WEBVTT - Ep. 997: Rewilding Your Life with Micheal Easter

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to

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<v Speaker 1>the White Tail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven

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<v Speaker 1>versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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<v Speaker 1>Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on

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<v Speaker 2>the show, I'm joined by Michael Easter. He is the

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<v Speaker 2>author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>discussing tangible ways we can add wildness back into our

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<v Speaker 2>lives and the real impact that can have on our happiness,

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<v Speaker 2>our outdoor pursuits, and our sense of satisfaction across all things.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>brought to you by First Light, and Happy New Year.

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<v Speaker 2>A new Year's upon us. I can't believe that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>We're two weeks in now, I suppose, and it's always

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<v Speaker 2>shocking how quickly these things sneak up on us. But

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty six is here, and we're gonna be kicking

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<v Speaker 2>off the new year.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Last week we discussed some of the top conservation issues

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<v Speaker 2>to be thinking about and looking forward to today, and

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<v Speaker 2>then again in a couple of weeks we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>do a couple outside the box episodes, some episodes where

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<v Speaker 2>we explore topics that are a little bit beyond strictly

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<v Speaker 2>deer hunting, beyond strictly how to, and we're gonna zoom

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<v Speaker 2>out a bit and explore some different ideas and philosophies

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<v Speaker 2>or concepts things that can help you become a better

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<v Speaker 2>deer hunter, but also help you become a better angler

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<v Speaker 2>outdoors men or woman, a student, businessman or woman, dad, mom, son, daughter,

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<v Speaker 2>person in general. We're gonna get outside of the usual

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<v Speaker 2>and talk about some higher level things that impact our

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<v Speaker 2>daily lives but definitely have a significant influence on who

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<v Speaker 2>we are as hunters or anglers. Some of these will

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<v Speaker 2>be discussing, you know, how to perform better, how to excel,

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<v Speaker 2>how to be excellent at something like hunting or fishing

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<v Speaker 2>or hiking or backpacking. But we're also going to discuss

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<v Speaker 2>how to, you know, think about success, how to set

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<v Speaker 2>better goals, how to be more productive or happier or

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<v Speaker 2>enjoy the pursuits that you are chasing, whatever that might be.

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<v Speaker 2>That's kind of what we're going to explore a couple

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<v Speaker 2>times here to set ourselves up to hopefully have maybe

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<v Speaker 2>our best year ever, and today's guest is I think

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<v Speaker 2>the perfect person to help us do that. As I

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned in the introduction, this is Michael Easter. He is

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<v Speaker 2>a journalist and an author of two really great books

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<v Speaker 2>that I've enjoyed in the past. The Comfort Crisis, which

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<v Speaker 2>explores the many different ways that our increasingly comfortable world

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<v Speaker 2>is impacting us in possibly negative ways. Great book. It

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<v Speaker 2>uses a really exciting Alaskan backcountry hunt as the spine

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<v Speaker 2>of that story with Donnie Vincent, who's a past guest

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<v Speaker 2>of this podcast too, so highly recommend that. His book,

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<v Speaker 2>Scarcity Brain explores how kind of the evolutionary history of

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<v Speaker 2>humanity has led us to have this constant desire for

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<v Speaker 2>more and more and more, and how all sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>things out there in the world kind of spike these

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<v Speaker 2>habits or addictive behaviors that make us crave more food,

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<v Speaker 2>or more social media, or more status or more many

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<v Speaker 2>different things. So very interesting read. And then here in

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<v Speaker 2>the next couple weeks, I believe he has another book

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<v Speaker 2>coming out called Walking with Weight, and that's all about

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<v Speaker 2>the very specific physical practice of rucking hiking around with

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<v Speaker 2>a big, heavy backpack. That book's got a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>very relevant stuff for hunters or outdoors. People who get

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<v Speaker 2>outside carry heavy things. So that's the background he brings

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<v Speaker 2>to this. He also has the two Percent sub Stack,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a terrific website, a newsletter that he sends

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<v Speaker 2>out and that is on a quote here that explores simple,

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<v Speaker 2>actionable strategies to improve your physical health, mental resilience, performance,

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<v Speaker 2>and purpose. And I think that sums up his work

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<v Speaker 2>very well. But I would add one additional qualifier, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is something that came up in my conversation with Michael.

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<v Speaker 2>This idea that kind of bubbled up for me that

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<v Speaker 2>much of what he talks about, much of what he prescribes,

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<v Speaker 2>is all about rewilding our lives. It's inserting stuff back

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<v Speaker 2>into our lives that used to be just what regular

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<v Speaker 2>wild humans used to do. Even humans one hundred years

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<v Speaker 2>ago used to do this stuff all the time. But

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<v Speaker 2>modern day life, cities, technology, all of that has kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stripped it away in many ways. It's stripped discomfort,

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<v Speaker 2>it's stripped challenge, it's stripped community or structure out of

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<v Speaker 2>our lives. And Michael has explored unique ideas for bringing

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<v Speaker 2>that back. And so that's what we discussed to we

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<v Speaker 2>discuss how to rewild our lives in this new year.

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<v Speaker 2>How that can make you a better hunter, How that

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<v Speaker 2>can make you a better outdoors men or woman, and

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<v Speaker 2>a happier, more satisfied, productive, successful, healthy person in whatever

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<v Speaker 2>pursuit it is you want to apply it to. So

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<v Speaker 2>some very specific things we discuss include New Year's resolutions,

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<v Speaker 2>the science behind them, if they work or not, ideas

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<v Speaker 2>for setting goals for the new year, the possible risks

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<v Speaker 2>of setting goals around your recreational pursuits and your hobbies

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<v Speaker 2>like hunting or fishing. We think discussed some different things

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<v Speaker 2>around how modern high tech life today is changing our experiences,

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<v Speaker 2>changing what it means to be human. It's changing our happiness,

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<v Speaker 2>our satisfaction, even how we experience hunts or fishing trips

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<v Speaker 2>or camping trips. How all that's kind of infiltrating our

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<v Speaker 2>outdoor pursuits. We talk about social media. We talk about

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<v Speaker 2>how that's kind of hijacked our minds and how we

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<v Speaker 2>might be able to reclaim control over that, which is

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<v Speaker 2>certainly relevant to us as hunters and outdoors people who

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we of course engage in social media. But

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<v Speaker 2>then there's this whole other comparison culture thing that is

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<v Speaker 2>happening within our community and influencing how we, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>judge success, how we feel about our you know, whether

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<v Speaker 2>it be an animal that we tagged, or the goals

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<v Speaker 2>we set for the year, or anything like that. So

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot to unpack there. We discuss different ways

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<v Speaker 2>to set big outdoor challenges and ways to explore our

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<v Speaker 2>edges and exploring you know, how to do things outside

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<v Speaker 2>of our comfort zone and why that's important, how to

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<v Speaker 2>best do that. Some cool ideas around that. We get

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<v Speaker 2>into some physical training, some simple ways that we can

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<v Speaker 2>become healthier, more capable backcountry hunters or mobile deer hunters

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever it might be. There's some simple but useful

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<v Speaker 2>ideas here that we discussed with Michael. So there's a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a great conversation.

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<v Speaker 4>Really enjoyed it.

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<v Speaker 2>I highly recommend picking up those books I mentioned earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're into the rocking idea, this kind of backpacking

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<v Speaker 2>for physical fitness, check out his newest book, Walking with Weight.

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<v Speaker 2>And I will just say again, this is a conversation

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<v Speaker 2>that is really relevant to you as a deer hunter

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<v Speaker 2>or outdoors person. But I think you're going to see

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<v Speaker 2>a lot here that can be applied across the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of your life too. So I hope you enjoy it

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<v Speaker 2>as much as I did. And thanks for being here

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<v Speaker 2>all right now with me on the line is Michael Easter.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the show. Michael.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me back.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm looking forward to chatting again. It's always funny to you.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree. I enjoyed our last podcast, which felt like

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't that long ago. But when I went back

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of double check that, I realized it was

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<v Speaker 2>five years ago, which is nuts. How fast this is

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<v Speaker 2>all going.

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<v Speaker 3>I know.

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<v Speaker 5>I told my wife was like, what are you doing?

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<v Speaker 5>So I'm gone on podcasts? You said, oh, what is it?

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<v Speaker 5>And I told her it was yours. She goes, have

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<v Speaker 5>you ever been on that? And I said yeah, and

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<v Speaker 5>she goes, oh, when was that same deal? I was like,

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<v Speaker 5>I want to say it was like a year ago,

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<v Speaker 5>but if I actually look, it's like half a decade ago.

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<v Speaker 3>Man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, It's it's pretty wild. How all the cliche things

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<v Speaker 2>that are that our parents and teachers and everyone said

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<v Speaker 2>about how fast life goes, It's it's all very true. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>So here we are twenty I was about to say

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five. It's twenty twenty six now New Year,

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<v Speaker 2>and as I think, you know a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>do at this time of year, there's all this focus

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<v Speaker 2>on New Year's resolutions, new year, new you, setting new goals,

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<v Speaker 2>setting new plans, all of that. And I am one

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<v Speaker 2>of those nerds who gets into that. I'm very into that.

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<v Speaker 2>My wife and I literally had a sit down like

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<v Speaker 2>annual review last night, talking through our plan for the

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<v Speaker 2>new year and our goals and some things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But what's your take on that, What's what's your personal

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<v Speaker 2>take on, you know, this kind of new year, new

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<v Speaker 2>youth thing. And then what does the you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure if you've looked in this specifically, but do

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<v Speaker 2>you have any sense of what the literature says or

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<v Speaker 2>what the you know, the the research points to as

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<v Speaker 2>far as the effectiveness of setting your year kind of

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<v Speaker 2>on this kind of annual calendar type of reset.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, look, look, man, I think it's I

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<v Speaker 5>think it's good. Like people can change any time they want, right,

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<v Speaker 5>it's like to begin begin, but the new year gives

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<v Speaker 5>us an impetus to change. I think that set this

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<v Speaker 5>is the bad news when you look at their research,

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<v Speaker 5>most people fail, so like ninety five percent of New

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<v Speaker 5>Year's resolutions fail. Yeah, and there's a variety of reasons

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<v Speaker 5>for that, which I think we can get into in this,

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<v Speaker 5>But first I would actually like to hear how'd you

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<v Speaker 5>fair in your uh in your annual review? Tell me

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<v Speaker 5>all about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, without getting into too many of the gory details.

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<v Speaker 2>Twenty twenty five passed. I had a passing grade as

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<v Speaker 2>far as both my personal goals and what my wife

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<v Speaker 2>was hoping for from me. There's always a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of that, you know, friction, not friction, but just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're married, you know how it is with a marriage.

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<v Speaker 2>It's trying to bring together two totally different world views

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<v Speaker 2>and perspectives and lives to then say like are we

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<v Speaker 2>heading to the right direction? And are we going there

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<v Speaker 2>in the right ways? And so fortunately it's a great marriage.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a great wife, and so we're mostly on

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<v Speaker 2>the same page. But then there's always you know, you know, well,

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<v Speaker 2>she'll say things like can't you just be normal? And

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I don't know how to be normal. I

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<v Speaker 2>am what I am, so overall good, but with a

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<v Speaker 2>typical marriage fund, So what's exciting year for us.

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<v Speaker 5>What I like about that though, is that there was

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<v Speaker 5>some sort of analysis that happened. So I think one

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<v Speaker 5>problem that people run into and why these things often fail,

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<v Speaker 5>these resolutions, if you'll call them, is that there's no

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<v Speaker 5>analysis of well, where have I gone wrong?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>Right? We don't look.

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<v Speaker 5>Back and try and take measurements of what are my

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<v Speaker 5>weak points, what are my failures so I can improve

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<v Speaker 5>upon those weak points. Instead, people often say I'm going

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<v Speaker 5>to create this new big goal and I'm just going

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<v Speaker 5>to work towards that. But if you haven't fixed what

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<v Speaker 5>your biggest problems are, this is like trying to give

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<v Speaker 5>gas to these big new habits as you have your

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<v Speaker 5>foot on the break. So in my opinion, and I

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<v Speaker 5>think the research backs this, is that it is our

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<v Speaker 5>worst habits that really hold us back. Like if you

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<v Speaker 5>don't fix your worst habits, you're not going to go

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<v Speaker 5>forward at all. So I say that because I like

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<v Speaker 5>how you did that analysis, and I think that a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of people would benefit in the new year instead

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<v Speaker 5>of picking some random goal and saying, no, I'm going

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<v Speaker 5>to do this big thing, it's going to change my life.

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<v Speaker 5>To look back and go, Okay, well, what do I

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<v Speaker 5>think is actually holding me back? And what can I

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<v Speaker 5>do to sort of alleviate that whatever whatever it might be.

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<v Speaker 5>Oftentimes you don't have to set a big new goal.

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<v Speaker 5>If you just take your foot off that break, all

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<v Speaker 5>of a sudden, everything else will start changing. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>I think the extreme kit to just give an extreme case,

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<v Speaker 5>because I think people like examples.

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<v Speaker 3>For me at least it helps them stick.

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<v Speaker 5>Is if you think about someone who's let's say an alcoholic, right,

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<v Speaker 5>people who are in the grips of drinking will often go,

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<v Speaker 5>I just need to exercise more. I just need to

0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.680
<v Speaker 5>eat a healthy diet. My life will improve. I just

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.200
<v Speaker 5>need to do X y Z. It's like, but if

0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 5>this person, if your fundamental problem is that, like you

0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.600
<v Speaker 5>have this terrible habit of drinking too much, it doesn't

0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.240
<v Speaker 5>matter all the good stuff you do, like, you're still

0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 5>going to be held back in life. So it's like,

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.920
<v Speaker 5>how can you just pull your foot off the break

0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.080
<v Speaker 5>of that bad thing? And then oftentimes everything will sort

0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 5>itself out afterwards.

