1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,916
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, Welcome to a new year

2
00:00:24,996 --> 00:00:27,996
Speaker 1: and a new series of this podcast. So many of

3
00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:29,836
Speaker 1: you have gotten in touch to say that what you

4
00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:32,516
Speaker 1: love most about The Happiness Lab is the practical advice

5
00:00:32,556 --> 00:00:34,596
Speaker 1: that you get from the show. So over the next

6
00:00:34,596 --> 00:00:37,156
Speaker 1: few months, we're going to make getting that practical advice

7
00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:40,436
Speaker 1: even easier. Will be bringing you an entire season of

8
00:00:40,436 --> 00:00:42,956
Speaker 1: how to guides, ones that we think will make your

9
00:00:42,996 --> 00:00:46,276
Speaker 1: life much happier in twenty twenty five. I've assembled a

10
00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:49,436
Speaker 1: cast of amazing guests. They're the premier experts in their

11
00:00:49,476 --> 00:00:52,076
Speaker 1: fields on topics ranging from how to live a richer

12
00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:54,636
Speaker 1: life each and every day to how to find valuable

13
00:00:54,676 --> 00:00:58,916
Speaker 1: relationship lessons from watching rom com movies. In each how

14
00:00:58,956 --> 00:01:02,116
Speaker 1: To episode, we'll be breaking down the key takeaways. Each

15
00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:04,236
Speaker 1: show will feature a half a dozen or so tips

16
00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:08,436
Speaker 1: for tackling challenges like stress, navigating negative emotions, finding your purpose,

17
00:01:08,596 --> 00:01:11,196
Speaker 1: and dating better. And today we're kicking off this how

18
00:01:11,196 --> 00:01:13,716
Speaker 1: To season with a topic that I struggle with a lot,

19
00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:17,436
Speaker 1: how to be imperfect. You see, I spend a lot

20
00:01:17,436 --> 00:01:20,076
Speaker 1: of time wanting to do the opposite of this. I

21
00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:22,756
Speaker 1: want everything I do to be perfect. I want to

22
00:01:22,756 --> 00:01:25,516
Speaker 1: throw the best dinner parties and the most effective lab meetings,

23
00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:27,916
Speaker 1: and to be the best friend and wife and podcaster

24
00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:30,756
Speaker 1: and professor. But there's a new book that has really

25
00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:33,796
Speaker 1: helped me gain a better perspective on this. It's called

26
00:01:33,996 --> 00:01:37,876
Speaker 1: Meditations for Mortals Four weeks to embrace your limitations and

27
00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:41,316
Speaker 1: make time for what counts. Its author Oliver Berkman, has

28
00:01:41,356 --> 00:01:43,756
Speaker 1: been on the Happiness Lab before. He helped me find

29
00:01:43,796 --> 00:01:46,676
Speaker 1: ways to fight the stress that comes from constant busyness,

30
00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:50,476
Speaker 1: and Meditations for Mortals tackles a related topic, how can

31
00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:53,236
Speaker 1: we start spending our time on the stuff that really counts?

32
00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:56,676
Speaker 1: And Oliver's book isn't talking about meditations like to clear

33
00:01:56,716 --> 00:02:00,116
Speaker 1: your mind and take deep breath meditations. No, his meditations

34
00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:02,836
Speaker 1: are short philosophical tips for embracing the fact that the

35
00:02:02,836 --> 00:02:05,716
Speaker 1: world is messy, that we're messy, and that striving for

36
00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:10,036
Speaker 1: perfection isn't an achievable or a healthy goal. But you're

37
00:02:10,036 --> 00:02:11,796
Speaker 1: based in New York these days, still right?

38
00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:14,196
Speaker 2: No, I'm in North Yorkshire, so I'm just up the

39
00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:14,716
Speaker 2: East Coast.

40
00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:16,916
Speaker 1: I sat down with Oliver to tease out his top

41
00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:19,596
Speaker 1: five lessons for accepting our imperfection are the.

42
00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:22,796
Speaker 2: Two places where I've spent my life, Brooklyn and Yorkshire,

43
00:02:22,836 --> 00:02:23,836
Speaker 2: so it's not surprising me.

44
00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:26,316
Speaker 1: But I began by asking him about the New Year,

45
00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:28,516
Speaker 1: a time when so many of us hope to turn

46
00:02:28,516 --> 00:02:31,236
Speaker 1: over a new leave shut our bad habits, and become

47
00:02:31,276 --> 00:02:33,316
Speaker 1: the perfect people we've always wanted to be.

48
00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:36,436
Speaker 2: I've often thought that the New Year is in some

49
00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:39,276
Speaker 2: ways it's almost the worst possible time to be trying

50
00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:43,236
Speaker 2: to implement major changes, especially I don't do this much

51
00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:45,436
Speaker 2: these days, but especially if you're spending New Year's Eve

52
00:02:45,836 --> 00:02:49,196
Speaker 2: at a sort of very high octane party, then January

53
00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:51,876
Speaker 2: the first is going to not be the day for wonderful,

54
00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:54,876
Speaker 2: virtuous new plans, whether it's a calendrical thing or not,

55
00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:58,436
Speaker 2: anything that piles on the pressure to kind of make

56
00:02:58,596 --> 00:03:02,996
Speaker 2: a complete fresh start from now forever more. That's a

57
00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:05,716
Speaker 2: problem because I think what's going to work instead is

58
00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:09,476
Speaker 2: the willingness to try things out, to experiment, to do

59
00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:11,396
Speaker 2: things for a little while, even just to do them

60
00:03:11,396 --> 00:03:14,596
Speaker 2: once without forcing them to be part of a very

61
00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:20,276
Speaker 2: very heavy and intimidating system of total transformation something like that.

62
00:03:20,476 --> 00:03:22,276
Speaker 1: And so in some ways your book is a guide

63
00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:25,436
Speaker 1: towards sort of fighting against that total system of transformation.

64
00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:29,636
Speaker 1: You talked about this idea of imperfectionism. What is imperfectionism

65
00:03:29,716 --> 00:03:30,916
Speaker 1: and why should we embrace it?

66
00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:34,276
Speaker 2: Imperfectionism is just my kind of umbrella term, I think

67
00:03:34,316 --> 00:03:39,236
Speaker 2: for the whole approach to life that starts from the

68
00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,596
Speaker 2: assumption that we're never going to be able to do

69
00:03:41,636 --> 00:03:44,356
Speaker 2: things as perfectly as we can imagine them, but starts

70
00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:45,916
Speaker 2: from the assumption that there's always going to be too

71
00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:48,836
Speaker 2: much to do, that we're never going to feel completely

72
00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:52,276
Speaker 2: ready for new life stages or for interesting and exciting

73
00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:56,996
Speaker 2: new projects, that we're probably never going to fix all

74
00:03:56,996 --> 00:04:00,956
Speaker 2: our massive personal problems that we have with procrastination or

75
00:04:00,996 --> 00:04:04,196
Speaker 2: distraction or whatever else it is, and then says, well, okay,

76
00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:07,836
Speaker 2: now what and how can we develop the willingness to

77
00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:10,436
Speaker 2: act and to really do the stuff that matters and

78
00:04:10,476 --> 00:04:12,996
Speaker 2: to hopefully most of the time enjoy doing a lot

79
00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:15,556
Speaker 2: of the stuff that matters. Now that that kind of

80
00:04:15,596 --> 00:04:18,516
Speaker 2: tormenting mirage is off the agenda.

81
00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:20,596
Speaker 1: So in your book you talk about some of the

82
00:04:20,636 --> 00:04:23,236
Speaker 1: tenets of imperfectionism, and I have to admit that in

83
00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:25,636
Speaker 1: some of these I felt really called out because they're

84
00:04:25,636 --> 00:04:28,436
Speaker 1: ones that I absolutely struggle with. The first of these

85
00:04:28,556 --> 00:04:30,476
Speaker 1: is this idea that there's never going to be this

86
00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:33,676
Speaker 1: fantasy day when everything is out of the way. What

87
00:04:33,716 --> 00:04:35,276
Speaker 1: do you mean here and why is important to get

88
00:04:35,356 --> 00:04:36,076
Speaker 1: rid of this notion?

89
00:04:36,436 --> 00:04:38,796
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let me say that I'm confronting

90
00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:42,116
Speaker 2: myself as much as anybody else, that I'm calling out myself.

91
00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:43,916
Speaker 2: So you can come with this from many different angles,

92
00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:46,516
Speaker 2: but certainly, just when it comes to the volume of

93
00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:50,396
Speaker 2: stuff that we tend in the modern world to feel

94
00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:53,796
Speaker 2: like we need to do, there is always a bigger

95
00:04:53,796 --> 00:04:55,716
Speaker 2: amount that feels like it needs to be done in

96
00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:57,716
Speaker 2: any given time period, you know, by the end of

97
00:04:57,756 --> 00:04:59,636
Speaker 2: the day, by the end of the week. Then we

98
00:04:59,756 --> 00:05:03,196
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to do There are clear reasons of

99
00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,756
Speaker 2: technology and economic culture in which we live, and all

100
00:05:06,796 --> 00:05:09,596
Speaker 2: sorts of things that just make that inevitable. So if

101
00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,476
Speaker 2: you approach life with this very sort of understandable but

102
00:05:12,716 --> 00:05:14,756
Speaker 2: misleading notion that what you're going to do is first

103
00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:17,476
Speaker 2: of all, get all the little bits of stuff out

104
00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:19,196
Speaker 2: of the way, deal with all the things that are

105
00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:22,756
Speaker 2: kind of cluttering your mental world, and then you will

106
00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:25,676
Speaker 2: find these great expanses of time for the things that

107
00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:28,756
Speaker 2: really matter, the relationships or the projects that really count.

108
00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:30,756
Speaker 2: You're going to end up spending your whole life clearing

109
00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:35,036
Speaker 2: the decks, as it were, and never getting there. I

110
00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:38,716
Speaker 2: think it's really important instead to see that the skill

111
00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:41,316
Speaker 2: we're trying to develop here, I would say, is the

112
00:05:41,356 --> 00:05:44,836
Speaker 2: willingness to act on the important things right now, even

113
00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:47,156
Speaker 2: though the decks are not clear. It's kind of an

114
00:05:47,396 --> 00:05:50,436
Speaker 2: anxiety tolerance skill. I think it's knowing that there are

115
00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:53,876
Speaker 2: emails that will need your attention, but deciding nonetheless, to

116
00:05:53,916 --> 00:05:57,036
Speaker 2: spend the first hour of the day, say on some

117
00:05:57,116 --> 00:06:00,396
Speaker 2: things other than answering them. Of course, this will vary

118
00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:04,916
Speaker 2: massively by people's personal situations, and some people I know

119
00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:07,196
Speaker 2: are in jobs where certain kinds of emails have to

120
00:06:07,236 --> 00:06:09,916
Speaker 2: be responded to immediately or they might get it. I

121
00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:13,756
Speaker 2: think the underlying point here is there isn't this moment

122
00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:16,836
Speaker 2: coming later when you're going to have all the time

123
00:06:16,916 --> 00:06:19,156
Speaker 2: for the things that matter, and so on some level

124
00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:23,596
Speaker 2: you have to claim that time in the present instead.

