WEBVTT - The Psychology of Black Friday - lab 119

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<v Speaker 1>I'm t T and I'm Zakiah and this is Dope Labs.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore

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<v Speaker 1>science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you doing Black Friday shopping this year or what?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I'm doing Black Friday saving? Okay, in this economy,

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<v Speaker 1>put those dollars back in your pocket. There's only two

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<v Speaker 1>of them, but put them back. What about you?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's been a long time since I participated

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<v Speaker 2>in Black Friday. I usually like to do like the

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<v Speaker 2>pre Black Friday sales that they like, you know, game

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<v Speaker 2>you on where it's like, oh you get a sneak

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<v Speaker 2>peek to our Black Friday sales. Those things get me

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<v Speaker 2>every time. But this year, this economy, you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>got to think a little bit smarter.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounded like think it's smarter, but also maybe dipping

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<v Speaker 1>your toe in the waters based on what you're just saying,

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<v Speaker 1>tricking myself, you know, doing a bunch of girl math

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<v Speaker 1>to say, oh, yeah, I didn't spend any money this

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<v Speaker 1>Black Friday, right, this is how it was supposed to be.

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<v Speaker 1>I needed this stuff. But you know what our minds

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<v Speaker 1>are tricking us all the time. And people may think

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<v Speaker 1>there's no science to Black Friday shopping and the deals,

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<v Speaker 1>but there is now. I know a long time ago

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<v Speaker 1>we knew that Amazon Prime Day was a bus and

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<v Speaker 1>we gave up on that right. But for Black Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>I still have questions. So let's jump into it.

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<v Speaker 3>What do we know?

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<v Speaker 2>I think we know that Black Friday is a very

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<v Speaker 2>special holiday. Can I call it that?

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<v Speaker 3>I think so.

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<v Speaker 2>For a lot of folks, people are camping out. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if they're still fist fighting, but I remember

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<v Speaker 2>that they were fist fighting back in the day trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get those flat screen TVs.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the flat screen TV. If there was an

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<v Speaker 1>ornament for America, that's it because it runs on capitalism

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<v Speaker 1>and consumerism. Put a flat screen TV on your.

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<v Speaker 3>Christmas treet this year.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that Black Friday has often been an economic

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<v Speaker 1>indicator or an indicator for what the shopping season is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be, what people are willing to spend, And

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<v Speaker 1>even as we've seen perse Strings Titan that over time,

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<v Speaker 1>people still spend on this day. And we just had

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<v Speaker 1>an episode where we talked about the economy, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering how you know, with this new influx of

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<v Speaker 1>what doctor West was calling discouraged workers, so people who

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<v Speaker 1>were you know, on the job market, but then you know,

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<v Speaker 1>got tired of applying for jobs and so aren't applying anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>How that will impact Black Friday sales? Are those people

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<v Speaker 2>saving or are they feeling like, oh, let me spend

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<v Speaker 2>during a time where there's more discounts. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how that psychology works.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I know the psychology of any of it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I need help because I think I've seen a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the like Doorbusters and the lines you know,

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<v Speaker 1>lining up in advance that's gone away, but there are

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<v Speaker 1>digital substitutes for that, like where it says twenty three

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<v Speaker 1>people have this in their car, and I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 1>better hurry up and check out.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that a thing? Is that real? Is something wrong

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<v Speaker 3>with me?

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<v Speaker 2>Every time there's something wrong with both of us.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we have to get into it because it

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<v Speaker 1>feels like it's a little bit of economics and psychology

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<v Speaker 1>tied together.

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<v Speaker 2>Mine all my money, money on my mind.

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<v Speaker 3>There you go.

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<v Speaker 1>For today's lab we're looking at Black Friday. And I

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<v Speaker 1>know people sometimes think like, oh what I buy is

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<v Speaker 1>my business and you know there's no science to it,

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<v Speaker 1>but I don't think so we have to look at

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<v Speaker 1>like free shipping and there's only three left, Like why.

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<v Speaker 3>Do those things hijack our brains?

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<v Speaker 1>And what's happening? Especially when I get an email that

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<v Speaker 1>says I left something in my car? It works every time,

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<v Speaker 1>it works every time. I'm like that poor little item

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<v Speaker 1>I needed.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're here to get some answers about that.