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.120
<v Speaker 2>So I got to believe that most of your work

0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.480
<v Speaker 2>around this for people, or I think why many people

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.800
<v Speaker 2>come to you really is how do they you know,

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.560
<v Speaker 2>build better habits, change their lifestyle, build better frameworks and

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.720
<v Speaker 2>systems to have a healthier, more satisfying life, et cetera.

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 2>But on this topic of goals and and you know,

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.319
<v Speaker 2>developing some sense of direction of where you want to

0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.720
<v Speaker 2>take things, whether it's eliminating a bad habit or adding

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 2>a better habit, or setting some kind of stretch goal

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.199
<v Speaker 2>or taking on something challenging. What happens when you apply

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:33.200
<v Speaker 2>that to a recreational pursuit? You know? I mean, there's

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.120
<v Speaker 2>there's the thought around, like hunters and anglers, we do

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.080
<v Speaker 2>this thing that brings us joy, that that brings us peace.

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.480
<v Speaker 2>But then there's also the desire to set goals within that. Right,

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Increasingly people want to get the next big buck or

0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.320
<v Speaker 2>a bigger buck, or they want to get three bucks,

0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 2>or they want to do this big new fishing trip

0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:57.040
<v Speaker 2>or achieve this grand slam thing. Fish x y Z states,

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.960
<v Speaker 2>there's all these different ways that we gamify recreation in

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 2>our pursuits and passions. What's the impact of that? Is that?

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:05.880
<v Speaker 4>Is there a.

0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Danger in that? Is that a healthy thing to do?

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Does that risk our enjoyment or help it?

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:13.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.680
<v Speaker 5>I'm going to answer that multiple ways, because I feel

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 5>like there's kind of a layering of questions in there,

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:22.800
<v Speaker 5>which I like. So on one hand, it's good to

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.760
<v Speaker 5>have a big goal, right it inspires you, maybe starts

0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.280
<v Speaker 5>you to get acting. But the problem often is that

0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.480
<v Speaker 5>if the goal is way too big, you start to fail,

0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.360
<v Speaker 5>and when you start to get the negative feedback towards failure,

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.600
<v Speaker 5>people often quit. And it's also asking for a lot

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 5>of change at once. So I think sometimes it's better

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 5>to break things up into manageable sections and to think, Okay,

0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.480
<v Speaker 5>my goal is to complete this Grand Slam or whatever,

0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.680
<v Speaker 5>but what are the ten things I'm going to have

0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 5>to do in order to actually reach that? And so

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.080
<v Speaker 5>the goal becomes the first step of that because that's

0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 5>a lot more easy to reach. And so once you've

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 5>hit that, you get some momentum, you get this positive feedback,

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 5>and you can start to build on that positive feedback.

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.080
<v Speaker 5>So I wouldn't you know, I'm not the type of

0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 5>person to say, like, oh, just just pick the easiest

0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 5>goal and go for that, because I think that can

0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 5>be limiting to people. Keep your big goal, but how

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 5>can you chop it up into much more manageable steps.

0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 5>I mean, like A big part of my so might

0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:36.360
<v Speaker 5>substack newsletter is called the two percent newsletter, and it's

0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 5>the name comes from a study that found that only

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 5>two percent of people take the stairs when there's an

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.960
<v Speaker 5>escalator available. Now, to me, one hundred percent of people

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:45.600
<v Speaker 5>know that taking the stairs is going to be better

0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 5>for their health, well being, their mental health, all these

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 5>different things, and yet ninety percent of people just default

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.720
<v Speaker 5>to the easy, effortless thing where if you can just

0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 5>start with the stairs, one set of stairs is not

0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 5>going to change your life. But if you take the

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 5>next setistairs, the next setistairs, and then you go, oh,

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.400
<v Speaker 5>you know what, by going through that little bit of discomfort,

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 5>I sort of improved. And where else can I apply

0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 5>that two percent mindset across the board to different things?

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 5>Now I'm parking in the farthest spot of the parking lot,

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 5>Now I'm going you know what, I'm not going to

0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 5>eat those oreos before I go to bed or whatever.

0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 5>It might be just like finding these little wins, and

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 5>I think those wins can stack up and that can

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.280
<v Speaker 5>be applied to these larger goals too, of like, Okay,

0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 5>what's the next small win I can do?

0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 3>What can I do?

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 5>Today to sort of get me there, and you sort

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 5>of keep doing that and then you find yourself going,

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, I just I just complained to this

0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 5>grand slam.

0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I like the way that James Clear puts it.

0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.800
<v Speaker 2>He says something something along the lines of, you know,

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 2>every action you take is a vote for the kind

0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>of person you want to be.

0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:52.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.240
<v Speaker 2>I thought about that a lot. It's like, Okay, this

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.160
<v Speaker 2>is this is something that signals my end state that

0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to be at it. This is the kind

0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 2>of thing that that kind of person would do, and

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:01.800
<v Speaker 2>so I'm gonna start to do that kind of thing,

0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 2>take the stairs, or drink the water or whatever it

0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.680
<v Speaker 2>might be. It's those little things that, to your point,

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.320
<v Speaker 2>they stack up. And I don't know if you meant

0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.720
<v Speaker 2>this with your you know, or at least when I

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.160
<v Speaker 2>first saw you the title for your newsletter. The two

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.919
<v Speaker 2>percent thought that I had was not only is two

0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.040
<v Speaker 2>percent representative of the small minority of people who will

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.760
<v Speaker 2>do the harder thing, but I also think that also

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 2>if you think about doing the harder thing, it's getting

0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 2>like two percent better every day or every week. That's

0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>how we get better at anything. That's how we grow

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.840
<v Speaker 2>that's how we build satisfaction or accomplishment or whatever. It's

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.000
<v Speaker 2>by like stacking up these little one percents here, two

0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>percents here, week after week, year after year. That's something

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 2>we talk about in the hunting world all the time.

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.119
<v Speaker 2>It's it's stacking all these tiny little variables, getting a

0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>little better in all these different little ways over time,

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 2>and that compounds, and so that mindset, I think, you

0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 2>know there's a lot to it.

0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And you know it's not two percent of people

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.280
<v Speaker 5>climb everest, it's two percent of people take a freaking

0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.280
<v Speaker 5>staircase right at Sometimes the most obvious wins in life,

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.159
<v Speaker 5>we just neglect them. I think a lot of this

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.639
<v Speaker 5>goes back to like our evolutionary wiring of we're effectively

0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.040
<v Speaker 5>wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing, because

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:15.280
<v Speaker 5>that always kept us alive in these harsh environments. But

0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 5>now we've engineered our world for comfort and ease, we

0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:20.679
<v Speaker 5>still have that sort of wiring that pushed us to

0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.600
<v Speaker 5>do the easy thing, even though it doesn't help us

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.640
<v Speaker 5>in the long run. So it's sort of overcoming that

0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.640
<v Speaker 5>in different ways all the time. And then to sort

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.840
<v Speaker 5>of continue answering the question that you asked a bit ago,

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:38.000
<v Speaker 5>and you you basically asked about gamifying habits.

0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 3>Okay, to me, that's a double edged sword.

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 5>On one hand, having gamification and numbers can incentivize people

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.199
<v Speaker 5>because it allows us to measure and see our improvements.

0:18:55.600 --> 0:19:00.080
<v Speaker 5>The downside, though, is that the way that we gamify

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:05.399
<v Speaker 5>things narrows the goal to a set of numbers, and

0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.720
<v Speaker 5>we get fixated on those numbers, whereas if we look

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:13.840
<v Speaker 5>at the actual big thing we're trying to accomplish, it's

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.159
<v Speaker 5>often not to just get a number. I'll use the

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:23.200
<v Speaker 5>example of like fitness trackers and step counts, so people

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 5>will get a step counter. So we're gonna quantify our activity.

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 5>We're gonna tell ourselves I need to get twelve thousand

0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.400
<v Speaker 5>steps a day. So you start to like, okay, twelve

0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.120
<v Speaker 5>thousand's my number, right, goal, go twelve thousand. I got

0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.000
<v Speaker 5>to get this twelve thousand every day, and you get

0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:41.280
<v Speaker 5>fixated on that number.

0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.439
<v Speaker 3>But if you pull back, what is the point? What

0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 3>is the overall point?

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.160
<v Speaker 5>The overall point is not to get twelve thousand steps

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.880
<v Speaker 5>a day. The overall point is to become a more

0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.399
<v Speaker 5>active person. Why do we want to become a more

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.640
<v Speaker 5>active person, so we can get healthier, maybe our mindset

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.880
<v Speaker 5>will improve, maybe will be less stressed, all these other

0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.840
<v Speaker 5>thing But when we start to fixate on the number,

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.879
<v Speaker 5>we often lose sight of those bigger, larger goals, and

0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.760
<v Speaker 5>that can sometimes steer us wrong. So it's again, it's

0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 5>one of those double edged swords, and you have to

0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:15.320
<v Speaker 5>kind of realize, how is the gamification helping push me

0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.120
<v Speaker 5>towards this larger like this larger goal I'm going for,

0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.240
<v Speaker 5>But you also have to avoid getting sucked into just

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.800
<v Speaker 5>the goal of this number for the sake of the number.

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:25.720
<v Speaker 5>If that makes sense.

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 2>It does. And here's another kind of double edged sword

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.119
<v Speaker 2>issue within this that I've wrestled with a lot, is

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.160
<v Speaker 2>like this tendency that many of us have to want

0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.800
<v Speaker 2>to be achievement oriented, to want to grow, to want

0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:46.080
<v Speaker 2>to get better at something, and how that impacts something

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:51.680
<v Speaker 2>that is a passion, a recreational pursuit. Again going back

0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.440
<v Speaker 2>to this core example of like hunting or fishing, right,

0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 2>for a lot of people, they come to that as

0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.040
<v Speaker 2>just like a thing for fun. And you write about

0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>in the Comfort Crisis about the importance of you know,

0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:06.760
<v Speaker 2>having space and peace and boredom and quiet time and

0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:08.880
<v Speaker 2>all of that. And you experience that in the Arctic

0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.119
<v Speaker 2>when hunting with Downey, and I think many other people

0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.880
<v Speaker 2>do when they're deer hunting or fishing or anything like that. Right,

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.199
<v Speaker 2>that's a place for you know, it's not necessarily boredom,

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.560
<v Speaker 2>but it's it's space and quiet and indifferent than normal

0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:25.600
<v Speaker 2>everyday life. But then so many times this thing all

0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.080
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden like builds momentum, and all of a

0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:29.560
<v Speaker 2>sudden it's like, well, now I want to get more

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.239
<v Speaker 2>or I want to get better, I want to do this,

0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and so you start attaching goals to this thing where

0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, what was just a fun, peaceful

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:44.359
<v Speaker 2>joy experience transitions to this achievement experience, and all the

0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:45.960
<v Speaker 2>things that you just talked about there where all of

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.160
<v Speaker 2>a sudden it's like I need to get ten fish,

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.359
<v Speaker 2>I need to kill you know, one hundred and seventy

0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:52.320
<v Speaker 2>five inch buck, or I need to do whatever the

0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:53.679
<v Speaker 2>thing is. And then all of a sudden, there's not

0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:58.320
<v Speaker 2>only the you know, there's not only kind of this like

0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>reinforcing effect of chasing, you know, losing sight of the

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 2>forest for the trees kind of thing, but then you're

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:09.600
<v Speaker 2>also attaching pressures to it, and I don't know. I mean,

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.200
<v Speaker 2>there's there's these two things that there's the value of

0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 2>doing hard things that you talk about so often it

0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:16.960
<v Speaker 2>makes a lot of sense, But then there's also this

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.360
<v Speaker 2>value to sometimes just having experiences or just joy for

0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.359
<v Speaker 2>the sake of that too, like being a human. How

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.560
<v Speaker 2>do you reconcile that?

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:33.399
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think your example of Antler scores is that

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.040
<v Speaker 5>the correct terminology. Yeah, that's a perfect example. Yeah, where

0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.280
<v Speaker 5>it's like, why'd you start hunting in the first place?

0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.280
<v Speaker 5>Probably day one, it wasn't oh I want to get

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.000
<v Speaker 5>one hundred and seventy five, Like it's just it's such

0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 5>an arbitrary y exactly, But once you get deeper into it,

0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.360
<v Speaker 5>that becomes the goal and like not really the goal

0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.960
<v Speaker 5>of hunting is like you're going to get outside, You're

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 5>going to move around, You're going to engage in this

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 5>practice that humans have engaged in ever since we started

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.639
<v Speaker 5>walking on two feet, and even before then when we

0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:04.560
<v Speaker 5>weren't even humans.

0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Right. So for me.

0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 5>To answer your question about how do I sort of

0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:15.399
<v Speaker 5>balance those things, I just try and not pay attention

0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:18.040
<v Speaker 5>to the numbers. I try and always ask myself why

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 5>am I doing this thing in the first place? I

0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.760
<v Speaker 5>could apply that to like, I don't know weekly run mileages.

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 5>I've never really gotten into antler size and hunting, and

0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.439
<v Speaker 5>I don't hunt all that often, maybe like once a

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:34.720
<v Speaker 5>year about the past couple of years.

0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Haven't made it out at all. I just like, I

0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:38.359
<v Speaker 3>don't know.

0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.520
<v Speaker 5>I'm just very cognizant of the fact that, Okay, why, I'm.

0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 3>Always going back to the why, the deeper why? What's that?

0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.600
<v Speaker 5>Like a istn't there's some practice in Toyota. The guy

0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 5>who found a Toyota was like, you got to ask

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.320
<v Speaker 5>why six times?

0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:53.840
<v Speaker 2>Interesting?

0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:55.960
<v Speaker 3>So you go, okay, well why are we doing this?

