Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a bride Egg
Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, Frida Egg Egg,
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run
Speaker 2: off of.
Speaker 1: The course game.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison
Speaker 2: and today we're talking about Royal Melbourne with Michael Clayton.
Speaker 2: This is the slightly delayed fourth episode of our Great
Speaker 2: Courses series from this past December. These have basically been
Speaker 2: deep dives into some of the world's best and most
Speaker 2: influential golf courses. We started with Saint Andrews of course,
Speaker 2: then went to National Golf, Finks and Sunningdale. And I
Speaker 2: can't think of a better way to wrap up this
Speaker 2: initial run of the Great Courses episodes than heading to
Speaker 2: the Australian sand belt and talking about what Alistair McKenzie
Speaker 2: accomplished there. The West Course at Royal Melbourne was really
Speaker 2: McKenzie's first outrageously great design. He had not yet built
Speaker 2: Cyprus Point or Augusta National. He had done some really
Speaker 2: amazing stuff in Great Britain. I don't want to downplay that,
Speaker 2: but the courses that you really know McKenzie for now
Speaker 2: had not yet been produced when he got the Royal
Speaker 2: Melbourne job. So Royal Melbourne was a big step forward
Speaker 2: for McKenzie's career and it was also a big step
Speaker 2: forward for Australian golf. It's tough to overstate the impact
Speaker 2: that Royal Melbourne, both McKenzie's West Course and Alex Russell's
Speaker 2: later East Course had on the game in Australia. And
Speaker 2: there's no better person to talk about all of this
Speaker 2: than Michael Clayton. Mike is a former tour pro, a
Speaker 2: current golf architect and one of the leading voices in
Speaker 2: the game, both in Australia and internationally. He's been on
Speaker 2: our podcast several times before, and I'm super excited to
Speaker 2: have him back to discuss a topic that is so
Speaker 2: very much in his wheelhouse. Before we get to that, though,
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about our sponsor for this episode,
Speaker 2: Club Champion. Club Champion helps golfers of any skill level
Speaker 2: play better golf through custom fitted and custom built equipment.
Speaker 2: They have extensively trained master fitters who provide an in depth,
Speaker 2: data driven, tour level fitting process, and they have access
Speaker 2: to fifty thousand hit able head and shaft combos as
Speaker 2: well as sixty plus brands. This is truly a brand
Speaker 2: agnostic fitting. There is no motive to promote one brand
Speaker 2: over another. Master fitters at Club Champion simply fit you
Speaker 2: into what works best for you. Club Champions fittings produce
Speaker 2: real results for every player, including an average of twenty
Speaker 2: two yard increases off the tee and an average of
Speaker 2: ten yard improvements in dispersion. So I've gone through Club
Speaker 2: Champion fittings myself and I've gotten equipment that really works
Speaker 2: for me. And I've also gotten a lot of knowledge
Speaker 2: from these fittings. Right, I think I went into my
Speaker 2: Club Champion fittings with a certain idea of what I
Speaker 2: should be playing from driver through putter, like what suited
Speaker 2: me the best. But those senses were kind of based
Speaker 2: on trial and error and just you know, unreliable experience.
Speaker 2: Once I went into Club Champion and actually saw the data,
Speaker 2: I got a different idea about what kind of equipment
Speaker 2: suited me best, and that has been enormously helpful ever
Speaker 2: since my fitting. So for Frida Egg, listeners. This is
Speaker 2: the deal that Club Champion is offering right now. You
Speaker 2: can use the code fried Egg to get fifty percent
Speaker 2: off the cost of your fitting with the purchase of
Speaker 2: a club. Go to club champion dot com and book
Speaker 2: your fitting today again, that's called Frida Egg all one word.
Speaker 2: All right, let's get to me and Mike Clayton talking
Speaker 2: about Royal Melbourne. Mike, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for
Speaker 2: being here.
Speaker 1: Thank you. It will be fun down at Bamboogle, So
Speaker 1: it's kind of a treat to be down here for
Speaker 1: a couple of days.
Speaker 2: This will be fun out in Tasmania, just having fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just hanging out, playing golfing. And so I'm playing
Speaker 1: down with Sue. We're down here. So we started off
Speaker 1: the year. We played Royal Melbourne on Tuesday and then
Speaker 1: lost Farm the next day, then bam Boogle yesterday. So
Speaker 1: not the not the worst way to start the year off.
Speaker 1: Three pretty nice courses.
Speaker 2: There are versions of your life that definitely could have
Speaker 2: gone worse.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: All right, so we're we're talking about Roll Melbourne today,
Speaker 2: just kind of going in depth on that golf course,
Speaker 2: which which you know so much about and have talked
Speaker 2: about quite a bit before, and so we're really going
Speaker 2: to dig into this specific course in its history. I'm curious, though,
Speaker 2: what was your first exposure to Royal Melbourne. When did
Speaker 2: you first see the course and play the course.
Speaker 1: I first saw it, I think at the World Cup
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, which is they had they hadn't
Speaker 1: they hadn't had a tournament for a long time. They
Speaker 1: didn't They played the Strain and Open on the East
Speaker 1: Course in nineteen sixty three. Job As he didn't see
Speaker 1: and then so and they didn't play another tournament until
Speaker 1: the World Cup. So we went and watched that and
Speaker 1: it was fearsomely for a Melbourne. It was famous hard
Speaker 1: and fast in the scores. But they rained out the
Speaker 1: first day fifty four holes i think, and the scoring
Speaker 1: was really high. Tom Weiscoff I saw Tom Weiscoff years
Speaker 1: later and he told me that he's at sixth green.
Speaker 1: It was the only green I ever four patted and
Speaker 1: tried on every part, So it was it was, you know,
Speaker 1: it was brutally hard and faster. Scores were high at
Speaker 1: the time and these won. Shae Min Nan and mister
Speaker 1: Lou won, which was surprising because Asians always sort of
Speaker 1: struggling at wrong movie because it was so foreign. The
Speaker 1: tope of golf there was so foreign to what they
Speaker 1: were used to. The greens were so much harder and faster.
Speaker 1: So and then I first played it in nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 1: The big kind of inter club golf is called Pennant
Speaker 1: Golf in Melbourne. Everyone grows up playing Pennit. They played
Speaker 1: there in nine and seventy four, the first time I
Speaker 1: played it.
Speaker 2: And you know, when you were younger, aside from that
Speaker 2: that World Cup, were there any other tournaments that you
Speaker 2: saw there that were particularly memorable to you?
Speaker 1: Well, I started playing a lot then after that they
Speaker 1: played that. There was a thing called the christ The
Speaker 1: Classic in nineteen seventy four, which Bob Sheer won by
Speaker 1: seven shots. He won by shot sixty five the first day.
Speaker 1: It was the past seventy one. Then they played the
Speaker 1: fourth West is a part four off that what's now
Speaker 1: the women's see well not the women's seed, but the
Speaker 1: front fourteen. He won by he shot sixty five the
Speaker 1: first day, shot one over for the weekend, won by seven.
Speaker 1: So you can imagine what the greens were like. That
Speaker 1: That was back when the tour had no control over
Speaker 1: how the golf course was set up. So the famous
Speaker 1: toperintendent of the Claude Crawford, had never seen a green
Speaker 1: that was too hard or too fast. So Trevino played
Speaker 1: Torino shot sixty six in the third round and shot
Speaker 1: two one or two ninety three, and he said famously,
Speaker 1: take a picture of me going out the gate, because
Speaker 1: you'll never see me coming back into this place. They can.
Speaker 1: It was. It was crazy hard and fast. So they
Speaker 1: and they had torments there for you know that. They
Speaker 1: played there the next three years in that event. Then
Speaker 1: they didn't play anything in seventy seven. Then they had
Speaker 1: the PGA for five years, trained PGA which was a
Speaker 1: great event at wrong Bombers seven he played every year
Speaker 1: and it was and then they that sort of and
Speaker 1: then they played a bunch of Australian opens there. We
Speaker 1: played a lot there over the years.
Speaker 2: So you saw Sevi play Melbourne quite a bit.
Speaker 1: I was I was going to caddy for him. I was,
Speaker 1: I had a university exam on the Wednesday, so I
Speaker 1: couldn't caddy, which was just I hated that, so I
Speaker 1: finished up watching him play. It was a friend of
Speaker 1: Michael Jimmy Carter was a really good He was a
Speaker 1: good amateur player in Melbourne and he was Ed Barner's
Speaker 1: agent in Australia and he'd organized want me to caddy
Speaker 1: for him, So that was that was annoying because I
Speaker 1: should have just skipped the examine. He finished third that week.
Speaker 1: It was a perfect course for him because he had
Speaker 1: space to play, the faireres were wide, and he hit
Speaker 1: those beautiful high soft irons from the bad angles and
Speaker 1: kind of stopped the ball and his short game was genius,
Speaker 1: and so it was a perfect course for him.
Speaker 2: Really, That's what I was thinking, that Roll Melbourne would
Speaker 2: really bring out some of the aspects of Seve's game
Speaker 2: that were unique.
Speaker 1: Well, I was, Yeah, he was the only guy who
Speaker 1: ever won at s Andrews and Augusta and Roll Melbourne.
Speaker 1: And Jack would have won Roal Melbourne if he'd played there,
Speaker 1: and Tiger obviously would have wondered if he played there,
Speaker 1: but Sebbie was the only going who did. And you
Speaker 1: know Augusta was the same that he had space and
Speaker 1: room to play, and he had the stuff around the
Speaker 1: greens was genius, and it was that they were perfect
Speaker 1: courses for him.
