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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Natalie Harp posted over one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty pro Trump tweets on January sixth, twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great joke for you today, The

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Speaker 1: Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson joins us to discuss Trump's

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Speaker 1: Natalie Harp problem that won't go away. Then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to author Curt Anderson about his new book, the one

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Speaker 1: that everyone is talking about, the Breakup. But first the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, mister Trump, he's really real busy these days.

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Speaker 2: As we know, it's not a laser focus on affordability,

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Speaker 2: it's redecorating. And apparently his stock portfolio.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is Trump trading on insider information? Well, he's certainly trading.

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Speaker 1: Trump disclosed just over a thousand financial transactions for the

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Speaker 1: month of June. Remember Trump never bought stocks in his

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Speaker 1: first terms. So everything in this administration is so suspicious, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't necessarily prove it because you don't

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Speaker 1: have someone in there like listening to his phone calls.

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Speaker 1: But like this is such an insane contrast from the

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Speaker 1: first Trump administration. So he disclosed over one thousand financial

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Speaker 1: transactions for the month of June, buying of selling, stocks, bonds,

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Speaker 1: ef ETFs, which track the markets, and he reshuffled his

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Speaker 1: portfolio and he sold a bunch of ETFs. So again,

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump thousand stock financial transactions, selling, buying. He

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Speaker 1: rotated in and out of stocks, bonds, exchange trading funds

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Speaker 1: throughout the months. His transactions totaled between seventy eight point

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Speaker 1: one million and two one hundred and sixty three point

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Speaker 1: one million. Seems normal, I mean, it's like but it's

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Speaker 1: also he's you know, he's selling companies that are he's

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Speaker 1: doing deals with where he is helping the stock go

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Speaker 1: up and buying. I mean, you've got market sell offs

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Speaker 1: and then he's trading. I mean it's like what Congress

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Speaker 1: has been doing that they need to stop doing, but

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Speaker 1: like ten times worse, you know, and the stocks are

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Speaker 1: bouncing back, but he I mean, it's just exactly what

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Speaker 1: if you any other person would probably go to jail

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Speaker 1: for this. I'm just telling you, like, if you worked,

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Speaker 1: if you were in a corporate governance position and you

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Speaker 1: were trading in a way that looked like you were

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Speaker 1: getting inside information like this. I mean, this is just

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Speaker 1: so uh, it's so sketchy, and you also sold bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: It's just not how any of this is supposed to go.

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Speaker 1: And it's also importantly, it just shows he's not really

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Speaker 1: focused on his job, which is being president. It's just

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Speaker 1: a very insane thing to witness. And it's also it's

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Speaker 1: not how the presidency is supposed to work. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're to quote Hillary Clinton here, public servants are

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Speaker 1: supposed to serve the public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that ain't what's happening. They're also supposed to

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Speaker 2: look out for the American people, and that's also what's

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Speaker 2: not happening. I think this quote is pretty pretty amazing.

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Speaker 2: I have a question. You know, when I was in Japan,

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Speaker 2: I kept seeing horse meat on the menu, and I

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Speaker 2: decided to abstain. I've found that little bridge too far.

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Speaker 2: But now that he won't say where we're getting this

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Speaker 2: quote unquote be from I have a feeling you and

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Speaker 2: I are trying horse.

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Speaker 1: What just let the record show Jesse is very tired.

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Speaker 1: This is from a tree, a tweet that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: said when he was on the plane flying back from wherever.

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Speaker 1: It was probably I don't know where he's been, but

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Speaker 1: he's he was. I guess he was flying from New

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Speaker 1: Jersey to his little Grand Prix in DC, which shows

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Speaker 1: how laser focused on affordability. Donald Trump is play the tweet,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to point out that it was

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Speaker 1: posted by a Trumper called the Patriotic Blonde.

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Speaker 2: Nothing feels more on brand for this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, question is what do you have to say to

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Speaker 1: us farmers?

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Speaker 3: You feel that the deal is benefiting Argentina more than

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Speaker 3: it is them.

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Speaker 4: As they are, Argentinea is fighting for its life, young lady.

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Speaker 4: You don't know anything about it. They're fighting for their life.

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Speaker 4: Nothing is benefiting Argentina. They're fighting for their life. You

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Speaker 4: understand what that means. They have no money, they have

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Speaker 4: no anything. They're fighting so hard to survive. If I

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Speaker 4: can help them survive in a free world. I happen

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Speaker 4: to like the president of Argentina. I think he's trying

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Speaker 4: to do the best he can. But don't make it

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Speaker 4: sound like they're doing great. They are dying, all right,

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Speaker 4: They're dying. What do you mean by me?

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Speaker 1: The question is.

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Speaker 2: Why why is our Tina doing bad? I can't figure

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Speaker 2: it out.

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Speaker 1: I just want to point out this as a Trump

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Speaker 1: patriotic blonde says. He says, this is seventy seven cattle

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Speaker 1: producers are going out of business in the United States. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's just a really good example of Donald Trump laser

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Speaker 1: focused on affordability. No, I'm just kidding. Look, we're buying

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Speaker 1: the Argentinian beef because Trump things that will make beef cheaper.

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Speaker 1: But here is the I think the problem for Trump

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Speaker 1: and probably for all of us, is that it is

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Speaker 1: going to hurt American beef producers. And these are people

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Speaker 1: who have voted for Trump numerous times and penny wise

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Speaker 1: pound foolish thing that Donald Trump does, and the question

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Speaker 1: of whether or not, as we know, it's actually quite

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Speaker 1: hard to get these things, these prices to go down

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Speaker 1: even if you are doing right there. So there is

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Speaker 1: also a real chance at the prices won't go down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we discussed that later in the podcast with Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 2: As we know, he and Scott the Center very concerned

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Speaker 2: with keeping Argentina propped up, mostly because there's some apparently

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Speaker 2: some investments there.

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Speaker 5: Right now, we have to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about his other hobby, which is moving ahead with

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Speaker 2: the ballroom, and you'll be shocked to hear the sick

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Speaker 2: offense the Supreme Court or are helping him out.

