WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 98 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.479 there's got to be nothing new here for you. But 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.680 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:27.840 Welcomes it could happen here. 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.440 I am Andrew of Future Channal Andreism, and I'm here with. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:38.000 Oh wait without the Q. Oh no, yeah, it's ties 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.080 me and Mia Long. I'm also here at apparently missing 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:42.600 cues instantly. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:43.040 I don't know. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.640 It is barbarically early for me, So. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.360 Yay, b barically What time is it? 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:51.199 Ten o'clock? 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.160 Well, come on, come on, come on, come on. 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.560 Look, it would have been fine if it wasn't up 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:01.800 till three am last night dealing with a session of 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:02.680 minor crises. 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.080 Damn, that's unfortunate. 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:06.280 Yeah, it's all right. 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.319 Otherwise, if it wasn't a crisis, I would have like 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:12.199 flexed my early bird supremacy. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:12.800 But you know. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:17.320 I have enough since like seven sixth day or something 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:22.200 like that. It'so a whole job now, but I just 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.760 didn't do a lng of this one. And yeah, so 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:30.240 today I wanted to shed light on some really interesting history. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.960 I think of the anarchist movement in Egypt. I've read 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.360 in this book called Anarchism and Syndicalism in the Colonial 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:42.000 and Post Colonial World, and there's a section by a 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.600 guy named Anthony Gorman that I found really interested in 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:45.399 I just had to share. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.520 It's really specific. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:53.120 To the anarchist Egypt anarchist history of like the late 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:58.360 nineteenth and early twentieth century, And honest I find that 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.960 whole period to be very interesting, actually because I am 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:08.799 a dreaded Paradox Games fan and I enjoy my little 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.680 you know, like you three, you know, like that that 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.240 period in history. Honestly, any period of history prior to 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.280 World War Two I find interesting. Everything World War two 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.160 is just like a complete boat to me, and then 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:23.520 everything past World War two. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:24.480 Is like cool. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.160 But it seemed like the World War two period itself 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:33.320 not my thing, you know, Like tell me about the Phoenicians, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.919 talking about the Phrygians, talking about the Carthaginians, But I 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:44.520 don't really care about the axis, and which tank was 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:45.639 the superior tank and. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:46.639 All those different things. 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.440 A lot of these couldn't got history buffs into not 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.280 to a personal one cereal of course, whatever you know 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.480 floats your boat. But for me, I really like that 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.960 pre WORL War II sort of stuff and Victorian eras 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.720 one particularly interesting point in history, and a lot of 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:05.239 things will. 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:06.000 Happen in that time. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:12.320 Industrial revolution was shaken up around the world, Colonization was 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.000 going on, and the effects of that, but you know, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:16.480 reverberate for centuries to. 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.600 Come, and. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.640 The true successor to the Roman Empire, in my opinion, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.640 the Ottoman Empire was kind of going through a series 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:33.520 of crises, and Egypt, which was under the Ottoman Empire 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.480 and then Brook free of the Ottoa Empire, had its 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.680 own stuff going on. So I don't want to get 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.440 too much into that whole mess, but I want to 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.200 give some context because you know, this isn't this is 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.480 a history episode. It might be a two part history 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:56.400 episode in fact, So let's just start back. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:57.840 In the late nineteenth century. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.840 So there's this foreign work in community in Egypt thanks 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.720 to Muhammad Ali no relation, and he was the ruler 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.600 of Egypt from eighteen o five to eighteen forty nine. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.400 This guy was all about modernizing stuff like the military, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.640 the state administration, and the economy. So he invited skilled 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.000 folks to come to Egypt and lend their labor. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.880 Oh, isn't he the guy that Napoleon fought for a 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:20.280 little bit? 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.120 I think so? I think so. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.680 I mean, who didn't Napoleon fight? I'm sure if he 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.200 could have, Napoleon would have fought. 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:31.680 Like the dinosaurs, Napoleon fighting Cavement on the moon like. 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.240 And speaking of Napoleon, I really don't appreciate how I mean, 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.479 no disrespect to hawqu In Phoenix, but was Napoleon like 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.240 in his twenties when he rose up the ranks military 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:45.680 and all that. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:46.599 Like? 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.359 I could be mistaken, I could be confused him with 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.560 the other Napoleon. But I'm pretty sure Napoleon was not 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.400 the old man when he was making a lot. 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.080 Of the moves he was making. Let's see again, I 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:56.640 could be wrong. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.159 Well, he was more in seventeen seventeen sixteen. I'm leaving 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.320 I'm I'm leaving the maths of this as an exercise 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:04.920 for the reader. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.080 What really through his new office that there's like multiple 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.840 Napoleons and so I mix up the histories of the 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:20.039 different Napoleons. Reasonable, But if it wasn't that Napoleon, I 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.400 know for sure one of the Napoleon's in question was 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.320 like relatively young when he was making some of his moves, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.560 like in his early to mid twenties when he's rising 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.480 up the ranks kind of thing. Yeah, but I could 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.479 be entirely mistake, and I'm sure somebody will correct me. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.440 None of this is relevant to what this episode is about. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.479 But yeah, so Muhammed Ali again no relation. His successors, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.480 Sayid and Ismail, took things to the next level after 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.920 he passed on with some major infrastructure projects. They were 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:00.200 building railways, they were expanding canals, they were gonwa the 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.640 urban development, and they need a bunch of skilled workers 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:09.359 for a lot of that. So they brought in Italians, Greeks, Syrians, Dalmatians, 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.040 and of course they use their local Egyptian laborers as well. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.360 Many of those workers came to work on the famous 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:21.080 Suez Canal, of course, and that required a massive workforce. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.800 Yeah, many of them died. Yeah, canal dinging, like like 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:26.640 canal digging. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.240 I don't know if female high immortality rate profession. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.159 Yeah, yeah, like you might as well dig your own 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.640 grave too, like like dig it before you start, so 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.400 they can bury your body halfway through. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.919 Yes, it's like not gallows humor. It's like canal humor. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:45.760 You know, it's like we're dig this canal. We're going 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.800 to die here anyway. It's kind of similar thing I 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.080 could in the Panama Canal, although in that case they 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.680 brought in a lot of Beesian and other Caribbean workers 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:56.480 to Yeah, you. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:57.160 Know, set that up. 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.240 And actually the Panama now is responsible for, like what's 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.839 responsible for I think a third of the Beasian economy 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.560 at one point because the remittances they were being sent 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.760 back to their families at home. That's a whole different 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.840 chapter in history. But yeah, so this this massive and 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.400 diverse workforce is bringing, of course, not just their labor, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.440 but ideas, because whenever you get people together, they start talking. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.600 Egypt was already considered something of a place of refuge 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.280 for political exiles, so it's not very surprising that anarchism 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.520 was starting to gain popularity around that time, particularly with 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.160 the Italians in Egypt. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.160 Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing in this period 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.360 is like you can literally track the spread of anarchism, 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.000 like by where there are a bunch of Italians in 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.160 Argentina too, It's like anywhere there are Italians, anarchy spreads. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:54.960 It's like it's a me anarchism. Yeah, that's that's gonna 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.040 set somebody off. My apology is to the Italian community. 0:07:58.200 --> 0:07:59.000 I shouldn't have said that. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.560 Yeah they had, They hadn't invented fascism yet. This is 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.200 back when the Italians were still cool. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm probably gonna get a letter hopefully. 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.560 You know, there's nothing else what's attached to it. Italians 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.200 already had a history with the anarchist movement as we know. 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.240 I mean some people would. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.240 Of course, you're familiar with folks like eric co mana tester, 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:29.160 so there's no surprises there. Label and political radicalism court 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:35.520 sparks first in the Italian Worker Society or Society Operao 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.080 Italiana in eighteen sixty, which was formed to look out 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.080 for the interests of its members, and later on in 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.040 the mid eighteen seventies you had these veterans from Gary 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.000 Bali's campaigns, and by the way, Gary Bali is one 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.520 of the figures responsible for the Italian unification. And then 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.679 you also had other radicals, forming Thought and Action, a 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:59.160 political association with Massinian principles. Messini, by the way, Giuseppe 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.120 Mussini was an Italian Republican who advocated for liberty and 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:08.320 democracy and class collaboration and all that. Jazz Marx once 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.559 called him an everlastin old ass which is just really 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:19.520 funny and I had to include that there. He's just 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.600 like me for real anyway. And then in eighteen seventy 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.800 six more radical splinter group became an official section of 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.760 the First International in Alexandria, which is one of the 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.400 earliest attempts to create a worldwide association of workers and 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.120 socialist groups. I don't know if it could happen. He 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.400 has ever discussed, like the history of the International. 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.840 It's before but it gets messy, Oh god, it's yeah, 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:45.239 it gets. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.920 Messy, It gets cattie, it gets like we had to 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:49.040 spill that tea at some point. 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.400 Yeah, it's fucking wild, like especially especially once you get 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:58.520 into like the seventeen different Fourth Internationals, and it's a 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.840 time like the the Second International is such a disaster 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.120 that Hoseny Mubarik is part of it when he gets 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.480 overthrown like it's a it's it's it's a good time. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.280 And by a good time, I mean an incredibly bad time. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:13.240 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.120 Honestly, I just have to throw my head back and 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.400 laugh quite hotly when I hear folks talking about, you know, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:22.800 why can't they left unite? 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.920 You know, like where's the leftist unity? 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.440 Why can't we just come to like nah, this has 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.280 been taking place since nineteenth century. 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.920 My absolute favorite version of this is people being people taught, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.840 people being like, Ah, mar Marx wouldn't want there to 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.559 have been so much discord on the left. It's like, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.280 have you ever read any Marx like that? That is 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.560 a man who's writing is about sixty percent yelling at 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.040 someone whose ideas he's also stolen, like by volume. Like 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.400 one of his most famous, like one of the things 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.640 that you get designed to read from marks in college 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.120 is the German Ideology, which is like four hundred page 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.400 of him being annoyed by people whose ideas are slightly 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.840 different than his. It's like like, this is this is 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:06.240 this is an ancient tradition. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.160 The irony of Marx calling somebody else an avalastian old 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:16.000 ass will not be lost on me. And quite frankly, 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.600 this idea of oh Max wouldn't want this, Marx wouldn't 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.760 that really comes from that sort of messiahification of Marx. 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:25.800 I just coined that to him. You know, I could 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:26.760 send me my flowers in the. 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.040 Male because essentially what people are doing is treating Marx 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.679 and marx ideas and Marxism. It's just like Christianity two 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:37.559 point zero. You know, it's kind of like how you know, 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.679 people would have been saying, like, oh, Jesus wouldn't want 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.080 all this division in the church, except he just replacing 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.160 Jesus Marx and the chewch with the left. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:44.640 Yeah. 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.560 Like Marx has this famous line where he goes like 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.800 if he's reponding to like the first like French Marxist, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:53.840 and he goes, if this is Marxism, then I am 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.360 not a Marxist. Oh yeah, and then everyone proceeded to 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.000 ignore him but call themselves Marxists. Well this is great 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:02.440 things have gone. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:04.720 This is yeah. Yeah. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.160 I mean even in their lifetimes, all of these figures 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.079 that we respect now, they didn't really like the admirers, 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.720 like Mala Testa was quite embarrassed that he had fans. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:19.000 I recall, yeah, no, it to be clear, to be clear, 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.400 that is that is the appropriate were actually having fans. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.480 It is a terrifying thing, right sure, Flea and terror 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:27.439 exactly exactly. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:35.600 Back to Alexandria, right where the First International's first official section, 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.080 one of its sections came about. And it was one 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.360 of the earliest attempts to create a world wide association 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.760 of workers and socialist groups and expanded and it formed 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.160 sections in Cairo and in Port Said and in Ismailia 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:53.160 or Ismailia Ismailia. And they even had the idea of 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.120 spreading socialist propaganda and different languages like Italian and Greek 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.839 and Turkish and Arabic to reach more folks in the 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.280 quote unquote East. They want to take the ideas of 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:09.160 the First International beyond chest European communities, you know, try 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.400 and reach out to the locals. Unfortunately, for those familiar 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.600 the history of the First International, it fizzled out, so 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.440 you know, they couldn't really fully execute their plans. But 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.920 you know, they got to get them credit for trying 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.679 to make a difference beyond their own little circles. Meanwhile, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.599 Egypt was in the midst of a deep political crisis. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.280 The military was pissed because of the disastrous Egypt to 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.880 European War. The upper ranks the civil service, the army, 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.080 in the business world had become dominated by Europeans, who 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.800 were paid much more than native Egyptians. The country's inability 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.440 to service its debt from cost the infrastructure projects and 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.520 lavish spending by maayel It's rue at the time led 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.360 to European control over its treasury in eighteen seventy six 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.680 and other European treasure pressure. Ismayel was to pose in 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.559 eighteen seventy nine replace their son Telfiek, who aimed to 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:03.440 basically satisfy each his creditors by any means necessary. And 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.679 so this tumultuous political climate provided both challenges and opportunities 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.320 for the anarchists in Egypt. A revolt led by an 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.120 Egyptian officer of the Egyptian Army, Ahmed Urabi, sort of 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.080 deposed Telfik, establish a constitutional government and n British and 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.640 French influence over the country. Although he was characterized as 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:28.600 anti foreign, Urrabi received support from some foreign elements, including 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.600 the very same Italian workers in Alexandria and a lot 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.200 of the anarchists in the area. Now, as we know, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.440 anarchists are not really advocates of nationalism, so they will 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.160 fight for national liberation causes. So anarchists and nationalists foul 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.080 themselves on the same side when it came to fighting 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.160 against European imperialism in Egypt. So when the British were 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.960 causing trouble, anarchists like Malchester teamed up with nationalists led 0:14:55.000 --> 0:15:00.400 by Urabi to resist foreign domination. However, the the British 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.000 and French governments, who were intent on protecting their investments 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.920 and nationals, confronted Urabi, which resulted in British forces bombard 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.400 in Alexandria and eventually occupying the country in eighteen eighty two. 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.280 Throughout the early years of British occupation, the anarchist movement 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.080 in Egypt faced both internal divisions and factionalism. Both internal 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.240 divisions and factionalism, similar to what was happening in other 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.040 parts of the world. Anarchists and socialists had been uneasy 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.280 comrades under the umbrella of the International during the eighteen seventies, 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.680 but the defection of a particularly locally influential figure named 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:41.400 Andrea Costa from libertarian socialism from libertarian Socialism in eighteen 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.840 seventy nine caused a significant schism. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:44.440 Within the local movement. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.160 Let me reread that so anarchists and socialists had been 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.800 uneasy comrades under the umbrella of the International during the 0:15:54.840 --> 0:16:01.560 eighteen seventies, but the defection of one particularly locally influential 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.520 figure named Andrea Costa from the School of Libertarian Socialism 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.480 in eighteen seventy nine caused a significant schism within the 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.400 local movement, and the movement also suffered other interial divisions, 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:20.040 particularly with the enduring conflict between anti organizationalists and anarcho 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.920 syndicalists on the role of collective association in achieving anarchist 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.520 aims quote. Until the end of the nineteenth century, the 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.560 former trend appears to have been in the ascendency, but 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.040 the growth of the labor movement anarcho synicalists expanded their influence. 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.720 Other disputes reflected the power of personalities. Ugo Parini, a 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.240 key figure staunch anti organizationalist, was notorious for his uncompromising 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.880 style and was a persistent obstacle to create a cooperation 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.320 among anarchists. Not until after his death in nineteen oh 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.560 six was a national program of action agreed, which provided 0:16:55.600 --> 0:17:00.360 a solid basis for collaboration within the Egyptian movement. Now, 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.720 I didn't find any rightings by Ugoprini himself to speak 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.880 his piece, but it sounds like he might have been 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.320 a e alas and old ass himself, if you know, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.719 after the moment he died, they were able to finally 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.640 come together and come to agreement on something that means 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:25.160 pros like a significant obstacle to the organization of efforts. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.919 But you know, he fought with his principles and he 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.320 died by them, so you know some respect there. So 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.560 until the end of nineteenth century, the anti organizationalists seem 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.640 to have had the upper hand, but with the growth 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.040 of the labor movement, anarchist syndicalists gained a lot more influence. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.760 Tut tut leftist disunity strikes again. The real downside of 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.800 this history is that the anarchist movement was still quite 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.159 European and quite male, and the rights and nationalist movements 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:03.440 were not exactly helping matters. However, while the majority of 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:08.240 anarchists women, there was a women's section establishing Chiroage in 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.399 the eighteen seventies, so there was some female participation happening 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.920 as well. You know, it's the real, real barby moment. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.560 There you know, real win for feminism. The ethnic diversity 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.600 of the anarchist movement in Egypt did expand over time, 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.560 though although Italians remained the dominant group until World War One, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.080 they were one attracted Greeks, Jews, Germans, and various Eastern 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.880 European nationalities arabifhone. Egyptians also began to play a lot 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.280 more significant role, as seeing in the involvement in industrial actions, 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.080 educational activities, and anarchist meetings during the early nineteen hundreds, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.160 and the occupational backgrounds of these anarchists were just as 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:54.600 diverse as the ethnicities. Skilled artisans, including carpenters, masons, tailors, 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.879 and painters were among the majority. Some came from the 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:02.000 petit bourgeoisie like cruisers and tabanawas, while others were involved 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.960 in trade or word for merchant hoses, and the movement 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.879 also include professionals like doctors, lawyers, and journalists. By the 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.240 late nineteenth century, the anarchistic community started to shift its 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:18.000 focus towards the new working class, such as cigarette workers, printers, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:24.440 and employees of large utilities like tramway companies. However, despite 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.879 this diversity, and despite all the calls for internationalism. Local 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.679 nationalist associations still held a lot of power because they 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.840 provided their communities with welfare services and social events and 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.480 all that. It's kind of like how immigrants in new 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:46.600 countries even today will typically like group together in enclaves 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.520 and communities to share their culture and to share their 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:55.679 support economic and otherwise, when in a situation where everyone 0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:00.280 around you is perceived as foreign, and you can some 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.000 measure of security and say, if you know, what's a 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.280 cultural proscilation, that is a thing that immigrants tend to do, 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.960 and these workers were immigrants to Egypt, and so they 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.719 kind of did the same thing. Unfortunately, many of these 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.640 national associations were controlled by bourgeois interests in the Greek community. 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.800 For example, the powers of the bourgeois o higarchy in 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:24.120 funding and controlling community institutions really worked to keep workers 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.040 in line with what the authorities wanted, because if you 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.480 stepped out of line from what this oligarchy wanted, you know, 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.080 you kind of like lose access to those essential community institutions. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.760 And if you try, if you still have like a 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.400 family to take care of, a family that you might 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:43.840 have brought to Egypt or started in Egypt, or really 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.520 just struggling against meat or you know, your fish out 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.720 of water and you don't really know any other languages, 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.840 you just know your own people. To be isolated like 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.480 that is really hazard a situation to be in, and 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.840 so that's how they kept people in line. But that's 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.920 in terms of the European nowists. There's also some rise 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.360 in Egyptian nationalism. They also had some sway originally Egyptian 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.800 nationalists called signs of militant labor as part of a 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:15.520 European disease an alien Egyptian context, which, by the way, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:16.560 I've noticed a lot of. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:22.560 Right wing organizations and movements. 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:28.600 Tend to apply that pseudo anti imperial label to things, 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.560 so you would see it with for example, some right 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:40.800 wing African nationalist groups would describe the presence of homosexuality 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:45.800 in the country as a consequence of European imperialism. European 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.960 cludism is completely foreign to any kind of African context, 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:51.080 history or whatever, which. 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:56.400 Is entirely false. But they do use that sort of like. 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:03.080 False anti imperialism to build up their power base and 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.680 build up their reactionary base, So it's a partner. You 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.760 can't observe a lot of these right Way movements and 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:16.040 particularly global South right way movements. Interestingly, though the Egyptian 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.920 nationalists who were calling in militant labor European disease, the 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.159 opinions turned around kind of quick when they saw how 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.120 potent it was for exercise and power. In nineteen oh nine, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:31.000 the Watani Party openly backed the formation of the Manual 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:35.280 Trades Workers Union, which was a diverse body of Egyptian 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:41.240 urban workers, because they recognized the party finally recognized both 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.320 the need to constitute a broader national community and the 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:50.200 political potential of the workers in the struggle against British occupation. Now, 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.439 before the different nationalists came around on this, the anarcho 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.080 Synicolists had already begun trying to attract more Egyptian workers 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:01.480 into their internationalists anarchist struggle. They knew how They knew 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.199 that to make a real impact they had to connect 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:05.879 with native Egyptian workers. 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:07.480 But it's a thing, you know. 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.640 The international union structure wasn't always practical for them. Many 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.240 occupations in Egypt were pretty much exclusive to Egyptians, and 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:18.520 many occupations in Egypt were pretty much exclusive to Europeans, 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.760 so forming those unions was easier, said than done, but 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:24.840 I didn't stop the anarchists from trying. You know, they 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.480 saw the importance of promoting lab organization and militancy among 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.719 the Egyptian working class, and so when the cab drivers 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.560 and Alexandria went on strike in nineteen oh three, the 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.399 anarchists were there to gas them up. The anarchists who, 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.520 of course trying to emphasize what the workers had in common, 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.880 the lack of boundaries that labor has that doesn't care 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.880 for things like nationality, or religion or race, that all 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.480 workers had the same needs, the same struggles, and the 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:54.879 same aspirations for their well being. Of course, the nationalists 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:58.080 had their own political visions, so while anarchists emphasized international 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:02.600 solidarity and shared interests, nationalists will resort into nativist appeals 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.760 and organizational tactics to splinter the labor movement and break 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.960 up at internationalist orientation. To give them some credit, though, 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.919 the Returning Party did recognize the importance of allying with 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.840 foreign workers and urged Egyptian workers during the Trams strike 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:22.000 of nineteen eleven to unite and strengthen yourselves and increase 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:25.720 your numbers through combination and through unity with the European workers, 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.920 your comrades, and let me get to nineteen nineteen and 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:34.040 the quote unquote nineteen nineteen revolution. It's kind of a 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:39.000 significant moment in Egyptian history, and anarchists were there, so 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:43.000 let's talk about it. In nineteen nineteen, the British government 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:47.280 imposed new taxes and restrictions on civil liberties, which further 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:51.840 fewel the discontent and united Egyptians from various social, economic, 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:56.199 and political backgrounds. The spark that ignited the revolution was 0:24:56.200 --> 0:25:00.280 a deportation of Egyptian nationalist leaders Sad Saglu and other 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:06.080 political figures by the British authorities for opposing their policies. Irresponse, 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:12.280 massive protests erupted across the country, with strikes, demonstrations, and 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:17.040 civil disobedience becoming widespread. Egyptians from all walks of life, 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.520 including workers, students, intellectuals, and peasants, took part in the movement. 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:24.359 They were influenced, in part by the strategies and tactics 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.439 of the syndicalist presence in the region and abroad at 0:25:27.440 --> 0:25:30.639 the time. The revolution gained momentum and the demands of 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:35.720 the protesters became more explicit, calling for full independence, a constitution, 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:39.760 and an end to British rule. The British authorities initially 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:42.480 tried to suppress the protests with force, which of course 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:47.960 led to violent clashes and bloodshed. However, the resilience and 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.200 unity of the Egyptian people ultimately forced the British government 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.919 to recognize the scale of the uprising and the strength 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.280 of the nationalist movement. In nineteen twenty two, the United 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:02.159 Kingdom unilaterally declared Egypt's independence. Do the British continue to 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:09.000 exude considerable influence over Egyptian affairs, One could argue that 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:11.959 the specter of anarchism would raise its head again in 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:15.920 Egypt's history, particularly during the Hour of Spring in twenty eleven, 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.920 when anarchic tactics can be found across the Middle East 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:23.280 and North Africa. In the next part, I'll be talking 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:26.119 more about what anarchists would doin in Egypt in the 0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:29.960 late nineteenth and the twentieth centuries. But for now, I 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.280 hope that today's anarchists in Egypt and elsewhere can keep 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.000 the flame of freedom burning or power to all the 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:41.959 people peace. Oh one, this has been Andrew. You can 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:46.240 follow me on eat dot com, slash Andrewism and support 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:50.160 the Patreon, a picature dot com slash Saturn. See y'all 0:26:50.160 --> 0:27:07.800 next time. Welcome to take it up in here. I'm 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:11.720 Andrew of the channel Andrewism, and I'm here. 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:20.560 With Mia who didn't miss them learning today. 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:22.639 I just wanted to shed lights on just some of 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:25.280 the interesting history of the anarchists move went in Egypt. 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:28.520 This is part two, first part really, but just went 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.000 into the historical context and progression and how the anarchist 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:36.119 community emerged in Egypt, you know, fueled by this growing 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:40.159 Mediterranean network of migration, labor, mobility and communication. 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:42.760 Of course, it started. 0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:46.000 With the Italian community, known for their anarchism in that time, 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:49.280 but they soon gained the support of other groups sharing 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.520 a radical vision of social emancipation. I learned all this 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:56.440 from the book Anarchism and Syndicalism in the Colonial and 0:27:56.480 --> 0:28:01.080 Post Colonial World, particularly the section written by Anthony Gormann 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:08.840 on Egyptian history. In the years leading up to World 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:13.639 War One, anarchos cynicalism, represented by the International Union, played 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:17.640 a leading role in organizing and developing a militant labor movement, 0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:21.760 advocating for international solidarity among workers. They adapted well to 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:26.680 Egypt's diverse society, embracing ethnic and religious pluralism and internationalism 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:32.400 while opposing capitalism. Anarchists, along with socialists and liberals, contributed 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:35.600 to the advancement of secular thoughts and Egyptian intellectual life, 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:40.040 leaven significant impact on their society. However, the anarchist movement 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.920 faced challenges due to the state's coercion through surveillance, prosecution, 0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:49.200 and deportation. The authorities portrayed them as dissolute political adventurers 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:54.360 pushing an alien ideology. Despite their achievements in formulating and 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:58.800 anti capitalist discourse and advocating for social emancipation, other forces 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.800 like the Egyptian Communists and Egyptian National Movement would take 0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:04.440 on some of the ideas with a louder and more 0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:07.800 prominent voice. Do they just want to give more details 0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:10.360 on the movement and what exactly they were doing in 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:15.800 their heyday? Clearly, the anarchists went to Egypt was not 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.760 confined to the local It was all about connected with 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:22.800 anarchists from different countries, making international friendships and fighting for 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:26.640 their shared ideals. The anarchists in Egypt got involved with 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:30.640 the conference in Verva's and conferences in London and Italy 0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:35.000 and hung out with anarchists from Istanbul, Greece, Tunisia and more. 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:39.480 Egypt became the spot for anarchists in the eastern Mediterranean, 0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:41.960 and they'd made connections all the way to the United 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:43.240 States and South America. 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:47.040 It's kind of interestingly playing a similar role to like 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:51.760 early nineteen hundreds Japan in terms of the anarchist movement, 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:53.920 where yeah, it's you know, get you get these sort 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:56.840 of like regional hubs that develop and people sort of 0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.480 like moved through and around them, which I think is 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:00.240 really interesting. 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:06.720 Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, and each of being a hub, 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.440 you know, a lot of big name anarchists to are visiting, oh, 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:13.080 you know, a big name talking people like am Claire 0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:19.520 cypriani Elis Recluse, Aricoma ro Testa, Luigi Kaliani, and Pietro Gory. 0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:25.680 And of course with these agitators in the mix, the 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:28.720 authority has got a little new of us. But the 0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:33.600 real life flood of the movement with not these influential figures, 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:38.320 they were the publications that this community was producing and 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:43.360 reading and distributing. The anarchists in Egypt didn't just read 0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.720 from newsletters all around the world though that was a 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:49.120 part of it, but they also contributed. 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:49.680 Their own articles. 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:54.280 But always happening in Egypt, they're connected, informed and motivated 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:57.960 by the international community they had built. There are a bunch 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:02.680 of publications dedicated to workers is use, offering insights, debates, 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:07.000 and discussions on common difficulties on matters of labor organization 0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:12.040 and strategy. Facilitated by an increasingly developed international transport system, 0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:16.720 particularly steamership services, the International Anarchist press served as a 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:19.680 vital channel the dissemination and diffusion. 0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:20.680 Of the movement's ideas. 0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:27.520 It was the anarchist Library before the anarchist Library in 0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:28.000 terms of. 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:30.480 How they went about organizing and propriation. 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.680 In Egypt, the anarchists there recognized the unique challenges of 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:35.920 the local situation. 0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:36.520 That they have to deal with. 0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:42.040 For the European anarchists, promoting the message of emancipation and 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:45.720 combat and the exploitation, ignorance and injustice caused by capitalism, 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:49.200 the states and religious authority would be no easy task 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:52.840 in a region where, for one, they're already being seen 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:58.160 as part of the onicle and attempts of political domination 0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:02.280 by Western powers, and also in a region with very 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:07.200 deep historical religious divisions, you know, such as the Crusades 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:11.520 and the British French colonization. It's really one of the 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:16.160 major projects I suppose the European anarchists needed to communicate 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:19.680 to the local population was that their ire did not 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.320 lay with Europeans as a whole. It lay primarily with 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:28.160 the European ruling class. And so when it came to 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:32.160 critique and societal issues and has strongly attacked the evils 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:34.920 of capitalism, and of course that had the best reception 0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:38.200 among the Egyptian workers. Of course, this isn't to say 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:42.520 that the European workers in Egypt were like completely in 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:46.240 common with the Egyptian workers. Despite the fact that the 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:49.840 ire of the Egyptian workers should really lie primarily with 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:54.760 the European ruling class that was responsible for the imperialization 0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.840 of their country and the expectation of their people. The 0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:02.560 presence of the European workers did also contribute to the 0:33:02.680 --> 0:33:07.080 exploitation because those European workers were paid so much better 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:12.160 than Native worn workers were. It was experienced and privileges 0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:13.920 that the Native One workers did not. 0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:14.960 Have access to. 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:21.440 Interestingly, although anarchists typically advocate for emancipation from all religious authorities, 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:26.440 Islam wasn't specifically targeted in their literature, and there was 0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:30.840 probably a pragmatic consideration for whether anti religiou rhetoric would fly, 0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:34.520 considering they could just be reported because of course that 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:38.160 was a crime. They still took on a hostile attitude 0:33:38.160 --> 0:33:42.360 towards Egyptian state, though condemn its course of actions, surveillance culture, 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:45.720 and abusive power, but they didn't confront it head on. 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:48.520 The program of action was far more focused on the 0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:52.920 goal of social transformation through the use of propaganda, education, 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:57.880 and workers associations. Because of the mixed conditions in Europe 0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:01.560 and in Egypt, the ideal people of different races, religions, 0:34:01.520 --> 0:34:05.080 and nationalities united in solidarity had some real potency to it. 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.600 So the internationalist mission was a very central component in 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:13.400 their messaging at public conferences and at labor meetings, but 0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:17.480 it really was more so about the speaking the propaganda 0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:19.359 of the word rather than the propaganda of the deed. 0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:23.000 In fact, interestingly, for that time, the anarchists in Egypt 0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:26.239 didn't really engage in much propaganda of the deed at all, 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.560 propaganda the deed being you know, political violence and assassination attempts. 0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:35.080 For those who know you know a bit about the 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:37.640 anarchists of that time. Propaganda of the deed was what 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:41.160 they were known for. They had some some big name 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:45.480 assassinations in the bios. For example, Franz fudinan I believe 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:47.120 was assassinated by an anarchist. 