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Speaker 1: Hey, folks, Kate Judson here. I'm a lawyer and the

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Speaker 1: executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences.

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Speaker 1: We're back with another episode of Junk Science, a series

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Speaker 1: we first released in twenty twenty, but these stories are

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Speaker 1: just as relevant as ever. This week's episode focuses on

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Speaker 1: gunshot residue, a form of forensic science that is still

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Speaker 1: used today. The techniques have improved slightly since the case

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Speaker 1: in this episode, but they're still pretty unreliable. One of

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Speaker 1: the biggest problems with gunshot residue evidence, or GSR, is

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Speaker 1: that we don't know how long it sticks around. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: analysts talk about GSR as though if you weren't at

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Speaker 1: a firing range in the last four hours, there's no

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Speaker 1: reason for GSR to be found on you. But that's

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Speaker 1: not the case, especially in a country like ours where

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Speaker 1: firearms are ubiquitous. We don't know enough about transfer to

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Speaker 1: be confident that if you have GSR on your clothing

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Speaker 1: or body, that you got that residue from actually using

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Speaker 1: a firearm. Maybe you got it when you were arrested

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Speaker 1: because the police officer had it on him, or maybe

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Speaker 1: you shook hands with someone earlier who'd recently been to

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Speaker 1: a range. There are too many questions about persistence and

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Speaker 1: transfer for much of our historical testimony about GSR to

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Speaker 1: be trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: It's Saturday night. You're in your front yard working on

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Speaker 2: your moped. Your dad is sitting on the picnic bench,

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Speaker 2: chatting with you as you install a new starter. You

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Speaker 2: and your friend Alan saved up all year so you

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Speaker 2: could each buy a bike. Neither one of them is

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Speaker 2: in great condition, but now that school is out you

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Speaker 2: have all summer to fix them up. After a little while,

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Speaker 2: your friend Chante arrives at your house and he says, hey,

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Speaker 2: Alan's bike has a flat. He wants us to come

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Speaker 2: help him fix it. And you're thinking, again, his bike

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Speaker 2: is always breaking down. It's always got some kind of problem.

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Speaker 2: At first, you were a little jealous of Alan's red

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Speaker 2: raz but that guy keeps getting flats. You pat the

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Speaker 2: seat on your brown moped. It's pretty ugly, but at

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Speaker 2: least it's faithful. You ask your dad if it's cool

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Speaker 2: if you go over to Alan's grandmother's to get the bike.

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Speaker 2: He looks at his watch and says, well, it's pretty late,

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Speaker 2: but hurry up, go get it and you can bring

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Speaker 2: it back here to work on it. When you and

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Speaker 2: Chante get to Alan's, Chante heads inside to help Alan

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Speaker 2: with the bike. Another flat, you say. When Alan comes

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Speaker 2: out of his house, don't even start, Alan says, tossing

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Speaker 2: you a can of soda. You hang out for a bit,

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Speaker 2: and then the three of you start walking Alan's bike

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Speaker 2: towards your house. You're teasing Alan about how often his

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Speaker 2: mopeed has problems when a green sedan coming from the

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Speaker 2: opposite direction stops right next to you. The man driving

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Speaker 2: the car leans out the window and says, hey, you

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Speaker 2: guys have any dope Nah, and says we don't mess

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Speaker 2: with that shit. Yell at the guy, Hey, man, get

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Speaker 2: out of here, and the green car speeds off. You

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Speaker 2: walk a bit further down the block, and then you

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Speaker 2: hear shots ring out. Oh shit. All three of you

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Speaker 2: start frantically running down the street and don't look back.

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Speaker 2: You don't stop running until you get back to your house.

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Speaker 2: You look around, making sure no one's shooting at you,

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Speaker 2: and then you catch your breath. You, Shanta and Allen

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Speaker 2: talk about the gunshots for a few minutes. It's not

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Speaker 2: that out of the ordinary in this neighborhood, but still

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Speaker 2: it's totally scariest shit when it happens. The adrenaline finally

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Speaker 2: wears off and you start working on Allen's bike. There's

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Speaker 2: a nail in the tread of the tire. You pull

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Speaker 2: it out, plug the hole, and let the glue set.

