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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Michael Easter. He is the

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Speaker 2: author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain, and we're

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Speaker 2: discussing tangible ways we can add wildness back into our

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Speaker 2: lives and the real impact that can have on our happiness,

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Speaker 2: our outdoor pursuits, and our sense of satisfaction across all things.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by First Light, and Happy New Year.

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Speaker 2: A new Year's upon us. I can't believe that's the case.

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Speaker 2: We're two weeks in now, I suppose, and it's always

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Speaker 2: shocking how quickly these things sneak up on us. But

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six is here, and we're gonna be kicking

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Speaker 2: off the new year.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Last week we discussed some of the top conservation issues

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Speaker 2: to be thinking about and looking forward to today, and

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Speaker 2: then again in a couple of weeks we're going to

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Speaker 2: do a couple outside the box episodes, some episodes where

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Speaker 2: we explore topics that are a little bit beyond strictly

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Speaker 2: deer hunting, beyond strictly how to, and we're gonna zoom

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Speaker 2: out a bit and explore some different ideas and philosophies

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Speaker 2: or concepts things that can help you become a better

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Speaker 2: deer hunter, but also help you become a better angler

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Speaker 2: outdoors men or woman, a student, businessman or woman, dad, mom, son, daughter,

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Speaker 2: person in general. We're gonna get outside of the usual

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Speaker 2: and talk about some higher level things that impact our

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Speaker 2: daily lives but definitely have a significant influence on who

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Speaker 2: we are as hunters or anglers. Some of these will

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Speaker 2: be discussing, you know, how to perform better, how to excel,

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Speaker 2: how to be excellent at something like hunting or fishing

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Speaker 2: or hiking or backpacking. But we're also going to discuss

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Speaker 2: how to, you know, think about success, how to set

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Speaker 2: better goals, how to be more productive or happier or

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Speaker 2: enjoy the pursuits that you are chasing, whatever that might be.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of what we're going to explore a couple

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Speaker 2: times here to set ourselves up to hopefully have maybe

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Speaker 2: our best year ever, and today's guest is I think

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Speaker 2: the perfect person to help us do that. As I

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Speaker 2: mentioned in the introduction, this is Michael Easter. He is

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Speaker 2: a journalist and an author of two really great books

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Speaker 2: that I've enjoyed in the past. The Comfort Crisis, which

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Speaker 2: explores the many different ways that our increasingly comfortable world

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Speaker 2: is impacting us in possibly negative ways. Great book. It

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Speaker 2: uses a really exciting Alaskan backcountry hunt as the spine

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Speaker 2: of that story with Donnie Vincent, who's a past guest

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Speaker 2: of this podcast too, so highly recommend that. His book,

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Speaker 2: Scarcity Brain explores how kind of the evolutionary history of

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Speaker 2: humanity has led us to have this constant desire for

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Speaker 2: more and more and more, and how all sorts of

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Speaker 2: things out there in the world kind of spike these

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Speaker 2: habits or addictive behaviors that make us crave more food,

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Speaker 2: or more social media, or more status or more many

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Speaker 2: different things. So very interesting read. And then here in

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Speaker 2: the next couple weeks, I believe he has another book

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Speaker 2: coming out called Walking with Weight, and that's all about

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Speaker 2: the very specific physical practice of rucking hiking around with

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Speaker 2: a big, heavy backpack. That book's got a lot of

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Speaker 2: very relevant stuff for hunters or outdoors. People who get

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Speaker 2: outside carry heavy things. So that's the background he brings

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Speaker 2: to this. He also has the two Percent sub Stack,

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Speaker 2: which is a terrific website, a newsletter that he sends

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Speaker 2: out and that is on a quote here that explores simple,

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Speaker 2: actionable strategies to improve your physical health, mental resilience, performance,

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Speaker 2: and purpose. And I think that sums up his work

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Speaker 2: very well. But I would add one additional qualifier, and

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Speaker 2: this is something that came up in my conversation with Michael.

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Speaker 2: This idea that kind of bubbled up for me that

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Speaker 2: much of what he talks about, much of what he prescribes,

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Speaker 2: is all about rewilding our lives. It's inserting stuff back

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Speaker 2: into our lives that used to be just what regular

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Speaker 2: wild humans used to do. Even humans one hundred years

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Speaker 2: ago used to do this stuff all the time. But

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Speaker 2: modern day life, cities, technology, all of that has kind

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Speaker 2: of stripped it away in many ways. It's stripped discomfort,

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Speaker 2: it's stripped challenge, it's stripped community or structure out of

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Speaker 2: our lives. And Michael has explored unique ideas for bringing

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Speaker 2: that back. And so that's what we discussed to we

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Speaker 2: discuss how to rewild our lives in this new year.

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Speaker 2: How that can make you a better hunter, How that

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Speaker 2: can make you a better outdoors men or woman, and

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Speaker 2: a happier, more satisfied, productive, successful, healthy person in whatever

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Speaker 2: pursuit it is you want to apply it to. So

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Speaker 2: some very specific things we discuss include New Year's resolutions,

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Speaker 2: the science behind them, if they work or not, ideas

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Speaker 2: for setting goals for the new year, the possible risks

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Speaker 2: of setting goals around your recreational pursuits and your hobbies

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Speaker 2: like hunting or fishing. We think discussed some different things

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Speaker 2: around how modern high tech life today is changing our experiences,

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Speaker 2: changing what it means to be human. It's changing our happiness,

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Speaker 2: our satisfaction, even how we experience hunts or fishing trips

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Speaker 2: or camping trips. How all that's kind of infiltrating our

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Speaker 2: outdoor pursuits. We talk about social media. We talk about

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Speaker 2: how that's kind of hijacked our minds and how we

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Speaker 2: might be able to reclaim control over that, which is

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Speaker 2: certainly relevant to us as hunters and outdoors people who

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Speaker 2: you know, we of course engage in social media. But

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Speaker 2: then there's this whole other comparison culture thing that is

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Speaker 2: happening within our community and influencing how we, you know,

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Speaker 2: judge success, how we feel about our you know, whether

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Speaker 2: it be an animal that we tagged, or the goals

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Speaker 2: we set for the year, or anything like that. So

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to unpack there. We discuss different ways

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Speaker 2: to set big outdoor challenges and ways to explore our

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Speaker 2: edges and exploring you know, how to do things outside

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Speaker 2: of our comfort zone and why that's important, how to

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Speaker 2: best do that. Some cool ideas around that. We get

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Speaker 2: into some physical training, some simple ways that we can

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Speaker 2: become healthier, more capable backcountry hunters or mobile deer hunters

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Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. There's some simple but useful

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Speaker 2: ideas here that we discussed with Michael. So there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: This is a great conversation.

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Speaker 4: Really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: I highly recommend picking up those books I mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 2: If you're into the rocking idea, this kind of backpacking

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Speaker 2: for physical fitness, check out his newest book, Walking with Weight.

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Speaker 2: And I will just say again, this is a conversation

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Speaker 2: that is really relevant to you as a deer hunter

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Speaker 2: or outdoors person. But I think you're going to see

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Speaker 2: a lot here that can be applied across the rest

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Speaker 2: of your life too. So I hope you enjoy it

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Speaker 2: as much as I did. And thanks for being here

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Speaker 2: all right now with me on the line is Michael Easter.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. Michael.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 2: Man, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to chatting again. It's always funny to you.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I enjoyed our last podcast, which felt like

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that long ago. But when I went back

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Speaker 2: to kind of double check that, I realized it was

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Speaker 2: five years ago, which is nuts. How fast this is

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Speaker 2: all going.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 5: I told my wife was like, what are you doing?

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Speaker 5: So I'm gone on podcasts? You said, oh, what is it?

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Speaker 5: And I told her it was yours. She goes, have

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Speaker 5: you ever been on that? And I said yeah, and

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Speaker 5: she goes, oh, when was that same deal? I was like,

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Speaker 5: I want to say it was like a year ago,

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Speaker 5: but if I actually look, it's like half a decade ago.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's pretty wild. How all the cliche things

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Speaker 2: that are that our parents and teachers and everyone said

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Speaker 2: about how fast life goes, It's it's all very true. Yes,

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Speaker 2: So here we are twenty I was about to say

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. It's twenty twenty six now New Year,

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Speaker 2: and as I think, you know a lot of people

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Speaker 2: do at this time of year, there's all this focus

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Speaker 2: on New Year's resolutions, new year, new you, setting new goals,

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Speaker 2: setting new plans, all of that. And I am one

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Speaker 2: of those nerds who gets into that. I'm very into that.

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Speaker 2: My wife and I literally had a sit down like

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Speaker 2: annual review last night, talking through our plan for the

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Speaker 2: new year and our goals and some things like that.

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Speaker 2: But what's your take on that, What's what's your personal

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Speaker 2: take on, you know, this kind of new year, new

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Speaker 2: youth thing. And then what does the you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure if you've looked in this specifically, but do

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Speaker 2: you have any sense of what the literature says or

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Speaker 2: what the you know, the the research points to as

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Speaker 2: far as the effectiveness of setting your year kind of

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Speaker 2: on this kind of annual calendar type of reset.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, look, look, man, I think it's I

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Speaker 5: think it's good. Like people can change any time they want, right,

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Speaker 5: it's like to begin begin, but the new year gives

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Speaker 5: us an impetus to change. I think that set this

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Speaker 5: is the bad news when you look at their research,

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Speaker 5: most people fail, so like ninety five percent of New

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Speaker 5: Year's resolutions fail. Yeah, and there's a variety of reasons

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Speaker 5: for that, which I think we can get into in this,

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Speaker 5: But first I would actually like to hear how'd you

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Speaker 5: fair in your uh in your annual review? Tell me

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Speaker 5: all about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, without getting into too many of the gory details.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five passed. I had a passing grade as

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Speaker 2: far as both my personal goals and what my wife

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Speaker 2: was hoping for from me. There's always a little bit

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Speaker 2: of that, you know, friction, not friction, but just you know,

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Speaker 2: you're married, you know how it is with a marriage.