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:51.919 Wait, no hold on, France Ferdinand is the guy who 0:34:52.000 --> 0:34:56.839 was killed by Gavrio Prinsept, the guy who started World 0:34:56.880 --> 0:34:57.319 War One. 0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:01.320 Right, I've seen some so says call him a nationalist, 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:04.000 souses call him an anarchist. 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:07.000 I don't think he was an anarchist. 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:13.000 Yeah, he was exposed to socialist, anarchist and communist writings 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:16.200 when he was younger, through school and through his roommate 0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:21.799 Danilo Irich, but he was more so associated with nationalists, 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:26.560 particularly when he got around to assassinate in Franz Ferdinand. 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:33.560 Nazis and fascists did call him an anarchist and a socialist, 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:37.399 but it seems as though although he was inspired by 0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:41.440 nationalists and anarchists, he was more so in the nationalists 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:42.200 side of the equation. 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:43.200 Yeah. 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:46.120 I mean they did kill a few Habsburgs, which always 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.520 always a good thing to have less Habsburgs in the world. 0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:52.000 You can you can you can make you can make 0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:54.520 a chart over time and what access is good and 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:56.640 the other access is habsburg. You can see that they're 0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:57.759 inversely correlated. 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.440 Yeah, have spigs or something else. 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:05.960 But yeah, the anarchists in Egypt not too much into 0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.759 the political violence and assassinations. They were focused really on 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:12.480 promoting the ideas through spoken and written communication, you know, 0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:16.520 like public meetings, demonstrations, in the press, and the press 0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:20.600 was really the crucial axis of their efforts and disseminating 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.840 the ideas and sustaining their identity. They had local properly, 0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:31.880 they had local publications like that Tribuna Liberal, Lepero Looks 0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:35.920 and others, which save to spread anarchist thought and discuss 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:45.680 ideas and issues of social emancipation. The weekly paper l'apero 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:52.600 mostly promoted anarcho syndicalism, and then the paper Ill dom 0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:56.600 Dominie came up and decided to adopt a more tridently 0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:02.480 libertarian tone. And then you have Rise Again or Or, 0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:07.040 which is another people another weekly that promoted a very 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:11.280 strong anti clerical line. And then there was the people 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:16.000 who Ergatis, which was or the Worker, and that was 0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:19.600 an organ for the emancipation of women and the worker, 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:26.000 and it provided primarily for a Greek language readership are 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.280 see a lot of these papers will tailor towards specific languages, 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:33.360 so that Greek had Italian and you also. 0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:37.319 Had French like Leugnon and le Idea. 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:42.440 But despite its polygod character, the anarchist press in Egypt 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:46.439 doesn't seem to have included an Arabic language newspaper, which 0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:53.200 is kind of weird when you're surrounded by Arabic speaking people. However, 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:58.200 anarchism had regularly featured in the mainstream Arabic newspapers since 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.040 nineteen since the eighteen nineties, usually however in reports and 0:38:02.120 --> 0:38:05.480 the activities in the movement abroad, not locally in Egypt. 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:09.239 At the same time, there were also journals like Al 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:14.080 Muktataf and Al Hilal, which carried articles discussing the origins 0:38:14.120 --> 0:38:18.000 and development of anarchist thought and practice. It seems as 0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:20.240 though in eighteen ninety seven there was also a figure 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:26.560 who engaged with socialized ideas, but that particular publication seems 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.960 to have been closed down quite quickly by the authorities, 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:34.160 particularly for feature in the work of Salama Musa and 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:38.240 Shibli Schumayl, who were two Egyptian writers who were clearly 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:41.840 influenced by anarchist ideas. Something that just occurred to me 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:45.520 is that what it could be influencing this is that 0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:50.000 the Italians, in the Greeks and the French and all 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:54.160 these different people who are writing about these anarchist ideas 0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:59.880 in Egypt, It's possibly they had a bit more leeway 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:04.880 and it came to the local authorities that locals themselves 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.879 would not have. Their foreign status may have provided them 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:13.520 with slight immunity in comparison. And this is just me 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:19.000 spitball in, but it's possible that araborphone writers and speakers 0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:22.239 would be taken on significantly more risk if they were 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:24.560 to agitate in the same ways that these. 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:26.520 You know, migrant workers were advocating. 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:31.600 And then there's also the component and that speculation, but 0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:37.040 there is a proven component of financial difficulties and limited 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:41.240 literacy rates among the Egyptian population that made it difficult 0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:46.360 to distribute Arabic language material, religious and anarchism, you know, 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:48.799 because a lot of the workers in Egypt who spoke 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:55.719 Arabic were not literate. What did help though, because you know, 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:59.160 the anarchists were about that life. They would go to 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:05.160 cafes and read the newspapers out loud to reach their 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:13.719 target audience. The first podcasters exactly exactly, the first podcasters 0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:16.680 for real, as the anarchist movement in Egypt was really 0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:20.920 commemorating important political events, celebrating the principles through posters, leaflets 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:24.960 and flyers celebrating the animalu history of events like the 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:28.480 Parist Commune in May Day really spread that message at 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:30.440 international solidarity among the workers. 0:40:32.920 --> 0:40:34.560 Anchists in Egypt also. 0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:39.680 Very fond of showing solidarity to their international figures like 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:43.840 Francisco Ferrer, who was a very influential Spanish anarchist thinker 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:47.000 who did a lot of work in the field of 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:51.320 anarchist education. He created for their schools, which influenced figures 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:54.920 like Goldman to create their own modern schools in the 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:59.920 US and elsewhere. And he was arrested and then executed, 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:04.440 which led to a lot of protests both locally and internationally, 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.080 making him something of a martyr for the anarchist cause. 0:41:09.440 --> 0:41:12.400 And so the outrage expressed at the execution of Ferrero 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:15.799 was not simply just a protest against state attorney, but 0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:19.000 also recognition of his status as an advocate for cycle education, 0:41:19.440 --> 0:41:22.320 which is an important vehicle for you know, social emancipation 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:26.920 before Francisco Ferrever was executor, though anarchists in Egypt were 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:32.839 already working on educational programs. In fact, they launched their 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:38.839 most ambitious project, the Free Popular University or Universita Popularity 0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:44.239 Liberal or UPL, in Alexandria in nineteen oh one. The 0:41:44.360 --> 0:41:47.840 UPL aimed to provide free evening education to the popular 0:41:47.840 --> 0:41:52.560 classes and received you great support across Alexandria and society. 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:58.320 Courses included you know, the works of Tolstoy and Bakunin, 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:06.120 the arts, and pragmatic topics like worker negotiation strategies. However, 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:10.520 the upl's radical nature also brought criticism, with the Italian 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:14.799 authorities initiating legal proceedings against the UPR lecturer for some 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:17.439 remarks he made about the assassination of the Italian king 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:22.200 Umberto First, I of course leave you to speculate what 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:26.520 those comments and remarks may have been. But despite some 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:31.040 initial public support, its critics accused the UPL of being 0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:39.960 based on depraved principles. Now I mentioned this school before 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:43.400 in the episode did on Islam and Anarchism, and like 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:47.680 I said in that episode, ouric speakers wouldn't quickly marginalized 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:50.960 from the education, and the UPL gradually became more aimed 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.520 toward and controlled by upper class interests. In fact, within 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:58.680 a year, reliably bourgeois elements had arrested control of the 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:05.560 UPL from its anarchist phone and had ratid controlled the 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:08.680 UPL from its anarchist founders and proceeded to transform it 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:14.040 into a vocational college that, among other things, taught shorthand, accountancy, 0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:18.680 and languages. So, despite its very brief existence as a 0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:22.680 revolutionary project, the UPL marked an important movement for anarchism 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:27.279 in Egypt and inspired other movements seeking educational reform. The 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:32.480 upl's impacts and vision influenced egypt Egyptian nationalists, who established 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:35.359 the Higher Schools Club in nineteen oh five, which also 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:43.640 emphasized educational means for political purposes. Anarchism in Egypt had 0:43:43.680 --> 0:43:46.280 a significant impact on the development of the labor movement. 0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:49.160 As a new working class emerged towards the end of 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:53.760 the nineteenth century, anarchois cynicalism emerged as a powerful force 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:57.760 advocating for formal collective organization as the instrument of social revolution. 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:01.520 Of course, each just's labor movement was entirely new, as 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:04.640 killed have been part of the traditional Ottoman order, regulating 0:44:04.719 --> 0:44:07.680 trade and providing mutual lead. But the modernization efforts of 0:44:07.719 --> 0:44:11.440 Muhammad Ali no Relation and Egypt's integration into the international 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:15.600 capitalist system changed that landscape, affecting the role of guilds 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:19.080 and shape in the working class. Foreign workers, like I 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:22.400 just mentioned before, came into Egypt alongside native Egyptian labor, 0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:27.400 but despite the differences between them, evidence does show a 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:30.200 strong cooperation and collaboration between the groups. 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:32.759 The native Egyptian working class was. 0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:40.560 Affected by a variety of factors, but there was a 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:48.880 model of collaboration that was emotion between European and Egyptian workers. 0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:53.960 The Cigarette Rollers Union, for example, was initially a Greek 0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:58.560 body in Cairo, but later became more inclusive as their 0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:02.080 successful strike and eating nine to nineteen hundred marked a 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:09.840 milestone in Egyptian industrial militancy. However, their subsequent strikes fixed However, 0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:15.480 subsequent strikes faced brutal confrontations with the police, leading to. 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:17.200 Divisions among the workers. 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:19.720 By the end of the first decade of the century, 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.760 the Anacosynicalist International Union had emerged as a significant force 0:45:24.200 --> 0:45:29.680 based on universalist principles and international solidarity. The optimism for 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:32.520 the future of a socialist center in Cairo was a 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.719 reflection of the broader movement within the working class led 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:41.240 by anarchists and syndicalists. Anarchism first appeared in Egypt among 0:45:41.360 --> 0:45:46.240 Italian political refugees and workers during the eighteen sixties, Nurtured 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:50.800 by a development international network of labor transporting communications expanded 0:45:50.800 --> 0:45:55.200 beyond Italian circles, attract members from across Egypt's diverse communities 0:45:56.000 --> 0:46:01.640 the heterogenos through the discourse of radical social emancipation and 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:06.520 propaganda and public action declaring the universality of humankind and 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:09.720 the crime the evils of capitalism state power. On this dogma, 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:15.480 the anarchist movement would come into force in Egypt's history. 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:19.040 In the years after nineteen hundred, Anarchist cyndicalism played a 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:22.080 central role in development of the labor movement, ar circulating 0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:25.800 the rights of workers in struggle against capital, against capital 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:28.919 and promoting internationalists activism. 0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:31.200 Get wildly rejected. 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:35.520 Yet while they rejected nationalism as an organizing principle, anarchists 0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.080 did at times make common cause of the nationalists against 0:46:38.120 --> 0:46:43.960 imperialism and arguably had a reverberating influence on the strategies 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:48.319 and tactics of the nationalist movement. That's all I have 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:54.840 for today on this brief moment in Egyptian anarchist history. 0:46:56.080 --> 0:47:04.719 But I hope it illuminated very interesting chapter and context. 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:05.960 That's fair. 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:10.680 Yeah, And I think there's another kind of important, broader 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:14.280 lesson from this that is I think mostly forgotten, which 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:20.680 is that you know, from this period of I don't know, 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:24.719 roughly the late eighteen hundreds through about nineteen seventeen, like 0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:28.840 in most parts of the world except for basically like 0:47:29.239 --> 0:47:33.040 Western Europe, or not even Western Europe, like apart from 0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:37.960 basically like the Germany's, if you're talking about socialism, there's 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:40.120 like anywhere in the world, there's a very very good 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:43.200 chance the thing you're actually talking about is anarchism. And 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:47.520 you know, there's been a sort of systemic attempt by 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:51.279 both liberal and sort of later communists like historians to 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:54.600 sort of like wipe this historical record clean and make 0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:58.239 it look like everything was always sort of like the 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:01.680 sort of on rush of Marxism, but that just wasn't true. 0:48:01.800 --> 0:48:06.760 And they were very powerful anarchist movements on every continent, 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:09.360 and they did a lot, They did a lot of 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:13.320 really interesting things and yeah, yeah, that that really. 0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:16.239 Needs to be respected and recognized and it hasn't so far, 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:20.440 so fully this and if folks check out the book, 0:48:21.560 --> 0:48:23.440 they can get some more insights on some of the 0:48:23.480 --> 0:48:26.960 other actions that have taken place in that time. Again, 0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:30.040 the book is anarchism and syndicalism in the colonial and 0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:35.160 post colonial world. It really illuminates a lot of that 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:39.480 lost history. Thanks for joining me and we on this 0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:42.240 episode of That Could Happen Here Again. You can follow 0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:45.840 me Andrew on the YouTube channel Andrewism and support on 0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:47.920 patron dot com slash Saint Drew. 0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:09.440 It it could Happen here. Yeah, that's the podcast that 0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:11.440 you're listening to. It's also a thing that is happening. 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:14.680 The thing that is happening is it is a kind 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:17.120 of rough time to be a transperson in the US 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:22.120 and also in most other countries. And you know, we 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:25.879 do a lot of episodes on this show about how 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:28.080 it's rough and why it's rough and the specific things 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:30.840 that are happening. But also sometimes we do we do 0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:32.319 the other part of the podcast, which is to put 0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:35.479 it back together part of the podcast, or in this one, 0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:39.960 I this is more of a bring to birth a 0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:42.319 new world from the ashes of the old episode. And 0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:45.719 in order to talk about doing that, we're talking to 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:48.960 Samantha Medina, who's an organizer for Donut Workers United and 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:51.920 also the Coalition of Independent Unions and Shineyid who is 0:49:51.920 --> 0:49:55.799 an organizer for the CiU and also the IWW And yeah, 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:57.120 both you two welcome to the show. 0:49:57.520 --> 0:49:59.560 Hey, thanks for having us, good to be on. 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:02.680 Great to talk to both of you. And so the 0:50:02.719 --> 0:50:06.320 specific thing that Yeah, I wanted to talk about today 0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:09.680 is the Trans Day of Solidarity that is being organized 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:13.040 in Portland right now. And yeah, I wanted to I 0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:16.919 guess we should start with what is this event, who 0:50:16.960 --> 0:50:19.200 is doing it, and then we can get into why 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:20.080 it is being done. 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:25.120 Sure thing. So, the Trans Day of Solidarity is an 0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:28.279 event being put on right now by the Coalition of 0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:34.960 Independent Unions, and it's an event that's basically about both 0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:38.880 celebrating trans people in the labor movement and the worker's 0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:43.920 movement as a whole, highlighting the importance of workplace in 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:48.319 union organizing for trans communities as a way for us 0:50:48.360 --> 0:50:51.080 both to survive but also to struggle towards our own liberation. 0:50:51.680 --> 0:50:57.279 And finally, it's a way of it's a way of 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:02.360 sort of us clarifying how we can start using workplace 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:07.000 struggle as a means of turning the tide against the 0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:08.040 current genocide with this. 0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:11.839 Yeah, that covers most of it. I think the only 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:14.920 thing that I'd like to add is a lot of 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:18.840 what this event is around is bringing awareness to the 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:23.280 trans community and specifically our experience within the labor movement 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:26.879 and on the job. And it is a way, as 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:32.400 Shaneide mentioned, to kind of like highlight exactly what unions 0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.759 do and can do for trans people well at the 0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:40.280 same time also giving us a moment to remind unions 0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:43.480 that they should be doing more. Even if what they're 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.120 already doing is great, they could always do more, and 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:49.279 especially in a time right now where trans people are 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:55.000 facing the discriminations particular to us across this country right now, 0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:57.920 and as she mentioned, the world, but focusing on the 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:03.759 United States, it's really important that the avenues that are 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:07.040 there to protect us are aware of how to protect us. 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:09.600 So I think this is our opportunity to kind of 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:12.080 remind unions to step it up a little bit. 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:14.719 Yeah, And I mean, I think I think another thing 0:52:14.760 --> 0:52:18.439 that's kind of important about this in particular is yeah, 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:21.400 you know about bunch of YouTube are intimately aware of this, 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.680 but I don't know if overrepresented is the right term. 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:28.000 But like trans people, like literally right now in particular, 0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:32.160 are effectively the vanguard of new union organizing. They are 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:35.399 you know, enormously like quote unqule I guess, I guess 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:37.759 overrepresentati or whatever that's the word you want to use 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:41.120 in in you know, like among union organizers a lot 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.799 of actually and then this I think is you know, 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:46.200 another thing I'm excited about for this is that like 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:49.279 you all are kind of like at the forefront I 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.760 guess of like what the new sort of union organizing 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:55.600 stuff is and how it's how it's sort of you know, 0:52:55.680 --> 0:52:58.279 how how it's been working, and so like that the 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.399 fact that this is like the one place where there's 0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:03.000 actually a lot of us and that you know, is 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:05.320 a place where there's enough of us that it actually 0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:09.279 matters is important and that you know that that works 0:53:09.280 --> 0:53:10.759 in a lot of directions at the same At the 0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:11.560 same time. 0:53:12.360 --> 0:53:16.520 Yeah, I mean, I think it's good to acknowledge that, like, yeah, 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.160 there are a lot of trans people that are organizing 0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:21.600 their workplaces. There's a lot of trans people taking part 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.640 in their unions, and you know, a lot of that 0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:26.600 I think comes out of necessity, like if we're not 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:31.600 there to discuss our needs with these unions or to 0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:34.560 create our own unions at a necessity where like maybe 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:38.439 our CIS coworkers don't understand the struggle that we face 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:40.479 on the shop floor, so by reminding them, we're able 0:53:40.480 --> 0:53:42.799 to make it better. You know, Like all that's great 0:53:42.840 --> 0:53:44.640 and true and everything, but I think it's also really 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:49.040 good to acknowledge that like LGBTQ people in general, whether 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:55.640 they just be trands or otherwise, have been organizing and 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:59.799 organizing their workplaces for decades now. So I think a 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:01.520 lot of this like, yeah, we're seeing a lot more 0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:03.879 trans people involved, but we're also seeing a lot more 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:07.680 recognition and visibility of trans people than ever. 0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:10.520 Bookedore right, well, and part of the reason we're so 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:13.680 involved is because it's a matter of basic survival. Right. 