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Speaker 1: So Donald Trump is laser focused on renovating Washington, DC

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Speaker 1: and the i want to say, the Natalie Harp of

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, just as John Roberts is allowing Trump

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Speaker 1: to continue construction on the ballroom on Friday. So you'll

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Speaker 1: remember that Donald Trump is constantly running to the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court to try to get stuff. Like he's gone I

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Speaker 1: think two or three times to try to get them

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Speaker 1: to overturn the Egene Carroll settlement. It has now worked. Now, well,

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Speaker 1: he went to them for the ballroom. If you're the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, you got to feel pretty stupid right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean you got to be like, there's no end

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Speaker 1: to this, right Like you can see a world where

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Speaker 1: he tries to come to them after the midterms to

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Speaker 1: try to get them over during the midterms anyway, So

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Speaker 1: the National Trust for Historic Preservation, known Libtards, initiated the

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Speaker 1: legal challenge against Trump's ballroom on the grounds that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the authority, but he is already torn it down.

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Speaker 1: The organization's lawyer said, Trump is trying to outrun the courts,

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Speaker 1: which is, by the way, something we've seen him do endlessly.

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Speaker 1: Last year, Trump bad the ballroom won't interfere with the

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Speaker 1: current building. By the way, last year, as he vowed

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Speaker 1: that private companies were going to pay for it, that

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Speaker 1: he was going to pay for it, that this one

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Speaker 1: was going to pay for it, that that one was

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Speaker 1: going to pay for it, he claimed it would only

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Speaker 1: cost two hundred million, then three hundred million, then four

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Speaker 1: hundred million. Later at emergened taxpayers would be footing half

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Speaker 1: the bill for six hundred million dollar project. By the way,

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Speaker 1: you think that we're going to pay for half of it,

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Speaker 1: because I think we're going to pay for all of it.

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Speaker 1: And so, but the Supreme Court laser focused on their

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Speaker 1: own legacy and not making Donald Trump mad at them

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Speaker 1: because they would not want the mean tweets. Their laser

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Speaker 1: focused on just letting Trump have whatever he wants.

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Speaker 2: So this is a real shocker. Actually, when I was

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Speaker 2: reading this article today, I was like, this shows where

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Speaker 2: we're at these days. Greg Abbott a guy who will

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Speaker 2: do anything to be on the opposite side of the

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Speaker 2: Buitard culture war things, to the point that you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the most egregious ice murders he's defending that

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Speaker 2: guy and keeping him from Keith Ellis and extraditing him.

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Speaker 2: Greg Abbott says that data centers have dugged their own grave.

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Speaker 1: He's not wrong. I mean, this is the stuff clock

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Speaker 1: very right. I mean, so basically data centers. It's like

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Speaker 1: one of the very few eighty twenty issues. The left

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Speaker 1: hates them. The right hates them, you know why, because

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Speaker 1: they suck and they're horrible. And but like, what I

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Speaker 1: love about these Republicans is there, Like Greg Abbott is

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Speaker 1: not saying that because he wants to stop them from

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Speaker 1: building data centers. He's saying that because he wants Republicans

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Speaker 1: not to run on data centers, right, because he wants

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Speaker 1: them to win. It's like it's like the Max Miller thing, right.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump doesn't want Max Miller to drop out of

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Speaker 1: the race. Now it's too late, but he didn't want

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Speaker 1: him to drop by the race because Max Miller was

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Speaker 1: accused of all these horrible things. He wanted him dropping

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Speaker 1: out because he didn't think he could win. So Abbott

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Speaker 1: has changed course on AA data centers because he really

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Speaker 1: wants to win. He wants enthusiastically courted them, and now

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Speaker 1: he become uh, he is now pretending not to. I

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Speaker 1: think that is the way to say it. So last November,

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Speaker 1: Abbot called Texas the epicenter of AI development. In June,

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Speaker 1: he directed state regulators to make data centers pay the

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Speaker 1: full cost of the electrical infrastructure they require, by the way,

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Speaker 1: the least they could fucking do. Called for phasing our

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Speaker 1: tax incentives. Earlier this month, he ordered regulators to auto

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Speaker 1: dat I mean, by the way, like I would take

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Speaker 1: anything that this guy Greg Abbott does with the humongous

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Speaker 1: grain of salt, because remember.

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Speaker 2: A beach of salt might be better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean, these guys are just fucking corrupt.

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Speaker 1: He told ABC's Jonathan Carl that the backlash terms from

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Speaker 1: the sheer speed of the build out. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's right. I think people really hate those. So s

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Speaker 1: sixty nine percent of Democrats, fifty four percent of Republicans,

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Speaker 1: and fifty three percent of independence oppose new data centers.

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Speaker 1: You know they want them, they just don't want them. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think they want them.

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Speaker 2: But as one of my group chats said the other day,

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Speaker 2: there has never been something that turned people to Nimby's

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Speaker 2: faster than data centers.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, because nobody wants them. And there I mean. Also,

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Speaker 1: you know, the other thing is we have yet to

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Speaker 1: hear why you know what I mean, like why we're doing.

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Speaker 1: I understand there's some stuff everybody tells me. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: does great stuff. I have just seen the like Aislow

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Speaker 1: But and I guess searches. I don't know. I have

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Speaker 1: yet to have my life change by Rick Wilson is

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Speaker 1: the founder and the Lincoln Project and the host of

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Speaker 1: The Lincoln Project podcast.

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Speaker 6: Rick Wilson, Hello, Molly, how's your day?

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Speaker 1: Just you know, another day. So here's my us for you.

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Speaker 1: We are in the middle of the Natalie harp gop meltdown, Donald.

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Speaker 6: Trump, the Never Ending Harpathon.

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Speaker 1: The Harpathon. Donald Trump has a personal aid. She is

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Speaker 1: she's a she's a presidential aid, right, what I mean what?

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Speaker 1: And she writes his tweets. And she also declined to

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Speaker 1: get a security clearance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and and she she rides in the back of

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Speaker 3: the Motorcato.

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Speaker 6: By the back of the motorcata, I think it's a Trump,

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Speaker 6: that's right.

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Speaker 1: And then this weekend we saw lots of photos of

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Speaker 1: her running after golf cards. Somebody is doing the Lincoln

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Speaker 1: from the White House.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm going to make and make the call

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Speaker 3: right now. Molly and I've talked about this a little bit.