125
00:06:24,156 --> 00:06:26,436
Speaker 1: I can tell you how important this insight has been

126
00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:29,356
Speaker 1: for me. I feel like my calendar constantly has these

127
00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:31,636
Speaker 1: moments of like, all right, I'm going to get to

128
00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:34,476
Speaker 1: a new month. Right, I'm going to get to January first,

129
00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:36,756
Speaker 1: and then I'll try to get everything done before January first,

130
00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:39,476
Speaker 1: and then I can begin, and January first comes around

131
00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:41,196
Speaker 1: and I have it, and then it's February first, or

132
00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:43,636
Speaker 1: it's my birthday, or it's whatever it is. There's always

133
00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:45,876
Speaker 1: this kind of trying to clear the decks before this

134
00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:48,676
Speaker 1: date with the ideas, and then you know, and then

135
00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:51,036
Speaker 1: dot dot dot dot, and it kind of never gets there.

136
00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:53,436
Speaker 1: I think part of this also is something else that

137
00:06:53,436 --> 00:06:55,876
Speaker 1: you've cautioned against, which is this idea of the spirit

138
00:06:55,916 --> 00:06:59,196
Speaker 1: of optimization that we might need to kind of reject

139
00:06:59,196 --> 00:07:01,356
Speaker 1: to this What is that spirit? And why is it

140
00:07:01,396 --> 00:07:02,076
Speaker 1: so important to.

141
00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:04,916
Speaker 2: Read yeah, or maybe even not say reject, but just

142
00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:09,316
Speaker 2: kind of sort of see through the alluring promise. I

143
00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:11,596
Speaker 2: think that's something that I'm often arguing for. It's just

144
00:07:11,636 --> 00:07:14,636
Speaker 2: a sort of gentle understanding that these things are not

145
00:07:14,756 --> 00:07:17,036
Speaker 2: going where we hope that they're going, and then it's

146
00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:19,356
Speaker 2: a lot easier to let go of them. In the

147
00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:24,116
Speaker 2: case of optimization and efficiency in general, right, there's certainly

148
00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:27,556
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with making a few time savings around the edges,

149
00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:31,076
Speaker 2: thinking about your daily routines, how you organize your house

150
00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:33,596
Speaker 2: or your desk in such a way as to eliminate

151
00:07:33,716 --> 00:07:35,756
Speaker 2: wasted time. You know, if it's taking you an hour

152
00:07:35,836 --> 00:07:38,156
Speaker 2: to find your clothes in the morning, there's probably something

153
00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:40,956
Speaker 2: wrong with how you have your house organized. But it's

154
00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:43,516
Speaker 2: a very low level at which that stops making the difference,

155
00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:46,116
Speaker 2: because I think the illusion, the thing that sort of

156
00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:48,476
Speaker 2: bewitches us is this notion that we might be able

157
00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:51,676
Speaker 2: to optimize ourselves to the point where we didn't have

158
00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:55,356
Speaker 2: to make difficult decisions about what to do with our time,

159
00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:57,876
Speaker 2: where we could say yes to everything that was thrown

160
00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:00,516
Speaker 2: onto our plates. We would never have to disappoint anybody,

161
00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:03,676
Speaker 2: we would never have to put any of our ambitions

162
00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:06,476
Speaker 2: on hold, we would never have to neglect something that

163
00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:08,916
Speaker 2: felt like it was crying out for our attention. I

164
00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:11,876
Speaker 2: want to say that it's just baked in to our

165
00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:15,276
Speaker 2: situation as finite humans, but that's not how it works.

166
00:08:15,756 --> 00:08:17,916
Speaker 2: That you're going to have to disappoint some people, that

167
00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:20,436
Speaker 2: you're going to have to put some ambitions on the

168
00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:22,236
Speaker 2: back burner, that you're going to have to not do

169
00:08:22,356 --> 00:08:24,556
Speaker 2: all the things that feel like they need doing, just

170
00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:27,396
Speaker 2: in order to do any things and to make a

171
00:08:27,396 --> 00:08:29,996
Speaker 2: difference to anybody's lives and to pursue any of your

172
00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:34,876
Speaker 2: most cherished ambitions. So optimization can be a real diversion

173
00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:38,036
Speaker 2: of energy and attention. It also has this very specific

174
00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,436
Speaker 2: hidden danger that if you are telling yourself that you're

175
00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:44,796
Speaker 2: going to make time for everything, somehow you stop asking

176
00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:47,716
Speaker 2: serious questions about things that arrive right, somebody asks you,

177
00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:50,396
Speaker 2: could you do this task? Could you meet this demand?

178
00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:52,956
Speaker 2: And say it's one that you are in a position

179
00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:55,036
Speaker 2: where you're allowed to say yes or no to it. Well,

180
00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:56,316
Speaker 2: if you think you're going to get everything done, you're

181
00:08:56,356 --> 00:08:57,876
Speaker 2: just going to say, yeah, sure, throw it in the hopper.

182
00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:00,516
Speaker 2: There's no problem here, I'm going to get everything done.

183
00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:03,036
Speaker 2: And so it's a very alluring thing. But what happens

184
00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,836
Speaker 2: is that your life gradually starts filling with more and

185
00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:08,156
Speaker 2: more stuff that you didn't really want to do, other

186
00:09:08,156 --> 00:09:11,476
Speaker 2: people's agendas, things you could have said no to in fact,

187
00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,316
Speaker 2: but felt like you were on the path to being

188
00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:16,276
Speaker 2: so powerful that you didn't need to, you know, so

189
00:09:16,436 --> 00:09:18,836
Speaker 2: all all capable, you didn't need to.

190
00:09:19,156 --> 00:09:21,396
Speaker 1: So I get the effectiveness of this approach of kind

191
00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:24,716
Speaker 1: of you know, loosening up on our optimization and recognizing

192
00:09:24,756 --> 00:09:27,076
Speaker 1: that we're never going to get everything under control. I

193
00:09:27,116 --> 00:09:29,116
Speaker 1: get how it might be functional, but I also find

194
00:09:29,156 --> 00:09:31,676
Speaker 1: it quite depressing. But one of the things that's interesting

195
00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:33,396
Speaker 1: in your book is you argue like this should not

196
00:09:33,436 --> 00:09:36,356
Speaker 1: be depressing at all, This should be incredibly liberating. Explain

197
00:09:36,396 --> 00:09:37,036
Speaker 1: it how that works.

198
00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:39,916
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, I come across this objection. I understand

199
00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:42,036
Speaker 2: it right. There is definitely a kind of a defeat

200
00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:44,716
Speaker 2: that is involved here. I'm trying to argue that it's

201
00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:48,956
Speaker 2: a productive and energizing and empowering kind of defeat, because

202
00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,756
Speaker 2: it's the defeat of trying and struggling to do something

203
00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:53,956
Speaker 2: that was never on the cards to begin with. I

204
00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:57,196
Speaker 2: think that what you do, and I certainly don't claim

205
00:09:57,196 --> 00:09:59,596
Speaker 2: to be perfect at this, i'd sort of be under

206
00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:01,396
Speaker 2: reminding my own point if I did. I think, but

207
00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:03,316
Speaker 2: what you do when you get a little bit better

208
00:10:03,756 --> 00:10:08,116
Speaker 2: at this is you spend more of your precious time

209
00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:12,116
Speaker 2: doing things, things that make you feel more alive. I'm

210
00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:17,076
Speaker 2: partly talking about hobbies and recreational activities and meaningful work,

211
00:10:17,116 --> 00:10:19,556
Speaker 2: but even things that feel like duties in your life,

212
00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:21,876
Speaker 2: if you're doing them in this context of having chosen

213
00:10:21,956 --> 00:10:25,236
Speaker 2: them as against other things, they can become imbued with

214
00:10:25,636 --> 00:10:29,876
Speaker 2: greater meaning. There's a British born zen master who I

215
00:10:29,996 --> 00:10:31,836
Speaker 2: quote in the book, and I've always quote because the

216
00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:34,716
Speaker 2: quote means so much to me, whom Ju Kennet was

217
00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:36,876
Speaker 2: her name as she died a while ago now, who

218
00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:39,036
Speaker 2: used to say that her approach to teaching was not

219
00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:41,676
Speaker 2: to lighten the burden of the student, but to make

220
00:10:41,716 --> 00:10:43,916
Speaker 2: it so heavy that he or she would put it down.

221
00:10:44,756 --> 00:10:47,276
Speaker 2: And I still get goosebumps when I think about this quote,

222
00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:49,316
Speaker 2: because it really is the essence of what we're talking

223
00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:51,956
Speaker 2: about her. I think it's like you are struggling under

224
00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:55,516
Speaker 2: this impossible burden of trying to do everything, trying to

225
00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:57,836
Speaker 2: get your arms around it all, trying to make yourself

226
00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:01,156
Speaker 2: be perfect before you take the high stakes actions, and

227
00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:03,436
Speaker 2: it's just a lovely feeling to be able to set

228
00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:06,036
Speaker 2: that down on the ground, and it's a feeling that

229
00:11:06,116 --> 00:11:07,996
Speaker 2: leaves you more energized to go and do things, or

230
00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:10,476
Speaker 2: to keep climbing the mountain, or whatever the metaphor is

231
00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:12,276
Speaker 2: that we're dealing with there.

232
00:11:13,276 --> 00:11:15,836
Speaker 1: So if Oliver's convinced you that rejecting the pursuit of

233
00:11:15,836 --> 00:11:18,676
Speaker 1: perfection is a liberating step, you should stick with us.

234
00:11:18,796 --> 00:11:20,956
Speaker 1: For tip number one, and his guide to how to

235
00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:32,356
Speaker 1: be imperfect It's coming up right after the break. Oliver

236
00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:35,196
Speaker 1: Brickman's simple philosophy is that trying to be perfect and

237
00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:38,516
Speaker 1: do everything is an impossible burden, a burden that weighs

238
00:11:38,596 --> 00:11:41,316
Speaker 1: us down and prevents us from dedicating ourselves to more

239
00:11:41,316 --> 00:11:43,996
Speaker 1: meaningful activities. And the first step on the road to

240
00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:48,236
Speaker 1: embracing imperfectionism is something that a perfectionist like me struggles with.