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:18.680 The average trans masculine and non binary person make about 0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:22.600 seventy percent of the media and US wages, whereas transpendent 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:27.480 people make sixty percent. And this is below like compared 0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:31.640 to SIS people. You know, that's that's wild, right. The 0:54:31.760 --> 0:54:37.520 level of homelessness of discrimination of job, loss of hours 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:40.480 being reduced, punishment of sexual harassment on the job is 0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:44.560 just you know, it's it's unconscionable and it always has been. 0:54:44.600 --> 0:54:47.960 Even in the good days. It was garbage and miserable 0:54:48.040 --> 0:54:51.239 and honestly took a lot of us out. 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:54.000 Yeah, And I mean, you know, like part of part 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:55.440 of the thing with that RUND is like that all 0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:58.520 of that has knock on effects, right, you know, if 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:00.480 you can't get a job and the job you can 0:55:00.560 --> 0:55:03.600 get pay less. A lot of this forces people, you know, 0:55:03.760 --> 0:55:06.640 like the rate of homelessness is unbelievably hot. People get 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.359 evicted constantly, and this, you know, this, this, this all 0:55:09.400 --> 0:55:12.760 this ties together with sort of like transhousing struggles, because 0:55:12.880 --> 0:55:17.560 that's a huge thing. And yeah, the conferences, this is like, yeah, 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:19.000 a lot of a lot more of us end up dead. 0:55:19.080 --> 0:55:21.319 And the way that we don't end up dead is 0:55:21.360 --> 0:55:23.520 by fight. Is by fighting in one of the places 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:26.200 that you know, like one of the places we've gotten 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:27.960 good at is fighting in the workplace. 0:55:29.000 --> 0:55:31.279 Absolutely, And I like, I mean, I'm talking from my 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:34.560 own experiences, you know, as an organizer and as an 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:39.640 IWW member for god seventeen years now, Like wow, yeah, 0:55:39.760 --> 0:55:42.000 it's like I think about all the major campaigns that 0:55:42.000 --> 0:55:45.040 I've seen, and all of them, all of them have 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:48.400 had trans people at as core organizers for each and 0:55:48.440 --> 0:55:52.880 every shop, from the Canvasser's strikes to Burgerville to a 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:57.320 number of like fast food shops and service sector shops 0:55:57.320 --> 0:56:03.800 and retail shops. Like every single time, there are folks 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.280 that are are trends that are playing key rules. Which 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:11.600 is given that we're what probably between two and four 0:56:11.600 --> 0:56:14.480 percent of the population at least, uh, you know, at 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:17.120 least according to current testaments, probably gonna be higher, but 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:21.520 you know that's shouldn't be possible. 0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:23.160 Yes, that is shocked. 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:25.600 It makes no sense except for the fact that well, 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:28.680 survivability bias. Motherfuckers, it's this or we're dead. 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:36.920 Yeah, like very well, no, no, no, it's I mean 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:39.440 that is the blatant truth, right, And I mean, like 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:41.799 even if we're not talking about life and death, I mean, 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:43.560 it's the difference of whether we have access to a 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:49.640 bathroom to use, you know, yeah, like you know, like yes, 0:56:49.719 --> 0:56:52.239 of course this is also about life and death. But like, 0:56:52.360 --> 0:56:54.879 you know, I think another thing that trans people base 0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:57.479 a lot is like access to health care or really 0:56:57.680 --> 0:57:00.960 the lack thereof access to health care, and especially healthcare 0:57:01.000 --> 0:57:04.319 that will actually get us, you know, the medication that 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.000 we need to be on or the surgeries that we need, 0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:10.839 because again, these are issues that help with dysphoria, and 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:14.560 we all know the statistics on how dyspory affects people 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:17.840 of all ages, and that is again a matter of 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:21.000 life and death. So like, I don't think that's wrong 0:57:21.040 --> 0:57:22.560 to not sugarcoat that stag. 0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:25.800 Yeah, right, And there's another side to it too, is that, like, 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:27.880 this is also a point of community. This is a 0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:32.160 point of actually like folks from you know, it's meeting 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:34.280 up with other trans folks, but it's also like working 0:57:34.280 --> 0:57:37.120 together with others like with CIS coworkers and friends. Right, 0:57:37.480 --> 0:57:40.680 this is a point of belonging and togetherness and of 0:57:40.720 --> 0:57:43.840 being able to really be there for your neighbors and 0:57:43.880 --> 0:57:48.440 your friends and your coworkers in ways that like and 0:57:48.480 --> 0:57:50.640 to be a part of community, which is something that 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:54.800 is often strict of us. Right. Yes, it's about survival 0:57:54.960 --> 0:57:57.080 and it's about what we need to do in order 0:57:57.120 --> 0:57:59.440 to keep breathing, but it's also about we need to 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:02.600 do to live, you know, to go beyond survival, to 0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:06.000 have joy, and to have enough money to make it through, 0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:09.120 and you know, maybe people to actually have something for ourselves, 0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:12.160 maybe be able to not have the constant anxiety but 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:16.880 instead spend more time being happy about who we are. 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:25.840 Ceacy to overlook that. But again biased sample source, but 0:58:26.120 --> 0:58:29.800 almost all my fondest memories are from being side by 0:58:29.800 --> 0:58:31.440 side with my fellow workers. 0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:34.680 Right absolutely. And I think also, you know, like time's 0:58:34.720 --> 0:58:37.640 gone long enough now where you know, trans people are 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:39.880 starting to be something that people are aware of, something 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:42.800 people are talking about. Whether that's in the best ways 0:58:43.000 --> 0:58:47.120 or not, We're at least more than we've been. And 0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:52.560 I you know, I think like organizing in general, community 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:57.200 in general, whether that's you know community, uh, within the 0:58:57.240 --> 0:58:59.680 city you live in or within your workplace. You know, 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:04.600 like a lot of our success at being able to 0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:07.680 live the lives that we want to have, or be 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:11.120 the people that we want to be and be respected 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:14.440 for that really does come down to our family members, 0:59:14.840 --> 0:59:21.120 our co workers, our friends, and ultimately complete strangers who 0:59:22.560 --> 0:59:23.600 we need to rely on. 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:24.240 You know, I. 0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:28.280 Hate to use the word ally, but we need our 0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:32.000 allies more than ever and it's about time that they 0:59:32.040 --> 0:59:36.439 step up to and that starts typically speaking in your 0:59:36.440 --> 0:59:39.800 community and in your workplace. I think it's also really 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:42.320 good to address the fact that, like, you know, when 0:59:42.320 --> 0:59:45.800 we're talking about trans issues and organizing around them and 0:59:45.880 --> 0:59:48.480 like organizing workplace in your community and all that, Like, 0:59:48.680 --> 0:59:53.360 it's it's also important to acknowledge how intersectional the trans experiences. 0:59:53.440 --> 0:59:55.720 And that's something I really wanted to stry to we 0:59:56.320 --> 1:00:00.120 got talking about specifically about unions and things like that, 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:05.080 because also unions are an incredibly intersectional piece of politics 1:00:05.520 --> 1:00:08.920 and life that we need to appreciate. Because when we 1:00:09.000 --> 1:00:15.120 talked about these statistics affecting trans people, they affect disabled 1:00:15.120 --> 1:00:19.800 trans people and black and brown trans people at much 1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:25.280 much more much higrates then they affect white trans people. 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:28.840 And I think that unions being something and not just unions, 1:00:28.880 --> 1:00:33.000 I mean every aspect of organizing and community building really 1:00:33.040 --> 1:00:34.720 needs to pay attention to this. But I think this 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:40.000 is something that is so ingrained in unions that unions 1:00:40.040 --> 1:00:44.720 have been fighting for this sort of protections that are 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:50.080 very intersectional, you know, like whether they're protecting women in 1:00:50.080 --> 1:00:53.360 the workplace, whether they're protecting black and brown people, whether 1:00:53.360 --> 1:00:57.040 they're protecting disabled people, or whether they're protecting trans people. 1:00:57.160 --> 1:01:00.920 That is a large part of why you unions were established. 1:01:00.920 --> 1:01:03.200 You know, we talked about wages and working hours a lot, 1:01:03.400 --> 1:01:05.480 and that is all fine and dandy, and it's wonderful, 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:09.320 and that's something that is a base core value of unions. 1:01:09.680 --> 1:01:13.040 But I don't think it's celebrated enough how much work 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:17.520 unions did in equality in this country. And I think 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:20.800 this is just a continuation of that tradition. And trans 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:23.400 people just happen to be one of the largest topics 1:01:23.480 --> 1:01:25.360 right now, and we tend to have one of the 1:01:25.440 --> 1:01:29.160 largest targets on our back, more than we've ever had before. 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:34.080 And so yeah, I think that's why we discussed unions 1:01:34.160 --> 1:01:38.840 in relation to this, because for you know, working class folk, 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:41.440 that's where a lot of our organizing begins. 1:01:43.960 --> 1:01:46.200 Yeah, and I think I think it's actually honest, it's 1:01:46.240 --> 1:01:50.520 had an interesting impacts on the kind of union organizing 1:01:50.560 --> 1:01:53.800 as happening because you know, like one of one of 1:01:53.840 --> 1:01:59.800 the sort of consequences of transferbient discrimination in workplaces is 1:01:59.840 --> 1:02:03.240 that you get a lot of trans people in what 1:02:03.400 --> 1:02:07.160 is okay, I refuse to call it service sector. I'm 1:02:07.160 --> 1:02:09.320 gonna there's gonna be a whole episode that's been yelling 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:11.960 about the sort of service sector that's coming to a 1:02:12.240 --> 1:02:15.720 recording thing near you, specifically like job jobs and fast 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:20.959 food jobs that are very low wage, like high turnover things, 1:02:21.000 --> 1:02:23.040 and particularly fast Who's been a very interesting because that's 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:26.240 a that's a sector that like a lot of trade 1:02:26.320 --> 1:02:29.920 unions just completely ignored, like they just gave up on 1:02:30.320 --> 1:02:32.000 and you know, like they've been starting to organize like 1:02:32.000 --> 1:02:35.160 Starbucks in the past few years, right, but like you know, 1:02:35.680 --> 1:02:37.680 like if you want to look at the people who've 1:02:37.680 --> 1:02:40.000 actually been trying to organize fast food workers, it turns 1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:43.160 out it's a bunch of trans people because because because 1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:45.200 who works, because who actually does this stuff? 1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:45.440 Right? 1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:52.240 Turns out turns out, Yeah, there's. 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:54.800 A lot to be said about that, Like with larger unions, 1:02:54.840 --> 1:02:58.360 and larger unions, especially within the trades, have done a 1:02:58.360 --> 1:03:00.600 lot of great work, you know, and that's lovely and 1:03:00.800 --> 1:03:02.800 I appreciate them for that. But on the other hand, 1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:05.120 they really did turn their back on the service sector 1:03:05.160 --> 1:03:08.760 industry for the silliest reason possible, which is that high 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:12.640 turnover is just too difficult and we want to talk 1:03:12.680 --> 1:03:15.720 about people, Yeah, it's just too difficult, you know, who 1:03:15.760 --> 1:03:22.000 wants to organize something difficult, right, like that might cost 1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:24.800 too much money or not make them enough money, and 1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:28.480 which I find highly hypocritical of unions in general. I mean, 1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:30.600 like not of all unions, but like if that is 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:33.120 a stance that unions will take to not organize the 1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:36.480 service industry, being a union seems to be exactly why 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:38.680 you would target those industries, right, because those are where 1:03:38.720 --> 1:03:41.720 workers need it most. And if we want to talk 1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:44.960 about high turnover rates being the reason, who do we 1:03:45.040 --> 1:03:49.040 think is affected the most by high turnover rates? You know, 1:03:49.640 --> 1:03:52.360 like it is hard to find a job as a 1:03:52.360 --> 1:03:57.040 trans person, let alone keep a job for any length 1:03:57.080 --> 1:04:01.160 of time. There's oftentimes no upward mobility for trans people 1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:04.640 in that job, and so you pace a variety of 1:04:04.680 --> 1:04:07.520 life issues when you're not making enough money, which inevitably 1:04:07.640 --> 1:04:10.760 leads to you losing your job and adding to the 1:04:10.800 --> 1:04:13.919 high turnover rates in these companies. This is exactly why, 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:15.800 And we can get into you know, what we've been 1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:17.960 up to and what we're doing later, but that's exactly 1:04:18.000 --> 1:04:22.200 why the CiU and the IWW and other organizations like 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:24.760 us do what we do, is because we believe in 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:28.520 helping the workers that need it most, who are underrepresented 1:04:28.600 --> 1:04:31.840 and not taken care of by the larger units. 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:34.120 Because we are those workers, right, I mean, that is 1:04:34.160 --> 1:04:36.640 the thing. We're able to do this and put you know, 1:04:36.720 --> 1:04:39.520 I mean, we'll put the fucking hours in because that's us. 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:44.240 We're doing this because it's the only way out. Right. So, 1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:46.840 like when we schedule something like or like create an 1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:51.760 event like the Trans Day of Solidarity, we're doing this 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:56.760 because both on the backbone of years of experience, but 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:01.080 especially like collectively but also bringing in new organizers because 1:05:01.680 --> 1:05:03.680 we knew how. We can think back to how we 1:05:03.680 --> 1:05:06.840 were brought in, right, we can talk think back to 1:05:06.920 --> 1:05:09.800 our friends, our allies, and our especially our transfellow workers 1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:14.440 who were the ones who mentored us well before the 1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:18.080 tipping point in a lot of cases, right, because this 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:21.560 is why we're here. And like thinking about who this affects, right, 1:05:21.600 --> 1:05:27.280 I mean, like, it affects trans people deeply, and it 1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:29.439 can cut off our access to the healthcare that many 1:05:29.480 --> 1:05:31.800 but not all of us very much need to keep going. 1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:35.280 And the threats above us, you know, only increase as 1:05:35.320 --> 1:05:39.080 the like you know, the oppressions you face are are increasing. Right, 1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:41.040 if you're a transpression of color, if you're disabled, like 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:45.400 you were saying, right, like shit gets worse, it gets harder, 1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:51.080 the sword over your head dangles a little closer, so 1:05:51.440 --> 1:05:53.160 we work to figure a way to get out from 1:05:53.200 --> 1:05:59.160 under it. But it's also like why the Transitay of Solidarity, 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:00.920 Like when we talk about it, it's it's an event 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:04.920 that that is what it is because it's designed to 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:07.360 not simply be us just speaking into the wind, but 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:10.160 it's meant to be a practical thing. Right. The the 1:06:10.200 --> 1:06:13.160 whole event itself is is like a rally with you know, 1:06:13.200 --> 1:06:16.960 trans speakers from you know a number of different shops 1:06:16.960 --> 1:06:20.760 and unions in town. But it's also then just quickly 1:06:20.800 --> 1:06:23.640 becomes just a flying picket, right, And this is a 1:06:23.680 --> 1:06:26.040 tradition that I think we do miss a little bit 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:28.640 in this country. The flying picket's an old one and 1:06:28.640 --> 1:06:31.920 it's a it's a fucking goldie. It's where you get 1:06:31.920 --> 1:06:34.720 a big old mob of people and you just start 1:06:34.960 --> 1:06:38.760 going to places all over your town and throwing fucking pickets. 1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:43.120 It's everything you love about a breakaway march and also 1:06:43.280 --> 1:06:47.360 a picket. At the same time, it has direct economic 1:06:47.480 --> 1:06:52.680 leverage to it. You can do you know, people, It's 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:55.440 it took a minute. But and you know this is 1:06:55.440 --> 1:06:57.720 also coming from someone who's organized in premierly in Portland, 1:06:57.760 --> 1:07:00.560 so there's a certain bias here. Your locale may vary, 1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:03.520 but if you organize enough pickets in your city, people 1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:06.480 might cross them at first, they get a lot less 1:07:06.560 --> 1:07:08.680 likely to the more you do them over the years. 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:12.120 So the more pickets to throw, the less likely people 1:07:12.160 --> 1:07:13.760 are to cross them. And if they are not likely 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:16.880 to cross them, that impact that you know, increases their impact. 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:20.800 So you know we're gonna be given our speech, is sure, 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:23.200 and we are going to speak to our experiences. That's critical. 1:07:23.960 --> 1:07:25.800 And then we're also going to ruin some people's day 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:27.760 or you know, make their day if you're the. 1:07:27.720 --> 1:07:33.440 Workers, Yeah, ruin some bosses day exactly, just always the 1:07:33.440 --> 1:07:38.880 best kind of day. 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:43.400 Well, it's also part of the reason, listen, should bosses 1:07:43.440 --> 1:07:45.240 have good days? I'm going to go on a limb 1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:51.760 and say no never ever ever you want to, yeah, 1:07:51.960 --> 1:07:55.200 damn straight. At the bare minimum, you get at least 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:56.880 one less good day than us. 1:07:57.560 --> 1:07:59.720 And you know what, you know what if the bosses 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:02.800 don't like having these bad days, then they can just 1:08:02.840 --> 1:08:08.040 go find another job. Yes, exactly, it's not that same deal. 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:13.960 Right, they can actually contribute to their communities, you know, 1:08:14.040 --> 1:08:16.680 do some real work for a change, which in this 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:19.519 case is sometimes just working a fucking till. 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:27.559 That's okay, speaking speaking of things that suck, we need 1:08:27.560 --> 1:08:30.439 to take an ad break. This is the best ad 1:08:30.439 --> 1:08:32.200 pivot I've been able I've been able to think of 1:08:32.240 --> 1:08:35.519 in the last like six minutes. So we're taking it 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:38.880 right now. Now, we're going to get this good again 1:08:40.840 --> 1:08:43.479 and we're back. So one of one of the things 1:08:43.479 --> 1:08:48.240 that I also wanted to talk about is about I 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:51.080 guess just talking a bit about what the Coalition of 1:08:51.080 --> 1:08:56.320 Independent Unions is and how it's sort of formed, and yeah, 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:59.080 I don't know the sort of potentials they're in because 1:08:59.080 --> 1:09:03.640 it's it's a really interesting organization coalition. 1:09:03.880 --> 1:09:11.080 Yeah, absolutely, So the CiU, it's got a long history 1:09:11.080 --> 1:09:14.080 if we really dig deep into it. I mean, effectively, 1:09:14.360 --> 1:09:20.280 this idea started after organizing within Portland for the last gosh, 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:23.400 I think people may people have been organizing here forever. 1:09:23.479 --> 1:09:27.040 But let's say, how long ago did Burgerville Workers Union start, Shanaan. 1:09:28.479 --> 1:09:32.720 Let's see. We there's that's a question. If you want 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:36.000 to talk about the official date we went public Shore 1:09:36.080 --> 1:09:38.720 twenty sixteen. If you want to talk about the antecedents, 1:09:38.800 --> 1:09:46.880 you'll find it in the Industrial Research Organizing Group Precarious Workplace. No, 1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:51.959 it is Low Wage Workers Subcommittee the Portland General Membership 1:09:51.960 --> 1:09:55.200 Branch of the IWW circa August of twenty thirteen. 1:09:55.360 --> 1:09:58.479 Incredible, way the way Still you're welcome. 1:09:58.520 --> 1:10:01.479 Yeah, Oh, money, money, I'm do you know how many 1:10:01.560 --> 1:10:02.880 fucking acronyms do we have? 1:10:03.080 --> 1:10:03.360 Oh? 1:10:03.439 --> 1:10:05.559 My god, listen the number of things I had to 1:10:05.560 --> 1:10:08.000 take the GMB when I was BST, despite not actually 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:09.840 being the tea part of the BST, the only tea 1:10:09.880 --> 1:10:12.280 part I'm not part of. Oh. I could tell you 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:14.800 about the GOB and the GEB until the cows come home. 1:10:14.840 --> 1:10:19.439 But the point is they're antecedents. The CiU is a 1:10:19.479 --> 1:10:24.920 relatively new organization with deep roots in Portland. It kind 1:10:24.960 --> 1:10:28.000 of came out of the flurry of independent unions that 1:10:28.080 --> 1:10:33.120 kind of in fast food service and retail that flourished 1:10:33.200 --> 1:10:38.280 in the wake of the Burgerville Workers Union. Burgerville Workers 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:42.080 Union itself goes public in God, that was April of 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:44.519 twenty sixteen, Because of course it's been that fucking long. 1:10:44.960 --> 1:10:50.759 It was in the works a while before that. God, 1:10:51.400 --> 1:10:59.479 all those meetings. The earliest antecedents are arguably the Portland 1:10:59.600 --> 1:11:04.599 General Biership branch of the IWW's Industrial Organizing Research Group, 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:11.960 the Precarious Worker Subgroup, or maybe it was a little 1:11:11.960 --> 1:11:18.000 wage Workers subgroup August of thirteen, But that's Antasus, right, 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:21.960 this kind of goes public. This itself is built on, 1:11:22.160 --> 1:11:24.680 you know, the Jimmy Johns Workers Union, especially for on 1:11:24.720 --> 1:11:29.360 the Twin Cities, and earlier in the two thousands, and 1:11:29.400 --> 1:11:33.559 then of course before that, the Starbucks Workers Union that 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:37.040 had multiple different campaign flourishings. I think the earliest in 1:11:37.080 --> 1:11:41.000 the late nineties early aughts in New York City on 1:11:41.160 --> 1:11:44.400 which honestly you'll see some articles mention this on which 1:11:44.439 --> 1:11:48.400 the foundations of the modern Starbucks Workers United now rests. 1:11:50.080 --> 1:11:52.040 So what we've seen now in the wake of all 1:11:52.080 --> 1:11:55.519 of this shit, right, is you have an incredibly militant 1:11:55.520 --> 1:12:01.200 working class coming forward and they aren't popping off. They're 1:12:01.240 --> 1:12:05.000 not waiting for permission from any org to just start 1:12:05.320 --> 1:12:09.599 fucking organizing their workplace, sometimes filing for for union elections, 1:12:09.640 --> 1:12:12.960 sometimes not the ones that have been filing for contracts. 1:12:13.040 --> 1:12:17.240 There are, I have complicated feelings, but there are real gains. 1:12:17.240 --> 1:12:19.200 You can make from contracts right that it is a 1:12:19.240 --> 1:12:23.120 lot easier to get certain victories than you can and others. 1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:27.280 Now there's also limitations, right, But the CiU comes from 1:12:28.200 --> 1:12:33.160 a number of different unions coming together, you know, don't 1:12:33.200 --> 1:12:38.400 work as united a few others to basically like actually 1:12:38.640 --> 1:12:43.200 preserve you know, democracy in their workplace, to pool resources 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:49.200 around you know, trainings around contract bargaining and elections, as 1:12:49.240 --> 1:12:51.599 well as to rely on each other for direct for 1:12:51.720 --> 1:12:54.720 direct action assistance and things like that. And you know, 1:12:54.840 --> 1:12:58.280 the the IWW has also got a thread in all 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:01.200 of this. But yeah, it's it's essentially of like, you know, 1:13:01.800 --> 1:13:05.120 we're not trying to own everything, right. The CiU exists 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:10.799 as a platform for all the different types of independent 1:13:10.880 --> 1:13:13.880 union activity that are occurring, right, and to create a 1:13:14.000 --> 1:13:16.040 base on which we can actually start talking to each 1:13:16.040 --> 1:13:19.360 other more, to cooperate and interact with each other. Right. 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:23.519 There is more of a contract focus in the CiU. So, 1:13:23.640 --> 1:13:26.679 you know, I'm a wob with experience in duel carding. 