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Speaker 2: It's trying to bring together two totally different world views

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Speaker 2: and perspectives and lives to then say like are we

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Speaker 2: heading to the right direction? And are we going there

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Speaker 2: in the right ways? And so fortunately it's a great marriage.

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Speaker 2: I have a great wife, and so we're mostly on

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Speaker 2: the same page. But then there's always you know, you know, well,

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Speaker 2: she'll say things like can't you just be normal? And

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Speaker 2: I guess I don't know how to be normal. I

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Speaker 2: am what I am, so overall good, but with a

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Speaker 2: typical marriage fund, So what's exciting year for us.

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Speaker 5: What I like about that though, is that there was

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Speaker 5: some sort of analysis that happened. So I think one

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Speaker 5: problem that people run into and why these things often fail,

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Speaker 5: these resolutions, if you'll call them, is that there's no

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Speaker 5: analysis of well, where have I gone wrong?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Right? We don't look.

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Speaker 5: Back and try and take measurements of what are my

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Speaker 5: weak points, what are my failures so I can improve

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Speaker 5: upon those weak points. Instead, people often say I'm going

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Speaker 5: to create this new big goal and I'm just going

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Speaker 5: to work towards that. But if you haven't fixed what

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Speaker 5: your biggest problems are, this is like trying to give

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Speaker 5: gas to these big new habits as you have your

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Speaker 5: foot on the break. So in my opinion, and I

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Speaker 5: think the research backs this, is that it is our

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Speaker 5: worst habits that really hold us back. Like if you

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Speaker 5: don't fix your worst habits, you're not going to go

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Speaker 5: forward at all. So I say that because I like

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Speaker 5: how you did that analysis, and I think that a

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Speaker 5: lot of people would benefit in the new year instead

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Speaker 5: of picking some random goal and saying, no, I'm going

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Speaker 5: to do this big thing, it's going to change my life.

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Speaker 5: To look back and go, Okay, well, what do I

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Speaker 5: think is actually holding me back? And what can I

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Speaker 5: do to sort of alleviate that whatever whatever it might be.

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Speaker 5: Oftentimes you don't have to set a big new goal.

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Speaker 5: If you just take your foot off that break, all

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Speaker 5: of a sudden, everything else will start changing. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think the extreme kit to just give an extreme case,

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Speaker 5: because I think people like examples.

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Speaker 3: For me at least it helps them stick.

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Speaker 5: Is if you think about someone who's let's say an alcoholic, right,

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Speaker 5: people who are in the grips of drinking will often go,

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Speaker 5: I just need to exercise more. I just need to

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Speaker 5: eat a healthy diet. My life will improve. I just

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Speaker 5: need to do X y Z. It's like, but if

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Speaker 5: this person, if your fundamental problem is that, like you

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Speaker 5: have this terrible habit of drinking too much, it doesn't

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Speaker 5: matter all the good stuff you do, like, you're still

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Speaker 5: going to be held back in life. So it's like,

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Speaker 5: how can you just pull your foot off the break

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Speaker 5: of that bad thing? And then oftentimes everything will sort

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Speaker 5: itself out afterwards.

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Speaker 2: So I got to believe that most of your work

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Speaker 2: around this for people, or I think why many people

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Speaker 2: come to you really is how do they you know,

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Speaker 2: build better habits, change their lifestyle, build better frameworks and

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Speaker 2: systems to have a healthier, more satisfying life, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But on this topic of goals and and you know,

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Speaker 2: developing some sense of direction of where you want to

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Speaker 2: take things, whether it's eliminating a bad habit or adding

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Speaker 2: a better habit, or setting some kind of stretch goal

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Speaker 2: or taking on something challenging. What happens when you apply

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Speaker 2: that to a recreational pursuit? You know? I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: there's the thought around, like hunters and anglers, we do

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Speaker 2: this thing that brings us joy, that that brings us peace.

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Speaker 2: But then there's also the desire to set goals within that. Right,

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Speaker 2: Increasingly people want to get the next big buck or

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Speaker 2: a bigger buck, or they want to get three bucks,

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Speaker 2: or they want to do this big new fishing trip

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Speaker 2: or achieve this grand slam thing. Fish x y Z states,

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Speaker 2: there's all these different ways that we gamify recreation in

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Speaker 2: our pursuits and passions. What's the impact of that? Is that?

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Speaker 4: Is there a.

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Speaker 2: Danger in that? Is that a healthy thing to do?

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Speaker 2: Does that risk our enjoyment or help it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I'm going to answer that multiple ways, because I feel

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Speaker 5: like there's kind of a layering of questions in there,

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Speaker 5: which I like. So on one hand, it's good to

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Speaker 5: have a big goal, right it inspires you, maybe starts

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Speaker 5: you to get acting. But the problem often is that

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Speaker 5: if the goal is way too big, you start to fail,

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Speaker 5: and when you start to get the negative feedback towards failure,

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Speaker 5: people often quit. And it's also asking for a lot

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Speaker 5: of change at once. So I think sometimes it's better

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Speaker 5: to break things up into manageable sections and to think, Okay,

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Speaker 5: my goal is to complete this Grand Slam or whatever,

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Speaker 5: but what are the ten things I'm going to have

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Speaker 5: to do in order to actually reach that? And so

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Speaker 5: the goal becomes the first step of that because that's

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Speaker 5: a lot more easy to reach. And so once you've

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Speaker 5: hit that, you get some momentum, you get this positive feedback,

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Speaker 5: and you can start to build on that positive feedback.

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Speaker 5: So I wouldn't you know, I'm not the type of

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Speaker 5: person to say, like, oh, just just pick the easiest

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Speaker 5: goal and go for that, because I think that can

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Speaker 5: be limiting to people. Keep your big goal, but how

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Speaker 5: can you chop it up into much more manageable steps.

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Speaker 5: I mean, like A big part of my so might

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Speaker 5: substack newsletter is called the two percent newsletter, and it's

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Speaker 5: the name comes from a study that found that only

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Speaker 5: two percent of people take the stairs when there's an

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Speaker 5: escalator available. Now, to me, one hundred percent of people

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Speaker 5: know that taking the stairs is going to be better

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Speaker 5: for their health, well being, their mental health, all these

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Speaker 5: different things, and yet ninety percent of people just default

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Speaker 5: to the easy, effortless thing where if you can just

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Speaker 5: start with the stairs, one set of stairs is not

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Speaker 5: going to change your life. But if you take the

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Speaker 5: next setistairs, the next setistairs, and then you go, oh,

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Speaker 5: you know what, by going through that little bit of discomfort,

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Speaker 5: I sort of improved. And where else can I apply

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Speaker 5: that two percent mindset across the board to different things?

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Speaker 5: Now I'm parking in the farthest spot of the parking lot,

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Speaker 5: Now I'm going you know what, I'm not going to

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Speaker 5: eat those oreos before I go to bed or whatever.

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Speaker 5: It might be just like finding these little wins, and

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Speaker 5: I think those wins can stack up and that can

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Speaker 5: be applied to these larger goals too, of like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: what's the next small win I can do?

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Speaker 3: What can I do?

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Speaker 5: Today to sort of get me there, and you sort

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Speaker 5: of keep doing that and then you find yourself going,

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Speaker 5: oh my god, I just I just complained to this

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Speaker 5: grand slam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I like the way that James Clear puts it.

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Speaker 2: He says something something along the lines of, you know,

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Speaker 2: every action you take is a vote for the kind

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Speaker 2: of person you want to be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I thought about that a lot. It's like, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is this is something that signals my end state that

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Speaker 2: I want to be at it. This is the kind

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Speaker 2: of thing that that kind of person would do, and

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Speaker 2: so I'm gonna start to do that kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: take the stairs, or drink the water or whatever it

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Speaker 2: might be. It's those little things that, to your point,

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Speaker 2: they stack up. And I don't know if you meant

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Speaker 2: this with your you know, or at least when I

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Speaker 2: first saw you the title for your newsletter. The two

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Speaker 2: percent thought that I had was not only is two

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Speaker 2: percent representative of the small minority of people who will

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Speaker 2: do the harder thing, but I also think that also

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Speaker 2: if you think about doing the harder thing, it's getting

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Speaker 2: like two percent better every day or every week. That's

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Speaker 2: how we get better at anything. That's how we grow

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Speaker 2: that's how we build satisfaction or accomplishment or whatever. It's

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Speaker 2: by like stacking up these little one percents here, two

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Speaker 2: percents here, week after week, year after year. That's something

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Speaker 2: we talk about in the hunting world all the time.

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Speaker 2: It's it's stacking all these tiny little variables, getting a

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Speaker 2: little better in all these different little ways over time,

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Speaker 2: and that compounds, and so that mindset, I think, you

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Speaker 2: know there's a lot to it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know it's not two percent of people

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Speaker 5: climb everest, it's two percent of people take a freaking

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Speaker 5: staircase right at Sometimes the most obvious wins in life,

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Speaker 5: we just neglect them. I think a lot of this

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Speaker 5: goes back to like our evolutionary wiring of we're effectively

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Speaker 5: wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing, because

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Speaker 5: that always kept us alive in these harsh environments. But

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Speaker 5: now we've engineered our world for comfort and ease, we

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Speaker 5: still have that sort of wiring that pushed us to

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Speaker 5: do the easy thing, even though it doesn't help us

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Speaker 5: in the long run. So it's sort of overcoming that

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Speaker 5: in different ways all the time. And then to sort

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Speaker 5: of continue answering the question that you asked a bit ago,

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Speaker 5: and you you basically asked about gamifying habits.

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Speaker 3: Okay, to me, that's a double edged sword.

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Speaker 5: On one hand, having gamification and numbers can incentivize people

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Speaker 5: because it allows us to measure and see our improvements.