241
00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:53,316
Speaker 1: It's actually doing things, you know, actually bake that cake

242
00:11:53,596 --> 00:11:56,996
Speaker 1: or write that book, or travel to that destination. And

243
00:11:57,076 --> 00:11:59,716
Speaker 1: this tip kind of feels like being called out. I

244
00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:01,956
Speaker 1: never get around to baking the cake because I spend

245
00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,636
Speaker 1: way too much time trying to find the perfect cake recipe.

246
00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:06,996
Speaker 1: I don't take many vacations, but I spend a heck

247
00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:09,436
Speaker 1: of a lot of time researching the perfect travels spot.

248
00:12:09,716 --> 00:12:12,396
Speaker 1: In my attempt to set up everything perfectly, I really

249
00:12:12,436 --> 00:12:15,436
Speaker 1: get around to actually doing stuff. It's like I'm looking

250
00:12:15,476 --> 00:12:17,836
Speaker 1: for a method or a system to get perfect results

251
00:12:17,876 --> 00:12:19,636
Speaker 1: every time, no matter what I'm doing.

252
00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:21,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think this is for many of

253
00:12:22,036 --> 00:12:24,476
Speaker 2: us very alluring, right, The idea that there's some set

254
00:12:24,516 --> 00:12:27,596
Speaker 2: of rules or some way of doing things that if

255
00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,756
Speaker 2: you could only discover it or perfect it would make

256
00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:33,876
Speaker 2: everything work and actually, on a deeper, kind of a

257
00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:36,916
Speaker 2: subtler level, almost would live life on your behalf. Right,

258
00:12:36,956 --> 00:12:39,276
Speaker 2: It's like the deal is, I will follow all these

259
00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:41,356
Speaker 2: rules every day, and what I get back from it

260
00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:44,036
Speaker 2: is that I don't quite have to show up for

261
00:12:44,156 --> 00:12:47,196
Speaker 2: life and grapple with life in all its kind of messy,

262
00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:50,756
Speaker 2: muddy unpleasantness and difficulty and uncertainty and all the rest

263
00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:53,636
Speaker 2: of it. So I've got nothing against systems and rules

264
00:12:53,676 --> 00:12:56,676
Speaker 2: per se, And in fact, the new book has plenty

265
00:12:56,716 --> 00:13:00,316
Speaker 2: of sort of outlines of ways to build one. But

266
00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:02,996
Speaker 2: I think it's essential that we sort of put them

267
00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:05,436
Speaker 2: in their place. They are tools that we use from

268
00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:07,636
Speaker 2: our position here in the midst of life. They are

269
00:13:07,636 --> 00:13:11,076
Speaker 2: not things that can get us out of that situation.

270
00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:13,276
Speaker 2: So how is this relevant to the idea of just

271
00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:16,516
Speaker 2: doing things? I think that one way in which we

272
00:13:16,636 --> 00:13:19,036
Speaker 2: use systems in a counterproductive way is we want to

273
00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:20,796
Speaker 2: do something. We want to do more of something in

274
00:13:20,836 --> 00:13:25,356
Speaker 2: our lives, physical exercise, meditation, pursuing a creative hobby that

275
00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,436
Speaker 2: we've let neglect, or nurturing certain relationships that we've sort

276
00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:31,836
Speaker 2: of allowed to wither on something, and then we immediately

277
00:13:31,876 --> 00:13:35,156
Speaker 2: go to what's the system that's going to change me

278
00:13:35,196 --> 00:13:37,076
Speaker 2: into the kind of person that does this better? Right,

279
00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:39,676
Speaker 2: what are the goals, what's the morning routine I'm going

280
00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:41,236
Speaker 2: to do every day for the rest of my life.

281
00:13:41,436 --> 00:13:44,356
Speaker 2: What's the equipment I need? What are the ten books

282
00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:46,236
Speaker 2: I can read so that I really know how to

283
00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:49,236
Speaker 2: do this thing? Yeah, I'm totally still prone to doing

284
00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:51,676
Speaker 2: this sometimes. Right that. My first thought always like, find

285
00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:53,436
Speaker 2: a book, find a book, find a set of information

286
00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:56,756
Speaker 2: that I can build a system from. But firstly, that

287
00:13:56,916 --> 00:13:58,796
Speaker 2: is not the same as doing the thing. Secondly, it

288
00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:01,236
Speaker 2: can actually be counterproductive, I think, because it becomes a

289
00:14:01,276 --> 00:14:05,036
Speaker 2: much more intimidating or unwieldy thing. The prospect of having

290
00:14:05,036 --> 00:14:06,516
Speaker 2: to do something every day for the rest of your

291
00:14:06,516 --> 00:14:08,036
Speaker 2: life can really put you in the mind of not

292
00:14:08,036 --> 00:14:09,956
Speaker 2: wanting to do it at all, or you feel terrible

293
00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:12,036
Speaker 2: if you fall off the wagon one day, or whatever.

294
00:14:12,076 --> 00:14:16,076
Speaker 2: It might be. The really powerful skill to develop, I

295
00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:18,796
Speaker 2: think is the willingness to say, Okay, that might have

296
00:14:18,836 --> 00:14:21,276
Speaker 2: some role later. But what if I just meditative a

297
00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:24,036
Speaker 2: ten minutes. What if I just went for a brisk walk,

298
00:14:24,076 --> 00:14:26,716
Speaker 2: What if I just picked up the phone and talked

299
00:14:26,796 --> 00:14:29,956
Speaker 2: to the long lost friend. With no confidence that I

300
00:14:29,996 --> 00:14:32,716
Speaker 2: would do it well, no certainty that I'll do it

301
00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:35,356
Speaker 2: every day for the rest of my life, no guarantee

302
00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:37,276
Speaker 2: that it's going to turn me into the kind of

303
00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:38,876
Speaker 2: person who does that kind of thing all the time.

304
00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:41,716
Speaker 2: But it's still worth more than all those things combined

305
00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:44,556
Speaker 2: because it actually happened in reality.

306
00:14:44,556 --> 00:14:47,596
Speaker 1: Okay, can I share my experience that like fits with

307
00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:49,076
Speaker 1: this to a t. When I was reading your book,

308
00:14:49,076 --> 00:14:50,756
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, he's literally in my

309
00:14:50,796 --> 00:14:54,236
Speaker 1: head right now. So sometime last year I was watching

310
00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:56,636
Speaker 1: these documentaries about DJs and I was like, you know what,

311
00:14:56,676 --> 00:14:59,356
Speaker 1: I'm going to learn to do some turntablism stuff, like

312
00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:02,236
Speaker 1: I love records and so on. I immediately went to look.

313
00:15:02,356 --> 00:15:04,556
Speaker 1: I started researching books. I didn't even just buy books.

314
00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:06,716
Speaker 1: I spent like weeks researching like what's the best way

315
00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:09,036
Speaker 1: to learn about turntablism and stuff? And I bought these

316
00:15:09,156 --> 00:15:12,116
Speaker 1: books and I went to the what's the best possible way?

317
00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:15,236
Speaker 1: So I downloaded this syllabus from Berkeley College of Music

318
00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:16,996
Speaker 1: of the best ways to do this, and I spent

319
00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:22,116
Speaker 1: hours and hours researching how to how to learn dough

320
00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:25,596
Speaker 1: turntablism and then bought these resources and then completely intimidated

321
00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:27,676
Speaker 1: myself because I was reading from the best DJs and

322
00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:29,516
Speaker 1: people who are in music school, and I'm like, you know,

323
00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:31,636
Speaker 1: a professor and podcaster and have like four minutes a

324
00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:33,756
Speaker 1: week to do, and then I never picked up a

325
00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:36,596
Speaker 1: record or did anything, right, I just reading your book

326
00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:38,956
Speaker 1: is like I could have just like downloaded some app

327
00:15:39,036 --> 00:15:41,956
Speaker 1: and started playing some music and just kind of pretending

328
00:15:41,996 --> 00:15:43,996
Speaker 1: and messing around. And it wouldn't have been the perfect system,

329
00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:45,956
Speaker 1: but at least I would have done something and it

330
00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:47,996
Speaker 1: would have been fun rather than kind of make me

331
00:15:48,076 --> 00:15:50,516
Speaker 1: feel ashamed and like I'm never going to do it

332
00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:51,796
Speaker 1: in a huge waste of times.

333
00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:54,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, that resonates a lot. I think it's so interesting.

334
00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:57,156
Speaker 2: It's like we can learn a lot from young kids

335
00:15:57,156 --> 00:15:59,956
Speaker 2: in this regard. I think the DJ example is interesting

336
00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:02,156
Speaker 2: to me because our son often professes a desire to

337
00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:05,036
Speaker 2: be a DJ when he's older. I don't know, but

338
00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:08,036
Speaker 2: like and he just like dive into like assembling playlists

339
00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:10,996
Speaker 2: and setting up disco lights and whatever. Like you just

340
00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:12,756
Speaker 2: do it, and like you do it for twenty five

341
00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:14,636
Speaker 2: minutes one day after school and then you've done it,

342
00:16:14,676 --> 00:16:16,316
Speaker 2: you know, and then maybe you do it again and again,

343
00:16:16,316 --> 00:16:19,396
Speaker 2: and maybe you don't. Something about becoming an adult seems

344
00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:21,236
Speaker 2: to be associated with this idea that it's got to

345
00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:23,516
Speaker 2: be done in a very controlled sort of a scheme.

346
00:16:23,716 --> 00:16:25,676
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's idea number one. You just need to

347
00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:27,596
Speaker 1: do it, and the advice is really just like, whatever

348
00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:29,796
Speaker 1: you can do in ten minutes today, just do that

349
00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:32,796
Speaker 1: and it's probably good enough. The second tip that I

350
00:16:32,796 --> 00:16:34,876
Speaker 1: also struggle with a lot is you've argued that we

351
00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:38,476
Speaker 1: need to fight back against this idea of productivity debt.

352
00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:41,676
Speaker 1: Something I I'll pray to all the time. What is

353
00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:42,676
Speaker 1: productivity debt?

354
00:16:42,876 --> 00:16:45,916
Speaker 2: Productivity debt is my label for this sense that so

355
00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:47,396
Speaker 2: many of us have that we sort of wake up

356
00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:49,836
Speaker 2: in the morning in a kind of a debt right

357
00:16:49,876 --> 00:16:52,876
Speaker 2: that unless we produce a certain amount or do a

358
00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,396
Speaker 2: certain amount of things, we haven't quite justified our existence

359
00:16:56,396 --> 00:16:58,556
Speaker 2: as humans, we haven't quite earned the right to be

360
00:16:58,676 --> 00:17:01,836
Speaker 2: here on the planet. There's an important caveat which, obviously,

361
00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:03,556
Speaker 2: if you do any kind of work for money, there

362
00:17:03,636 --> 00:17:05,836
Speaker 2: is a sense in which you're in productivity debt. Right,

363
00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:08,116
Speaker 2: if you get paid at salary, you have to do

364
00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:10,556
Speaker 2: the things that you're job entails in order to get

365
00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:13,636
Speaker 2: the salary. I'm talking about this much deeper existential notion

366
00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:17,436
Speaker 2: that we don't get to feel okay as human beings

367
00:17:17,516 --> 00:17:19,476
Speaker 2: unless we have paid off this debt during the day.