1:13:26.760 --> 1:13:28.720 You know, you have your contract union on the one hand, 1:13:28.760 --> 1:13:32.120 and you're fighting union on the other. And this allows 1:13:32.200 --> 1:13:36.160 folks to sort of approach union organizing and labor organizing 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:40.400 from any level of experience and any number of backgrounds. 1:13:40.439 --> 1:13:40.639 Right. 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:42.920 I think that's the real strength of the CiU is 1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:47.000 not to instead to constrain the upswell of worker miltancy, 1:13:47.000 --> 1:13:49.200 but instead to give it a place to help put 1:13:49.240 --> 1:13:53.519 down some roots while also allowing even more militant struggle 1:13:53.600 --> 1:13:57.920 to intertwine within those growths. 1:13:58.479 --> 1:14:00.519 So I think that's a really great explanation the CiU 1:14:00.560 --> 1:14:03.639 and how the CiU formed, and the purpose that the 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:08.559 CiU provides two workers all. I mean, so far, the 1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:11.720 CiU is growing rapidly. We've been talking with a lot 1:14:11.760 --> 1:14:17.120 of workers, and primarily in Oregon and in Portland, but 1:14:17.320 --> 1:14:22.200 even workers outside of that purview. And I have a 1:14:22.240 --> 1:14:24.360 lot of hope that the CiU is going to be 1:14:24.400 --> 1:14:29.919 able to help unionization in a way that other unions 1:14:29.960 --> 1:14:33.240 are not willing to at the moment or having difficulty 1:14:33.280 --> 1:14:37.600 breaking into. And so far, so good. I mean, I 1:14:37.640 --> 1:14:42.080 think we have gosh, I think there's like at least 1:14:42.439 --> 1:14:44.000 trying to do the math right now in my head. 1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:46.000 I do lose count sometimes, but I think we got 1:14:46.000 --> 1:14:52.200 about six different shops involved in the CiU currently, six 1:14:52.280 --> 1:14:56.880 including my own exactly six week up shops including. 1:14:56.439 --> 1:15:01.360 My own no, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, Oh honey, there's 1:15:01.439 --> 1:15:02.559 so much more to come. 1:15:02.880 --> 1:15:04.320 There's so much to come. 1:15:05.360 --> 1:15:10.519 Oh, they're going to learn why we picked this city, all. 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:14.880 Right, crows. 1:15:16.240 --> 1:15:18.800 But it's going really well, and we have a lot 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:21.240 more campaigns that are going to go public in the future. 1:15:22.080 --> 1:15:24.439 But one thing that we really noticed while organizing all 1:15:24.479 --> 1:15:29.120 of these campaigns, and you know, whether we ourselves organize 1:15:29.120 --> 1:15:31.599 them or whether we had a hand in assisting them 1:15:31.680 --> 1:15:35.400 organize themselves throughout the city, one thing that all of us, 1:15:35.479 --> 1:15:41.000 various organizers started to realize is that we represent a 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:44.400 large amount of trans folks at all these jobs. And 1:15:44.439 --> 1:15:45.800 now some of that could be chalked up to the 1:15:45.840 --> 1:15:48.320 fact that we live in Portland and we kind of 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:50.200 live in the trans mecca, so of course you're going 1:15:50.280 --> 1:15:52.719 to come across a lot of trans workers. But here's 1:15:52.760 --> 1:15:54.679 the deal that we kind of noticed is that trans 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:58.360 workers regardless of living in Portland, Oregon or you know, 1:15:58.560 --> 1:16:00.519 the fact that we have so many trans people living 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:03.640 here for a lot of reasons. I won't get into that. 1:16:03.640 --> 1:16:04.920 We all know, which is why we moved here in 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:05.479 the first place. 1:16:06.520 --> 1:16:09.559 Refugees were Let's be real, let's run away refugees. 1:16:10.080 --> 1:16:14.040 Yeah, but we noticed that there's a lot of trans 1:16:14.040 --> 1:16:20.200 workers working, as you reluctantly put it earlier, service industry jobs, 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:23.400 and not just service industry jobs, a variety of jobs, 1:16:23.400 --> 1:16:27.639 but most of which are you know, minimum wage, poverty wage, 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:32.000 let's be honest, jobs that offer almost zero upward mobility 1:16:32.000 --> 1:16:33.720 for trans folks. And so that's the thing that we 1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:36.400 started looking at is the ladder, and as you go 1:16:36.520 --> 1:16:38.960 up the ladder, you see less and less and less 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:42.640 trans folks. So down here at the bottom working, you know, 1:16:42.880 --> 1:16:47.640 fast food jobs, working, sweaty donut jobs, working, you know, 1:16:48.640 --> 1:16:51.320 in I mean the restaurant industry as a whole, I 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:55.519 think is a lot of we assist as well as 1:16:56.080 --> 1:16:59.679 you know, potentially some grocery store workers and other people 1:16:59.720 --> 1:17:06.800 like that. We don't have a whole lot of representation 1:17:07.240 --> 1:17:09.680 in our workplaces that we make up, you know. I mean, 1:17:10.040 --> 1:17:12.160 we can look at some of the larger industries in 1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:15.479 town that do provide unionization for workers, and there's many, 1:17:15.600 --> 1:17:17.400 but you know, I think it's easy to look at 1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:19.920 like a lot of the auto industry or the warehouse 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:21.960 industries and things like that, and of course they have 1:17:22.160 --> 1:17:25.479 trans workers, but it's an overwhelming amount working within the 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:29.040 service industry, and so as we started organizing more and 1:17:29.120 --> 1:17:32.160 more service industry shops, we started realizing that we are 1:17:32.160 --> 1:17:35.679 representing a lot of trans people. And what's really important 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:37.320 to us is that if we're going to be representing 1:17:37.360 --> 1:17:39.519 trans people in the workplace, then we should give them 1:17:39.520 --> 1:17:41.759 a platform and a voice to be able to speak 1:17:41.800 --> 1:17:45.559 about their concerns and their issues that they haven't otherwise had. 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:50.759 And that's why the CiU decided to put on this action, 1:17:51.040 --> 1:17:53.920 you know, and we chose it when we chose it 1:17:53.920 --> 1:17:56.040 for a very particular reason, and to be honest, we 1:17:56.080 --> 1:17:58.639 thought about doing it over Pride weekend, and I think 1:17:58.640 --> 1:18:00.800 that would have been lovely. But on the other hand, 1:18:00.960 --> 1:18:05.840 you know, Pride is about a celebration of existence, and 1:18:05.880 --> 1:18:08.920 there's a lot of visibility during Pride already, so we 1:18:09.000 --> 1:18:10.880 kind of step back. We reflected on that for a 1:18:10.920 --> 1:18:14.559 little bit, and we decided that Labor Day is not 1:18:14.760 --> 1:18:18.360 exactly a time of year where you hear about people 1:18:18.439 --> 1:18:21.680 talking about LGBTP rights and trans rights. I mean, of 1:18:21.720 --> 1:18:23.400 course there's a little bit of that going on, I'm 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:26.080 not sure and to say that there's none, but it 1:18:26.160 --> 1:18:28.840 seems like a really great opportunity for us to host 1:18:28.880 --> 1:18:33.799 this event over Labor Day week and give trans workers, 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:38.000 the working class an actual platform and a voice to 1:18:38.120 --> 1:18:41.680 express their concerns issues and give their thanks. At the 1:18:41.720 --> 1:18:44.880 same time to the unions who represent them and like 1:18:44.920 --> 1:18:47.680 I said before, it could represent them even better. So 1:18:47.720 --> 1:18:49.960 this is our way for reminding them and also at 1:18:49.960 --> 1:18:55.800 the same time to follow up picket reminding Portland that 1:18:55.920 --> 1:19:01.520 if you don't take care of your community and specifically 1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:06.000 in this case, or trans working class community, then we 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:09.559 will make ourselves heard and you will listen to us 1:19:09.840 --> 1:19:12.400 one way or another. And if we have to take 1:19:12.439 --> 1:19:14.840 to the streets in order to have our voice heard, 1:19:15.680 --> 1:19:18.040 we are more than happy to do that. 1:19:18.960 --> 1:19:23.960 Read the promise, black the threat. That's an old slogan, 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:25.799 but again it's when we really need to bring. 1:19:25.680 --> 1:19:29.320 Back and city birds. City birds are very important all this, 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:31.720 but I know nothing is. 1:19:31.720 --> 1:19:37.400 More important, but listen, listen, We're in Portland. The obligatory 1:19:37.439 --> 1:19:41.280 crow conversation is just part of the bargain. The Liberty 1:19:41.320 --> 1:19:45.080 weekend tends to be very important because this has been 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:50.519 a lot of retail and food and entertainment business happens, 1:19:51.080 --> 1:19:55.799 and frankly, given you know, the whole genocide. We decided 1:19:55.840 --> 1:19:58.479 we were going to help, you know, show the power 1:19:58.520 --> 1:20:01.240 of organized labor by bring up of a wrench into that, right, 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:04.439 So why we chose Labor Day getting into sort of 1:20:04.479 --> 1:20:08.000 like what the Trans Day of Solidarity is. We're going 1:20:08.080 --> 1:20:14.040 to be having a speaker and rally at four pm 1:20:14.080 --> 1:20:18.719 at Pioneer Square in Portland, Oregon on Saturday, September second. 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:24.160 This is a huge, huge weekend for food service or 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:29.840 entertainment and yeah, for retail. And while we're having trans 1:20:29.840 --> 1:20:31.639 speakers from a number of different campaigns and you can 1:20:31.720 --> 1:20:35.400 speak from four to you know, wrapping up at around five, 1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:39.880 We're then going to start moving on a mobile picket line, 1:20:39.880 --> 1:20:44.559 a flying picket all over downtown Portland because we need 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:47.599 to bring joy to a lot of workers and we're 1:20:47.640 --> 1:20:51.599 ruin a lot of bosses' days. This is leverage and 1:20:51.640 --> 1:20:54.640 we'll use it. We'll just cost them as many, you know, 1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:57.519 as much money as we possibly can. We'll be hitting 1:20:57.520 --> 1:20:59.360 a number of different stores. It looks like we'll be 1:20:59.439 --> 1:21:04.640 hitting well you'll see it the march, but we'll be 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:08.160 going all over the city. We have everything covered in 1:21:08.240 --> 1:21:12.320 terms of needs and amenities, there's going to be chants 1:21:12.640 --> 1:21:17.719 and leaflets, there'll be medics a plenty, they'll be all 1:21:17.760 --> 1:21:22.679 sorts of safety concerns will be addressed by or organizers 1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:27.000 on the ground. So please come, one, come all. We 1:21:27.080 --> 1:21:30.479 actually should have a marching band that'll be pretty fun 1:21:31.240 --> 1:21:32.840 that I didn't expect to land up. It'll be a 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:34.680 Union marching band, no less. 1:21:34.400 --> 1:21:37.360 Nice, nice. I love to see it. 1:21:37.360 --> 1:21:42.320 It's gonna be pretty great. So if you like trans 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:46.200 people and making bosses cry, you should come to this. 1:21:47.080 --> 1:21:48.320 What time if we do? 1:21:48.400 --> 1:21:54.400 This is starting again four pm the at Pioneer Square 1:21:54.680 --> 1:21:58.800 in downtown Portland, and then we'll be doing the march 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:00.919 throughout the city from row five o'clock. 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:05.920 And I do recommend that folks wanting to come out 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:11.280 to the event be ready to chant, bring your walking 1:22:11.400 --> 1:22:14.040 shoes because we have a bit of a trek ahead 1:22:14.040 --> 1:22:19.800 of us making bosses miserable across town. And uh, make 1:22:19.880 --> 1:22:23.479 some signage, bring, bring picket signs, bring you know in 1:22:23.600 --> 1:22:27.759 in picket signs and support of both trans people, uh, 1:22:28.280 --> 1:22:34.120 working class folks, union workers, or just reminding bosses to 1:22:34.120 --> 1:22:36.800 stop being ship heads. Whatever you want to put on 1:22:36.840 --> 1:22:41.280 your sign, it's lovely. I will give you a hint 1:22:42.000 --> 1:22:45.080 as to one of the locations that we will be picketing. 1:22:45.400 --> 1:22:47.120 And I think it's okay for me to mention this, 1:22:47.880 --> 1:22:51.360 but you know, well, we'll make sure to picket the 1:22:51.400 --> 1:23:03.000 world's worst tourist trap also one of the absolute one 1:23:03.000 --> 1:23:04.760 of the absolute most difficult. 1:23:05.479 --> 1:23:05.599 Uh. 1:23:05.840 --> 1:23:09.160 You can't struggle that I've ever been a part of 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:12.840 only being one so far particularly, but you know it 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:15.599 really irks me. So anyways, if you're interested in that, 1:23:16.040 --> 1:23:20.559 come on down and you can see the World's Worst 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:22.120 turns trap on your way. 1:23:23.360 --> 1:23:25.400 And for people who are not in Portland, I do 1:23:25.479 --> 1:23:28.200 want to remind people it's it's probably not enough time 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:32.200 to do it this year, but you too, You too 1:23:32.400 --> 1:23:34.439 can have a trans Day of solidarity. You could also 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:37.639 have it on a different day. We can have one. 1:23:38.720 --> 1:23:42.000 If we planned this correctly, we could in fact have 1:23:42.160 --> 1:23:46.759 three hundred and sixty five days of trans of transolidarity. 1:23:47.000 --> 1:23:49.000 We could take all of the days. I don't know 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:51.600 this is people can have like the Leapier Day or 1:23:51.600 --> 1:23:54.559 something like that. We'll get ther. 1:23:56.760 --> 1:23:59.400 We already have May Day. It's called you know, there's 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:01.519 no need for us a labor day. I really feel 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:03.760 like if we keep doing this every year. We can 1:24:03.840 --> 1:24:04.599 just take it. 1:24:05.040 --> 1:24:06.559 Yeah, we can. We can get rid of fake every 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:10.880 day and make it based Labor Day again exactly. 1:24:10.960 --> 1:24:12.360 I mean it's trans Labor Day. 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:14.880 I mean, I don't know, that's a lot. I mean 1:24:14.960 --> 1:24:17.600 I'm only visible one day of the year, and I 1:24:17.640 --> 1:24:20.240 only remember things one day of the year. 1:24:21.160 --> 1:24:24.360 I don't know, I know, Okay, okay, okay, there's there's 1:24:24.400 --> 1:24:26.439 one day. We got one day of pride. There's like, 1:24:27.160 --> 1:24:29.920 isn't there like a bisexual visibility day or something? 1:24:30.400 --> 1:24:30.920 There is one? 1:24:31.000 --> 1:24:33.720 There is, Yes, bisexuals only appear for one day. 1:24:33.800 --> 1:24:35.880 It's at least three days, and we know a four 1:24:36.120 --> 1:24:39.320 right before. There's like two other trans ones. We we 1:24:39.439 --> 1:24:43.679 could possibly have a full five days that we were visit. 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:47.640 I'm just gonna put forward that, like listen, if you 1:24:47.760 --> 1:24:49.559 also want to, you know, and if you can get 1:24:49.600 --> 1:24:53.559 something together for Sunday, September third, we could just make 1:24:53.800 --> 1:24:57.080 trans Data Solidarity followed by trans Day of Wrath, you know, 1:24:57.120 --> 1:25:00.599 because if the picket line has to go too long, well, 1:25:01.160 --> 1:25:03.400 you know, we get mny ownery. 1:25:03.200 --> 1:25:05.840 Well and also okay, like I have been watching you 1:25:05.920 --> 1:25:08.719 all make up its wrath MONTHO, it's not enough Pride's 1:25:08.760 --> 1:25:11.040 wrath tipe jokes for too long and there has been 1:25:11.040 --> 1:25:15.120 not enough wrath. So I'm calling you for more wrath days. 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:17.040 We need to actually do the day. 1:25:18.760 --> 1:25:21.520 Absolutely. Oh so gonize your workplace. 1:25:22.560 --> 1:25:27.360 Oh, absolutely organize your workplace fine, you know, and if 1:25:27.400 --> 1:25:29.599 you find out that like the people that own your 1:25:29.640 --> 1:25:32.799 company are fascists or helping to fuel the genocide, organize 1:25:32.800 --> 1:25:33.439 even harder. 1:25:33.640 --> 1:25:35.960 Help get friends involved, have them try and get on 1:25:36.080 --> 1:25:39.360 jobs to help take those motherfuckers down. Remember, there's so 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:41.519 much you can do to cost the people that are 1:25:41.520 --> 1:25:44.559 trying to kill us a lot of money, well also 1:25:44.720 --> 1:25:46.799 making your lives so much better. 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:49.120 So do your part. 1:25:51.920 --> 1:25:54.280 Hope to see you all again, Well not again, I 1:25:54.360 --> 1:25:57.800 hope to see you all there and again. It's going 1:25:57.840 --> 1:26:05.200 to be September second, four pm Pioneer Square, downtown Portland, Oregon, 1:26:05.600 --> 1:26:10.799 and be there for the rally. Listen to people's voices. 1:26:10.920 --> 1:26:13.519 We are doing this for a reason. It's important that 1:26:13.560 --> 1:26:16.880 we give trans folks a platform and support us on 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:21.160 the picket line. We would really appreciate this other. Oh, 1:26:21.439 --> 1:26:23.920 you can also find a link to all this on 1:26:24.720 --> 1:26:29.920 the Coalition of Independent Union's Facebook page. We also have 1:26:29.960 --> 1:26:32.599 an Instagram. You can find us on just just type 1:26:32.600 --> 1:26:35.520 in Coalition of Independent Unions or CiU. 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:40.320 And you can find that in the decripsion Perfect. 1:26:39.960 --> 1:26:44.960 Perfect And if you need any more information, please feel 1:26:45.000 --> 1:26:46.920 free to hit up either of those accounts. I'm'd be 1:26:46.960 --> 1:26:48.880 happy to inform you on whatever you need. 1:26:49.360 --> 1:26:52.560 Yeah, I'm with that. Wishing everyone a happy Transda solidarity. 1:26:53.080 --> 1:26:59.840 If you're a boss, wishing you a bad Transda solarity. Yeah, 1:27:00.120 --> 1:27:04.120 and everyone, go go out into the world, make more 1:27:04.200 --> 1:27:06.920 trans day or stas of solidarity, make more bosses, sad, 1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:10.400 make workers happy. This is within your power to do. 1:27:10.800 --> 1:27:31.280 And yeah, go go into the world and make mischief. Hi. 1:27:31.320 --> 1:27:35.200 Everyone, it's me James today and I'm joined by Hulia 1:27:35.280 --> 1:27:40.320 Messner from Seawatch. She's one of the spokespeople for sea Watch. 1:27:40.520 --> 1:27:44.160 Sea Watch your organization at rescues Mediterranean rescues migrants in 1:27:44.200 --> 1:27:44.960 the Mediterranean. 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:47.800 Hud Hi, good morning, welcome. 1:27:48.360 --> 1:27:50.160 Hi, thank you so much for your invitation. 1:27:50.560 --> 1:27:53.360 Yeah, not good money for you. I guess could you 1:27:53.520 --> 1:27:56.679 start off by explaining to us perhaps what sea watch 1:27:57.520 --> 1:28:00.280 does and why there's a need for it to do 1:28:00.320 --> 1:28:01.000 that as well? 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:04.840 Yeah, of course, So Seawatch is a Civility and Search 1:28:04.880 --> 1:28:07.719 and Rescue Organization. So we are trying to save people 1:28:07.800 --> 1:28:11.160 from distress at sea, in the Mediterranean Sea. So you 1:28:11.200 --> 1:28:14.639 can imagine a situation being very cruel at the European 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:18.160 external borders right now. So far more than two two 1:28:18.240 --> 1:28:21.879 hundred people drowned only this year while trying to flee 1:28:22.479 --> 1:28:27.040 to the European Union and the area we cover, people 1:28:27.040 --> 1:28:31.200 are mostly fleeing from Tunisia and Libya for example, to Italy, 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:34.040 but also trying to reach Malta for example. So what 1:28:34.080 --> 1:28:37.679 we are trying to do is actually really rescuing bar 1:28:37.880 --> 1:28:41.840 with ships. So currently we have two ships. One is 1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:45.760 prepared at the moment for its first operation and the 1:28:45.800 --> 1:28:48.680 second one had just had rescue on the weekend and 1:28:48.800 --> 1:28:51.559 is now currently blocked initially. And on the other side 1:28:51.560 --> 1:28:56.400 we also have monitoring airplanes surveying the area and trying 1:28:56.439 --> 1:29:00.479 to monitor the human rights situation over the Mediterranean and 1:29:00.520 --> 1:29:05.160 trying to monitor firstly state violence but also secondly trying 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:09.200 to give information when the airplanes are finding boats under 1:29:09.280 --> 1:29:11.960 stress then for people being rescued. 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:14.479 Okay, so there's a lot there. 1:29:14.479 --> 1:29:16.759 I think that we should probably break down for people 1:29:17.439 --> 1:29:18.840 and the first thing I think is you said that 1:29:18.880 --> 1:29:20.400 one of your boats is blocked. 1:29:21.040 --> 1:29:23.480 Now, Yes, maybe people won't. 1:29:23.240 --> 1:29:27.200 Be familiar with the way that certain European countries have 1:29:27.320 --> 1:29:32.080 reacted to the migration coming across the Mediterranean. So can 1:29:32.120 --> 1:29:34.640 you explain what blocking constitute. 1:29:36.000 --> 1:29:40.479 Yeah, so, in Europe, like since a few years, in 1:29:40.520 --> 1:29:43.800 several years, we also see an increase in ultra right 1:29:44.360 --> 1:29:47.680 wing movements and also ultra right governments. So what is 1:29:47.680 --> 1:29:51.519 happening now, especially in Italy where we are operating from, 1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:55.040 is that we have a ultra right wing government under 1:29:55.200 --> 1:29:58.919 the President Georgia Miloney installed and the government is currently 1:29:58.960 --> 1:30:03.320 trying to hinder will see rescue because it's a way 1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:06.920 to actually hinder and also block migration. So in the 1:30:06.920 --> 1:30:10.400 beginning of the year, for example, there was a decree 1:30:10.439 --> 1:30:13.479 put in place that really makes it so much harder 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:17.320 for us to operate. And at the moment after our 1:30:17.400 --> 1:30:20.719 rescue on the weekend, we are blocked for twenty days, 1:30:20.760 --> 1:30:23.280 meaning that we cannot go out and do our usual 1:30:23.320 --> 1:30:26.280 work in the Mediterranean, but our ship has to stay 1:30:26.400 --> 1:30:32.320 import because Italian authorities are claiming that we violated the decree, 1:30:32.400 --> 1:30:34.800 which is actually going against international law. 1:30:35.960 --> 1:30:36.240 Yeah. 1:30:36.760 --> 1:30:39.200 So I think when you say that they're trying to 1:30:39.280 --> 1:30:45.120 hinder migration in the Mediterranean. That's quite a nice way 1:30:45.160 --> 1:30:47.840 of saying, I guess, because what this means is that 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:51.160 they are making that migration even more dangerous than it 1:30:51.160 --> 1:30:53.640 already is by not allowing people to be rescued. Right, 1:30:53.680 --> 1:30:56.960 and as you said, it's already incredibly dangerous, and the. 1:30:56.920 --> 1:31:03.400 More right, the Mediterranean Sea is a graveyard. Like as 1:31:03.439 --> 1:31:05.800 I said, more than twenty two hundred people died this 1:31:06.000 --> 1:31:10.959 year only crossing, and thousands of people died since twenty 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:15.600 and fourteen, like numbers can be seen like with the 1:31:15.720 --> 1:31:19.000 IUM or the International Organization of Migration for example, that 1:31:19.080 --> 1:31:23.200 a're monitoring also the situation in the central central Mediterranean. 1:31:23.600 --> 1:31:27.840 And what this place or this external border actually constitute 1:31:28.200 --> 1:31:32.000 constitutes is a crime scene, a crime scene again for 1:31:32.200 --> 1:31:38.240 crimes against humanity because state states are like purposefully really 1:31:38.280 --> 1:31:40.719 intentionally letting people drown. 1:31:42.120 --> 1:31:46.280 Yeah, and yeah, it's tragic, it's really horrible. Can you 1:31:46.360 --> 1:31:48.759 explain a little bit about like the way that I guess, 1:31:48.800 --> 1:31:51.559 just the mechanics of people crossing the vessels they use 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:56.160 where they like the journey people have seen the Mediterranean 1:31:56.600 --> 1:31:58.920 at all, like depending on where they live aby. See, 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:00.400 they might live on the med but if they don't know, 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:03.679 maybe they've seen beaches and beach holidays in Spain or something. 1:32:03.720 --> 1:32:05.800 And obviously that's that's not all of it. So can 1:32:05.840 --> 1:32:07.879 you explain a little bit about the conditions of the crossing. 1:32:08.600 --> 1:32:12.200 Yeah, so people are all people that we rescue mostly 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:16.479 are trying to flee from Tunisia as well as Libya. 1:32:16.760 --> 1:32:20.120 So the situation in Libya, for example, is really horrible, 1:32:20.240 --> 1:32:26.800 is very violent. There's a lot of documentation of torture camps, 1:32:26.840 --> 1:32:31.519 of rape, of murder, of slave trade, and people that 1:32:31.720 --> 1:32:34.960 comes come from the sub Sahuarent region and are trying 1:32:35.000 --> 1:32:38.920 to flee to the European Union are crossing Libya for example, 1:32:39.200 --> 1:32:41.719 but also in Tunia at the situation at the moment 1:32:41.800 --> 1:32:48.400 is very dire. Is it's very racist. There's like racist 1:32:49.800 --> 1:32:53.960 violent campaign started by the Tunisian president in the beginning 1:32:54.040 --> 1:32:56.240 of the year especially, so we see a lot of 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:59.320 institutional racism, We see a lot of racism and also 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:02.679 a lot of islands on the streets. So people are 1:33:02.720 --> 1:33:06.840 really trying to flee from the country and people are 1:33:06.960 --> 1:33:09.800 using all means possible of pause because they have to. 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:13.439 There's no easy way to come to Europe. Then people 1:33:13.479 --> 1:33:17.519 fleeing cannot just take a train or an airplane actually, 1:33:17.800 --> 1:33:22.120 and then like trying to reach shores of the European Union, 1:33:22.360 --> 1:33:24.599 of a boat is they only means, so they're really 1:33:24.640 --> 1:33:27.519 forced to do that. And boats that are used are 1:33:27.560 --> 1:33:31.200 for example, inflatable boats, but also metal boats. And these 1:33:31.240 --> 1:33:34.920 metal boats especially are very very dangerous because they are 1:33:34.920 --> 1:33:41.000 only like constructed really not in good conditions, so they're 1:33:41.040 --> 1:33:42.960 really easy to sink. 1:33:43.520 --> 1:33:44.439 So as soon as. 1:33:44.360 --> 1:33:47.519 Water comes in, these boats are actually sinking. So people 1:33:47.600 --> 1:33:51.759 are also mostly not wearing life wet, so it's really dangerous. 1:33:52.920 --> 1:33:55.679 Like the number of people on the boat is way 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:59.280 too high for their capacities. So most boats as soon 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:02.120 as they go on to see they are actually in 1:34:02.200 --> 1:34:04.360 distress and they are in need of rescue. 1:34:04.680 --> 1:34:07.840 Okay, yeah, and then let's talk about some of the 1:34:07.880 --> 1:34:10.800 rescues that see what has been able to do, because 1:34:10.840 --> 1:34:13.320 some of them have resulted in the really big numbers 1:34:13.320 --> 1:34:14.960 of people you've been able to save? Right, I think 1:34:15.000 --> 1:34:18.000 there was one in twenty seventeen, which is fifty something people, 1:34:18.200 --> 1:34:18.679 Is that right? 1:34:19.880 --> 1:34:22.960 Yeah? I mean could very well be twenty seventeen. I 1:34:22.960 --> 1:34:24.960 didn't work with sewers. So I don't know which rescue 1:34:24.960 --> 1:34:27.720 me you mean exactly, But for example, just now, on 1:34:27.760 --> 1:34:31.360 the weekend, we rescued seventy two people actually out of 1:34:31.439 --> 1:34:35.400 distress at sea with our ship Aurora. 1:34:35.479 --> 1:34:38.080 Okay, so let's talk about like what that rescue looks like. 1:34:38.120 --> 1:34:41.920 I guess what happens is maybe they and the aircraft 1:34:41.920 --> 1:34:43.920 spot so the ship is in distress. Is that right, 1:34:43.960 --> 1:34:46.960 and then your ship can respond and go to them. 1:34:47.960 --> 1:34:48.160 Yeah. 1:34:48.200 --> 1:34:52.320 For example, there's also another organization it's called Alarm Phone. 