Speaker 2: Really, maybe next time Roal Melbourne holds a big stroke
Speaker 2: play tournament and I don't know if it plans to.
Speaker 2: Maybe Zach Johnson should should go play, try to try
Speaker 2: to get the trifector.
Speaker 1: Yeah you should. Yeah, well yeah, it looks who knows
Speaker 1: what the deal the Australian Open, the Golf Australians deal
Speaker 1: with the Australian Open and New South Wales government finished
Speaker 1: this year, government being sort of the major sponsor of
Speaker 1: golf in Australia. So people are assuming it's going to
Speaker 1: go back to Melbourne and it's really going to be
Speaker 1: a thirty six avenue because it's it's a mixed event
Speaker 1: with men and women, so they're only you can only
Speaker 1: play it Royal Melbourne and Peninsula really in Melbourne, so
Speaker 1: it'll be one of the other most likely, but who knows.
Speaker 2: Really, well, let's hope that would be great. That tournament
Speaker 2: has been in the Sydney area for a while, I believe,
Speaker 2: and it would be cool to see it get back
Speaker 2: to the sand Belt. So let's go back into a
Speaker 2: little bit of deeper history. Before Alistair mackenzie arrived in
Speaker 2: Australia and did what he did, you know, roll Melbourne
Speaker 2: was the West Course was a big part of what
Speaker 2: he did when he came and visited. But before that
Speaker 2: visit in nineteen twenty six, could you just give me
Speaker 2: a general picture of what Australian golf architecture was like.
Speaker 1: Well, I assume it wasn't very good. It was all
Speaker 1: the famous clubs on the sand Belt, except for Woodlands,
Speaker 1: were somewhere else. They we're much closer to the city.
Speaker 1: There's not much good land for golf in Melbourne outside
Speaker 1: of the sand Belt. They're all much close to the
Speaker 1: city and I assume pretty rude mentary courses. So Rural
Speaker 1: Melbourne and Metropolitan were one club about two miles from Ore.
Speaker 1: I lived, like you know, right in the middle of
Speaker 1: not in the middle of the city, but not far out.
Speaker 1: Half the half the membership went down to Sandringham, which
Speaker 1: was at the time I guess a long way away.
Speaker 1: Mostly I asuson didn't have cars and it was so
Speaker 1: all the sand belt clubs that moved moved, apart from Kingstainneath,
Speaker 1: moved to bits of land near train stations so people
Speaker 1: could get there. So half of them, half of the
Speaker 1: club went to Roal Melbourne. The other half stayed behind
Speaker 1: because it was too far to go and and then
Speaker 1: a few years later went and started Metropolitan. So they
Speaker 1: went down to Sandringham and did a golf course in
Speaker 1: the teens probably you know, nineteen thirteen or something around then,
Speaker 1: just just before the First World War, and it was
Speaker 1: sort of known as the Sandringham Links and they so
Speaker 1: it was part of the land they currently used, and
Speaker 1: I think it went out further to the north and west,
Speaker 1: which is where the sand Hum public courses now. So
Speaker 1: that was what they had and when mackenzie came down
Speaker 1: he completely reimagined the whole thing and basically built them
Speaker 1: a new golf course. And you know, all the clubs
Speaker 1: that make up what's down the sand belt sort of
Speaker 1: followed that lead and moved. You know, they figured out
Speaker 1: that well this is a great land for golf, so
Speaker 1: they all moved down there and built their courses. And
Speaker 1: Kenson Heath was already there, so McKenzie bunked that and
Speaker 1: readed the fifteenth hole. But Dan Suda was was responsible
Speaker 1: for the routing there. But so Mick Morgam was the
Speaker 1: famous greenkeeper who built all the work, and Alec Russell
Speaker 1: was there Mackenzie's Australian partner, so he did the East Course,
Speaker 1: and so just over a period of you know, a
Speaker 1: decade and a half of the whole thing just came
Speaker 1: out of the ground and there were you know, six
Speaker 1: or eight great courses there.
Speaker 2: Why was it that McKenzie went to Australia.
Speaker 1: Well, one of their course reader designed and they wanted
Speaker 1: Harry Colt to do it. And Peter Thompson always said
Speaker 1: that Rural Melbourne would have been much different if cold
Speaker 1: had come out, because McKenzie built these big, flashy bunkers
Speaker 1: that Thompson was never found of. Really he liked Colt
Speaker 1: sort of smaller, perhaps more understated work. So Colt couldn't
Speaker 1: come and suggested they hi mackenzie. So he came out
Speaker 1: and Real Melbourne paid for it by hiring him out
Speaker 1: to the other clubs. And so he was advising all
Speaker 1: the other clubs, and he went around the country, went
Speaker 1: to Royal Queens and he went to Adelaide. He went
Speaker 1: to Sydney, to Royal Sydney in Australia and advised them
Speaker 1: on their golf courses. And I think at Rural Sydney
Speaker 1: filled in one hundred bunkers. But the way he thought
Speaker 1: about golf was what really formed golf. Yet he'd written
Speaker 1: a book six years earlier, probably nineteen twenty, so Russell
Speaker 1: and Morgan had obviously read the book, and people were
Speaker 1: reading his book, and so they understood he's basically philosophy
Speaker 1: about the golf should be played the way he thought
Speaker 1: it should be played. So they kind of grasped that
Speaker 1: and listened to what he was saying and went and
Speaker 1: built it. But he was only here for three months,
Speaker 1: so you know, it wasn't like he was on the
Speaker 1: ground for a year building real Melbourne. He was. It'd
Speaker 1: come and gone in no time, really, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He arrived in October or something like that and
Speaker 2: left around New Year's and so it was it was
Speaker 2: a very productive whatever it was ten ten weeks or
Speaker 2: so that he spent in Australia. The book you mentioned
Speaker 2: was Golf Architecture, the short book that he published in
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty, and then Spirit of Saint Andrews kind of
Speaker 2: takes Golf Architecture and expands upon it. But that was
Speaker 2: the book that he was distributing at the time. And
Speaker 2: my understanding is that I heard this story from I
Speaker 2: think Neil Krafter that when he came to Australia, he
Speaker 2: hadn't built a lot of the courses that we now
Speaker 2: associate with him, right, because he hadn't really been to
Speaker 2: America that much yet. This was nineteen twenty six. He
Speaker 2: designed Cypress Point, built Cyprus Point later, built Augusta National later.
Speaker 2: So he had done most of his work in the UK.
Speaker 2: But he had written this book, obviously, had a great pedigree,
Speaker 2: had a relationship with the RNA, and so he came
Speaker 2: to Australia and he was this authority on golf architecture.
Speaker 2: He had this book, they were publishing excerpts and newspapers
Speaker 2: and he was shaping the discussion around golf architecture. And
Speaker 2: that strikes me just as so gutsy on Mackenzie's part,
Speaker 2: that he really hadn't built his great courses yet. But
Speaker 2: here he came to an entirely new continent and he
Speaker 2: is the authority on golf architecture.
Speaker 1: Well he was, But I was saying letters that back
Speaker 1: when paper used to writing dignant letters to newspapers about golf,
Speaker 1: I don't even wrote about golfing newspapers. I don't have
Speaker 1: paper rote letters about golf. But members at roll adlaid
Speaker 1: going crazy about this Scottish guy is destroying a golf
Speaker 1: course and and so they didn't really he had a
Speaker 1: plan for the last four holes that was never implemented.
Speaker 1: He had a bunch of stuff that they just didn't
Speaker 1: do it. All that laid. But of course the hole
Speaker 1: he did, and one of the main holes he did
Speaker 1: was the third hold, which is the best home of
Speaker 1: the course. And you know, you know that's that they're
Speaker 1: incredibly proud of the third hole that well that Lakers
Speaker 1: you know, Ackenzie built it. But at the time they were,
Speaker 1: you know, the members were being typical members were going
Speaker 1: nuts because this Scottish guy was digging up the golf course.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Royal Melbourne gave him a free hit and
Speaker 1: let him do what he wanted to do and he
Speaker 1: did an amazing job. But you know, at the time,
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, it wasn't all roses from him, but
Speaker 1: Rob was smart enough to give him his head and
Speaker 1: let him do it. And you know, Tom Doug told
Speaker 1: me once he said there weren'tly decent courses before he
Speaker 1: got there, and there weren't too many built after he
Speaker 1: left there were any good either, And it was kind
Speaker 1: of true. Russell did ya and Lake caring up and
Speaker 1: the depression game and then the war, so that sort
Speaker 1: of stopped everything, and then that generation of architect was gone. Really.
Speaker 1: Tom Simpson lived in the sixties, I think, but you
Speaker 1: know they all died. So Trent Jones and Dick Wilson
Speaker 1: took over American architecture. There was no one in australiaom
Speaker 1: Vern Mick Morecamb's son did a bunch of courses in
Speaker 1: the country of Victoria. Eric Appley did work in Sydney,
Speaker 1: but you know, it was the fifties was a really
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties were really stagnant period for golf in
Speaker 1: Australia in terms of building golf courses, certainly any any
Speaker 1: that were any good.
Speaker 2: Well, the timeline in Australia for the what you might
Speaker 2: call the Golden Age of golf architecture was really tight.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: In Great Britain, you know, or at least in England,
Speaker 2: the timeline was sort of like nineteen hundred to the
Speaker 2: outbreak of World War One. In America the timeline was
Speaker 2: kind of like national golf links to the Depression, so
Speaker 2: about twenty years in Australia. McKenzie arrived in nineteen twenty
Speaker 2: six and basically there weren't that many years left until
Speaker 2: the depression.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like everything got done in four or
Speaker 1: five years. It was just this right colonwealth Yariyara was
Speaker 1: early thirties. Metro Victoria Woodlands was nineteen thirteen. That was
Speaker 1: that early. Actually Woodlands is really underrated, really good. Real
Speaker 1: Melbourne Peninsula was that was much later. Hayndal was later.