368
00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:22,596
Speaker 2: And it's very depressing because obviously, to continue the analogy

369
00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:24,556
Speaker 2: with a sort of a debt in a bank account

370
00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:26,676
Speaker 2: or something, the very best thing that can happen is

371
00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:28,436
Speaker 2: that you get back to zero by the end of

372
00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:30,476
Speaker 2: the day, right Like, that is literally the very best

373
00:17:30,476 --> 00:17:33,076
Speaker 2: thing that can happen if you work in this kind

374
00:17:33,076 --> 00:17:36,076
Speaker 2: of deficit based mindset, And obviously most of the time

375
00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:37,476
Speaker 2: you're not going to feel that you even get there,

376
00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:38,676
Speaker 2: and then you're going to wake up the next morning

377
00:17:38,716 --> 00:17:40,436
Speaker 2: and it's all back again. You've got to like push

378
00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:42,956
Speaker 2: the rock up the hill for another day. So I think,

379
00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:45,996
Speaker 2: you know, just seeing that can be very powerful for

380
00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:48,076
Speaker 2: a lot of people because on some level we know

381
00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:50,996
Speaker 2: that that isn't how it is right. We don't really

382
00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:54,596
Speaker 2: believe that we sort of don't get to qualify as

383
00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:56,956
Speaker 2: adequate human beings if we haven't done a certain amount.

384
00:17:57,036 --> 00:17:58,956
Speaker 2: And then beyond that, I think you know, there are

385
00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:01,516
Speaker 2: all sorts of tactics like the very simple idea of

386
00:18:01,596 --> 00:18:03,396
Speaker 2: keeping a done list, keeping a list of things that

387
00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:05,836
Speaker 2: you have completed through the day as you complete them,

388
00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:07,916
Speaker 2: that can help us sort of, you know, to continue

389
00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:10,436
Speaker 2: that metaphor, what if you started each day at zero

390
00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:12,876
Speaker 2: and everything that you did was paying in and you

391
00:18:12,996 --> 00:18:16,116
Speaker 2: ended up like building your credit, and then the next

392
00:18:16,196 --> 00:18:18,316
Speaker 2: day you built your credit some more? Right? Is it

393
00:18:18,356 --> 00:18:20,796
Speaker 2: possible to think of the things that we do as

394
00:18:21,036 --> 00:18:24,436
Speaker 2: expressions of the fact that we already are adequate instead

395
00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:26,676
Speaker 2: of ways that we're struggling to try to achieve a

396
00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:27,796
Speaker 2: sense of valticalcy.

397
00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:30,316
Speaker 1: You use this term in the book that I resonate with,

398
00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:32,396
Speaker 1: you know a psychologists sort of have a word for

399
00:18:32,436 --> 00:18:34,596
Speaker 1: people who fall prey to this idea, this idea of

400
00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:38,436
Speaker 1: insecure overachievers. I think I know what this term means.

401
00:18:38,436 --> 00:18:40,356
Speaker 1: What I'm going to have your articulate what it is

402
00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:42,356
Speaker 1: and how you've seen it in yourself maybe.

403
00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:44,516
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I'm always struck whenever I

404
00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:46,596
Speaker 2: use this term, like in a public event or something,

405
00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:49,676
Speaker 2: the ripples of recognition are there. I don't know about

406
00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:51,796
Speaker 2: sort of very formal definition, but for me, what it

407
00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:53,676
Speaker 2: means is, you know, we're talking about people who do

408
00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:56,076
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, who are very driven, as a

409
00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:58,196
Speaker 2: word that might get used right, who probably have a

410
00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:00,876
Speaker 2: lot of accomplishments under their belt and maybe are to

411
00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:03,756
Speaker 2: some degree celebrated by their friends or admired by people

412
00:19:03,796 --> 00:19:07,556
Speaker 2: for doing it, but ultimately are doing it to kind

413
00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:11,636
Speaker 2: of shore up this in a sense of not being

414
00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:16,916
Speaker 2: adequate or okay unless they do enough. And this certainly

415
00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:19,396
Speaker 2: can take very toxic forms, but I think it's very

416
00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:21,916
Speaker 2: normal really for a lot of us who sort of

417
00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:24,196
Speaker 2: do a lot of things and get things done and

418
00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:27,036
Speaker 2: feel proud of that, to realize with a start that actually,

419
00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:29,276
Speaker 2: on some level we wouldn't do them, or we might

420
00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:31,236
Speaker 2: do different things. We certainly might do them in a

421
00:19:31,636 --> 00:19:35,476
Speaker 2: less grim faced way if we weren't starting from the

422
00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:38,356
Speaker 2: idea that there was some deficit that needed to be

423
00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:40,756
Speaker 2: filled or paid off or whatever before we could enjoy

424
00:19:40,756 --> 00:19:41,836
Speaker 2: ourselves in life. Yeah.

425
00:19:41,876 --> 00:19:43,636
Speaker 1: The reason I really loved this point is that for me,

426
00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:46,756
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much that I need to stop doing things.

427
00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:49,356
Speaker 1: It was kind of the way I do things right

428
00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:51,676
Speaker 1: Like even now, just before this, before I sat down

429
00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:53,836
Speaker 1: to record the podcast, I kind of was done my

430
00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:55,676
Speaker 1: other meetings ten minutes early, and it was like, well,

431
00:19:55,676 --> 00:19:57,276
Speaker 1: I have ten minutes. What can I do? I'm going

432
00:19:57,316 --> 00:19:59,156
Speaker 1: to water the plants, like, oh, the plants need watering,

433
00:19:59,276 --> 00:20:00,916
Speaker 1: Like oh, I'm to the dishwasher. And it was like

434
00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:03,396
Speaker 1: and I had this just moment of noticing what was

435
00:20:03,396 --> 00:20:05,836
Speaker 1: happening where it was like, my whole goal is to

436
00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:08,636
Speaker 1: tick as many things off as possible, and that's just

437
00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:11,436
Speaker 1: kind of a a miserable way to live.

438
00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:12,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

439
00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:14,956
Speaker 1: I could have spent that ten meetings ten minutes just

440
00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:18,196
Speaker 1: being or noticing the world or relaxing.

441
00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:20,516
Speaker 2: Or doing something productive and constructive, but you would have

442
00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:24,036
Speaker 2: chosen it with some eye to enjoyment as well. Right,

443
00:20:24,156 --> 00:20:26,116
Speaker 2: Otherwise what happens is you end up living. We talk

444
00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:27,916
Speaker 2: a lot about living in the future in terms of

445
00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:29,796
Speaker 2: living for years from now, but it's very easy to

446
00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,436
Speaker 2: spend your whole life living about two hours in the future,

447
00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:34,676
Speaker 2: right that sense that like just when I've done that,

448
00:20:34,676 --> 00:20:35,956
Speaker 2: it's just when I've done that, it's the end of

449
00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:37,476
Speaker 2: the day. And when I get to bed and go

450
00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:39,996
Speaker 2: to sleep, there's always another thing, and it just it

451
00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:42,556
Speaker 2: almost makes whatever's happening in your life into a sort

452
00:20:42,556 --> 00:20:46,196
Speaker 2: of an unwelcome obstacle to getting to the end of

453
00:20:46,196 --> 00:20:48,876
Speaker 2: the day or whatever. And sometimes things are like that,

454
00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:51,396
Speaker 2: but other times they're not unless you make them, unless

455
00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:52,236
Speaker 2: you turn them into them.

456
00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:56,076
Speaker 1: So another tip that I think is especially relevant for

457
00:20:56,156 --> 00:21:00,556
Speaker 1: we insecure overachievers has to do with the information overload

458
00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:03,676
Speaker 1: that we all face. I imagine there were insecure overachievers

459
00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:06,956
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties, but they didn't face the

460
00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,916
Speaker 1: kind of fire hose of information and things to care

461
00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:12,276
Speaker 1: about that so many of us face these days. And

462
00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:15,476
Speaker 1: another tip that you've suggested is just to recognize that

463
00:21:15,756 --> 00:21:19,196
Speaker 1: we can't care about or find out about everything. You know,

464
00:21:19,196 --> 00:21:21,356
Speaker 1: why is this so essential to kind of give up

465
00:21:21,396 --> 00:21:24,476
Speaker 1: one trying to bring in as much information as possible?

466
00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:27,196
Speaker 2: On some level, it's the same reason that sort of

467
00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:29,756
Speaker 2: underpins everything we've been talking about here and that I've

468
00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:32,956
Speaker 2: written about, which is that if the supply is effectively infinite,

469
00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:36,676
Speaker 2: then attempts to get through the supply faster or to

470
00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:39,876
Speaker 2: get your arms around the supply completely are doomed to fail,

471
00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:41,956
Speaker 2: and they're going to lead to all sorts of sort

472
00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:45,836
Speaker 2: of unintended consequences. So yeah, just in that simple issue

473
00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:48,516
Speaker 2: of too many things to read too many articles in

474
00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:51,396
Speaker 2: your read it later app that feel like they're probably

475
00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:53,036
Speaker 2: essential in some way, or could give you a really

476
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,116
Speaker 2: good idea for your work, or could make you healthier

477
00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:57,676
Speaker 2: or calm or something. There's nothing wrong with collecting those,

478
00:21:57,716 --> 00:21:59,436
Speaker 2: but I think it's really important to treat them, as

479
00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:01,596
Speaker 2: I say in the book, as a like a river

480
00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:03,556
Speaker 2: rather than a bucket. In other words, not as some

481
00:22:03,596 --> 00:22:05,636
Speaker 2: sort of place where they all collect and your job

482
00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:07,276
Speaker 2: is to deal with them all until the bucket is

483
00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:09,796
Speaker 2: empty again, but just as a of a stream that

484
00:22:09,796 --> 00:22:12,676
Speaker 2: flows past you, and that you pick things out and

485
00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:15,116
Speaker 2: focus on them without feeling guilty about all the ones

486
00:22:15,116 --> 00:22:18,316
Speaker 2: that you let go by. And the point you alluded

487
00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:21,236
Speaker 2: to at the end of your question. More difficult, I

488
00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:24,076
Speaker 2: think for many people who feel committed to making the

489
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:26,436
Speaker 2: world a better place is that this does ultimately have

490
00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:29,556
Speaker 2: to apply to good causes and the suffering of the

491
00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:31,716
Speaker 2: world as well. Right, if there is more of this

492
00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:37,076
Speaker 2: stuff than you can hope to address, even collectively, even

493
00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:39,996
Speaker 2: in groups, because they're still finite too, they are groups

494
00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:43,556
Speaker 2: of finite people. Then to make any difference to a

495
00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,116
Speaker 2: given cause or something like that, you're going to have

496
00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:49,076
Speaker 2: to be willing to neglect some others, not because you've

497
00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:51,716
Speaker 2: convinced yourself they don't matter, but just because that's how

498
00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:54,956
Speaker 2: it is for us. And you know that might mean

499
00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:59,756
Speaker 2: taking some instance of a cause, an important issue that

500
00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:02,316
Speaker 2: you feel drawn to giving your attention to, and saying,

501
00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:04,116
Speaker 2: I'm going to pick my battles and I'm not going

502
00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:06,356
Speaker 2: to choose that one. And it's not because it doesn't matter.