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Speaker 2: After pumping up the tire and giving it a few

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Speaker 2: good pushes, Alan grabs his bike and begins to walk

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Speaker 2: it back down the street toward his grandmother's house. Once

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Speaker 2: Alan gets to his street, he sees the green car

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Speaker 2: that stopped to ask for drugs, but now its front

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Speaker 2: end is just demolished. It's smashed into the side of

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Speaker 2: a house a few doors down from his grandmother's. There's

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Speaker 2: smoke and chaos and police just everywhere. Over the next

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Speaker 2: few days, you expect to see Alan riding his red

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Speaker 2: raz after all the tire is fixed, but you don't

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Speaker 2: see him around the neighborhood. A week passes, you knock

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Speaker 2: on his door and his grandmother tells you that the

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Speaker 2: man in the green car had been shot. The cops

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Speaker 2: asked Alan to come to the police station to help

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Speaker 2: with the investigation. She expected Alan to be home that

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Speaker 2: same night, but he's being held in jail. She's afraid

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Speaker 2: and confused, and suddenly so are you. A few weeks later,

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Speaker 2: you're in your backyard, throwing a tennis ball against the

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Speaker 2: side of your house, worrying about Alan, wondering if he's okay.

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Speaker 2: Out of the corner of your eye, you see some

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Speaker 2: people walking towards you, and it's four police officers. At

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Speaker 2: first you freeze, overcome with fear, and then you take off.

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Speaker 2: They took Alan for no reason. What's going to stop

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Speaker 2: them from grabbing you and doing the same thing. But

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Speaker 2: you're fourteen years old. They're bigger than you, faster, and

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Speaker 2: there's more of them. They catch up, grab you and

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Speaker 2: put you in handcuffs. Your first thought is I'm going

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Speaker 2: to disappear, just like Alan. You're putting an interrogation room.

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Speaker 2: You tell the officers what happened that night, the night

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Speaker 2: the guy in the green car got shot, how you

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Speaker 2: and Alan told him to go away. But they don't

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Speaker 2: want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear

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Speaker 2: anything you're telling them. One of the detectives, Scoots, is

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Speaker 2: seat closer to you. We know Alan did this. His

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Speaker 2: hands tested positive for gunpowder residue. You know what that is, son,

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Speaker 2: We know he was involved. You're gonna tell us what

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Speaker 2: Alan did. You're gonna tell us that Alan had the gun,

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Speaker 2: that you saw that gun, and that what he did

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Speaker 2: is he went up to that car that stopped and

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Speaker 2: he talked to the guy in the car, and the

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Speaker 2: next thing you knew was you heard gunshots and you

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Speaker 2: saw Alan running. And I'm gonna tell you something you

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Speaker 2: don't tell us exactly that. Here's what's gonna happen. You're

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Speaker 2: gonna get charged with murder. You got that. You know

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Speaker 2: how much power these guys have. They already have Alan.

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Speaker 2: Who knows what they're gonna do to you. You're petrified.

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Speaker 2: The walls feel like they're closing in on you. You figure,

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Speaker 2: I should just tell these guys what they want to hear.

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Speaker 2: Then my parents can help sort this out later. So

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Speaker 2: you do what they say. You make up a story,

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Speaker 2: one that sounds like what they want to hear, and

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Speaker 2: they record it. You'll tell them anything just to get

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Speaker 2: out of that room. Before letting you go, the cops

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Speaker 2: tell you you're going to have to testify at Alan's trial.

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Speaker 2: We'll see you.

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Speaker 3: Then.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks pass, and you're relieved when school starts again,

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Speaker 2: maybe this will distract you from thinking about Alan, from

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Speaker 2: the feeling that it's your fault. He's still sitting in jail.

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Speaker 2: The day of Alan's trial, you and Chante decide you're

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Speaker 2: not going to show up. You're not going to testify

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Speaker 2: against your friend, lie again and dig a deeper hole

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Speaker 2: for Alan. But the cops show up at your school

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Speaker 2: and they bring you both to court. At Alan's trial,

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Speaker 2: an officer takes the stand and says that he personally

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Speaker 2: collected samples from Alan's hands. He swabbed the front and

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Speaker 2: back of them with Q tips and then tested those

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Speaker 2: Q tips to see if there was gunpowdered residue present.