Speaker 1: I think that was in the forties or fifties, forties maybe,
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was that mad Russia sort of three
Speaker 1: or four or five years after McKenzie came to where
Speaker 1: everything got done with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, his influence is the immediacy and the power of
Speaker 2: his influence during this trip is really interesting to me.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the one of the most
Speaker 2: interesting historical questions there is about golf architectures, how exactly
Speaker 2: this was done. But to get more specific about Royal Melbourne,
Speaker 2: we've talked about what generally he did right Ural Melbourne
Speaker 2: kind of like paid part of his fee and then
Speaker 2: paid the rest of his fee by hiring him out
Speaker 2: to these other clubs and in so doing like improved
Speaker 2: an awful lot of golf in Australia. But of course
Speaker 2: his main purpose for visiting was to lay out that
Speaker 2: what we now know is the West Course at Royal Melbourne.
Speaker 2: One of the big things he did, and you've you've
Speaker 2: alluded to this a couple of times, was to assemble
Speaker 2: a team or at least to recruit a couple of
Speaker 2: like minded individuals who could carry out his vision. So
Speaker 2: who were the key people involved in actually carrying out
Speaker 2: McKenzie's design at Roll Melbourne and what were their roles?
Speaker 1: Well, Mick Morcambe was the grainkeeper, so he built everything,
Speaker 1: I assume you know. Orsi he was in charge of
Speaker 1: the crew that was building the stuff for the horse
Speaker 1: and scoop that were digging out the bunkers and making
Speaker 1: the contos around the grains and building the grains. And
Speaker 1: Alec Russell, who was the world the grazier, who was
Speaker 1: an Australian Open Champion, great player, Robin member and he
Speaker 1: he was Mackenzie's Australian partner really, so he he you
Speaker 1: know McKenzie seemed to do when he went around the
Speaker 1: Robert Hunter in California and different people who he partnered with.
Speaker 1: So Russell was that guy in Australia. And after so
Speaker 1: after he left Russell did Yara Yarra and Lake carn
Speaker 1: Up and parap Ram in New Zealand, Riversdale here, so
Speaker 1: he was a he was he was a great designer
Speaker 1: in his own.
Speaker 2: Right really and and the East Course at of.
Speaker 1: Course and the East Course, yeah, so he was clearly
Speaker 1: a really talented architect. But then the Depression came and
Speaker 1: nothing happened. So architecture in Australia was a non existent
Speaker 1: profession pretty much for a long time after that, until
Speaker 1: really Peter Thompson took it up. Thompson teamed up with
Speaker 1: Mike Woolbridge in the early seventies probably, and he was that.
Speaker 1: He was the main guy here for a long time.
Speaker 2: Now when it came to actually building Mackenzie's Course at
Speaker 2: Royal Melbourne, how much of it did he actually see
Speaker 2: get completed, given that he was off to New Zealand
Speaker 2: and then the rest of the world pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: Probably not a lot, I think. I think he built
Speaker 1: the fifteenth hole at kicks and Heath while he was here.
Speaker 1: That was built when he was here. That was a
Speaker 1: fifteen at kicks and Heath. Was that the famous part three?
Speaker 1: There was a short part four over the hill that
Speaker 1: Dan Sudar had routed that he discribed as a blot
Speaker 1: on the golf course. So he built the fifth, the
Speaker 1: famous part three when he was there. But I mean,
Speaker 1: Neil Kraft has got, you know, the extensive timeline of
Speaker 1: what went on, But I mean, how much can you
Speaker 1: do in three months? You can't do that much. So
Speaker 1: with most of his courses, he didn't see much of
Speaker 1: them when they were finished. When Augusta he died before
Speaker 1: Augusta was barely open. And he certainly didn't never live
Speaker 1: to see the Masters or and he and he went
Speaker 1: to America. I think he was he going to Cyprus
Speaker 1: Point or Crystal Down. It's probably Cyprus Point. After he
Speaker 1: left Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had I believe had the Cyprus Point connection
Speaker 2: and at the very least the Meadow Club connection in California.
Speaker 2: But yeah, he was he was off to California.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and he went through Auckland and laid out Titterrangi,
Speaker 1: which is a terrific course in Auckland. And he said,
Speaker 1: from the photos they sent me it looked like it
Speaker 1: turned out quite well. So clearly never he never saw it,
Speaker 1: but he rounded it and the routing was genius. This
Speaker 1: was not Melbourne sand this was clay in Auckland.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's the thing that bears repeating, right,
Speaker 2: is that he never went back. Yeah, this was his
Speaker 2: only time, this was visiting there.
Speaker 1: So it kind of sad in a way that he
Speaker 1: never saw the golf course or never understood the adulation
Speaker 1: that the esteem and the adulation that that people hold
Speaker 1: it in and you know, that's such an important part
Speaker 1: of golf in Australia. You never had any idea how
Speaker 1: significant it was going to be. And I think he
Speaker 1: wrote that he just assumed that the profession would get
Speaker 1: better and better and you know, it would continue to
Speaker 1: evolve and people would build better and better courses, and
Speaker 1: as it turned out, that wasn't exactly what happened really well.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to the question of credit, like
Speaker 2: who is the architect of the West Course at Royal Melbourne,
Speaker 2: there are some people who think that that Russell doesn't
Speaker 2: get enough credit, that that Morecambe doesn't get mentioned enough.
Speaker 2: And I feel that, you know, McKenzie was the designer,
Speaker 2: but but he didn't really build it. How do you
Speaker 2: think through that question of credit yourself? Do you think
Speaker 2: it's is it proper to call it a McKenzie course
Speaker 2: or or do we need to call it a McKenzie
Speaker 2: and Russell course.
Speaker 1: I don't know really. I mean, I think the concept
Speaker 1: was all his, and the concept of the way he
Speaker 1: you know, if he'd thought that golf should have been played,
Speaker 1: you know, it was played down narrow fairways, brought it
Speaker 1: by high grass, that's what it would have been. So,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't so because he hated that sort of golf.
Speaker 1: So the concept of the way, the way that golf
Speaker 1: would be there was I assume mostly his, so and
Speaker 1: the routing was his or the rerouting. So if it's
Speaker 1: your concept and your routing, then you get a lot
Speaker 1: of the credit. But as Bilker always says, not just
Speaker 1: one guy who ever builds a golf course, and there
Speaker 1: are a team of people who are critical to what happens,
Speaker 1: And without being there, it's hard to know. But you
Speaker 1: were assumed that that that was obviously the case that
Speaker 1: Roy Melbourne. They must have sat down at night and
Speaker 1: had dinner together and discussed what they were doing. And
Speaker 1: you know, clearly Morecambe, you know, he enjoyed the way
Speaker 1: he wrote glowingly about morcam to tell that as a shaper,
Speaker 1: so you know, he obviously was comfortable with him doing
Speaker 1: it and gave him a free hand. And it was
Speaker 1: you were assumed that, like I said, you assumed they
Speaker 1: sat down every night and spoke about what they were doing,
Speaker 1: went for lunch breaks and had a sandwich. And when
Speaker 1: you think about the seventeenth greene, well, I think it
Speaker 1: should be high here and lower there, and you know,
Speaker 1: do this with the bunker and make the shots and
Speaker 1: the right more difficult. So the concept was his, I think.
Speaker 2: And it seems like one argument in favor of making
Speaker 2: sure that Mackenzie gets a lot of credit for what
Speaker 2: he did in Australia is that it seems like pretty
Speaker 2: much everything he touched turned a gold right, that a
Speaker 2: lot of their great courses have one thing in common,
Speaker 2: and that is that Alistair Mackenzie had some role and
Speaker 2: creating them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was again it was the concept in
Speaker 1: the look. And I really know what happened to Victoria.
Speaker 1: But you look at that golf course in the bunker
Speaker 1: and it's literally right across the street. You can hit
Speaker 1: a wedge from the You hit a wedge from the
Speaker 1: second tea at Royal Melbourne over the road on the
Speaker 1: twelfth Grand in Victoria. It's so close they are, so
Speaker 1: it's and the Bunkers looked saying the greens of similar
Speaker 1: the concepts of saying that property is not quite as big,
Speaker 1: but so it's not quite as wide. But you know,
Speaker 1: the golf is obviously very related. So it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's just that influence of the way he thought gold
Speaker 1: should be that was critical to golf in Australia. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unfair really but and I've never played enough in
Speaker 1: South Africa, but I suspect that if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: Mackenzie would have finished up with golf like South Africa perhaps,
Speaker 1: which is nothing in the world top ten and nothing
Speaker 1: sort of super amazing. And that's what we would have
Speaker 1: had if he hadn't come here, I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Russell might have had more of an influence.
Speaker 1: He probably would have, but but you know, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: well I'm not sure. You can't even be sure about
Speaker 1: this stuff. But if you like Russell now he would
Speaker 1: I assume say that what Mackenzie was a huge influence
Speaker 1: on the way he thought about golf, And I guess
Speaker 1: it went back to the book. He obviously read the
Speaker 1: book you know, golf architecture, and you know, you know
Speaker 1: from that he had gleaned what Mackenzie's ideas were about
Speaker 1: how goal should be played. You can't understate the influence
Speaker 1: of just the concept of golf. He brought what I
Speaker 1: think is that correct or you know, the concept of
Speaker 1: the best golf in the world. He bought it here
Speaker 1: and then he took it to Augusta and did the
Speaker 1: same thing, really and he got that from the Old
Speaker 1: Course because he understood the Old course. That was where
Speaker 1: it all came from. He understood that, you know, shots
Speaker 1: from one part of the whole were completely different from
Speaker 1: shots from the other part of the whole, and that
Speaker 1: was an important part of golf. And if it was
Speaker 1: narrow you couldn't do that. You need it with to
Speaker 1: create that. And the great part about playing roll Melbourne
Speaker 1: is you get much different shots depending on which part
Speaker 1: of the hole you're on.