503
00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:08,636
Speaker 2: It's because I want to have some effect in what I.

504
00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:12,676
Speaker 1: Do, strategies for kind of staying sane and self compassionate.

505
00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:15,476
Speaker 1: When you do that, when you say important thing, don't

506
00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:16,076
Speaker 1: got time for that?

507
00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:19,156
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think above all it comes from

508
00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:23,676
Speaker 2: seeing and reminding yourself again and again that the reason

509
00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:28,596
Speaker 2: you are neglecting some things that maybe other reasons, but

510
00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:30,876
Speaker 2: one core reason that you will be neglecting some things

511
00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:35,116
Speaker 2: is because being human means neglecting some things. And there

512
00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:37,436
Speaker 2: are sort of ways of handling this in a more

513
00:23:37,436 --> 00:23:39,836
Speaker 2: practical sense. I've written in the past about this idea

514
00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,116
Speaker 2: of keeping two lists, one that is kind of endless

515
00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:43,676
Speaker 2: and has as many items on it as you like,

516
00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:46,116
Speaker 2: and then one which has a very fixed number of slots,

517
00:23:46,156 --> 00:23:48,556
Speaker 2: and you feed them through so that you've only ever

518
00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:50,956
Speaker 2: got sort of say, five or ten items on your plate,

519
00:23:50,996 --> 00:23:53,556
Speaker 2: but you're very well aware that there are five hundred

520
00:23:53,596 --> 00:23:56,036
Speaker 2: items calling out for your attention and just sort of

521
00:23:56,076 --> 00:23:59,916
Speaker 2: acclimatizing to that situation of that being more to do

522
00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:02,996
Speaker 2: than you ever could do. Another metaphor that works for

523
00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:05,996
Speaker 2: me is to understand that these kinds of lists are menus,

524
00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:09,236
Speaker 2: and in a strange way, the list of all the

525
00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:11,236
Speaker 2: suffering going on in the world, the list of all

526
00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:14,316
Speaker 2: the critical causes needing our attention or our activism or

527
00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:16,836
Speaker 2: our donations or anything else, are also a menu, because

528
00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:18,356
Speaker 2: a menu is any list that you're going to have

529
00:24:18,396 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 2: to pick from instead of get through. And there is

530
00:24:21,796 --> 00:24:24,356
Speaker 2: a possibility when you see it in that way of

531
00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:27,036
Speaker 2: approaching it with a lighter spirit, You know that sense

532
00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:29,796
Speaker 2: that you're doing something that counts, and you actually wouldn't

533
00:24:29,796 --> 00:24:33,116
Speaker 2: be doing more or better if you run around in

534
00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:35,116
Speaker 2: a frenzy trying to sort of make sure you touched

535
00:24:35,156 --> 00:24:36,516
Speaker 2: every single one of those items.

536
00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:38,876
Speaker 1: So that's sort of trying to make sure you don't

537
00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,836
Speaker 1: do everything. But another tip is about how you deal

538
00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:44,516
Speaker 1: with the things that you have chosen to do. And

539
00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:46,796
Speaker 1: you've argued that we need to be much more comfortable

540
00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:50,116
Speaker 1: choosing not to whole ass stuff. As you put it,

541
00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:52,076
Speaker 1: I think I know what this means. But what is

542
00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:54,836
Speaker 1: whole assing things? And why should we maybe be gentler

543
00:24:54,836 --> 00:24:55,836
Speaker 1: with ourselves about that.

544
00:24:56,316 --> 00:25:00,076
Speaker 2: This is a quotation I stumbled across in the comments

545
00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:02,956
Speaker 2: of a Washington Post article from a woman who says

546
00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,036
Speaker 2: that her parents always used to get on her case

547
00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:09,036
Speaker 2: about half assing things, but actually, now, as an adult

548
00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,716
Speaker 2: woman with an accomplished career, she realizes there are very

549
00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:14,436
Speaker 2: very few things in life that really require her to

550
00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 2: invest her whole ass. Quite often half fasting them is fine.

551
00:25:18,436 --> 00:25:20,676
Speaker 2: This applies in lots of different contexts, right, because it's

552
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:24,076
Speaker 2: all about the amount of attention, the amount of energy

553
00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:26,476
Speaker 2: that you're willing to give something, and being okay with

554
00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:29,476
Speaker 2: giving something less of your energy, less of your attention.

555
00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:32,396
Speaker 2: It's also to do with dropping that assumption that everything

556
00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:35,876
Speaker 2: we encounter in our lives that is important has to

557
00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:39,716
Speaker 2: feel difficult, has to feel very effortful. It's about allowing

558
00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,356
Speaker 2: the possibility that maybe there are some things that you

559
00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:45,636
Speaker 2: could sort of glide through and coast through. And even

560
00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:47,956
Speaker 2: this is a subtle point it's tricky to express. I

561
00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:50,236
Speaker 2: think but like even genuinely very difficult things can be

562
00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:52,516
Speaker 2: approached in the spirit of their being easy. I know

563
00:25:52,556 --> 00:25:54,636
Speaker 2: what I mean by this. I don't know that I've

564
00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:59,436
Speaker 2: conveyed it perfectly, But you can bring ease to a

565
00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:03,196
Speaker 2: process that is almost guaranteed to be at the very

566
00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:06,396
Speaker 2: least frustrating, Like you know, filing your taxes is the

567
00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:09,116
Speaker 2: classic ciche. And I think you can bring ease, ultimately

568
00:26:09,236 --> 00:26:11,916
Speaker 2: me to situations that are much worse and you know,

569
00:26:12,196 --> 00:26:17,116
Speaker 2: fraught and involve grief or sadness or conflict. You can

570
00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:19,716
Speaker 2: still not assume that it's got to be a question

571
00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:23,756
Speaker 2: of furrowing your brow, bracing your muscles and going in

572
00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:26,676
Speaker 2: for a fight. And you can absolutely assume that when

573
00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:28,876
Speaker 2: it comes to sort of creative work, for example, all

574
00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:31,636
Speaker 2: these context where we think like, okay, this is worth doing,

575
00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:33,356
Speaker 2: I'm going to come up against a lot of resistance,

576
00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 2: and I'm going to have to punch that resistance in

577
00:26:35,036 --> 00:26:36,876
Speaker 2: the face. It's like if you walk up to someone

578
00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:38,516
Speaker 2: in the bar ready to punch them in the face. Right,

579
00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:41,956
Speaker 2: they may have had no plan to be in conflict

580
00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:43,636
Speaker 2: with you, but they soon will be. If that's the

581
00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:45,956
Speaker 2: attitude that you take to what you're doing.

582
00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:48,916
Speaker 1: I mean, you're mentioning trying not to always whole ass

583
00:26:48,956 --> 00:26:51,276
Speaker 1: things in the context of things that are really hard.

584
00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:54,396
Speaker 1: But my own experience sometimes comes up for me, even

585
00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:56,796
Speaker 1: in things that should be easy, right, you know, friends

586
00:26:56,836 --> 00:26:58,356
Speaker 1: are like, oh, you know, should we get dinner? Like,

587
00:26:58,356 --> 00:27:00,116
Speaker 1: oh yeah, come over the house for dinner, and then

588
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,876
Speaker 1: I'll be like, Okay, I'm going to make a really

589
00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:05,116
Speaker 1: great entree and there has to be deserted. I got

590
00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:06,636
Speaker 1: to like go to the wine shop to figure out

591
00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:08,836
Speaker 1: the perfect why. And now this thing that was supposed

592
00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:10,996
Speaker 1: to be kind of fun for me has turned into

593
00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:15,556
Speaker 1: this like stressful choice overloaded situation that in my brain

594
00:27:15,636 --> 00:27:17,756
Speaker 1: I have four different ideas about how to do perfectly,

595
00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:19,876
Speaker 1: and whichever one I picked, it's not going to be perfect.

596
00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:20,036
Speaker 2: Right.

597
00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:22,316
Speaker 1: Specifically, in the dinner party contacts, you've I argued that

598
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:25,596
Speaker 1: we need to embrace this idea of scruffy hospitality, which

599
00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:28,356
Speaker 1: is one that I love. What do you mean by

600
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:28,716
Speaker 1: this here?

601
00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, this phrase comes from an Anglican pastor in the

602
00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:35,836
Speaker 2: Tennessee called Jack King, and what he's talking about is

603
00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:39,116
Speaker 2: based on his own personal experience, which is precisely this

604
00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:41,836
Speaker 2: sense that when you make a big deal out of

605
00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,396
Speaker 2: it in the way that you describe being tempted to

606
00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,276
Speaker 2: do apart from anything else, in a very subtle way,

607
00:27:46,276 --> 00:27:48,116
Speaker 2: it slightly puts you off doing it again in the future,

608
00:27:48,196 --> 00:27:50,436
Speaker 2: right because it's like some part of your mind knows

609
00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:52,276
Speaker 2: it's going to be a whole thing, and even in

610
00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:54,076
Speaker 2: the doing of it, just that once you know, there's

611
00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:56,756
Speaker 2: a certain sense of being distracted by making sure that

612
00:27:56,796 --> 00:27:59,956
Speaker 2: the beautiful facade you are putting on for your guest

613
00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,156
Speaker 2: is intact and it's all going well. Jack King makes

614
00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:05,436
Speaker 2: this point. He talks in going through this himself and

615
00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:07,076
Speaker 2: deciding with his wife that they were going to just

616
00:28:07,116 --> 00:28:09,956
Speaker 2: start inviting people around in the mesha that the house

617
00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:12,476
Speaker 2: was in, to eat whatever they could cook with what

618
00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:16,396
Speaker 2: was in the cupboards, and finding firstly obviously that it's

619
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:18,676
Speaker 2: a lot easier to have people around for dinner more

620
00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:21,276
Speaker 2: often if you allow yourself to do that. But also

621
00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:25,516
Speaker 2: there's a sort of depth of connection that comes from that,

622
00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:27,596
Speaker 2: and there is something about not just in the case

623
00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:29,596
Speaker 2: of dinner parties, but in life in general. There's something

624
00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:33,916
Speaker 2: about dropping the facade, owning up to the faults and

625
00:28:33,996 --> 00:28:38,396
Speaker 2: the imperfections that is very powerful in terms of forging

626
00:28:38,556 --> 00:28:40,756
Speaker 2: bonds with people. And I write in the book about how,

627
00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,396
Speaker 2: you know, even before I encounter Jackking's work, if we

628
00:28:43,396 --> 00:28:44,756
Speaker 2: were going to have friends around for dinner and I

629
00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:47,996
Speaker 2: saw like crumbs underneath the fridge or kind of mail

630
00:28:48,276 --> 00:28:50,036
Speaker 2: stacked on the toaster for no reason or something, I'd

631
00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:51,916
Speaker 2: be like, oh my goodness, like clean this up. It's awful.