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Speaker 2: The officer testifies the defendant's right hand tested positive for

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Speaker 2: antimony and bury them two chemical elements that are present

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Speaker 2: in gunpowder residue. There is no doubt in my mind

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Speaker 2: that the defendant shot the gun that was used in

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Speaker 2: this homicide. This is insane. You think you know Alan

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Speaker 2: didn't have a gun. He was with you when those

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Speaker 2: shots rang out. How can they just make this stuff up?

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Speaker 2: When you're on the witness stand, you glance over at

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Speaker 2: the jury. They're all sitting forward, staring right at you.

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Speaker 2: Through you. It seems. The prosecutors start asking you all

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Speaker 2: of these questions. Your answers are all over the place.

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Speaker 2: They barely make sense. You were told to tell lies,

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Speaker 2: but it's hard to keep it all straight because none

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Speaker 2: of what you're testifying to actually happened. But at seventeen

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Speaker 2: years old, Allan is convicted of murder and sentenced to

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Speaker 2: fifteen years to life in prison. The gunshot residue that

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Speaker 2: the police and prosecutor's claim was found on Alan's hand

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Speaker 2: is the only physical evidence linking him to the crime.

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Speaker 2: The story you just heard is based on the true

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Speaker 2: events of Raymond Carl Allan Warren's trial. He was convicted

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Speaker 2: of murder based on faulty gunshot residue evidence. The police

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Speaker 2: also chorused his two friends, Shanta and Antonio, into giving

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Speaker 2: false testimony saying that Allan committed the crime. Alan is

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Speaker 2: now in his forties and he is still in prison.

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Speaker 2: He's been there for over twenty five years, serving a

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Speaker 2: sentence of fifteen to life for a murder he did

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Speaker 2: not commit. I'm Josh Duben, civil Rights It's in criminal

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Speaker 2: defense attorney and innocent ambassador to the Innocence Project in

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Speaker 2: New York Today on wrongful conviction junk science. We examine

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Speaker 2: gunshot residue evidence. As listeners to the show, you've probably

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Speaker 2: heard how coerse confessions are used to convict innocent people

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Speaker 2: on another podcast in our feed wrongful conviction, false Confessions. Now,

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Speaker 2: the coerse confessions of Chanta and Antonio were certainly factors

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Speaker 2: in convicting Allan at his trial, but today our focus

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Speaker 2: is on faulty forensic science, and gunshot residue certainly has

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Speaker 2: its issues that began almost a century ago.

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Speaker 4: When three dozen former Brooklyn Navy yard workers found themselves

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Speaker 4: irreparably poisoned by the asbestos they used in the construction

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Speaker 4: of the battleships that won World War Two. Perry White

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Speaker 4: and Arthur Luxembourg literally put everything on the line to

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Speaker 4: successfully represent them. Since then, they've chanted being the rights

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Speaker 4: of over fifty thousand regular Americans injured through the negligence

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Speaker 4: and malfeasance of mainly large corporations. Their ability to level

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Speaker 4: the playing field against seemingly insurmountable odds has led them

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Speaker 4: to litigate against opponents as diverse as big Pharma, all

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Speaker 4: the way to those responsible for rendering the water of

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Speaker 4: Flint Michigan Undrinkable whites and Luxembourg ticket personally when there's

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Speaker 4: a miscarriage of justice anywhere, and therefore they feel a

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Speaker 4: sense of responsibility to support Bramfel conviction podcasts. You can

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Speaker 4: learn more about them by visiting whites lux dot com.

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Speaker 4: That's weitz lux dot com.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen thirty three, a group of American police officers

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Speaker 2: from several departments gathered in a lab at the police

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Speaker 2: headquarters of Mexico City. They were there to observe Tiodoro

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Speaker 2: Gonzales demonstrate his new tech for testing gunpowder residue. The

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Speaker 2: test became known by many names, the dermal nitrate tests,

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Speaker 2: the glove tests, but my favorite might be the paraffin

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Speaker 2: gauntlet test. The officers watched as Gonzales poured white, hot

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Speaker 2: liquid paraffin wax over the fingers, hands, and wrists of

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Speaker 2: his lab assistant. A glimmer of discomfort flashed across the

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Speaker 2: assistant's eyes as the hot wax coated his skin. Next,

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Speaker 2: Gonzales delicately wrapped the layer of cotton around the assistants

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Speaker 2: fingers and hands. Layer after layer of wax, then cotton

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Speaker 2: were added, until gloves began to form while the paraffin cooled.