Speaker 2: McKenzie had a way of activating people. It seems like,
Speaker 2: you know, he did this with Russell in Australia. An
Speaker 2: example I love is his relationship with Perry Maxwell, where
Speaker 2: Maxwell was a talented, yeah thoughtful golf architect. Before his
Speaker 2: relationship with Alistair McKenzie. But after he worked with mackenzie,
Speaker 2: Maxwell just reached an entirely different level and built courses
Speaker 2: that were truly world class. And so there's something about
Speaker 2: Mackenzie's influence as way of interacting with people and recruiting
Speaker 2: people and helping to educate them is probably not the
Speaker 2: right word, but something like that. And then afterwards they're
Speaker 2: they're just completely different, and so it's a it's a
Speaker 2: remarkable thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, you don't know what. You don't
Speaker 1: know really until someone points it out. And I've plied
Speaker 1: Crystal downs. Well, I was gonna say this year last year,
Speaker 1: and that's an amazing course I did up in Michigan.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful course. Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Perry Maxwell built that course, right or yeah, it
Speaker 2: was heavily involved in the construction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, you know, just and I think you
Speaker 1: could argue the same thing happened with Bill Core really,
Speaker 1: I mean Bill Core and Santels, was that it was
Speaker 1: the start of the this era, and of course, you know,
Speaker 1: we're living in it. So how do we really know
Speaker 1: how people are going to judge in one hundred years,
Speaker 1: But I think it'll be judged incredibly kindly I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I played with Richard Sadley yesterday,
Speaker 1: the owner of Bamboogo. We played the little pat three
Speaker 1: course that Bill designed, but of course it was COVID,
Speaker 1: so Bill never was here. I mean, he never came out.
Speaker 1: You know. He was doing it on zoom with Michael
Speaker 1: John Hawker who was building it. So there's a classic
Speaker 1: example of the Bill Corp designed Google Runner Van Bogle
Speaker 1: the fourty and whole part three courts. He never saw it, Bill,
Speaker 1: but well he did. He saw it this year, well
Speaker 1: last year finished, but he was never here when it
Speaker 1: was being built. But you know, I think that Richard
Speaker 1: and I were talking about I think he'll go down
Speaker 1: as being arguably the best and most important act it
Speaker 1: ever when people look back at one hundred years of
Speaker 1: the course, Bill and Benham done cause are incredibly right
Speaker 1: at what they did m hm.
Speaker 2: And and their tree is going to be really strong too,
Speaker 2: right that all the people they worked with influenced and activated,
Speaker 2: you know, in the way that Mackenzie activated people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it is. It's a really good, good comparison, I think.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's get a little more specific about
Speaker 2: about the West Course at Roll Melbourne, itself. I also
Speaker 2: want to talk about the East Course too, because it
Speaker 2: gets it gets ignored to a degree, but the West
Speaker 2: Course is obviously very spectacular when it comes to the
Speaker 2: land at Roll Melbourne. Now I've just I've have never
Speaker 2: been to Australia. I'll admit that I'm talking about all
Speaker 2: these courses of the series that I haven't been to,
Speaker 2: but which is why I want to find out more
Speaker 2: about them. But I've only seen it on TV right
Speaker 2: seeing it in the President's Cup and gotten a general
Speaker 2: feel for It's seen photographs of it, obviously read a
Speaker 2: lot about it. But one thing that you have a
Speaker 2: really hard time getting a sense of when you haven't
Speaker 2: been to a course is what the land is like? Right?
Speaker 2: What is special about the piece of land? And so
Speaker 2: when it when it comes to Royal Melbourne's land, what
Speaker 2: is that special thing that you can only see when
Speaker 2: you're there.
Speaker 1: It's all sand, which obviously helps, and it's the first
Speaker 1: hole is a flat, wide open Part four. Second holes
Speaker 1: quite flat wide open short Part five with a cool
Speaker 1: hollow and the gas out in front of the green
Speaker 1: to make the running shot into the green. Interstinct three
Speaker 1: goes up and over a little kind of rise, and
Speaker 1: then you get to the fourth t and there's a
Speaker 1: massive hill with a blind shot up over a big june.
Speaker 1: So it's the first bit of significant undulation you've come
Speaker 1: to on the golf course. And it's a massive gym
Speaker 1: that you drive with bunkers in the hill and you
Speaker 1: drive over that and it kind of goes down across
Speaker 1: the other side. The whole turns around to the right,
Speaker 1: goes down the hill as a spectacular hole. And then
Speaker 1: that kind of shot that that blind drive up and
Speaker 1: over the hill, which you know is not the ideal shot.
Speaker 1: You've you've got to hit a great drive, but it's
Speaker 1: an unusual shot opens up the amazing second shot. And
Speaker 1: what that broke the back of the routing was that
Speaker 1: got into the fifth and the sixth was the fifth
Speaker 1: is a beautiful path three across the valley. Then you
Speaker 1: go to a high tea and play way down into
Speaker 1: the right on the sixth hoop, which is a famous
Speaker 1: part four that was in the well. I was the
Speaker 1: golf best eighteen holes in the world, So you know
Speaker 1: that's the that's the big significant undulation on the whole
Speaker 1: golf course, and he used it amazingly and I opened
Speaker 1: it up by building this blind t shirt up over
Speaker 1: a big dune and then they abandoned the whole. He
Speaker 1: built the path three the seventh in the forties, I think,
Speaker 1: and Iver Whitney was another Australian Open champion, built the
Speaker 1: What's down the seventh hole, which is cool uphill part three.
Speaker 1: Then there are two holes that aren't on the compass,
Speaker 1: of course they eight and nine sort of. Nine's a
Speaker 1: beautiful hole, you know, it's kind of a plunging drive
Speaker 1: down at the bottom of a valley, then back up
Speaker 1: to the green with a short iron. And then ten's
Speaker 1: the great short part four again you play across a deep,
Speaker 1: deep valley up under it, you know the june on
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the valley, and then pitch onto
Speaker 1: the green. Eleven goes down and up and around again
Speaker 1: great part four. So now there's every hole has got
Speaker 1: significant undulation on it. Twelve twelves a green. It's not
Speaker 1: as you know, it's a blind drive up and over
Speaker 1: hill again but not a big hill. And it's to
Speaker 1: a green that I think Crockford moved from Mackenzie's Green.
Speaker 1: Mackenzie's Green was further right and they moved it probably
Speaker 1: forty yards to the left and created this long second
Speaker 1: shot over a really cool heathland to the green, and
Speaker 1: then you go over the road you play thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 1: which aren't on the composite course, and that pretty much
Speaker 1: flat again. There's a really cool little short path. Three
Speaker 1: that's difficult because it's this roofed across the middle of
Speaker 1: the green, and the greens are so hard there if
Speaker 1: you land on that sort of this ridge in the
Speaker 1: middle of if you land on the downside, because the
Speaker 1: ball is always going to almost always goes over the
Speaker 1: back of the grain. It's just a really innocuous looking
Speaker 1: sort of one hundred and forty yard hold. It's actually
Speaker 1: really difficult. Fourteens are flat, sort of dog the right,
Speaker 1: good puff or fifteen's fifteen's got that cross hazard across
Speaker 1: the fairway at about four hundred and twenty yards off
Speaker 1: the tee. It was on the original course, and he said,
Speaker 1: Apocryphallly said, I'm going to leave this ridge across These
Speaker 1: ridges across the fairway is an example of how bad
Speaker 1: golf architecture used to be. So there's this thing just
Speaker 1: in a dead straight line right across the middle of
Speaker 1: the fairway. It's covered in kind of heathy raft. It
Speaker 1: looks actually pretty cool. But so the story is that
Speaker 1: you know he left it there as an example of,
Speaker 1: as I said, how bad architecture used to be.
Speaker 2: Right, it's sort of the Victorian style or whatever. But
Speaker 2: you think, but you think he probably didn't say that, right,
Speaker 2: you're saying, I think you probably, You think you probably did. Okay,
Speaker 2: probably did. He actually left a feature on the golf
Speaker 2: course that he didn't like as a Oh that kind
Speaker 2: of sounds like him. Actually, it's like that's Mackenzie in
Speaker 2: a nutshell right there.
Speaker 1: And then sixteen is the best long path. There aren't
Speaker 1: many long path threas in Australia. You know, most of
Speaker 1: the great ones, almost all the great ones are between
Speaker 1: one hundred and forty and one hundred and eighty yards
Speaker 1: because they're great because you know, they built these kind
Speaker 1: of famous sand belt bunkers and greens and they made
Speaker 1: them tight so you couldn't really make them turn and
Speaker 1: twenty yards because they're going to be so difficult. It's
Speaker 1: different from the London heathlands and all the great path
Speaker 1: threes on the heathlands playing across amazingly interesting dramatic bits
Speaker 1: of land. But in Australia though were apart from parts
Speaker 1: of rom Melbourne and parts of Victoria's that's lastly flat.
Speaker 1: So they had to build these really, they built these
Speaker 1: great holes on land that gave them nothing, really, and
Speaker 1: then you go so it's it's got a tiny gret.