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Speaker 3: If you know Susie Wiles would she does not like

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Speaker 3: wild cards. She doesn't like cuckoos. She likes professionals. She

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Speaker 3: likes people who can be relied upon to take care

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Speaker 3: of the mission and the job. Natalie Harp is the

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Speaker 3: kind of wild card that sends a Susie Wiles into

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Speaker 3: an apoplectic fit. And so my guess here is that

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Speaker 3: a lot of it, Yes, I think some of it

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Speaker 3: is coming from Carolyn Levitt, who who're not happy being

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Speaker 3: left behind on the death plane. But some of it

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Speaker 3: has definitely got the smell of a sort of Susie

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Speaker 3: Wiles purge, the crazy operation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I want to I want to do another

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Speaker 1: minute on that. The decoy plane. So earlier in the

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Speaker 1: last two week news cycle, we learned about this decoy plane.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's hidden in a catering truck he takes with him.

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Speaker 1: Natalie Harp on the decoy plane are basically everyone else

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Speaker 1: except for Pete Heggsa's right.

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Speaker 3: Listen, Natalie is now entering into a space in our politics,

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Speaker 3: Molly that is not a space you want to be

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Speaker 3: in as a presidential aid. The presidential aid's job is

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Speaker 3: to never be the story, to never ever be the story.

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Speaker 3: And right now she is the story. And you know,

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Speaker 3: it's weird because last weekend this was a big story

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Speaker 3: and I would have thought, Okay, it'll fall apart in

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Speaker 3: a few days.

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Speaker 6: It'll it'll get boring, you know, whatever the mystery is.

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Speaker 6: The mystery is maybe Milania is going to leak a

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Speaker 6: little bit about it, who knows.

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Speaker 3: But but the story hasn't gone away, It hasn't gotten

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Speaker 3: better because the White House has screwed this up so badly.

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Speaker 3: They have messed us up in every possible dimension. And

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Speaker 3: not only the press can't look away from it, but

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Speaker 3: now everybody else in the White House can't look away

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Speaker 3: from it because the power that Harp has inside the

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Speaker 3: White House is to be the last person in the

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Speaker 3: room with Donald Trump at all times, which would don't

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Speaker 3: she listens to the last person in the room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But they also I also think that they really

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Speaker 1: did streisan this thing right like this.

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Speaker 6: Of course you're no, you're one hundred percent right.

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Speaker 1: Like this weekend. This week we had Malania come out

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Speaker 1: and say I hear you missed me? Right?

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Speaker 6: Why you missing me so much?

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Speaker 1: Right? So she comes back, which then again is more

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Speaker 1: carosene on the fire. At every point there was an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to just like let this thing die and.

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Speaker 3: Hold it off, to let it die, to stop talking

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Speaker 3: about it, and yet they won't stop talking about it,

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Speaker 3: and I listen. Part of that is that it's being

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Speaker 3: driven by what I'm what I'm gonna what I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: call by my just theoretical knowledge, no internal knowledge, the

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Speaker 3: Wiles Leavitt.

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Speaker 6: Faction, let's just call that for the moment, right, But.

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Speaker 3: They've also driven it because all of the MAGA influencers

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Speaker 3: who have been marching to the orders, you know, and

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Speaker 3: those guys normally take their their their marching orders from Scavino,

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Speaker 3: right and from Stephen Chung. They're all out there just

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Speaker 3: tearing there.

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Speaker 6: How dare you not only harm is the finest little Americans?

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Speaker 6: How tell you, sir?

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Speaker 3: And it is it is making them look crazy, yes,

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Speaker 3: it is making it sound like somebody's sent orders down,

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Speaker 3: like defend the president's girlfriend rather than let's put this

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Speaker 3: crisis behind us.

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Speaker 1: And also Scaveno, not Scavino, Stephen Chung had this first

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Speaker 1: tweet that was the one that actually drew all the

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Speaker 1: attention to it to begin with, which.

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Speaker 3: Was tax John os Off and like calling John oss

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Speaker 3: Off a cuck. Sorry, if there's a cuck in the room,

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Speaker 3: it's it's Stephen Chung sitting on the extra strength cup chair. Well,

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Speaker 3: but they caused this problem for themselves money. They bought

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Speaker 3: this entire problem by being idiots.

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Speaker 1: But and you know what's funny about this story is

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Speaker 1: like they're doing, they're trying to distract from they would

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Speaker 1: like to distract from this, but what they're doing this weekend,

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Speaker 1: that's like the real story if you wanted to. You

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Speaker 1: know how, there's always sort of a real story in

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Speaker 1: a fake story. The real story is the absolute disastrous

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Speaker 1: trade war with kat.

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Speaker 6: Which is molly.

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Speaker 3: I mean, first off, somebody tweeted about this yesterday thread

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Speaker 3: it I guess, and it was like master of the

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Speaker 3: Art of the Deal blows deal with friendliest nation on Earth.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Canada was ready to put this behind us

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Speaker 3: and to cool it off, and yet Trump had to

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Speaker 3: go in and be an asshole. And he went into

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Speaker 3: be an asshole because of two big things. One, Canada,

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Speaker 3: for its own needs, has to keep some of it,

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Speaker 3: some of its own petroleum production.

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Speaker 6: They do need gas still and diesel, and he.

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Speaker 3: Wanted more because he's burned through all of our strategic

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Speaker 3: reserves and started a war that he can't win in Iran,

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Speaker 3: which is driven the price and the supply of oil,

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Speaker 3: the price up and the supply supplied.

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Speaker 6: Down down, And so he's mad at Canada instant himself.

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Speaker 3: It's the classic Trump thing, like like, yeah, sure, I

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Speaker 3: blew everything up. I really I really messed up. I've

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Speaker 3: done everything wrong. But hey, look at these guys over here. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, that is that is going to be a

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Speaker 3: massive story.

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Speaker 6: Canada is our largest trading partner. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It just the degree of incompetence among among these people,

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Speaker 3: the incompetence of Trump World never stops growing.

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Speaker 6: All this time.

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Speaker 3: You think, yeah, maybe they've hit a peek, maybe they're

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Speaker 3: maybe they've done as much damage as they can.