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<v Speaker 4>My name is done. Really, I'm a professor of psychology

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<v Speaker 4>and behavior economics at university, and I do research on

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<v Speaker 4>human irusianality and just kind of to help us think

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<v Speaker 4>about human irrationality. I think about what gets us to

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<v Speaker 4>act in ways that we don't know and don't seem

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<v Speaker 4>to be logical. Now, I don't mean that they are

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<v Speaker 4>not logical, but they're not the standard logic.

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<v Speaker 2>How people behave around spending really varies with a personal person.

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<v Speaker 2>I know me as a key, are not spending the same,

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<v Speaker 2>We're not spending the same. I'm fast and furious with it.

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<v Speaker 2>My friends, she's cold and calculated. But what types of

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<v Speaker 2>questions are you answering in your work? Like what can

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<v Speaker 2>we learn from your work?

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<v Speaker 4>I try to uncover what is the logic by which

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<v Speaker 4>we work, and the logic is often interesting and curious

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<v Speaker 4>and not consistent. So for example, you could say, why

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<v Speaker 4>would we stand in line for forty five minutes to

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<v Speaker 4>get a cone of Ben and Jerry's ice cream? That's

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<v Speaker 4>what cost us to dollars. It doesn't make sense rationally,

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<v Speaker 4>but when you think about the allure free and so on,

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<v Speaker 4>you can understand what it is. So there's a logic

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<v Speaker 4>to what we do as human beings, just that the

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<v Speaker 4>logic is not the we calculate, we trade off, and

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<v Speaker 4>we do we do the writing. So that's that's the

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<v Speaker 4>kind of thing that I try to uncover.

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<v Speaker 1>H So this is a study of the human mind

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<v Speaker 1>and how it makes decisions.

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<v Speaker 4>My metaphor for the human mind is that it's a

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<v Speaker 4>vintage Swiss army knife. Two parts Swiss army knife and vintage.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's start with the Swiss army knife part. The Swiss

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<v Speaker 4>army knife is kind of okay in lots of things,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's not really excellent in anything. It's greatness come

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<v Speaker 4>from the fact that there's lots of tools that can

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<v Speaker 4>do lots of different things, and our mind is a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit like that too, not particularly excellent in anything,

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<v Speaker 4>quite okay in lots of things, and we can carry

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<v Speaker 4>it with us. It's a vintage Sweet Sarmon knife. And

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<v Speaker 4>what I mean by that is that our set of

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<v Speaker 4>tools in our mind to deal with the world evolved

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<v Speaker 4>in a very different evolutionary period. We were roaming the savannah,

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<v Speaker 4>we were dealing with hunting, we were dealing with lions.

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<v Speaker 4>Money is a new invention. We were not evolutionary designed

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<v Speaker 4>to deal with money. We don't have a detector in

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<v Speaker 4>our brain to figure out money. We think about compound

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<v Speaker 4>interest and so on. So when we come to deal

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<v Speaker 4>with money, we have these ancient tools that are were

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<v Speaker 4>never that good.

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<v Speaker 1>I like the vintage Swiss army knife. Yes, metaphor, because

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked about anxiety in today's world, like our brains

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<v Speaker 1>are not caught up to a cell phone and to

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<v Speaker 1>somebody texting you saying can we talk later? That feels

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<v Speaker 1>like the snake, you know, it feels like the terror

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<v Speaker 1>because we have these old systems. What are the consumer

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<v Speaker 1>issues that you think are could be it root costs

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<v Speaker 1>or brain but like what's affecting and hurting people the

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<v Speaker 1>most right now?

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, money is an amazing invention. It allows

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<v Speaker 4>society to move forward in all kinds of unbelievable ways. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>if we didn't have money, how society looks like. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>money is amazing. But money requires that we think about

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<v Speaker 4>opportunity costs. Money requires that we think about now versus later.

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<v Speaker 4>Spending now is unbelievably emotional. It really holds us and

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<v Speaker 4>we feel like something. We are not good at delaying rewards,

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<v Speaker 4>so we end up overspending now, sometimes even taking debt.