Speaker 1: It's a really hard, difficult, hardhole, small green, really brilliantly by.
Speaker 1: It'll be a great short Part four the way the
Speaker 1: Boker works it, if they could ever put I keep
Speaker 1: saying you need to chop these trees down behind the
Speaker 1: tee and put a tea back up against the Sandringham
Speaker 1: Public Golf Course boundary fence and play it at two
Speaker 1: hundred and forty or fifty yards. It'll still be a
Speaker 1: Part three, but it'd be a great two shot hold
Speaker 1: for most people. And then then you go back across
Speaker 1: the road and set the seventeens, arguably the best hole
Speaker 1: on the course, so it's a flattish drive. And then
Speaker 1: you go down down the hill and across the valley
Speaker 1: with a second shot back to a green on the
Speaker 1: opposite side of the valley. So there are lots of
Speaker 1: shots that go across these valleys. You know, you put
Speaker 1: the green on the opposite side of the valley and
Speaker 1: you play across them. And then eighteen is another blind
Speaker 1: driver up and over a hill into a big bunker
Speaker 1: that's not really in play but sort of embedded into
Speaker 1: the face of the hill. So you go up and
Speaker 1: over that and then it kind of sweeps down onto
Speaker 1: the left and you with a green on the far
Speaker 1: right corner of the hole. So we use the undulations brilliantly,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's big, bold, dramatic sort of golf.
Speaker 1: And the bunkers. Everyone's seeing the pictures of the bunkers
Speaker 1: always looked great and big greens and so you know.
Speaker 1: So it was a perfect piece of land for golf.
Speaker 1: And there was apart from the tee shirt up to
Speaker 1: fourth there was not what he would describe as hill climbing,
Speaker 1: you know. But he used the gerns and the natural
Speaker 1: undulations incredibly well. And you assume that they didn't move
Speaker 1: much dirt. It wasn't that they dramatically changed the land
Speaker 1: in any way. We're doing the course at seven Mile
Speaker 1: Beach now in Hobart, and when we took the trees off,
Speaker 1: the land was on a lot of holes was completely
Speaker 1: unplayable for golf. It's only that we've got the bulldozer
Speaker 1: and you can actually bulldozed into some sort of form
Speaker 1: where golf is playable. And the trick is to make
Speaker 1: it look like you haven't done that. But you assume
Speaker 1: that the land of rual Molde was completely playable once
Speaker 1: the vegetation had come off, and it was it was
Speaker 1: the property was owned by a guy who trained horses
Speaker 1: on it. It was a big color, so it was
Speaker 1: I don't think it was heavily treued. You there wasn't
Speaker 1: much clearing it went on. It was just covered in
Speaker 1: the you know, the natural heath land of the area.
Speaker 1: So it was you know, that was a matter of
Speaker 1: mowing that down and planting the grass, but it was
Speaker 1: so it was a perfect piece of land for golf.
Speaker 1: And of course it didn't it was it was sand,
Speaker 1: so it didn't need extensive drainage, and they brilliantly used
Speaker 1: the service Draine to get the water off the greens
Speaker 1: and not having it, you know, ripping down into the
Speaker 1: bunkers and wrecking the bunkers and it's all that stuff
Speaker 1: they got right, and you know, so it was it
Speaker 1: was a dream side for golf much much probably probably
Speaker 1: much easier than Augusta, which was clay and much much much.
Speaker 2: Here and very yeah, extremely hilly, yeah yeah, intractable in
Speaker 2: some parts, but the routing kind of makes it makes
Speaker 2: it work.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Another thing, and something that strikes me about your description
Speaker 2: there of how the course unfolds over the land is
Speaker 2: that the pacing is just right with the flatter parts
Speaker 2: of the property as opposed to the more dramatic parts
Speaker 2: of the property. Right, you start on some subtler land
Speaker 2: and then in the middle of the back nine you
Speaker 2: get some subtler land, but there are these of course
Speaker 2: all around that. You have these holes going around big
Speaker 2: land forms, and so there's there's a pacing to it.
Speaker 2: It's not like one nine has all the cool landforms
Speaker 2: and the other nine doesn't.
Speaker 1: Which is sort of what happens right across the straight
Speaker 1: of Victoria. The first sort of seven holes of Victoria
Speaker 1: are relatively flat, well, the first eight really, and nine's
Speaker 1: got some great undulation, and then the back nines all
Speaker 1: the great angelaces on the back nine, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like the front nine of Victorias. It's not
Speaker 1: in any way bad nine. You know, that's really good,
Speaker 1: but the back nines better because because it's got all
Speaker 1: the great undulation on it. Yeah, that's kind of cool.
Speaker 1: You get five or six or ten miles up the
Speaker 1: road at Metropolitan where I played, and Honeydale next door,
Speaker 1: and it's just dead flat and said, there's almost no
Speaker 1: Metro has got the six holes the only hole that
Speaker 1: has got any undulation on it at all. So it's
Speaker 1: not like the Sad belt Lands all great or all undulating,
Speaker 1: or you know, if you played Royal Melbourne and didn't
Speaker 1: play any of the sand Belt golf course, you would
Speaker 1: you wouldn't get an accurate representation of what it's all like.
Speaker 1: People think kens and he's flat and that kind of is.
Speaker 1: But they used what undulation there was there really well.
Speaker 1: But Royal Melburn had the pick of it and Peninsula
Speaker 1: really Peninsula's further down the road, but you know it's
Speaker 1: probably it's a twenty a half hour drive from Wrong Melbourne,
Speaker 1: but there's some great undulation on that property as well.
Speaker 1: Peninsula moved from the course that was close by they
Speaker 1: built their courses in the sixties and you know, but
Speaker 1: that was a great piece of syd belt land as well.
Speaker 1: I mean probably next to roll Melbourne. The next best
Speaker 1: piece of land on the sand belt.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I mean it's it's not all super dramatic,
Speaker 2: but but sandy is is kind of the common thread,
Speaker 2: I suppose. So what do you think is the best
Speaker 2: green on the West course?
Speaker 1: It's a well, the most famous green is the sixth
Speaker 1: hole because that was where all of us used to
Speaker 1: go and congregate to watch pros up nightmare trying to
Speaker 1: put down the hill. So six is a great green,
Speaker 1: but there were so many amazing greens. The two is
Speaker 1: a beautiful green that the sort of a redwan is
Speaker 1: sort of sweeping from high on the right down to
Speaker 1: the left. So there was when it was a I
Speaker 1: mean when it was a I mean, now it's a
Speaker 1: driving a sevenine for pros, but when it was a
Speaker 1: it was a drive and a swooping kind of three
Speaker 1: water along line, it was a beautiful green. Three is
Speaker 1: a that's the only green that goes on the west coast.
Speaker 1: The fifth green on the East course does the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's high in the front and runs away to the back.
Speaker 1: And it's which is really difficult at Royal Melbourn because
Speaker 1: the greens are so hard. If the greens were just
Speaker 1: normal greens, you could stop the ball that any problem
Speaker 1: at all. But the greens are so hard that you've
Speaker 1: got to hit a really good shot to otherwise everything
Speaker 1: just runs to the back. So three is a great green,
Speaker 1: but then you can't really run it up because there's
Speaker 1: a really cool dagon or color hollow at the front.
Speaker 1: So you never see anyone run the ball up one
Speaker 1: of that green because it just bounces all over the place.
Speaker 1: I mean, five is are beautiful green. Six is obviously great.
Speaker 1: There's nothing remotely close to a bad green there. You know.
Speaker 1: Seveneens are beautiful green eighteen So it's a great set
Speaker 1: of greens. But the best green, and the first green
Speaker 1: is a beautiful green for an opening hole on a
Speaker 1: flat piece of ground. It's amazing how many times when
Speaker 1: you played a tournament you'd always you would somehow always,
Speaker 1: no matter what you did, finish up with a four
Speaker 1: foot or for a par. Now, it was just it
Speaker 1: was just because it was really hard to get the
Speaker 1: ball closed and you bought it. You'd be thirty foot
Speaker 1: away and you'd put it down and it would go
Speaker 1: three ft three or four feet past. I've had three
Speaker 1: good shots. I've got this smelly four foot across the
Speaker 1: aill for apart, but that almost always happened. So the
Speaker 1: six is the you know, the famous green, and it's
Speaker 1: brutaled apart in it, and it's it's dangerous to hit
Speaker 1: two and the pins on the left. If you go
Speaker 1: in the front barker, it's a horrendously difficult shot. And
Speaker 1: if you go on the back bunker, you can't really
Speaker 1: aim at the holes that goes back off the front
Speaker 1: of the green, so you got hit the sideways. And
Speaker 1: so it's when Tom Doe flattened a little shell part
Speaker 1: of you know, the back right corner. He touched it
Speaker 1: a little bit to make it a little more playable.
Speaker 1: But you know it's there aren't many places to put
Speaker 1: a pin on that sixth green.
Speaker 2: The greens are fast, I mean there's no doubt, especially
Speaker 2: when the tournament comes to Royal Melbourne, the greens are.
Speaker 1: The greens are humming, they're super fast. And you know
Speaker 1: we've all seen that. You know that list of green
Speaker 1: speeds in America and nine in seventy seven when the
Speaker 1: fastest green was an oak, mind was nine point eight.
Speaker 1: I promise you Cropford had greens running at fourteen and
Speaker 1: nine seventy two. Yeah, I mean they were unbelievably fast.