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Speaker 2: Gonzales explained that after a suspect fires a gun, the

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Speaker 2: gunpowder residue becomes embedded deep in the pores of the skin.

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Speaker 2: Even weeks after a gun is fired, the hot melted

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Speaker 2: paraffin will open up the pores, mix with the oils

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Speaker 2: in the skin, and caused the porest to discharge the

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Speaker 2: gunpowder residue trapped within them. Part of this experiment included

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Speaker 2: Gonzalez's assistant firing a gun and then washing his hands

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Speaker 2: prior to them being wrapped. The American officers noted the

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Speaker 2: advantage of this technique. Suspects couldn't simply wash their hands

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Speaker 2: and avoid detection. Gonzales delicately peeled the gloves from the

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Speaker 2: hands of his assistant and then took them over to

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Speaker 2: the lab table and gently laid them down. He measured

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Speaker 2: a small beaker of a chemical solution that contained sulfuric acid.

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Speaker 2: Drop by drop, he coated the interior of the gloves

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Speaker 2: with the mixture. Minutes later, dark blue specks the size

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Speaker 2: of pinpoints began to form, and Gonzales explained that these

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Speaker 2: blue dots indicated the presence of dermal nitrates from gunpowder residue.

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Speaker 2: The police officers huddled around the paraffine gloves to see

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Speaker 2: for themselves. After that, it took only a few years

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Speaker 2: for the paraffin test to become widely used in police

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Speaker 2: departments across the United States. Within three years of Gonzalez's demonstration,

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Speaker 2: it was used as forensic evidence in the murder trial

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Speaker 2: of James L. Westwood in Pennsylvania. At his trial, the

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Speaker 2: state called expert witnesses who testified that gunpowder residue was

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Speaker 2: present on Westwood's hands, indicating that it was he who

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Speaker 2: shot and killed his wife. But Westwood's defense attorney called

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Speaker 2: his own expert witness, a chemist who had conducted his

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Speaker 2: own study and found that thirteen different substances could also

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Speaker 2: cause the blue dots to appear on the paraffin gloves.

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Speaker 2: He cited things like ordinary soot, certain brands of toothpaste,

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Speaker 2: tobacco cigars, cigarette ashes, and different types of matches, but

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Speaker 2: none of that evidence mattered for the jury. Westwood was

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Speaker 2: convicted of the first degree murder of his wife and

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Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison. By nineteen sixty seven, a

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Speaker 2: wider study concluded that rust colored fingernail polish and residue

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Speaker 2: from evaporated urine, soap, and tapwater would all test positive.

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Speaker 2: Contact with any of these objects would create blue dots

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Speaker 2: to appear on the gloves in a paraffin test. The

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Speaker 2: paraffine test is no longer being used today, and the

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Speaker 2: science behind testing gunshot residue has changed. By the time

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Speaker 2: Allan was arrested in nineteen ninety four at sixteen years old,

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Speaker 2: officers used a new version of the test. It's called

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Speaker 2: the atomic absorption test, but that test has many of

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Speaker 2: the same reliability problems as the paraffin glove.

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Speaker 3: None of the evidence that was used to convict it

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Speaker 3: Alan has withstood the test of time. The test used

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Speaker 3: to indicate that he had gunshot residue on his hands

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Speaker 3: is no longer considered reliable.

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Speaker 2: So joining us today is Joanna Sanchez and she's from

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Speaker 2: the Wrongful Conviction Project at the Office of the Ohio

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Speaker 2: Public Defender and we're super excited to have her today.

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Speaker 2: She's currently representing Alan, whose story we talked about at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of this episode. Now, Alan's full name is

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Speaker 2: Raymond Carl Allan Warren, and Joanna might refer to him

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Speaker 2: as either Allan or Raymond, but don't get confused, okay,

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Speaker 2: because Raymond and Alan are the same person. So Joanna,

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Speaker 2: it's great to have you here today, and I'd like

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Speaker 2: you to start by telling us a little bit about Alan.

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Speaker 2: What was he like as a sixteen year old living

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Speaker 2: in Dayton, Ohio.