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<v Speaker 4>That brings us into the second problem, which is we're

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<v Speaker 4>not really good at understanding compound interest. In all of

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<v Speaker 4>the world, I would say the poverty trap is that

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<v Speaker 4>low income individuals take a loan at a high interest

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<v Speaker 4>rate and then it's very, very hard to escape. So

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<v Speaker 4>those are kind of fundamental about money. They're not about

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<v Speaker 4>shopping and so on, but they're fundamentally about money. The

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<v Speaker 4>other thing I would say is that we have not

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<v Speaker 4>yet figured out the way to make saving fun. Like

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<v Speaker 4>think about it. Shopping certainly fun, fun, Saving like it's

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<v Speaker 4>this invisible activity, like when was the last time you

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<v Speaker 4>went to your friends and you say tity, You wouldn't

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<v Speaker 4>believe it. I saved two thousand dollars and I found

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<v Speaker 4>a better insurance and I'm paying. It's not part of

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<v Speaker 4>the conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>It never is. Yes, And you know what that makes

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<v Speaker 2>me think about, based on what you were just saying,

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<v Speaker 2>how it's like way more fun to spend now rather

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<v Speaker 2>than think about spending later. It makes me think about

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<v Speaker 2>the buy now, pay later apps and things like that. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>that is relatively new to our way of spending. There

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<v Speaker 2>were things like layaway you would get the wouldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>the product till you finished paying. But now you can

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<v Speaker 2>get the product you've only paid a little bit, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you keep paying until you've paid it off. In

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<v Speaker 2>simple terms, what's happening in our brains when we make

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<v Speaker 2>a purchase and get to split that into future payments,

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<v Speaker 2>and what mechanisms make the buy now, pay later feel

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<v Speaker 2>easier than a credit card?

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<v Speaker 4>Ye? So, so what happened with the buy now, pay

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<v Speaker 4>later is First of all, the terminology is very good, right.

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<v Speaker 4>It doesn't tell you pay much more later. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>say anything about the interest. It doesn't say buy things

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<v Speaker 4>you don't really need and pay for them later. The

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<v Speaker 4>world has a vast interest in something that is not

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<v Speaker 4>consistent with our best interest. In mind, Every coffee shop

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<v Speaker 4>wants to sell you another coffee. Every restaurant want to

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<v Speaker 4>sell you another dessert. Every supermarket want to send you

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<v Speaker 4>another cook Now you can go to the supermarket with

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<v Speaker 4>a plan what's called the shopping list. But the supermarket

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<v Speaker 4>also has a plan.

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<v Speaker 3>It does, it does.

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<v Speaker 4>And their plan is not the same as your plan,

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<v Speaker 4>and they control the environment. They decide what to put

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<v Speaker 4>it hige level and what to put it the checkout.

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<v Speaker 4>We live in the world in which people have plans

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<v Speaker 4>to part us from our money. And then there's all

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<v Speaker 4>kinds of tricks. So let's start with it, like the

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<v Speaker 4>most basic trick. The most basic trick is called a sale.

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<v Speaker 4>Imagine that there's a shirt for fifty dollars versus another

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<v Speaker 4>store the same shirt, and they say this used to

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<v Speaker 4>be one hundred dollars and now it's on fifty percent

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<v Speaker 4>off and it's fifty dollars. Now why, like, when you

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<v Speaker 4>think about sale, a sale, something is it's fifty Why

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<v Speaker 4>would you care what it used to cost at some

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<v Speaker 4>part time in the history? Right? You shouldn't. You should

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<v Speaker 4>say is this shirt worth this price to me? Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>Or no?

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<v Speaker 4>Why do we care that it used to be one

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<v Speaker 4>thousand dollars and now it's fifty, but we do why

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<v Speaker 4>would we do a deal? That's right? That's right. What

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<v Speaker 4>happens is that we have a really hard time assessing value.

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<v Speaker 4>If I show you a shirt, I say, how much

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<v Speaker 4>is it worth? I don't really know, very hard to

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<v Speaker 4>figure out. But if it used to be one hundred

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<v Speaker 4>dollars and now it's fifty, it's probably a good deal.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's kind of a lazy way to compute value

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<v Speaker 4>without thinking about how valuable is another show to you. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>when you pay for something, you should care about what

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<v Speaker 4>it is that you're getting, but we don't. Why it's

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<v Speaker 4>very hard to estimate the value of what we're getting,

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<v Speaker 4>so we estimate other things, like how much work has

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<v Speaker 4>gone into that.

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<v Speaker 1>So as a freelancer doing different work, the better I

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<v Speaker 1>get at moving through projects, I have people on standby

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<v Speaker 1>that I can subcontract out to help.

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like when it took.

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<v Speaker 1>A long time and there was a lot of back

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<v Speaker 1>and forth, but really I didn't know what I was doing.

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<v Speaker 3>At that point.

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<v Speaker 1>People were like, oh, you've worked so hard, and now

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<v Speaker 1>they're like, you turn this around in twenty four hours.

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<v Speaker 1>We charge you this, sir, but also you didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>to wait consider this, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's and that's because that's because the question is

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<v Speaker 4>you think that people can assess the real value of

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<v Speaker 4>your work, but they can't, so so they assess efforts.

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.840
<v Speaker 4>So there's this story wait.

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.760
<v Speaker 3>For thinking they can do it, or then from that VNA.

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 4>Because because you know, if you if you go back

0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.319
<v Speaker 4>to the vintage twist army knife, they are not equipped

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.000
<v Speaker 4>with a way to evaluate your work, so they're evaluating

0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 4>something else. There's a there's this story that Picasso is

0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.599
<v Speaker 4>sitting on a bench and a woman come and says, Picasso,

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.280
<v Speaker 4>I'm a huge fan. Would you draw a picture of

0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.320
<v Speaker 4>painting of me? And he takes his pen and does

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 4>this thing, and in thirty seconds she has this thing

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.280
<v Speaker 4>and she looks at it. She said, you know what,

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 4>you have captured my essence. I don't know how you

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 4>do it, Like there's only one line and you've captured

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.839
<v Speaker 4>my essence. He said, how much is it? And it

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.720
<v Speaker 4>says it's five hundred dollars. He says five hundred dollars

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.120
<v Speaker 4>for thirty seconds. No, no, it's five hundred dollars for thirty

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 4>years and thirty seconds.

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, my experience over time.

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.120
<v Speaker 4>That's right. Now, we can say that, but the truth

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 4>is it's really hard. Fairness and effort are very much,

0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 4>deeply embedded in us, and we use them as the

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 4>strategy to evaluate things.

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.680
<v Speaker 2>We said a lot about Black Friday and shopping and

0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 2>spending money, but I feel like not everything can be

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 2>completely bad. There's always a little bit of good there, right,

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.119
<v Speaker 2>no absolute evil, Like, what's the silver lining.

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.960
<v Speaker 3>On this h chaotic evil? Chaotic good?

0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.440
<v Speaker 4>Black Friday is very special. It's one day of the year.

0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 4>It's one day of the year. Now, imagine that you

0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 4>went on an expensive meal. Imagine that usually you go

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 4>out and you spend one hundred dollars on dinner and

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 4>you buy the second chip this morning on the menu.

0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 4>Imagine that on some Tuesday, at some point you decide

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:28.920
<v Speaker 4>to double your restaurant spending and double the wine. What

0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 4>are the odds? So it was Tuesday, what's the odds

0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 4>that the following Tuesday you will not say to yourself,

0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.480
<v Speaker 4>maybe I'm a two hundred dollars per dinner person, not

0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.960
<v Speaker 4>one hundred dollars person. So the point I want to

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.400
<v Speaker 4>make is, then when we deviate from a regular strategy,

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.480
<v Speaker 4>an upscale on a regular Tuesday, there's no guarantee that

0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.440
<v Speaker 4>we will not do it again and again and again

0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:56.520
<v Speaker 4>on the next Tuesday.

0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>This is what happened to me becoming friends with tt

0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 1>on Tuesday. She's just she's just led me to a

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 1>life of extravagance instead of a.

0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 4>One time they go. But imagine that you only met

0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 4>her and became extravagant with her one day a year. Now,

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.400
<v Speaker 4>it would not become a routine. So one of the

0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.840
<v Speaker 4>things we showed is that when people increased the amount

0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.800
<v Speaker 4>of spending and quality of their spending on a regular Tuesday,

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.320
<v Speaker 4>there's a big chance it would become a habit. When

0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 4>they do it on a very special day, Oh, I'm

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 4>only doing it on my birthday or Valentine's Day or

0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 4>Black Friday, then it remains constrained. So I think that actually,

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 4>you know, we spend too much, we waste, we spend

0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 4>in lines too much. I mean, there's all kinds of

0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 4>things to talk about the negative side, but I think

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 4>there's also some think protective on saying I'm responsible most

0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 4>of the year, and I'm going to pick a day

0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.680
<v Speaker 4>in the year to be less responsible, and because it's

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.159
<v Speaker 4>this day, that everybody does on the same day and

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:19.160
<v Speaker 4>so on. It would protect me from being irresponsible throughout

0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 4>the year.

0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.399
<v Speaker 2>I feel like a lot of spending, Like Sophora is

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 2>a store that sells makeup and hair stuff and they

0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>have Sephora Day where they say all their prices are

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.440
<v Speaker 2>going down, and all of these influencers that now I'm

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.480
<v Speaker 2>convinced they're being paid to do these videos, get on

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 2>social media and say this is what you should should

0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.680
<v Speaker 2>buy during the Sephora sale. This is my favorite foundation,

0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.119
<v Speaker 2>this is my favorite mascara, this is my favorite shampoo,

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 2>this is my favorite conditioner. I've listed everything for you.

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 2>These are the most amazing products and they're going to

0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.919
<v Speaker 2>be on discount on Sophora Day. And you see so

0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 2>many of those videos you start to feel like, oh am,

0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.119
<v Speaker 2>I going to miss out on the opportunity by the

0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.520
<v Speaker 2>saying will it be sold out? And so it feels

0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 2>like with social media and influencer culture, it's making people

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.480
<v Speaker 2>have this fear of missing out and then spending money

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 2>that they typically wouldn't spend.

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.399
<v Speaker 4>So, just to be clear what we talked about the

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:28.480
<v Speaker 4>benefits of Black Friday, that it doesn't apply to Sepphori day.

0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:30.120
<v Speaker 3>That's right, you tell her.

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.960
<v Speaker 4>And the reason and the reason is that the way

0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.520
<v Speaker 4>that our mind works is that this is a day

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.000
<v Speaker 4>we go a little extra crazy spending, but it's only

0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:46.800
<v Speaker 4>on that day. But if you do sphor a day,

0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 4>it's basically like you just spent on one day of

0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.919
<v Speaker 4>the year, but there'll be other days in other places.

0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.080
<v Speaker 4>And you basically are opening yourself up to say I'm

0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.040
<v Speaker 4>a sucker for special days day.

0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.600
<v Speaker 3>Now, and they're doing the stories, are doing it often enough.

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Every week is a special.

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.960
<v Speaker 4>But let's talk about the thing you described. A UNI

0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.960
<v Speaker 4>described a version of something that is going away, and

0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:21.120
<v Speaker 4>that's called scarcity. You said, it's a day. The next day,

0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.439
<v Speaker 4>I would feel bad about it. Right, it's basically how

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 4>does it work, it says, And there's not a lot

0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.359
<v Speaker 4>of it, there's just some of it. Whatever is available

0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.600
<v Speaker 4>will go away. It will not be to the next day.

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:39.640
<v Speaker 4>And scarcity gets us to think in a different way. Right,

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.040
<v Speaker 4>if you say, oh, this, this makeup would always be

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 4>there at this price, you would say not interested, get

0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 4>it next time. But this makeup is going tomorrow. Now

0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.879
<v Speaker 4>you start thinking, what if tomorrow I will decide I

0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.919
<v Speaker 4>want it and it will be not available. I would

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.640
<v Speaker 4>feel terrible. I don't want to feel terrible, so let

0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 4>me buy it now so that I will not feel terrible.

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:12.320
<v Speaker 4>So scarcity is another really interesting trick. It's called counterfactual thinking.

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.359
<v Speaker 4>You say, what if I will want it and it

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.960
<v Speaker 4>will not be there? I would say to myself, I

0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.239
<v Speaker 4>was not careful. I didn't think why I didn't buy it,

0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 4>and therefore we buy it. I'll give you an example

0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:27.399
<v Speaker 4>where this is really strong.

0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's what I want to hear about.

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 4>You go and buy a new electronics. Let's say it's

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 4>a big screen TV, standard American thing to do on

0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:44.280
<v Speaker 4>Black Prides, and the salesperson says, tity, this TV is

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.399
<v Speaker 4>not coming with an extended warranty. The warranty is just

0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 4>for a year. How would you feel if a year

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.399
<v Speaker 4>and three days from now, few of this a little

0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 4>part of the screen did not work so well and

0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:07.200
<v Speaker 4>you did not buy the extended warranty? How would you feel?

0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 4>And you think to yourself, I would feel very stupid. Yes,

0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.960
<v Speaker 4>I would say, why on that Black Friday didn't I

0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 4>buy the extended warranty when the person offered it to me?

0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.520
<v Speaker 4>So you say, you know what at the extended on.