Speaker 1: It was funny. We like caddied for Lucas, Michelle and
Speaker 1: the in the in the Asian Amateur the Royal Melment
Speaker 1: of a few months ago, and there was a woman
Speaker 1: from the RNA who was starting us in the practice
Speaker 1: rounds and she said, make sure to fix your pitchmarks.
Speaker 1: And Lucas was like that, he said, there are no
Speaker 1: pitchmarks on this golf course. And you almost literally never
Speaker 1: fix a pitchmark. There are no pitchmarks in the greens,
Speaker 1: just there's that's how how they are. So you know
Speaker 1: the pitchmark repairs. There aren't too many real members who
Speaker 1: ran a pitchmark repairer.
Speaker 2: So, uh, the East Course I want to touch on
Speaker 2: at least briefly here it gets it gets overlooked a lot,
Speaker 2: but everyone I've talked to who has played it was
Speaker 2: delighted by it, just thought it was wonderful. Yeah, what
Speaker 2: can you tell me about how the how the East
Speaker 2: course is similar to the West and how it's different.
Speaker 1: Well, it's the holes on the East Course that are
Speaker 1: on the composite course and better than the holes that
Speaker 1: they replace.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and The composite course that you're referring to,
Speaker 2: just in case people don't know, is the tournament course
Speaker 2: at Roll Melbourne. If you've seen a big tournament at
Speaker 2: Roll Melbourne, they play a composite of the East and
Speaker 2: West courses, where most of the holes around the west.
Speaker 2: I think there are a few different versions of of
Speaker 2: this course. There are a million versions of it, maybe,
Speaker 2: but most of the holes are usually on the west
Speaker 2: and along with a few or several from the east.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are twelve on the west and sixth on
Speaker 1: the east. You play the first and second East. Well,
Speaker 1: you play one, two three four. Well they sorry, this
Speaker 1: comps of course is completed. The original compers of course.
Speaker 1: You play one, two three four seventeen eighteen and they've
Speaker 1: replaced the fourth hole with the sixteenth hole, the two
Speaker 1: part three's which I kind of a mistake, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd love. I think the fourth holes it's one of
Speaker 1: the great upfield path threes in the world. It doesn't
Speaker 1: look as drama sixteen, but it's an amazing hole. So
Speaker 1: you play one, two three four on the east on
Speaker 1: the and then you go over the road and you
Speaker 1: play five and six, and then you go over the
Speaker 1: road again and you play seven to fourteen and those
Speaker 1: holes out the back are quite flat, but really good.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really good flat golf for some angelets.
Speaker 1: Never none of the dramatic stuff, much closer to the clubhouse,
Speaker 1: but still fantastic golf. And you could easily make the
Speaker 1: argument that the second best course in Australia is of
Speaker 1: course at Roal Melbourne. Perhaps not after Barmberger and Kate
Speaker 1: Wakam were built, but you know, twenty years ago, before
Speaker 1: the golf got built in Tasmania, you could easily make
Speaker 1: the argument that the best two courses in Australia with
Speaker 1: the West Coast and the East Course down and then
Speaker 1: probably Kankston Heath and the East courses for what they're worth,
Speaker 1: it's in the magazine rankings, it's around five, six or seven.
Speaker 1: It's still a top hundred course in the world. And
Speaker 1: if it was the only course at Royal Melbourn, it
Speaker 1: would it would it would get a lot more credit
Speaker 1: than it does. But because the East, because of the
Speaker 1: West Coast, and that's the course that people want to play.
Speaker 1: But the East Course is brilliant and it makes the
Speaker 1: composite course a better course than the West course. So
Speaker 1: you could make the argument Roal Melbourne should the rankings
Speaker 1: should be they should rank the East Course, the West
Speaker 1: Coast and probably the Composite course and the composite that
Speaker 1: you can make it pretty good argument. It's the best
Speaker 1: golf course in the world, perhaps not Pine Valley, but
Speaker 1: Pine Valley is not certainly not the ideal course. Mackenzie
Speaker 1: would say, well, yeah, it's great, but who can play it?
Speaker 1: And you know, the bulk with a membership a Royal
Speaker 1: Melbourne can handle the golf course, but Pine Valley is
Speaker 1: so difficult they couldn't play that. So it might be
Speaker 1: the best course in the world, but maybe it's the
Speaker 1: most ideal course in the world.
Speaker 2: So you're among those who thinks that the composite courses
Speaker 2: is a better course than the West Course flat out.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's clearly better. But because because Russell's
Speaker 1: holds on the on the East Course that they play
Speaker 1: it better than the holes that you know they're better
Speaker 1: than did they replace eight nine and thirteen to sixteen
Speaker 1: on the West Course, which are all which are really
Speaker 1: good holes, but you know Russell's holes are brilliant holes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're great. So eighteen which eighteen East which comes around
Speaker 1: the other side of the In fact, it shares the
Speaker 1: faire with the first West course up by the green.
Speaker 1: It's a dead flat dog leg left with a clump
Speaker 1: of tee tree on the corner and a hundred yard
Speaker 1: wide fairway that goes all the way to the clubhouse
Speaker 1: and amazing green. It's one of the great holes at
Speaker 1: all Noboyne. It's a brilliant hole, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: dead flat. It's just back on the land around the clubhouse.
Speaker 1: But it's an amazing dogleg left par four where so
Speaker 1: many kind of that crazy finished to the Asian amateur
Speaker 1: when Penn in the front right. No one had burded
Speaker 1: it all day, and then the two kids in the
Speaker 1: playoff both burded in the first time of the playoff,
Speaker 1: which was completely mad. Yeah, but yeah, it's a great hole.
Speaker 2: So the East course obviously a Russell course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: Can you can you see Russell making an effort to
Speaker 2: emulate the West course in this design and can you
Speaker 2: also see some places where he's trying to distinguish the
Speaker 2: East course from the West course, Because I mean, there
Speaker 2: are different schools of thought about how you go about
Speaker 2: designing the second eighteen of a thirty six hole facility.
Speaker 2: You can go the direction of saying we want something
Speaker 2: really different and really distinct and that has its own
Speaker 2: very clear identity, or you can say we want we
Speaker 2: want some kind of uh, you know, similarities. We want
Speaker 2: we want a continuity is the word I'm looking for
Speaker 2: between the courses. What approach do you think Russell took
Speaker 2: here on the East course?
Speaker 1: Continuity? Yeah, you know it was the bonkers looked the
Speaker 1: sign the grains that perhaps there are some different grains
Speaker 1: out there, but that so you know, you don't walk
Speaker 1: on the eleventh grain of the east courses. This was
Speaker 1: clearly not a Mackenzie grain because it you know, the
Speaker 1: concepts with the sign and it was a really cool grain.
Speaker 1: But there's nothing on the West course. But it fits
Speaker 1: in beautifully and it's so you know, the bunkering style
Speaker 1: is the same that you know he because the land
Speaker 1: is not as expansive, but you know, it's not quite
Speaker 1: as wide, and he had to you know, there's not
Speaker 1: as much room between the holes on the far paddock
Speaker 1: on the East course, but you know they're very similar courses.
Speaker 1: So the thirteenth on the East and the thirteenth on
Speaker 1: the west are both sort of short one hundred and
Speaker 1: thirty or forty yard past three that you can swap
Speaker 1: them over and you wouldn't neither would look out of
Speaker 1: place on the other golf course. And it kind of,
Speaker 1: you know in a way. I mean, the composite course
Speaker 1: wasn't built, wasn't arranged until the World Cup in it
Speaker 1: was a Canada Cup then in nineteen fifty nine. That
Speaker 1: was why they put it together. But you play the
Speaker 1: holes around the clubhouse on the East course or on
Speaker 1: the on the clubhouse paddic on the East course, and
Speaker 1: there you would never know you run a different golf course.
Speaker 1: You come off the the old composite course. She came
Speaker 1: off the fourth West and went to the third East,
Speaker 1: and you know, an anyone who played that composite course,
Speaker 1: you'd never been there before, wouldn't have any idea that
Speaker 1: was playing a different golf course. You know that it
Speaker 1: just looked exactly the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing that it flows so well, and you know,
Speaker 2: and then furthermore, a similar point is that, as you
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, there are a couple of holes on the
Speaker 2: West course, and I'm sure on the East course as
Speaker 2: well that aren't original that were changed later greens were
Speaker 2: moved or you know, seventh on the West Course I
Speaker 2: know fits this description, and yet I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've I've looked at all the holes at Roll Melbourne
Speaker 2: through pictures and on TV a number of times. I
Speaker 2: think I know them fairly well. If you had asked
Speaker 2: me to pick out the hole that wasn't an original
Speaker 2: Mackenzie hole, I wouldn't be able to do it.
Speaker 1: All.
Speaker 2: It all fits in pretty well. The course is so
Speaker 2: well presented and so well stewarded that just it's all.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a complete thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know Crockford moved that twelfth green and
Speaker 1: I assume, well, I think I went to a great hole,
Speaker 1: so I think he probably made it a better hole
Speaker 1: than it was. And you don't know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: assume Russell was around at the time, so obviously they
Speaker 1: assume they spoke about it, and you know, they probably
Speaker 1: had a committee meeting and said, I guess he said
Speaker 1: I want to move the twelfth green. That was what's
Speaker 1: a good idea, Okay, we'll do that, and so that happened.
Speaker 1: But you know that green's you don't you know, it's
Speaker 1: indistinguishable from you know, it's not like that green stands
Speaker 1: out as something different or something you know. Gil the
Speaker 1: first time Gil Hans came down to Australia. Funny story,
Speaker 1: he won the Olympic job. He ran me up and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I've got this job to build the Olympic
Speaker 1: course in Rea and and I've sold it to the
Speaker 1: whoever he was selling it to on the basis of
Speaker 1: Kenston Heath. He said, I suppose I should come down
Speaker 1: and see it. Because he'd never been to the sand belt.