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Speaker 6: But oh no, it's always like hold my beer, dude,

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Speaker 6: We're going to do some more damage.

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Speaker 1: But the Canada thing, I think is important for a

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Speaker 1: number of reasons that are relevant to this moment too,

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Speaker 1: which is we're less than eighty days from the midterms.

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Speaker 1: We have these Senate races in states that but Canada,

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Speaker 1: May Michigan. Those are two seats of Democrats. Alaska desperately

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Speaker 1: need to win and they're competitive, and like, this is

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Speaker 1: a gift to doctor l said, it's a gift to

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Speaker 1: Troy jen It's a gift to Marry Potola to explain

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Speaker 1: to us why.

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Speaker 3: All these all of these states that you're talking about

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Speaker 3: right now, correctly, you've exactly identified the issue. These states

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Speaker 3: conduct a tremendous amount of their own economic enterprise between themselves.

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Speaker 3: In Canada, I mean Michigan and Canada have traditionally over

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Speaker 3: what was the the old Bridge and now the new bridge,

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Speaker 3: Billions and billions of dollars every single day go back.

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Speaker 6: And forth between these countries.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's food or auto parts, everything is. It is

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Speaker 3: a massive, massive economic driver for that economy. And if

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Speaker 3: you want to put a single party behind the damage

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Speaker 3: that's going to do to Michigan's economy, it's Donald Trump's party.

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Speaker 3: Not only because it's Donald Trump doing it, but also

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Speaker 3: because not a single Republican will stand up and say,

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Speaker 3: mister President, these tariffs are wrong and they're hurting us.

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Speaker 3: You know that's going to happen again in Maine, Susan

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Speaker 3: Collins can.

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Speaker 5: Say, I just feel these tariffs aren't right.

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Speaker 6: But since you'll go and vote for every single thing

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Speaker 6: Trump wants, it's going to really hurt her. In Alaska,

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Speaker 6: same story, Mary Peltola is going to go to Sullivan

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Speaker 6: and say, hey, you back the tariffs that are hurting

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Speaker 6: our economy, and he's gonna have to say, Muhammed ahmmahammada,

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Speaker 6: Donald Trump is a genius. They are in a bad

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Speaker 6: spot on these and even broader than that, Molly.

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Speaker 3: One of the groups in America you could profile as

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Speaker 3: being some of the most pro Trump people in the world.

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Speaker 3: Cattlemen and farmers and ranchers. Okay, they have been screwed

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Speaker 3: this week by the announcement that Trump is going to

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Speaker 3: bring in six hundred thousand tons of Brazilian and Argentinian

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Speaker 3: mystery meat to try to bring the price of beef down.

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Speaker 3: And the reason American cattlemen and ranchers and farmers have

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Speaker 3: been so hurt is his tariffs have destroyed their overseas

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Speaker 3: markets soybeans, corn, timber, and his war has driven up

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Speaker 3: the price of fertilizer and fuel. And so you've got

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Speaker 3: this weekend, there's a grassroots explosion happening across this country

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Speaker 3: of people who voted for Trump three times, who voted

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Speaker 3: Republican three times in the last three election cycles, who

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Speaker 3: are reddest red state guys, and they're like, I'm on,

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Speaker 3: he's killing our farms.

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Speaker 1: No. I mean, it is so interesting because we do

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Speaker 1: really have like Donald tripp is doing the opposite of

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Speaker 1: what his voters wanted him to do. And I think

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Speaker 1: the other thing about the tariffs, besides the specifics of

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Speaker 1: like hurting the specific economies of these states, is that

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Speaker 1: it will it ultimately makes things more expensive too, So

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to get things to be cheaper, which

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Speaker 1: is I mean the irony here, I feel like is

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration. You would watch them desperately trying to

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Speaker 1: get inflation to go down, and they would do everything

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Speaker 1: they could do it and it didn't work because very

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Speaker 1: hard to get inflation go down. Here's Donald Trump doing

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Speaker 1: things to make inflation go up.

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Speaker 3: Correct, he is the Every action he's taking with tariffs

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Speaker 3: is directly inflationary, every single one. And by the way, Molly,

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Speaker 3: one of the inflationary things about this that the White

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Speaker 3: House was not smart enough to figure out is grocery

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Speaker 3: store chains are going to buy this cheap beef and

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Speaker 3: not lower their prices. They're going to keep the profit

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Speaker 3: off the cheap beef. They're gonna keep the beef prices

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Speaker 3: where they are right now. They can't cut prices because

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Speaker 3: they are all driven by the quarterly report you know

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Speaker 3: world that they all live in. They've all they've all

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Speaker 3: got to report their earnings every quarter, and if they

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Speaker 3: cut prices when they've gotten opportunity, they're gonna get punished

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Speaker 3: by their shareholders. They're they're not driven by the market

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Speaker 3: incentives people think they are. They don't care about market share.

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Speaker 3: They're all pretty much not monopolistic. But but in most places,

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Speaker 3: most states, there's pretty much a very narrow range. So

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Speaker 3: they're not going to be competing on price. They're gonna

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Speaker 3: they're gonna pocket. They're gonna pocket the savings that they're

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Speaker 3: gonna get by this cheaper beef coming in from overseas,

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Speaker 3: and consumers are still gonna get screwed. So Trump hurts farmers, ranchers, cattlemen,

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Speaker 3: but doesn't actually help consumers in the end. It's it's

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Speaker 3: an act of tre genius. I don't know if we've

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Speaker 3: ever had a smarter president than this, except all of

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Speaker 3: the rest of them.

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Speaker 1: But there is also the world in which these Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump does something that capitalists love to scream about, which

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Speaker 1: is price controls.

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Speaker 3: You know, as I grew up in that free market

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Speaker 3: Republican party, we were always so in love with price controls.

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Speaker 6: It was really our favorite thing to do that.

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Speaker 3: And seizing the means of production, of course, another of

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Speaker 3: our favorite things. Oh wait, that's the communists.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing though. Donald Trump said we're going

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Speaker 1: to run on communism this midterm, so none of that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm old enough to remember that when they

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Speaker 1: had those fake caravans. Yeah right, they're not even bothering

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Speaker 1: with the caravans. They're just going to do communism this time.