0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.720
<v Speaker 4>Many of those places make more money on the extended

0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 4>warranty that they make on the electronic themselves. Because the

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.399
<v Speaker 4>electronics we compare, we think about, and so on they

0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.280
<v Speaker 4>extended warranty. It's kind of an emotional buy on top

0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:39.879
<v Speaker 4>of something.

0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:55.520
<v Speaker 2>All this just makes me think about girl math, like

0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>I was talking about before, and so that is the

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.359
<v Speaker 2>mental gymnastics that I do that allows me to feel

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 2>like spending my money isn't so bad. You know, Like

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 2>if I'm returning something and then I get store credit

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.960
<v Speaker 2>and I get something else with that store credit, that's

0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 2>something else that I just bought is free.

0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.119
<v Speaker 3>Okay, that's a direct line.

0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:16.320
<v Speaker 2>That's not how that works.

0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.119
<v Speaker 4>One other interesting place where we do mistakes with money

0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:25.560
<v Speaker 4>is what's called the pain of paying. So imagine that

0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.359
<v Speaker 4>tonight you go to dinner. Imagine expensive dinner that's a

0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.440
<v Speaker 4>two hundred dollars and you can either pay with cash

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.919
<v Speaker 4>or with credit card, which one would feel worse.

0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Cash Why, I don't know, I have no idea, but

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 2>it does.

0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:43.760
<v Speaker 4>It turns out that the thing that is worse with

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.680
<v Speaker 4>cash is the timing of the payment and the consumption

0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.360
<v Speaker 4>that when we pay with a credit card, we pay

0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:57.000
<v Speaker 4>some time later. When we prepay, we buy like a

0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.480
<v Speaker 4>gift certificate, we pay way in advance. If you go

0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.520
<v Speaker 4>to a restaurant with the gift certificate, it feels great.

0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 4>It feels free. When when you pay later it doesn't

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.880
<v Speaker 4>feel as bad. Paying at the time of consumption feels

0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 4>very bad.

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:14.600
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:18.280
<v Speaker 4>The pain of paying is about this idea that when

0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:21.600
<v Speaker 4>we part with money, it's not just about opportunity costs

0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.119
<v Speaker 4>and so on. There's some almost like a moral cost.

0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.679
<v Speaker 4>And the more cost has to do with how do

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:34.359
<v Speaker 4>we feel at the moment of spending. So things like

0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 4>credit cards are protecting us from feeling bad. Apple pay,

0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:43.240
<v Speaker 4>Google Pay. Even worse, we don't even understand what work

0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:49.439
<v Speaker 4>what we're spending. So a good piece of advice for

0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.560
<v Speaker 4>Black Friday is to say, make a plan of what

0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 4>you want to buy. That's number one, right, Buying things

0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.000
<v Speaker 4>is fine. Just make sure it's what you want, not

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:02.399
<v Speaker 4>what somebody else wants. And then and then the second

0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 4>thing is take the amount of money that you want

0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:12.360
<v Speaker 4>to take out and spend that amount. Wow, right, make

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 4>sure you don't go over it.

0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:15.440
<v Speaker 3>I like that.

0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.679
<v Speaker 4>That's that's very very important because the credit card is

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:24.240
<v Speaker 4>kind of numbing the pain of pain. Yes, And what

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.439
<v Speaker 4>you want to do is you want to feel the

0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.240
<v Speaker 4>pain of pain. You want to say the pain of

0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.840
<v Speaker 4>pain is basically getting anything. Do I really want this

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:33.720
<v Speaker 4>or not? You want that?

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:34.200
<v Speaker 3>Thought?

0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.600
<v Speaker 4>So that's also an important element, like the payment method

0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.920
<v Speaker 4>has an impact on how we feel about the payment.

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.320
<v Speaker 1>There are always viral videos and then the recaps with

0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.280
<v Speaker 1>strong opinions on going out to eat with a group

0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 1>and what happens when the bill arrives, because some folks

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 1>don't want to split the bill evenly because they're on

0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.119
<v Speaker 1>a budget, and they're like, I only had an appetizer

0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>and water and it if you going out with tit,

0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:05.399
<v Speaker 1>she's having lobster the entree as the appetizer and a

0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:07.560
<v Speaker 1>cocktail okay, and sometimes more than one.

0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:08.960
<v Speaker 3>If it's more than one, help us.