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Speaker 5: The downside, though, is that the way that we gamify

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Speaker 5: things narrows the goal to a set of numbers, and

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Speaker 5: we get fixated on those numbers, whereas if we look

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Speaker 5: at the actual big thing we're trying to accomplish, it's

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Speaker 5: often not to just get a number. I'll use the

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Speaker 5: example of like fitness trackers and step counts, so people

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Speaker 5: will get a step counter. So we're gonna quantify our activity.

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Speaker 5: We're gonna tell ourselves I need to get twelve thousand

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Speaker 5: steps a day. So you start to like, okay, twelve

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Speaker 5: thousand's my number, right, goal, go twelve thousand. I got

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Speaker 5: to get this twelve thousand every day, and you get

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Speaker 5: fixated on that number.

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Speaker 3: But if you pull back, what is the point? What

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Speaker 3: is the overall point?

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Speaker 5: The overall point is not to get twelve thousand steps

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Speaker 5: a day. The overall point is to become a more

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Speaker 5: active person. Why do we want to become a more

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Speaker 5: active person, so we can get healthier, maybe our mindset

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Speaker 5: will improve, maybe will be less stressed, all these other

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Speaker 5: thing But when we start to fixate on the number,

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Speaker 5: we often lose sight of those bigger, larger goals, and

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Speaker 5: that can sometimes steer us wrong. So it's again, it's

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Speaker 5: one of those double edged swords, and you have to

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Speaker 5: kind of realize, how is the gamification helping push me

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Speaker 5: towards this larger like this larger goal I'm going for,

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Speaker 5: But you also have to avoid getting sucked into just

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Speaker 5: the goal of this number for the sake of the number.

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Speaker 5: If that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: It does. And here's another kind of double edged sword

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Speaker 2: issue within this that I've wrestled with a lot, is

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Speaker 2: like this tendency that many of us have to want

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Speaker 2: to be achievement oriented, to want to grow, to want

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Speaker 2: to get better at something, and how that impacts something

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Speaker 2: that is a passion, a recreational pursuit. Again going back

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Speaker 2: to this core example of like hunting or fishing, right,

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people, they come to that as

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Speaker 2: just like a thing for fun. And you write about

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Speaker 2: in the Comfort Crisis about the importance of you know,

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Speaker 2: having space and peace and boredom and quiet time and

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Speaker 2: all of that. And you experience that in the Arctic

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Speaker 2: when hunting with Downey, and I think many other people

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Speaker 2: do when they're deer hunting or fishing or anything like that. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's a place for you know, it's not necessarily boredom,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's space and quiet and indifferent than normal

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Speaker 2: everyday life. But then so many times this thing all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden like builds momentum, and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden it's like, well, now I want to get more

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Speaker 2: or I want to get better, I want to do this,

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Speaker 2: and so you start attaching goals to this thing where

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, what was just a fun, peaceful

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Speaker 2: joy experience transitions to this achievement experience, and all the

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Speaker 2: things that you just talked about there where all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden it's like I need to get ten fish,

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Speaker 2: I need to kill you know, one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 2: five inch buck, or I need to do whatever the

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Speaker 2: thing is. And then all of a sudden, there's not

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Speaker 2: only the you know, there's not only kind of this like

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Speaker 2: reinforcing effect of chasing, you know, losing sight of the

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Speaker 2: forest for the trees kind of thing, but then you're

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Speaker 2: also attaching pressures to it, and I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's there's these two things that there's the value of

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Speaker 2: doing hard things that you talk about so often it

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Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense, But then there's also this

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Speaker 2: value to sometimes just having experiences or just joy for

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Speaker 2: the sake of that too, like being a human. How

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Speaker 2: do you reconcile that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think your example of Antler scores is that

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Speaker 5: the correct terminology. Yeah, that's a perfect example. Yeah, where

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Speaker 5: it's like, why'd you start hunting in the first place?

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Speaker 5: Probably day one, it wasn't oh I want to get

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Speaker 5: one hundred and seventy five, Like it's just it's such

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Speaker 5: an arbitrary y exactly, But once you get deeper into it,

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Speaker 5: that becomes the goal and like not really the goal

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Speaker 5: of hunting is like you're going to get outside, You're

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Speaker 5: going to move around, You're going to engage in this

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Speaker 5: practice that humans have engaged in ever since we started

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Speaker 5: walking on two feet, and even before then when we

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Speaker 5: weren't even humans.

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Speaker 3: Right. So for me.

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00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 5: To answer your question about how do I sort of

436
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 5: balance those things, I just try and not pay attention

437
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 5: to the numbers. I try and always ask myself why

438
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 5: am I doing this thing in the first place? I

439
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 5: could apply that to like, I don't know weekly run mileages.

440
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 5: I've never really gotten into antler size and hunting, and

441
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 5: I don't hunt all that often, maybe like once a

442
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 5: year about the past couple of years.

443
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 3: Haven't made it out at all. I just like, I

444
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 3: don't know.

445
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 5: I'm just very cognizant of the fact that, Okay, why, I'm.

446
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 3: Always going back to the why, the deeper why? What's that?

447
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 5: Like a istn't there's some practice in Toyota. The guy

448
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 5: who found a Toyota was like, you got to ask

449
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 5: why six times?

450
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: Interesting?

451
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: So you go, okay, well why are we doing this?

452
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 3: But why? Let's the answer to that. But why?

453
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 5: And then once you get down to the sixth time,

454
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 5: you're like that, that's what we're after right there. So

455
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 5: I think if people can do that, you can sort

456
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 5: of get back to the original joy and purpose of

457
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 5: an activity you're doing. M and I will I will

458
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 5: admit this is like very philosophical, right I. Unfortunately with

459
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 5: a question like this, I can't give you, Well, here's

460
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 5: my three step framework. Just do exactly this and your

461
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 5: life will change immediately. It's like, well, life is actually

462
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 5: a lot more complicated than that. Yeah, which is probably why,

463
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 5: which is probably why I don't know my sub stack

464
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 5: couldn't be as good if I could, couldn't have as

465
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 5: many subscribers. If I would just say, here's a secret

466
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 5: to life, two steps to do it, pay me my

467
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 5: seven dollars month, we'll move on.

468
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 4: Uh huh.

469
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: Well, well to your point that life is not black

470
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: and white and simple. It is complex, and your work

471
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: I think ties in very well and is a part

472
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: of a growing collection of thinkers and writers and other

473
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: people exploring something that I think is succinctly I mean,

474
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 2: you call it the comfort crisis. Another way of describing

475
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: that I saw with the title of book is like

476
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: the extinction of experience, that being kind of this losing,

477
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,239
Speaker 2: this losing connection to like, our humanity because of all

478
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: of these different forces of the modern day kind of

479
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: bearing in on us. Whether that be more and more

480
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: people living in cities and all the chaos that comes

481
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: with that, whether it be the addiction to screen time

482
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: you've written about that of course, whether it be the

483
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: way that corporations are hijacking our psychology to get us

484
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: to go deeper and deeper into all those things. Now

485
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: you have AI, which is infiltrating our lives in all

486
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: these different places, and now you know whether it's filling

487
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: all media with a bunch of AI slop, whether it

488
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: be distorting what we can believe is true or not,

489
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: or whether it be actually like creating intermediaries where we

490
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: are now interfacing with machine intelligences instead of real people

491
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: when we have relationship problems, or when we need advice,

492
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: or when we look for answers to questions. There's all

493
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: of these things that are pulling us further and further

494
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: away from being I think what we what a fundamentally

495
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: means to be a human. And I feel like hunters

496
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: and anglers, like outdoors people are fortunate and that we've

497
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: maybe stumbled into one of the potential antidotes to much

498
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: of this. But even within this community, I know from

499
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: myself experiencing it and from talking to many other people

500
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: like we're feeling it too. We're still experiencing many of

501
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: these other things. So you wrote The Comfort Crisis five

502
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: years ago, You've you've done similar We've explored this overarching

503
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: top I've talked about in the Scarcity of Brain. I'm

504
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: sure in your new book you're working on. I know

505
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: in your newsletter, what is your prognosis of where we

506
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: are today five years after the Comfort Crisis was published?

507
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: Now that AI is overwhelming, We're in a different world

508
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: than we were five six years ago when you worked

509
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: on that first major piece. What's your sense of where

510
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: we are right now? And are the things that you

511
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: started writing about then more important now less important? Do

512
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: you have a different perspective in any kind of way?

513
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 3: I think they're more important.

514
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 5: I will say that there are signs that people are

515
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 5: starting to realize this, probably because I mean, you know,

516
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 5: like you said, there's people writing, but a lot of

517
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 5: people are noticing this and writing about it and thinking

518
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 5: about it and thinking what can we do about it?

519
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 5: Like I read an article in the New York Times

520
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 5: the other day about a group of high school kids

521
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 5: who went back to flipflons just started hanging out in person.

522
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: That's great, yea.

523
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 5: At the same time, these are rare instances. I think

524
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 5: technology the point of technology is to make life easier,

525
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 5: more thoughtless, more effortless, more nice, comfortable.

526
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: Whatever.

527
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 5: The problem is is that humans don't grow and learn

528
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: through everything being effortless and comfortable. I think a lot

529
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 5: of the thing. There's fundamental problems with the technology, but

530
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 5: I think one of the biggest problems is that it

531
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 5: takes us out of the experiences that we need to

532
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 5: have in order to be healthy, happy.

533
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: And well. So, what are you doing when you are

534
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: sitting at home on your phone watching the seventy ninth

535
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: Instagram reel of the last you know? Five minutes you're indoors.

536
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: You're not outside.

537
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 5: The temperature is perfect, right, it's exactly dial to your specification,

538
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 5: so you're not getting any sort of outside friction from

539
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 5: the weather and temperature changes. You're also not moving right,

540
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 5: You're not moving your body. You're not with other people

541
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 5: because you're sucked into this device. There could be your

542
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 5: wife or your kid could be sitting right next to you,

543
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 5: but you're not with them at all. And so I

544
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: think that fundamentally technology is taking us out of these

545
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 5: things that are really important for us. Whereas if you

546
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 5: go out on a hunt with your friend or your

547
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 5: son or daughter, what happens all of a sudden you're outside.