1:34:52.400 --> 1:34:55.160 They are like a distress hotline where people in distress 1:34:55.160 --> 1:34:57.280 at seek and call, and they are also giving them 1:34:57.280 --> 1:35:00.280 the information to all ships in the area and of 1:35:00.320 --> 1:35:04.759 course two authorities. So on the weekend, our Aurora actually 1:35:04.840 --> 1:35:08.320 first supported another civil search and rescue ship from Open 1:35:08.439 --> 1:35:13.320 Arms with their rescue and then was led to this 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:17.640 particular distress case also with the help of our monitoring 1:35:17.680 --> 1:35:22.439 flights operations which are called airborne, and the people were 1:35:22.520 --> 1:35:26.639 then rescued on Friday, as said, seventy two people. And 1:35:26.680 --> 1:35:29.519 then normally what you have to do is of course 1:35:30.200 --> 1:35:34.720 informed like the competent authorities in the area, so state authorities, 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:38.720 and according to international law, then state authorities have to 1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:44.920 coordinate the rescue, so we of course communicated, communicated with authorities, 1:35:45.200 --> 1:35:49.320 and authorities only after a while actually assigned us to 1:35:49.360 --> 1:35:53.160 the port of Trapani. So Trapani is in Sicily, on 1:35:53.240 --> 1:35:56.719 the island of Sicily, and it was much farther way 1:35:57.080 --> 1:35:59.439 than the nearest port, which was on the island of 1:35:59.520 --> 1:36:04.120 Lump So you have to imagine, of course, distreads and 1:36:04.160 --> 1:36:10.240 the rescue cases are very dangerous situations and people of 1:36:10.280 --> 1:36:15.800 course need immediate support and need immediate transfer to the 1:36:15.920 --> 1:36:20.559 land where medical help can like intensely happen, et cetera. 1:36:20.880 --> 1:36:24.160 Because people might be on sea for several days, they 1:36:24.240 --> 1:36:28.719 might be in psychological but as well in physical pain 1:36:28.920 --> 1:36:33.759 and stress. They might have burns from actually a fuel 1:36:33.840 --> 1:36:39.120 and seawater mixed, for example, and of course dehydration is 1:36:39.160 --> 1:36:42.360 a very very big danger and risk for people in 1:36:42.439 --> 1:36:46.479 distress at sea. So after we rescued and after we 1:36:46.520 --> 1:36:49.439 got assigned the port of Trapany, we made very clear 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:52.880 to the authorities that Trapani is way too far and 1:36:52.880 --> 1:36:55.400 that according to international law we need to go to 1:36:55.439 --> 1:36:59.840 a Lump producer because it's the most suitable nearest port. 1:37:00.800 --> 1:37:03.559 But then we got noticed that we are not allowed 1:37:03.560 --> 1:37:06.920 to go to Lum Producer actually, and that meant that 1:37:06.960 --> 1:37:09.599 we were in total forced to stay on CEA for 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:14.440 thirty seven hours, and also for those people in distress 1:37:14.880 --> 1:37:18.040 and rescued, they were forced to stay more than twenty 1:37:18.040 --> 1:37:22.559 four hours additionally on sea, like having to really endure 1:37:22.720 --> 1:37:28.160 those really difficult this really difficult situation. The next day, Saturday, 1:37:28.240 --> 1:37:31.679 we were still on see the sun like really burned 1:37:31.720 --> 1:37:36.200 relentlessly by that point, and people were facing dehydration. One 1:37:36.320 --> 1:37:40.280 person actually fainted, and it became really increasingly dangerous the 1:37:40.320 --> 1:37:45.840 situation on board, which is why we community communicated more 1:37:45.880 --> 1:37:49.760 and more with authorities and they were then forced after 1:37:49.800 --> 1:37:52.760 a while to let us enter to Lump Producer because 1:37:52.800 --> 1:37:56.120 the situation was really dire and people needed to disembark 1:37:56.240 --> 1:37:57.320 this embark on land. 1:37:57.960 --> 1:38:00.280 Yeah, I think that's a really good summation of like 1:38:00.320 --> 1:38:04.200 some of the sort of like hostility you encounter from states. 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:07.120 Another thing that see, what she's encountered at least in 1:38:07.120 --> 1:38:11.679 the past, is either negligent or like interference by state 1:38:11.720 --> 1:38:14.559 agencies at sea. I'm not sure if it's a navy 1:38:14.640 --> 1:38:16.240 or the coast Guard. I think it was maybe the 1:38:16.280 --> 1:38:18.360 coast Guard, the Libyan coast Guard whod interfered with a 1:38:18.400 --> 1:38:20.280 rescue and this may have been before you started to 1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:20.760 It's find it. 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:24.920 Yeah, but the so called Libyan Coast Guard is an Yeah, 1:38:24.920 --> 1:38:29.840 it is an actor that is really violent, violently intercepting 1:38:29.880 --> 1:38:32.960 people that are trying to reach European shores and are 1:38:33.000 --> 1:38:37.200 also violently interfering with rescues of civil search and rescue ships. 1:38:37.280 --> 1:38:42.439 So we saw for example, shooting, like shootings in the air, 1:38:43.479 --> 1:38:45.920 like in the direction of our airplanes, but also in 1:38:46.000 --> 1:38:49.760 direction of other search and rescue ships. For example, we 1:38:49.800 --> 1:38:54.000 saw intimidations, We saw violations of international law and human 1:38:54.120 --> 1:38:57.800 rights by the so called Libyan Coast Guard. Because what 1:38:58.120 --> 1:39:01.719 is happening is that the European States, the European Union 1:39:01.800 --> 1:39:05.439 is actually supporting the socoed Libyan Coast Guard to intercept 1:39:05.520 --> 1:39:09.240 people at sea, so to really block people from getting 1:39:09.320 --> 1:39:10.479 to the European Union. 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:14.040 Yeah, and it seems to be like a strategy throughout 1:39:14.040 --> 1:39:14.800 the European Union. 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:15.080 Right. 1:39:15.240 --> 1:39:19.400 It's rather than supporting people as they come, making this 1:39:19.479 --> 1:39:22.560 journey less dangerous, they're trying everything they could do to 1:39:22.640 --> 1:39:25.640 keep people in North Africa to stop them coming to 1:39:25.720 --> 1:39:26.680 Europe at all. 1:39:26.800 --> 1:39:29.840 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, We see this on a very practical 1:39:30.960 --> 1:39:33.320 level in the Mediterranean Sea, but we also see this 1:39:33.400 --> 1:39:37.839 on a political level, so with externalization policies, with deals 1:39:37.880 --> 1:39:40.760 with Tunisia. For example, just recently there has been a 1:39:40.800 --> 1:39:44.840 deal between the European Union and Tunisia with a lot 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:48.679 of money involved to actually trying to block migration again 1:39:48.920 --> 1:39:52.000 and to increase the support for the Tunian Coast Guard, 1:39:52.080 --> 1:39:55.520 for example. But we also see a lot of political 1:39:55.560 --> 1:39:59.360 talks between Italy and Libya. Libya is also now a 1:39:59.360 --> 1:40:02.559 former colony of Italy, so there's very close ties and 1:40:02.840 --> 1:40:06.280 ties and a lot of influence. And just a couple 1:40:06.360 --> 1:40:11.320 of days ago there was the transfer of two ships 1:40:11.880 --> 1:40:14.640 from Italy to do so called Libyan Coast Guards. So 1:40:14.640 --> 1:40:20.240 they're really also, yeah, supporting this very violent, very dangerous 1:40:20.320 --> 1:40:22.480 actor with technical. 1:40:22.120 --> 1:40:23.240 Means m hmm. 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:24.000 Yeah. 1:40:24.040 --> 1:40:27.400 And obviously, like people who listen to all our episodes 1:40:27.400 --> 1:40:29.599 will be aware, like there's increased violence in the Sahel. 1:40:30.360 --> 1:40:34.360 There's not a large shale protests in Syria this week, 1:40:34.520 --> 1:40:36.960 it's not as if the people will. There will still 1:40:37.000 --> 1:40:41.280 be dangerous situations for people to flee, and what the 1:40:41.400 --> 1:40:44.840 EU is doing is making that dangerous journey more dangerous 1:40:44.960 --> 1:40:47.800 rather than sort of accepting that it's a thing that 1:40:47.840 --> 1:40:50.360 happens to humans and trying to make it less deadly. 1:40:51.040 --> 1:40:51.240 Yeah. 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:55.640 Absolutely, And it's like it's a very politically induced situation 1:40:55.840 --> 1:40:58.719 and we are like the European Union is supporting human 1:40:58.800 --> 1:41:01.639 rights crimes, like with the money of the European Union, 1:41:01.920 --> 1:41:05.640 human rights crimes are actually committed. So a couple of 1:41:05.640 --> 1:41:10.640 weeks ago we saw the quotations from Tunian authorities of 1:41:10.800 --> 1:41:15.280 people on the move to the Tunian Libyan border, so 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:18.839 to the desert, and people were actually left there to die. Literally. 1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:24.120 Another way that you guys encountered state level hostility is 1:41:24.160 --> 1:41:27.160 with these legal actions, right that have been taken against you, 1:41:27.760 --> 1:41:30.240 against seawatch, against individuals who are part of sea watching, 1:41:30.280 --> 1:41:34.600 against vessels that Seawatch aren't. Can you explain some of those. 1:41:35.439 --> 1:41:37.720 Yeah, So for example, I mean the most recent one 1:41:37.760 --> 1:41:42.400 with the blockade of our ship, so it's blocked like 1:41:42.439 --> 1:41:47.559 according to state authorities because we or they claim we 1:41:48.640 --> 1:41:54.320 violated the Italian decree that I just talked about, and 1:41:54.439 --> 1:41:58.360 they actually said that we had to request a port 1:41:58.880 --> 1:42:01.960 in Tunisia and bring people back to Tunisia, which would 1:42:02.000 --> 1:42:05.320 have been completely against international law because Tunia cannot be 1:42:05.560 --> 1:42:09.479 considered a safe board or a safe country of origin. 1:42:09.960 --> 1:42:15.360 So now we are in the process of like waiting 1:42:15.400 --> 1:42:19.360 for the Aurora actually to be de blocked again. But 1:42:19.400 --> 1:42:26.519 also Italian authorities of course trying to criminalize person like persons. 1:42:26.720 --> 1:42:29.600 For example, in the case of Carula Rocket, who was 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:34.559 a captain with us in twenty nineteen and who who 1:42:34.680 --> 1:42:37.320 had to enter also the port of Lamproducer because of 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:40.719 the very very difficult situation on board, because the ship 1:42:40.840 --> 1:42:44.640 was forced to stay several days really on the Mediterranean 1:42:44.720 --> 1:42:47.720 Sea and the situation became very dire. So there was 1:42:47.760 --> 1:42:52.200 also proceedings against her in person. So really people that 1:42:52.320 --> 1:42:56.160 are trying to show solidarity and support people on the 1:42:56.240 --> 1:43:00.559 move to claim their human right to claim asylum are 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:05.519 criminalized on the basis of the accusations that are just 1:43:05.640 --> 1:43:10.080 completely not true. For example, was also like all the 1:43:10.160 --> 1:43:13.040 charges against her were dismissed, there was no legal. 1:43:12.800 --> 1:43:14.360 Ground for them. 1:43:13.880 --> 1:43:16.960 M Yeah, but that harassment obviously still hinders your work, 1:43:17.040 --> 1:43:19.280 right even even if the charges are dismissed, like the 1:43:19.360 --> 1:43:23.000 time that the ship can't go out, yeah, absolutely. 1:43:22.520 --> 1:43:28.960 And it also is also a means to like to 1:43:28.960 --> 1:43:32.840 to implement fear now in people's minds, because of course 1:43:32.880 --> 1:43:37.519 it is super scary to be to be accused by 1:43:37.560 --> 1:43:41.240 a state to have actually violated law and you are 1:43:41.240 --> 1:43:47.360 facing charges of years in prison, and like only that, 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:51.200 fear can already do a lot. But we don't only 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:53.559 see this in Italy. We also see this a lot 1:43:53.640 --> 1:43:58.320 in Greece, for example, a country which is also really 1:43:58.360 --> 1:44:03.679 trying to criminalize humanitarian and politically or like humanitarian workers 1:44:03.680 --> 1:44:06.679 that are standing in solidarity with people on the wove. 1:44:07.400 --> 1:44:11.000 Yeah, and so people might not be as familiar with 1:44:11.040 --> 1:44:13.759 the landscape of migration. So maybe you could just explain, 1:44:13.800 --> 1:44:16.639 like where the boats are based, because you talked about Greece, 1:44:16.640 --> 1:44:20.200 so I know that that Maltese authorities have also like 1:44:20.600 --> 1:44:24.200 bought cases against Sea Watch. Can you explain the different 1:44:24.439 --> 1:44:26.960 landscape I guess of where your boats are based and 1:44:27.000 --> 1:44:31.120 where they tend to sort of end up relocating or 1:44:31.120 --> 1:44:32.879 taking people to once they've been rescued. 1:44:34.000 --> 1:44:38.760 Well, we take people who've been who's been, who've been 1:44:38.800 --> 1:44:43.360 rescued a lot to Italy, but we're also of course 1:44:43.400 --> 1:44:47.559 trying to coordinate with Maltese authorities who author the legal 1:44:47.600 --> 1:44:51.439 responsibility to take people in that Maltese authorities or Malta 1:44:51.760 --> 1:44:57.080 the state is actually really irresponsive, so we really see 1:44:57.640 --> 1:45:01.280 as little engagement of the country as possible. We see 1:45:01.320 --> 1:45:06.759 a lot of hindering of migration. We see very special 1:45:06.800 --> 1:45:11.479 cases with Malta where Malta Maltese authorities are actually, for example, 1:45:12.520 --> 1:45:16.880 communicating to merchant vessels who are finding or who are 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:20.120 in vicinity of distress cases that they should just hand 1:45:20.160 --> 1:45:23.720 out fuel to the boats or hand out water. So 1:45:24.160 --> 1:45:27.120 those distress cases, those boats are actually making their way 1:45:27.160 --> 1:45:29.680 to Italy on their own, so they are out of 1:45:30.040 --> 1:45:31.440 Maltese responsibility. 1:45:31.720 --> 1:45:36.719 Oh wow, yeah, so it's kind of passing the back along. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:45:36.800 --> 1:45:41.479 It's just so sad and how similar so much this 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:43.360 is to the way the US deals with people coming 1:45:43.400 --> 1:45:46.640 across our land the border, which is often dear to 1:45:46.680 --> 1:45:48.920 say they have they been back to Mexico, which again 1:45:49.040 --> 1:45:50.960 is a violation of international law and it's not a 1:45:51.000 --> 1:45:53.880 safe place. And again people in the US have been 1:45:53.880 --> 1:45:56.280 criminalized for providing drinking water to people in the desert, 1:45:56.400 --> 1:45:59.320 right and even if it doesn't work, it scares people. 1:46:00.120 --> 1:46:03.040 Yeah, And it's like, definitely it's not only a European 1:46:04.120 --> 1:46:07.639 kind of situation. It's the situation at borders in general, 1:46:08.600 --> 1:46:14.479 because borders are in the end like a construct to yeah, 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:18.800 to safeguard in like like I don't know how to say, 1:46:19.040 --> 1:46:24.920 like in the cordination marks you're a parent space. 1:46:25.280 --> 1:46:28.280 Yes exactly, yeah, and to kind of yeah, I don't know, 1:46:28.640 --> 1:46:30.960 enforce some kind of notion who's in, who's out, and 1:46:31.000 --> 1:46:35.120 who's the other and who's the same. I wonder one 1:46:35.160 --> 1:46:37.719 thing that people will be wondering is obviously see waches 1:46:37.720 --> 1:46:43.679 a large scale operation with quite substantial assets, and people 1:46:43.720 --> 1:46:46.880 may be wondering, how you see which funded? How do 1:46:46.960 --> 1:46:49.479 you get you know, you need experienced captains, you need 1:46:49.560 --> 1:46:55.080 maybe people who experienced in rescue operations that see pilots. 1:46:55.520 --> 1:46:57.040 So where do all these people come from? 1:46:58.000 --> 1:47:00.960 Well, like they come I mean also from the general public. 1:47:01.000 --> 1:47:04.080 We have so many volunteers that are working with us. 1:47:04.160 --> 1:47:09.719 Really also we have people that are writing us and trying, 1:47:09.960 --> 1:47:12.880 like trying to support and of course like everybody can 1:47:13.280 --> 1:47:15.439 or anyone can have a look at the website. We 1:47:15.560 --> 1:47:18.720 have job offers on the website usually as well, and 1:47:18.880 --> 1:47:21.400 like if you want to support, really have a look 1:47:21.479 --> 1:47:24.519 and also try to reach out in case of any questions, 1:47:24.960 --> 1:47:29.600 and like Seawatch and also other civil sea rescue organizations 1:47:29.840 --> 1:47:34.320 are really sustaining themselves and are financed by donations. So 1:47:34.479 --> 1:47:38.040 we are solely financed by donations, and we are really 1:47:38.080 --> 1:47:41.400 like trying to keep the work up as much as 1:47:41.880 --> 1:47:46.000 much as possible, and we have lots of different opportunities 1:47:46.000 --> 1:47:49.080 as well to support not only by working with us, 1:47:49.120 --> 1:47:52.040 but also in spreading our message on social media. So 1:47:52.080 --> 1:47:56.200 that's maybe the easiest for everyone who has social media accounts. 1:47:56.280 --> 1:47:59.719 Just like search Seawatching, you'll probably find our accounts on Twitter, 1:48:00.080 --> 1:48:02.959 on Instagram, on Facebook, but also on TikTok for example, 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:07.280 like inform yourself, educate yourself and share the message, talk 1:48:07.320 --> 1:48:11.120 to your families while having dinner, talk to your friends, 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:15.760 and also support really self organized groups of people on 1:48:15.800 --> 1:48:18.639 the move. So for example, you can inform yourself by 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:23.440 finding refugees in Libya the group or refugees in Tunisia 1:48:23.439 --> 1:48:26.799 on Twitter and they are actually talking about their situation 1:48:26.960 --> 1:48:32.560 in the country. But also like like on on miggression groups. 1:48:33.360 --> 1:48:37.120 Yeah, I wonder like talking about refugees in Tunisia and 1:48:37.160 --> 1:48:41.120 Libya has sort of reminded me recently, we discussed on 1:48:41.200 --> 1:48:44.679 an episode like the presences of Wargner group in Africa 1:48:44.720 --> 1:48:47.519 right specifically they've been in Libya before, they are now 1:48:47.720 --> 1:48:50.599 in the Sahel in Central African Republic, in different places, 1:48:51.160 --> 1:48:53.559 and how people have reacted very differently to a presences 1:48:53.600 --> 1:48:57.719 of Aargner group in Ukraine to the presences of Wagner 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:01.439 group in Africa. And I wonder this isn't to say 1:49:01.439 --> 1:49:03.200 that people I don't want to be construed to saying 1:49:03.240 --> 1:49:06.400 that people shouldn't have solidarity with people fleeing con conflict 1:49:06.439 --> 1:49:08.519 in Ukraine, because they should and those people have every 1:49:08.560 --> 1:49:09.000 right to a. 1:49:08.920 --> 1:49:09.599 Safe place too. 1:49:09.640 --> 1:49:13.840 But has there been a change in the tone or 1:49:14.040 --> 1:49:17.280 just the material support for you guys since the conflict 1:49:17.760 --> 1:49:21.160 in the Ukraine grew broader of the Dombats and Crimera 1:49:21.200 --> 1:49:22.799 into the full scale invasion. 1:49:23.800 --> 1:49:25.879 I mean, we see like we are in a situation 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:28.760 of like multiple crisses. Now. Of course we saw the 1:49:28.840 --> 1:49:32.479 invasion of Russia in Ukraine, but we're also we're facing 1:49:32.479 --> 1:49:37.439 climate change, We're facing dire economical situations, et cetera. So 1:49:37.840 --> 1:49:42.160 also our generations went down in the in the past year, definitely, 1:49:42.479 --> 1:49:45.720 but we are still also are so lucky to have 1:49:45.880 --> 1:49:50.320 like a very strong solid like solidary basis of people 1:49:50.360 --> 1:49:53.840 supporting us. So I think it's like it's kind of 1:49:53.880 --> 1:49:54.559 both a little bit. 1:49:55.080 --> 1:49:57.840 Yeah, I always think like with respect to the solidarity, 1:49:58.040 --> 1:50:01.559 and I've never really like every time so that there's 1:50:01.920 --> 1:50:04.040 a larger scale crisis at the southern border of the 1:50:04.120 --> 1:50:08.200 United States, right, Like recently, the United States government, very 1:50:08.240 --> 1:50:10.280 similar to what you were describing, was keeping people in 1:50:10.320 --> 1:50:13.000 the open desert and leaving them there for days without 1:50:13.000 --> 1:50:16.960 food or water, and hundreds of people mobilized to help them, 1:50:16.960 --> 1:50:19.120 people who you might not expect to be particularly radical 1:50:19.120 --> 1:50:22.040 in their politics or you know, in the sort of 1:50:22.040 --> 1:50:24.360 direct action people, but they were great and everyone helped 1:50:24.360 --> 1:50:27.280 and answer result, no one died. One young woman died 1:50:27.280 --> 1:50:30.880 in Texas in CBP custody. And like I always think 1:50:30.920 --> 1:50:33.240 if people could see it then, like you were saying, 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:35.760 they can see your videos, people, there's a very human 1:50:35.800 --> 1:50:38.639 response to never want that to happen to another human being. 1:50:38.720 --> 1:50:42.720 It's just hard when there's there's so much going on. 1:50:43.560 --> 1:50:47.800 Yeah, And also it's I think it's completely understandable that we, like, 1:50:48.000 --> 1:50:52.480 not every person can concern themselves with all the topics 1:50:52.560 --> 1:50:56.519 all the crisis situations we're facing right now, and like 1:50:56.600 --> 1:50:59.280 no one expects that of us, but we can expect 1:50:59.439 --> 1:51:03.120 of stay because it's day of duty that like they 1:51:03.160 --> 1:51:06.280 are taking care of people actually, and they are really 1:51:06.920 --> 1:51:10.280 trying to set the base for everyone to like to 1:51:10.360 --> 1:51:13.839 claim the human right and it states themselves that actually 1:51:13.920 --> 1:51:17.840 like wrote down those human rights because of a certain situation. 1:51:18.280 --> 1:51:21.120 So I mean, especially in Europe, we really have like 1:51:21.439 --> 1:51:24.439 we're just considering our history is just considering the history 1:51:24.439 --> 1:51:28.439 of Germany. We just like it's it's platant ignorance and 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:33.160 also completely against any historical evidence, against any historical work 1:51:33.200 --> 1:51:36.760 we've done, what the situation now is and what we're 1:51:36.800 --> 1:51:40.120 actually doing at the external borders like committing human rights 1:51:40.160 --> 1:51:44.320 crimes and like ignoring the situation actually like increasing the 1:51:44.439 --> 1:51:48.920 dangers for people on the move on daily basis. And 1:51:49.000 --> 1:51:51.680 I think, I mean it's not only I mean you 1:51:51.720 --> 1:51:54.240 also mentioned this before. Now, like it's also situation you're 1:51:54.240 --> 1:51:57.320 facing in the US, and we really have to like 1:51:57.400 --> 1:52:03.400 build strong transnational movements and strong transnational ties to like 1:52:03.640 --> 1:52:06.719 work against state violence order violence in general. 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:09.680 Yeah, I think that that's an excellent point that this 1:52:09.720 --> 1:52:12.360 is part of a broader kind of state violence that 1:52:12.400 --> 1:52:14.720 everyone should be opposed to like it hurts everyone in 1:52:14.720 --> 1:52:17.519 the end. And yeah, as both of us being European people, 1:52:17.560 --> 1:52:20.719 we've seen that like very obviously, but we know government 1:52:20.760 --> 1:52:24.080 seem to have forgotten. One thing that you mentioned that 1:52:24.120 --> 1:52:26.960 I wanted to talk about before we finish was climate change, 1:52:27.160 --> 1:52:30.840 because you said, you know, we obviously like the it's 1:52:30.920 --> 1:52:34.000 very hard for someone living in Europe or North America 1:52:34.000 --> 1:52:36.960 this year to pretend that climate change isn't happening, like 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:44.000 with soaring temperatures, hurricane in California, wildfires everywhere. Can you 1:52:44.240 --> 1:52:45.960 explain a little bit, because I think one thing that 1:52:46.000 --> 1:52:49.559 people fail to connect is and maybe that's largely due 1:52:49.600 --> 1:52:51.920 to not bad reporting perhaps, but like it doesn't get 1:52:51.960 --> 1:52:53.920 mentioned in reporting when we talk about migration, we don't 1:52:53.920 --> 1:52:55.920 talk about climate change, and we talk about climate change 1:52:55.960 --> 1:52:59.160 and talk about migration. But the two go hand in hand, right, 1:52:59.240 --> 1:53:01.479 Like the people, certainly many of the people that I 1:53:01.520 --> 1:53:04.120 see our certain border coming from areas most affected by 1:53:04.120 --> 1:53:07.720 climate change. Is that something that see what sees too 1:53:07.840 --> 1:53:10.479 like as parts of the world that are more marginal 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:13.280 for people to live in get even harder to live in, 1:53:13.600 --> 1:53:16.840 those people coming being forced to leave. 1:53:16.880 --> 1:53:18.679 I guess, well. 1:53:19.200 --> 1:53:24.720 Look at science now and at research and like millions 1:53:24.920 --> 1:53:27.679 and millions of people more will be possibly be because 1:53:27.720 --> 1:53:29.960 of climate change in the next in the next years. 1:53:30.000 --> 1:53:33.960 We can't deny that fact. And we as European states 1:53:33.960 --> 1:53:38.360 and European societies are a big part of why this 1:53:38.479 --> 1:53:41.960 is actually happening and why climate change is increasing in 1:53:42.120 --> 1:53:45.479 the in the speed that it is increasing right now. 1:53:45.520 --> 1:53:48.559 So we have a huge responsibility to take care and 1:53:48.760 --> 1:53:52.040 like to support people actually on the move. And I 1:53:52.040 --> 1:53:57.320 mean as seawatch, we don't make any difference as of 1:53:57.640 --> 1:54:00.599 why people are fleeing, people are in the stress, said see, 1:54:00.880 --> 1:54:06.519 people are being rescued. That's it. That's the only responsible like, 1:54:06.520 --> 1:54:09.960 that's the only perspective we have supporting people that are 1:54:10.000 --> 1:54:13.880 in distressed at SEE, because if you are calling an ambulance, 1:54:13.960 --> 1:54:16.880 they also don't ask, oh, hey, why are you actually 1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:20.800 calling the ambulance like the jew and why are you 1:54:20.840 --> 1:54:24.280 in this situation? The ambulance just coming. And this is 1:54:24.439 --> 1:54:28.040 this should also be always the case in the Mediterranean. 1:54:27.920 --> 1:54:31.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, or anywhere else people at SEE. So 1:54:32.080 --> 1:54:34.720 I wonder, like the last couple of I think they 1:54:34.760 --> 1:54:37.080 wanted to ask you more broad but you spoke earlier 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:43.080 about the rise of right wing governments and movements in Europe. 1:54:43.400 --> 1:54:47.600 And when we obviously talk about the history of the 1:54:47.680 --> 1:54:50.360 right wing in Europe and we think about fascism, and 1:54:51.000 --> 1:54:52.640 I know people who listen to this podcast will be 1:54:52.720 --> 1:54:56.120 very invested in like their their history and current struggle 1:54:56.160 --> 1:54:58.000 of anti fascism. And would you say it was fair 1:54:58.040 --> 1:55:00.560 it would be fair to cast what see what she 1:55:00.680 --> 1:55:04.880 is doing within the broader spectrum of opposing fascism or 1:55:05.120 --> 1:55:09.760 opposing I guess of nationalist state violence, right wing state violence. 1:55:10.400 --> 1:55:14.960 Absolutely, we are part of antifascist movement. We are anti 1:55:15.000 --> 1:55:21.400 fascists by court, so we definitely define ourselves as antifacious activists. 1:55:21.640 --> 1:55:21.880 Yeah. 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:24.760 Nice, And I wonder last thing that people want to 1:55:24.800 --> 1:55:28.880 show the solidarity you mentioned some ways, is there anything 1:55:28.920 --> 1:55:31.920 in particular, like I know people have contacted me about 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:33.680 volunteering for sea, which before en have directed them to 1:55:33.720 --> 1:55:36.440 your website, But when we do have a lot of 1:55:36.680 --> 1:55:40.360 listeners in Europe, and they are particular things that you're 1:55:40.400 --> 1:55:43.320 looking for in volunteers. Obviously, anyone can donate and they 1:55:43.360 --> 1:55:46.160 should if they have money, But what are you as 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:50.040 are certain qualifications you desperately need or so. 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:52.000 I mean, we of course, always looking for people that 1:55:52.160 --> 1:55:57.800 are supporting our operations, especially on sea, but also with 1:55:57.880 --> 1:56:02.520 our airplanes of course, So if you have captains qualifications 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:06.960 or other qualifications that allow you to go to see 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:13.440 and sale, or engineering qualifications for example, or medical qualifications 1:56:13.480 --> 1:56:16.800 as well, we're always looking for nurses for doctors supporting 1:56:16.800 --> 1:56:19.520 on the ships, then please just like have a look 1:56:19.560 --> 1:56:21.800 at the website and reach out. We have a specific 1:56:21.920 --> 1:56:25.240 form as well where you can just also sign in 1:56:25.320 --> 1:56:28.960 for interest basically, and then our crewing department takes care 1:56:29.240 --> 1:56:33.240 and sees like who and like when it's actually fitting. 1:56:33.680 --> 1:56:36.360 Okay, yeah, that's great pla people can reach out and 1:56:36.640 --> 1:56:38.520 before we finish up, is there anything else that you'd 1:56:38.560 --> 1:56:40.160 like to share with people that you think we haven't 1:56:40.200 --> 1:56:40.480 got to. 1:56:43.160 --> 1:56:45.600 I think we didn't talk about FRONTACS for example, or. 1:56:45.720 --> 1:56:48.280 Oh yeah, let's do it. Do you explain frontext to people? 1:56:48.840 --> 1:56:54.960 Yeah, So FRONTICICS is the European Border Protection Agency I'm 1:56:55.040 --> 1:56:58.880 so called actually of course god and border agency and 1:56:59.080 --> 1:57:04.040 FRONTICS is it's also surveying and working on the Mediterranean 1:57:04.120 --> 1:57:13.960 Sea and like responsible for for border protection specifically in 1:57:14.040 --> 1:57:17.200 general or it actually has a double mandate, so border 1:57:17.240 --> 1:57:20.879 protection on the one side, but also coast guard duties 1:57:21.080 --> 1:57:24.840 Europeans on the other side. What we criticize is of 1:57:24.880 --> 1:57:29.200 course that FONTECS does so called border protection and does 1:57:29.280 --> 1:57:32.400 not actually support people on the movement, people in distress. 1:57:32.560 --> 1:57:36.120 So this double mandate does not work at all. We 1:57:36.240 --> 1:57:39.360 see a lot of non coordination, a lot of a 1:57:39.400 --> 1:57:42.440 lot of non information and also a lot of violence 1:57:42.520 --> 1:57:46.800 of context. So for example, FANTECS or there was a 1:57:46.960 --> 1:57:50.800 report from Human Rights Watch for example, and that fontext 1:57:51.040 --> 1:57:56.640 is complicit in pullbacks by the so called Libyan Coast 1:57:56.680 --> 1:58:00.320 Guard because there is actually communication between FONTECS and the 1:58:00.360 --> 1:58:03.320 so called Libyan Coast Guard, and the so called Libyan 1:58:03.360 --> 1:58:06.400 cost guard. Cost Guard can then detect boats in the 1:58:06.440 --> 1:58:10.680 stress their location with this information but provided by FONTICS 1:58:10.960 --> 1:58:14.280 and bring people or force people back to Libya for example. 