0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:10.960
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna have fun tonight.

0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.400
<v Speaker 1>But why do people get all cagy and weird and

0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:16.240
<v Speaker 1>talking about they don't want to be friends?

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:17.919
<v Speaker 3>And somebody ordered too mini apps?

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:20.760
<v Speaker 1>Like what is it about meal time and the bill

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.000
<v Speaker 1>that makes us turn on each other?

0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.840
<v Speaker 2>You're not yourself when you're hungry or after you just

0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:26.440
<v Speaker 2>ate it things.

0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:30.960
<v Speaker 4>When we do research, we try to isolate every element,

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 4>and in real life many times there are multiple elements

0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:42.480
<v Speaker 4>at the same time. So this story starts with escalating spending. Yes,

0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:46.359
<v Speaker 4>you think you'll come to do appetizers, and restaurants are

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.800
<v Speaker 4>good at that, right, And if there's alcohol, inhibition goes

0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:57.520
<v Speaker 4>down and you say, oh, yes, So restaurants are excellent

0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:01.119
<v Speaker 4>in getting us not to think about rices and just

0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:05.320
<v Speaker 4>to think about food. And there's a social element of

0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:11.200
<v Speaker 4>somebody's ordering, and when it's unclear who is paying for it,

0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:17.600
<v Speaker 4>there's like shying away from responsibility. Right, it's like a

0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:22.320
<v Speaker 4>mob behavior. Who is responsible? I don't really know who

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:27.399
<v Speaker 4>ordered all of this, And because you didn't say everybody,

0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:31.840
<v Speaker 4>it's equals splitting or something that people are kind of.

0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 4>It's like a mob behavior basically. So when it's the

0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:38.359
<v Speaker 4>same group of friend going, I really like the approach

0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:42.359
<v Speaker 4>of one person buying for everybody and alternating who is

0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.719
<v Speaker 4>the person buying. If she would have said to people,

0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:50.400
<v Speaker 4>send me the money your share, people would have because

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:55.119
<v Speaker 4>she paid, and we are kind of wired for reciprocity,

0:26:55.560 --> 0:26:58.280
<v Speaker 4>it could be very hard to walk from her.

0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything that you feel like this is one

0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:06.240
<v Speaker 1>piece that people need to know like even if it's

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.480
<v Speaker 1>not Black Friday, but just holiday vibes, Like we get

0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:11.200
<v Speaker 1>in a holiday spirit and that goes longer than one day.

0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 3>Like is there anything you want people to be thinking about?

0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:16.320
<v Speaker 4>So there are two other things I want people to

0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:18.679
<v Speaker 4>think about as we get closer to the holidays. The

0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:24.080
<v Speaker 4>first thing is that it is better to save for

0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 4>dis questionary spending than to borrow. So if you plan

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:35.040
<v Speaker 4>for the holiday season, try to save the money so

0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:39.880
<v Speaker 4>you have it in advance and then spend it rather

0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 4>than spend it and then hope to pay it later. Now,

0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 4>the last thing I want to say is, you know,

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.239
<v Speaker 4>we talked about the pain of pain. One of the

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:54.119
<v Speaker 4>things that the pain of pain teaches us is also

0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:58.400
<v Speaker 4>something about what is a good gift? So the question

0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:00.240
<v Speaker 4>of what is a good gift, there's lots of is

0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:04.359
<v Speaker 4>to think about it, but one way that comes from

0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.679
<v Speaker 4>the pain of pain is the good gift is a

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:13.080
<v Speaker 4>gift that somebody wants but feel guilty buying for themselves.

0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:17.880
<v Speaker 4>So imagine you walk down the street and you see

0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 4>a hat and it's a beautiful hat, and you're not

0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:24.560
<v Speaker 4>the head person. You never had the hat, but you're curious.

0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:27.280
<v Speaker 4>You go in the store, you put it on your head.

0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:30.159
<v Speaker 4>It's beautiful, you like the color of the shape, but

0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:32.920
<v Speaker 4>you look at the price tag and it's crazy expensive,

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:35.359
<v Speaker 4>and you said to yourself, I'm not the had person.