548
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 5: There's a million reasons why being outside is good for us.

549
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 5: Some of them we don't fully understand. We just know

550
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: that all the data says that being outside is really

551
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 5: good for us too.

552
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: You're having to move your body.

553
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 5: That's very good for us. Best thing you can do

554
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 5: long term for your health, and longevy is moving. You're

555
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 5: also with the other person, right, and you're not just

556
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 5: with them b yesing, you're on a quest together that's

557
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 5: really important. The quest is to this like goal of

558
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 5: finding a buck, right. Humans are most happy and engaged

559
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 5: when we have a goal or a mission to accomplish.

560
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 5: Even if you don't get along with the person, if

561
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 5: you put two people on a mission together, that'll repair

562
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 5: relationship really best. And there's actually data that suggests this

563
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 5: insert like twenty to thirty other really good things that

564
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 5: are happening in that environment. So I think the fundamental

565
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 5: issue as technology is taken over, which don't get me wrong,

566
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 5: it's had a ton of upsides, but is that it's

567
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 5: removed us from the things that make us most well.

568
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: So then the question I think for me and everyone

569
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 5: else becomes, Okay, how can I get back to those

570
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 5: rhythms that humans you still live and exist in for

571
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 5: all of time? But also I'm not telling people to go,

572
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 5: you know, build a yurt and hunting fish for all

573
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: of their food. But it is like, how do you

574
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 5: how do you find small ways to weave that into

575
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 5: your daily life every single day, whether it's just like

576
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 5: a walk on the trail by your house with your

577
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 5: kid or your spouse, and then also in bigger things

578
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 5: like your you know, your annual hunt, your insert whatever

579
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 5: it might be.

580
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like a lot of a lot of

581
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: this for me echoes an idea within conservation. There's this

582
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: idea of rewilding, and so in many places across the world,

583
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: we've lost wildlife species that used to exist in that region,

584
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: and there's a growing movement now rather than just trying

585
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: to stop the bleeding where species are disappearing, they're actually

586
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: trying to rewild areas, so bring back these native species

587
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: that used to exist on the landscape. And I feel

588
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: like a lot of what you've prescribed, and a lot

589
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: of what some of these other people have talked about

590
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: is almost like rewilding our lives. I've thought a lot about,

591
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: like my general philosophy of this, and much of what

592
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: I've taken from the Comfort Crisis, from your other writing

593
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: is like ways to bring back our wild past, our

594
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: evolutionary history. What it means to be human if you

595
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: want to keep it a little simpler and bring that

596
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: back into us, make us wild again, make us human again.

597
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: I think that's a big part of why hunters and

598
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: anglers love doing this and being a part of this

599
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: and having that lifestyle. And I think, you know, many

600
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: of these other things that can help us deal with

601
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: modernity in general all kind of tie back to that

602
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: kind of rewilding idea. But one thing I've noticed is

603
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: that even when doing the right things, like you talked about,

604
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: you've written about the importance of nature, the many different

605
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: benefits of being outside. Right, there's all sorts of studies

606
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: that you've referenced about, you know, the ways that sounds

607
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: and smells and fractals and all these different things give

608
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: us real physiological benefits, right, And hunters and anglers have

609
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: stumbled on this, and we have, accidentally, you know, in

610
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: many ways, built a life around being outside. And that's great,

611
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: and we're all benefiting from it. But even those of

612
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: us who do this stuff, we're still bringing in this

613
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: outside world. And I remember reading that there's this idea,

614
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: the three day effect that you talked about, which is like,

615
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: after three days in the back country, it's like a

616
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: mental re there's something really special that happens after three

617
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: days in the wild in the back country, right, both

618
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: of us have experienced that. But then a very important

619
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: qualifier was including that, which is that if you have

620
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: your phone, it negates that. And I'm curious if you

621
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: can expand on that a little bit because I feel

622
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: like there's an epidemic of phone use by hunters too.

623
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: And I've like there's memes that go around. There's like,

624
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: you know, people saying, like what hunting was, and you know,

625
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: the year nineteen fifty was somebody actually out there hunting.

626
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: What hunting is in twenty twenty five is a guy

627
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: sitting in a tree looking at you know, Instagram reels

628
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: for four hours. So how does introducing our phones and

629
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: in time to our outdoor pursuits maybe changing the benefits,

630
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: changing the experience, pulling away from what's actually supposed to be.

631
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, big picture is that you're not actually hunting, you're

632
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 5: on your phone.

633
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: Right.

634
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 5: So there's some interesting studies and they there's a lot

635
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 5: of these. A short term one was at the University

636
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 5: of Utah. They took people to this outdoor area outside

637
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 5: of Salt Lake City and they had one group do

638
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 5: a hike, they couldn't use their phone at all. They

639
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 5: had another group take the hike, but they could use

640
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 5: their phone. They could call people, they could look at it,

641
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 5: whatever the hell they wanted to do. And when they

642
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 5: got back, they measured stress levels attention levels of the

643
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 5: two groups, and the people who were on their phone

644
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: saw no benefits, whereas the people who weren't on their

645
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 5: phone couldn't use their phone, their stress levels had gone

646
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 5: down significantly, their attention levels had been restored.

647
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: Focus was much better.

648
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 5: All these different markers improved, and then the longer term studies,

649
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 5: like the three day effect, same thing happens. If a

650
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 5: person is using their phone for a lot of the

651
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 5: time outdoors, it just sort of negates all the benefits

652
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 5: that you get from that, and it goes back to attention.

653
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 5: So if I'm in the wilderness and I'm paying attention,

654
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 5: i don't have my phone, your brain goes into this

655
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 5: mode that researchers call and this is a terrible name.

656
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 5: It should never allow scientists to come up with names.

657
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 5: It's called soft fascination. And what you can think about

658
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 5: it is it's sort of like sort of like a

659
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 5: form of meditation, but with meditation, you're kind of going inward.

660
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: It's almost an outward meditation where you're sort of lightly

661
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 5: focusing on all this stuff around, this natural stuff, and

662
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 5: that does really good things for the brain. Once you

663
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 5: insert a phone, not only are you taking yourself out

664
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 5: of that, but what are you looking at on your phone?

665
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 5: If you're on Instagram reels, you're like, Okay, here's a

666
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 5: fight video that's going to stress me out. Here's some

667
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 5: political video that's going to stress me out. Here's some

668
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 5: news about all the terrible things happening in the world

669
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 5: that's going to stress me out. And so you're just

670
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 5: adding this outside stressor and while not getting all the benefits. Now,

671
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 5: I think that there's a balance to be found. So,

672
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 5: for example, I did this. It's about eight hundred and

673
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 5: fifty mile route in southern Utah in the spring last year.

674
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 5: It takes about forty five days. Now, I could have

675
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 5: carried in all these topo maps right, but now I'm

676
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 5: not going to do that, like so many damn maps,

677
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 5: so heavy.

678
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 3: So I brought my.

679
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 5: Phone and I used a GPS mapping application for that.

680
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 5: So I had to be on my phone occasionally out there,

681
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 5: but I didn't have service. I didn't download anything. I

682
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 5: didn't download pods, even yours.

683
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

684
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 5: I didn't download a bunch of music and stuff. I

685
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 5: only use my phone when I really needed to use it,

686
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 5: and I also asked myself, do I really need to

687
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 5: use this phone? So, for example, when you navigate, you

688
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 5: can do it two ways. You can stare down at

689
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 5: the thing and look at the blue dot and follow

690
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 5: the line the whole time, or you can actually pull

691
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 5: back and read the map and go, Okay, here's where

692
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 5: I am situated in this landscape.

693
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 3: If I look, oh, I can see a bluff over there.

694
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 5: Looks like I just kind of need to walk toward

695
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 5: that bluff, and it might be five miles. I don't

696
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 5: need to look at my phone. I just know I

697
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 5: generally need to go in that direction, and so that

698
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 5: way I can pay attention. So I think there's a

699
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 5: good balance to be found with technology because it can

700
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 5: absolutely help us. I know, like apps like on x

701
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 5: really help a lot of hunters. But the question is

702
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 5: how reliant are you going to be on that? How

703
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 5: much of your attention are you focusing on that? And

704
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 5: can you sort of just use it to the minimum

705
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 5: effective dose that you need to users as a use

706
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 5: it as a tool rather than it sort of using you.

707
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: So on that line of thinking of the technology using you,

708
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: I feel like the best example that might be social media. Right,

709
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: can you expand a little bit on just how and

710
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: why social media can be still particularly dangerous or toxic

711
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: slash addicting? Spell that out a little bit for us.

712
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 5: I'll give you a surprising answer for the same exact

713
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 5: reason hunting is addicting. So social media works on random rewards.

714
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 5: Random rewards capture the attention of every single animal, always have. Now,

715
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 5: the difference is social media is able to really tweak

716
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 5: that random reward schedule to get it to the perfect,

717
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,919
Speaker 5: perfect amount of random rewards that keep us coming back.

718
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: And it's also very accessible.

719
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 5: So in my book Scarcity Debrain, I talk about this

720
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 5: thing called the scarcity loop, and it's the ultimate vehicle

721
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 5: for capturing human attention. And so I'm going to unpack

722
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 5: it's a little bit complicated, but bear with me. It's

723
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 5: got three parts. It's got opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick,

724
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 5: quick repeatability. So opportunity, you have an opportunity to get

725
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 5: something of value, unpredictable rewards. You know you'll get that

726
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 5: thing at some point, but you don't know when. You

727
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 5: don't know how valuable it'll be. And quick repeatability you

728
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 5: can immediately do the thing again to try and get

729
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 5: that thing of value. So with social media, if you

730
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 5: unpack that, it's opportunity. I might see a hilarious reel

731
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 5: or a reel that makes me pissed off about politics,

732
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 5: or I might get a like or a DM, but

733
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 5: it's unpredictable. You don't know when that's going to happen, right,

734
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 5: Could happen in half a second, could happen in thirty seconds.