0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.399
<v Speaker 3>But why? Let's the answer to that. But why?

0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 5>And then once you get down to the sixth time,

0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.840
<v Speaker 5>you're like that, that's what we're after right there. So

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 5>I think if people can do that, you can sort

0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:10.840
<v Speaker 5>of get back to the original joy and purpose of

0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:17.840
<v Speaker 5>an activity you're doing. M and I will I will

0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 5>admit this is like very philosophical, right I. Unfortunately with

0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:23.480
<v Speaker 5>a question like this, I can't give you, Well, here's

0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:25.800
<v Speaker 5>my three step framework. Just do exactly this and your

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.000
<v Speaker 5>life will change immediately. It's like, well, life is actually

0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.280
<v Speaker 5>a lot more complicated than that. Yeah, which is probably why,

0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:35.520
<v Speaker 5>which is probably why I don't know my sub stack

0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:37.400
<v Speaker 5>couldn't be as good if I could, couldn't have as

0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.320
<v Speaker 5>many subscribers. If I would just say, here's a secret

0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:41.159
<v Speaker 5>to life, two steps to do it, pay me my

0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:42.600
<v Speaker 5>seven dollars month, we'll move on.

0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:53.640
<v Speaker 4>Uh huh.

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, well to your point that life is not black

0:24:56.600 --> 0:25:00.639
<v Speaker 2>and white and simple. It is complex, and your work

0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:05.400
<v Speaker 2>I think ties in very well and is a part

0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:11.440
<v Speaker 2>of a growing collection of thinkers and writers and other

0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:17.919
<v Speaker 2>people exploring something that I think is succinctly I mean,

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:21.880
<v Speaker 2>you call it the comfort crisis. Another way of describing

0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:23.480
<v Speaker 2>that I saw with the title of book is like

0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:28.840
<v Speaker 2>the extinction of experience, that being kind of this losing,

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:32.239
<v Speaker 2>this losing connection to like, our humanity because of all

0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.080
<v Speaker 2>of these different forces of the modern day kind of

0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 2>bearing in on us. Whether that be more and more

0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:40.400
<v Speaker 2>people living in cities and all the chaos that comes

0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 2>with that, whether it be the addiction to screen time

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.399
<v Speaker 2>you've written about that of course, whether it be the

0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 2>way that corporations are hijacking our psychology to get us

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.280
<v Speaker 2>to go deeper and deeper into all those things. Now

0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.679
<v Speaker 2>you have AI, which is infiltrating our lives in all

0:25:56.720 --> 0:26:00.359
<v Speaker 2>these different places, and now you know whether it's filling

0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.600
<v Speaker 2>all media with a bunch of AI slop, whether it

0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 2>be distorting what we can believe is true or not,

0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:10.399
<v Speaker 2>or whether it be actually like creating intermediaries where we

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:14.879
<v Speaker 2>are now interfacing with machine intelligences instead of real people

0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:18.240
<v Speaker 2>when we have relationship problems, or when we need advice,

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:21.439
<v Speaker 2>or when we look for answers to questions. There's all

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.480
<v Speaker 2>of these things that are pulling us further and further

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 2>away from being I think what we what a fundamentally

0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:31.160
<v Speaker 2>means to be a human. And I feel like hunters

0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:34.560
<v Speaker 2>and anglers, like outdoors people are fortunate and that we've

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:41.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe stumbled into one of the potential antidotes to much

0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:45.480
<v Speaker 2>of this. But even within this community, I know from

0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:48.080
<v Speaker 2>myself experiencing it and from talking to many other people

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:50.760
<v Speaker 2>like we're feeling it too. We're still experiencing many of

0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:54.720
<v Speaker 2>these other things. So you wrote The Comfort Crisis five

0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:59.760
<v Speaker 2>years ago, You've you've done similar We've explored this overarching

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:02.680
<v Speaker 2>top I've talked about in the Scarcity of Brain. I'm

0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.520
<v Speaker 2>sure in your new book you're working on. I know

0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:09.320
<v Speaker 2>in your newsletter, what is your prognosis of where we

0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:13.119
<v Speaker 2>are today five years after the Comfort Crisis was published?

0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Now that AI is overwhelming, We're in a different world

0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:18.760
<v Speaker 2>than we were five six years ago when you worked

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:21.880
<v Speaker 2>on that first major piece. What's your sense of where

0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:23.560
<v Speaker 2>we are right now? And are the things that you

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:28.480
<v Speaker 2>started writing about then more important now less important? Do

0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:30.320
<v Speaker 2>you have a different perspective in any kind of way?

0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 3>I think they're more important.

0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:38.560
<v Speaker 5>I will say that there are signs that people are

0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:43.280
<v Speaker 5>starting to realize this, probably because I mean, you know,

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 5>like you said, there's people writing, but a lot of

0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:47.400
<v Speaker 5>people are noticing this and writing about it and thinking

0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:49.479
<v Speaker 5>about it and thinking what can we do about it?

0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:51.200
<v Speaker 5>Like I read an article in the New York Times

0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:52.840
<v Speaker 5>the other day about a group of high school kids

0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:56.320
<v Speaker 5>who went back to flipflons just started hanging out in person.

0:27:57.000 --> 0:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>That's great, yea.

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:01.960
<v Speaker 5>At the same time, these are rare instances. I think

0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:05.480
<v Speaker 5>technology the point of technology is to make life easier,

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:11.840
<v Speaker 5>more thoughtless, more effortless, more nice, comfortable.

0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Whatever.

0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:15.240
<v Speaker 5>The problem is is that humans don't grow and learn

0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:20.240
<v Speaker 5>through everything being effortless and comfortable. I think a lot

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:24.280
<v Speaker 5>of the thing. There's fundamental problems with the technology, but

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:26.840
<v Speaker 5>I think one of the biggest problems is that it

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:29.359
<v Speaker 5>takes us out of the experiences that we need to

0:28:29.440 --> 0:28:33.160
<v Speaker 5>have in order to be healthy, happy.

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:36.480
<v Speaker 3>And well. So, what are you doing when you are

0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 3>sitting at home on your phone watching the seventy ninth

0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:48.120
<v Speaker 3>Instagram reel of the last you know? Five minutes you're indoors.

0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 3>You're not outside.

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 5>The temperature is perfect, right, it's exactly dial to your specification,

0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:57.240
<v Speaker 5>so you're not getting any sort of outside friction from

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:02.320
<v Speaker 5>the weather and temperature changes. You're also not moving right,

0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 5>You're not moving your body. You're not with other people

0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:09.560
<v Speaker 5>because you're sucked into this device. There could be your

0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 5>wife or your kid could be sitting right next to you,

0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.760
<v Speaker 5>but you're not with them at all. And so I

0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:18.000
<v Speaker 5>think that fundamentally technology is taking us out of these

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:20.520
<v Speaker 5>things that are really important for us. Whereas if you

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:24.320
<v Speaker 5>go out on a hunt with your friend or your

0:29:24.840 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 5>son or daughter, what happens all of a sudden you're outside.

0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:32.280
<v Speaker 5>There's a million reasons why being outside is good for us.

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.400
<v Speaker 5>Some of them we don't fully understand. We just know

0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:36.400
<v Speaker 5>that all the data says that being outside is really

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 5>good for us too.

0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:39.320
<v Speaker 3>You're having to move your body.

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 5>That's very good for us. Best thing you can do

0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 5>long term for your health, and longevy is moving. You're

0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:51.800
<v Speaker 5>also with the other person, right, and you're not just

0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 5>with them b yesing, you're on a quest together that's

0:29:55.800 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 5>really important. The quest is to this like goal of

0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 5>finding a buck, right. Humans are most happy and engaged

0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 5>when we have a goal or a mission to accomplish.

0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 5>Even if you don't get along with the person, if

0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:16.000
<v Speaker 5>you put two people on a mission together, that'll repair

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.320
<v Speaker 5>relationship really best. And there's actually data that suggests this

0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 5>insert like twenty to thirty other really good things that

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.719
<v Speaker 5>are happening in that environment. So I think the fundamental

0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 5>issue as technology is taken over, which don't get me wrong,

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 5>it's had a ton of upsides, but is that it's

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:37.120
<v Speaker 5>removed us from the things that make us most well.

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 5>So then the question I think for me and everyone

0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:44.760
<v Speaker 5>else becomes, Okay, how can I get back to those

0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:48.160
<v Speaker 5>rhythms that humans you still live and exist in for

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 5>all of time? But also I'm not telling people to go,

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:55.960
<v Speaker 5>you know, build a yurt and hunting fish for all

0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 5>of their food. But it is like, how do you

0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 5>how do you find small ways to weave that into

0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 5>your daily life every single day, whether it's just like

0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:07.080
<v Speaker 5>a walk on the trail by your house with your

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:12.080
<v Speaker 5>kid or your spouse, and then also in bigger things

0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.920
<v Speaker 5>like your you know, your annual hunt, your insert whatever

0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:16.400
<v Speaker 5>it might be.

0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel like a lot of a lot of

0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:27.240
<v Speaker 2>this for me echoes an idea within conservation. There's this

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:32.120
<v Speaker 2>idea of rewilding, and so in many places across the world,

0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>we've lost wildlife species that used to exist in that region,

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and there's a growing movement now rather than just trying

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 2>to stop the bleeding where species are disappearing, they're actually

0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:48.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to rewild areas, so bring back these native species

0:31:48.960 --> 0:31:51.480
<v Speaker 2>that used to exist on the landscape. And I feel

0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:53.720
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of what you've prescribed, and a lot

0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:55.480
<v Speaker 2>of what some of these other people have talked about

0:31:55.800 --> 0:31:59.320
<v Speaker 2>is almost like rewilding our lives. I've thought a lot about,

0:31:59.320 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>like my general philosophy of this, and much of what

0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I've taken from the Comfort Crisis, from your other writing

0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 2>is like ways to bring back our wild past, our

0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>evolutionary history. What it means to be human if you

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 2>want to keep it a little simpler and bring that

0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:17.080
<v Speaker 2>back into us, make us wild again, make us human again.

0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:20.280
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a big part of why hunters and

0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:22.920
<v Speaker 2>anglers love doing this and being a part of this

0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:25.800
<v Speaker 2>and having that lifestyle. And I think, you know, many

0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:28.360
<v Speaker 2>of these other things that can help us deal with

0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:31.560
<v Speaker 2>modernity in general all kind of tie back to that

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:37.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of rewilding idea. But one thing I've noticed is

0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.960
<v Speaker 2>that even when doing the right things, like you talked about,

0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.000
<v Speaker 2>you've written about the importance of nature, the many different

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 2>benefits of being outside. Right, there's all sorts of studies

0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>that you've referenced about, you know, the ways that sounds

0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:54.600
<v Speaker 2>and smells and fractals and all these different things give

0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:57.880
<v Speaker 2>us real physiological benefits, right, And hunters and anglers have

0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 2>stumbled on this, and we have, accidentally, you know, in

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:03.720
<v Speaker 2>many ways, built a life around being outside. And that's great,

0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.440
<v Speaker 2>and we're all benefiting from it. But even those of

0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 2>us who do this stuff, we're still bringing in this

0:33:09.720 --> 0:33:13.320
<v Speaker 2>outside world. And I remember reading that there's this idea,

0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:15.280
<v Speaker 2>the three day effect that you talked about, which is like,

0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:18.000
<v Speaker 2>after three days in the back country, it's like a

0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 2>mental re there's something really special that happens after three

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:22.840
<v Speaker 2>days in the wild in the back country, right, both

0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>of us have experienced that. But then a very important

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 2>qualifier was including that, which is that if you have

0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>your phone, it negates that. And I'm curious if you

0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:35.240
<v Speaker 2>can expand on that a little bit because I feel

0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:38.960
<v Speaker 2>like there's an epidemic of phone use by hunters too.

0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>And I've like there's memes that go around. There's like,

0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, people saying, like what hunting was, and you know,

0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:49.960
<v Speaker 2>the year nineteen fifty was somebody actually out there hunting.

0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:52.560
<v Speaker 2>What hunting is in twenty twenty five is a guy

0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:54.920
<v Speaker 2>sitting in a tree looking at you know, Instagram reels

0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:59.720
<v Speaker 2>for four hours. So how does introducing our phones and

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>in time to our outdoor pursuits maybe changing the benefits,

0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:09.440
<v Speaker 2>changing the experience, pulling away from what's actually supposed to be.

0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:14.879
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, big picture is that you're not actually hunting, you're

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:15.560
<v Speaker 5>on your phone.

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:16.400
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:21.200
<v Speaker 5>So there's some interesting studies and they there's a lot

0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:24.760
<v Speaker 5>of these. A short term one was at the University

0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:28.800
<v Speaker 5>of Utah. They took people to this outdoor area outside

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.680
<v Speaker 5>of Salt Lake City and they had one group do

0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:35.239
<v Speaker 5>a hike, they couldn't use their phone at all. They

0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.080
<v Speaker 5>had another group take the hike, but they could use

0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:40.759
<v Speaker 5>their phone. They could call people, they could look at it,

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:42.719
<v Speaker 5>whatever the hell they wanted to do. And when they

0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:45.840
<v Speaker 5>got back, they measured stress levels attention levels of the

0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:48.920
<v Speaker 5>two groups, and the people who were on their phone

0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:54.560
<v Speaker 5>saw no benefits, whereas the people who weren't on their

0:34:54.560 --> 0:34:57.239
<v Speaker 5>phone couldn't use their phone, their stress levels had gone

0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:00.840
<v Speaker 5>down significantly, their attention levels had been restored.

0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Focus was much better.

0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:05.840
<v Speaker 5>All these different markers improved, and then the longer term studies,

0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:09.759
<v Speaker 5>like the three day effect, same thing happens. If a

0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.200
<v Speaker 5>person is using their phone for a lot of the

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:16.239
<v Speaker 5>time outdoors, it just sort of negates all the benefits

0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:18.200
<v Speaker 5>that you get from that, and it goes back to attention.

0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:22.800
<v Speaker 5>So if I'm in the wilderness and I'm paying attention,

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:27.640
<v Speaker 5>i don't have my phone, your brain goes into this

0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:30.080
<v Speaker 5>mode that researchers call and this is a terrible name.

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:33.000
<v Speaker 5>It should never allow scientists to come up with names.

0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:37.240
<v Speaker 5>It's called soft fascination. And what you can think about

0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:39.239
<v Speaker 5>it is it's sort of like sort of like a

0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:42.760
<v Speaker 5>form of meditation, but with meditation, you're kind of going inward.

0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:47.560
<v Speaker 5>It's almost an outward meditation where you're sort of lightly

0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:52.400
<v Speaker 5>focusing on all this stuff around, this natural stuff, and

0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:54.960
<v Speaker 5>that does really good things for the brain. Once you

0:35:55.000 --> 0:35:57.160
<v Speaker 5>insert a phone, not only are you taking yourself out

0:35:57.160 --> 0:35:59.399
<v Speaker 5>of that, but what are you looking at on your phone?

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:03.279
<v Speaker 5>If you're on Instagram reels, you're like, Okay, here's a

0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:06.480
<v Speaker 5>fight video that's going to stress me out. Here's some

0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:09.480
<v Speaker 5>political video that's going to stress me out. Here's some

0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:12.320
<v Speaker 5>news about all the terrible things happening in the world

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.279
<v Speaker 5>that's going to stress me out. And so you're just

0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:20.000
<v Speaker 5>adding this outside stressor and while not getting all the benefits. Now,

0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.880
<v Speaker 5>I think that there's a balance to be found. So,

0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:27.480
<v Speaker 5>for example, I did this. It's about eight hundred and

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:33.080
<v Speaker 5>fifty mile route in southern Utah in the spring last year.

0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:36.880
<v Speaker 5>It takes about forty five days. Now, I could have

0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:41.319
<v Speaker 5>carried in all these topo maps right, but now I'm

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 5>not going to do that, like so many damn maps,

0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:44.720
<v Speaker 5>so heavy.

0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:46.239
<v Speaker 3>So I brought my.

0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:50.560
<v Speaker 5>Phone and I used a GPS mapping application for that.

0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 5>So I had to be on my phone occasionally out there,

0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 5>but I didn't have service. I didn't download anything. I

0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:01.240
<v Speaker 5>didn't download pods, even yours.

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:01.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry.

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:06.560
<v Speaker 5>I didn't download a bunch of music and stuff. I

0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:08.879
<v Speaker 5>only use my phone when I really needed to use it,

0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:11.320
<v Speaker 5>and I also asked myself, do I really need to

0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:14.719
<v Speaker 5>use this phone? So, for example, when you navigate, you

0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:17.719
<v Speaker 5>can do it two ways. You can stare down at

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.560
<v Speaker 5>the thing and look at the blue dot and follow

0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 5>the line the whole time, or you can actually pull

0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:25.359
<v Speaker 5>back and read the map and go, Okay, here's where

0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:26.840
<v Speaker 5>I am situated in this landscape.

0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:28.919
<v Speaker 3>If I look, oh, I can see a bluff over there.

0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:32.160
<v Speaker 5>Looks like I just kind of need to walk toward

0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:34.439
<v Speaker 5>that bluff, and it might be five miles. I don't

0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:35.880
<v Speaker 5>need to look at my phone. I just know I

0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:38.400
<v Speaker 5>generally need to go in that direction, and so that

0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.680
<v Speaker 5>way I can pay attention. So I think there's a

0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 5>good balance to be found with technology because it can

0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:48.880
<v Speaker 5>absolutely help us. I know, like apps like on x

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 5>really help a lot of hunters. But the question is

0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:56.279
<v Speaker 5>how reliant are you going to be on that? How

0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:58.400
<v Speaker 5>much of your attention are you focusing on that? And

0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:00.320
<v Speaker 5>can you sort of just use it to the minimum

0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:03.399
<v Speaker 5>effective dose that you need to users as a use

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.960
<v Speaker 5>it as a tool rather than it sort of using you.

0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>So on that line of thinking of the technology using you,

0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 2>I feel like the best example that might be social media. Right,

0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:21.560
<v Speaker 2>can you expand a little bit on just how and

0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:27.000
<v Speaker 2>why social media can be still particularly dangerous or toxic

0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:31.040
<v Speaker 2>slash addicting? Spell that out a little bit for us.

0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:34.680
<v Speaker 5>I'll give you a surprising answer for the same exact

0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:40.600
<v Speaker 5>reason hunting is addicting. So social media works on random rewards.

0:38:42.080 --> 0:38:47.919
<v Speaker 5>Random rewards capture the attention of every single animal, always have. Now,

0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:53.120
<v Speaker 5>the difference is social media is able to really tweak

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:56.880
<v Speaker 5>that random reward schedule to get it to the perfect,

0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.919
<v Speaker 5>perfect amount of random rewards that keep us coming back.

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 3>And it's also very accessible.

0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:04.480
<v Speaker 5>So in my book Scarcity Debrain, I talk about this

0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:09.040
<v Speaker 5>thing called the scarcity loop, and it's the ultimate vehicle

0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:12.400
<v Speaker 5>for capturing human attention. And so I'm going to unpack

0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:14.600
<v Speaker 5>it's a little bit complicated, but bear with me. It's

0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:17.839
<v Speaker 5>got three parts. It's got opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick,

0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:22.040
<v Speaker 5>quick repeatability. So opportunity, you have an opportunity to get

0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:26.239
<v Speaker 5>something of value, unpredictable rewards. You know you'll get that

0:39:26.280 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 5>thing at some point, but you don't know when. You

0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:31.759
<v Speaker 5>don't know how valuable it'll be. And quick repeatability you

0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.399
<v Speaker 5>can immediately do the thing again to try and get

0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:37.600
<v Speaker 5>that thing of value. So with social media, if you

0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:42.080
<v Speaker 5>unpack that, it's opportunity. I might see a hilarious reel

0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 5>or a reel that makes me pissed off about politics,

0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:50.239
<v Speaker 5>or I might get a like or a DM, but

0:39:50.280 --> 0:39:54.680
<v Speaker 5>it's unpredictable. You don't know when that's going to happen, right,

0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:58.239
<v Speaker 5>Could happen in half a second, could happen in thirty seconds.

0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:00.440
<v Speaker 5>You don't know how valuable it's going to be. Is

0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.359
<v Speaker 5>it like a DM that's from someone I don't really

0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 5>know this person, that's a random request I don't like it.

0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:06.000
<v Speaker 3>Or is it like a.

0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:08.520
<v Speaker 5>DM being like, hey, come on my podcast and blah

0:40:08.560 --> 0:40:12.600
<v Speaker 5>blah blah, and then you can recheck and recheck and recheck.

0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 3>So it just points you into this book.

0:40:14.920 --> 0:40:18.600
<v Speaker 5>Right, And it's because it's on your person all the time. Now,

0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:23.239
<v Speaker 5>hunting works on the exact same schedule. Yeah, opportunity. You

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:29.120
<v Speaker 5>have an opportunity to kill a giant buck, but it's unpredictable.

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:31.479
<v Speaker 5>You don't know where the hell it is. You don't

0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:33.680
<v Speaker 5>know when you're going to see it. You don't know

0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:35.440
<v Speaker 5>if that oh I might have seen a buck, I

0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:37.719
<v Speaker 5>don't know if it's a was it actually dough or.

0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 3>Was it that giant buck I got on my camera?

0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:43.480
<v Speaker 5>And then you just repeat that. Right, you're out there

0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 5>and you're searching and searching for that buck. It's the

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:51.680
<v Speaker 5>exact same schedule that makes both of those activities so addicting.

0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 5>But what's happening in the meantime When you're hunting, you're outside,

0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.520
<v Speaker 5>you're moving around, you're often with friends, Like all these

0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:00.680
<v Speaker 5>good things are happening as you're in aged in that

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 5>three part game, as it were, Whereas with social you're

0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:08.520
<v Speaker 5>sitting at home, you're not doing anything. The stuff that's

0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:12.239
<v Speaker 5>coming into you is often making you ramped up, anxious,

0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:15.759
<v Speaker 5>anxietiss and you're not doing all these things that make

0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:18.840
<v Speaker 5>you better as a person. So the big question is,

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:22.200
<v Speaker 5>you know, with these sort of games that we get

0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:25.879
<v Speaker 5>pulled into and they're everywhere, Like basically I can tell

0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:29.480
<v Speaker 5>you if listeners open their phone and look at the

0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:32.160
<v Speaker 5>apps they spend the most time on, I will guarantee

0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.680
<v Speaker 5>that they fall into that scarcity loop, whether it's email,

0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:40.560
<v Speaker 5>whether it's sports betting, whether it's of course social media,

0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:47.080
<v Speaker 5>whether it's even finance apps, the exact same thing. But

0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:48.719
<v Speaker 5>the question is I lost my train of thought a

0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:55.600
<v Speaker 5>little bit. But the question is, is that three part game,

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:57.960
<v Speaker 5>that scarcity loop doing things that are helping you in

0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 5>the meantime rather than hurting you?

0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:07.920
<v Speaker 2>And I wonder, you know, given that, you know, what

0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:10.600
<v Speaker 2>do you you know in the case that there's positive

0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:13.320
<v Speaker 2>scarcity loops and there's negative scarcity loops like you mentioned,

0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:15.879
<v Speaker 2>and so in these ones, you know, like social media,

0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:19.359
<v Speaker 2>that seems so you know, so clear to so many

0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:21.960
<v Speaker 2>of us that there's these obvious negatives to it. But

0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:24.920
<v Speaker 2>for most of us, we kind of just fell into it.

0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:29.239
<v Speaker 2>We started using social media fifteen years ago or twenty

0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:31.840
<v Speaker 2>years ago or whatever, when everybody got a Facebook account,

0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and then the next thing was like, oh well, you

0:42:33.600 --> 0:42:35.200
<v Speaker 2>got to get an Instagram account, and then oh yeah,

0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:36.440
<v Speaker 2>you got to be on Twitter, and then oh yeah,

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.480
<v Speaker 2>you got to get on TikTok, and you're just kind

0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:41.120
<v Speaker 2>of doing it and using it, and then all of

0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:43.799
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, you said this earlier, it starts to use

0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.520
<v Speaker 2>you and we don't even realize it. But it becomes

0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:49.239
<v Speaker 2>a compulsion. It becomes this thing that you're doing, and

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:51.399
<v Speaker 2>you don't know why you're doing it. It doesn't bring

0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:54.680
<v Speaker 2>you all that much value. And then to your point,

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:56.640
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, all this time goes by and

0:42:56.880 --> 0:42:59.439
<v Speaker 2>you have nothing to show for it, and you write

0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 2>about this and scarcity brain, the fact that there's Yeah,

0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:05.600
<v Speaker 2>this isn't happening by chance. This is not random. This

0:43:05.760 --> 0:43:13.000
<v Speaker 2>is highly engineered by people using very you know, seriously

0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 2>researched practices to take advantage of our psychology to do this,

0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:20.880
<v Speaker 2>to hijack our brains to do this. So we're up

0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:24.520
<v Speaker 2>against like a serious challenge here. It's not just that

0:43:24.520 --> 0:43:27.160
<v Speaker 2>we are like weak minded people. It's also that people

0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:31.239
<v Speaker 2>are using very sophisticated like weaponizing of this stuff that

0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:33.400
<v Speaker 2>we think is like a fun little thing for us

0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:35.120
<v Speaker 2>to look at. But instead there's people on the other

0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:38.759
<v Speaker 2>side who are really gearing this to suck us in.

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:40.920
<v Speaker 2>How do you break out of that? How do we

0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:42.360
<v Speaker 2>reclaim some kind of control.

0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.919
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so that just for context, why we fall into

0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.440
<v Speaker 5>this this system, the reason we're attracted to it is

0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:53.719
<v Speaker 5>evolved out of hunting and hunting and gathering in our ancestors.

0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:57.520
<v Speaker 5>Like I said, hunting is hunting and gathering. It is

0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:01.600
<v Speaker 5>fundamentally a random awards game, and if humans weren't inherently

0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:05.919
<v Speaker 5>attracted to that and willing to keep playing it all day.

0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:08.480
<v Speaker 3>We would have all died off today.

0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.279
<v Speaker 5>Though it gets put into like you said, all these

0:44:11.280 --> 0:44:14.000
<v Speaker 5>different technologies, and in the book, I actually talk about

0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:17.120
<v Speaker 5>how we really started to figure out how to tweak

0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:20.720
<v Speaker 5>it perfectly for the desires of corporations in Las Vegas

0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.759
<v Speaker 5>in the eighties. It's crazy story, But how do you

0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:27.600
<v Speaker 5>get out of it? Like I said, there's three parts,

0:44:29.080 --> 0:44:32.000
<v Speaker 5>and if you just remove or change any of the

0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:36.200
<v Speaker 5>three parts, you can fix it. So for me, the

0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:40.880
<v Speaker 5>biggest part that's relatively easy to tweak is that quick repeatability.

0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:45.080
<v Speaker 5>So the faster you can do a behavior, the more

0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:50.160
<v Speaker 5>likely you are to do a behavior. If we had

0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.480
<v Speaker 5>to say, run a mile to check our Instagram, no

0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 5>one would check their damn Instagram like ever, So I

0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:00.400
<v Speaker 5>think the question is how do you add friction into

0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:05.120
<v Speaker 5>getting into Instagram or your apps, or turning on Netflix

0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 5>or whatever it might be that's hurting you. How do

0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.759
<v Speaker 5>you how can you slow down that process? So on

0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:13.800
<v Speaker 5>cell phones, and I realized it's ironic to tell people

0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:16.520
<v Speaker 5>to download an app so they can use other apps less.