Speaker 1: So we were talking about that, the twelfth Green of Victoria,
Speaker 1: which was he'd never never been to Australia. We started
Speaker 1: walking Victorious. We walked, We started on the tenth pole.
Speaker 1: It was late, it was six o'clock at night in
Speaker 1: the summer. We walked ten, walked eleven. So he's never
Speaker 1: been in Australia, never seen a sand belt course. He's
Speaker 1: seen two greens and he got one hundred yards from
Speaker 1: the twelfth green and said that green is not original green?
Speaker 1: Is it like? You can see that. I knew it
Speaker 1: wasn't original, but I thought it was amazing. He said.
Speaker 1: The hardest thing to do is built one green on
Speaker 1: a golf course and have it fit with the other seventeen.
Speaker 1: Which was the genius of the twelfth green in Royal
Speaker 1: Melbourne is no one would know that that's not an
Speaker 1: original green. So you know clearly once Mackenzie had gone,
Speaker 1: you know that there were people who were talented enough
Speaker 1: to change some of his work and have it fit
Speaker 1: in perfectly well, which is what the seventh pole does.
Speaker 1: The part three. It's a great path three and no
Speaker 1: one who went there would ever know that, you know,
Speaker 1: this wasn't Mackenzie never even saw this hole. So the
Speaker 1: changes have been small but really well done there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not many greenkeepers over the years either, right,
Speaker 2: the lineage of greenkeepers at Royal Melbourne. There were some
Speaker 2: really long tenured people who took care of the course
Speaker 2: and maybe that's part of it. Maybe that's part of
Speaker 2: the reason that it's been preserved so well, and that
Speaker 2: it that it still feels so complete. It's not like
Speaker 2: a hodgepodge. There weren't a bunch of different voices at
Speaker 2: different times coming in and making changes. There was again
Speaker 2: that word continuity.
Speaker 1: Morgan was there for until I think the thirties. I
Speaker 1: think Crockford for Crockford started there in the mid thirties,
Speaker 1: I think, and he was there, but I know it
Speaker 1: was around when I was around. You know, he was
Speaker 1: setting up torments and I was. I think he did
Speaker 1: a couple of Australiums and Pj's I played in, but yeah,
Speaker 1: in fact he did. So he was there until the
Speaker 1: mid eighties, and you know they've had a fuse since
Speaker 1: then and Richard Forsyth's Richard's been there fifteen years now,
Speaker 1: twelve fifteen years. But they've all been great at preserving,
Speaker 1: you know, the golf course. I mean, Peter Williams changed
Speaker 1: over the grass to Pencross in the late eighties, and
Speaker 1: Jim Porter came along after that and he said, as
Speaker 1: we were putting in the last Pencross green, we were
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what we were going to replace
Speaker 1: it with. So Richard eventually took her back to a
Speaker 1: grass that's much closer to the original grass. So that
Speaker 1: was probably a mistake changing the grass over on the greens,
Speaker 1: but they don't make too many changes mistakes. And Crockford
Speaker 1: was such a respected kind of greenkeeper that the committee,
Speaker 1: you assume, largely stayed out of his road. You know,
Speaker 1: they understood the course was great, and he looked after
Speaker 1: it well and it was why would you want to
Speaker 1: make interfere or change anything? And that was the way
Speaker 1: it rolled for a long time there and it still
Speaker 1: does really, I mean, don't still the consulting architects and
Speaker 1: you know he's you know, largely it's leave it alone
Speaker 1: because Martin Hartley made some change. He got the job
Speaker 1: there as the architect there and you know, maybe twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, and there were some boundary issues on the
Speaker 1: East course that he that he changes kind of solved
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, it dug up Russell's sixth
Speaker 1: hole on the East Course and changed it and don'k
Speaker 1: redid it and it's still kind of it's not as
Speaker 1: good as the old hole, but they solved the boundary
Speaker 1: problem at seven and seventeen. It's you know, the holes
Speaker 1: with roads on the right, which is one thing Russell did.
Speaker 1: It was funny Russell. Every course he did in Australia,
Speaker 1: the boundaries are all on the right. Whether it's a
Speaker 1: coincidence or whether he was a hooker who you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know or whatever, but all the boundary, all
Speaker 1: the boundary problems there are on Russell's courses and every
Speaker 1: course in this range has got boundary problems because they're
Speaker 1: all in the suburbs. Every boundary problem. Of course, the
Speaker 1: rest of it is it's always on the right. It's
Speaker 1: just kind of weird. Yeah, So Hartory challenged a few
Speaker 1: things around and that Doug Doug came back and kind of,
Speaker 1: for one of a better word, fixed what Hartrey had
Speaker 1: done and it'll you know, it all fits together pretty
Speaker 1: well ready.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious since you've seen so much golf at
Speaker 2: roll Melbourne. I mean you've played a lot of golf
Speaker 2: there out there as well, but but you've seen a
Speaker 2: lot of tournaments there, including fairly recently. Does a particular
Speaker 2: round come to mind as the best you've ever seen
Speaker 2: someone play at Roal Melbourne, somebody who just like unlocked
Speaker 2: the course and really for for eighteen holes, really had
Speaker 2: mastery of it.
Speaker 1: I played the day early shot sixty, So I guess
Speaker 1: that was pretty good.
Speaker 2: He was, he was pretty good at golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean watching Sevy, I've watched Sev play pretty
Speaker 1: much every hollow of the seventy eight page eight and
Speaker 1: that was beautiful to watch because that was McKenzie built
Speaker 1: that course for Mackenzie loved the way Hagen played golf,
Speaker 1: and that was the sort of you know, we wanted
Speaker 1: players to have room and space, didn't like the tight,
Speaker 1: constricted golf. And he then he loved Hagen, loved the
Speaker 1: way he played. So he was designing for Hagen in
Speaker 1: a way. And Sevie was Hagen. You know, he came,
Speaker 1: you know, forty fifty years later, he comes there. Here's
Speaker 1: a guy who needs some space to show how created
Speaker 1: if he isn't. But that was Sevie at his best.
Speaker 1: So watching Sevie player was amazing. And so I would
Speaker 1: say the best golf I've seen that was Sevi and
Speaker 1: Lydia Coe. Lydia co won the Women's Open there by
Speaker 1: I don't know seven shots, and it was just genius stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, she took that place apart. It was amazing
Speaker 1: how well she played. She'd figured out the angles and
Speaker 1: people say angles don't matter, you know, Roal Melbourne. They't
Speaker 1: matter because the shot from one side of the fairway
Speaker 1: can be way easier than the shot on the other side.
Speaker 1: And she just it was genius. She played beautifully and
Speaker 1: just picked it apart. The third on the East Course,
Speaker 1: which is I don't know what number. It was because
Speaker 1: it was there been seventy ridiculous routings of the composite
Speaker 1: course people just lose track of. So so the third
Speaker 1: on thee she first day she had left off the
Speaker 1: tea a little bit was into the wind. I think
Speaker 1: it was unusually for that whole. She had quite a
Speaker 1: long second shot down the hill to her back right
Speaker 1: pen and she cut this hybrid thing into about six
Speaker 1: or eight feet And the next day she hold her
Speaker 1: nine nine on the same hole. It was like it
Speaker 1: was she just and she won by seven shots. It
Speaker 1: was just she made And Stacy Lewis was a famous
Speaker 1: not famous growth but she said, you know, ryal Welbom
Speaker 1: doesn't reward good shots, and she was right, it rewards
Speaker 1: great shots. And you know, whilst the rest of hil
Speaker 1: were complaining about how difficult the course was, Lydia was
Speaker 1: just putting a clinic on. So, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of two not specific rounds, but two tournaments played, that
Speaker 1: was amazing. And I saw Halo and played the last
Speaker 1: six holes in nineteen seventy eight when he shot sixty four,
Speaker 1: and I think the first round and I you know,
Speaker 1: I watched him play from the top of the hill
Speaker 1: on the fourth west, which was the fourteenth top, and
Speaker 1: he just sit you know, he had a string of
Speaker 1: amazing shots from there to the finish, just like flushed it.
Speaker 1: It was. That was the first time I saw someone
Speaker 1: play golf. That was like, my god, that's that's I
Speaker 1: didn't know anyone could play golf that well, you know, ha, halo.
Speaker 1: It was. He just flushed it from the top of
Speaker 1: the hill. It was a two on and he had
Speaker 1: a beautifully a great shot into the whole the whole
Speaker 1: weather you hold the nine on that was the next hole.
Speaker 1: He had a beautiful seven one in there. Then the
Speaker 1: path three up the hill, the fourth he had a
Speaker 1: beautiful shot in there and just think he shot sixty four.
Speaker 1: It was obviously and he won the tournament. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was kind of memorable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the long clubs off the fairway, hail Irwin. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, unbelievable. Yeah, he was too iron and a
Speaker 2: fairway would Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was. You could see him hit that well. I
Speaker 1: was four years earlier. We hit that two under the
Speaker 1: last hole at Wingfoot when he was open. You know,
Speaker 1: it was like you know, when when you see it
Speaker 1: in person, it's like, well, that guy can really hit it.