1:58:14.480 --> 1:58:18.400 So FANTAICS is really an actor that we criticize hugely 1:58:18.680 --> 1:58:24.960 and that we actually working towards their abolishment because how 1:58:25.200 --> 1:58:29.080 the organization or the institution is working right now does 1:58:29.160 --> 1:58:32.200 not have anything to do with the legal. 1:58:32.000 --> 1:58:32.640 Rights of people. 1:58:33.480 --> 1:58:34.720 Yeah, and people will. 1:58:34.720 --> 1:58:38.520 We spoke with Ruth Kinner, who who's a professor in 1:58:38.560 --> 1:58:41.880 Love for about lifeboats in the UK, because the UK 1:58:42.880 --> 1:58:46.480 has a notionally it has a very real distinction between 1:58:47.280 --> 1:58:50.920 rescuing people at sea and doing border reinforcement and those 1:58:50.920 --> 1:58:56.760 two different things, no different, Yeah, if people like It's 1:58:56.800 --> 1:58:59.360 also in crop Parkins book Mutual eight, he talks about 1:58:59.400 --> 1:59:02.320 the value of lifeboats and volunteer organizations such as your own, 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:05.480 that it's very foundational to people talk a lot about 1:59:05.520 --> 1:59:08.080 mutual aid, but this is like one of the I guess, 1:59:08.080 --> 1:59:12.960 like foundational examples of it. So like, can you explain 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:15.760 what a better system? And obviously I'm not asking you 1:59:15.800 --> 1:59:18.680 to like solve all the world's problems, but like, would 1:59:18.720 --> 1:59:22.200 what would it? We can make relatively few changes, I guess, 1:59:22.240 --> 1:59:24.400 and make this so much more humane and not have 1:59:24.720 --> 1:59:27.520 someone's little children around in the Mediterranean so that I 1:59:27.560 --> 1:59:29.280 don't know, people don't have to live next to someone 1:59:29.320 --> 1:59:31.520 who speaks a different language from them, or whatever people's 1:59:31.520 --> 1:59:34.400 fears are of migrants, can you explain what that would 1:59:34.400 --> 1:59:34.800 look like? 1:59:35.960 --> 1:59:39.240 I mean, we need freedom of movement, that's for sure. Like, 1:59:39.280 --> 1:59:41.640 and this is also one of our basic demands. We 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:45.320 need freedom of movement for everyone. We need people to 1:59:45.840 --> 1:59:49.480 have legal and safe pathways through Europe, so safe passage. 1:59:50.040 --> 1:59:54.120 We need a system that, in accordance to the needs 1:59:54.160 --> 1:59:58.280 and the wants of people, people are actually also redistributed 1:59:58.360 --> 2:00:02.200 over the European Union and can join their family members 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:06.840 for example, or their friends, their support systems while trying 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:10.440 to flee violence, while trying to flee from places where 2:00:10.480 --> 2:00:13.600 they cannot live in the end, So this is really 2:00:13.720 --> 2:00:16.600 like what we are focusing on in the end to 2:00:16.720 --> 2:00:23.640 have people coming to Europe through safe passages. So and 2:00:23.720 --> 2:00:26.680 this is really what needs to be established. And of 2:00:26.720 --> 2:00:29.520 course in this current situation, as a first step, we 2:00:29.680 --> 2:00:34.160 need a European coordinated search and rescue program with the 2:00:34.200 --> 2:00:38.440 only mandate to rescue votes in distress, to rescue people 2:00:38.440 --> 2:00:41.760 in distress, to actually make sure that the situation, the 2:00:41.840 --> 2:00:46.000 death trap that the Mediterranean seas actually constituting at the moment, stops, 2:00:46.080 --> 2:00:47.400 Like this situation has. 2:00:47.320 --> 2:00:48.200 To stop immediately. 2:00:48.640 --> 2:00:51.160 Yeah, and it could stop very quickly, right the level 2:00:51.160 --> 2:00:54.560 of resources at state type available to deploy, they could 2:00:54.600 --> 2:00:57.720 make this go away very quickly. 2:00:57.880 --> 2:01:01.800 I think they could have. There wouldn't be actually focused 2:01:01.800 --> 2:01:04.760 on externalization and blocking people to come. 2:01:05.120 --> 2:01:08.640 Yeah, And I think, like, I don't know, when you 2:01:08.680 --> 2:01:11.480 think about that, that's a conscious choice and the results 2:01:11.480 --> 2:01:14.600 of that. It's very, very sad. And I mean in 2:01:14.600 --> 2:01:16.600 the UK we seem to just talk about it openly now, 2:01:16.720 --> 2:01:21.040 like they have whole campaigns about stopping small boats. But yeah, 2:01:21.240 --> 2:01:23.320 I think people need to realize that, like, it's not 2:01:23.480 --> 2:01:26.520 boats that they're stopping, it's little children that they're consigning 2:01:26.920 --> 2:01:28.440 to risking their lives. 2:01:29.240 --> 2:01:33.360 Yeah, children, it's women, it's men, it's non binary persons, 2:01:33.360 --> 2:01:39.760 it's everyone who wants to reach safety, and everyone deserves 2:01:39.920 --> 2:01:43.200 to be rescued. Everyone deserves to be to live nor 2:01:43.320 --> 2:01:44.200 questions asked. 2:01:44.640 --> 2:01:46.920 Yeah, no, I think that's a wonderful place to end. Actually, 2:01:47.120 --> 2:01:50.880 I think it's a hard statement to disagree with. Can 2:01:50.920 --> 2:01:53.360 you what are your Twitter handles? Where can people find 2:01:53.560 --> 2:01:55.480 and follow seawatch. 2:01:55.840 --> 2:01:56.520 Do watch crew? 2:01:57.200 --> 2:01:59.560 Okay, and that's all over, that's your U r L 2:01:59.600 --> 2:01:59.960 as well. 2:02:01.240 --> 2:02:05.040 Yeah, so let me have a look. So I'm not 2:02:05.280 --> 2:02:10.400 saying saying anything wrong, but Seewatch crew so at Seawatch 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:13.880 Crew all together and US and small is actually our 2:02:13.960 --> 2:02:19.440 German account and our international account is at Seawatch underline 2:02:19.880 --> 2:02:24.080 in I n t L for international, and then we 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:27.000 also have an Italian account for all Italian speakers. 2:02:27.080 --> 2:02:29.200 Okay, perfect, Yeah, we'll make sure that we link to 2:02:29.240 --> 2:02:32.240 those two. And thank you very much for your time 2:02:32.960 --> 2:02:34.680 this afternoon, your time, morning, my time. 2:02:35.560 --> 2:02:38.120 Thank you so much for the request for talking to us. 2:02:38.440 --> 2:02:57.760 Yeah, of course, welcome back to it could happen here 2:02:57.960 --> 2:03:02.080 a podcast about things falling apart, and you can't spell 2:03:02.280 --> 2:03:07.080 falling apart without Republican Party, or at least several of 2:03:07.120 --> 2:03:10.360 the letters fall into the party you use that for 2:03:10.440 --> 2:03:14.400 that are also in this Garrison. Hello, how are you 2:03:14.440 --> 2:03:18.760 doing good well with Garrison in Atlanta? 2:03:18.920 --> 2:03:23.440 Yeah, yes, I just got back from a visit in 2:03:23.520 --> 2:03:25.880 Portland where we watched many upsetting things. 2:03:27.080 --> 2:03:28.320 Bak, we didn't. 2:03:28.080 --> 2:03:30.240 Watch a lot of upsetting things, Yeah. 2:03:30.120 --> 2:03:33.680 Probably the most upsetting of which was the first of 2:03:33.720 --> 2:03:35.920 the twenty twenty four Republican primary. 2:03:36.000 --> 2:03:36.360 Yeah. 2:03:36.480 --> 2:03:39.760 Yeah, boy, it sure was nice watching those Indonesian war 2:03:39.840 --> 2:03:46.560 criminals reenact their crimes. Really cleared my mind after watching 2:03:46.560 --> 2:03:47.760 the Republican debate. 2:03:48.120 --> 2:03:50.680 Yeah, that was a really good palette cleanser. 2:03:52.600 --> 2:03:56.920 So, you know, this is not the most timely thing 2:03:56.960 --> 2:03:59.560 because we didn't want to just like do a reaction 2:03:59.640 --> 2:04:02.480 podcas has where we talked about here's what we thought about. 2:04:02.520 --> 2:04:06.800 You know, vi Vec's answer or anonymous white man number 2:04:06.840 --> 2:04:09.600 four is answer to you know, these various questions. 2:04:09.920 --> 2:04:12.320 I thought Chris Christy was very put together. 2:04:12.360 --> 2:04:13.080 Very on. 2:04:15.320 --> 2:04:16.560 Message. 2:04:16.080 --> 2:04:18.680 Yeah, now we wanted to look at like wait for 2:04:18.720 --> 2:04:21.040 some polls to come out and and actually kind of 2:04:21.320 --> 2:04:24.280 both talk about what happened and kind of what worried us, 2:04:24.360 --> 2:04:27.440 and also how it seems to be playing, uh with 2:04:27.720 --> 2:04:32.120 the bass and the American voters in general, because all 2:04:32.200 --> 2:04:35.280 of this matters, because again, the Republicans are I mean, 2:04:35.560 --> 2:04:38.240 we are all a little bit the architects of collapse 2:04:38.280 --> 2:04:40.840 here and in our in our lovely society. But the 2:04:40.920 --> 2:04:44.920 Republicans they like to they like to really pump that 2:04:45.000 --> 2:04:49.680 shit into a higher gear. So, you know, I think 2:04:49.720 --> 2:04:51.920 the thing that kind of stuck out to both of 2:04:52.040 --> 2:04:54.520 us most and the thing that's been one of the 2:04:54.520 --> 2:04:57.280 primary kind of takeaways that one of the main things 2:04:57.280 --> 2:04:59.960 people have talked about after the debate, uh was, was 2:05:00.120 --> 2:05:05.080 Vivek's performance. Vivek Ramaswami, who is prior to I even 2:05:05.160 --> 2:05:07.360 made a little comment prior to it that I didn't 2:05:07.760 --> 2:05:09.600 I didn't know much about him or think he was 2:05:09.720 --> 2:05:12.080 much of an entity in this because, uh, you know, 2:05:12.280 --> 2:05:14.760 in in part because that's true. He was somebody who 2:05:14.840 --> 2:05:18.200 is just kind of coming onto the scene in politics. 2:05:19.120 --> 2:05:21.680 I wanted to talk a little bit about how he 2:05:21.960 --> 2:05:25.000 started that because there was some stuff I was unaware 2:05:25.000 --> 2:05:29.360 of here prior to him announcing his candidacy. He's one 2:05:29.400 --> 2:05:31.800 of these guys who kind of started because he comes 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:35.000 out of biotech. He's a quote unquote entrepreneur, and specifically 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:38.720 he's the kind of shitty entrepreneur who like has managed 2:05:38.760 --> 2:05:43.400 to get rich largely without actually contributing anything, like primarily 2:05:43.840 --> 2:05:48.240 buying up patents for drugs in development that he profits 2:05:48.280 --> 2:05:50.440 on but then later are found not to work. Is 2:05:50.440 --> 2:05:53.960 a big part of how where his fortune comes from. 2:05:55.040 --> 2:05:59.040 And he started kind of about really about a year ago, 2:05:59.120 --> 2:06:02.680 I think, trying to brand himself as a kind of 2:06:02.760 --> 2:06:07.720 political influencer, specifically through like social media. And he had 2:06:07.760 --> 2:06:12.120 been getting a lot of attention, like as a result 2:06:12.160 --> 2:06:14.440 of the success of his because he's one of these 2:06:14.480 --> 2:06:17.440 guys he's good at using social media. He gets up 2:06:17.520 --> 2:06:20.160 to you know, he's had a couple one hundred thousand 2:06:20.160 --> 2:06:24.120 followers when he announces his candidacy, and prior to announcing 2:06:24.120 --> 2:06:25.960 his candidacy, he had done well enough at kind of 2:06:25.960 --> 2:06:29.000 building a brand for himself that in twenty two or 2:06:29.040 --> 2:06:31.680 twenty twenty two, early twenty twenty two, he and the 2:06:31.760 --> 2:06:36.920 Daily Wire start putting together a contract and they want 2:06:36.960 --> 2:06:41.360 to bring him on, presumably for like a frightening, like 2:06:41.400 --> 2:06:44.120 a deeply upsetting amount of money, to do something that 2:06:44.120 --> 2:06:47.360 they haven't really done before, which is just kind of 2:06:47.880 --> 2:06:52.560 launch a like a show based around him that's like 2:06:52.640 --> 2:06:56.400 a news and politics show, which was a little bit 2:06:56.400 --> 2:06:58.680 different kind of than a lot of the deals that 2:06:58.880 --> 2:07:01.600 like they've had before, where it's more like, you know, 2:07:01.640 --> 2:07:04.760 here's Matt Walsh's podcast where he's going to, you know, 2:07:05.120 --> 2:07:07.560 try to get people killed. Here's Been Shapiro's podcast where 2:07:07.600 --> 2:07:09.160 he's going to get angry at the Barbie movie. This 2:07:09.320 --> 2:07:11.680 was like, we're launching a news and culture like a 2:07:11.720 --> 2:07:14.160 news and politics podcast, and Vivek's going to be like 2:07:14.200 --> 2:07:16.080 the face of it, right, yeah, with. 2:07:16.080 --> 2:07:19.240 Like attempts at actual like a political analysis, mostly from 2:07:19.240 --> 2:07:20.680 a libertarian perspective. 2:07:21.040 --> 2:07:24.760 Yes, yes, And so that's the idea and kind of 2:07:24.840 --> 2:07:28.400 midway through after you know, a significant amount of time 2:07:28.480 --> 2:07:31.560 in development and according to kind of what Jeremy Boring, 2:07:31.600 --> 2:07:35.600 who's the CEO of a Daily Wire, said after they 2:07:35.640 --> 2:07:37.600 had spent a bit of money kind of working on 2:07:37.640 --> 2:07:40.800 sort of the concept for this, he backs out rather suddenly, 2:07:40.840 --> 2:07:43.440 boring later said his priorities were changing and we could 2:07:43.440 --> 2:07:45.600 have chosen to be aggressive about it. We did spend 2:07:45.640 --> 2:07:47.000 a little bit of money on the prep that we've 2:07:47.040 --> 2:07:49.960 been doing. Like so, I think there's a little bit 2:07:49.960 --> 2:07:53.919 of bad blood there actually between them. But he bounces 2:07:54.000 --> 2:07:57.040 from this deal with the Daily Wire to announce his 2:07:57.120 --> 2:08:01.400 twenty twenty four campaign run. And this seems to have 2:08:01.480 --> 2:08:04.880 kind of started in early part, like earlier on in 2:08:04.920 --> 2:08:07.880 this year, start of twenty twenty three, when he has 2:08:07.920 --> 2:08:11.440 this meeting with a small group of who were described 2:08:11.480 --> 2:08:16.560 in this ABC News article as conservative operatives, to discuss 2:08:16.600 --> 2:08:19.160 his exciting plans. I'm going to read a quote from 2:08:19.160 --> 2:08:22.840 that article. I'm going to run for president. Ramaswami sat 2:08:22.880 --> 2:08:25.680 on the call. Ramaswami pitched himself as a candidate who 2:08:25.680 --> 2:08:28.920 could make serious waves in the Republican primary at the meeting. 2:08:29.160 --> 2:08:32.320 When met with some skepticism, Ramaswami argued that his candidacy 2:08:32.360 --> 2:08:35.360 could also dissuade Florida Governor Ron De Santis from entering 2:08:35.400 --> 2:08:37.840 the race. According to a source who was on the call. 2:08:38.080 --> 2:08:40.320 In the lead up to his announcement, Ramaswami would tell 2:08:40.360 --> 2:08:43.120 several other conservative activists that he believed that if he ran, 2:08:43.240 --> 2:08:46.200 it could stop DeSantis from running or impact his viability 2:08:46.240 --> 2:08:48.560 as a candidate if he did enter the race. Sources 2:08:48.600 --> 2:08:52.560 said his campaign has turbocharged Ramaswami's social media presence, with 2:08:52.600 --> 2:08:56.480 his number of followers on Twitter known as x nearly quadrupling, 2:08:56.480 --> 2:08:58.440 ballooning from a little over two hundred and thirty six 2:08:58.480 --> 2:09:00.960 thousand prior to announcing his candidate to see to now 2:09:01.000 --> 2:09:04.720 nearly a million followers just six months later. And so, 2:09:05.120 --> 2:09:06.800 you know, there's a couple of things that's interesting to 2:09:06.880 --> 2:09:09.960 me about that. One that he's sort of he pitched 2:09:10.040 --> 2:09:13.240 himself as I can stop DeSantis from running. And it's 2:09:13.280 --> 2:09:14.920 a little unclear to me if these are guys that 2:09:14.960 --> 2:09:18.120 specifically like hate Dysantis, or if it's more they don't 2:09:18.160 --> 2:09:20.600 want him running against Trump, they don't want like a 2:09:20.680 --> 2:09:22.080 fight between those two guys. 2:09:22.440 --> 2:09:23.839 Yeah, I'm saying. 2:09:23.720 --> 2:09:26.120 Postpone his political trajectory a little bit. 2:09:26.640 --> 2:09:29.080 And it was also, you know, before the debate, it 2:09:29.280 --> 2:09:31.800 was kind of looking like because he was he was 2:09:32.000 --> 2:09:36.760 creeping up on Dysantis yea, and like the last couple 2:09:36.800 --> 2:09:39.000 of polls before the debate, taking and beating him in 2:09:39.040 --> 2:09:42.680 a couple of states, which was interesting, you know, it 2:09:42.720 --> 2:09:45.160 was kind of looking like it was working. And then 2:09:45.200 --> 2:09:47.400 in the aftermath of the debate. We'll talk more about 2:09:47.400 --> 2:09:50.000 Poles later and we'll talk about other candidates, but it 2:09:50.040 --> 2:09:53.240 looks like he's kind of either plateaued or lost a 2:09:53.280 --> 2:09:57.040 bit of support, even though a significant number of Republicans, 2:09:57.120 --> 2:10:00.960 most in some polls think that he won the debate, 2:10:02.120 --> 2:10:04.720 which is interesting to me. Now, when you and I 2:10:04.760 --> 2:10:07.360 watched this, kind of the thing that that concerned us 2:10:07.480 --> 2:10:10.400 was that we both saw him as sort of messaging 2:10:10.480 --> 2:10:13.760 to the Nick Fuintes crowd. And what I mean by 2:10:13.760 --> 2:10:19.640 that is young conservative activists who are at least willing 2:10:19.680 --> 2:10:24.560 to dance with explicitly white nationalist ideas and who have 2:10:24.720 --> 2:10:28.120 some sympathies with the insurgent right, including with acts of 2:10:28.200 --> 2:10:31.240 violence committed by the insurgent right. You know, And obviously 2:10:31.320 --> 2:10:34.680 Vivek is not he's not Nick Fuintes, he's not a Nazi, 2:10:34.720 --> 2:10:37.240 he's not going to make jokes about the Holocaust. But 2:10:37.320 --> 2:10:40.040 he does talk about certain things in a similar way, 2:10:40.080 --> 2:10:43.640 particularly this idea of like the fact that immigration is 2:10:44.080 --> 2:10:50.840 altering our national character. He talks national which is something 2:10:50.880 --> 2:10:54.160 you hear a lot sometimes in more explicit terms from 2:10:54.200 --> 2:10:57.040 these like basically these Nazis right, So it's it's kind 2:10:57.080 --> 2:10:59.360 of a he's taking this term and he's washing it 2:10:59.440 --> 2:10:59.960 a little bit. 2:11:00.760 --> 2:11:04.200 Yeah, I mean he throughout the debate, he definitely was 2:11:04.280 --> 2:11:08.120 like very quick to betray himself as like the most 2:11:08.160 --> 2:11:10.960 conservative person on stage whenever there'd be a question about 2:11:11.040 --> 2:11:14.240 like like how extreme are you on this topic, and 2:11:14.920 --> 2:11:16.560 they didn't raise it that way, but that's essentially what 2:11:16.560 --> 2:11:19.160 they're asking. He was the first person to raise his 2:11:19.160 --> 2:11:21.840 hand every time, and he did it very enthusiastically. Many 2:11:21.880 --> 2:11:23.760 of the other people on stage had a lot of 2:11:23.800 --> 2:11:27.879 like half raised hands. Yeah, we both noticed that Dysantis, 2:11:28.000 --> 2:11:30.480 before raising his hand on a certain question, looked both 2:11:30.600 --> 2:11:33.760 ways across the stage to see who else was raising 2:11:33.800 --> 2:11:36.240 their hand before he raised his. But every single time 2:11:37.200 --> 2:11:40.160 Vivik was the first guy to like jolt his hand up. 2:11:40.200 --> 2:11:45.080 He was very it was very very intentionally positioning positioning 2:11:45.160 --> 2:11:48.960 himself as the most extreme option on the on the 2:11:48.960 --> 2:11:51.560 table there. And it wasn't just I think the content 2:11:52.360 --> 2:11:54.680 of what he was saying that that made kind of 2:11:54.800 --> 2:11:57.720 parallels between him and people like Nick Fuentez are just 2:11:57.800 --> 2:12:02.120 kind of younger, younger conservative of like content creators and influencers. 2:12:02.360 --> 2:12:05.600 It was also like the way he talked, like his 2:12:05.600 --> 2:12:08.920 his his speech pattern, how fast he was. 2:12:09.280 --> 2:12:10.600 Very high school debater. 2:12:11.400 --> 2:12:15.320 Yeah, yeah, it just it's it was reminiscent of all 2:12:15.360 --> 2:12:18.200 of like the horrible shit that I watched for my job, 2:12:18.240 --> 2:12:20.480 like whenever I've watched through a whole bunch of like 2:12:20.480 --> 2:12:22.919 like like zoomer conservative content creators. 2:12:23.000 --> 2:12:23.560 It was. 2:12:23.600 --> 2:12:26.000 It was that, but now on the debate stage. And 2:12:26.120 --> 2:12:27.880 this is something I even like kind of talked about 2:12:27.920 --> 2:12:30.400 in the last uh the Santis fash wave thing is 2:12:30.440 --> 2:12:33.520 like where we are about to hit this big wave 2:12:33.880 --> 2:12:36.080 of conservative zoomers who are going to be starting to 2:12:36.160 --> 2:12:39.240 run for office, who were raised in this media environment, 2:12:39.600 --> 2:12:41.960 and they're going to act like all of these kind 2:12:42.000 --> 2:12:44.400 of commentators that we see on like YouTube, that we 2:12:44.440 --> 2:12:46.680 see on Rumble, that we see on Twitch. They're going 2:12:46.760 --> 2:12:47.960 to be emulating that style. 2:12:48.240 --> 2:12:49.640 I want to put a pin in that because we're 2:12:49.640 --> 2:12:51.480 going to come back to this with a with some 2:12:51.600 --> 2:12:54.840 audio from Nick himself that expresses a similar opinion. But 2:12:54.880 --> 2:12:56.560 I want to note a couple of the things that 2:12:56.560 --> 2:12:59.440 he specifically expressed that I found, we found very fascy, 2:12:59.480 --> 2:13:02.000 and that I cansider to be really concerning. Top of 2:13:02.040 --> 2:13:04.400 the list is the fact that he has openly stated 2:13:04.400 --> 2:13:05.839 his desire to bomb Mexico. 2:13:06.320 --> 2:13:08.400 That is a real problem. 2:13:08.720 --> 2:13:08.840 Uh. 2:13:09.000 --> 2:13:11.400 And the degree to which a significant number of folks 2:13:11.400 --> 2:13:14.000 on that stage weren't completely willing to put that off 2:13:14.000 --> 2:13:18.760 the table is deeply concerning. That's not great, that's a 2:13:18.960 --> 2:13:22.040 that's a Now. The upside is that, like, maybe that's 2:13:22.120 --> 2:13:26.840 crazy enough that there's no chance Independence will vote for it, 2:13:27.080 --> 2:13:29.960 But you never fully want to say that in America. 2:13:30.040 --> 2:13:32.720 There's no way to know, no way to know whatsoever. 2:13:34.720 --> 2:13:37.640 The other thing is that, you know he has so 2:13:37.800 --> 2:13:40.680 Nick and a lot of these guys on the fascist 2:13:40.720 --> 2:13:45.160 youth right, they're huge into removing people from being able 2:13:45.200 --> 2:13:48.200 to vote. You know, Nick himself is basically a monarchist, right, 2:13:48.280 --> 2:13:49.960 like he wants a Catholic monarchist. 2:13:50.160 --> 2:13:51.760 He's like a Catholic monarchist fascist. 2:13:51.880 --> 2:13:52.080 Yeah. 2:13:52.080 --> 2:13:53.960 And by the way, this is not a fringe opinion. 2:13:54.560 --> 2:13:57.400 Michael Knowles, who is one of the major personalities that 2:13:57.480 --> 2:14:00.000 the Daily Wire, one of the largest conservative news organists 2:14:00.440 --> 2:14:02.600 in the country. Has just recently went on a rant 2:14:02.600 --> 2:14:05.680 talking about all the benefits of monarchy and protecting freedoms, 2:14:05.920 --> 2:14:08.600 by which he means the property of rich people. 2:14:08.960 --> 2:14:10.880 Knowles is also a tradcat justice Yeah. 2:14:11.320 --> 2:14:16.040 Knowles is also a Catholic traditionalist. Yeah, and so these guys, 2:14:16.080 --> 2:14:17.880 you know, they both talk about that. And the thing 2:14:17.880 --> 2:14:20.840 that Vivek is doing that is sort of the more 2:14:21.000 --> 2:14:23.480 acceptable because you can't get up on stage yet at 2:14:23.520 --> 2:14:25.480 a Republican debate and talk about the need for a 2:14:25.560 --> 2:14:28.880 king right, but you can talk about the need to 2:14:29.080 --> 2:14:33.280 cut people out of the franchise right. You know, Nick 2:14:33.440 --> 2:14:36.560 being much more extreme and having the freedom to be 2:14:36.600 --> 2:14:39.320 more extreme, talks a lot about repealing the Nineteenth Amendment, 2:14:39.400 --> 2:14:42.160 taking the right to vote away from women. Vivek is 2:14:42.200 --> 2:14:43.720 not going to say that, but he did say this. 2:14:44.240 --> 2:14:46.879 Young people don't value a country that they just inherit. 2:14:47.200 --> 2:14:49.240 That's why I've said every high school senior, I believe 2:14:49.280 --> 2:14:51.120 she'd have to pass the same civics test that an 2:14:51.160 --> 2:14:53.360 immigrant in this country has to pass in order to 2:14:53.400 --> 2:14:55.560 become a voting citizen of the country. If that eighteen 2:14:55.600 --> 2:14:58.000 year old wants all the privileges of citizenship as well. 2:14:59.200 --> 2:15:01.640 This is deeply con learning for a number of reasons, 2:15:02.080 --> 2:15:05.800 including the fact that any barrier you're put to voting 2:15:05.960 --> 2:15:08.920 is going to reduce the number of people, specifically people 2:15:08.920 --> 2:15:11.400 who are likely to vote for Democrats who do it. 2:15:12.160 --> 2:15:15.280 But number two, like who gets to determine those tests? Well, 2:15:15.280 --> 2:15:19.080 we're already seeing the way in which the state positions, 2:15:19.120 --> 2:15:22.520 and like states like Florida on education are fundamentally changing 2:15:22.560 --> 2:15:25.160 the amount of information kids are allowed to get, they 2:15:25.200 --> 2:15:27.920 also theoretically would have the ability to fundamentally change the 2:15:28.000 --> 2:15:31.320 nature of this test, you know, so that you know, 2:15:31.400 --> 2:15:35.040 you have to express certain opinions and be inculcated in 2:15:35.080 --> 2:15:36.760 certain opinions in order to be able to vote. 2:15:36.760 --> 2:15:38.360 This is a real problem. 2:15:38.880 --> 2:15:41.040 Vivek, you know, concerns us both for this. Again. 2:15:41.080 --> 2:15:43.120 We will talk about his kind of popularity in a second, 2:15:43.160 --> 2:15:46.800 but I wanted to because when we both kind of felt, 2:15:47.040 --> 2:15:49.120 you know, this is a guy who has a lot 2:15:49.160 --> 2:15:52.320 of that fuintes energy he's bringing. And so I looked like, 2:15:52.400 --> 2:15:56.120 what is Nick been saying about this guy? And I 2:15:56.200 --> 2:15:59.280 found this video from a website you're gonna hate called 2:15:59.360 --> 2:16:06.720 Zoomer Nash News Garrison. It's a substack that just a Yeah, 2:16:06.880 --> 2:16:10.040 it's like a lot of clips from Yeah Nick Show 2:16:10.120 --> 2:16:13.160 and stuff. So we're gonna we're gonna start watching this 2:16:13.360 --> 2:16:16.800 Zoomer National News clip because there's a couple of points 2:16:16.800 --> 2:16:18.640 that he makes in the first couple of first few 2:16:18.680 --> 2:16:23.160 minutes of it that I think are are unfortunately worth 2:16:23.360 --> 2:16:28.240 listening to and then discussing and then being unhappy. 2:16:28.800 --> 2:16:30.960 Yeah, the only person that is going to be good 2:16:30.960 --> 2:16:31.680 for is Vivak. 2:16:32.520 --> 2:16:35.280 It's bad for DeSantis because he can't confront Trump. It's 2:16:35.280 --> 2:16:38.240 bad for everybody else for the same reason. The only 2:16:38.280 --> 2:16:40.200 person that's good for is Vivak, who's going to get 2:16:40.200 --> 2:16:42.840 a bigger stage. And that's why I wanted to talk 2:16:42.879 --> 2:16:48.000 about tonight because it's interesting about the Vak. He's an 2:16:48.000 --> 2:16:54.000 interesting phenomenon. He's a child of immigrants from India. 2:16:54.440 --> 2:16:56.359 I think his parents are from India. 2:16:56.040 --> 2:17:00.480 And they moved to Ohio and he became a self 2:17:00.520 --> 2:17:03.280 made nearly a billionaire. I think he's got an eight 2:17:03.360 --> 2:17:09.240 figure net worth, nine figure net worth. I read on 2:17:09.320 --> 2:17:12.240 Wikipedi he's got nine hundred and fifty million dollars. So 2:17:12.280 --> 2:17:16.240 he's a self made nearly a billionaire, first generation Asian 2:17:16.280 --> 2:17:18.760 immigrant who as far as I know, didn't really have 2:17:18.879 --> 2:17:21.200 a much of a public profile or any kind of 2:17:21.200 --> 2:17:25.199 a political presence, and just took the country by storm 2:17:25.280 --> 2:17:28.800 with a viral social media campaign. I think people just 2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:31.560 like what he says, at least that's what it appears 2:17:31.600 --> 2:17:35.920 to be. And he's been controversial. I think a lot 2:17:35.920 --> 2:17:37.959 of people like him. I think even people that don't 2:17:38.040 --> 2:17:40.200 like him have commended him on his campaign, which has 2:17:40.240 --> 2:17:44.480 been successful. He's competitive with DeSantis. DeSantis had a bigger 2:17:44.480 --> 2:17:47.560 war chest than Trump. He had a bigger war chester 2:17:47.600 --> 2:17:50.760 than any governor in the United States has ever had. 2:17:50.800 --> 2:17:53.800 I think he had raised two hundred million dollars in 2:17:53.879 --> 2:17:56.960 the last cycle, and he had the support of the 2:17:57.040 --> 2:18:01.360 Jews in Israel, and oh his mine to governor and 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:05.680 back maybe the next best known politician in the race 2:18:05.760 --> 2:18:08.800 next to Trump and governor of a major state. And 2:18:09.200 --> 2:18:11.480 so in other words, he's got all these advantages, and 2:18:12.080 --> 2:18:15.840 this other guy who really started from scratch is now 2:18:15.920 --> 2:18:19.720 competitive with him. And I'll say too, it is unfortunate 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:25.560 his look because you know, I know that probably a 2:18:25.560 --> 2:18:28.160 lot of Republicans are not totally on board with like 2:18:29.280 --> 2:18:33.119 Hindu Indian and I'm not making any kind of comment 2:18:33.240 --> 2:18:36.440 on that. I think that's just how things are, just 2:18:36.440 --> 2:18:38.680 like with Bobby Jindal or some of these other guys 2:18:38.680 --> 2:18:42.280 that ran. When I see an Indian guy running with 2:18:42.320 --> 2:18:46.200 a name like vivek Ramaswami, let's not pretend I think 2:18:46.200 --> 2:18:49.600 that's that's also a disadvantage for him, probably because the 2:18:49.680 --> 2:18:51.320 Republican voter base is all white. 2:18:51.320 --> 2:18:52.520 It's ninety percent white. 2:18:52.520 --> 2:18:56.480 And I know that they're they. 2:18:56.480 --> 2:19:00.320 Undertake great pains to convince the world they're not racist 2:19:01.200 --> 2:19:04.240 or xenophobic or something like that. But you know, I'm 2:19:04.280 --> 2:19:07.240 sure they are not in love with that idea. Quite frankly, 2:19:07.320 --> 2:19:09.600 I'm not in love with that idea. I want a 2:19:09.680 --> 2:19:13.240 Christian to be president, not a Hindu. And I also 2:19:13.320 --> 2:19:15.920 would prefer a president whose name I could pronounce, like 2:19:16.040 --> 2:19:18.960 Joe Biden, not vivek Ramaswami. 