735
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 5: You don't know how valuable it's going to be. Is

736
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 5: it like a DM that's from someone I don't really

737
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 5: know this person, that's a random request I don't like it.

738
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 3: Or is it like a.

739
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 5: DM being like, hey, come on my podcast and blah

740
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 5: blah blah, and then you can recheck and recheck and recheck.

741
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: So it just points you into this book.

742
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 5: Right, And it's because it's on your person all the time. Now,

743
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 5: hunting works on the exact same schedule. Yeah, opportunity. You

744
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: have an opportunity to kill a giant buck, but it's unpredictable.

745
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,479
Speaker 5: You don't know where the hell it is. You don't

746
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 5: know when you're going to see it. You don't know

747
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 5: if that oh I might have seen a buck, I

748
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 5: don't know if it's a was it actually dough or.

749
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: Was it that giant buck I got on my camera?

750
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 5: And then you just repeat that. Right, you're out there

751
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 5: and you're searching and searching for that buck. It's the

752
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 5: exact same schedule that makes both of those activities so addicting.

753
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 5: But what's happening in the meantime When you're hunting, you're outside,

754
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 5: you're moving around, you're often with friends, Like all these

755
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 5: good things are happening as you're in aged in that

756
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 5: three part game, as it were, Whereas with social you're

757
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 5: sitting at home, you're not doing anything. The stuff that's

758
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 5: coming into you is often making you ramped up, anxious,

759
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 5: anxietiss and you're not doing all these things that make

760
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 5: you better as a person. So the big question is,

761
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 5: you know, with these sort of games that we get

762
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 5: pulled into and they're everywhere, Like basically I can tell

763
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 5: you if listeners open their phone and look at the

764
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 5: apps they spend the most time on, I will guarantee

765
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 5: that they fall into that scarcity loop, whether it's email,

766
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 5: whether it's sports betting, whether it's of course social media,

767
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 5: whether it's even finance apps, the exact same thing. But

768
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 5: the question is I lost my train of thought a

769
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 5: little bit. But the question is, is that three part game,

770
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 5: that scarcity loop doing things that are helping you in

771
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 5: the meantime rather than hurting you?

772
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: And I wonder, you know, given that, you know, what

773
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: do you you know in the case that there's positive

774
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: scarcity loops and there's negative scarcity loops like you mentioned,

775
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: and so in these ones, you know, like social media,

776
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 2: that seems so you know, so clear to so many

777
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: of us that there's these obvious negatives to it. But

778
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: for most of us, we kind of just fell into it.

779
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: We started using social media fifteen years ago or twenty

780
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: years ago or whatever, when everybody got a Facebook account,

781
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: and then the next thing was like, oh well, you

782
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: got to get an Instagram account, and then oh yeah,

783
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: you got to be on Twitter, and then oh yeah,

784
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: you got to get on TikTok, and you're just kind

785
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: of doing it and using it, and then all of

786
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: a sudden, you said this earlier, it starts to use

787
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: you and we don't even realize it. But it becomes

788
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: a compulsion. It becomes this thing that you're doing, and

789
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 2: you don't know why you're doing it. It doesn't bring

790
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: you all that much value. And then to your point,

791
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, all this time goes by and

792
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: you have nothing to show for it, and you write

793
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 2: about this and scarcity brain, the fact that there's Yeah,

794
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: this isn't happening by chance. This is not random. This

795
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: is highly engineered by people using very you know, seriously

796
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: researched practices to take advantage of our psychology to do this,

797
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: to hijack our brains to do this. So we're up

798
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: against like a serious challenge here. It's not just that

799
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: we are like weak minded people. It's also that people

800
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: are using very sophisticated like weaponizing of this stuff that

801
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: we think is like a fun little thing for us

802
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: to look at. But instead there's people on the other

803
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: side who are really gearing this to suck us in.

804
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: How do you break out of that? How do we

805
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: reclaim some kind of control.

806
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that just for context, why we fall into

807
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 5: this this system, the reason we're attracted to it is

808
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 5: evolved out of hunting and hunting and gathering in our ancestors.

809
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 5: Like I said, hunting is hunting and gathering. It is

810
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 5: fundamentally a random awards game, and if humans weren't inherently

811
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 5: attracted to that and willing to keep playing it all day.

812
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: We would have all died off today.

813
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 5: Though it gets put into like you said, all these

814
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 5: different technologies, and in the book, I actually talk about

815
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 5: how we really started to figure out how to tweak

816
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 5: it perfectly for the desires of corporations in Las Vegas

817
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 5: in the eighties. It's crazy story, But how do you

818
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 5: get out of it? Like I said, there's three parts,

819
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 5: and if you just remove or change any of the

820
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 5: three parts, you can fix it. So for me, the

821
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 5: biggest part that's relatively easy to tweak is that quick repeatability.

822
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 5: So the faster you can do a behavior, the more

823
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 5: likely you are to do a behavior. If we had

824
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 5: to say, run a mile to check our Instagram, no

825
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 5: one would check their damn Instagram like ever, So I

826
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 5: think the question is how do you add friction into

827
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 5: getting into Instagram or your apps, or turning on Netflix

828
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 5: or whatever it might be that's hurting you. How do

829
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 5: you how can you slow down that process? So on

830
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 5: cell phones, and I realized it's ironic to tell people

831
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 5: to download an app so they can use other apps less.

832
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 5: There's a great app that's helped a lot of people.

833
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 5: It's called clear Space, and what it does is you

834
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 5: pick the apps that you want to limit. Let's say

835
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 5: you pick Twitter. When you go to open Twitter, clear

836
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 5: space makes you pause, take a breath in, take a

837
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 5: breath out. Then it asks you, do you actually want

838
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 5: to use this app? Because a lot of times we

839
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 5: just pull out our phone like reflexively to check whatever

840
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 5: app it is we're addicted to. And then once you

841
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 5: say yes, I would actually like to check Twitter, it

842
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 5: asks you how long do you actually want to stay

843
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 5: in Twitter?

844
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: And it gives you options.

845
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 5: You can you know, you can set up for five minutes,

846
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 5: ten minutes, twenty minutes, so you pick ten minutes. Because

847
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 5: the problem is we'll often go open Twitter to go, oh,

848
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 5: I need to respond to that direct message, or I

849
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 5: want to see what Mark Kenyon has tweeted about this

850
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 5: season's hunting, and then we often just start scrolling into

851
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 5: all this southern nonsense. In an hour has gone by.

852
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 5: So by limiting the time, you're forced to kind of

853
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 5: do what you actually want to do. So I think

854
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 5: that's a good use for bones. But also, I mean,

855
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 5: people get like the scarcity loop isn't shopping. One of

856
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 5: the reasons people buy so much crap now is because

857
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 5: it's so easy and fast to buy stuff. So if

858
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 5: you can even tell yourself, all right, this thing I

859
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 5: think I want, I'm going to put it in my cart,

860
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 5: my online shopping cart, and I'm going to wait seventy

861
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 5: two hours, I'm going to slow this down.

862
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 3: You'll buy way less.

863
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 5: Stuff, like so much less stuff because so much is

864
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 5: this stuff is just on board. I was online, Oh

865
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 5: I saw this, Yeah, I'll buy it. You insert a

866
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 5: little bit of time and friction, purchasing tends to go down.

867
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 5: And so the question is, with any behavior you have

868
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 5: that is something you're compulsively doing that's hurting you, how

869
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 5: can I slow it down?

870
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,439
Speaker 2: So I want to circle back to to I guess

871
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 2: a little bit more of One of the best ways

872
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 2: to slow things down is to get outside. Is to

873
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: insert this big pause in normal life, everyday life, by

874
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: experiencing nature, which again I know a lot of people

875
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: that's like a big thing for them to go out

876
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: and do anything right. Getting there twenty minutes. You know,

877
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: three times a week is like a stretch goal. You know,

878
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: asking someone to go out in the back country for

879
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: three days a month or a year is like a

880
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: big deal for some people. For folks listening to this podcast,

881
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: it's not that big of the deal. It's what we

882
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: want to do. But you have recommended something that's even

883
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: beyond that, which I loved when we talked about last time,

884
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: and I've thought about it since and then kind of

885
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: forgot about. And then when I reread your book recently,

886
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: was reminded of And that's the Massagi idea, this idea

887
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: of pushing you know, we talked earlier about pushing yourself,

888
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: having goals and everything, and is that a good thing

889
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: or can that sometimes get you out of focus of

890
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 2: why you love something? But there does seem to be

891
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: this benefit to kind of pushing the edges of the possible.

892
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: And I'm curious over the last five years or so

893
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: since you I think I think you can be widely

894
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: credited with popularizing that idea. It's really caught on. Where's

895
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 2: your head on this? I guess for people who aren't familiar,

896
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: what is it? Number two? Where are you now? Five

897
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: years into this as it's grown, and as people have

898
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: been increasingly coming to you to talk about this, and

899
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: you've been talking about it, and I guess where what

900
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 2: are your best practices now, five years after you first

901
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: brought this idea out to the world, give us that.

902
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 3: I guess yeah.

903
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 5: So a masogi easiest way to think about it is

904
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 5: it a big epic challenge that you take on once

905
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 5: a year for the sake of growth. There's two rules.

906
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 5: Make it really hard, don't die. So the second rule,

907
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 5: it is kind of tongue in cheek, just be safe.

908
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 5: But the first rule we define by saying you should

909
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 5: have a fifty to fifty shot of accomplishing whatever your

910
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 5: masogi task is. So the fifty to fifty shot that

911
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: means two things. One is that everyone's fifty to fifty

912
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 5: is going to be different.

913
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: Right.

914
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 5: Let's say that my masogi is I'm going to run

915
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 5: fifty miles. Well, the lady down the street from me,

916
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 5: who's you know, sixty seven years old, first might be

917
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 5: to run ten miles. But we're still going to do

918
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 5: something that we think we only have a fifty percent

919
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 5: shot of doing. And the fifty percent shot part second

920
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 5: part of this is that it's really important because it

921
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 5: means you have a really high chance of failure. And today,

922
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 5: when we take on challenges, we often pick things that

923
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 5: are well within the range of possibilities, like ninety percent.

924
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 5: Sure we're going to acomplish this thing. But the problem

925
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 5: is is we don't ever get pushed out to our edge.

926
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 5: So whether you actually accomplish this thing or not is irrelevant.

927
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 5: The point is that you want to meet this point

928
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 5: where you think you are going to fail this. You're like,

929
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 5: I'm done, I can't go any further. But if you

930
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 5: can just push a little bit past that, just keep pushing,

931
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 5: you get this second moment where you realize, well, wait

932
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 5: a minute, I'm past what I thought was my limit

933
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 5: back there. So I've sold myself short here, and then

934
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 5: the important question becomes where else in my life could

935
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 5: I be selling myself short? So I'm a firm believer

936
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 5: that humans don't learn through sitting around thinking all the time.

937
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 3: Right.

938
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 5: We can intellectually understand a lot of concepts in our brain,

939
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 5: but they don't actually stick until we get out in

940
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 5: the world and we actually experience them. And the massogi

941
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 5: teaches you through experience, you're probably a lot more capable

942
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 5: then you think, and that changes your worldview afterwards. So

943
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 5: then to follow up on the second part of your

944
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 5: question is how has my thinking evolved on this? Yeah,

945
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 5: I think a couple things. I think when I first

946
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 5: wrote about it, like the book really focused on physical things.

947
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 5: I don't think masogis always have to be physical. So

948
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 5: let's say you took a I don't know someone who's

949
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 5: into ultra ultra marathon running right, A tendency for that

950
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 5: person would would be, Okay, I'm gonna my masogi is

951
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 5: a fifty miler. Oh, I completed that. Now I'm going

952
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 5: to do one hundred miles. Completed that, Now I'm going

953
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 5: to do two hundred miles. And it just becomes this

954
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 5: arms race. It's like you kind of know you're going

955
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 5: to do it, and it sounds to me like you're

956
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 5: actually pretty good at running. That's a strong spot for you.

957
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 5: So for me, what if that person your masogis you

958
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 5: have to go do a meditation retreat for twenty four

959
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 5: hours because a lot of times these endurance types they

960
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 5: just can't sit still. I always got to be moving.

961
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 5: So it's like the question becomes what is the thing

962
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 5: that really scares me that I'm not doing and how

963
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 5: can I try that, because I'll tend to peel away

964
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 5: new layers of the onion that you haven't explored. And again,

965
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 5: I mean, this could really be anything. I was given

966
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 5: a talk one time and I talked about this masogi

967
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 5: idea of my talk, and this woman came up to

968
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 5: me afterwards and she said, hey, I read your book

969
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 5: and I did a masogi.

970
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, great, what was it?

971
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 4: Was?

972
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 3: My masogi? I was trying sushi.

973
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 5: I was like, really, tell me about that, you know,

974
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 5: and she goes all my life I had all like

975
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 5: a fear of different foods, especially sushi, just like, oh,

976
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 5: I can't do that. I'm just you know, because I

977
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 5: tried it, because I didn't love it, but also didn't

978
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 5: hate it.

979
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 3: It was totally fine.

980
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 5: And it made me realize that I had all these

981
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 5: irrational fears that I'd never tested, and that opened the

982
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 5: door for me to start questioning, Okay, what are this

983
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 5: other laundry list of heres?

984
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 3: Is this rational?

985
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 5: Is this? We're trying and experiencing and seeing what I think,

986
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 5: and that is what we're after that big opening of

987
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 5: the door of our thoughts, how we see ourselves how

988
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 5: we think about the world.

989
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: That's really what we're going for.

990
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: What's been the most impactful masogi you've experienced yourself.

991
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question.

992
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 5: I mean, I think probably my Arctic trip qualifies as

993
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 5: one that was really I hadn't been hunting. I'd never

994
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 5: killed an animal with a weapon besides my Nissan Ultimate

995
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 5: in high school in an unfortunate accident, and that really

996
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 5: sort of changed my thinking around the food system. I

997
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 5: think that happens for a lot of hunters, so that

998
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 5: one had a lot of these moments that just changed

999
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 5: my thinking about things and affected my behavior moving forward.

1000
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 5: And I think too, probably more recently, as that hike

1001
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 5: I just did. I mean, I didn't enter it thinking

1002
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 5: it was a masogi, But the reality is is probably

1003
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 5: wasn't masogi. Because I didn't, I probably had a ten

1004
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 5: percent chance of finishing it. I won't tell you if

1005
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 5: I finished it or not. You can learn that in

1006
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 5: the book when it comes out, and whoever the hell

1007
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 5: knows how long. But I think it changed a lot

1008
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 5: of my thinking around what I was capable of, and

1009
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 5: also how we should think about living in the modern world,

1010
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 5: and also friendship. I did it with a friend and

1011
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 5: I've always been one of those people who, you know,

1012
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 5: I like people, but only in smallish and fleeting clusters

1013
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 5: more or less. And that was like, you know what, dude, Like,

1014
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 5: maybe you need to go go out and hang out

1015
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 5: with people more time. Like you really got a lot

1016
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 5: out of this, and I think that just changed my

1017
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 5: perspetition perception about some of the social stuff in my life.

1018
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: Have you figured out how to harness or how do

1019
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: you take something like that? How do you have an experience?

1020
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: And for so many of us, we have these things,

1021
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 2: We have these transcendent experiences, oftentimes in wild and then

1022
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: wild places right awe is something that seems to be

1023
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: really important to humans. It's something that comes in spades

1024
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: in the wild world. It often, you know, doing hard

1025
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 2: things often inspires like you just said, reflection and self

1026
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: kind of understanding. How do you carry that forward? Like,

1027
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: how do you take that and not just let it

1028
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 2: slip away over the next week or two, but instead

1029
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 2: somehow bottle that up and use it for the rest

1030
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 2: of your life. Have you figured that out? Do you

1031
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: have any idea?

1032
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 5: That's the great question. I mean, Joseph Campbell wrote about this.

1033
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 5: You had a quote, It's like you get up to

1034
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 5: a height and then your question becomes do I stay

1035
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 5: with that or do I return and back to normal life.

1036
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 5: So in the Hero's Journey, there's typically I assume people

1037
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 5: are somewhat familiar with the Hero's Journey, but it's basically

1038
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 5: someone goes out into this really trying environment, encounters these

1039
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 5: challenges like a big adventure, and it fundamentally changes their

1040
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 5: self concept and they have these you know, peak experiences,

1041
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,919
Speaker 5: and there's always there's two paths. It's like the hero

1042
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 5: either stays out in this wild world or they have

1043
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 5: to return back to their normal life and figure out, Okay,

1044
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 5: how do I stay with this thing? And it's not easy,

1045
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 5: and I think most of us are going to be

1046
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 5: returning back.

1047
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 3: To the normal world. So for me, I think it's.

1048
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 5: I think when you first get back from something, whether

1049
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 5: it's like a big hunt or whatever it might be,

1050
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 5: that changes you. The lessons and the feelings are really

1051
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 5: kind of intense, but they fade over time naturally the

1052
00:56:55,719 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 5: longer you stay in normal life. And for me, it's

1053
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 5: always trying to bring to mind what did I learn

1054
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 5: on that, and then making sure I have new things

1055
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 5: on the horizon, you know, It's like you can re

1056
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 5: up that every year if you go out and you

1057
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 5: do something interesting that changes you and finding new things

1058
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 5: to do. I think the big takeaway is how can

1059
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 5: I add adventure back into my life, both big and small?

1060
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 5: What am I doing yearly? But what am I doing weekly?

1061
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot of ways to spend a weekend.

1062
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 5: You can hang around and watch Netflix, so you can

1063
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 5: be like, hey, family, get in the truck. I saw

1064
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 5: this place on the map. Looks kind of interesting. I

1065
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 5: don't know anything about it, but that's the point.

1066
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 3: Let's go.

1067
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 5: And so it's having to constantly do something. I think

1068
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 5: it's easy in modern life to get kind of caught

1069
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 5: in the exact same routine and people start to have

1070
00:57:55,120 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 5: these kind of feelings of restlessness discontent. Okay, what's the point.

1071
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 5: But you can sort of break that up by getting

1072
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 5: out of your routine and doing something new and interesting

1073
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 5: and adventurous and continuing that over time. That's helped me anyways.

1074
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, there's this guy's names I I of

1075
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: get his last name wrong, Jesse Eisler. I think or

1076
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 2: Ike's like, you know, you know, Jesse. He's all over

1077
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: the place and he has this rule that he got

1078
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: from some friend of his, where he basically says, I'm

1079
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 2: going to get the specifics run. But I think every

1080
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,439
Speaker 2: single year he does one thing basically a masogi every year,

1081
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: like one thing that he never thought would be possible,

1082
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: some crazy, big adventure of some kind. And then once

1083
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: every other month he tries to do something that he

1084
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 2: never would have thought he would do, just like something

1085
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: out of the ordinary, something outside of his comfort zone.

1086
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: And basically what the idea is like, Hey, if you

1087
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 2: live a life like that where once every year you

1088
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: do some really big adventure and then every other month

1089
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 2: you're doing something outside of your comfort zone, one of

1090
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: those things will stand out. You know, when we go

1091
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 2: outside of the normal, those are the memories that stick

1092
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 2: with us. Those are the experiences that form a life.

1093
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 2: It's typically not just sitting and watching Netflix. Right, So

1094
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: if you do that, you build a very full, rich life,

1095
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: which I think is which I think falls right in

1096
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: line with a lot of what you're saying here now

1097
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: with that goal, I guess out there, I've recognized one

1098
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: challenge in my own life in trying to live this way,

1099
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: which is my daily life. Like you, in many ways

1100
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: of sitting in a computer and writing right taping on

1101
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 2: the keyboard, or recording podcasts or doing stuff in an office,

1102
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: which increasingly more and more of us are. So we're

1103
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 2: very sedentary for large parts of our lives. And then

1104
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 2: ever once in a while, whether it be every weekend

1105
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: doing a smaller thing, or a handful times a year

1106
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 2: doing some big back country trip like ILL have. Like

1107
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 2: maybe I'm lucky I get to do more than most.

1108
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 2: I might have three or four or five or six

1109
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 2: like big, very intense backpacking trips or big hunts or

1110
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: something like that where you're carrying a lot of weight

1111
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: and you're doing really strenuous things. It's it's intense. So

1112
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 2: my life goes from like very sedentary to very intense.

1113
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 2: And I've gotten very good at having a consistent cardio base,

1114
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: but not as well with my strength base for that,

1115
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 2: and I have had, you know, injuries because of that.

1116
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: I have had problems where I've jumped from you know, thinking, yeah,

1117
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 2: I'm in pretty good shape. I run a ton and

1118
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: do a lot of this stuff, and I go and

1119
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: do this big, intense thing and I'm not quite ready

1120
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: for that. You have popularized another idea that I think

1121
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 2: addresses this for a lot of people, which is the

1122
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 2: very simple but seemingly powerful idea of walking with weight.

1123
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 2: It seems like that might be a solution to what

1124
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: many people today, especially hunters and anglers, are dealing with,

1125
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: and that they're probably working some kind of office job,

1126
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: relatively sedentary, and then all of a sudden they want

1127
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 2: to go out for their weekend, or they're once a

1128
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: month or once a year big adventure hunting or fishing,

1129
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 2: going somewhere and maybe aren't quite ready for Tell me

1130
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 2: about how walking with weight might be a solution for

1131
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: that kind of lifestyle. Why that's so powerful?

1132
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the short answer and I'll say, in

1133
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 5: the comfort crisis, I use the word rocking. It's basically

1134
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 5: walking with a weighted backpack. I've started to shift to

1135
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 5: the term walking with weight because when I would tell

1136
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 5: women about rocking and that they should do it, rocking

1137
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 5: is a military term, so when they'd google it, they'd

1138
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 5: see these special forces dudes with these giant backpacks and go, yeah.

1139
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 3: That is not for me.

1140
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 5: But the reality is is that humans are built to

1141
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 5: carry weight over distance. We are the only mammal that

1142
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 5: can do that. We are uniquely good at carrying weight

1143
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 5: for distance, and it totally shaped us into who we

1144
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 5: are today, allowed us to take over the world, but

1145
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 5: we often don't do it anymore. And I think the

1146
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 5: reason it's so particularly good for backcountry hunters and anglers

1147
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 5: is you're building strength while also getting cardio. So if

1148
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 5: you are too skinny, it'll help put some muscle on

1149
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 5: your fame. If you're too if you have too much fat,

1150
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,439
Speaker 5: you have too much muscle, it'll lean you out because

1151
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 5: you actually don't want too much muscle when you're covering

1152
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 5: a lot of ground.

1153
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 3: Because it's just extra weight you have to carry.

1154
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 5: So it's kind of this dual activity that hits both

1155
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 5: strength and cardio at the same time. And of course

1156
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 5: it's very applicable to the pack out right. That is

1157
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 5: exactly what you're doing when you have to pack out

1158
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 5: an animal. And I think too, it's nice because it's

1159
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 5: very approachable. A lot of people run, it's great. A

1160
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 5: lot of people also get injured by running. So the

1161
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 5: data on this is everywhere, but anywhere from I think

1162
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 5: twenty to I think seventy five percent of runners get

1163
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 5: injured every single year. It's a lot of people, a

1164
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 5: lot of injuries but when you walk with weight, the

1165
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 5: injury rate is basically like that of walking, rises as

1166
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 5: you add more weight. But I think if you're walking

1167
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 5: with anywhere from ten to say, thirty percent of your

1168
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 5: body weight, like you're probably not going to get injured,

1169
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 5: and you're going to build a really good base of

1170
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 5: strength that's going to apply to the mountains and the

1171
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 5: streams wherever you might be. That's gonna make you a

1172
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 5: lot more physically prepared for the activities of backcentry hunting.

1173
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 2: So one of the pushbacks I've internally had to it

1174
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 2: has been like an ROI on my time. If I

1175
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 2: have an hour that I can devote to some kind

1176
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 2: of exercise, I could run. I don't know, in an hour,

1177
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to run five miles or something like that.

1178
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: I feel like that I'm going to get a really

1179
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 2: good workout and fire you know, five miles in or

1180
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: six miles in or whatever it is in that hour

1181
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 2: that feels like something. I'll really feel it afterwards, I'll

1182
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: work up a good sweat, et cetera. But with an

1183
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 2: hour hike, you know, I'm only going to go two

1184
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 2: and a half miles or three miles or something. It

1185
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like I'm going as far, it doesn't seem

1186
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: as high output. Maybe do you have a sense in

1187
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 2: your new book, I know you've charted out some of this.

1188
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 2: Could you speak to you know, how does like a

1189
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: run stack up to a ruck or walking with weight

1190
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: and how much weight do we need to get the

1191
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: same ROI out of that hour if we're walking with

1192
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: weight versus going for a trail run or something. Can

1193
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: you is there some way to kind of compare apples

1194
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: to oranges?

1195
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 4: There?

1196
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the way you would compare it if you

1197
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 5: just want to think about it as energy burned i e.

1198
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: Calories.

1199
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 5: So when you add weight to your walk, you start

1200
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 5: to burn anywhere from twenty to as much as say,

1201
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 5: two times more calories per mile when you add weight.

1202
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 5: Out of course, that number change is based on the

1203
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 5: amount of weight you have, So effectively, the more weight

1204
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 5: that you add, and I do tell people keep it

1205
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 5: under thirty percent of your body weight. That's usually kind

1206
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 5: of the cut off point where some bad things can

1207
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 5: start to happen if you go over thirty percent. But

1208
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 5: you're not going to be burning that much less calories

1209
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 5: by walking with weight. And the important thing is too

1210
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 5: you've just told me, Yeah, my endurance is good, but

1211
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 5: I'm sucky at strength. It's like, okay, well, so you're

1212
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 5: gonna go do more endurance and do less strength work,

1213
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 5: like if you want to balance this out. So I

1214
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,479
Speaker 5: would never tell people, hey, don't ever run, no matter

1215
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 5: who you are, if you're a hunter, no matter you know,

1216
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 5: whatever thing you're into. But I do think adding some

1217
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 5: walking with weight in can't help round out a lot

1218
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 5: of your fitness. I said, caring weight is a fundamental

1219
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 5: human movement pattern that we don't do now, and once

1220
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 5: we start to do it, it tends to fix a

1221
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 5: lot of the issues that modern people tend to have

1222
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 5: just because of desk work. Not to mention, you can

1223
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 5: just throw in a backpack whenever you're doing everyday stuff

1224
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 5: if you have to, Like if I have to take

1225
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 5: my dogs for a walk, I'm going to toss on

1226
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 5: a backpack and throw out a thirty pound backpack and

1227
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 5: take them for a walk. So now I've taken that

1228
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 5: walk from something pretty low level relaxing to now it's

1229
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 5: actually kind of in the workout zone. I would have

1230
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 5: to walk my dogs no matter what. So if I

1231
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 5: just toss on that pack, now I'm getting a lot

1232
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 5: more out of it. Or if you take a nightly

1233
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 5: walk with your wife. My friend John Deloney, who also

1234
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 5: has a pot podcast, does this. He was like, you know,

1235
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 5: my wife and I would always have these great conversations

1236
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 5: on our walks, but I always felt like I was

1237
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 5: taking time away from my workouts. You know, He's like, man,

1238
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 5: I just start throwing on a pack and now I'm like, Okay,

1239
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 5: I'm solid. I'm getting some work from this. And I

1240
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 5: would also say probably, you know, I'm not one of

1241
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 5: those people who's going to sit here and tell you

1242
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 5: that rocking walking with weight is the only thing you

1243
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 5: should do. I don't believe that at all. Humans are

1244
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 5: extremely versatile. I think you should run. I think you

1245
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 5: should rock. I think you should.

1246
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 3: Lift things, carry things.

1247
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 5: I think you should basically do everything because that's what

1248
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 5: the mountains ultimately demand of you. You're having to hike

1249
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 5: some sketchy terrain, you often have a pack on. You're

1250
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 5: taxing your cardio system, you're taxing your strength system. You're

1251
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 5: going to have to pick up some stuff and carry it.

1252
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 5: So you want to be doing everything if the mountains

1253
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 5: are demanding everything from you.

1254
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for people specifically looking to train for a

1255
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 2: backcountry hunt. You know, walking with weight is the prescription

1256
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. Right. There's a lot of different,

1257
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 2: you know, training plans that have been built out there.

1258
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 2: There's a lot of best practices that people expert hunters

1259
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 2: have have pitched and talked about and gyms promote. But

1260
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 2: I don't think any of these people have written an

1261
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: entire book all about the science and research behind walking

1262
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 2: with weight. You have which is coming out soon for

1263
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 2: somebody who is who is not just rucking to establish

1264
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 2: a fitness but is specifically walking with weight to train

1265
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 2: for a backcountry elk hunting trip or mule deer trip

1266
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 2: or caribou hunting trip or something like that. Excuse me,

1267
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 2: what is your what's your what are your best practices

1268
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 2: or recommended you know, ways to build out a plan

1269
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 2: to actually practice for that. So that's like, hey, I

1270
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 2: need to be ready to pack out one hundred pounds

1271
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,560
Speaker 2: and it might be ten miles over and over or

1272
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,480
Speaker 2: whatever might be. You've experienced it, what would you prescribe

1273
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 2: for that person in that situation.

1274
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 5: It's a great question. My first word is if a

1275
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 5: person had never rucked before, never walked with weight thrown

1276
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 5: weight in their pack is to start lighter than you think.

1277
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 5: Especially with guys, we tend to just low the thing

1278
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 5: up and then we get out We're like, this sucks,

1279
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 5: I hate this, my shoulders hurt, I'm never doing this again,

1280
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 5: and then we don't ever do it again. Yeah, So

1281
01:08:55,520 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 5: I tell people to on ramp slowly, start with say pounds,

1282
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 5: work your way up from there, and then find a

1283
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 5: weight eventually through trial and air that feels uncomfortable and

1284
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 5: challenging but also not soul crushing. You want to find

1285
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 5: a weight where you feel like you could just go

1286
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 5: for miles and miles and miles. Yes, it's hard, but

1287
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 5: you're gonna be able to accomplish it. So for me,

1288
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 5: like my go to is thirty pounds thirty five about

1289
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 5: and I feel like you can also push that every

1290
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 5: now and then, So sometimes I'll do say sixty something,

1291
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 5: because I know, okay, I might have to have a

1292
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 5: really heavy pack out if you just structure this across

1293
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 5: a week, if I was leading into a hunt season,

1294
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 5: I would probably want to do three days of rucking

1295
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 5: each week per se. I don't know an hour each time.

1296
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 5: And granted this goes back to the dog walking thing.

1297
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 5: It's like I have to walk my dogs anyway. I'm

1298
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 5: just throw my damn pack on. It's not even really lot.

1299
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 5: I've done an extra workout. Do three days of rocking

1300
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 5: with week. You might want one day where you're a

1301
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 5: little bit heavier to kind of get used to those

1302
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 5: heavier loads. Don't go above a thirtyier body weight. I

1303
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 5: don't think it's really worth it. You're not going to

1304
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 5: gain anymore when you go do that much heavier pack out.

1305
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 5: You'll help avoid injuries. Three days of rucking do say

1306
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 5: one day. If it were me, I would maybe do

1307
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 5: one day of long slow run, like really slow. You'd

1308
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 5: also do a bike something like that, and then I

1309
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 5: would want to do two days of strength training a week,

1310
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,560
Speaker 5: really focusing on lower body because in the mountains the

1311
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 5: legs feed the wolf. The mountains don't give a shit

1312
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 5: how big your biceps are. They really don't. So you

1313
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 5: want to do some heavy squats. You definitely want to

1314
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 5: be doing a lot of weighted carries like farmers walks,

1315
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 5: suitcase carries, things like that.

1316
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 3: Upper body stuff that uses a lot of your body.

1317
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 5: So for example, a bench press, you're just lying on

1318
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 5: this thing you don't have to engage your core as much.

1319
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 5: You just sort of press, but a push up like

1320
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 5: you actually have to engage your core, and it's more

1321
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 5: realistic for like, oh I fell on the mountains, now

1322
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,559
Speaker 5: I need to like get up using my entire body.

1323
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 5: So really just trying to mimic, like what are the

1324
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 5: exercises that I'm going to be doing in the mountains.

1325
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 5: That's very vague. It's hard to like lay out an

1326
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 5: entire week of fitness, but I do think probably two

1327
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 5: days of strength training a week, three days are rucking,

1328
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 5: and then another day of some other type of cardio.

1329
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: Makes sense. You are in a you're in an interesting

1330
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 2: line of work, and I can relate to it, and

1331
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 2: that you have attacked a single problem or idea in

1332
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 2: book form, and I know that takes years and years

1333
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 2: before it finally comes out. So I'm sure you've worked

1334
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 2: on the comfort crisis for years behind the scenes, and

1335
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 2: then finally it came out in twenty twenty one or

1336
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 2: whatever it was, and then you talked about a bunch,

1337
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 2: but it had been like three or four years or

1338
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:07,520
Speaker 2: however long of that kind of marinating in your subconscious

1339
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 2: And then same thing with Scarcy of bring you. You

1340
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:11,679
Speaker 2: went off into the dark, and you work for years,

1341
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 2: and then you finally came out into the world with it,

1342
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 2: and then everybody wants to talk to you about that

1343
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 2: set of ideas. But you've already been working on for

1344
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 2: three years now. You're doing that with Walking with Weight.

1345
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: But oftentimes the thing that you just published is something

1346
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 2: that you're almost tired of already thinking about because you've

1347
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 2: been writing about it for so many years, right, yes, exactly.

1348
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 2: Even though nobody else realized that you've been thinking about

1349
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 2: this entire time, you have, and so you're almost sick

1350
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 2: of it. So you do this newsletter where you're talking

1351
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 2: about kind of this intersection of fitness and mental health

1352
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 2: and mindset and nutrition and all these different things. And

1353
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 2: you've written these books about kind of the intersection of

1354
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 2: all these different things. What right now are you actually

1355
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 2: not sick of talking talking about, not exhausted by, but

1356
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 2: genuinely most excited and fascinated about when it comes to

1357
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 2: the world that you were working What's this is? This

1358
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 2: is my last question for it. What's the one thing

1359
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 2: that you are the most full of, bestination by and

1360
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 2: excited about and that we could kind of leave off

1361
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 2: with one set of ideas around.

1362
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 5: That's a great question, and my answer will be somewhat

1363
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 5: unsatisfying because it's this next book I'm working on about

1364
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 5: that long hike I did and the book. I'll kind

1365
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:33,920
Speaker 5: of give you a preview without giving too much away.

1366
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 5: And I also don't want to talk too much because

1367
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 5: I'll say something that will get cut out of the

1368
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 5: book entirely.

1369
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 4: I know it is.

1370
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 3: So the book really looks at.

1371
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 5: I think we can all agree that the world has

1372
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 5: never been better if you look at it in the

1373
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 5: grand scheme of time and space. We're living twice as long,

1374
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 5: we have roofs over our head, vast majority of people

1375
01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 5: have ample food, we have climate can We have modern

1376
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 5: medicine that would make the gods jealous. We have instant

1377
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,799
Speaker 5: entertainment at our fingertips all the time. Things should be perfect,

1378
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 5: But when you look at mental health, things have never

1379
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 5: been worse than slow down trend despite things being perfect.

1380
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 5: And so why is that? And that's what the book

1381
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 5: gets into, and I think I think it goes back

1382
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 5: to some of what we've been talking about in this conversation,

1383
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 5: is that the world no longer forces our hand in

1384
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 5: a way and what actually makes people healthy and happy

1385
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 5: and feel alive is having your hand get forced and

1386
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 5: having a mission and having to figure shit out and

1387
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 5: being pressed up against and it can be hard in

1388
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 5: the short term, but you get through that and it

1389
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 5: teaches you something fundamental about being a person where you

1390
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 5: stand in the world, and about what it means to

1391
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 5: be alive. And as the world got better and more comfortable, yeah,

1392
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 5: it's been great because I can watch a thousand dog

1393
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 5: reels if I want, and modern medicine is amazing and

1394
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 5: all these things. It really is amazing what we have

1395
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 5: in the process lost these really fundamental things that make

1396
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 5: us happy and satisfied. And so to me, the answer,

1397
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 5: to sort of re quote myself from before, it's not, oh,

1398
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 5: I'm just going to go live in the woods like

1399
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 5: hell no, But it's what can I do in my

1400
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 5: day to day life that pushes back against that so

1401
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:24,360
Speaker 5: I can get the best of both worlds. So that's

1402
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 5: kind of what the book covers. And that's the I

1403
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 5: as I know you're down a rabbit hole with your

1404
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 5: book as well, that's the rabbit hole I've been down.

1405
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like a fascinating one, and it you know,

1406
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 2: it's almost back to the idea of like rewilding your life.

1407
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 2: I feel like is kind of part of the answer

1408
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 2: to many of those questions and many of the questions

1409
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 2: that a lot of us are asking. So I can't

1410
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 2: wait to see the new book when that one comes out.

1411
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 2: I've enjoyed every single one of the things you've written

1412
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 2: to this point. For those people who have not yet

1413
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,600
Speaker 2: picked up the books, and obviously the one that's going

1414
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 2: to be releasing here shortly, could you plug a quick

1415
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,559
Speaker 2: description of what those are, where they can find them,

1416
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:05,640
Speaker 2: how they can connect with you and your substack and

1417
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 2: all that.

1418
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, Probably the best place to find me is on

1419
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 5: my substack. It's called two percent. It's at two pct

1420
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 5: dot com. There's links to all the books there, and

1421
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 5: that's kind of where I publish about three times a week.

1422
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:21,719
Speaker 5: It's a lot of writing, but it allows me to

1423
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 5: think and get my ideas out, and that's probably the

1424
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 5: best place to find me.

1425
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 2: Perfect. I appreciate this time, Michael, I enjoyed it. I

1426
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 2: you know, as I've mentioned already, really appreciate your work

1427
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:34,960
Speaker 2: and what you're bringing into the world. So keep it up. Yeah,

1428
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:39,799
Speaker 2: try to stay sane in the midst of this book project,

1429
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 2: and I can't wait to circle back.

1430
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 3: Yeah you two likewise man, all right, and.

1431
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 2: That's going to do it for our episode today. Thanks

1432
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 2: for being a part of this community, were tuning in

1433
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,720
Speaker 2: today here. I hope this is a useful way to

1434
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 2: kick off the new year, giving you some ideas that can,

1435
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, come with you throughout twenty twenty six, help

1436
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 2: you as you start planning your next hunting season, or

1437
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 2: your next fishing trip or outdoor adventure, or maybe just

1438
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 2: your next regular day of life, because those sometimes need

1439
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 2: some pick me ups too, and some new ideas as well. So,

1440
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 2: without any more from me, thanks for being here, and

1441
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 2: until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.