0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm not going to buy this hat. And you get

0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 4>home and you find out that your significant other bought

0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:47.120
<v Speaker 4>you that exact head from your joint checking account. How

0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:51.840
<v Speaker 4>do you feel? Most people say I feel gratitude. I

0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:54.320
<v Speaker 4>don't say to her, honey, you know I looked at

0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:56.479
<v Speaker 4>this hat and decide not to buy it. Please return

0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:58.320
<v Speaker 4>it to the store and put the money back into

0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:02.120
<v Speaker 4>a checking count. Example for something that people want but

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:06.280
<v Speaker 4>feel guilty about buying, and a good you know, like

0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.360
<v Speaker 4>between friends, Like I don't need to give my friends money,

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:14.560
<v Speaker 4>like I wouldn't directly deposit money into the checking account.

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 4>I want to do something for them that they would

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:22.800
<v Speaker 4>do themselves. So something that people feel guilty about.

0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 3>Tit does this for me very nice.

0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I do it for all the people that I love.

0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:30.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I wouldn't need this for me, but here's

0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 2>five hundred dollars for a spot.

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:38.400
<v Speaker 4>Ay when we did a study on gifts, and what

0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:44.160
<v Speaker 4>we learned was that gift givers don't want to take risks,

0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:49.400
<v Speaker 4>but the people who get the gifts often wish that

0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 4>people took more more risks. And I think, you know,

0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:58.760
<v Speaker 4>if I give you a gift, I want you to

0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 4>think about me. I want that gift to be a

0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:04.760
<v Speaker 4>mechanism for us to start caring more about each other.

0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:07.240
<v Speaker 4>I'm not giving you a gift because you can't. You

0:30:07.240 --> 0:30:09.440
<v Speaker 4>don't have enough money to buy a bottle of wine,

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:13.000
<v Speaker 4>and I need to subsidize that. So real gifts, not

0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 4>gifts that you know, you eat a bar of chocolate

0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:19.280
<v Speaker 4>and it goes away. Real gifts, it takes a risk.

0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:23.160
<v Speaker 4>You buy somebody hat, you buy them a drum set,

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:27.640
<v Speaker 4>you get them a chair. It's risky, yeah, but the

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:30.120
<v Speaker 4>risk has payoff in terms of friendship.

0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:37.520
<v Speaker 2>I found this so interesting because it really made me

0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:39.760
<v Speaker 2>rethink the way that I think about spending, Like maybe

0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I should stop doing all this girl math and really

0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>just save my money. And have you know these special

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:49.360
<v Speaker 2>days where I'm spending rather than making every day a

0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:50.040
<v Speaker 2>special day?

0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I think every time we have an

0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:56.960
<v Speaker 1>episode that shows me how the brain betrays me. My

0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:59.480
<v Speaker 1>brain doesn't know what to do with money, of course,

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, and we didn't even get into the like

0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 1>emotional ties with money as much as we could have.

0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:10.640
<v Speaker 1>There's so much there. There's so much also historical things

0:31:10.640 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 1>like what you learned from your family, what your friends do.

0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.160
<v Speaker 1>It's expensive to be friends with t T y'all.

0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:19.959
<v Speaker 2>Don't lie. It's very expensive to be as the kid's friend. Listen,

0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 2>it is very expensive. You must like carry on, we're

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:30.440
<v Speaker 2>just peasing a poe.

0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:32.400
<v Speaker 1>I want to know you know, now that we know

0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Black Friday isn't so bad. I want to hear from

0:31:34.920 --> 0:31:38.040
<v Speaker 1>our listeners like, what are y'all getting? Are you getting anything?

0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:41.160
<v Speaker 1>What's your take? Is there a special thing you've been

0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 1>saving up for all year? Have you seen a really

0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:45.920
<v Speaker 1>good deal? Do you think good deals still exists?

0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:48.479
<v Speaker 2>And also send me the links in the DM because

0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:49.720
<v Speaker 2>maybe I want that thing too.

0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:54.080
<v Speaker 3>I've learned nothing, nothing, y'all.

0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 1>You see how hard it is to change your mind.

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:04.880
<v Speaker 1>You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.

0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Podcast TT is on X and Instagram, at d R

0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Underscore T.

0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.680
<v Speaker 2>S h O, and you can find Zakiya at z

0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 2>said so.

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:15.160
<v Speaker 3>Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.

0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 1>Issara Acevez. Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:27.680
<v Speaker 1>by James farber Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and

0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is

0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Katrina Norbel.

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,

0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:46.160
<v Speaker 2>with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive

0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:49.760
<v Speaker 2>produced by us T T Show Dia and Zakiah Watte.