0:45:16.640 --> 0:45:18.840
<v Speaker 5>There's a great app that's helped a lot of people.

0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:21.600
<v Speaker 5>It's called clear Space, and what it does is you

0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:25.799
<v Speaker 5>pick the apps that you want to limit. Let's say

0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:30.280
<v Speaker 5>you pick Twitter. When you go to open Twitter, clear

0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:33.799
<v Speaker 5>space makes you pause, take a breath in, take a

0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:35.799
<v Speaker 5>breath out. Then it asks you, do you actually want

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.200
<v Speaker 5>to use this app? Because a lot of times we

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.840
<v Speaker 5>just pull out our phone like reflexively to check whatever

0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 5>app it is we're addicted to. And then once you

0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:48.600
<v Speaker 5>say yes, I would actually like to check Twitter, it

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:50.359
<v Speaker 5>asks you how long do you actually want to stay

0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:50.760
<v Speaker 5>in Twitter?

0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:52.040
<v Speaker 3>And it gives you options.

0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:54.160
<v Speaker 5>You can you know, you can set up for five minutes,

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:57.920
<v Speaker 5>ten minutes, twenty minutes, so you pick ten minutes. Because

0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:00.960
<v Speaker 5>the problem is we'll often go open Twitter to go, oh,

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:04.200
<v Speaker 5>I need to respond to that direct message, or I

0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:08.759
<v Speaker 5>want to see what Mark Kenyon has tweeted about this

0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:13.959
<v Speaker 5>season's hunting, and then we often just start scrolling into

0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:16.120
<v Speaker 5>all this southern nonsense. In an hour has gone by.

0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:19.120
<v Speaker 5>So by limiting the time, you're forced to kind of

0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:20.839
<v Speaker 5>do what you actually want to do. So I think

0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:26.480
<v Speaker 5>that's a good use for bones. But also, I mean,

0:46:26.520 --> 0:46:30.440
<v Speaker 5>people get like the scarcity loop isn't shopping. One of

0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.040
<v Speaker 5>the reasons people buy so much crap now is because

0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:36.440
<v Speaker 5>it's so easy and fast to buy stuff. So if

0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:39.319
<v Speaker 5>you can even tell yourself, all right, this thing I

0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.960
<v Speaker 5>think I want, I'm going to put it in my cart,

0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:44.320
<v Speaker 5>my online shopping cart, and I'm going to wait seventy

0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:46.000
<v Speaker 5>two hours, I'm going to slow this down.

0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:48.320
<v Speaker 3>You'll buy way less.

0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:50.600
<v Speaker 5>Stuff, like so much less stuff because so much is

0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:52.520
<v Speaker 5>this stuff is just on board. I was online, Oh

0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:55.360
<v Speaker 5>I saw this, Yeah, I'll buy it. You insert a

0:46:55.400 --> 0:46:58.480
<v Speaker 5>little bit of time and friction, purchasing tends to go down.

0:46:58.520 --> 0:47:01.279
<v Speaker 5>And so the question is, with any behavior you have

0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:06.680
<v Speaker 5>that is something you're compulsively doing that's hurting you, how

0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:07.680
<v Speaker 5>can I slow it down?

0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:14.439
<v Speaker 2>So I want to circle back to to I guess

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:16.800
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more of One of the best ways

0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:20.240
<v Speaker 2>to slow things down is to get outside. Is to

0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.680
<v Speaker 2>insert this big pause in normal life, everyday life, by

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.920
<v Speaker 2>experiencing nature, which again I know a lot of people

0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:29.560
<v Speaker 2>that's like a big thing for them to go out

0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:31.920
<v Speaker 2>and do anything right. Getting there twenty minutes. You know,

0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:35.640
<v Speaker 2>three times a week is like a stretch goal. You know,

0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:37.440
<v Speaker 2>asking someone to go out in the back country for

0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:40.880
<v Speaker 2>three days a month or a year is like a

0:47:40.920 --> 0:47:44.120
<v Speaker 2>big deal for some people. For folks listening to this podcast,

0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:45.360
<v Speaker 2>it's not that big of the deal. It's what we

0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:51.040
<v Speaker 2>want to do. But you have recommended something that's even

0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:53.839
<v Speaker 2>beyond that, which I loved when we talked about last time,

0:47:53.880 --> 0:47:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and I've thought about it since and then kind of

0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 2>forgot about. And then when I reread your book recently,

0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:04.960
<v Speaker 2>was reminded of And that's the Massagi idea, this idea

0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:07.440
<v Speaker 2>of pushing you know, we talked earlier about pushing yourself,

0:48:07.440 --> 0:48:09.879
<v Speaker 2>having goals and everything, and is that a good thing

0:48:09.960 --> 0:48:12.640
<v Speaker 2>or can that sometimes get you out of focus of

0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:15.319
<v Speaker 2>why you love something? But there does seem to be

0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:19.239
<v Speaker 2>this benefit to kind of pushing the edges of the possible.

0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:22.960
<v Speaker 2>And I'm curious over the last five years or so

0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.360
<v Speaker 2>since you I think I think you can be widely

0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:31.000
<v Speaker 2>credited with popularizing that idea. It's really caught on. Where's

0:48:31.040 --> 0:48:33.720
<v Speaker 2>your head on this? I guess for people who aren't familiar,

0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:36.680
<v Speaker 2>what is it? Number two? Where are you now? Five

0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:39.880
<v Speaker 2>years into this as it's grown, and as people have

0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:42.319
<v Speaker 2>been increasingly coming to you to talk about this, and

0:48:42.360 --> 0:48:45.680
<v Speaker 2>you've been talking about it, and I guess where what

0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.919
<v Speaker 2>are your best practices now, five years after you first

0:48:48.920 --> 0:48:51.640
<v Speaker 2>brought this idea out to the world, give us that.

0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:52.919
<v Speaker 3>I guess yeah.

0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:56.719
<v Speaker 5>So a masogi easiest way to think about it is

0:48:56.760 --> 0:49:01.120
<v Speaker 5>it a big epic challenge that you take on once

0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:04.200
<v Speaker 5>a year for the sake of growth. There's two rules.

0:49:05.040 --> 0:49:08.759
<v Speaker 5>Make it really hard, don't die. So the second rule,

0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:10.640
<v Speaker 5>it is kind of tongue in cheek, just be safe.

0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:12.440
<v Speaker 5>But the first rule we define by saying you should

0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:14.759
<v Speaker 5>have a fifty to fifty shot of accomplishing whatever your

0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:18.520
<v Speaker 5>masogi task is. So the fifty to fifty shot that

0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:24.520
<v Speaker 5>means two things. One is that everyone's fifty to fifty

0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:25.280
<v Speaker 5>is going to be different.

0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:28.640
<v Speaker 5>Let's say that my masogi is I'm going to run

0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:31.279
<v Speaker 5>fifty miles. Well, the lady down the street from me,

0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:35.120
<v Speaker 5>who's you know, sixty seven years old, first might be

0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:37.920
<v Speaker 5>to run ten miles. But we're still going to do

0:49:38.000 --> 0:49:40.800
<v Speaker 5>something that we think we only have a fifty percent

0:49:40.880 --> 0:49:44.880
<v Speaker 5>shot of doing. And the fifty percent shot part second

0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:48.560
<v Speaker 5>part of this is that it's really important because it

0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:52.080
<v Speaker 5>means you have a really high chance of failure. And today,

0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:55.080
<v Speaker 5>when we take on challenges, we often pick things that

0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:58.800
<v Speaker 5>are well within the range of possibilities, like ninety percent.

0:49:58.840 --> 0:50:02.880
<v Speaker 5>Sure we're going to acomplish this thing. But the problem

0:50:02.960 --> 0:50:06.280
<v Speaker 5>is is we don't ever get pushed out to our edge.

0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.719
<v Speaker 5>So whether you actually accomplish this thing or not is irrelevant.

0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:14.400
<v Speaker 5>The point is that you want to meet this point

0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:17.600
<v Speaker 5>where you think you are going to fail this. You're like,

0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:20.520
<v Speaker 5>I'm done, I can't go any further. But if you

0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:24.080
<v Speaker 5>can just push a little bit past that, just keep pushing,

0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:28.520
<v Speaker 5>you get this second moment where you realize, well, wait

0:50:28.560 --> 0:50:31.520
<v Speaker 5>a minute, I'm past what I thought was my limit

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:35.319
<v Speaker 5>back there. So I've sold myself short here, and then

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:39.040
<v Speaker 5>the important question becomes where else in my life could

0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:42.280
<v Speaker 5>I be selling myself short? So I'm a firm believer

0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:46.520
<v Speaker 5>that humans don't learn through sitting around thinking all the time.

0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:47.239
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:50.520
<v Speaker 5>We can intellectually understand a lot of concepts in our brain,

0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:52.600
<v Speaker 5>but they don't actually stick until we get out in

0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:56.160
<v Speaker 5>the world and we actually experience them. And the massogi

0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:59.960
<v Speaker 5>teaches you through experience, you're probably a lot more capable

0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:05.440
<v Speaker 5>then you think, and that changes your worldview afterwards. So

0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:08.279
<v Speaker 5>then to follow up on the second part of your

0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:12.799
<v Speaker 5>question is how has my thinking evolved on this? Yeah,

0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:15.040
<v Speaker 5>I think a couple things. I think when I first

0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.400
<v Speaker 5>wrote about it, like the book really focused on physical things.

0:51:20.040 --> 0:51:25.759
<v Speaker 5>I don't think masogis always have to be physical. So

0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:28.680
<v Speaker 5>let's say you took a I don't know someone who's

0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:32.120
<v Speaker 5>into ultra ultra marathon running right, A tendency for that

0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:35.120
<v Speaker 5>person would would be, Okay, I'm gonna my masogi is

0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:37.360
<v Speaker 5>a fifty miler. Oh, I completed that. Now I'm going

0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:40.000
<v Speaker 5>to do one hundred miles. Completed that, Now I'm going

0:51:40.080 --> 0:51:41.400
<v Speaker 5>to do two hundred miles. And it just becomes this

0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:43.200
<v Speaker 5>arms race. It's like you kind of know you're going

0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:45.239
<v Speaker 5>to do it, and it sounds to me like you're

0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:47.560
<v Speaker 5>actually pretty good at running. That's a strong spot for you.

0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:52.400
<v Speaker 5>So for me, what if that person your masogis you

0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:55.040
<v Speaker 5>have to go do a meditation retreat for twenty four

0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:58.359
<v Speaker 5>hours because a lot of times these endurance types they

0:51:58.400 --> 0:52:01.120
<v Speaker 5>just can't sit still. I always got to be moving.

0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:04.120
<v Speaker 5>So it's like the question becomes what is the thing

0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.920
<v Speaker 5>that really scares me that I'm not doing and how

0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:12.440
<v Speaker 5>can I try that, because I'll tend to peel away

0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:17.279
<v Speaker 5>new layers of the onion that you haven't explored. And again,

0:52:17.320 --> 0:52:19.160
<v Speaker 5>I mean, this could really be anything. I was given

0:52:19.160 --> 0:52:22.960
<v Speaker 5>a talk one time and I talked about this masogi

0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:24.600
<v Speaker 5>idea of my talk, and this woman came up to

0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:26.319
<v Speaker 5>me afterwards and she said, hey, I read your book

0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:27.280
<v Speaker 5>and I did a masogi.

0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:29.320
<v Speaker 3>I was like, oh, great, what was it?

0:52:29.440 --> 0:52:29.480
<v Speaker 4>Was?

0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:31.680
<v Speaker 3>My masogi? I was trying sushi.

0:52:32.600 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 5>I was like, really, tell me about that, you know,

0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:39.960
<v Speaker 5>and she goes all my life I had all like

0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:44.560
<v Speaker 5>a fear of different foods, especially sushi, just like, oh,

0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:47.440
<v Speaker 5>I can't do that. I'm just you know, because I

0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:51.719
<v Speaker 5>tried it, because I didn't love it, but also didn't

0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:51.960
<v Speaker 5>hate it.

0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:52.760
<v Speaker 3>It was totally fine.

0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:57.319
<v Speaker 5>And it made me realize that I had all these

0:52:57.440 --> 0:53:01.600
<v Speaker 5>irrational fears that I'd never tested, and that opened the

0:53:01.640 --> 0:53:04.360
<v Speaker 5>door for me to start questioning, Okay, what are this

0:53:04.520 --> 0:53:05.879
<v Speaker 5>other laundry list of heres?

0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:06.720
<v Speaker 3>Is this rational?

0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:09.840
<v Speaker 5>Is this? We're trying and experiencing and seeing what I think,

0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:12.880
<v Speaker 5>and that is what we're after that big opening of

0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:15.719
<v Speaker 5>the door of our thoughts, how we see ourselves how

0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:16.600
<v Speaker 5>we think about the world.

0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:17.960
<v Speaker 3>That's really what we're going for.

0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:35.000
<v Speaker 2>What's been the most impactful masogi you've experienced yourself.

0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:38.040
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that's a good question.

0:53:38.400 --> 0:53:42.040
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I think probably my Arctic trip qualifies as

0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:47.399
<v Speaker 5>one that was really I hadn't been hunting. I'd never

0:53:47.480 --> 0:53:52.520
<v Speaker 5>killed an animal with a weapon besides my Nissan Ultimate

0:53:52.520 --> 0:53:57.600
<v Speaker 5>in high school in an unfortunate accident, and that really

0:53:57.640 --> 0:53:59.400
<v Speaker 5>sort of changed my thinking around the food system. I

0:53:59.440 --> 0:54:03.040
<v Speaker 5>think that happens for a lot of hunters, so that

0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:05.320
<v Speaker 5>one had a lot of these moments that just changed

0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:10.320
<v Speaker 5>my thinking about things and affected my behavior moving forward.

0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:14.200
<v Speaker 5>And I think too, probably more recently, as that hike

0:54:14.280 --> 0:54:15.879
<v Speaker 5>I just did. I mean, I didn't enter it thinking

0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:18.600
<v Speaker 5>it was a masogi, But the reality is is probably

0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.000
<v Speaker 5>wasn't masogi. Because I didn't, I probably had a ten

0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:23.160
<v Speaker 5>percent chance of finishing it. I won't tell you if

0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:25.520
<v Speaker 5>I finished it or not. You can learn that in

0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:27.440
<v Speaker 5>the book when it comes out, and whoever the hell

0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:31.600
<v Speaker 5>knows how long. But I think it changed a lot

0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:35.600
<v Speaker 5>of my thinking around what I was capable of, and

0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:40.640
<v Speaker 5>also how we should think about living in the modern world,

0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:43.360
<v Speaker 5>and also friendship. I did it with a friend and

0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:45.680
<v Speaker 5>I've always been one of those people who, you know,

0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:49.320
<v Speaker 5>I like people, but only in smallish and fleeting clusters

0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:52.680
<v Speaker 5>more or less. And that was like, you know what, dude, Like,

0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.600
<v Speaker 5>maybe you need to go go out and hang out

0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:57.560
<v Speaker 5>with people more time. Like you really got a lot

0:54:57.560 --> 0:54:59.440
<v Speaker 5>out of this, and I think that just changed my

0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:02.600
<v Speaker 5>perspetition perception about some of the social stuff in my life.

0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Have you figured out how to harness or how do

0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:12.000
<v Speaker 2>you take something like that? How do you have an experience?

0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:14.000
<v Speaker 2>And for so many of us, we have these things,

0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:19.279
<v Speaker 2>We have these transcendent experiences, oftentimes in wild and then

0:55:19.360 --> 0:55:22.719
<v Speaker 2>wild places right awe is something that seems to be

0:55:22.840 --> 0:55:25.960
<v Speaker 2>really important to humans. It's something that comes in spades

0:55:26.000 --> 0:55:29.239
<v Speaker 2>in the wild world. It often, you know, doing hard

0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:33.320
<v Speaker 2>things often inspires like you just said, reflection and self

0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:36.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of understanding. How do you carry that forward? Like,

0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:38.799
<v Speaker 2>how do you take that and not just let it

0:55:38.800 --> 0:55:41.040
<v Speaker 2>slip away over the next week or two, but instead

0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:46.080
<v Speaker 2>somehow bottle that up and use it for the rest

0:55:46.160 --> 0:55:47.920
<v Speaker 2>of your life. Have you figured that out? Do you

0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:48.520
<v Speaker 2>have any idea?

0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:52.600
<v Speaker 5>That's the great question. I mean, Joseph Campbell wrote about this.

0:55:52.719 --> 0:55:54.239
<v Speaker 5>You had a quote, It's like you get up to

0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:58.040
<v Speaker 5>a height and then your question becomes do I stay

0:55:58.040 --> 0:56:01.560
<v Speaker 5>with that or do I return and back to normal life.

0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:05.160
<v Speaker 5>So in the Hero's Journey, there's typically I assume people

0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:07.320
<v Speaker 5>are somewhat familiar with the Hero's Journey, but it's basically

0:56:08.280 --> 0:56:11.960
<v Speaker 5>someone goes out into this really trying environment, encounters these

0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:15.759
<v Speaker 5>challenges like a big adventure, and it fundamentally changes their

0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:18.759
<v Speaker 5>self concept and they have these you know, peak experiences,

0:56:19.480 --> 0:56:21.919
<v Speaker 5>and there's always there's two paths. It's like the hero

0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:26.160
<v Speaker 5>either stays out in this wild world or they have

0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:30.640
<v Speaker 5>to return back to their normal life and figure out, Okay,

0:56:30.800 --> 0:56:33.200
<v Speaker 5>how do I stay with this thing? And it's not easy,

0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:35.840
<v Speaker 5>and I think most of us are going to be

0:56:35.880 --> 0:56:36.640
<v Speaker 5>returning back.

0:56:36.520 --> 0:56:40.960
<v Speaker 3>To the normal world. So for me, I think it's.

0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:45.279
<v Speaker 5>I think when you first get back from something, whether

0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:47.120
<v Speaker 5>it's like a big hunt or whatever it might be,

0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:52.840
<v Speaker 5>that changes you. The lessons and the feelings are really

0:56:52.920 --> 0:56:55.680
<v Speaker 5>kind of intense, but they fade over time naturally the

0:56:55.719 --> 0:57:00.480
<v Speaker 5>longer you stay in normal life. And for me, it's

0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:03.879
<v Speaker 5>always trying to bring to mind what did I learn

0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:06.880
<v Speaker 5>on that, and then making sure I have new things

0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:09.759
<v Speaker 5>on the horizon, you know, It's like you can re

0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:11.400
<v Speaker 5>up that every year if you go out and you

0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:15.360
<v Speaker 5>do something interesting that changes you and finding new things

0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 5>to do. I think the big takeaway is how can

0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:25.640
<v Speaker 5>I add adventure back into my life, both big and small?

0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:29.560
<v Speaker 5>What am I doing yearly? But what am I doing weekly?

0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:32.600
<v Speaker 5>You know, there's a lot of ways to spend a weekend.

0:57:33.600 --> 0:57:35.280
<v Speaker 5>You can hang around and watch Netflix, so you can

0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:38.919
<v Speaker 5>be like, hey, family, get in the truck. I saw

0:57:38.960 --> 0:57:42.720
<v Speaker 5>this place on the map. Looks kind of interesting. I

0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:44.680
<v Speaker 5>don't know anything about it, but that's the point.

0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:45.160
<v Speaker 3>Let's go.

0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:50.560
<v Speaker 5>And so it's having to constantly do something. I think

0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:52.680
<v Speaker 5>it's easy in modern life to get kind of caught

0:57:52.680 --> 0:57:55.040
<v Speaker 5>in the exact same routine and people start to have

0:57:55.120 --> 0:58:00.680
<v Speaker 5>these kind of feelings of restlessness discontent. Okay, what's the point.

0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:05.800
<v Speaker 5>But you can sort of break that up by getting

0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:08.440
<v Speaker 5>out of your routine and doing something new and interesting

0:58:08.480 --> 0:58:12.960
<v Speaker 5>and adventurous and continuing that over time. That's helped me anyways.

0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, there's this guy's names I I of

0:58:17.400 --> 0:58:19.640
<v Speaker 2>get his last name wrong, Jesse Eisler. I think or

0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Ike's like, you know, you know, Jesse. He's all over

0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:24.600
<v Speaker 2>the place and he has this rule that he got

0:58:24.600 --> 0:58:28.120
<v Speaker 2>from some friend of his, where he basically says, I'm

0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:30.080
<v Speaker 2>going to get the specifics run. But I think every

0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:33.439
<v Speaker 2>single year he does one thing basically a masogi every year,

0:58:33.520 --> 0:58:35.960
<v Speaker 2>like one thing that he never thought would be possible,

0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:40.600
<v Speaker 2>some crazy, big adventure of some kind. And then once

0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:44.360
<v Speaker 2>every other month he tries to do something that he

0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.400
<v Speaker 2>never would have thought he would do, just like something

0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:50.040
<v Speaker 2>out of the ordinary, something outside of his comfort zone.

0:58:50.320 --> 0:58:52.840
<v Speaker 2>And basically what the idea is like, Hey, if you

0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:54.520
<v Speaker 2>live a life like that where once every year you

0:58:54.600 --> 0:58:57.720
<v Speaker 2>do some really big adventure and then every other month

0:58:57.760 --> 0:59:00.360
<v Speaker 2>you're doing something outside of your comfort zone, one of

0:59:00.400 --> 0:59:02.640
<v Speaker 2>those things will stand out. You know, when we go

0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:04.640
<v Speaker 2>outside of the normal, those are the memories that stick

0:59:04.680 --> 0:59:08.160
<v Speaker 2>with us. Those are the experiences that form a life.

0:59:08.600 --> 0:59:11.360
<v Speaker 2>It's typically not just sitting and watching Netflix. Right, So

0:59:11.400 --> 0:59:14.720
<v Speaker 2>if you do that, you build a very full, rich life,

0:59:15.280 --> 0:59:17.360
<v Speaker 2>which I think is which I think falls right in

0:59:17.360 --> 0:59:19.800
<v Speaker 2>line with a lot of what you're saying here now

0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:24.760
<v Speaker 2>with that goal, I guess out there, I've recognized one

0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:27.120
<v Speaker 2>challenge in my own life in trying to live this way,

0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:31.000
<v Speaker 2>which is my daily life. Like you, in many ways

0:59:31.000 --> 0:59:33.840
<v Speaker 2>of sitting in a computer and writing right taping on

0:59:33.840 --> 0:59:36.960
<v Speaker 2>the keyboard, or recording podcasts or doing stuff in an office,

0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:39.520
<v Speaker 2>which increasingly more and more of us are. So we're

0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:42.760
<v Speaker 2>very sedentary for large parts of our lives. And then

0:59:42.800 --> 0:59:45.200
<v Speaker 2>ever once in a while, whether it be every weekend

0:59:45.280 --> 0:59:47.800
<v Speaker 2>doing a smaller thing, or a handful times a year

0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:49.920
<v Speaker 2>doing some big back country trip like ILL have. Like

0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:52.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'm lucky I get to do more than most.

0:59:52.640 --> 0:59:54.560
<v Speaker 2>I might have three or four or five or six

0:59:54.600 --> 0:59:59.200
<v Speaker 2>like big, very intense backpacking trips or big hunts or

0:59:59.200 --> 1:00:01.240
<v Speaker 2>something like that where you're carrying a lot of weight

1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and you're doing really strenuous things. It's it's intense. So

1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:07.680
<v Speaker 2>my life goes from like very sedentary to very intense.

1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:13.320
<v Speaker 2>And I've gotten very good at having a consistent cardio base,

1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:17.040
<v Speaker 2>but not as well with my strength base for that,

1:00:17.600 --> 1:00:21.560
<v Speaker 2>and I have had, you know, injuries because of that.

1:00:21.600 --> 1:00:24.160
<v Speaker 2>I have had problems where I've jumped from you know, thinking, yeah,

1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm in pretty good shape. I run a ton and

1:00:25.600 --> 1:00:26.680
<v Speaker 2>do a lot of this stuff, and I go and

1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:29.160
<v Speaker 2>do this big, intense thing and I'm not quite ready

1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:34.080
<v Speaker 2>for that. You have popularized another idea that I think

1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.400
<v Speaker 2>addresses this for a lot of people, which is the

1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:39.360
<v Speaker 2>very simple but seemingly powerful idea of walking with weight.

1:00:39.920 --> 1:00:43.200
<v Speaker 2>It seems like that might be a solution to what

1:00:43.320 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 2>many people today, especially hunters and anglers, are dealing with,

1:00:46.120 --> 1:00:48.480
<v Speaker 2>and that they're probably working some kind of office job,

1:00:49.600 --> 1:00:51.800
<v Speaker 2>relatively sedentary, and then all of a sudden they want

1:00:51.800 --> 1:00:53.520
<v Speaker 2>to go out for their weekend, or they're once a

1:00:53.560 --> 1:00:57.280
<v Speaker 2>month or once a year big adventure hunting or fishing,

1:00:57.360 --> 1:01:02.320
<v Speaker 2>going somewhere and maybe aren't quite ready for Tell me

1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:06.040
<v Speaker 2>about how walking with weight might be a solution for

1:01:06.120 --> 1:01:08.720
<v Speaker 2>that kind of lifestyle. Why that's so powerful?

1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:13.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think the short answer and I'll say, in

1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:17.240
<v Speaker 5>the comfort crisis, I use the word rocking. It's basically

1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:19.800
<v Speaker 5>walking with a weighted backpack. I've started to shift to

1:01:19.840 --> 1:01:21.960
<v Speaker 5>the term walking with weight because when I would tell

1:01:22.760 --> 1:01:25.680
<v Speaker 5>women about rocking and that they should do it, rocking

1:01:25.720 --> 1:01:27.640
<v Speaker 5>is a military term, so when they'd google it, they'd

1:01:27.640 --> 1:01:30.920
<v Speaker 5>see these special forces dudes with these giant backpacks and go, yeah.

1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:31.600
<v Speaker 3>That is not for me.

1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:37.560
<v Speaker 5>But the reality is is that humans are built to

1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:41.400
<v Speaker 5>carry weight over distance. We are the only mammal that

1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:45.440
<v Speaker 5>can do that. We are uniquely good at carrying weight

1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:48.200
<v Speaker 5>for distance, and it totally shaped us into who we

1:01:48.240 --> 1:01:50.960
<v Speaker 5>are today, allowed us to take over the world, but

1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:54.040
<v Speaker 5>we often don't do it anymore. And I think the

1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:59.560
<v Speaker 5>reason it's so particularly good for backcountry hunters and anglers

1:01:59.760 --> 1:02:06.080
<v Speaker 5>is you're building strength while also getting cardio. So if

1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:09.800
<v Speaker 5>you are too skinny, it'll help put some muscle on

1:02:09.880 --> 1:02:12.920
<v Speaker 5>your fame. If you're too if you have too much fat,

1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:15.439
<v Speaker 5>you have too much muscle, it'll lean you out because

1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:17.920
<v Speaker 5>you actually don't want too much muscle when you're covering

1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:18.680
<v Speaker 5>a lot of ground.

1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:20.080
<v Speaker 3>Because it's just extra weight you have to carry.