2:19:20.879 --> 2:19:24.400 Now, all right, that's quite a line from Nick. I 2:19:24.400 --> 2:19:26.800 think what he's actually saying there, Like, I think that's 2:19:26.879 --> 2:19:30.840 that's a joke, right, That's quite a line from Yeah, 2:19:30.879 --> 2:19:33.000 I think he's making he's making a little bit of 2:19:33.040 --> 2:19:36.000 a bit there, I don't think. But but and that 2:19:36.040 --> 2:19:38.879 becomes a little bit clear a bit later on, because 2:19:38.920 --> 2:19:41.080 he he talks about you know, he's talking about there 2:19:41.160 --> 2:19:45.240 kind of both how impressive, you know, objectively, the success 2:19:45.280 --> 2:19:47.560 of avex campaign has been, and how it points to 2:19:47.760 --> 2:19:49.480 the fact that he has done some stuff right, even 2:19:49.480 --> 2:19:52.240 while he's saying I don't think he can win with 2:19:52.320 --> 2:19:54.280 the Republican voter base the way that it is, which 2:19:54.320 --> 2:19:56.320 I think is you know, partly shown by kind of 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:58.640 some of these polls that that come out showing him 2:19:58.680 --> 2:20:01.280 losing support. But he he comes in a little bit later, 2:20:01.280 --> 2:20:04.080 a couple of minutes later, and he talks about why 2:20:04.200 --> 2:20:07.920 he likes Vivik, what he finds intriguing about him, and 2:20:07.959 --> 2:20:09.840 I think that this is kind of valuable to hear. 2:20:10.320 --> 2:20:12.640 It's really more like an advertising pitch. It's like a 2:20:12.680 --> 2:20:17.200 marketing pitch. It's the it's the perfect stereotype of like 2:20:17.240 --> 2:20:20.880 a canned used car salesman political pitch. That's what they're 2:20:20.920 --> 2:20:24.160 all like, Mike penns, Chris Christy. You could say they're 2:20:24.240 --> 2:20:26.760 like full of shit, like That's how it would characterize it. 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:34.120 They're like another full of shit conventional, polished politician. And 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:39.680 they also all went through the steps. They're one state 2:20:39.720 --> 2:20:43.080 wide elections, you know, they're all governors or senators, Chris Christy, 2:20:43.200 --> 2:20:48.520 Nikki Haley, Asa Hutchinson, Bergham, DeSantis, they're all governors. Tim 2:20:48.520 --> 2:20:53.680 Scott's a senator, and they have that canned full of 2:20:53.720 --> 2:20:57.879 shit polish political thing. Both Yang and Vivek not only 2:20:57.920 --> 2:21:01.880 are they not white, they're Asian and children of immigrants, 2:21:02.320 --> 2:21:04.680 but there's also something that characterizes them that they're kind 2:21:04.680 --> 2:21:08.240 of like a new type of campaign where it's super smart. 2:21:09.240 --> 2:21:11.720 When you listen to Vivek, it sounds a lot more 2:21:11.720 --> 2:21:14.280 like a podcast. It sounds a lot more like a 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:19.920 polemical commentator like me, or like Tucker or like whoever, 2:21:20.120 --> 2:21:23.040 like Alex Jones for that matter, although that's a specific 2:21:23.120 --> 2:21:25.840 sort of thing, but maybe you understand what I mean. 2:21:27.200 --> 2:21:32.640 They're they're almost talking like they're talking to American people 2:21:32.640 --> 2:21:33.920 who have a higher IQ. 2:21:34.800 --> 2:21:40.040 So sure, sure, buddy, your average podcast listener, your average 2:21:40.120 --> 2:21:41.560 high IQ podcast. 2:21:41.760 --> 2:21:45.280 This sounds smart like a podcaster, right, you know, we 2:21:45.360 --> 2:21:47.000 all know that about podcasters. 2:21:47.280 --> 2:21:49.720 It's it's it's super interesting that he made the exact 2:21:49.720 --> 2:21:56.840 same uh like observation that we did well when watching 2:21:56.879 --> 2:22:00.119 the debate, we like turn to each other. He's like, ohh, 2:22:00.280 --> 2:22:01.560 he's doing nick flood tests. 2:22:01.680 --> 2:22:04.000 Yeah, no, and Nick Flinn test has has a similar 2:22:04.080 --> 2:22:08.440 idea about him. So, you know, I think he's he 2:22:08.480 --> 2:22:11.240 really does worry me. You know, as we've stated his 2:22:11.240 --> 2:22:15.400 his polling isn't better in the wake of the debate. Yeah, 2:22:15.400 --> 2:22:18.480 but his personal brand has never been better, and that 2:22:19.000 --> 2:22:21.520 he's everywhere every big network's been having him on to 2:22:21.560 --> 2:22:25.000 talk about shit like this has increased his visibility not 2:22:25.080 --> 2:22:29.120 just on social media but as a political commenter and 2:22:29.200 --> 2:22:31.200 kind of the things that he's saying, because they are 2:22:31.200 --> 2:22:34.480 so much more extreme than stuff you know, even a 2:22:34.520 --> 2:22:37.000 guy like Pince was willing to say, I think that's 2:22:37.040 --> 2:22:38.840 a real problem. I think it's a problem that's going 2:22:38.879 --> 2:22:40.600 to be with us for a while because he's very young. 2:22:41.040 --> 2:22:43.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean based on some of the poll stuff, Like, 2:22:43.680 --> 2:22:48.200 I'm not worried about him as someone who I think 2:22:48.240 --> 2:22:51.320 will be president. That's not my concern. My concern is 2:22:51.560 --> 2:22:54.959 how he's going to be both influential and he's Yeah, 2:22:55.000 --> 2:22:57.640 he's setting himself up to be influential, and I guess 2:22:57.680 --> 2:23:00.320 even even more so, it's he's like an indo cater 2:23:00.440 --> 2:23:02.440 of what the future of the GOP is going to be. 2:23:02.760 --> 2:23:05.320 And that's the big thing that is like causing me 2:23:05.879 --> 2:23:08.200 concern because, Yeah, it's the type of thing I've been 2:23:08.240 --> 2:23:11.320 thinking about more and more the past year as we've 2:23:11.320 --> 2:23:14.080 had our first wave of like zoomer candidates and also 2:23:14.120 --> 2:23:17.120 you know millennial candidates that are they starting to fill 2:23:17.200 --> 2:23:18.720 up Philip offices. 2:23:19.600 --> 2:23:22.120 Yeah, and I you know, I looked into I went 2:23:22.120 --> 2:23:24.480 to Nick's telegram too, because I kind of wanted to 2:23:24.480 --> 2:23:26.240 see is there more that he's been saying, and he 2:23:26.320 --> 2:23:29.320 has actually been sharing a lot about Vivec. One of 2:23:29.360 --> 2:23:31.360 the things I found was just like Vivek has called 2:23:31.400 --> 2:23:34.240 specifically for Fuintes to be unbanned from Twitter. 2:23:34.600 --> 2:23:36.560 Nick is one of the few. 2:23:36.360 --> 2:23:39.000 People Elon is like, I am not willing to truck 2:23:39.000 --> 2:23:42.480 with this motherfucker keep him off of my website. Uh, 2:23:42.800 --> 2:23:45.240 And Vivek is is really not okay with that, which 2:23:45.240 --> 2:23:48.720 does point to, like, you don't specify that like most 2:23:48.800 --> 2:23:52.240 Republicans kind of prefer to believe pretend that Nick doesn't 2:23:52.240 --> 2:23:54.680 exist in public. So the fact that he's going to 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:57.440 bad for him like this does point to the fact 2:23:57.440 --> 2:24:01.880 that he sees value and he sees a political future 2:24:02.080 --> 2:24:04.280 and the people that Nick speaks to. 2:24:04.400 --> 2:24:06.359 For himself, right, this is. 2:24:08.320 --> 2:24:11.760 He's like very aware of this side of the political interests, 2:24:11.920 --> 2:24:15.480 Like he knows what their talking points are, He's familiar 2:24:15.480 --> 2:24:18.480 with how they speak, like he he's he's able to 2:24:18.560 --> 2:24:21.959 understand that this is like an actual, like political contingent. 2:24:22.280 --> 2:24:25.039 They may not be as reliable in showing up to 2:24:25.080 --> 2:24:28.320 the polls, but it is, you know, as more and 2:24:28.360 --> 2:24:33.640 more boomers, Uh die off, Sorry, no offense. Some of 2:24:34.440 --> 2:24:36.959 these are the people that are some of these are 2:24:36.959 --> 2:24:39.240 the people that are gonna, you know, start filling in 2:24:39.920 --> 2:24:41.120 filling in the voting gaps. 2:24:42.200 --> 2:24:44.199 The other thing that he shares a lot from Vivec, 2:24:44.280 --> 2:24:47.000 and there was like the specifically a clip from the 2:24:47.000 --> 2:24:50.560 debate where Vivec talks about like cutting aid to Israel, right, 2:24:50.600 --> 2:24:56.200 and obviously being the guy, we're not We're not pro 2:24:56.360 --> 2:24:59.120 the Israeli States. So I'm not against that from a 2:24:59.240 --> 2:25:01.320 certain point of view, but I'm not for the same 2:25:01.360 --> 2:25:02.200 reasons that Nick. 2:25:03.600 --> 2:25:04.960 Very different reasons. 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:08.960 Yeah, but it is worth noting that, like that's another 2:25:09.040 --> 2:25:14.879 reason why Nick likes this guy, right, So yeah, that's 2:25:14.959 --> 2:25:16.840 that's kind of the core of the vivic stuff I 2:25:16.840 --> 2:25:18.360 wanted to talk about. The next thing to bring up 2:25:18.400 --> 2:25:20.800 is sort of how shit polling after this now, as 2:25:20.840 --> 2:25:23.680 we've noted, there's been like, you know, I found an 2:25:23.760 --> 2:25:27.600 MSN article that was a I believe it was actually 2:25:27.640 --> 2:25:32.480 just them republishing a Washington Examiner article. Lovey, it's really 2:25:32.560 --> 2:25:34.959 solid to hear that Washington Examiner is kind of a 2:25:35.040 --> 2:25:38.840 right wing rag. They analyzed five poles taken just before 2:25:38.879 --> 2:25:42.000 and after the debate. Trump saw a decrease in two 2:25:42.120 --> 2:25:45.800 of those poles and no change in the other three. 2:25:46.040 --> 2:25:48.680 This decrease, it's not insignificant that the two poles show 2:25:48.760 --> 2:25:50.920 him both bush him down something like six points, which 2:25:50.959 --> 2:25:53.800 is not nothing, right, Yeah, but that he's still up 2:25:53.840 --> 2:25:57.640 by around forty So it's also not like a seed change. 2:25:57.760 --> 2:26:00.960 You know, it does suggest a couple of things. One 2:26:01.000 --> 2:26:04.080 of the things that suggests is that there is value 2:26:04.160 --> 2:26:06.720 to him, especially since it looks like he has lost 2:26:07.360 --> 2:26:09.240 some of his ability to message and some of his 2:26:09.320 --> 2:26:11.720 ability to rile people up because of the way social 2:26:11.760 --> 2:26:15.040 media has changed. He doesn't really use Twitter anymore. You know, 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:16.440 he made a post recently, but. 2:26:16.400 --> 2:26:19.000 He made the first posting in years. 2:26:19.240 --> 2:26:23.440 Yeah, got Elon very excited. But he can't really and 2:26:23.600 --> 2:26:25.920 and he you know, he loves to rant on truth 2:26:26.000 --> 2:26:29.760 social but it doesn't break through the same way stuff 2:26:29.800 --> 2:26:33.240 on Twitter did, and it's possible nothing on Twitter can 2:26:33.280 --> 2:26:35.879 break through that way anymore because of how much changed 2:26:35.879 --> 2:26:38.240 it is. You know, it's not the same Twitter that 2:26:38.280 --> 2:26:39.039 he wrote. 2:26:38.760 --> 2:26:41.560 Absolutely, it's not the same Twitter it was in twenty fifteen, 2:26:41.640 --> 2:26:43.600 twenty six now not even the same Twitter it was 2:26:43.600 --> 2:26:47.320 in twenty twenty. Like, no, it is no then severely 2:26:47.360 --> 2:26:51.080 altered as as a platform and how it affects real 2:26:51.200 --> 2:26:52.320 so real world events. 2:26:52.680 --> 2:26:52.879 You know. 2:26:52.920 --> 2:26:54.720 I think the thing that you're seeing here is that 2:26:54.800 --> 2:26:57.840 he does have his core, which is, you know, a 2:26:57.879 --> 2:27:00.000 third or more of the GOP who will be right 2:27:00.160 --> 2:27:03.200 or die for the rest of their lives presumably, but 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:05.960 there is a softer chunk of support that is eroded 2:27:06.040 --> 2:27:08.000 by him the fact that he's not in the limelight, 2:27:08.360 --> 2:27:10.680 the fact that he wasn't up there, you know, slinging 2:27:10.760 --> 2:27:14.440 mud and arguing and you know, talking with these other 2:27:14.480 --> 2:27:18.080 candidates and so yeah, this is this is kind of 2:27:18.080 --> 2:27:21.280 a thing you could It's probably a mistake. I'm not 2:27:21.320 --> 2:27:23.240 saying a mistake from a point of view being good 2:27:23.240 --> 2:27:25.000 for the country, but a mistake in terms of like 2:27:25.280 --> 2:27:28.400 his campaign that he wasn't up there, which is kind 2:27:28.440 --> 2:27:32.480 of worth acknowledging and probably worth continuing to study, and 2:27:32.520 --> 2:27:35.400 it may be it may have the effect of pushing 2:27:35.480 --> 2:27:37.520 him to take part in some of the other debates. 2:27:37.560 --> 2:27:39.560 DeSantis has said he thinks Trump will be at the 2:27:39.600 --> 2:27:40.160 third debate. 2:27:40.480 --> 2:27:41.040 Who knows. 2:27:42.600 --> 2:27:46.160 In terms of how everyone else did, DeSantis went up 2:27:46.200 --> 2:27:48.400 a little bit about a two point bump, which is, 2:27:48.920 --> 2:27:52.600 you know, not terrible, but it's also not significant, especially 2:27:52.600 --> 2:27:55.480 given the size of Trump's lead. It's not the kind 2:27:55.480 --> 2:27:57.560 of given the amount of cash burn he's been going through, 2:27:57.560 --> 2:28:00.560 it's not the kind of rays he needed to keep 2:28:00.600 --> 2:28:01.520 his campaign vibe. 2:28:01.520 --> 2:28:05.360 It was what he did not do a performance that 2:28:05.480 --> 2:28:07.240 people were kind of expecting him to do, and I 2:28:07.240 --> 2:28:09.280 think everyone kind of assumed he would tried really hard 2:28:09.280 --> 2:28:12.199 to come out as the as like the obvious front runner, 2:28:12.360 --> 2:28:14.879 and he kind of flopped at the debate in at 2:28:14.959 --> 2:28:18.960 least in my opinion, he came off as very like muted, 2:28:19.280 --> 2:28:21.680 very like low key. He didn't he didn't really say 2:28:21.760 --> 2:28:23.640 much one way or the other. He was so obsessed 2:28:23.680 --> 2:28:26.560 with with what other people like, trying to make sure 2:28:26.560 --> 2:28:28.160 that what he was saying was okay based on what 2:28:28.200 --> 2:28:30.800 everyone else was saying on stage. It was very weird. 2:28:31.360 --> 2:28:34.440 It was very weird and not the kind of energy 2:28:34.879 --> 2:28:40.080 that suggests I am building a political machine, right, yeah, 2:28:40.160 --> 2:28:44.560 and carry me into office. Pence went up by about 2:28:44.600 --> 2:28:49.119 four points to seven percent of voter support. Nicky Haley 2:28:49.200 --> 2:28:52.120 jumped about five points. And I would say I think 2:28:52.600 --> 2:28:57.920 DeSantis and Pence and probably Haley have are in here 2:28:57.959 --> 2:29:01.800 because they really think they can win. You know, there's 2:29:01.840 --> 2:29:03.880 a couple of those governors and stuff whose names I've 2:29:03.879 --> 2:29:05.240 I've already forgotten that. 2:29:05.320 --> 2:29:06.160 So nobody knows. 2:29:07.360 --> 2:29:10.160 Yeah, is like everyone knows Chris Christy is not going 2:29:10.200 --> 2:29:11.800 to be the president like we know, and he's not. 2:29:12.080 --> 2:29:14.280 He's not really He's running to get a TV show 2:29:14.320 --> 2:29:17.879 on MSN, right, maybe a book deal too. I guess 2:29:17.920 --> 2:29:20.560 it's possible that's part of Haley's ambition to I don't really, 2:29:20.760 --> 2:29:22.280 I don't have his greatest sense for what's going on. 2:29:23.120 --> 2:29:26.640 Yeah, It's how they're all treating Trump is interesting because 2:29:26.840 --> 2:29:29.840 they're also all like kind of auditioning to be vice president, 2:29:29.959 --> 2:29:32.280 but some of them don't want that job because they're 2:29:32.320 --> 2:29:34.560 they're being like very like like anti Trump. On stage, 2:29:34.720 --> 2:29:37.800 the most most people were soft to Trump. 2:29:38.240 --> 2:29:42.640 Yeah, and I think Vivek was both auditioning for like 2:29:42.680 --> 2:29:45.800 the future of his political I don't think he reasonably 2:29:45.840 --> 2:29:48.680 expects to be president this election. I think he may 2:29:48.720 --> 2:29:50.240 think he can win that in the future. And I 2:29:50.240 --> 2:29:51.959 think he sees this as look, I'm young, and I'm 2:29:51.959 --> 2:29:54.360 going to start building and he and if that's the case, 2:29:54.400 --> 2:29:56.080 then he has done the first thing that he would 2:29:56.080 --> 2:29:58.039 need to do to be a real candidate one day, 2:29:58.080 --> 2:30:00.480 which is make a national name for him self as 2:30:00.520 --> 2:30:03.560 a guy in politics. I think he may be auditioning 2:30:03.680 --> 2:30:07.920 for vice president. And Trump recently commented like, yeah, you know, 2:30:08.000 --> 2:30:10.000 I'm not against the idea necessarily. 2:30:10.440 --> 2:30:13.040 Yeah, he said he was like impressed with his performance 2:30:13.080 --> 2:30:16.160 at the debaters or something along those lines. 2:30:16.680 --> 2:30:17.160 Yeah. 2:30:17.200 --> 2:30:21.760 And I mean the immediate reaction from almost almost every 2:30:21.840 --> 2:30:26.720 kind of big like influential, millennial gen x kind of 2:30:26.800 --> 2:30:29.879 right wing content creator person. They were all saying that 2:30:30.360 --> 2:30:33.280 the VEC like very clearly won. Yeah, like all of 2:30:33.400 --> 2:30:35.520 all of all of the Daily Wire people were very 2:30:35.680 --> 2:30:39.119 we're very pro the VEC and kind of riding that train. 2:30:39.560 --> 2:30:39.640 Ye. 2:30:40.480 --> 2:30:45.199 Musk recently, even even even even before the debate, switched 2:30:45.280 --> 2:30:49.200 sides from from being the Dysantis guy to being the guy. 2:30:50.959 --> 2:30:53.160 So it was a lot of a lot of like 2:30:53.640 --> 2:30:57.440 the intellectual dark right type type stuff of like like 2:30:57.600 --> 2:31:02.280 online tech conservative. They were all very quick to jump 2:31:02.320 --> 2:31:04.920 on the yeah, the X train, and based on his 2:31:05.000 --> 2:31:08.680 performance at the debate, they were happy with his overall 2:31:09.320 --> 2:31:10.959 demeanor and messaging. 2:31:11.160 --> 2:31:13.680 Yeah and. 2:31:16.879 --> 2:31:17.199 Yeah. 2:31:17.240 --> 2:31:20.640 So you know, again, as it kind of stands, has 2:31:20.680 --> 2:31:24.080 anything changed, Well, yes and no, Like the overall sweep 2:31:24.120 --> 2:31:27.800 of the primary, Donald Trump is so far ahead that 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:31.920 it does seem unlikely that he's going to lose. But well, 2:31:32.040 --> 2:31:34.279 we've also seen it's possible for him to bleed support 2:31:34.360 --> 2:31:37.920 and if you remember far back to twenty fifteen, twenty 2:31:37.959 --> 2:31:40.440 sixteen when he was in these debates with the other 2:31:40.440 --> 2:31:44.000 Republican candidates, he didn't really bleed support, like he was 2:31:44.360 --> 2:31:48.760 very consistently moving forward. So that is interesting. That does 2:31:48.800 --> 2:31:57.760 suggest some things about how the situation has changed. And yeah, 2:31:57.840 --> 2:32:01.400 it's also interesting you know, Poles kind of show that 2:32:02.360 --> 2:32:05.880 voters did. And maybe one of the reasons why Vivik's 2:32:05.879 --> 2:32:10.400 performance didn't boost his campaign overall is that he entered 2:32:10.440 --> 2:32:13.240 into it with the highest expectations of any of the 2:32:13.280 --> 2:32:17.560 debaters among like Republican voters. Probably this is because you know, 2:32:17.640 --> 2:32:19.480 in the speeches and stuff he's been given before. He's 2:32:19.520 --> 2:32:22.120 a debate guy, like that's obvious about him anytime you 2:32:22.160 --> 2:32:25.320 hear him talk. So I think people weren't expecting him 2:32:25.400 --> 2:32:27.720 to do well, and so maybe it didn't. You know, 2:32:28.000 --> 2:32:30.560 if people are expecting you to perform well and then 2:32:30.600 --> 2:32:33.480 you win, it's not as impressive as a you know, 2:32:33.480 --> 2:32:35.720 if you kind of come come out or left field there. 2:32:35.720 --> 2:32:38.760 So maybe that's part of why he's not seeing stuff. 2:32:39.440 --> 2:32:41.040 One of the things that's interesting to me is the 2:32:41.400 --> 2:32:43.640 stuff that was talked about at the debate compared to 2:32:43.840 --> 2:32:49.680 what actually Republican voters care about. The thing that came 2:32:49.760 --> 2:32:52.200 up first in the debate is the thing that is 2:32:52.280 --> 2:32:55.360 number one, getting inflation or costs under control. Obvious that 2:32:55.360 --> 2:32:57.400 that's going to be top of the list for a 2:32:57.440 --> 2:33:02.080 lot of voters. Forty four percent of Republicans consider controlling 2:33:02.120 --> 2:33:06.080 immigration to be a primary concern, which did come up 2:33:06.200 --> 2:33:08.560 a bit. One of the things that pissed off a 2:33:08.600 --> 2:33:10.280 lot of the Daily Wire crew is the fact that 2:33:10.320 --> 2:33:13.600 there wasn't really a lot of talk about wokeness or 2:33:13.600 --> 2:33:17.039 trans people during the debate, because that kind of shit 2:33:17.240 --> 2:33:20.560 is not like fighting liberalism and wokeness and President Biden 2:33:20.600 --> 2:33:24.320 like it all gets kind of like lumped together about 2:33:24.320 --> 2:33:27.000 a third, you know, of the electorate. That's their their 2:33:27.040 --> 2:33:29.920 big concern among Republicans. 2:33:30.320 --> 2:33:33.880 It's primary for it. It's primarily for like online clicks 2:33:33.920 --> 2:33:37.000 and for driving engagement on whatever Facebook thing you want 2:33:37.000 --> 2:33:39.640 to do to harass the school board. It is not 2:33:39.959 --> 2:33:44.320 the uh, the prime focus of the presidential. 2:33:44.480 --> 2:33:47.360 Yes, and like the issues with trans people and stuff 2:33:47.400 --> 2:33:49.879 on its own does not come up here as like 2:33:49.920 --> 2:33:53.960 a major It's nobody's primary concern among Republican voters. Like 2:33:54.000 --> 2:33:57.160 it's these weirdo freaks on the internet. Which isn't to 2:33:57.200 --> 2:34:00.240 say that like they have good attitudes towards that, but like, yeah, 2:34:00.240 --> 2:34:01.520 it makes sense that that's not going to be what 2:34:01.600 --> 2:34:03.840 you put front and center in the debate. One thing 2:34:03.920 --> 2:34:07.400 that's interesting to me is that both election security and 2:34:07.440 --> 2:34:10.520 limiting abortion, which are huge issues and we're big parts 2:34:10.560 --> 2:34:14.240 of the debate, are very much minor side show issues 2:34:14.280 --> 2:34:17.880 for voters. About ten percent of voters consider of Republican 2:34:18.000 --> 2:34:22.040 voters consider election integrity their primary concern. About six percent 2:34:22.520 --> 2:34:27.000 considerate a limiting abortion a top priority, which is teeny right, 2:34:27.080 --> 2:34:29.160 Like it's not a popular thing. They just have to 2:34:29.600 --> 2:34:31.640 because of that hardcore of the base. They have to 2:34:31.680 --> 2:34:32.400 signal for it. 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:36.800 The Veck was the only first on stage to claim 2:34:36.879 --> 2:34:38.880 that climate change is not real. 2:34:39.320 --> 2:34:43.279 Yes, yes, yes, which was interesting, especially as this hurricane 2:34:43.520 --> 2:34:49.000 batters Florida. And that's deeply negative too, right, the complete 2:34:49.000 --> 2:34:52.400 denial of reality. It doesn't take long, and Vivek did 2:34:52.440 --> 2:34:55.600 not do this, but it's not a long journey to 2:34:55.800 --> 2:34:59.040 go from I don't believe climate change is real to 2:35:00.160 --> 2:35:02.960 I think those fires were started with lasers from space, 2:35:03.200 --> 2:35:07.720 you know, and they're and versions of that, right, which 2:35:07.760 --> 2:35:10.920 is deeply concerning to me. But uh yeah, that's uh, 2:35:11.000 --> 2:35:14.480 that's you know, the Republican debate and and Vivek Ramaswami 2:35:14.560 --> 2:35:17.720 that's kind of uh are our thinking on him? As 2:35:17.760 --> 2:35:23.520 he embraces Nick Fuintes, thought, boy, I don't love saying that. 2:35:23.800 --> 2:35:27.160 Yeah no, But like my main my my main takeaway 2:35:27.160 --> 2:35:32.240 from this debate was that this was based on the performance. 2:35:33.280 --> 2:35:35.360 I'm just gonna cut out, have danil cut off from 2:35:35.360 --> 2:35:37.840 that my main performance. My main opinion was this was 2:35:37.920 --> 2:35:42.840 based and then yeah, there we go. Garrison's debate analysis, 2:35:42.959 --> 2:35:45.240 thank you. 2:35:44.480 --> 2:35:51.320 Please, based on the VEX performance was that this really 2:35:51.440 --> 2:35:53.720 was like the first glimpse of the types of like 2:35:53.800 --> 2:35:57.280 long term results of the al Right era in like 2:35:57.400 --> 2:36:00.680 actual like organized politics. Yes, it's it's, it's it is. 2:36:00.800 --> 2:36:02.480 It is. It is our first peek at like this 2:36:02.640 --> 2:36:06.920 upcoming online conservative wave of zoomers and millennials who are 2:36:06.920 --> 2:36:09.320 you know, between my age and Robert's age, who are 2:36:09.320 --> 2:36:11.959 gonna be running for office in the next ten years, 2:36:11.959 --> 2:36:16.280 who were heavily influenced by the online alright era. And 2:36:16.320 --> 2:36:18.320 that's very worrying. I mean, we saw a little bit 2:36:18.360 --> 2:36:23.520 of that with DeSantis' campaign staff sharing videos, videos that 2:36:23.560 --> 2:36:26.360 were approved by like a lot of people in his staff. 2:36:26.440 --> 2:36:28.520 It wasn't it wasn't just one guy. We we have 2:36:28.600 --> 2:36:30.600 we have since found out that those videos were like 2:36:30.680 --> 2:36:33.840 approved like in a in a in like a specific 2:36:33.879 --> 2:36:36.879 like propaganda like chat that these people had I think 2:36:37.120 --> 2:36:40.160 I think on signal. Yeah, So like it is, it is. 2:36:40.240 --> 2:36:42.400 It is part of like this this this wave that 2:36:42.400 --> 2:36:46.920 we're just starting to see glimpses of here. And it's 2:36:46.959 --> 2:36:50.680 not great, no, I you know it it it It 2:36:50.840 --> 2:36:52.800 remains to be seen like if these things will actually 2:36:52.840 --> 2:36:55.720 like pan out in elections, though, I mean, like it 2:36:55.959 --> 2:36:58.440 doesn't seem like the vac is gonna do very well 2:36:58.520 --> 2:37:02.840 as an actual presidential candidate during this race. Previously, when 2:37:02.879 --> 2:37:05.280 when when when Republicans have kind of ran on these 2:37:05.520 --> 2:37:08.080 very kind of online topics, like back in the twenty 2:37:08.080 --> 2:37:11.960 twenty two midterms, it it failed to give them kind 2:37:12.000 --> 2:37:16.280 of yeah, the return on investment. So it's we'll still 2:37:16.360 --> 2:37:19.960 kind of see how how kind of viable this strategy is. 2:37:20.440 --> 2:37:23.000 But I mean, we're only going to have more and 2:37:23.040 --> 2:37:26.640 more zoomers and millennials running for office. Like It's yeah, 2:37:26.760 --> 2:37:30.360 as we saw today, Mitch McConnell's literally disintegrated before our 2:37:30.480 --> 2:37:33.560 very eyes. Yes, and more and more of these kind 2:37:33.560 --> 2:37:37.000 of old guard of neocons or Trump guys are going 2:37:37.040 --> 2:37:39.800 to age out in the next ten years, twenty years, 2:37:40.280 --> 2:37:42.760 and you know it's it's gonna we are. We are 2:37:42.800 --> 2:37:45.800 really going to see this new wave of politicians come in. 2:37:46.400 --> 2:37:50.760 It is interesting how much of jen X just has 2:37:50.879 --> 2:37:54.200 not been a has not been a generation that occupies office. 2:37:55.160 --> 2:37:57.920 No, well again, Garrison, you have not watched enough Mike 2:37:58.040 --> 2:38:00.600 Judge cartoons, but that was made very clear in the 2:38:00.640 --> 2:38:02.800 cartoon Daria. 2:38:02.920 --> 2:38:03.720 Yes, that is true. 2:38:03.840 --> 2:38:07.600 Yes, so I I think so I kind of want 2:38:07.640 --> 2:38:09.840 to end I think the nope that was not Mike Judge, 2:38:09.879 --> 2:38:10.879 What what was I thinking? 2:38:10.920 --> 2:38:11.879 Why did I say. 2:38:11.720 --> 2:38:14.480 That I'm an I I'm a I'm a fool? Oh wait, 2:38:14.720 --> 2:38:16.800 because it's a spin off of Beavis and Budded. Yes, 2:38:16.920 --> 2:38:20.920 that's why. Okay, all right, I solved that mystery, Thank God. 2:38:21.120 --> 2:38:23.520 Now the mystery I haven't solved. And and the thing 2:38:23.560 --> 2:38:25.360 I want to bring you to is, like we've said, 2:38:25.400 --> 2:38:26.959 I don't I don't think ire of us think his 2:38:27.400 --> 2:38:32.920 presidential campaign has electoral shot. Uh, but what about him 2:38:32.959 --> 2:38:34.840 is VP? Do you think that's that's likely? 2:38:35.840 --> 2:38:36.320 Personally? 2:38:37.400 --> 2:38:40.199 There there's I mean, there's certainly a chance. Uh, there's 2:38:40.200 --> 2:38:42.920 a chance. Trumps indicated that that that there's a chance. 2:38:43.240 --> 2:38:46.160 I believe Trump said he's a very very very intelligent person. 2:38:46.240 --> 2:38:49.320 He's got good energy, and he could uh and he 2:38:49.400 --> 2:38:54.000 could be some form of something great, great Trumpian dialogue. 2:38:54.440 --> 2:38:57.160 I'll tell you, I think he'd be very good as 2:38:57.640 --> 2:38:58.440 as vice president. 2:38:58.560 --> 2:39:02.080 So yeah, it's which you know, I think the fact 2:39:02.160 --> 2:39:05.080 that his his his overall numbers aren't trending up might 2:39:05.160 --> 2:39:08.320 hurt him in that although maybe it'll make Trump feel 2:39:08.320 --> 2:39:11.320 more secure that he's not going to like take anything 2:39:11.400 --> 2:39:14.560 from him, you know, although maybe the fact that he 2:39:14.680 --> 2:39:18.280 has gone so viral. It would would upset Trump because 2:39:18.320 --> 2:39:20.640 he kind of seems to have preferred having a non 2:39:20.800 --> 2:39:22.040 entity as his VP. 2:39:23.000 --> 2:39:23.200 Yeah. 2:39:23.240 --> 2:39:26.720 I don't know, because it is like, Yeah. 2:39:26.440 --> 2:39:28.440 My previous prediction was that he would try to get 2:39:28.440 --> 2:39:31.720 herschel Walker. That maybe kind of out of date. Now, Yeah, 2:39:31.720 --> 2:39:34.560 that is certainly another one of these guys that that 2:39:34.600 --> 2:39:36.680 could be in line. Certainly out of out of everyone 2:39:36.760 --> 2:39:39.360 else on the debate stage, he was, Yeah, I think 2:39:39.400 --> 2:39:41.879 the most the most Trumpian and the most like Trump 2:39:41.959 --> 2:39:47.120 friendly guy. Yeah. The one other election kind of restriction 2:39:47.360 --> 2:39:49.720 that he proposed that we have yet to mention is 2:39:49.760 --> 2:39:54.000 to raise the voting age to twenty five Yes, on 2:39:54.320 --> 2:39:59.160 top of having those Civics tests. But yeah, I mean 2:39:59.160 --> 2:40:02.280 I I think it's possible, but it's it's a little 2:40:02.280 --> 2:40:03.640 too far out to say for sure. 2:40:04.200 --> 2:40:08.840 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well that is Uh, I think 2:40:08.920 --> 2:40:11.320 where we're gonna we're gonna bring her to an end 2:40:11.440 --> 2:40:14.920 for the night. Uh yeah, this has been it could 2:40:14.959 --> 2:40:20.080 happen here until we could happen it certainly could Uh 2:40:20.120 --> 2:40:29.000 you know, stay, uh did people give you a little concerned? Hey, 2:40:29.080 --> 2:40:32.200 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week. From 2:40:32.240 --> 2:40:33.920 now until the heat death of the universe. 2:40:34.520 --> 2:40:37.000 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:40:37.120 --> 2:40:39.800 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:40:39.800 --> 2:40:42.039 cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 2:40:42.080 --> 2:40:45.599 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:40:45.879 --> 2:40:48.000 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2:40:48.080 --> 2:40:52.119 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.