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Speaker 1: But they're also going to do price controls and seizing

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Speaker 1: public companies.

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Speaker 3: All I can say is is the combination of taking

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Speaker 3: over companies from the White House, where where as we

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Speaker 3: are all aware the Trump family is getting some slice

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Speaker 3: of each one of these companies on the back end, somehow,

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Speaker 3: there's some deal going out.

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Speaker 1: Question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the fact that he's done that for dozens of

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Speaker 3: companies now basically taking them over as as US government entities. Now,

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Speaker 3: I mean, at some point, why doesn't he take over

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Speaker 3: Walmart and call it the Trump distribution system Trump?

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Speaker 6: It would not.

435
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 3: I shouldn't have even said that he's going to get

436
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: that idea in his head now and do it. But

437
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 3: you know he's doing everything. Oh what are hallmarks of

438
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: communist systems taking over the means of production? Check controlling

439
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: who can produce what, where and when? Check secret police

440
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 3: force in the streets.

441
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 6: Check.

442
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, play the internationale instead of the

443
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 3: national anthem for this guy, because that's what it.

444
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 6: Looks like more and more right.

445
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: And it's also I want to talk about sort of

446
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: the landscape for a minute. So there was this big

447
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: reporting from Maggie and Annie Carney about this meeting between

448
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner and you may know him as elected to nothing, yes,

449
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: and Keem Jeffries, you may know him as wanting desperately

450
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: to be the Speaker of the House. Talk us through

451
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: what you think that, what's your take on that?

452
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 3: So neither party is talking about it yet, but we

453
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: know the meeting took place from this excellent reporting. And

454
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 3: all I have to say to Hakim is, what the fuck, dude?

455
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: There is zero reason whatsoever to meet with the president's

456
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,479
Speaker 3: son in law, who is his bagman, who is also

457
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: in the pocket of various Middle Eastern oil interests and

458
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 3: billionaires as their bagman, who is also running around the

459
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 3: world as a non credentialed diplomat for the president, seeking

460
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: basically bribes for Donald Trump in these countries in exchange

461
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: for foreign policy. Jared Kushner presents in this mild sort

462
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 3: of Westworld robot way, but he is lavishly and wildly corrupt.

463
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: Kim Jeffrey should have had the judgment to never take

464
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: a meeting with this guy, because that guy, if the

465
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: Democrats win, needs to be in front of committees being

466
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 3: investigated rather than getting a meeting with the future speaker.

467
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: I don't know if there was some motivation for them

468
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 3: to meet other than Donald Trump offering is goddamn resignation.

469
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 3: I don't get it. I'm not and it's seventy days

470
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 3: to the election. Molly, why would you do this? Why

471
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 3: on earth would you do this? I want to I

472
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 3: would love to know an explanation, but I ain't seeing

473
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 3: one so far.

474
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: So you want to, can we let's do a game

475
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: for a minute where we guess who who hooked them up.

476
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: Who broke this meeting? Because I have a guess, and

477
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: I want to I.

478
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 6: Have a guess. I think it was truck Chuck Schumer.

479
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: Really, that's not my guess. Tell me why you think that?

480
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 3: Because he knows the dad and he and I'm sure

481
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: he knows Jared enough, and why why would he do it?

482
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: Because he still believes that my honorable friends across the

483
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: aisle can be negotiated with.

484
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so my guess you're ready for my guest. My

485
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: guess is there are there are donors who donate bot

486
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: to Trump and some Democrats and they said to Keim,

487
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: you got to meet with Jared.

488
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: I think that's as good an explanation as mine, and

489
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 3: maybe better because.

490
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: Your explanation it gives him more benefit of the doubt. Right.

491
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: If Chuck has put this together, it's because there's anxiety

492
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: that Trump is going to mess with the midterms and

493
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: they're trying to back channel with Jared.

494
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 6: Let me tell you something. So far, I think you could.

495
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 6: You could.

496
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 3: I think you could put the evidence of Trump messing

497
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: with the midterms, you know, as as as unqualified fact

498
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: at this point, right, But I still don't know that

499
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: that I don't know that Hakeem or Chuck Schumer would

500
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 3: would burn the world down even if they knew about it.

501
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: That's my that's my fear is that they're just going

502
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 3: to be too passive about everything. But the optics of

503
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: taking this meeting. There better be a really good reason

504
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: for it.

505
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: Right, So if Chuck Schumer organized it, at least there's

506
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: the possibility that it was for protecting the midterms, making

507
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: sure that the new House gets seated if they win.

508
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: You could make a case that they had more less

509
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: nefarious goals. If a big Democratic slash Trump donor, of

510
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: which we know there are not many, but there are

511
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who know.

512
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 6: There's a meaningful number of those. There's a non zero

513
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 6: number of those. I mean, that's a real group.

514
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: If those people did a meeting and arranged a meeting

515
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: between Jaren and Hakim, then what do we think they

516
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: were doing? Because I think they are trying to protect you,

517
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: trying to protect what APAXPA and Israel writ large could.

518
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 6: Be could be.

519
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: But I will say this again, Jared Kushner is not

520
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: an honest broker in this fight. He is not a

521
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 3: legitimate representative of the of even the president in this fight,

522
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: because yes, he's.

523
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 6: The son in law.

524
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: But but we now have a decade of evidence about

525
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: who Jared Kushner is. He is not representing America's interests.

526
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: He is representing the interests of the people who own

527
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: him and his hedge fund from the Middle East, from

528
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: Saudi and from Qatar. And I do not see Jared

529
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: as a as an honest broker in this if it's

530
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: about Israel. If it's about Israel, they could have said

531
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 3: so and and and Hakim would have had some cover

532
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: on that from from a meaningful number of his Look,

533
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: some of his cocks would have been pissy about it,

534
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: most of his caucuses would not.

535
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 5: Right.

536
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: But my fear is that is that Jared presents less trumpy.

537
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: Right then then the weirdos and the yahoos and the

538
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: and the and the dipshits in the cabinet.

539
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 6: That does not make him less dangerous.

540
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think we'll see what happens with that.

541
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: But remember the the elections in Israel happened a month

542
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: before the elections in America.