632
00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:53,956
Speaker 2: We live in a pig style. But if I ever

633
00:28:53,996 --> 00:28:56,716
Speaker 2: saw that at somebody else's house, I wouldn't have that

634
00:28:56,756 --> 00:28:58,956
Speaker 2: reaction at all, and in fact, I would feel kind

635
00:28:58,996 --> 00:29:02,596
Speaker 2: of privileged to have been let in to their real lives,

636
00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:04,676
Speaker 2: just briefly. One of the things that it also always

637
00:29:04,716 --> 00:29:07,476
Speaker 2: reminds me of is when I'm writing my email newsletter.

638
00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:09,916
Speaker 2: You know, I try to offer insights and thoughts and

639
00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:11,996
Speaker 2: sometimes tips on how to do things in a certain way.

640
00:29:12,196 --> 00:29:13,996
Speaker 2: Times I get the most positive feedback is when I

641
00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:16,516
Speaker 2: sort of admit very openly to still struggling with some

642
00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,036
Speaker 2: issue and that I'm offering advice about. Because there is

643
00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,516
Speaker 2: a connection in just knowing that we're all in this

644
00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:26,316
Speaker 2: boat together, and nobody believes that the people who are

645
00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:29,116
Speaker 2: writing to dinner don't also have messy houses. Half the time,

646
00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:31,076
Speaker 2: we all know this stuff, and so there's a kind

647
00:29:31,116 --> 00:29:33,716
Speaker 2: of a barrier that we're putting up in a thing

648
00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:35,196
Speaker 2: we all have to go on believing and if we

649
00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:37,836
Speaker 2: just dropped it, we might actually connect better to each other.

650
00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:41,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, psychologists talk about this bias. That's called the beautiful

651
00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:43,316
Speaker 1: mess effect. Right, So we have this sense that, like

652
00:29:43,476 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 1: somebody comes over our house and they see the crumbs

653
00:29:45,236 --> 00:29:47,996
Speaker 1: on the floor. If we vulnerable you know in our professions,

654
00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:50,396
Speaker 1: that people will not like us or judge us, or

655
00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:52,356
Speaker 1: that will distance people from us. People will kind of

656
00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,116
Speaker 1: think we're too messy or something. But all the research

657
00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:57,756
Speaker 1: suggests that the recipients of that kind of crumbs on

658
00:29:57,756 --> 00:29:59,836
Speaker 1: the floor or a little bit of vulnerble, right, they

659
00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:01,876
Speaker 1: really like it. They feel much more connected to us,

660
00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:04,356
Speaker 1: They like us better. Right. Fascinating, This is the beautiful

661
00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:07,036
Speaker 1: mess effect, is that when we're messy, people actually like it.

662
00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,676
Speaker 1: They find it beautiful, they find it connecting. Like our

663
00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:11,596
Speaker 1: minds assumed that that we don't have to do this.

664
00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:14,316
Speaker 1: This came up really recently for me. My friend just

665
00:30:14,436 --> 00:30:16,716
Speaker 1: had a newborn baby, two week old baby, and I

666
00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:19,076
Speaker 1: was coming by to drop off food, and you know,

667
00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:20,516
Speaker 1: and I showed up and they have a two week

668
00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 1: old baby, and you know, she was trying to nurse

669
00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:24,356
Speaker 1: and like somebody just trying to put and there's kind

670
00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:26,916
Speaker 1: of stuff all over the place, and they were really

671
00:30:26,956 --> 00:30:29,596
Speaker 1: embarrassed by this. But I'm like, no, this is cool, right,

672
00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:32,356
Speaker 1: Like I'm seeing like, you know, like what the nappies

673
00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:34,716
Speaker 1: are and getting like a real glimpse into what your

674
00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:37,276
Speaker 1: life is actually like. Like it felt I felt more

675
00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:39,316
Speaker 1: connected to him than when I kind of saw his

676
00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:41,676
Speaker 1: real life. Then I might have if you know, it

677
00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:43,876
Speaker 1: was all polished and perfect and pretend, or if I

678
00:30:43,916 --> 00:30:45,436
Speaker 1: just had to drop the food off at the door

679
00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:47,276
Speaker 1: because they were, you know, too embarrassed to let me.

680
00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:49,116
Speaker 2: In, right right, And as someone with a very tidy

681
00:30:49,156 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 2: house in the week softer a newborn baby has arrived,

682
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:57,356
Speaker 2: as is possibly callt wrong priorities right right, exactly, something's.

683
00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,916
Speaker 1: Really messed up. Yeah, thanks to Oliver, I now don't

684
00:30:59,916 --> 00:31:02,156
Speaker 1: mind admitting that my office can be a bit messy.

685
00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:04,876
Speaker 1: Don't even get me started about the inside of my car.

686
00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:08,596
Speaker 1: But Oliver's next tip really hits home. Why is it

687
00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:12,316
Speaker 1: that I can't stop worrying about the future. We'll find

688
00:31:12,316 --> 00:31:20,076
Speaker 1: out after the break here on the Happiness Lab, we

689
00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:24,156
Speaker 1: often extol the happiness virtues of mindfulness. Since making the show,

690
00:31:24,236 --> 00:31:26,676
Speaker 1: I've gotten better at nipping rumination in the bud and

691
00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,516
Speaker 1: taking my mind off worries from the past. But I

692
00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:32,436
Speaker 1: still struggle a bit with what's around the corner, because

693
00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:35,796
Speaker 1: let's face it, the future is really scary. It's full

694
00:31:35,876 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 1: of things I can't control and events I may not

695
00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:40,796
Speaker 1: be prepared to deal with. On days when my mind

696
00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:43,116
Speaker 1: gets going, it can feel like it's all going to

697
00:31:43,196 --> 00:31:47,316
Speaker 1: be a total disaster. Author Oliver Berkman dedicates a decent

698
00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:50,076
Speaker 1: chunk of his new book, Meditations for Mortals to our

699
00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,796
Speaker 1: fears about the future, and his tip for dealing with

700
00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:55,076
Speaker 1: that dread can be summed up by a saying that

701
00:31:55,156 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 1: he was taught as a child.

702
00:31:56,516 --> 00:31:58,516
Speaker 2: The phrase I think you're referring to is just that

703
00:31:58,556 --> 00:32:00,276
Speaker 2: we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, right,

704
00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:02,836
Speaker 2: which I feel like has been said to me probably

705
00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:05,036
Speaker 2: thousands of times. By the time that I felt like

706
00:32:05,116 --> 00:32:09,996
Speaker 2: I really understood what a powerful thought it is, because

707
00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:12,036
Speaker 2: of course, you know, it's total logical in some sense.

708
00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:13,876
Speaker 2: You can only cross a bridge when you come to it.

709
00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,876
Speaker 2: I think any of us who are prone to anxiety

710
00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:19,756
Speaker 2: or worry. I think what worry is, you could even say,

711
00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:21,756
Speaker 2: is the attempt to sort of think our way over

712
00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:24,436
Speaker 2: every possible bridge that we could come up to and

713
00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:28,996
Speaker 2: reassure ourselves that we can successfully traverse it. But of

714
00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:31,556
Speaker 2: course you can't ever find that kind of security about

715
00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:33,516
Speaker 2: things that are in the future, because they are in

716
00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:36,196
Speaker 2: the future. And so I think that explains the sort

717
00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:38,396
Speaker 2: of compulsive quality of worry. Right. You go around and

718
00:32:38,396 --> 00:32:41,316
Speaker 2: around and around, hoping this time you'll get the reassurance,

719
00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:43,956
Speaker 2: and you never do because you can't be reassured in

720
00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:47,476
Speaker 2: that way about the future. And when you start to

721
00:32:47,596 --> 00:32:53,676
Speaker 2: really feel into how absolutely inevitable and unavoidable this situation is,

722
00:32:54,036 --> 00:32:56,836
Speaker 2: I think there is where you can actually let the

723
00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:58,756
Speaker 2: future be the future a bit more. If you think

724
00:32:58,836 --> 00:33:02,436
Speaker 2: it's very difficult to cross bridges before you come to them,

725
00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:04,476
Speaker 2: then you'll keep doing it and struggling. If you think

726
00:33:04,516 --> 00:33:08,636
Speaker 2: it's impossible, you might unclench a bit, and you might

727
00:33:08,836 --> 00:33:11,596
Speaker 2: rely in the present about the future. And there's a

728
00:33:11,676 --> 00:33:14,836
Speaker 2: quote I mentioned there from Marcus Aurelius, a great Stoic

729
00:33:14,996 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 2: philosopher and emperor, who says, basically, don't worry so much

730
00:33:19,356 --> 00:33:21,836
Speaker 2: about things in the future, because you'll meet them with

731
00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:25,436
Speaker 2: the same in the resources that you meet the things

732
00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:27,916
Speaker 2: within the present. And I often want to say this

733
00:33:27,956 --> 00:33:29,956
Speaker 2: to people and to myself as well. Right, it's like

734
00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,396
Speaker 2: you got to this point. Every single time you thought

735
00:33:33,436 --> 00:33:35,836
Speaker 2: you couldn't handle something in your life, turns out you could.

736
00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:38,116
Speaker 2: So there's at least a reason to err on the

737
00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:40,196
Speaker 2: side of thinking that the future things you think you

738
00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:42,716
Speaker 2: won't be able to handle you actually will.

739
00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:46,956
Speaker 1: But also jumping into the future now also messes up

740
00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:49,556
Speaker 1: these times when like you're really worried or horrified about

741
00:33:49,596 --> 00:33:52,196
Speaker 1: some future event that's like not even going to happen

742
00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:55,316
Speaker 1: in the way you think. This came up for me recently.