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Speaker 3: Alan was, by all accounts, a normal teenager. He had

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Speaker 3: a few brothers and he's very close with them. He's

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Speaker 3: close with his mother, very close to his great and

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Speaker 3: mother had lots of friends in the neighborhood, would spend

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Speaker 3: time with them. Alan loves working on cars, so that

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Speaker 3: was something he spent a lot of time doing, both

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Speaker 3: fixing cars and painting them, playing basketball. And now you know,

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Speaker 3: I've known him now for six years. He's a very engaging,

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Speaker 3: caring person, very talkative, has strong relationships with his family

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Speaker 3: and friends. Still, okay, So.

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Speaker 2: I want to get into the details of the crime

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Speaker 2: a little bit. So police officers arrive on Allen Street

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Speaker 2: the night when he had been fixing his moped and

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Speaker 2: this green car had crashed into the side of a

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Speaker 2: house and the driver is shot. So what makes them

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Speaker 2: even decide to go after Allan as a suspect in

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Speaker 2: the first place?

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Speaker 3: So I think it's a matter of circumstance, the boys

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Speaker 3: they worked on their scooters for a period of time

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Speaker 3: after they heard the gunshots, and then in order to

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Speaker 3: go home, Alan had to essentially go through the crime

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Speaker 3: scene because it happened on the street he was living

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Speaker 3: on with his grandma's. So Alan that night told the

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Speaker 3: police about this encounter with the victim, and the police

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Speaker 3: asked him if he was willing to come down to

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Speaker 3: the police station to give a statement. So he voluntarily

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Speaker 3: went to the police station and also voluntarily submitted to

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Speaker 3: a gunshot residue test. And the result of that gunshot

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Speaker 3: residue test was that Allen tested negative on his left

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Speaker 3: hand even though he's left handed, and the palm of

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Speaker 3: his right hand, though tested positive for two elements that

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Speaker 3: are known to be in gunshot residue. And I honestly

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Speaker 3: think once that gunshot residue test came back, they just

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Speaker 3: became laser focused on Alan.

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Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about that test. What

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Speaker 2: exactly did gunshot residue testing entail at the time when

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Speaker 2: Alan went down to that police station.

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Speaker 3: So, gunshot residue testing, the idea behind it is that

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Speaker 3: one person shoots a firearm, particles will be admitted that

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Speaker 3: will land on their clothing or their hands or their face,

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Speaker 3: and that those particles can then be tested. You can't

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Speaker 3: see them, but they can be tested and tell to

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Speaker 3: please something about whether the person being tested might have

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Speaker 3: shot a firearm. All gunshot residue testing is not a

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Speaker 3: simple yes or no test. This is gunshot residue or

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Speaker 3: it's not. What it's really testing for is the elements

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Speaker 3: that are known to make up gunshot residue. So specifically,

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Speaker 3: they test for three elements in most circumstances, and that's lead, barium,

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Speaker 3: and antimony. In Raymond's case, they actually only tested for

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Speaker 3: two of those elements, and what they used was an

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Speaker 3: atomic absorption test, which is now largely out of use,

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Speaker 3: and that's because it has a high risk of producing

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Speaker 3: false positives. So the reason the AA test is unreliable

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Speaker 3: is because it tests for elements that are also present

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Speaker 3: in items that are completely unrelated to guns. So as

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Speaker 3: a result, a person who's never touched or been near

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Speaker 3: a gun could falsely test positive.

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Speaker 2: So Joanna, give us an example. What are some things

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Speaker 2: that Alan might have touched that would make him test

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Speaker 2: positive for gunshot residue.

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Speaker 3: Brake linings are one example of an item that has

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Speaker 3: the same elements as gunshot residue, and on the night

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Speaker 3: of the shooting, as we know, Raymond, who frequently was

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Speaker 3: working on cars, had contact with brake linings while he

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Speaker 3: fixed his motorized scooter. So the AA test as used

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Speaker 3: in Raymond's case is problematic because we can't know if

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Speaker 3: those two elements came from gunshot residue or if they

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Speaker 3: came from brake linings or some other substance that has

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Speaker 3: those same elements as gunshot residue.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned that the AA test, the atomic absorption

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Speaker 2: test that was used on Allen, is not really considered

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Speaker 2: any more to be dependable, but they're still using gunshot

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Speaker 2: residue as a form of evidence. With new tests, has

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Speaker 2: signs progressed in any significant way since the AA test.

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Speaker 3: Gunshot residue testing generally has progressed somewhat. The AA test

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Speaker 3: is no longer really in favor because of its limitations,

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Speaker 3: and there was a switch over in the mid two

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Speaker 3: thousands to a test called sem EDS, and that test

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Speaker 3: was better in that it not only would tell an

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Speaker 3: analyst whether those elements were present, but also could tell

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Speaker 3: them the shape and size of the elements and sort

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Speaker 3: of how they functioned together, whether they were fused, whether

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Speaker 3: they were the shape of a sphere, all things that

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Speaker 3: would be important for distinguishing between gunshot residue and let's

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Speaker 3: say another substance. And so in order for an analyst

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Speaker 3: to have any confidence that something is actually gunshot resume,

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Speaker 3: they'd need to do that sort of morphological analysis and

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Speaker 3: also compare all of the elements in that gunshot resduce

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Speaker 3: sample with all of the elements and other substances so

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Speaker 3: that they can actually eliminate other items.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So that sounds like it does have the potential

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Speaker 2: to be more accurate test because you're able to look

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Speaker 2: at the residue under microscope and tell that the molecules

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Speaker 2: actually come from a gun and can't be from anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: But is this a perfect fix?

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Speaker 3: Even if that's done properly, there's still a second issue

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Speaker 3: with gunshot rescue testing, and that's the reason why the

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Speaker 3: scientific community has really pulled back from this testing, and

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Speaker 3: that issue is contamination. So gunshot residue is incredibly transferable.

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Speaker 3: It's very easy to pick it up by touching a

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Speaker 3: surface that's contaminated with gunshot residue. So if I were

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Speaker 3: to shoot a gun and shake your hand, you could

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Speaker 3: very likely test positive for gunshot residue. And with that

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Speaker 3: that creates just too big of a risk for environmental contamination.

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Speaker 3: And what it means is that, you know, people who

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Speaker 3: touch the back of police cars, handcuffs, police officers, police stations,

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Speaker 3: there's a good chance they could pick up gunshot residue

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Speaker 3: from those surfaces, even though they themselves never touched a gun.

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Speaker 3: And we know that happened to Raymond's case because he

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Speaker 3: was transported to the police station in the back of

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Speaker 3: a police car and then held in an interrogation room

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Speaker 3: for several hours before he was actually tested. If on

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Speaker 3: the call before that police officer had taken somebody who

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Speaker 3: shot a gun down to the police station, that person

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Speaker 3: could have left gunshot residue there and then Alan gets

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Speaker 3: in the car and picks it up. And there have

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Speaker 3: been studies across the country that show that kind of

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Speaker 3: thing occurs. So there was a study in Colorado where

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Speaker 3: they tested I think forty police cars excuse me, twenty

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Speaker 3: six police cars, and they found gunshot residue particles and

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Speaker 3: fourteen of them. So this kind of transference is very

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Speaker 3: common unfortunately, So and.

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Speaker 2: You know, in hearing this, I got to tell you

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Speaker 2: this is like it's startling, it's scary, and you initially

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Speaker 2: start to see think, well, how many people might have

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Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted when the evidence in their case was

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Speaker 2: just gunshot residue on their hands. I mean, you have

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Speaker 2: to admit it's pretty compelling evidence for people that don't

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Speaker 2: know otherwise. And I mean what I mean for people

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Speaker 2: that don't know otherwise, I'm talking about jurors. So with

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Speaker 2: that in mind, how big of a role did faulty

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Speaker 2: gunshot residue evidence plane Allen's case?

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Speaker 3: The gunshot residue evidence here was critical in Alan's trial.

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Speaker 3: The examiner when he testified, what he said was that

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Speaker 3: this positive test means one of three things. Either Alan

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Speaker 3: shot a gun, Alan was a victim of a shooting,

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Speaker 3: or Alan handled ammunition. But we know he wasn't a victim,

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Speaker 3: and both of the other options still implicate him, whether

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Speaker 3: he's shooting a gun or handling ammunition. What the examiner

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Speaker 3: left out is the fourth possibility that this is contamination

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Speaker 3: and the fifth possibility, which is that it's not gone

400
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Speaker 3: shot residue at all. It could just be barium and

401
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: antimony on Alan's hands as a result of him having

402
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Speaker 3: contact with Brake Linings earlier that night, and that is

403
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Speaker 3: the entire scope of the physical evidence in this trial.