543
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: So so I talked to somebody on Thursday. He said,

544
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: it's Israel's going through the usual thing right now, there's

545
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: there are some you know, aggressive candidates going up against BB,

546
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: and BB is pulling out all the stops, all the

547
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: extra legal bullshit. And and this person is not a

548
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: fan of BB Netanyahu by any conceivable stretch the imagination.

549
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 3: And he's like, listen, I still give the guy odds

550
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: to win because he's just, he's just he appeals to

551
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: enough of those small religious parties and enough of his

552
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: traditional base that he's going to try to cling on.

553
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 3: Would it be better for the world if he wasn't? Absolutely?

554
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: But what if Netan Yahoo wins another term. I think

555
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: it's very concerning for for the prospects of of of

556
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: not anything the US, but but for the globe because

557
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: you know, if you want to look at the approximate

558
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: cause of Trump taking the bait on Iran, it's that teleconference.

559
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 6: That he had with Nahoa, who psyched him into it.

560
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: Because Trump's not that smart and he's not that he's

561
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: not that good at this at this game, and Netanya,

562
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: who is a master of this game.

563
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, well, you've dr on fast, will you come back?

564
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: You bet?

565
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: You is fantasy Land and the breakup We love Evergreenery, Welcome, Welcome,

566
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: Courda Anderson.

567
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 5: It is my pleasure to be here, Molly Shans.

568
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what is happening in this insane moment.

569
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: You've written a novel that is called The Breakup, and

570
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: it is about how in a post Trump America that

571
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: finds itself trying to become something other than what it is.

572
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 7: Corriscus, Well, it's set in twenty forty five, and I

573
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 7: sketch out in some detail the backstory that happened before then,

574
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 7: which in short form is POSTMAGA.

575
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: There is a big democratic resurgence, power taken, Congress taken

576
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 5: eventually trifecta. They get the presidency and push, as many

577
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 5: Democrats think they should, for instance, to expand the Supreme

578
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 5: Court and make Washington d C. In Puerto Rico State

579
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 5: and so on and so forth, which the result of which,

580
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 5: or of which is for the various right wing violent

581
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 5: militias to rise up and start killing people and assassinating

582
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 5: people and kidnapping people and blowing stuff up. And then

583
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 5: there's this uprising or civil war call it what you will,

584
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 5: that happened in the mid twenty thirties. You hear about

585
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 5: that in flashbacks juralistically in the novel. But here's this

586
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 5: couple in this family, living in twenty forty five who

587
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 5: have been through it politically somewhat different people, culturally very

588
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 5: different people. Asher and excuse me, Asher and Natalie Zimbless.

589
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 5: They were living together in Nashville. Now he's moved to

590
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 5: San Francisco and she's moved away from San Francisco back

591
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 5: to Tennessee. That's the story. And it's and they drive

592
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 5: around the country with their kids, going on a college tour,

593
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 5: and and that's that's the book. But yeah, it's so

594
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: it's it's the war is in the past. So it's

595
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 5: not like that movie Civil War that was all about

596
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 5: the war that that is a fact in the past

597
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 5: that they are now America's now dealing with And we

598
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 5: got our national divorce and the national divorce is just

599
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 5: about final as this book takes place.

600
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: So what is a national divorce? Besides like what, so

601
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: I asked you this question. I'm mourning, Joe, so what.

602
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: But I'm still a little bit curious when rexit obviously different,

603
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: but it's a separation. It's a legal separation, and it's

604
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: not it was pretty bloodless, right, totally, nobody's going to

605
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: war with the EU. But but it's very expensive and

606
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: has created a lot of problems for the UK. Not

607
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: so many problems for the EU, but you know, still

608
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: a headache and expensive. I wonder what doesn't it strike

609
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: you that much of civil war, and you know you

610
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: write about this in the book, but much of civil

611
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: war is this or on, you know, the civil the

612
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: very civil war is mostly just like lawyers and everything

613
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: getting more expensive and more regulation.

614
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, the EU, yeah, becks, it was

615
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 5: for many people in the UK a small disaster. But

616
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 5: you know, the EU had only been a country for

617
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 5: thirty x years, right, Belgium and Hungary and Britain didn't

618
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 5: feel like states. Right, It was never that, it was this,

619
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 5: It was this attempt is attempt, bureaucratic affiliation, very very

620
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 5: different thing than a two urnred and seventy year old country.

621
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 5: Right and so and here we are, this giant country

622
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: today in real life, you know, not getting a law

623
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 5: and seeming to me to have less and less I

624
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 5: see less and less obvious endgame where it all gets

625
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 5: normal again, we find common ground and we go on

626
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 5: medic you know, messy democracy all that. I don't see

627
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 5: it really happening, And there can be peaceful, you know,

628
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 5: a Brexit like thing, and more extreme in this case,

629
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 5: because it would be for instance, states having more states

630
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 5: rights left and right than they've ever had since the

631
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 5: Civil War right, and you know, or like Czechoslovakia thirty

632
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 5: years ago, which but in two very very peacefully or

633
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 5: as is not impossible. It seems less far fetched for

634
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 5: me today than it did when I started writing this book,

635
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 5: and you encouraged me to write it six years ago.

636
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 5: It seems less far fetched. So I'm not saying it's

637
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 5: gonna happen, but I think it's a contingency. The national divorce,

638
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 5: whether violent or peaceful or whatever, is worth having on

639
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 5: the table and talking about it and reading about it.

640
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 5: I mean, it's really and it's not like a fake

641
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: textbook from the future. It is about this family who

642
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 5: have lived through it and how it redounds in their marriage, which,

643
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 5: by the way, they're separate. They've been separated for six months,

644
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 5: so that's what it is, and it's it's but I

645
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 5: don't I find it hard to imagine. And I'd say

646
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 5: it's America going forward its current form, absent some kind

647
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 5: of radical governance transformation. I really, I just I'm not

648
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 5: saying it's impossible, it can't happen. Nothing is inevitable in

649
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 5: the future. The future is fiction, but its nature so

650
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 5: which is That's why I wrote it now. But I

651
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 5: just don't I if we've learned nothing else the last

652
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 5: ten years, right, that is that things that seemed unthinkable

653
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 5: a very few years ago are like whoop, here we go.

654
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 5: It's the unthinkable becomes thinkable and done.

