threshold into going oh yes, that label applies to

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Speaker 3: me too well.

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Speaker 2: With doctor Ingrid Clayton, her website is her name linked

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Speaker 2: up at coastncoastdam dot com. Her book is called Fawning

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Speaker 2: would you say, ingrid that those who fawn are generally

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Speaker 2: nice people narcissists? What are they?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's a great question.

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Speaker 3: I think fauners tend to be very empathetic. We tend

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Speaker 3: to really look at what everyone else is going through

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Speaker 3: and try to understand and have compassion for why they

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Speaker 3: do what they do. We tend to have a lot

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Speaker 3: of hope and faith in the fact that other people

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Speaker 3: can change and they don't mean to.

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Speaker 4: Be so hard on me.

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Speaker 3: And so there's this big heartedness that I see a

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Speaker 3: lot with people in a chronic faun response.

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Speaker 2: Where does honesty come into this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a good question. There's a section in

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Speaker 3: my book called to Tell You the Truth because, to

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Speaker 3: use some of your examples, right, if someone walks in

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Speaker 3: with this heinous outfit and you're like, you look amazing, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: that obviously is not honest. And yet if you grew

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Speaker 3: up in an environment where you know, I talk about

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Speaker 3: this that for people that lived in really dysfunctional homes,

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Speaker 3: abusive homes, even something like saying good morning ends up

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Speaker 3: being dishonest because.

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Speaker 4: There's something good about it at all.

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Speaker 3: You end up performing a life rather than living a life.

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Speaker 3: There's this sort of curated kind of shape shifting thing

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Speaker 3: that can happen in a chronic faun response. But I

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Speaker 3: hesitate to say that it's dishonesty or it's lying again,

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Speaker 3: because those are consciously motivated. So some people, and I

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Speaker 3: see you know, in the online discourse in particular, they

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Speaker 3: talk about fauners as though it's conscious manipulation, And in

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Speaker 3: my experience and all of the clients that I've worked

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Speaker 3: with for I don't know decades now, that has never

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Speaker 3: been the case. So yes, it leads to dishonesty, and

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Speaker 3: that was never our intention. And so if we lead

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Speaker 3: with this idea that you're doing something wrong and you're

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Speaker 3: a liar, in other words, shaming people for these behaviors,

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Speaker 3: all we're going to do is keep the behaviors existing

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Speaker 3: because the shame is so high they can't actually do

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Speaker 3: the work that needs to happen in order to free

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Speaker 3: themselves of.

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Speaker 4: Living in this trauma response.

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Speaker 2: If that makes sense, Can you on fawn without coming

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Speaker 2: across as uncaring that you don't give a darn about something?

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Speaker 3: I think so, and I think sometimes it's messy. We

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Speaker 3: have to give ourselves some grace. It's a bit of

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Speaker 3: like the pendulum swing that if you've lived all the

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Speaker 3: way on one side, and this is for any behavior, really,

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Speaker 3: it tends.

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Speaker 4: To swing all the way to the other side.

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Speaker 3: So if you didn't have any healthy fight response ever,

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Speaker 3: and you're practicing having a voice, it can come across

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Speaker 3: as you're kind of a jerk. But I say, tell

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Speaker 3: people that you're trying to unfond tell them that you're

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Speaker 3: trying to have a voice, that you're stepping into your

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Speaker 3: agency and advocacy, and that it's new and that it's awkward,

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Speaker 3: and you know, particularly people that are close to you,

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Speaker 3: like ask them to give you a little grace. But

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Speaker 3: over time I find that what we can get you

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Speaker 3: as a sense of balance and boundaries.

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Speaker 2: Who's a better friend the person who tells you something

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Speaker 2: direct or the person who kind of sugarcoats things to

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Speaker 2: make you feel good.

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Speaker 3: Well for me personally, obviously I want the person that's

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Speaker 3: going to be more direct, but I also know that

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Speaker 3: I'm a safe place for that kind of direct communication.

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Speaker 2: There's really nothing to negative to say about you.

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Speaker 4: To say about me, right, So I mean.

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Speaker 2: As somebody who was your friend, Oh, they're not sugarcoating

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Speaker 2: anything because you are who you are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I am a human being, so I'm going

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Speaker 3: to make mistakes.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to put my foot in my mouth.

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Speaker 3: But hopefully the people that are close to me can say,

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Speaker 3: you know, hey, that hurt my feelings or that I

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Speaker 3: wish you would have done that differently. And you know,

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Speaker 3: as a person who's healing from relational trauma, there's a

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Speaker 3: saying wounding happens in relationships and healing happens in relationships.

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Speaker 3: And I'm a big believer in that that it's how

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Speaker 3: we show up now and we do things differently that

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Speaker 3: makes such a huge difference.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've had some friends who've been at tables

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Speaker 2: at restaurants and places like that, the ingrid who've said

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Speaker 2: some inappropriate things, not intentionally to hurt, they just say them,

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Speaker 2: and I've pulled them aside and said, look, that was

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Speaker 2: pretty inappropriate to say, not at this table there are

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Speaker 2: kids here, this or that, And then the would a

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Speaker 2: faun or have lied about that, Well.

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Speaker 4: They probably wouldn't have said anything.

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Speaker 3: Right, So we tend to be very conflict avoidant because

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Speaker 3: it invites tends to invite more harm. Right, if having

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Speaker 3: a voice made things worse, the last thing you want

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Speaker 3: to do is go stir something up with someone across

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Speaker 3: the table.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: That's another sign I think of a chronic fauner is

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Speaker 3: when you can't address anything directly, but it still builds

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Speaker 3: up in your body. And so a couple of things

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Speaker 3: tend to happen. Either you're full of resentment, right you're

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Speaker 3: kind of just seating on the inside, like that jerk

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Speaker 3: and they said that thing.

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Speaker 4: Or they're never.

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Speaker 3: Stepping up and helping out and I'm doing all of

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Speaker 3: the work. Or you gossip and you tell someone else

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Speaker 3: who you know will be able to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So I tend to look at your patterns of gossip

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Speaker 3: in your life, and that might be an indication that

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Speaker 3: you have a chronic faun response where you're not able

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Speaker 3: to be more direct to.

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Speaker 2: The recipient of a fauner. Person who gets it, do

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Speaker 2: they generally like the faun or did they come across

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Speaker 2: as pleasing as opposed to somebody who doesn't fonn.

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Speaker 3: Let me see, you're saying to the person who receives

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Speaker 3: the fawning behavior, do they.

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Speaker 2: Like it as opposed to somebody who tells them the truth?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say it depends right that you mentioned the narcissist.

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Speaker 3: I think the narcissist fauner pairing is a very very

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Speaker 3: common one, And in that case, you would say absolutely,

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Speaker 3: the narcissist loves that you are going to merge with

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Speaker 3: their expectations. You're going to sort of go with their

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Speaker 3: flow at all time. You're not going to have a

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Speaker 3: voice unless it's the voice they want you to have.

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Speaker 3: That's why that pairing works so well. But for other

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Speaker 3: people that have a healthier sense of self, it's annoying.

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Speaker 3: It's infuriating to try to connect with someone who doesn't

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Speaker 3: have their.

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Speaker 4: Own opinions, you know.

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Speaker 3: So it depends on who the other person is in

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Speaker 3: their relationship.

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Speaker 2: Given a choice to fond or just to stay quiet

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Speaker 2: and not say anything, which would you prefer.

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Speaker 4: It's all context dependent.

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Speaker 3: I was sharing with my social media following on Instagram

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Speaker 3: the other day. I had encountered this person at my

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Speaker 3: son's baseball game. He was loud, and he was aggressive.

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Speaker 3: He was yelling at the coaches, he was yelling at

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Speaker 3: the kids, and my body instinctively fond. In other words,

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Speaker 3: I knew he needed to be the expert and the

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Speaker 3: big man on campus and I I deferred. I was

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Speaker 3: managing that relationship in a way that I was propping

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Speaker 3: him up. And you know what, it worked. He didn't

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Speaker 3: yell at me, he didn't yell at my son. That's

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Speaker 3: not to say that there weren't any consequences. I was

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Speaker 3: also managing what was essentially a toxic relationship instead of

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Speaker 3: turning to these healthier, reciprocal relationships that could have been

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Speaker 3: happening with other people at the ball field. But I

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Speaker 3: guess it's to say we don't ever get rid of

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Speaker 3: our trauma responses. I want to have it when I

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Speaker 3: need it. I don't want to live there twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven. Okay, that is living in survival mode and

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Speaker 3: it's not healthy for anybody.

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