Speaker 1: And the other great The other great round, of course
Speaker 1: was I watched Tiger play Abraham Answer and the singles
Speaker 1: in the President's Cup and that was that was he
Speaker 1: was clearly the best player there that week. It was
Speaker 1: you know, twenty nineteen. It was just it was, you know,
Speaker 1: that's why you want That's why pro golf was better
Speaker 1: when it signed proper golf courses, because it brings out
Speaker 1: the genius and the best players. And that was you know,
Speaker 1: that was a again, it was it was Mackenzie designing
Speaker 1: for Tiger. It was a perfect golf course for Tiger.
Speaker 1: Was it was to think about where you were going
Speaker 1: to hit it, and you know, and you had to
Speaker 1: hit it there and you had to control the Elvis.
Speaker 1: You know, I cave Elvis Smiley in the New Zealand
Speaker 1: Open the start last year and we're out with Steve
Speaker 1: Williams the last day and Elvis ad Steve, you know
Speaker 1: what was your favorite Torment decade? He said, Augusta, Because
Speaker 1: you know, most courses you've got four or five yards
Speaker 1: to play with Augusta, you've got one yard. And that
Speaker 1: might have been an exaggeration, but not by much. And
Speaker 1: Roal Melbourne. You've got you know, some holes, you've got
Speaker 1: one or two yards to play with and you've got
Speaker 1: you know, and which goes back to the Stacey Lewis
Speaker 1: point was you know it doesn't reward good shots. No,
Speaker 1: you've got a yard to play with it. And if
Speaker 1: you missed that yard or two yards by three yards
Speaker 1: instead of being eight feet away, you can be forty
Speaker 1: feet away and you think you've hit a good shot
Speaker 1: and you're forty feet away, but no, you missed it
Speaker 1: by two yards. Not good enough, you know. Which is why,
Speaker 1: which is why it's such a genius golf course and
Speaker 1: why it still holds up in torments, and why there
Speaker 1: aren't so many crazy rounds because it's so difficult to
Speaker 1: get the ball near the whole, especially when it's windy,
Speaker 1: because the little undulations in the greens and you get
Speaker 1: the wrong you have the wrong shape and get the
Speaker 1: wrong bounds and get on the wrong side of the
Speaker 1: slope and a shot that on most courses in the
Speaker 1: world that would be fifteen or twenty feet away, So
Speaker 1: it's fifty feet away, and now you're going to three
Speaker 1: part or you're going to struggle the two part. So
Speaker 1: that's its genius really. So when you see someone like
Speaker 1: Tiger or sev or Lydia co play that Orhalo and
Speaker 1: play that course, well, it's brilliant to watch and it's memorable.
Speaker 1: I can still see those shots everyone hit and Sevy hit,
Speaker 1: and you can still see them why they were so.
Speaker 1: Lydia played the eighteenth on the West course with Charlie Hult.
Speaker 1: The Pember's in the front right corner dog legg right
Speaker 1: and she hit it down the tree line, over the
Speaker 1: bunker into the right half of the fairway, the right
Speaker 1: corner of the fairway, and Charlie hit a three wood
Speaker 1: into the middle of the fairway. But now she's back
Speaker 1: with a five one into the green off the right
Speaker 1: to left slope to a right pin with the wind
Speaker 1: off the right, and she hit it in a decent shot,
Speaker 1: but it was forty foot left of the hole. But
Speaker 1: Lydia was thirty yards closer down with a better angle
Speaker 1: and she hit it in under the hole with an
Speaker 1: eight I and sort of twelve fifteen feet away. Charlie
Speaker 1: putted it down six foot short because it was a
Speaker 1: really fast part Lydia miss, Charlie missed. Charlie made five,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure she walked off the green thinking but
Speaker 1: he did a bad shot there, and I made five. Well,
Speaker 1: you didn did a bad shop, but you didn't really
Speaker 1: ever have it in the same position DA had it in.
Speaker 1: And Lydia made a really easy four, and Charlie was
Speaker 1: middle of the fellow middle of the green, but walked
Speaker 1: off of the five kind of presumably like I didn't
Speaker 1: do much wrong there. But there aren't many holes in
Speaker 1: the world where she'd have made a bogie off the
Speaker 1: two shots she hit, but she did because neither of
Speaker 1: them were she didn't take on what Lydia took on.
Speaker 2: Was Lydia a teenager at the time.
Speaker 1: It was pre Leadbetter's a swing, which was why it
Speaker 1: was a why do you want to kick this? Why
Speaker 1: do you want to change this game? You're already the
Speaker 1: best man in the world.
Speaker 2: So the most beautiful player to watch. Yeah, when when
Speaker 2: she was a teenager, I mean it was just perfect. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I mean you know, the size of the
Speaker 2: margin that you're talking about, the size of a margin
Speaker 2: between being screwed and being in a good position is
Speaker 2: often what people key in on when they talk about unfairness. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: if the margin is if the margin is too small
Speaker 2: between being okay and being screwed, then then people will
Speaker 2: say that's unfair. You can't possibly expect me to be
Speaker 2: that accurate. No one can be that accurate. But then
Speaker 2: you get players like Lydia Coo as a teenager, or
Speaker 2: Tiger Woods at the twenty nineteen President's Cup, or or
Speaker 2: Hailer when hitting a long iron. I mean that is
Speaker 2: the elite of the elite, and they can play with
Speaker 2: those margins.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is what you know Tom Dunk told me about.
Speaker 1: He said, I don't want to distinguish your train a
Speaker 1: two handicapper and a scratch or a five handicapp and
Speaker 1: a scratch play. I want to distinguish to train a
Speaker 1: scratch plan the best player in the club and the
Speaker 1: best part on the world. And that's what mackenzie did.
Speaker 1: Start bringing Roal Melbolle. So Andrews does that, and he understood.
Speaker 1: And Andrews, you know, to hit a great shot into
Speaker 1: the road hole. You don't see many guys stepping it
Speaker 1: on the road hole, but you know if someone I
Speaker 1: remember David Graham had a great shot into the seventeenth
Speaker 1: oldt tonanres in a Dunhill Cup. He drew this five
Speaker 1: one around the back of the bunk it or about
Speaker 1: I don't know what three, I can't remember. Close, really close.
Speaker 1: It was an amazing shot. So you had to hit
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't you have nothing to play with
Speaker 1: and you had to hit the perfect shot. It wasn't like,
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't a severe as fifteen AUGUSTA when
Speaker 1: you come back in the water if you're two yards down,
Speaker 1: but you can be fifty feet away off what you
Speaker 1: think is a good shot, Well, you know it was.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a bad job anyways, but it was wasn't perfect.
Speaker 1: But then you watch these people play it who play
Speaker 1: it perfectly, and you go, well, you can play it.
Speaker 1: It's playable, And one hundred years later it's still you know,
Speaker 1: it's genius still comes out because Tiger Woodsmen played the
Speaker 1: thing that Mackenzie built and still show off his jenius
Speaker 1: and still show off why he was the best player
Speaker 1: that week at the President's Cup when he wasn't if
Speaker 1: you played a regular tour event. Tiger was past his
Speaker 1: best by twenty nineteen. I mean one of the masters,
Speaker 1: but he was. He was ten years past his best.
Speaker 1: Golf probably, but you put him on Roll Melbourne. He's
Speaker 1: the best player here. And if Mackenzie had been there
Speaker 1: and seen that, he was a see I told you,
Speaker 1: you know that's what That's what the course I did
Speaker 1: was really good because I found out who the best
Speaker 1: player was undred years it was.
Speaker 2: Who the best mind was. Yeah, his Tiger's mind was
Speaker 2: that it's at its peak because his body may not
Speaker 2: have been at its peak, but you know, yeah, that
Speaker 2: is that is a true testament of a great course there.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, Mike, I've taken enough of your time.
Speaker 2: You need to go play some golf at Barn Google.
Speaker 2: That's far more important than talking to me. But thank
Speaker 2: you so much for spending some time with me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was, it was great.
Speaker 1: I was always fun to talk about Roll Melbourne and
Speaker 1: it's always when I played there on news day and
Speaker 1: it's like for me, it's as much fun playing there
Speaker 1: now as it was fifty years ago. How many courses
Speaker 1: like that?
Speaker 2: All right, thank you, Mike.
Speaker 1: Thanks mate.
Speaker 2: This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was produced by
Speaker 2: Matt ruschis Thank you, Matt. One thing that I would
Speaker 2: recommend that you do if you enjoyed this episode, If
Speaker 2: you like these deep dives into golf architecture. I think
Speaker 2: you would love what we're doing in Club TFE. Club
Speaker 2: TFE is our membership. It costs one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: dollars a year and there are a number of things
Speaker 2: that come with it, aside from golf architecture content, so
Speaker 2: you get an ongoing discount in the pro shop, you
Speaker 2: get early access to Friday golf events. We have all
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff going on, but one of the big
Speaker 2: things is weekly content on golf architecture. There's a design
Speaker 2: notebook series where we talk about what's going on right
Speaker 2: now in the world of golf architecture. And there are
Speaker 2: our weekly course profiles. We've got ones coming up on
Speaker 2: the Beverly Country Club in Chicago, Go as well as
Speaker 2: one that I will start writing as soon as I
Speaker 2: get off the mic here about bandoned trails. And these
Speaker 2: are in depth analyzes of golf courses with beautiful imagery
Speaker 2: photos that we've gotten at these courses, as well as
Speaker 2: illustrations by Cameron Hurtis and Matt Ruschis. We're really proud
Speaker 2: of what we're doing here and what we're providing our numbers,
Speaker 2: So if you're interested in that if you like this episode,
Speaker 2: you like golf architecture, this is a great experience for you.
Speaker 2: So that's Club TFE. Go to the Frida egg dot
Speaker 2: com slash membership to see what it's all about. Thank
Speaker 2: you for listening. We'll be back again soon