404
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Speaker 2: So as a result of this bogus gunshot residue evidence,

405
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Speaker 2: Allan gets sentenced to fifteen years to life. He's only

406
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Speaker 2: seventeen years old. I mean, what options did he have

407
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Speaker 2: to seek recourse? How would one go about proving that

408
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Speaker 2: gunshot residue evidence is false.

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Speaker 3: It's incredibly difficult for anybody who's incarcerated to collect the

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Speaker 3: evidence or knowledge necessary to file a new trial motion

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Speaker 3: or raise a claim that they are wrongfully convicted. So

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Speaker 3: part of that is he's locked inside, can't go out

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Speaker 3: and conduct any sort of investigation. He lacks the funds,

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Speaker 3: so he doesn't have the ability to hire an attorney

415
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: or an investigator or an expert witness to go get

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Speaker 3: this evidence. Alan was challenged and that he couldn't even

417
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Speaker 3: get the records in his case, So if he wanted

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Speaker 3: to write a motion for a few years, he did

419
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Speaker 3: not even have a copy of his transcript that would

420
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Speaker 3: have helped him to do that. So there are so

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Speaker 3: many barriers. He's a smart guy, but he's not an attorney.

422
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Speaker 3: I mean, that's why we say people should have attorneys.

423
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Speaker 3: To litigate these complex issues is incredibly difficult, and it's

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Speaker 3: all the more so for somebody who's a teenager and

425
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 3: they're incarcerated. They don't have access to these things. And

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Speaker 3: so he fought on his own for years and years

427
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Speaker 3: to try to challenge his conviction. The kind of changes

428
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: and evolution with gunshot residue was happening, but he did

429
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Speaker 3: not really know that. He didn't have access to forensic

430
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Speaker 3: science articles or expert witnesses, so he wasn't even aware

431
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: that that was necessarily an issue in his case. And eventually,

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety nine, Chante Hunt gave a statement and said,

433
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,239
Speaker 3: I lied because I was scared. Alan was with us

434
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,199
Speaker 3: when we heard the shots, so he could not have

435
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 3: shot the victim. And in two thousand and eight, Antonio

436
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: gave a very similar statement saying, again, I was scared

437
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 3: and this is a lie, and I did not come

438
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 3: forward for all these years because I was scared of

439
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: perjury charges.

440
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: Now the Innocence Project has become involved in Allen's case,

441
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 2: and you and your co counsel are fighting to get

442
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: allan justice. But as our listeners know by now, as

443
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure you and I can agree, this problem is

444
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: so much bigger than Alan's case. What needs to happen,

445
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: in your opinion, to make sure things like gunshot residue

446
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: evidence stopped being used to convict innocent people so that

447
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 2: this doesn't happen again and again and again.

448
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: I think police officers and lab examiners should be careful

449
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 3: about when they do gunshot resdue testing and only do

450
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 3: it in the very optimal circumstances, if at all. I

451
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: think there are some police officers who feel that it's

452
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: just a piece of the puzzle and it's a helpful

453
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: tool and the investigation. But I think the risk with

454
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: that is that it leads to tunnel vision. You know,

455
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: once you have that piece of evidence, you become fixated

456
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: on a suspect, and our courts, our judges, need to

457
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: look at it critically as well. The court is the

458
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 3: gatekeeper of expert testimony and forensic evidence that comes in,

459
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: and what we're seeing is that some courts are limiting

460
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 3: what can be said about gunshot rescue evidence, but they're

461
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: still allowing it in. And I think at some point

462
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: we hit a breaking point where the risk of prejudice

463
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: for this evidence outweighs the benefit of it because it

464
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: is so unreliable in so many different aspects. That are

465
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: we risking swaying the jury with evidence that really isn't

466
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 3: reliable enough and shouldn't be presented at all.

467
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: All Right, So that certainly addresses what people involved in

468
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: the justice system can do. But what can everyday people do.

469
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: We have a lot of our listeners asking us, you know,

470
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: what can I do to help? So please tell them

471
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: things they can do to make sure that this kind

472
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: of junk science stops being used and it gets out

473
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: of our criminal justice system once and for all.

474
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing is people sharing this information

475
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: and sharing podcasts like this, sharing when somebody is exonerated

476
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: based on forensic evidence that we now know has been discredited.