655
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: You know, so let me ask you. It doesn't strike me.

656
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: And again, I really could be wrong, but I'm not

657
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: seeing the thing that I'm seeing more and more of

658
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: an I live in a very complicated world, so but

659
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm seeing more and more up versus down, over, left

660
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: versus right, Like people are angry at billionaires, sure, and

661
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: they're not so like the anger that I see is

662
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: not necessarily like in twenty sixteen, I would see I

663
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: saw a lot of like needs at you know, MAGA

664
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: voters raging. Now it strikes me that MAGA voters are

665
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: upset about the cost of gas, right, they're upset about

666
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: the Iran war. But we do see a lot of

667
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: rage towards the very rich. Whatever that looks like. So

668
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: would that change the calculus of this national divorce. If

669
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: it's not left versus right, but it's up versus down

670
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: or down versus out.

671
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 5: Well, it is one of those things, right, I mean,

672
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 5: I know, I know, in the last whatever year or whatever,

673
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 5: we're all all of us who's pay attention more attential

674
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 5: to politics than ninety five percent or more of Americans

675
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 5: talk about that. And it's true, and good for it

676
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 5: and good on it. And the misplaced loathing and hatred

677
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 5: of say, immigrants, maybe someone that's being transferred to the rich,

678
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 5: evil geniuses who got us here and got you here,

679
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 5: maybe it might happen. Of course, there is a political party,

680
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 5: and Trump won't run it forever. But it's a political

681
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 5: party that is, after all, the party of the ruling class,

682
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 5: and it's in this uncomfortable thing of trying to be

683
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 5: the party of the working class as well. And I've

684
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 5: thought for a few years that that can't la. They're

685
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 5: gonna they're going to see it, and you know, maybe

686
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 5: they are. And and again, the war I depict is

687
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 5: not simply a right wing versus left. The the the

688
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 5: loose confederation of all these fighters and shooters and people

689
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 5: around the country are not some They don't have a

690
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 5: national charter. You know, it's not so it's it's it's

691
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 5: it's you know, it's up and versus it's down versus

692
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 5: up and down of all stripes versus say, big tech,

693
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 5: as well as the conventional I hate immigrants, I hate

694
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 5: gay people all that. So you know, I don't think

695
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 5: I think it's I think as a as a as

696
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 5: an historian, which I've been the last two books and

697
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 5: now maybe in a storian of the future, but in

698
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 5: this fictional speculative way to speculate, to extrapolate from well,

699
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 5: this is what is happening to day or this year,

700
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 5: and oh look, Josh Howley hates big tech too. Oh

701
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 5: that means well, it means something.

702
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 6: But like.

703
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 5: I a's why I set this same ten twenty years

704
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 5: in the future. It's like all kinds of things can happen,

705
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 5: all kinds of the axes to your point, correct point,

706
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 5: it's up versus downvers left and versus right and left

707
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 5: versus right is not irrelevant at all, but it's it's

708
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 5: it's no longer a thank goodness, regarded as the only axis,

709
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 5: especially with the right being you know, you know, ninety

710
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 5: percent off the rails in its organized form in America.

711
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: So why don't we can we talk about sort of

712
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: you've been We were talking about this in the green room,

713
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: and I think it's pretty I was saying, you know,

714
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: I've Yeah, I didn't.

715
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 5: I didn't spend much time in.

716
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: Your gream no, in the in the s nowroom, and

717
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: I was musing that I had spent ten years covering

718
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, and you were amusing that you had spent

719
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: forty years. And because you have, you created Spy magazine,

720
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: You've been just around for a long time, and you

721
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: and you have this perspective, which you know, which a

722
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: bunch of us do, though you much more than may

723
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: of like having seen Roy Cohne in action, having seen

724
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: the New York that created Donald Trump, and having lived

725
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: in it, the tabloid daily news kind of New York

726
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: post nineteen eighties comes from the seventies, aids the whole

727
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: kidding kaboodle of that culture which created, which created Roy

728
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: Cone and then created Donald Trump. So I'd love you

729
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: to just talk about you know, we're so many years

730
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: removed from that, but so much of it still plays,

731
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: so so you know, plays so dominantly in the psyche

732
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, and so much of this administration is

733
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: merely Donald Trump acting out in different ways. So it's

734
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: actually as relevant as it's ever been. So I'd love

735
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: you to just talk through that.

736
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: Well.

737
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 5: I think all of those everything that he was in

738
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty six when we started Spy and recounted his

739
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 5: why he was one of the ten most embarrassing New

740
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 5: Yorkers as we called it in the cover story forty

741
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 5: years ago, just like this fall, all that's still true.

742
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 5: The one thing that is in a certain way, and

743
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 5: there's the Roy Cohne I'd ever give up, fight, fight, fight,

744
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 5: never all that stuff. Sure, that's his ema, But for

745
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 5: my I think you know a thing that it's almost

746
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 5: everything he does in every waking moment, is this thing

747
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 5: we've talked about, we talked about in the Spy and

748
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 5: people have talked about today. Still it's his thirst, his hunger,

749
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 5: his addiction, like jonesing for attention and being people's heads

750
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 5: and being topic of discussion. All there's no such thing

751
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 5: as bad publicity. That has always been this thing, and

752
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 5: now it's become this fucking bizarro world, over the top

753
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 5: version of that. And he is in more people's thoughts

754
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 5: in the world every day than what I don't know

755
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 5: anybody ever since Jesus Julius Caesar. I don't know. But

756
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 5: and so he's got what he wants and he wants

757
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 5: to keep that. So so much of what he does

758
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 5: and how he does it, the stuff that he's never

759
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 5: going to do, take over Greenland, whatever, all the things.

760
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 5: Anything he does any day is like how can I

761
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 5: win that day? Just in terms of attention, And of

762
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 5: course rilying the Libs is one big way to do that,

763
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 5: and he doesn't stop doing that. So that's the thing

764
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 5: the show. And again that was back there. Then he

765
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 5: said when he was a teenager, I want to Yes,

766
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 5: I'll be in real estate like my father was, but

767
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 5: I'll be in show business too. I thought about being

768
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 5: show business, but I can do both. That was his origin.

769
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 5: Then you know, he becomes the star of a big

770
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,959
Speaker 5: successful reality shows. Reality shows were chantastics, and that's what

771
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 5: he is. It is like how do I keep how

772
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 5: do I be a star forever? Because they let you

773
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 5: do anything when you're a star.

774
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's that is It's funny because

775
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 1: I'm thinking through that for a minute, and I'm thinking

776
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: about this idea that Donald Trump is, that Donald Trump

777
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: is really able to to sort of The thing I'm

778
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: struck by is like, when he was that nineteen eighty

779
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: six person, he was not religious, right, I mean he's

780
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: not religious now, but he but he was, Like he's

781
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: become a fixture of evangelicalism. That's one thing that I

782
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: think is interesting. And the other thing that I think

783
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: is interesting is that he was a Democrat too. He

784
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: was at the Clinton wedding. I mean, he was never

785
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: believed in anything, but like, I just would love you

786
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: to talk through those two different changes in Trump's world.

787
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 5: I mean, the religious thing is not a change whatsoever.

788
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 5: It's one of his bigger and most effective lies.

789
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: Yes, brilliantly that he did well.

790
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 5: Well, he does so much well. He's the combination of

791
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 5: imbecility and genius is unprecedented of any historical figure. I mean,

792
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 5: you know, it's amazing.

793
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to interrupt you for a minute

794
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about that interview he did with

795
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: and Where at the beginning of his presidency, where they

796
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: asked him what his favorite part of the Bible was.

797
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 5: Do you remember that Corinthians? Was it something he just.

798
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: Had no idea? You know, he said, what part do

799
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: you like?

800
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 5: You know? No, and it's really a reflection on the decadent.

801
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 8: So much of modern Protestantism is so decade that he

802
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 8: was able, he is able to remain popular with eighty

803
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 8: three percent of them. It's just yeah, it's like, you know,

804
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 8: as I told his TV reality show Apprentice producer Mark

805
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 8: Burnett on my radio show Studio three six Day, I

806
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 8: used to have I said, when we were talking about

807
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 8: his movie at the time about Jesus. He and his

808
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 8: wife made a movie about Jesus. Did they release as

809
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 8: we're talking about when were talking about and then he

810
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 8: brought up Donald Trump and how charitable he is and

811
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 8: how much money the Apprentice gives the charity, and I said,

812
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 8: I was very happy, and I've one of my proudest

813
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 8: moments in radio and podc was I saying, you know,

814
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 8: but Donald Trump is I think the least christ like

815
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 8: person I have ever seen in my life. And they go, oh, wait,

816
00:45:59,160 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 8: that's harsh.

817
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 5: I said, No. I went on and explained it, and

818
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 5: and that's the thing he is, and and the fact

819
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 5: that he is embraced by this you know, this this

820
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 5: body of disjointed you know, non unified Protestant you know,

821
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 5: Evangelicals in the United States is evidence of his wealth, yes,

822
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 5: of his power to get where every he wants by

823
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 5: it lying and and yes, getting abortion made overturning real

824
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 5: vuw way, but also just feeding people absolute fantasies that

825
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 5: political fantasies, whatever fantasies period, that they buy and want

826
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 5: to buy. And uh, you know, it's this, it's this

827
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 5: bad side of America that's always been a bad side

828
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 5: of America. That he was the first president of the

829
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 5: States or leader of a political party to fully fully

830
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 5: embrace right.

831
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: And that's a really good point. It's just such an

832
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: interesting thing, but it is. I think that's a really

833
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: good point that he's he's a good combination of both.

834
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 5: One thing you want to say about Trump and this book.

835
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 5: I kept him out of this novel. I didn't want

836
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 5: it's in the future. Yeah, he hovers over the backstory,

837
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 5: but he's not in it. I cut it down as

838
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 5: much as possible, accept for one pretty spectacular scene where

839
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 5: he dies and not kill not he just dies because

840
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 5: he's Saty ninth birthday, twentieth anniversary of running for president

841
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 5: the first time, going down the escalator in the Trump

842
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 5: Tower and he drops dead, and one hundreds and thousands

843
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 5: of his adherents are there to celebrate his anniversary of

844
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 5: writing for president, and they riot down fifth Abum. So

845
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 5: it's especially for New Yorker's writing that fifth Abdum. It's

846
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 5: a vivid scene of his death. And so I had that,

847
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 5: but he's not in it. So and that has the

848
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 5: second point, which is to say, yes, it's a it's

849
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 5: about a war that happens, it's about breaking up the country.

850
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 5: It's this bad, bad stuff. But it's like divorce, you know.

851
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 5: And that's why national divorce is a good metaphor for me, because,

852
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 5: as we know, some divorces should should happen. As painful

853
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 5: and horrible as they are. Sometimes it's better for the

854
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 5: people and better for the kids. And I that may

855
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 5: be where we're moving in this country.

856
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: It's all I'm saying.

857
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, let's hope not. But a really interesting

858
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: and thoughtful idea and a lot to talk about. Kurt Anderson,

859
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: will you please come back?

860
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 3: Oh?

861
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 5: Why yes, I will anytime you.

862
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: No moment, Rick Wilson, Hey, Molly, So our moment of

863
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: fuckery this week is actually like good.

864
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 3: Oh I know what it is, Yes ahead, fuckery, It's

865
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 3: unfuckery it's it's happy fuckery.

866
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: What is our moment of unfuckery?

867
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: This week, Iowa seems to be a lot less read

868
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: than it was five days ago, and five weeks ago,

869
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 3: and five months ago, and certainly five years ago. I

870
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 3: think I think MAGA has managed to break Iowa because

871
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 3: we got the governor's race moving towards the Democrats, we

872
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 3: got the center race moving towards the Democrats. We got

873
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 3: three of the congressional seats moving swiftly toward the Democrats.

874
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: I think the whole thing is starting to break loose.

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00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: That's good news.

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00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 1: The Cook Political Report has shifted everyone a little bluer

877
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: in the state of Iowa, thanks to the tariffs, thanks

878
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 1: to the polluted groundwater. Thanks, thank you a job.

879
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: Howard Lutnick, Donald Trump, Peter Navarro, you're doing great, doing great.

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00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 6: Keep it up, boys.

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00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

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00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

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00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

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Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

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00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.