743
00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:58,156
Speaker 1: I just recovered from COVID about a couple weeks ago,

744
00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:00,756
Speaker 1: and I had this new variant where I completely lost

745
00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:03,276
Speaker 1: my sense of smell. And on day one of losing

746
00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:05,236
Speaker 1: my sense of smell, I was like, oh my god,

747
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:07,556
Speaker 1: my smell is gone forever. I'm never going to be

748
00:34:07,636 --> 00:34:09,436
Speaker 1: able to cook. What can I do with this? I

749
00:34:09,516 --> 00:34:11,756
Speaker 1: ordered these like smell kids online so I could start

750
00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,156
Speaker 1: training my smell. I read all these neuroscience papers on

751
00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:15,636
Speaker 1: like how do you get your smell back? If it's

752
00:34:15,676 --> 00:34:16,716
Speaker 1: gone and blah blah blah.

753
00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:17,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

754
00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:20,036
Speaker 1: I complained to my poor producer who's listening right now,

755
00:34:20,076 --> 00:34:21,596
Speaker 1: but I was never gonna get my smell back, and

756
00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:24,236
Speaker 1: how could I deal with this? And then like two

757
00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:27,276
Speaker 1: days or three days after my stuff he knows, cleared up,

758
00:34:27,476 --> 00:34:29,956
Speaker 1: it kind of just came back. But like those three

759
00:34:30,076 --> 00:34:33,996
Speaker 1: days were spent in utter horror, like complete planning, Like

760
00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:36,636
Speaker 1: my whole life was built around like what can I

761
00:34:36,636 --> 00:34:38,436
Speaker 1: do to live life normally given that I'm just never

762
00:34:38,436 --> 00:34:40,076
Speaker 1: going to be able to smell again? And that was

763
00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:42,356
Speaker 1: like utterly futile because like it kind of just came

764
00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:45,196
Speaker 1: back in a way. But at the time, it felt

765
00:34:45,236 --> 00:34:47,716
Speaker 1: like the only thing I could do would be to

766
00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:50,636
Speaker 1: anxiously try to plan and for this terrible future. Yea,

767
00:34:50,716 --> 00:34:53,476
Speaker 1: And so any advice for how to stop the rumination

768
00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:56,196
Speaker 1: and stop the worrying and future planning when it feels

769
00:34:56,236 --> 00:34:58,116
Speaker 1: like like how do we take the sort of marcus

770
00:34:58,196 --> 00:35:00,196
Speaker 1: orreliest breath and be like it's got to be all right?

771
00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:02,356
Speaker 2: Well, I find a lot of the benefit to me

772
00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:04,716
Speaker 2: comes from encounter, and I know exactly where you talked about,

773
00:35:04,716 --> 00:35:06,836
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the benefit does come from

774
00:35:06,876 --> 00:35:09,596
Speaker 2: pondering these kinds of phrases, and part of idea for

775
00:35:09,636 --> 00:35:12,716
Speaker 2: this new book of mine is to kind of create

776
00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:14,916
Speaker 2: a structure in which those kind of perspective shifts can

777
00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:17,476
Speaker 2: sink under your skin, as it were. There's another lovely

778
00:35:17,836 --> 00:35:22,116
Speaker 2: insight from the spiritual writer Michael Singer who says reality

779
00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:24,596
Speaker 2: doesn't need you to help operate it, which I think

780
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:26,236
Speaker 2: is a very powerful insight.

781
00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:28,076
Speaker 1: Now one resonates with me too. Feel really called out,

782
00:35:28,116 --> 00:35:28,916
Speaker 1: thanks Mike Singer.

783
00:35:32,356 --> 00:35:34,436
Speaker 2: In terms of something more practical, I mean, one thing

784
00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 2: that I think can be surprisingly useful in the context

785
00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:41,596
Speaker 2: like you talk about there is sort of I expect

786
00:35:41,596 --> 00:35:44,396
Speaker 2: this is called something like worry postponement, but I don't

787
00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:47,276
Speaker 2: know if it really is right, which is place a

788
00:35:47,396 --> 00:35:50,116
Speaker 2: market in your calendar, on your year, planet, whatever it is,

789
00:35:50,156 --> 00:35:52,436
Speaker 2: on your phone, that in two weeks or three weeks,

790
00:35:52,436 --> 00:35:55,756
Speaker 2: you will allow yourself once more to really like freak

791
00:35:55,836 --> 00:35:58,436
Speaker 2: out about that thing, so as to just create a

792
00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:02,396
Speaker 2: little island of calm right now, and also to remind you,

793
00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:03,996
Speaker 2: as you will find again and again and again, that

794
00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:07,196
Speaker 2: by the time that that period has elapsed, the thing

795
00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:10,276
Speaker 2: is no longer an issue and it didn't matter. I

796
00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:12,596
Speaker 2: do do this to this day with certain things. If

797
00:36:12,636 --> 00:36:16,036
Speaker 2: I'm sort of particularly concerned about some aspect of parenting

798
00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:19,076
Speaker 2: or aspect of household finances or something, I'll be like,

799
00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:22,636
Speaker 2: first of all, if I'm doing this really badly, and

800
00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:24,596
Speaker 2: I've been doing it really badly for years, like two

801
00:36:24,636 --> 00:36:26,796
Speaker 2: more weeks isn't going to make a difference. So for now,

802
00:36:27,196 --> 00:36:29,316
Speaker 2: let me just put something in the calendar two weeks

803
00:36:29,316 --> 00:36:31,156
Speaker 2: ahead from now and see what it's like. If I

804
00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:33,436
Speaker 2: just postpone it and it's not perfect, you still worry

805
00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:35,556
Speaker 2: a bit, but it does create space, and it enables

806
00:36:35,556 --> 00:36:37,276
Speaker 2: you to see two weeks later than actually the thing

807
00:36:37,276 --> 00:36:38,356
Speaker 2: doesn't feel so bad.

808
00:36:38,476 --> 00:36:42,076
Speaker 1: I was laughing at those examples because my producer, Ryan,

809
00:36:42,076 --> 00:36:43,956
Speaker 1: who's on the line, who's often the one that helps

810
00:36:43,996 --> 00:36:46,676
Speaker 1: me postpone my worry, literally sent me a text when

811
00:36:46,676 --> 00:36:48,556
Speaker 1: I was in this COVID situation where he said, why

812
00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:51,836
Speaker 1: don't we wait at least twenty four hours till you're

813
00:36:51,916 --> 00:36:54,196
Speaker 1: testing negative to freak out that you're never going to

814
00:36:54,236 --> 00:36:56,436
Speaker 1: be able to smell again? And so, but I think

815
00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:58,956
Speaker 1: this idea of sort of being kind to ourselves when

816
00:36:59,076 --> 00:37:00,596
Speaker 1: we're in the midst of worry, I think gets to

817
00:37:00,636 --> 00:37:02,636
Speaker 1: the last tip that I love so much in your book,

818
00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:05,196
Speaker 1: which is this idea that we all need to follow

819
00:37:05,196 --> 00:37:07,796
Speaker 1: the reverse Golden rule, which is very consistent with a

820
00:37:07,836 --> 00:37:10,076
Speaker 1: lot of advice we talked about in this podcast. So

821
00:37:10,116 --> 00:37:11,356
Speaker 1: what's the reverse golden role?

822
00:37:11,356 --> 00:37:14,036
Speaker 2: The reverse Golden rule, in the version I know, comes

823
00:37:14,036 --> 00:37:16,396
Speaker 2: from the philosopher at O Landau, and it's just the

824
00:37:16,476 --> 00:37:19,916
Speaker 2: idea that you should not treat yourself in ways that

825
00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 2: you wouldn't treat others, specifically other friends. I think I've

826
00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:28,756
Speaker 2: definitely struggled with the whole notion of self compassion, right,

827
00:37:28,796 --> 00:37:31,156
Speaker 2: there's definitely this whole world. I think it's fairly obvious

828
00:37:31,236 --> 00:37:33,476
Speaker 2: that this is a good thing, but I have always

829
00:37:33,476 --> 00:37:35,676
Speaker 2: had a sort of an aversion to it. That probably

830
00:37:35,716 --> 00:37:37,396
Speaker 2: is a sign that I really need it, because that's

831
00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:40,076
Speaker 2: what those kind of pringe reactions usually are. But a

832
00:37:40,116 --> 00:37:43,756
Speaker 2: big moment for me in understanding this was to realize

833
00:37:43,836 --> 00:37:46,116
Speaker 2: how common it is to sort of beerate yourself in

834
00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:48,276
Speaker 2: a voice, in a monologue through the day or whatever

835
00:37:48,396 --> 00:37:50,596
Speaker 2: it might be, in ways that you just would never

836
00:37:50,716 --> 00:37:53,876
Speaker 2: dream of doing to a colleague or a friend. I mean,

837
00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:55,916
Speaker 2: you probably get fired if to a colleague. There's a

838
00:37:55,956 --> 00:37:59,356
Speaker 2: quote in the book from the psychoanalyst Adam Phillips, who says,

839
00:37:59,516 --> 00:38:01,556
Speaker 2: if you met this person in your head in a

840
00:38:01,596 --> 00:38:04,116
Speaker 2: social context, you just think there was something wrong with them.

841
00:38:04,436 --> 00:38:07,836
Speaker 2: He says, he would just be boring and cruel, which

842
00:38:07,876 --> 00:38:10,756
Speaker 2: I think is brilliant. And so what I take from

843
00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:12,716
Speaker 2: this is for those of us who are reverse to

844
00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:14,756
Speaker 2: any idea that we're being asked to think of ourselves

845
00:38:14,756 --> 00:38:17,716
Speaker 2: as incredibly special and as the center of the universe

846
00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:20,916
Speaker 2: and showering ourselves with love, it's like, no, it's just

847
00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:25,836
Speaker 2: don't be more mean and less friendly to yourself than

848
00:38:25,956 --> 00:38:28,156
Speaker 2: you would be to other people. And this feels very

849
00:38:28,236 --> 00:38:31,516
Speaker 2: manageable to me. It's like, oh, okay, yes, I'm a

850
00:38:31,636 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 2: nice person. Basically, I think I wouldn't do that to

851
00:38:35,156 --> 00:38:37,476
Speaker 2: anyone I cared about, So how about I don't do

852
00:38:37,556 --> 00:38:39,356
Speaker 2: it to myself too. And of course it's just a

853
00:38:39,356 --> 00:38:41,876
Speaker 2: matter of catching yourself in the act of pulling yourself

854
00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:43,436
Speaker 2: an idiot or whatever it is. But I think that

855
00:38:43,516 --> 00:38:46,196
Speaker 2: idea of just self friendliness really sort of cuts it

856
00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:47,996
Speaker 2: down to a manageable concept.