477
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: Is the more people that know about this, I think

478
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: the more the system will improve. I think the impact

479
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: of sharing this podcast and sharing his story is that

480
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: more people hear about it, and then they take that

481
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 3: knowledge with them when they vote, and they take that

482
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: knowledge with them when they interact with public officials and

483
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: ask them, how do you approach wrongful convictions? How do

484
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: you approach forensic science. Are there laws in place that

485
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: allow for these convictions to be challenged appropriately? And I

486
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: think having the knowledge that's gained from listening to a

487
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: podcast like this equips people with the sort of the

488
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: talking points and the ability to ask those questions of

489
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: public officials.

490
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about where Alan is

491
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: now and what options are left for him at this point.

492
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: Now, Alan had litigated emotion asking for a new trial,

493
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: and we stepped into that litigation on his behalf in

494
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, and it's kind of been up and down

495
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: through the courts over several years. But earlier this year

496
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court of Ohio decided not to take his case.

497
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: So where we're at is we continue to fight for him,

498
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: and we believe strongly in his innocence and that he

499
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: was wrongfully convicted. And so we're moving forward. We're hoping

500
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: to find new evidence or hoping that a new avenue

501
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: of relief opens up that allows Alan to challenge his

502
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: conviction and hopefully one day go home.

503
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: Look, Joanna, I my heart sort of you know, aches

504
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: for you and for Alan really, because I have been

505
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: there before. I know that when cases you know, don't

506
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: work out, you know, on our initial first try or

507
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: first fifteen tries, and go the way we need them

508
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: to go, because our clients are innocent, and we know

509
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: they're innocent. It can be so frustrating. What's your reaction

510
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: when you have setbacks like this. I know that I've

511
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: wept on my wife's shoulder before, I know that I

512
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: have punched walls. I've had the spectrum of emotions. But

513
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, tell me a little bit about what it's

514
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: like for you when you know you're faced with setbacks

515
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: like this, and you know what it's like with Alan

516
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: still sitting in prison.

517
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: I think the important thing we do is we kind

518
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: of keep moving forward and keep thinking about our clients,

519
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: keep thinking about Alan and what he's going through. And

520
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 3: it's so important that we stay in the fight and

521
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: continue to be a voice for those people. And I

522
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: hope one day it's not this way. But I know

523
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: for me, I look at all the two thousand plus

524
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: exonerations that we know about, and I see that those

525
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: are never easy, right. They come after setback, and people

526
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: have to try multiple different times, multiple different ways. And

527
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: so I hope that at some point in time it

528
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be that way. But at least for now,

529
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 3: I know that it's absolutely worth it to keep fighting

530
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: for this person and to keep hoping that one day

531
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: something we do works and somebody pays attention and that

532
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: he gets the justice he's do.

533
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: You know, I tell people all the time that these

534
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: wrongful convictions are super difficult. You have to fight tall odds,

535
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: you have to keep on fighting forward in the face

536
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: of constant rejection from appellate courts. And if you're not

537
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: willing to deal with sepacks, if you can't pick yourself

538
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: up and dust yourself off and keep charging up that

539
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: steep slope, you're really in the wrong business. And it

540
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: really does take a team effort. So the more you

541
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: can share these stories, the better off we're all going

542
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: to be, because there's power in numbers, and there's power

543
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: in a collective message. So I hope you will do

544
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: just that. Please share our podcast and take action, whether

545
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: it be writing your local judges as I often implore

546
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 2: you all to do, or ensuring that when you vote,

547
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: you are voting for those judges and the jurisdiction which

548
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: you live that actually have the qualifications and the temperament

549
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: to be open minded and thorough such that they won't

550
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: blindly accept that legal precedent equates to liability. Sometimes bad

551
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: science remains in our system of justice because it goes unchallenged.

552
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: It's up to all of us to shine a bright

553
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: light on these junk sciences and force a reckoning. Next week,

554
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: we'll explore the junk science of tool mark identification with

555
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: science journalist Tim Recorth. Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a

556
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

557
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: Company Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason Flamm

558
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: and the team at Signal Company Number One executive producer

559
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: Kevin Wardis and senior producers Karen Kornhaber and Britz Spangler.

560
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow

561
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: me on Instagram at dubin Josh. Follow the Wrongful Conviction

562
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: podcast on Facebook and on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction on

563
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: Twitter at wrong Conviction