1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:23.640
<v Speaker 5>So it's kind of this dual activity that hits both

1:02:23.680 --> 1:02:28.160
<v Speaker 5>strength and cardio at the same time. And of course

1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:30.880
<v Speaker 5>it's very applicable to the pack out right. That is

1:02:30.960 --> 1:02:32.640
<v Speaker 5>exactly what you're doing when you have to pack out

1:02:33.000 --> 1:02:36.520
<v Speaker 5>an animal. And I think too, it's nice because it's

1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:40.960
<v Speaker 5>very approachable. A lot of people run, it's great. A

1:02:41.000 --> 1:02:44.040
<v Speaker 5>lot of people also get injured by running. So the

1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:46.480
<v Speaker 5>data on this is everywhere, but anywhere from I think

1:02:46.520 --> 1:02:49.560
<v Speaker 5>twenty to I think seventy five percent of runners get

1:02:49.560 --> 1:02:52.920
<v Speaker 5>injured every single year. It's a lot of people, a

1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:56.760
<v Speaker 5>lot of injuries but when you walk with weight, the

1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:01.040
<v Speaker 5>injury rate is basically like that of walking, rises as

1:03:01.080 --> 1:03:03.960
<v Speaker 5>you add more weight. But I think if you're walking

1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:08.280
<v Speaker 5>with anywhere from ten to say, thirty percent of your

1:03:08.280 --> 1:03:10.640
<v Speaker 5>body weight, like you're probably not going to get injured,

1:03:10.760 --> 1:03:13.040
<v Speaker 5>and you're going to build a really good base of

1:03:13.120 --> 1:03:16.000
<v Speaker 5>strength that's going to apply to the mountains and the

1:03:16.040 --> 1:03:20.360
<v Speaker 5>streams wherever you might be. That's gonna make you a

1:03:20.360 --> 1:03:24.320
<v Speaker 5>lot more physically prepared for the activities of backcentry hunting.

1:03:25.440 --> 1:03:32.680
<v Speaker 2>So one of the pushbacks I've internally had to it

1:03:32.720 --> 1:03:35.920
<v Speaker 2>has been like an ROI on my time. If I

1:03:35.920 --> 1:03:37.960
<v Speaker 2>have an hour that I can devote to some kind

1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of exercise, I could run. I don't know, in an hour,

1:03:41.840 --> 1:03:43.919
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to run five miles or something like that.

1:03:44.200 --> 1:03:46.040
<v Speaker 2>I feel like that I'm going to get a really

1:03:46.080 --> 1:03:48.000
<v Speaker 2>good workout and fire you know, five miles in or

1:03:48.040 --> 1:03:50.320
<v Speaker 2>six miles in or whatever it is in that hour

1:03:50.440 --> 1:03:52.440
<v Speaker 2>that feels like something. I'll really feel it afterwards, I'll

1:03:52.440 --> 1:03:55.600
<v Speaker 2>work up a good sweat, et cetera. But with an

1:03:55.640 --> 1:03:58.640
<v Speaker 2>hour hike, you know, I'm only going to go two

1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:00.320
<v Speaker 2>and a half miles or three miles or something. It

1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:04.040
<v Speaker 2>doesn't seem like I'm going as far, it doesn't seem

1:04:04.080 --> 1:04:09.760
<v Speaker 2>as high output. Maybe do you have a sense in

1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:12.040
<v Speaker 2>your new book, I know you've charted out some of this.

1:04:12.800 --> 1:04:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Could you speak to you know, how does like a

1:04:15.840 --> 1:04:19.400
<v Speaker 2>run stack up to a ruck or walking with weight

1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:21.240
<v Speaker 2>and how much weight do we need to get the

1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:24.440
<v Speaker 2>same ROI out of that hour if we're walking with

1:04:24.480 --> 1:04:26.960
<v Speaker 2>weight versus going for a trail run or something. Can

1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:29.440
<v Speaker 2>you is there some way to kind of compare apples

1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:29.880
<v Speaker 2>to oranges?

1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:30.160
<v Speaker 4>There?

1:04:30.600 --> 1:04:33.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so the way you would compare it if you

1:04:33.720 --> 1:04:36.440
<v Speaker 5>just want to think about it as energy burned i e.

1:04:36.720 --> 1:04:37.320
<v Speaker 3>Calories.

1:04:37.800 --> 1:04:39.920
<v Speaker 5>So when you add weight to your walk, you start

1:04:39.920 --> 1:04:43.280
<v Speaker 5>to burn anywhere from twenty to as much as say,

1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:47.560
<v Speaker 5>two times more calories per mile when you add weight.

1:04:47.640 --> 1:04:49.560
<v Speaker 5>Out of course, that number change is based on the

1:04:49.560 --> 1:04:53.880
<v Speaker 5>amount of weight you have, So effectively, the more weight

1:04:54.040 --> 1:04:56.440
<v Speaker 5>that you add, and I do tell people keep it

1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:59.840
<v Speaker 5>under thirty percent of your body weight. That's usually kind

1:04:59.840 --> 1:05:02.760
<v Speaker 5>of the cut off point where some bad things can

1:05:02.840 --> 1:05:05.800
<v Speaker 5>start to happen if you go over thirty percent. But

1:05:05.880 --> 1:05:09.320
<v Speaker 5>you're not going to be burning that much less calories

1:05:09.600 --> 1:05:12.400
<v Speaker 5>by walking with weight. And the important thing is too

1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:14.520
<v Speaker 5>you've just told me, Yeah, my endurance is good, but

1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:17.040
<v Speaker 5>I'm sucky at strength. It's like, okay, well, so you're

1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:19.480
<v Speaker 5>gonna go do more endurance and do less strength work,

1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:22.800
<v Speaker 5>like if you want to balance this out. So I

1:05:22.800 --> 1:05:25.479
<v Speaker 5>would never tell people, hey, don't ever run, no matter

1:05:25.480 --> 1:05:28.640
<v Speaker 5>who you are, if you're a hunter, no matter you know,

1:05:28.920 --> 1:05:31.800
<v Speaker 5>whatever thing you're into. But I do think adding some

1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:36.160
<v Speaker 5>walking with weight in can't help round out a lot

1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:41.040
<v Speaker 5>of your fitness. I said, caring weight is a fundamental

1:05:41.120 --> 1:05:44.280
<v Speaker 5>human movement pattern that we don't do now, and once

1:05:44.320 --> 1:05:46.600
<v Speaker 5>we start to do it, it tends to fix a

1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:50.760
<v Speaker 5>lot of the issues that modern people tend to have

1:05:50.880 --> 1:05:55.760
<v Speaker 5>just because of desk work. Not to mention, you can

1:05:55.840 --> 1:05:59.360
<v Speaker 5>just throw in a backpack whenever you're doing everyday stuff

1:06:00.600 --> 1:06:02.040
<v Speaker 5>if you have to, Like if I have to take

1:06:02.040 --> 1:06:04.800
<v Speaker 5>my dogs for a walk, I'm going to toss on

1:06:04.840 --> 1:06:07.120
<v Speaker 5>a backpack and throw out a thirty pound backpack and

1:06:07.320 --> 1:06:10.160
<v Speaker 5>take them for a walk. So now I've taken that

1:06:10.240 --> 1:06:13.800
<v Speaker 5>walk from something pretty low level relaxing to now it's

1:06:13.800 --> 1:06:16.760
<v Speaker 5>actually kind of in the workout zone. I would have

1:06:16.800 --> 1:06:20.320
<v Speaker 5>to walk my dogs no matter what. So if I

1:06:20.400 --> 1:06:22.160
<v Speaker 5>just toss on that pack, now I'm getting a lot

1:06:22.360 --> 1:06:24.200
<v Speaker 5>more out of it. Or if you take a nightly

1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:28.320
<v Speaker 5>walk with your wife. My friend John Deloney, who also

1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:31.360
<v Speaker 5>has a pot podcast, does this. He was like, you know,

1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:33.760
<v Speaker 5>my wife and I would always have these great conversations

1:06:33.760 --> 1:06:36.160
<v Speaker 5>on our walks, but I always felt like I was

1:06:36.200 --> 1:06:39.200
<v Speaker 5>taking time away from my workouts. You know, He's like, man,

1:06:39.240 --> 1:06:41.200
<v Speaker 5>I just start throwing on a pack and now I'm like, Okay,

1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:44.880
<v Speaker 5>I'm solid. I'm getting some work from this. And I

1:06:44.880 --> 1:06:48.960
<v Speaker 5>would also say probably, you know, I'm not one of

1:06:48.960 --> 1:06:50.280
<v Speaker 5>those people who's going to sit here and tell you

1:06:50.320 --> 1:06:53.720
<v Speaker 5>that rocking walking with weight is the only thing you

1:06:53.720 --> 1:06:55.640
<v Speaker 5>should do. I don't believe that at all. Humans are

1:06:55.680 --> 1:06:58.600
<v Speaker 5>extremely versatile. I think you should run. I think you

1:06:58.600 --> 1:07:00.200
<v Speaker 5>should rock. I think you should.

1:07:00.240 --> 1:07:01.640
<v Speaker 3>Lift things, carry things.

1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:04.240
<v Speaker 5>I think you should basically do everything because that's what

1:07:04.280 --> 1:07:08.000
<v Speaker 5>the mountains ultimately demand of you. You're having to hike

1:07:08.080 --> 1:07:13.120
<v Speaker 5>some sketchy terrain, you often have a pack on. You're

1:07:13.160 --> 1:07:15.960
<v Speaker 5>taxing your cardio system, you're taxing your strength system. You're

1:07:15.960 --> 1:07:17.800
<v Speaker 5>going to have to pick up some stuff and carry it.

1:07:17.880 --> 1:07:19.920
<v Speaker 5>So you want to be doing everything if the mountains

1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:21.760
<v Speaker 5>are demanding everything from you.

1:07:22.200 --> 1:07:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So for people specifically looking to train for a

1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:31.120
<v Speaker 2>backcountry hunt. You know, walking with weight is the prescription

1:07:31.280 --> 1:07:33.120
<v Speaker 2>for a lot of people. Right. There's a lot of different,

1:07:33.600 --> 1:07:35.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, training plans that have been built out there.

1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:39.440
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of best practices that people expert hunters

1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:44.400
<v Speaker 2>have have pitched and talked about and gyms promote. But

1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't think any of these people have written an

1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:50.640
<v Speaker 2>entire book all about the science and research behind walking

1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:55.160
<v Speaker 2>with weight. You have which is coming out soon for

1:07:55.280 --> 1:07:59.280
<v Speaker 2>somebody who is who is not just rucking to establish

1:07:59.320 --> 1:08:03.240
<v Speaker 2>a fitness but is specifically walking with weight to train

1:08:03.360 --> 1:08:06.880
<v Speaker 2>for a backcountry elk hunting trip or mule deer trip

1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:11.040
<v Speaker 2>or caribou hunting trip or something like that. Excuse me,

1:08:11.720 --> 1:08:15.160
<v Speaker 2>what is your what's your what are your best practices

1:08:15.400 --> 1:08:18.280
<v Speaker 2>or recommended you know, ways to build out a plan

1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:20.519
<v Speaker 2>to actually practice for that. So that's like, hey, I

1:08:20.560 --> 1:08:22.360
<v Speaker 2>need to be ready to pack out one hundred pounds

1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:24.560
<v Speaker 2>and it might be ten miles over and over or

1:08:24.600 --> 1:08:28.480
<v Speaker 2>whatever might be. You've experienced it, what would you prescribe

1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:30.320
<v Speaker 2>for that person in that situation.

1:08:31.479 --> 1:08:36.320
<v Speaker 5>It's a great question. My first word is if a

1:08:36.320 --> 1:08:41.080
<v Speaker 5>person had never rucked before, never walked with weight thrown

1:08:41.439 --> 1:08:44.519
<v Speaker 5>weight in their pack is to start lighter than you think.

1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:47.920
<v Speaker 5>Especially with guys, we tend to just low the thing

1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:50.120
<v Speaker 5>up and then we get out We're like, this sucks,

1:08:50.240 --> 1:08:53.240
<v Speaker 5>I hate this, my shoulders hurt, I'm never doing this again,

1:08:53.320 --> 1:08:55.479
<v Speaker 5>and then we don't ever do it again. Yeah, So

1:08:55.520 --> 1:09:00.559
<v Speaker 5>I tell people to on ramp slowly, start with say pounds,

1:09:01.800 --> 1:09:04.200
<v Speaker 5>work your way up from there, and then find a

1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:09.240
<v Speaker 5>weight eventually through trial and air that feels uncomfortable and

1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:12.920
<v Speaker 5>challenging but also not soul crushing. You want to find

1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:14.360
<v Speaker 5>a weight where you feel like you could just go

1:09:14.400 --> 1:09:17.720
<v Speaker 5>for miles and miles and miles. Yes, it's hard, but

1:09:18.360 --> 1:09:20.120
<v Speaker 5>you're gonna be able to accomplish it. So for me,

1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:24.960
<v Speaker 5>like my go to is thirty pounds thirty five about

1:09:25.760 --> 1:09:30.599
<v Speaker 5>and I feel like you can also push that every

1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:35.439
<v Speaker 5>now and then, So sometimes I'll do say sixty something,

1:09:35.479 --> 1:09:37.040
<v Speaker 5>because I know, okay, I might have to have a

1:09:37.080 --> 1:09:40.559
<v Speaker 5>really heavy pack out if you just structure this across

1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:44.599
<v Speaker 5>a week, if I was leading into a hunt season,

1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:50.240
<v Speaker 5>I would probably want to do three days of rucking

1:09:50.280 --> 1:09:54.400
<v Speaker 5>each week per se. I don't know an hour each time.

1:09:54.439 --> 1:09:57.280
<v Speaker 5>And granted this goes back to the dog walking thing.

1:09:57.280 --> 1:09:58.920
<v Speaker 5>It's like I have to walk my dogs anyway. I'm

1:09:58.920 --> 1:10:01.000
<v Speaker 5>just throw my damn pack on. It's not even really lot.

1:10:01.120 --> 1:10:04.479
<v Speaker 5>I've done an extra workout. Do three days of rocking

1:10:04.520 --> 1:10:06.080
<v Speaker 5>with week. You might want one day where you're a

1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:08.080
<v Speaker 5>little bit heavier to kind of get used to those

1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:12.120
<v Speaker 5>heavier loads. Don't go above a thirtyier body weight. I

1:10:12.160 --> 1:10:14.080
<v Speaker 5>don't think it's really worth it. You're not going to

1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:18.000
<v Speaker 5>gain anymore when you go do that much heavier pack out.

1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:24.240
<v Speaker 5>You'll help avoid injuries. Three days of rucking do say

1:10:24.280 --> 1:10:26.000
<v Speaker 5>one day. If it were me, I would maybe do

1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:30.000
<v Speaker 5>one day of long slow run, like really slow. You'd

1:10:30.000 --> 1:10:31.920
<v Speaker 5>also do a bike something like that, and then I

1:10:31.960 --> 1:10:34.000
<v Speaker 5>would want to do two days of strength training a week,

1:10:34.960 --> 1:10:37.560
<v Speaker 5>really focusing on lower body because in the mountains the

1:10:37.640 --> 1:10:39.400
<v Speaker 5>legs feed the wolf. The mountains don't give a shit

1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:42.360
<v Speaker 5>how big your biceps are. They really don't. So you

1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:44.840
<v Speaker 5>want to do some heavy squats. You definitely want to

1:10:44.840 --> 1:10:48.760
<v Speaker 5>be doing a lot of weighted carries like farmers walks,

1:10:50.200 --> 1:10:52.160
<v Speaker 5>suitcase carries, things like that.

1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:58.280
<v Speaker 3>Upper body stuff that uses a lot of your body.

1:10:58.360 --> 1:11:01.360
<v Speaker 5>So for example, a bench press, you're just lying on

1:11:01.400 --> 1:11:03.920
<v Speaker 5>this thing you don't have to engage your core as much.

1:11:03.920 --> 1:11:05.479
<v Speaker 5>You just sort of press, but a push up like

1:11:05.479 --> 1:11:08.160
<v Speaker 5>you actually have to engage your core, and it's more

1:11:08.200 --> 1:11:10.800
<v Speaker 5>realistic for like, oh I fell on the mountains, now

1:11:10.800 --> 1:11:13.559
<v Speaker 5>I need to like get up using my entire body.

1:11:13.640 --> 1:11:15.519
<v Speaker 5>So really just trying to mimic, like what are the

1:11:15.720 --> 1:11:22.240
<v Speaker 5>exercises that I'm going to be doing in the mountains.

1:11:22.040 --> 1:11:24.160
<v Speaker 5>That's very vague. It's hard to like lay out an

1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:26.880
<v Speaker 5>entire week of fitness, but I do think probably two

1:11:26.920 --> 1:11:30.240
<v Speaker 5>days of strength training a week, three days are rucking,

1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:33.280
<v Speaker 5>and then another day of some other type of cardio.

1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:42.160
<v Speaker 2>Makes sense. You are in a you're in an interesting

1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:44.320
<v Speaker 2>line of work, and I can relate to it, and

1:11:44.360 --> 1:11:48.840
<v Speaker 2>that you have attacked a single problem or idea in

1:11:48.960 --> 1:11:51.439
<v Speaker 2>book form, and I know that takes years and years

1:11:51.880 --> 1:11:53.960
<v Speaker 2>before it finally comes out. So I'm sure you've worked

1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:56.880
<v Speaker 2>on the comfort crisis for years behind the scenes, and

1:11:56.920 --> 1:11:59.200
<v Speaker 2>then finally it came out in twenty twenty one or

1:11:59.240 --> 1:12:01.320
<v Speaker 2>whatever it was, and then you talked about a bunch,

1:12:02.120 --> 1:12:03.760
<v Speaker 2>but it had been like three or four years or

1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:07.520
<v Speaker 2>however long of that kind of marinating in your subconscious

1:12:07.560 --> 1:12:09.680
<v Speaker 2>And then same thing with Scarcy of bring you. You

1:12:09.720 --> 1:12:11.679
<v Speaker 2>went off into the dark, and you work for years,

1:12:11.680 --> 1:12:13.320
<v Speaker 2>and then you finally came out into the world with it,

1:12:13.600 --> 1:12:15.080
<v Speaker 2>and then everybody wants to talk to you about that

1:12:15.200 --> 1:12:17.160
<v Speaker 2>set of ideas. But you've already been working on for

1:12:17.200 --> 1:12:21.559
<v Speaker 2>three years now. You're doing that with Walking with Weight.

1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:27.559
<v Speaker 2>But oftentimes the thing that you just published is something

1:12:27.600 --> 1:12:29.840
<v Speaker 2>that you're almost tired of already thinking about because you've

1:12:29.840 --> 1:12:33.840
<v Speaker 2>been writing about it for so many years, right, yes, exactly.

1:12:35.040 --> 1:12:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Even though nobody else realized that you've been thinking about

1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:39.519
<v Speaker 2>this entire time, you have, and so you're almost sick

1:12:39.520 --> 1:12:43.160
<v Speaker 2>of it. So you do this newsletter where you're talking

1:12:43.160 --> 1:12:46.000
<v Speaker 2>about kind of this intersection of fitness and mental health

1:12:46.080 --> 1:12:50.960
<v Speaker 2>and mindset and nutrition and all these different things. And

1:12:51.000 --> 1:12:53.360
<v Speaker 2>you've written these books about kind of the intersection of

1:12:53.400 --> 1:12:58.760
<v Speaker 2>all these different things. What right now are you actually

1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:03.160
<v Speaker 2>not sick of talking talking about, not exhausted by, but

1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:08.040
<v Speaker 2>genuinely most excited and fascinated about when it comes to

1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the world that you were working What's this is? This

1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:11.920
<v Speaker 2>is my last question for it. What's the one thing

1:13:11.960 --> 1:13:16.800
<v Speaker 2>that you are the most full of, bestination by and

1:13:16.840 --> 1:13:18.920
<v Speaker 2>excited about and that we could kind of leave off

1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:20.200
<v Speaker 2>with one set of ideas around.

1:13:21.760 --> 1:13:24.000
<v Speaker 5>That's a great question, and my answer will be somewhat

1:13:25.360 --> 1:13:29.360
<v Speaker 5>unsatisfying because it's this next book I'm working on about

1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:31.479
<v Speaker 5>that long hike I did and the book. I'll kind

1:13:31.520 --> 1:13:33.920
<v Speaker 5>of give you a preview without giving too much away.

1:13:34.240 --> 1:13:35.760
<v Speaker 5>And I also don't want to talk too much because

1:13:35.800 --> 1:13:37.240
<v Speaker 5>I'll say something that will get cut out of the

1:13:37.240 --> 1:13:37.920
<v Speaker 5>book entirely.

1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:39.160
<v Speaker 4>I know it is.

1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:42.680
<v Speaker 3>So the book really looks at.

1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:45.120
<v Speaker 5>I think we can all agree that the world has

1:13:45.120 --> 1:13:47.160
<v Speaker 5>never been better if you look at it in the

1:13:47.200 --> 1:13:50.840
<v Speaker 5>grand scheme of time and space. We're living twice as long,

1:13:52.520 --> 1:13:56.519
<v Speaker 5>we have roofs over our head, vast majority of people

1:13:56.560 --> 1:14:02.559
<v Speaker 5>have ample food, we have climate can We have modern

1:14:02.600 --> 1:14:05.479
<v Speaker 5>medicine that would make the gods jealous. We have instant

1:14:05.560 --> 1:14:09.799
<v Speaker 5>entertainment at our fingertips all the time. Things should be perfect,

1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:14.040
<v Speaker 5>But when you look at mental health, things have never

1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:18.000
<v Speaker 5>been worse than slow down trend despite things being perfect.

1:14:18.000 --> 1:14:20.960
<v Speaker 5>And so why is that? And that's what the book

1:14:20.960 --> 1:14:24.840
<v Speaker 5>gets into, and I think I think it goes back

1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:26.720
<v Speaker 5>to some of what we've been talking about in this conversation,

1:14:28.160 --> 1:14:32.040
<v Speaker 5>is that the world no longer forces our hand in

1:14:32.080 --> 1:14:36.080
<v Speaker 5>a way and what actually makes people healthy and happy

1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:40.040
<v Speaker 5>and feel alive is having your hand get forced and

1:14:40.080 --> 1:14:42.840
<v Speaker 5>having a mission and having to figure shit out and

1:14:42.880 --> 1:14:46.320
<v Speaker 5>being pressed up against and it can be hard in

1:14:46.360 --> 1:14:49.479
<v Speaker 5>the short term, but you get through that and it

1:14:49.560 --> 1:14:52.519
<v Speaker 5>teaches you something fundamental about being a person where you

1:14:52.560 --> 1:14:54.400
<v Speaker 5>stand in the world, and about what it means to

1:14:54.400 --> 1:14:59.080
<v Speaker 5>be alive. And as the world got better and more comfortable, yeah,

1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:01.360
<v Speaker 5>it's been great because I can watch a thousand dog

1:15:01.400 --> 1:15:04.160
<v Speaker 5>reels if I want, and modern medicine is amazing and

1:15:04.280 --> 1:15:06.840
<v Speaker 5>all these things. It really is amazing what we have

1:15:07.600 --> 1:15:10.680
<v Speaker 5>in the process lost these really fundamental things that make

1:15:10.760 --> 1:15:14.240
<v Speaker 5>us happy and satisfied. And so to me, the answer,

1:15:15.200 --> 1:15:17.599
<v Speaker 5>to sort of re quote myself from before, it's not, oh,

1:15:17.600 --> 1:15:18.800
<v Speaker 5>I'm just going to go live in the woods like

1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:20.479
<v Speaker 5>hell no, But it's what can I do in my

1:15:20.600 --> 1:15:22.680
<v Speaker 5>day to day life that pushes back against that so

1:15:22.680 --> 1:15:24.360
<v Speaker 5>I can get the best of both worlds. So that's

1:15:24.400 --> 1:15:27.320
<v Speaker 5>kind of what the book covers. And that's the I

1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:29.640
<v Speaker 5>as I know you're down a rabbit hole with your

1:15:29.680 --> 1:15:32.240
<v Speaker 5>book as well, that's the rabbit hole I've been down.

1:15:33.120 --> 1:15:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, it sounds like a fascinating one, and it you know,

1:15:36.840 --> 1:15:39.759
<v Speaker 2>it's almost back to the idea of like rewilding your life.

1:15:39.840 --> 1:15:43.519
<v Speaker 2>I feel like is kind of part of the answer

1:15:43.560 --> 1:15:45.400
<v Speaker 2>to many of those questions and many of the questions

1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:47.639
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of us are asking. So I can't

1:15:47.640 --> 1:15:50.080
<v Speaker 2>wait to see the new book when that one comes out.

1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:53.479
<v Speaker 2>I've enjoyed every single one of the things you've written

1:15:53.479 --> 1:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>to this point. For those people who have not yet

1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:58.600
<v Speaker 2>picked up the books, and obviously the one that's going

1:15:58.640 --> 1:16:01.439
<v Speaker 2>to be releasing here shortly, could you plug a quick

1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:03.559
<v Speaker 2>description of what those are, where they can find them,

1:16:03.680 --> 1:16:05.640
<v Speaker 2>how they can connect with you and your substack and

1:16:05.800 --> 1:16:06.120
<v Speaker 2>all that.

1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:09.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Probably the best place to find me is on

1:16:09.360 --> 1:16:12.880
<v Speaker 5>my substack. It's called two percent. It's at two pct

1:16:13.040 --> 1:16:16.800
<v Speaker 5>dot com. There's links to all the books there, and

1:16:16.840 --> 1:16:19.920
<v Speaker 5>that's kind of where I publish about three times a week.

1:16:19.960 --> 1:16:21.719
<v Speaker 5>It's a lot of writing, but it allows me to

1:16:21.760 --> 1:16:24.240
<v Speaker 5>think and get my ideas out, and that's probably the

1:16:24.240 --> 1:16:25.040
<v Speaker 5>best place to find me.

1:16:25.600 --> 1:16:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Perfect. I appreciate this time, Michael, I enjoyed it. I

1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:32.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, as I've mentioned already, really appreciate your work

1:16:32.880 --> 1:16:34.960
<v Speaker 2>and what you're bringing into the world. So keep it up. Yeah,

1:16:35.800 --> 1:16:39.799
<v Speaker 2>try to stay sane in the midst of this book project,

1:16:39.920 --> 1:16:42.040
<v Speaker 2>and I can't wait to circle back.

1:16:42.479 --> 1:16:48.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah you two likewise man, all right, and.

1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:51.679
<v Speaker 2>That's going to do it for our episode today. Thanks

1:16:51.680 --> 1:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>for being a part of this community, were tuning in

1:16:54.000 --> 1:16:56.720
<v Speaker 2>today here. I hope this is a useful way to

1:16:56.840 --> 1:16:59.280
<v Speaker 2>kick off the new year, giving you some ideas that can,

1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, come with you throughout twenty twenty six, help

1:17:02.400 --> 1:17:05.200
<v Speaker 2>you as you start planning your next hunting season, or

1:17:05.200 --> 1:17:08.519
<v Speaker 2>your next fishing trip or outdoor adventure, or maybe just

1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:12.559
<v Speaker 2>your next regular day of life, because those sometimes need

1:17:12.640 --> 1:17:14.920
<v Speaker 2>some pick me ups too, and some new ideas as well. So,

1:17:15.360 --> 1:17:18.720
<v Speaker 2>without any more from me, thanks for being here, and

1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:22.000
<v Speaker 2>until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.