857
00:38:48,116 --> 00:38:50,116
Speaker 1: And I love that you've made even this concept of

858
00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:54,516
Speaker 1: following the reverse Golden rule one that you just called manageable. Right,

859
00:38:54,556 --> 00:38:56,516
Speaker 1: It's not like being perfect to yourself and compassion all

860
00:38:56,516 --> 00:38:59,156
Speaker 1: the time. It's just like not treating yourself worse than

861
00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:01,316
Speaker 1: you would treat another reasonable.

862
00:39:01,036 --> 00:39:03,916
Speaker 2: Right, and the way that you treat other people in

863
00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:05,636
Speaker 2: a friendly way. It does not always need to be

864
00:39:05,636 --> 00:39:08,396
Speaker 2: self indulgent. Right. There are times when you might decline

865
00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:10,396
Speaker 2: to buy your friend another drink at the end of

866
00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:12,116
Speaker 2: the night or something like that. Right, there are times

867
00:39:12,116 --> 00:39:14,676
Speaker 2: when firmness is called for, so tough love has a

868
00:39:14,716 --> 00:39:18,796
Speaker 2: space here, but it's clearly done for friendly reasons, as

869
00:39:18,796 --> 00:39:21,716
Speaker 2: opposed to what we're often doing to ourselves, which is

870
00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:24,716
Speaker 2: just sort of screaming and yelling at ourselves.

871
00:39:24,916 --> 00:39:27,076
Speaker 1: And another thing we shouldn't scream and yell at ourselves

872
00:39:27,116 --> 00:39:30,796
Speaker 1: about is the idea of imperfectionism. You earned your book,

873
00:39:30,956 --> 00:39:33,156
Speaker 1: I think with one really important tip, which is, like

874
00:39:33,196 --> 00:39:35,596
Speaker 1: we've just talked about all these ways you can become

875
00:39:35,756 --> 00:39:39,876
Speaker 1: more imperfectionist, but you can't take a perfectionist attitude towards

876
00:39:40,036 --> 00:39:43,476
Speaker 1: your own imperfectionism, which I'm glad was a tip that

877
00:39:43,476 --> 00:39:44,676
Speaker 1: you had in the book because it was one that

878
00:39:44,716 --> 00:39:46,596
Speaker 1: I needed because I was ready to just as to

879
00:39:46,676 --> 00:39:50,036
Speaker 1: jump in to imperfectionism in the most extreme drill sergeanty way.

880
00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:52,476
Speaker 1: So any advice for how we can try to be

881
00:39:52,596 --> 00:39:53,836
Speaker 1: imperfect in it imperfect?

882
00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:56,316
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, just seeing it, reminding yourself

883
00:39:56,396 --> 00:40:00,396
Speaker 2: right exactly. It is so easy to take any useful idea,

884
00:40:01,436 --> 00:40:04,356
Speaker 2: even ideas which seek to push back against that sort

885
00:40:04,356 --> 00:40:08,796
Speaker 2: of absolutist perfectionistic stance, and turn them into new things

886
00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:10,556
Speaker 2: that you'll going to try to do perfectly and won't

887
00:40:10,556 --> 00:40:14,156
Speaker 2: allow yourself to fully show up in life for until

888
00:40:14,196 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 2: you've done them.

889
00:40:14,836 --> 00:40:17,236
Speaker 1: You are now kind of an expert on imperfectionism, but

890
00:40:17,276 --> 00:40:20,596
Speaker 1: you're the kind of person who has these insecure, overachieverer tendencies.

891
00:40:20,676 --> 00:40:23,836
Speaker 1: How have you kind of become an imperfectionism guru but

892
00:40:24,036 --> 00:40:25,676
Speaker 1: not gone too far with it?

893
00:40:26,116 --> 00:40:27,796
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think I'm often in danger of

894
00:40:27,836 --> 00:40:30,156
Speaker 2: going too far. But I think that the answer to that,

895
00:40:30,316 --> 00:40:32,716
Speaker 2: such as there is one, is to find ways in

896
00:40:32,756 --> 00:40:35,876
Speaker 2: your life to keep returning to these ideas and this material,

897
00:40:35,956 --> 00:40:38,716
Speaker 2: so you know, not to self promote too much. But

898
00:40:39,156 --> 00:40:41,356
Speaker 2: the structure of Meditations for Mortals is a four week

899
00:40:41,396 --> 00:40:44,236
Speaker 2: structure with a day's chapter for each day of that

900
00:40:44,276 --> 00:40:46,596
Speaker 2: twenty eighty period. Is designed to feed into that to

901
00:40:46,796 --> 00:40:49,516
Speaker 2: counter the risk of thinking that this is something that

902
00:40:49,556 --> 00:40:51,596
Speaker 2: you can get once and for all. And as you

903
00:40:51,636 --> 00:40:54,076
Speaker 2: say right at the end, I say, don't actually expect

904
00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:56,316
Speaker 2: to completely transform your life in four weeks. If you've

905
00:40:56,356 --> 00:40:58,476
Speaker 2: been following what we're saying, I hope you understood this

906
00:40:58,516 --> 00:41:00,916
Speaker 2: point that was not the goal. Another aspect of this

907
00:41:00,956 --> 00:41:02,796
Speaker 2: for me that I think is really important in my

908
00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:05,556
Speaker 2: life is just any form of journaling. Right So, morning

909
00:41:05,596 --> 00:41:07,796
Speaker 2: pages is the one habit that has really stuck with

910
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:12,076
Speaker 2: me decades now, not because I decided I was going

911
00:41:12,156 --> 00:41:13,556
Speaker 2: to do it every day and mark it off on

912
00:41:13,596 --> 00:41:17,076
Speaker 2: a schedule, but because it was so useful for me

913
00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:19,796
Speaker 2: that I just naturally wanted to do it. So I

914
00:41:19,876 --> 00:41:22,636
Speaker 2: never have to sort of make myself do that. Sometimes,

915
00:41:22,756 --> 00:41:25,076
Speaker 2: especially since becoming a parent, I don't necessarily get the

916
00:41:25,076 --> 00:41:27,236
Speaker 2: opportunity to do it. But that's a different point. And

917
00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:29,796
Speaker 2: anything where you're just sort of reflecting your thoughts back

918
00:41:29,836 --> 00:41:32,436
Speaker 2: to yourself in that way, to me, has the effect

919
00:41:32,436 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 2: of sort of keeping you on this, keep you on

920
00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:36,156
Speaker 2: a straight line here, and making you realize when you

921
00:41:36,196 --> 00:41:38,996
Speaker 2: are running away with the idea of oh, this is

922
00:41:38,996 --> 00:41:41,676
Speaker 2: a new thing, you're going to make into a perfect thing.

923
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:44,196
Speaker 2: Even that is almost too much right or even there,

924
00:41:44,196 --> 00:41:45,316
Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't want to give people

925
00:41:45,316 --> 00:41:46,956
Speaker 2: the idea that if they just do morning pages every day,

926
00:41:46,996 --> 00:41:49,476
Speaker 2: it's sorted. I am deliberately attempting anyway to sort of

927
00:41:49,876 --> 00:41:53,676
Speaker 2: constantly pull the rug from under this notion that there's

928
00:41:53,716 --> 00:41:55,276
Speaker 2: a system that will do it for you, and then

929
00:41:55,316 --> 00:41:59,156
Speaker 2: you get to not really show up. It's precisely working

930
00:41:59,196 --> 00:42:01,716
Speaker 2: the muscle of not doing that and coming back and

931
00:42:01,796 --> 00:42:05,356
Speaker 2: back and back to the real, messy, imperfect reality that

932
00:42:05,396 --> 00:42:06,116
Speaker 2: we're always in.

933
00:42:06,196 --> 00:42:08,316
Speaker 1: Oh, everybody's a work in progress. I suppose so.

934
00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:13,076
Speaker 2: And whatever happens, we'll meet that moment and that moment

935
00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:14,076
Speaker 2: and then that moment.

936
00:42:16,556 --> 00:42:19,116
Speaker 1: I think that's a nice and comforting sum up of life.

937
00:42:19,236 --> 00:42:21,356
Speaker 1: It's a series of moments that will meet much as

938
00:42:21,356 --> 00:42:24,436
Speaker 1: we've handled the moment that just passed. Will never be perfect.

939
00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:27,796
Speaker 1: We'll always be messy, but will be okay. In fact,

940
00:42:27,836 --> 00:42:30,716
Speaker 1: if we can embrace imperfection, I think we might even

941
00:42:30,796 --> 00:42:33,596
Speaker 1: be more than just okay. I think we might just

942
00:42:33,676 --> 00:42:38,236
Speaker 1: wind up becoming happier. So that's your first how to

943
00:42:38,356 --> 00:42:41,116
Speaker 1: guide in this new season, And just to recap here

944
00:42:41,156 --> 00:42:44,116
Speaker 1: are Oliver's Tips one more time. First, you got to

945
00:42:44,156 --> 00:42:47,956
Speaker 1: do things. Don't get stuck in that perfectionist fantasy plant phase.

946
00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:51,236
Speaker 1: Dive in and get going. Tip number two fight back

947
00:42:51,276 --> 00:42:54,556
Speaker 1: against productivity debt. You don't need to justify your existence

948
00:42:54,596 --> 00:42:57,236
Speaker 1: by getting through some huge to do list. Tip number

949
00:42:57,236 --> 00:43:00,276
Speaker 1: three is to remember that there's a cost to information overload.

950
00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 1: So resist the urge to stockpile all the knowledge possible

951
00:43:03,556 --> 00:43:06,076
Speaker 1: and the urge to care about everything. You've got to

952
00:43:06,156 --> 00:43:09,316
Speaker 1: just let some important things go. Tip number four to

953
00:43:09,356 --> 00:43:12,316
Speaker 1: reject the urge to always whole ass stuff, shoot for

954
00:43:12,356 --> 00:43:16,116
Speaker 1: eighty percent and remember the benefits of scruffy hospitality. Tip

955
00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:19,036
Speaker 1: number five. Let the future be the future. There are

956
00:43:19,036 --> 00:43:21,716
Speaker 1: lots of bridges we'll cross when we get there. Tip

957
00:43:21,796 --> 00:43:24,676
Speaker 1: number six. A little self compassion goes a long way.

958
00:43:24,916 --> 00:43:27,596
Speaker 1: And the final Tip number seven is not to bring

959
00:43:27,596 --> 00:43:31,996
Speaker 1: a perfectionist attitude towards imperfectionism. And so our next Howtoo

960
00:43:31,996 --> 00:43:35,156
Speaker 1: episode will build on what you've just heard. It's a

961
00:43:35,156 --> 00:43:37,716
Speaker 1: guide on how to be enough. That's all. Next time

962
00:43:37,916 --> 00:43:43,516
Speaker 1: on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos