WEBVTT - Listening Is Gretchen Whitmer’s Superpower

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.

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<v Speaker 1>Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Joe Biden appeared on

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<v Speaker 1>a Michigan stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and my

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<v Speaker 1>guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me.

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<v Speaker 1>They are the future of this country.

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<v Speaker 2>They're the people who are going to.

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<v Speaker 1>Many people took that to mean that he'd be one

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<v Speaker 1>term president. With his re election campaign and crisis. Coming

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<v Speaker 1>off a rough debate performance in June, some people are

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<v Speaker 1>scratching their heads, asking was the bridge going to take

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<v Speaker 1>this long to build? When I talked to just about

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<v Speaker 1>anyone about the future of politics, Gretchen Whitmer's name inevitably

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<v Speaker 1>comes up. Her leadership in Michigan has protected reproductive rights

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<v Speaker 1>and kept the state together through the darkest days of COVID,

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<v Speaker 1>during which she withstood some pretty nasty comments by then

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump. You'll hear more about that in a minute.

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<v Speaker 1>The Whitmer roots run deep in state politics. Her father

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<v Speaker 1>was a part of two Michigan governor's administrations. And her

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<v Speaker 1>grandfather was superintendent of schools when integration led to protests,

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<v Speaker 1>bus bombings, and kkk rallies. One of her family's mottos,

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<v Speaker 1>the Whitmers have quote, short memories and thick skins. Gretchen

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<v Speaker 1>also likes to say listening is a superpower. Those qualities

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<v Speaker 1>have helped her stay connected to her constituents and focus

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<v Speaker 1>on the big issues they care about. But in this

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<v Speaker 1>deeply divided country, she's face forces that don't want her

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<v Speaker 1>to succeed, and worse, she was the target of a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty harrowing kidnapping plot, which she also talks about in

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<v Speaker 1>our conversation. It's a bit of a cliche, I know,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think it's safe to say Gretchen Whitmer is

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<v Speaker 1>one to watch, part of the new generation of leaders

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<v Speaker 1>to whom the baton will be passed, and for those

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<v Speaker 1>who are angry about the so called garontocracy we have now,

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<v Speaker 1>she seems poised to take on an even bigger job

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<v Speaker 1>than the governor of Michigan. On a personal note, I

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<v Speaker 1>really enjoyed our time together. She is refreshingly candid and

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<v Speaker 1>easy to talk to, even when it comes to some

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<v Speaker 1>pretty embarrassing moments. Here's our conversation, recorded in Aspen, Colorado,

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<v Speaker 1>during the Ideas Festival. Gretchen Whitmer, Welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>We're doing this from Aspen, Colorado, a beautiful place, although

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<v Speaker 1>sadly it's raining a little today, but you'll have to

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<v Speaker 1>come back to Aspen and spend some time here.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love to I'd love to ski, so I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to come in the winter.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, you should. You should is fabulous here,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm a really terrible skier, so I can say

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<v Speaker 1>from my friends who know how to ski, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be talking. Governor whit Murphy, I call you Gretchen

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<v Speaker 1>because I kind of feel like Gretchen Katie is more comfortable.

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<v Speaker 1>You have written a book called True Gretch what I've

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<v Speaker 1>learned about life, leadership and everything in between. I'm curious,

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<v Speaker 1>why now, Why was this something you wanted to do

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<v Speaker 1>at this moment in time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one of the questions that I get asked the most,

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<v Speaker 2>whether I'm traveling in Michigan or outside of the state,

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<v Speaker 2>is with all the heavy stuff, the threats and the

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<v Speaker 2>ugliness and pandemics and flooding and protests, how do I

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<v Speaker 2>say positive? Why do I want to keep doing this job,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that this is a heavy year. People

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<v Speaker 2>are feeling lots of emotions, lots of strife and struggle,

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<v Speaker 2>and the political rhetoric is hot, and I thought, if

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<v Speaker 2>I can put something light out into the world, right now,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it's all about. So these are ten things

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<v Speaker 2>I've learned over the course of my life. Different I

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<v Speaker 2>tell stories about when I learned them and how I

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<v Speaker 2>use these lessons to get through these last six years

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<v Speaker 2>as governor of Michigan. And if I give you a laugh,

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<v Speaker 2>or there's a little inspiration, or it's just some light

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<v Speaker 2>reading and the heavy time, that's what it's all about.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems to me that it's designed in some ways

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<v Speaker 1>to introduce you to an audience and for people really

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<v Speaker 1>to get to know you, because you're very honest about

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 3>Gretchen, Well, I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm not a perfect person, and I've learned

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<v Speaker 2>things from my own mistakes or learned things from wiser

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<v Speaker 2>people than I am, and have really been able to,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, grow through some of those struggles. And if

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lesson that I've learned that might make someone's

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<v Speaker 2>day a little easier help them navigate something, then I've

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<v Speaker 2>accomplished what I set out to do.

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<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate you being honest and vulnerable in this book.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I wrote a memoir a few years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was extremely transparent about, you know, my accomplishments,

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<v Speaker 1>things I was proud of, but also my flaw us

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<v Speaker 1>and things that I regretted or wish I had done better.

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<v Speaker 1>And I ended up getting mightily criticized for those things.

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<v Speaker 1>But why do you think it's important for leaders, and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe particularly women leaders, to be honest about their journey

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<v Speaker 1>and some of the mistakes they've made along the way.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I'm lucky that there were women who

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<v Speaker 2>came before me who made it easier for me to

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<v Speaker 2>show up as myself and to be that honest. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a recent article that Rebecca Traster wrote, and she

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<v Speaker 2>wrote about how Jennifer Granholm, the first governor of Michigan,

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<v Speaker 2>who is now our energy secretary, how she'd cut her

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<v Speaker 2>hair short and tried to you know, not.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of masculate, masculate herself, if that's a word.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, exactly exactly. And I think that because she and

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<v Speaker 2>people like Hillary Clinton came before and took so much heat.

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<v Speaker 2>It's made it easier for people in my generation to

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<v Speaker 2>show up as we are. And I'm hoping that the

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<v Speaker 2>things that I've had to navigate, the generation comes after

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<v Speaker 2>me doesn't have to. And I think that's why talking

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<v Speaker 2>about it, really identifying it, and being authentic and showing

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<v Speaker 2>up that way is important, and showing people that you

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<v Speaker 2>are not a perfect person and that you're here better

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<v Speaker 2>than anyone else.

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<v Speaker 1>And in a way it gives other women permission to

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<v Speaker 1>not be perfect exactly, because that's a recipe for disaster.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's face it, because no one is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk a little bit about your life. You were

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<v Speaker 1>born in Lansing in nineteen seventy one. Politics. I learned

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<v Speaker 1>so much about you by the way in this book,

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<v Speaker 1>and I thought I knew a fair amount about you.

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<v Speaker 1>But it was a family business. Your mom was a Democrat.

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<v Speaker 1>She was a lawyer and served as assistant Attorney general.

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<v Speaker 1>Your dad, meanwhile, was a Republican and served in Governor

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<v Speaker 1>Milliken's cabinet before becoming an insurance executive. Looking back, was

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<v Speaker 1>it a foregone conclusion growing up with these two figures

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<v Speaker 1>obviously in your life, that you'd go into politics.

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<v Speaker 2>God, No, no, no, I mean did their service turn

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<v Speaker 2>you often anyway? No public service that you know. Their

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<v Speaker 2>generations of my family have been in public service. And

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of the book, I talk about my

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<v Speaker 2>grandfather who was a superintendent during court ordered bussing and

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<v Speaker 2>had the ku Klux Klan target his house and bomb

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<v Speaker 2>buses in Pontiac, Michigan while he was superintendent. So I

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<v Speaker 2>always revered public service, but I thought I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a sports broadcaster, to be honest.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, they were very funny man.

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<v Speaker 2>You know ESPN. When I was growing up. I love sports.

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<v Speaker 2>Went to Michigan State to do with that, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was my dad who said, you know, the capital is

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<v Speaker 2>right down the street. So few people understand how state

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<v Speaker 2>government works. Why don't you apply for an internship and

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<v Speaker 2>see if you can get one and just check it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you hate it, but you've had an opportunity. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you love it. And that was really great advice. I

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<v Speaker 2>got involved and passionate about public policy and really changed

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<v Speaker 2>the trajectory of my life.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like every young person, honestly, and I regret

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<v Speaker 1>not doing that to be an intern in some form

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<v Speaker 1>of government, because I think part of the problem in

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<v Speaker 1>Gretchen is so many people really don't truly understand how

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<v Speaker 1>government works. Civics education has been kind of not necessarily prioritized.

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<v Speaker 1>Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, that was her big fight

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<v Speaker 1>in the later years of her life. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>there's nothing like seeing government at work with your very

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<v Speaker 1>own eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't agree more. I think that we need to

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<v Speaker 2>do better in terms of civic education, for sure. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that it's easy to undermine the institutions of our

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<v Speaker 2>democracy when people don't know, or don't trust, or don't

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<v Speaker 2>understand how it works. So giving people that exposure it

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<v Speaker 2>was a great suggestion of my father's. I've made the

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<v Speaker 2>same suggestion to both my girls because I want them

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<v Speaker 2>to also be, you know, consumers of information and active

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<v Speaker 2>in their in their government, whether it's they hold office

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<v Speaker 2>one day, which I doubt either one of them will do, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>or it is just simply as a citizen or business

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<v Speaker 2>owner or whatever their path is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, as safe works exactly. I think as a citizen

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<v Speaker 1>where we all have that responsibility. I wanted to ask

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<v Speaker 1>you about the fact that your parents had a mixed marriage,

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<v Speaker 1>so to speak. Right, your dad was a Republican. Your

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<v Speaker 1>mom was a Democrat. I know they ultimately divorced when

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<v Speaker 1>you were just six years old. But how do you

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<v Speaker 1>think being exposed to different political perspectives shaped you, Because

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<v Speaker 1>it's very unusual. Only twenty one percent of marriages today

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<v Speaker 1>are mixed party, according to the American Family Survey.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it tells you a lot about where

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<v Speaker 2>the parties have gone over the years. Right, my father,

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<v Speaker 2>It's really funny. He was a part of the Milligan

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<v Speaker 2>and Romney administrations in Michigan. Romney, of course, the name

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<v Speaker 2>everyone knows.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, amidst dad, Right, it's dad, George Romney, Right, George

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<v Speaker 1>Romney exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But it was a time when the Republican Party they

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there were a lot of pro choice people

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<v Speaker 2>in the Republican Party. They were Milliken was a great environmentalist.

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<v Speaker 2>Protecting the Great Lakes was something that he was very

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<v Speaker 2>passionate about equal housing. I mean, it was a different time,

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think that one of the lessons that

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<v Speaker 2>I've always taken with me and all offices I've held

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<v Speaker 2>is that no one person or one party has all

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<v Speaker 2>the answers that we've got to be able to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to one another and you're never going to find what

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<v Speaker 2>you can agree on if you're not even talking to

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<v Speaker 2>each other. And I think part of the discouragement that

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<v Speaker 2>people have, justifiably is they look at what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>in our politics and it's so personal, it's so ugly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's sometimes terrifying, you know. I talk about the all

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<v Speaker 2>the threats that have become normalized in today's politics in America.

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<v Speaker 1>So scary, right, And I'm going to talk to you

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<v Speaker 1>about that in a moment, and also about polarization. But

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<v Speaker 1>I do want to touch on a little bit about

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<v Speaker 1>your teenage years, because you describe yourself as a bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a hellien as a teenager, drinking and getting suspended

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<v Speaker 1>from school. You even tell Gretchen one pretty cringe story

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<v Speaker 1>of throwing up on your high school principle after he

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<v Speaker 1>discovered you you drunk in the parking lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh my god, moment. And I would have killed

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter. So if they'd done anything that stupid. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I was.

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<v Speaker 3>I ran with a fast ground in high school.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a lot of fun, Katie. It sounds like it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it also you know, I wasn't particularly challenged or

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<v Speaker 2>interested in what I was you know, learning in school.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was that moment. You know, I got in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of trouble. I was suspended, my mother wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to kill me. And the worst thing is my dad

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<v Speaker 2>goes silent when he's angry. I'm a little more like

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<v Speaker 2>my dad. Yeah, and I'm like that too.

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<v Speaker 3>Not a good not a good treat.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, a silent parent who's a.

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<v Speaker 1>Silent treatment is not a good way to go.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, I really got my ag together after that.

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<v Speaker 2>I became the most improved student. I got an award

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<v Speaker 2>for that, and later in high school and went out

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<v Speaker 2>to Michigan State, which was a very much in doubt

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<v Speaker 2>if I could get in at one point in high school.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh really, But so academically you weren't particularly strong.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I was not disciplined. I had all the raw materials,

0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.400
<v Speaker 2>but it was not disciplined in the slightest. And I

0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.480
<v Speaker 2>started to get my stride in college. And then law

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.160
<v Speaker 2>school is when it really clicked for me. I loved

0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 2>law school. I graduated summa cum laude and was loved it.

0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.679
<v Speaker 2>Finally was challenged and focused and surrounded by people who

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.000
<v Speaker 2>were similarly motivated.

0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.240
<v Speaker 1>This should give hope to anyone who's got a bit

0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.040
<v Speaker 1>of a Hellian as a teenager right now that he

0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.200
<v Speaker 1>or she is not necessarily lost cause, right, absolutely, But

0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.480
<v Speaker 1>it did create some tension with your mom. You write

0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:50.520
<v Speaker 1>about that, right.

0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.079
<v Speaker 2>She wanted to kill me, And like I said, if

0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.680
<v Speaker 2>either of my daughters had been that difficulty, I would

0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.560
<v Speaker 2>have felt the same exact way. But ultimately went to

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.040
<v Speaker 2>college and she became one of my very best friends.

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.040
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I talk a little bit about the

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>time in my life that I think really forged who

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 2>I am today, and I became a Sandwich generation member

0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.400
<v Speaker 2>in my late twenties, my mom was dying of brain cancer.

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 2>I had just given birth to my first child and

0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 2>was both of their primary caregiver, and it was that

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.760
<v Speaker 2>experience I think that really made who I am today.

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I read about that, and I'm so sorry because

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 1>she was just fifty nine when she died, and you

0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 1>were thirty one, as you said, with just one daughter

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:36.199
<v Speaker 1>at the time.

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Two month old.

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Yet two month old when she passed away. So how

0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:40.920
<v Speaker 1>long was she sick, Gretchen?

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, the prognosis was four to six months, and

0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.679
<v Speaker 2>she lived for about eighteen And I think, you know,

0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.560
<v Speaker 2>having that child to look forward to was a motive

0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.720
<v Speaker 2>was helpful for her to keep her spirits up. But

0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 2>we had good healthcare, she had a supportive family, and

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.600
<v Speaker 2>she had a heck of a wonderful attay to like

0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:01.600
<v Speaker 2>she was.

0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I read in your book she was kind of,

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:08.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, cracking jokes and being funny and sort of

0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.680
<v Speaker 1>I guess had a bit of a mischievous personality.

0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, we talked about Gallows humor. Like you know,

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.160
<v Speaker 2>I talked to my mom's sister a few years ago

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 2>during the pandemic, and she's the closest thing I have

0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 2>to my mom. And I just said, Aunt, Betsy, you know,

0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.760
<v Speaker 2>if my mom were here, what would she say to

0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>me right now? And she said, I don't know what

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 2>she would say, Gretchen, but you're so much like her.

0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 2>You can find something humorous even in the darkest, hardest moment,

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 2>and that is a huge superpower. And I thought that

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.200
<v Speaker 2>was really the nicest thing that I could have heard

0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:37.800
<v Speaker 2>in that moment.

0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 1>And it's nice that you got that from your mom. Right.

0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 1>And another thing you got is that you often wear

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 1>bright pink. I guess you'd call it fusia, right, And

0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 1>you're wearing fuscha pants today because that was your mom's

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:52.560
<v Speaker 1>favorite color.

0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 2>She loved it. She was, you know, at the Attorney

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.120
<v Speaker 2>General's office and one of her colleagues she'd worn a pink,

0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.200
<v Speaker 2>bright pink blaze her to work and she was getting

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.200
<v Speaker 2>ready to go to court and one of the colleagues said,

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 2>you can't wear pink to court, Sherry, And she said,

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Fusta is my power color and went off. And you know,

0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.440
<v Speaker 2>I had a spectacular showing in court. And I always

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 2>love that story. But she loved pink. And when I

0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.160
<v Speaker 2>kicked off my campaign, the women's marches were happening. We

0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.200
<v Speaker 2>all were showing up with our pink hats on. So

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 2>pink'spen this kind of interesting theme. And as the mom

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:25.680
<v Speaker 2>of two.

0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Daughters, one named Sherry, yeah, after your mom.

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly, it's kind of a color that makes me

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.440
<v Speaker 2>happy and feel energized and strong.

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, I like pink too. So let's talk

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.560
<v Speaker 1>about twenty thirteen. You were serving as Michigan's Senate minority leader,

0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 1>and that year state Republicans tried to push through a

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.840
<v Speaker 1>bill requiring women in Michigan to buy extra health insurance

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 1>for abortion coverage. It was rape insurance as you called it.

0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>On the day the bill came up for a vote,

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 1>you tossed aside your prepared remarks.

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Why, well, I had an internal strife going. I was

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>getting ready to speak. We had a situation where the

0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.960
<v Speaker 2>majority party, the Republicans, would not hold a single hearing,

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:21.479
<v Speaker 2>let women testify, let doctors and nurses testify, like no conversation.

0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.840
<v Speaker 2>They just wanted to jam through this new policy. And

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.120
<v Speaker 2>I thought, I have a MIC, I need to use it.

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>And I was trying to talk my colleague into telling

0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 2>his and his wife story. I thought maybe that would

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.720
<v Speaker 2>engender some sympathy or at least open up some minds.

0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.359
<v Speaker 2>They'd been desperately wanting a family. She'd gone through IVF.

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 2>It didn't you know, she had a miscarriage, but it

0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 2>wasn't complete, and so she had to go to the

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 2>hospital to have an abortion. Call it a DNC, but

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>it's an abortion. And had the law been what it

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 2>was that they were pushing through the thirty thousand dollars

0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.680
<v Speaker 2>hospital bill would not have been covered by their insurance.

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Was desperately wanted pregnancy. And I asked him if he

0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.919
<v Speaker 2>could tell the story, and he couldn't. It was just

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.280
<v Speaker 2>too recent and too hard. Yeah. I remember walking back

0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 2>to my desk thinking, God, how can I ask him

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.840
<v Speaker 2>to bear himself to the world when I too have

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.280
<v Speaker 2>a story that might resonate with people. And so I

0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.680
<v Speaker 2>decided to share the story for the first time publicly

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.359
<v Speaker 2>that I was raped when I was in college as

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.840
<v Speaker 2>a freshman. And I grabbed two of my staff people,

0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.000
<v Speaker 2>one woman, one man, and I said, I shared with

0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.200
<v Speaker 2>him what had happened. I said, I think thinking about

0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.920
<v Speaker 2>telling this on the floor and the woman I worked

0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.200
<v Speaker 2>with said, don't do it. You're not going to change

0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 2>a single vote. She wanted to protect me because she

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.720
<v Speaker 2>knew she was savvy, she knew what was going to happen.

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 2>And the man said, I have no advice. You got

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.600
<v Speaker 2>to do what you think the right thing to do is.

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.159
<v Speaker 2>You know. They're both shocked. And I told the story

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 2>and it didn't change a damn vote. Katie, and I

0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.440
<v Speaker 2>remember after the vote came, one of the guys on

0:17:58.440 --> 0:17:59.720
<v Speaker 2>the other side of the aisle came up to me

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.320
<v Speaker 2>and said, you're so brave. My wife too was raped

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 2>when she was in college, and I wish I could

0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 2>have voted with you. And I heard that from him,

0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.280
<v Speaker 2>and I just was like, you've just acknowledged that I

0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 2>cast the right boat, and you wish you could have,

0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.000
<v Speaker 2>but you didn't. And it was gutting. But by the

0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.760
<v Speaker 2>next morning I got into the office and we'd had

0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of phone calls and emails and faxes. This was

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.320
<v Speaker 2>ten years ago, so faxes were quite a thing. And

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.879
<v Speaker 2>that's when I realized, Okay, I laid myself bare, but

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 2>I gave voice to something that needed to be given

0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.159
<v Speaker 2>and people felt seen and heard and represented, and that

0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 2>was for me, the good part of doing it. And

0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 2>ten years later, we kept the fight up, and as

0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 2>governor of Michigan, I got to sign the repeal of

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.280
<v Speaker 2>that long the ten year anniversary of.

0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.320
<v Speaker 1>It, which was so awesome as a woman who believes

0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.399
<v Speaker 1>deeply in reproductive rights. Thank you for that, well, thank you.

0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.680
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was a good opportunity to show people

0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 2>that these fights are heard. It can feel very demoralizing

0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.719
<v Speaker 2>and discouraging, but we're right on these issues and we

0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>can win them. It might take longer than it should, though,

0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:16.280
<v Speaker 2>but we can win them.

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.800
<v Speaker 1>When we come back. Gretchen's time and Trump's Twitter crosshairs,

0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.720
<v Speaker 1>I've been there too. Trump called me a has been,

0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:27.399
<v Speaker 1>but I'm still here. Donald Moore after the break. If

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.880
<v Speaker 1>you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown

0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.160
<v Speaker 1>of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I want

0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.760
<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about the abortion landscape in a moment,

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.680
<v Speaker 1>but first I want to talk to you about being

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.880
<v Speaker 1>elected as governor of Michigan. That was in twenty eighteen.

0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Two years later, the pandemic started and your state was

0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.679
<v Speaker 1>one of the hardest hit. You write in a not

0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:10.359
<v Speaker 1>very flattering way about what President Trump did during that time,

0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.720
<v Speaker 1>which is really frustrating even reading it in retrospect. Of

0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 1>course we heard about this at the time, But can

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>you describe sort of the kind of hunger Games environment.

0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.040
<v Speaker 1>I think actually you described it in a cruel hunger

0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.679
<v Speaker 1>Game style scramble for equipment, So tell us what that

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.119
<v Speaker 1>was like and what was going on at that moment.

0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's hard to remember, right, COVID has really I think.

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.800
<v Speaker 1>It feels like yesterday, and it feels like, you know,

0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:38.120
<v Speaker 1>thousand years ago exactly.

0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we at the beginning of the pandemic. I know

0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.880
<v Speaker 2>that Washington State was head first, but then very quickly

0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 2>COVID was spreading like wildfire through New York City, Detroit,

0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.800
<v Speaker 2>New Orleans, and Chicago. We were all desperately trying to

0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:59.200
<v Speaker 2>just get masks. Our hospitals were filled with COVID patients.

0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.240
<v Speaker 2>We had doctors and nurses wearing masks for the same

0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.920
<v Speaker 2>mask for weeks on end. And we were just desperately

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.760
<v Speaker 2>trying to get masks and all the ppe that we needed.

0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.120
<v Speaker 2>And we were asking the federal government for help. And

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, the president at the time, former President Trump,

0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.639
<v Speaker 2>had been saying, you know, we're not the nation's supply

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.399
<v Speaker 2>or you need to go find these things.

0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 1>And so we were if that's not the federal government's

0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.280
<v Speaker 1>role to at least help coordinate, I don't know what

0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.359
<v Speaker 1>is right in a national crisis.

0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Exactly when Americans are dying, when our hospitals are filled,

0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:38.360
<v Speaker 2>we had makeshift morgues with refrigerated trucks outside of hospitals.

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, I living in New York City,

0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.520
<v Speaker 1>I live across from Lenox Hill Hospital, and I witnessed

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:45.160
<v Speaker 1>the same thing.

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:50.520
<v Speaker 2>It was chilling and devastating, and people were scared, and

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I was scared. It wasn't so much that I was

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 2>mad that that we were being kind of left to

0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.720
<v Speaker 2>our own devices, but I was fearful for the people

0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.399
<v Speaker 2>that I I serve, And so we set up a

0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>quickly set up like a global procurement office, trying to

0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:09.320
<v Speaker 2>get masks, and when we would get an order confirmed,

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:11.720
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, we'd be informed that no, the

0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.960
<v Speaker 2>federal government actually was going to commandeer that. And so

0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:16.399
<v Speaker 2>it was like we were told to go out and

0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.240
<v Speaker 2>find these and then when we did, we were undermined.

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.960
<v Speaker 2>And so it was a really scary time and.

0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Fear was and you spoke, and you spoke out about

0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.280
<v Speaker 1>how scary it was and the lack of federal strategy.

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.800
<v Speaker 1>As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump,

0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:36.360
<v Speaker 1>zeroed in on you, famously calling you that woman from Michigan.

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.400
<v Speaker 1>By the way, I'm a member of that club I've

0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.159
<v Speaker 1>been tweeted about by Donald Trump.

0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:40.840
<v Speaker 3>He called me.

0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 1>It has been a number of years ago, and I'm

0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.000
<v Speaker 1>still here, so that's good. But you know you, I

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:52.240
<v Speaker 1>thought it was really funny and great how you turned

0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.360
<v Speaker 1>that Michigan woman into an asset instead of a liability.

0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Talk to us about that.

0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, I've learned over the year, so

0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:02.640
<v Speaker 2>you know how to deal with bullies, right.

0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:07.040
<v Speaker 1>It's oh, in fact, you were bullied, remember, I mean remember,

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.520
<v Speaker 1>of course you remember, but you wrote about it in

0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.320
<v Speaker 1>your book that you had your share of bullies growing up.

0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize, listen, take

0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 2>their weapon and make it your shield. When he called

0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.200
<v Speaker 2>me that woman from Michigan, you know, was I hurt, No,

0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.679
<v Speaker 2>not at all, But was I worried about what he

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.600
<v Speaker 2>would exact retribution and not work with us on you know,

0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 2>all the things we needed during the pandemic. But I

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.359
<v Speaker 2>decided to wear a T shirt that someone from the

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.119
<v Speaker 2>great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me

0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:43.280
<v Speaker 2>that said that woman from Michigan. I wore it on

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Trevor Noah's show.

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:46.920
<v Speaker 3>And a lot of people started wearing it, right.

0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:48.920
<v Speaker 2>They did, and everywhere I went, I mean, it became

0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 2>this thing, that woman from Michigan. I write about it

0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:54.600
<v Speaker 2>in the book. But I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and

0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 2>a woman came up to me and she had framed

0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:00.159
<v Speaker 2>a picture she drew of me, and it said that

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.360
<v Speaker 2>woman from Michigan. And I was said, Oh, that's so nice,

0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.120
<v Speaker 2>and then she showed me she'd also had a tattooed

0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.800
<v Speaker 2>on the back of her leg. I was like, oh

0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 2>my god, that's called that's called serious support.

0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Right, that's so funny.

0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.359
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I do think that when when a

0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.399
<v Speaker 2>bully it comes for you, you need to flip their

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 2>their insult and make it your your cause for action.

0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:25.720
<v Speaker 1>And that's what was the reaction, by the way, from him.

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Did you hear did he tweet about you again?

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Anytime he tweeted, Just like I'm sure anyone who's

0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:35.639
<v Speaker 2>been tweeted about by the former president, you know, we

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:40.360
<v Speaker 2>saw more anger coming my way. But yeah, I mean

0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I was a frequent target of.

0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 1>His, And how did you handle that? Because you know

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:50.160
<v Speaker 1>it hurts on some level. Listen, no matter what when

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.760
<v Speaker 1>people are saying nasty, mean things about you, you can

0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.639
<v Speaker 1>pretend it doesn't it's not wounding. But you know, I

0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 1>can have some name, this faceless anonymous person on Twitter

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 1>saying something mean about me, and actually it's like it's

0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:07.919
<v Speaker 1>like stabbing me in the heart a little bit. I

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.439
<v Speaker 1>get used to it and I get over it, but

0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 1>it still kind of hurts.

0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.879
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, I mean we're we are human. I you know,

0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.040
<v Speaker 2>talk a little bit about kind of the Whitmers, and

0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I think being a Whitmer and being gen X, there

0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe are a couple of similarities there right that have

0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:29.200
<v Speaker 2>been very pronounced. But Whitmers have short memories and fixed skin.

0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, good for you, because God knows you need so

0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>you need those in politics, and you need more than that,

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:37.959
<v Speaker 1>because you need security.

0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:39.160
<v Speaker 3>Gretchen Whitmer.

0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:42.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in twenty twenty, a plot to kidnap and

0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:45.159
<v Speaker 1>kill you by a right wing militia group was discovered.

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Take us back to that moment. I mean, that's not

0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.440
<v Speaker 1>a mean tweet. That's a really scary situation. How did

0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:57.879
<v Speaker 1>you even begin to process something like that? And you know,

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:01.119
<v Speaker 1>just take us back to what that was like.

0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.399
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was really startling, to be honest, that

0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>for one of my briefings. You know, governors were doing

0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:11.399
<v Speaker 2>regular briefings around COVID, what the numbers were, what, you know,

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:14.080
<v Speaker 2>what was happening in our states. And I went down

0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>to do one and they'd had a protest at the

0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:18.520
<v Speaker 2>capitol and people didn't know I was in my office.

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.200
<v Speaker 2>My office actually the working office is across the street from.

0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.800
<v Speaker 1>The Capitol and tell us again what the protest was about,

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.800
<v Speaker 1>because I think people don't remember maybe what was going on.

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:29.719
<v Speaker 2>We had I issued a stay at home order. It

0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:33.679
<v Speaker 2>was for like three weeks, and everything was going. You know,

0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:37.919
<v Speaker 2>people were pretty compliant until the former president singled me

0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:39.960
<v Speaker 2>out and then we started seeing protests and then my

0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 2>legislature turned against and started suing me and trying to

0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:46.920
<v Speaker 2>take away my powers, et cetera. And I remember going

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.200
<v Speaker 2>down for one of my briefings and looking out at

0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.240
<v Speaker 2>this protest that they'd organized. It was called Operation Gridlock,

0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:55.560
<v Speaker 2>and they brought all their cars downtown and parked in

0:26:55.600 --> 0:26:58.320
<v Speaker 2>the street and were making noise. And I knew that

0:26:58.359 --> 0:27:00.560
<v Speaker 2>they were going to protest, and I thought, Okay, it's fine.

0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:03.200
<v Speaker 2>But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate

0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:07.960
<v Speaker 2>flags and Nazi symbolism. And there's a picture in the

0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:10.359
<v Speaker 2>book that I took with my phone that had someone

0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:13.960
<v Speaker 2>had on the back of their pickup. This halfway is

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 2>why we have the Second Amendment, you know, gun threats

0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.320
<v Speaker 2>and a barbie and a noose that looked like me.

0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:24.760
<v Speaker 2>And this was I think the moment where I realized, Wow,

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:29.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this has taken a whole new level of danger.

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:33.119
<v Speaker 1>And sounds like some foreshadowings of January sixth.

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:36.439
<v Speaker 2>Well exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people

0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.879
<v Speaker 2>in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the

0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:44.880
<v Speaker 2>gallery with their automatic rifles. It was absolutely when January

0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.359
<v Speaker 2>sixth happened, I maybe was one of the few people.

0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:49.439
<v Speaker 1>That felt like I've seen that movie before.

0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't a surprise? Yeah, and then when it culminated into

0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:56.119
<v Speaker 2>this plot, you know, I think that was one of

0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>those mon.

0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.080
<v Speaker 1>How did you learn about the plot?

0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:01.120
<v Speaker 2>The head of my detail so in the Michigan State

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Police said, you know, I'd like to sit down with you,

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and we chatted and we're both masked up, you know,

0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:08.720
<v Speaker 2>we were still in the thick of everything. He said,

0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I just want you to know you and your family

0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:13.399
<v Speaker 2>are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police

0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:16.120
<v Speaker 2>are working with some informants who have been a part

0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 2>of a plot of ten to fourteen people who have

0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:23.440
<v Speaker 2>been are planning to putting together a plan to kidnap

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and kill you.

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:29.800
<v Speaker 1>And lord, I mean even hear you, hearing you say that,

0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 1>it's like, holy shit.

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was scary, and you know, I wasn't leaving

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 2>the house much with the state Police do a wonderful

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:41.960
<v Speaker 2>job keeping my family and me safe.

0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:43.840
<v Speaker 1>I was going to say, how did it change life

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 1>for you and your family? I'm sure. I mean, you

0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:51.120
<v Speaker 1>can't kind of live normally after something like that happens, right.

0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:53.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I always tell people I love people.

0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>That's why I do. Yeah work, I do. I love

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>going into especially going into unexpected places and having conversations

0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>with people.

0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:01.120
<v Speaker 3>That must be fun.

0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:03.440
<v Speaker 2>It is, yeah, I mean, it really is. That's I

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.840
<v Speaker 2>got into all eighty three counties in my first election,

0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I'd love to ask people what can

0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>I do for you? What's going on in your life?

0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:14.720
<v Speaker 2>And now, you know, going into a crowded room and

0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:18.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, certain parts of the state, I feel much

0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>more aware. I'm much more concerned about where the exits

0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:25.400
<v Speaker 2>are and who's there. And it's it's really sad that

0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>anyone in public life has to think that way, but

0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>we do know.

0:29:29.800 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, I thought it was interesting that you would

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.200
<v Speaker 1>like to meet with some of the people who are

0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 1>planning to kidnap and kill you. That's really admirable, but

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 1>also in some ways hard to fathom.

0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I was because you think I'm not so well.

0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:51.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, I've done so many stories about

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 1>children who have been brutally murdered, and this extraordinary act

0:29:56.760 --> 0:30:00.479
<v Speaker 1>of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 1>meet someone who killed her own child. I mean, I can't.

0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 1>I've done many stories about that. So in some ways

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:13.200
<v Speaker 1>I understand your impulse. But what would you like to

0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 1>learn from them? I imagine it's like you want to

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 1>understand what is motivating these extreme right wing individuals.

0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:25.000
<v Speaker 2>I do. I would love to talk, especially with one

0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:27.920
<v Speaker 2>of the ones that worked with the government and testified

0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and has shown a little bit of remorse. So I'd

0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:32.840
<v Speaker 2>like to just understand how did this come to be

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:35.040
<v Speaker 2>and what was fueling and what was really going on

0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:39.360
<v Speaker 2>with people. Because taking up arms and planning to assassinate

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:43.120
<v Speaker 2>a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep

0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:46.400
<v Speaker 2>people alive, it's not a rational reaction. So what else

0:30:46.520 --> 0:30:48.680
<v Speaker 2>was happening there? What can I learn from this? I

0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:51.640
<v Speaker 2>feel like every situation there's got to be a lesson

0:30:51.760 --> 0:30:52.800
<v Speaker 2>or I've got to at least try.

0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Not only what you can learn, but how you can

0:30:55.720 --> 0:31:00.320
<v Speaker 1>begin to bridge that divide. I imagine eight.

0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely that's what it's all about. And maybe there's nothing

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:07.320
<v Speaker 2>to learn, but maybe there is, and that's why I'd

0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:09.960
<v Speaker 2>like to take the opportunity to have that conversation.

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:12.640
<v Speaker 1>It is interesting for me to hear you say at

0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.160
<v Speaker 1>the beginning that you appreciate some of the women who

0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:20.960
<v Speaker 1>came before you, who had to deal with just endless bullshit.

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:24.760
<v Speaker 1>I might be included in that category in some ways,

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 1>in other ways not so much. But I'm curious about

0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:33.520
<v Speaker 1>being a female politician today. I'd like to read this

0:31:33.600 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 1>passage from an article about you in The Washington Post

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 1>that came out in July of twenty twenty two. Whitmer

0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 1>is a woman, but she is also an attractive woman,

0:31:42.960 --> 0:31:47.120
<v Speaker 1>and her use of executive power, when wielded broadly, seems

0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 1>to deeply trigger her male antagonists. The Republican leader of

0:31:51.080 --> 0:31:54.320
<v Speaker 1>the state Senate, Mike Shirkey, bragged on a hot mic

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.040
<v Speaker 1>that he had quote spanked her heart on budget, spanked

0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:01.760
<v Speaker 1>her herd on appointments, and also so contemplated inviting her

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:06.120
<v Speaker 1>to a fistfight on the Capitol lawn. Another Republican lawmaker,

0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Senator Ed mcbroome, complained that Whitmer had been quote neutering

0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:15.960
<v Speaker 1>him and his colleagues the cause of the legislature's emasculation.

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this was twenty twenty two, Gretchen Wimmer, This wasn't.

0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 3>Like eighteen thirty nine.

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:30.479
<v Speaker 1>So, I mean, sexism is so pervasive and deeply rooted,

0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:36.840
<v Speaker 1>and I'm curious how it's manifested itself in your tenure

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:37.680
<v Speaker 1>as governor.

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean frequently. And one of the great things

0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:47.040
<v Speaker 2>is right now in Michigan, we've got all the statewide electeds,

0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 2>excluding my Lieutenant governor, are all women. And it's been

0:32:52.120 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 2>great to be, i think, surrounded by people who are

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 2>ready to step into their and to own the power

0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:02.600
<v Speaker 2>of the office that they have been elected to and

0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:05.440
<v Speaker 2>to use that power to do the things that they

0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 2>ran on. It's we feed off one another that gives

0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>you great encouragement to one another. But there's no question

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:17.800
<v Speaker 2>during the pandemic, I remember getting man explained by my

0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>two Republican leaders. They were both in the majority, the

0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Speaker of the House and that guy Shirky who you

0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:26.760
<v Speaker 2>just mentioned, and they were telling me about what the

0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.600
<v Speaker 2>law was and why I was out of bounce. I'm

0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:32.640
<v Speaker 2>the only lawyer in the conversation, Katie, but they're telling

0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:35.200
<v Speaker 2>me what the law is, and I thought, I don't

0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:38.000
<v Speaker 2>believe any of my meal predecessors would have ever gotten

0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:41.120
<v Speaker 2>this kind of a man spleening lecture. And in fact,

0:33:42.160 --> 0:33:44.240
<v Speaker 2>after I won the lawsuit, I didn't have to go

0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:45.680
<v Speaker 2>out of my way to point it out that I

0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:49.640
<v Speaker 2>was actually right on the law. But it is. It's

0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:53.560
<v Speaker 2>one of those things that women have to waste energy

0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:56.360
<v Speaker 2>on thinking about how do we react to every one

0:33:56.400 --> 0:34:01.080
<v Speaker 2>of these all the incoming. Do we make an opportunity

0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:03.400
<v Speaker 2>to educate the person about why what they just did

0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:05.840
<v Speaker 2>was out of bounds? Do we laugh it off, like

0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.160
<v Speaker 2>you're silly and I'm not going to give you the

0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.560
<v Speaker 2>time of day. Do we go dafund for tiding to

0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:11.120
<v Speaker 2>hear it?

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Do we take stifle ourselves side it like when someone says,

0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.560
<v Speaker 1>what is it called? When you suggest something and nobody responds,

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.120
<v Speaker 1>then their man suggests it.

0:34:22.040 --> 0:34:24.399
<v Speaker 3>A butterfly effect, Yeah, yeah, and.

0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Everyone's like, what a great idea.

0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the woman put it on the table and

0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 2>then the man let it give it the way to fly. Yeah.

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:38.839
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's it's challenging, without question, but you know,

0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:41.680
<v Speaker 2>as the mom of two daughters, I'm always mindful of that.

0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:44.080
<v Speaker 2>I've got to show up and be tough and think

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.759
<v Speaker 2>about how I model what is doable, but also how

0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:51.600
<v Speaker 2>we hold people accountable and how when women lead we

0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:52.359
<v Speaker 2>get shited done.

0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:57.799
<v Speaker 1>And also I think isn't the best revenge doing the

0:34:57.880 --> 0:35:02.719
<v Speaker 1>job well right and being right about the law when

0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:06.680
<v Speaker 1>you're being explained by two non lawyers what it is.

0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's sort of that is, I think one

0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.439
<v Speaker 1>of the best ways, like being successful at what you do.

0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:16.719
<v Speaker 1>But I think female power is still very threatening to men,

0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 1>and I think in a way it's not their fault

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:24.880
<v Speaker 1>because they've been culturally conditioned to I think, especially older

0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 1>men honestly and some younger men, to see gender roles

0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.919
<v Speaker 1>as so specific and it's so reinforced in so many

0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:37.799
<v Speaker 1>ways in our society, whether it's billboards or images. And

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:42.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, I talked to interesting education professor at Harvard

0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:45.839
<v Speaker 1>because I had done an hour on gender inequality in

0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she talked about, you know,

0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 1>our brains are wired to make these connections, and when

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.200
<v Speaker 1>you're surrounded by certain things like your mom is always

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.160
<v Speaker 1>doing the laundry or washing the dishes or cooking, you know,

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:01.520
<v Speaker 1>you do make this connection, wiring gets kind of built

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.680
<v Speaker 1>into your brain that there are certain roles for women

0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:07.440
<v Speaker 1>in certain roles for men. And that's why it's so

0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:11.640
<v Speaker 1>important that we have to break these roles, because that

0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:14.480
<v Speaker 1>will result in breaking these stereotypes right.

0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, and we have to be intentional about it, and

0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:21.520
<v Speaker 2>we're always have to do that. Math is this, the moment?

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Is this? How do I respond to this? And how

0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:25.720
<v Speaker 2>do we break those molds?

0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:28.400
<v Speaker 1>I have to ask you, as the mother of two daughters,

0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:31.160
<v Speaker 1>I also am the mom of two daughters. You have

0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Sharry twenty two in Sydney twenty how concerned are you?

0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:37.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I am deeply concerned about what is happening

0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:42.400
<v Speaker 1>to reproductive rights in this country. I don't have to

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:45.520
<v Speaker 1>necessarily read the statistics, but maybe it would be helpful

0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:49.440
<v Speaker 1>to our listeners. Fourteen states have abortion bands and almost

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:54.960
<v Speaker 1>all circumstances fourteen states. Three states have enacted bans or restrictions,

0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:58.600
<v Speaker 1>but abortion remains legal for now as courts determine whether

0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:02.920
<v Speaker 1>these laws can take effect. That's Montana, Wyoming, and Iowa.

0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Seven states have gestational limits raging from six to twenty

0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:12.560
<v Speaker 1>two weeks, and twenty five states and DC still have

0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:16.239
<v Speaker 1>legal abortion. You know, people used to kind of make

0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:21.040
<v Speaker 1>jokes about the Handmaid's Tale, but it does seem eerily

0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:26.560
<v Speaker 1>prescient now in terms of what has happened as Roe

0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:29.879
<v Speaker 1>was overturned and it was handed back to the States.

0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 1>So what do you, I mean, honestly, how do you

0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:36.359
<v Speaker 1>process all this?

0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Well? I mean, it's shocking to be in a situation

0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:43.279
<v Speaker 2>where a right that I've had my whole life's not

0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:46.759
<v Speaker 2>very much in jeopardy for my daughters. To think what

0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the ability to have reproductive freedom and access to complete

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:55.120
<v Speaker 2>healthcare has meant for generations of women in America, what

0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:57.680
<v Speaker 2>it's meant for our economy, what it's meant for our

0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:00.839
<v Speaker 2>ability to raise a family and do the things that

0:38:00.920 --> 0:38:03.279
<v Speaker 2>we need to do to take care of ourselves and

0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:07.319
<v Speaker 2>our families. And to think that our girls may not

0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:09.640
<v Speaker 2>always be able to say that they've had these rights.

0:38:10.080 --> 0:38:12.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, in Michigan, we would have reverted back to

0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:15.719
<v Speaker 2>a nineteen thirty one law with the Dobbs decision, But

0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:18.359
<v Speaker 2>I filed a lawsuit because I was getting ready when

0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. I said, we had to scour

0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 2>everything and see what we can do here, and so

0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:26.200
<v Speaker 2>we had an injunction from the day that the Dobbs

0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:28.640
<v Speaker 2>decision came down. I took a lot of crap for

0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 2>filing that lawsuit because people said, oh, it's an overreaction,

0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 2>they're not going to do that, or you know, you

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:37.880
<v Speaker 2>don't have standing, it's not ripe all the stuff.

0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:41.440
<v Speaker 1>Don't worry so much, don't be such an alarmist.

0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:44.839
<v Speaker 2>They'll never do that. But we ignored that. We went

0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:46.840
<v Speaker 2>ahead and did it, and so we never lost the

0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:50.080
<v Speaker 2>right in Michigan for a minute. It gave the activists

0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:53.319
<v Speaker 2>and advocates that opportunity to collect signatures. We had it

0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:56.600
<v Speaker 2>on the ballot, and we want overwhelmingly in Michigan. Just

0:38:56.680 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 2>like other states where the people have been given an

0:38:59.640 --> 0:39:02.600
<v Speaker 2>opportun way in they say, hell, yes, we expect to

0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.640
<v Speaker 2>have these rights, whether it's in Ohio or Kentucky, I

0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:10.480
<v Speaker 2>mean red states. But it's still very precarious. If you

0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:13.799
<v Speaker 2>look at the language in the Supreme Court opinions, whether

0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 2>it was the Miffey opinion or this new Idaho opinion

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:22.520
<v Speaker 2>where they can give emergency medical care, which was a

0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:25.879
<v Speaker 2>positive right that just came out. But if they say, well,

0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:27.920
<v Speaker 2>we're not going to do anything more on this. It's

0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:30.360
<v Speaker 2>a punt, which means it's still very much in play.

0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 2>And even in a state like Michigan or New York

0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:36.680
<v Speaker 2>or California, where we think that this is settled, it's not.

0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:37.719
<v Speaker 2>It's not.

0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.840
<v Speaker 1>So the Supreme Court doesn't really change in terms of

0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 1>who's on it anytime soon. Right? Can there be a

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:51.480
<v Speaker 1>federal law? And how likely would a federal law legalizing

0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:53.880
<v Speaker 1>abortion nationwide happen?

0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:57.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, we have to have a democratic majority of both

0:39:57.320 --> 0:40:00.680
<v Speaker 2>the House and the US Senate and president who would

0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:03.120
<v Speaker 2>sign the bill, which the only one running for president

0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:06.600
<v Speaker 2>right now is President Biden, who would actually sign a

0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:10.560
<v Speaker 2>bill that restores our reproductive freedom across this country?

0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.360
<v Speaker 1>But how likely would it be that that would pass

0:40:13.480 --> 0:40:16.839
<v Speaker 1>given the complement of the House and Senate, even on

0:40:16.880 --> 0:40:20.480
<v Speaker 1>a good day, even if the Democrats control both houses? Right? Is,

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 1>don't you need two thirds and you need a supermajority?

0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>And that's not in the foreseeable future, sadly, But I

0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.239
<v Speaker 2>would say that what is in the foreseeable future is

0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:36.040
<v Speaker 2>this next presidential election and the opportunity to appoint more

0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 2>justices and as these cases come back, whether it's someone

0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 2>who now does have standing or it's one of the

0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:46.040
<v Speaker 2>other procedural reasons that they didn't actually decide the merits

0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 2>of reproductive rights. Who's on that court really matters more

0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:51.919
<v Speaker 2>than ever, and the next president the next four years

0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:53.880
<v Speaker 2>may have a couple of appointments.

0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:56.960
<v Speaker 3>After this break.

0:40:57.080 --> 0:41:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Rereteus thoughts on recent ethical breaches at the Supreme Court.

0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:05.719
<v Speaker 1>In a word, she says, it's scary. She'll tell us

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:25.000
<v Speaker 1>why right after this. You know, I'm curious as a lawyer, Gretchen,

0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.279
<v Speaker 1>how you feel about the Supreme Court these days. You know,

0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:34.080
<v Speaker 1>they've gone down in terms of the level of respect

0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:38.040
<v Speaker 1>people feel or the trust they have in the High Court.

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:43.319
<v Speaker 1>Really weird stuff going on with Clarence Thomas ethically and

0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:47.320
<v Speaker 1>Samuel Alito flying the upside down flag that was really

0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.560
<v Speaker 1>the symbol for insurrectionists, even though his wife flew it.

0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:54.799
<v Speaker 1>It was their mutual domicile after all, I mean, what

0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:56.239
<v Speaker 1>the hell is going on with them?

0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:59.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Can we just talk about like Bob Menendez and

0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:06.399
<v Speaker 2>Justice a little boy, I mean their wives for yeah. Anyway, Yeah,

0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:12.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, I have I feel really really you know,

0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:15.320
<v Speaker 2>unsettled by everything that's happening with the Supreme Court, because

0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:19.280
<v Speaker 2>as a as a public servant, as someone who's taken

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:23.440
<v Speaker 2>oaths to the Michigan Constitution, the US Constitution, as a

0:42:23.560 --> 0:42:26.719
<v Speaker 2>lawyer who as an officer of the Court, I take

0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:31.239
<v Speaker 2>all of these ethics and responsibilities very seriously. I know

0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that confidence in our democratic institutions is plummeting, and now

0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:38.759
<v Speaker 2>that it applies to the Court as well, and it's

0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:42.680
<v Speaker 2>scary because those are the underpinnings of this democracy. And

0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:45.359
<v Speaker 2>if I'm not confident in the Court that I've been

0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:50.000
<v Speaker 2>raised and educated to revere, I don't know how how

0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:53.719
<v Speaker 2>anyone can be. And I think that's very worrisome. I'd

0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>love to see the Court actually have some ethics laws

0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:59.239
<v Speaker 2>that they have to follow and they get held accountable

0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:02.000
<v Speaker 2>to because I think this is just really corrosive for

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:03.359
<v Speaker 2>our democracy.

0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:05.719
<v Speaker 1>And I guess they made an attempt to, but they

0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:08.680
<v Speaker 1>really didn't have any teeth. Jodi Kanter did a lot

0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:10.440
<v Speaker 1>of reporting on this for The New York Times, and

0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:14.080
<v Speaker 1>I interviewed her and she said that these ethics laws

0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:18.680
<v Speaker 1>basically didn't have any meat to them. And it seems

0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:22.920
<v Speaker 1>to me like it's high time for these justices to

0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:26.839
<v Speaker 1>be held to account for some of their behavior. And

0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:32.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they're so biased obviously, And I don't know,

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:34.440
<v Speaker 1>how do you find a Supreme Court justice in this

0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:37.960
<v Speaker 1>day and age that isn't biased one way or another, right?

0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, And I think you know the fact that they

0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:43.840
<v Speaker 2>went into Congress and said that Roe was the settled

0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:48.440
<v Speaker 2>law of the land. They flat out wide to Congress.

0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:52.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's really stunning when you step back and

0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:55.359
<v Speaker 2>think about all the different ways that the standards and

0:43:55.360 --> 0:43:58.759
<v Speaker 2>the ethics and confidence in these institutions has been eroded.

0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.520
<v Speaker 2>When you've got three appointees who say one thing and

0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:08.920
<v Speaker 2>do the other and betrayed the people, it's really destructive.

0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:11.320
<v Speaker 1>But it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime

0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:14.759
<v Speaker 1>soon because how old is the oldest justice? I have

0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:18.120
<v Speaker 1>to look this up, But doesn't seem like anyone or

0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:22.000
<v Speaker 1>any of them are particularly near retirement, does it?

0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Well? In Washington, do you see the average age of

0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 2>services quite old? So?

0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Right, So, I don't maybe the legislative thing, which seems

0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:35.440
<v Speaker 1>unlikely too. So we're kind of in a bit of

0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:38.360
<v Speaker 1>a bind when it comes to abortion rights.

0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Right and yet where we are isn't locked, and it

0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:43.880
<v Speaker 2>could definitely slide backwards. And I think that's the big

0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:46.799
<v Speaker 2>concern that I have talking to Michigan Anders who work

0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:49.279
<v Speaker 2>so hard to get us on the right side of

0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:53.000
<v Speaker 2>this issue now to know it could all be for

0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:56.680
<v Speaker 2>naught with you know, a future Supreme Court ruling.

0:44:56.920 --> 0:44:59.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I know that you are part of President by

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Re election campaign, but I wanted to ask you about

0:45:03.160 --> 0:45:07.280
<v Speaker 1>something he said during the twenty twenty election. In twenty twenty,

0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden appeared at a campaign stop and he was

0:45:12.719 --> 0:45:17.320
<v Speaker 1>with you, Kamala Harris, and Corey Booker, and he said

0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 1>he viewed himself as a bridge, not as anything else.

0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:25.400
<v Speaker 1>I interviewed Vice President Harris not too long ago, and

0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:28.560
<v Speaker 1>I said, Hey, did you think that bridge was going

0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:31.760
<v Speaker 1>to take four years to build or eight years to build?

0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Because I think a lot of people really did think

0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.000
<v Speaker 1>that Joe Biden, given his age, was going to be

0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:39.000
<v Speaker 1>a one term president.

0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:40.320
<v Speaker 3>WTF.

0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Gretchen Whitmer, you know, I remember we were on that stage.

0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.200
<v Speaker 2>It was actually the last rally of the whole campaign

0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:52.680
<v Speaker 2>because COVID, the first two cases in COVID came the

0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:55.080
<v Speaker 2>night of the election in Michigan, and that's why he

0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:59.240
<v Speaker 2>was there. We were having our primary and I remember

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:02.680
<v Speaker 2>it vividly because we were all, you know, hugging one

0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:05.439
<v Speaker 2>another but not shaking hands. And it just like makes

0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:07.200
<v Speaker 2>me cringe thinking about it because we didn't know its

0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:11.720
<v Speaker 2>respiratorially spread to talking to one another but shaking hands.

0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:15.080
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, I'm glad you didn't get him sick.

0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh God, But you know, I do think that that

0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:24.400
<v Speaker 2>was that was what he communicated. He has gotten so

0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.600
<v Speaker 2>much done in four years. He's got he wants to

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:31.160
<v Speaker 2>continue the work for the next four The field is set.

0:46:31.239 --> 0:46:33.200
<v Speaker 2>I know people keep saying, well what about this one?

0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:36.320
<v Speaker 2>About that? The field is set, and we've got a

0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:38.720
<v Speaker 2>very stark choice in front of us in this country.

0:46:38.760 --> 0:46:42.520
<v Speaker 2>And the good news is future in future elections. There's

0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:46.840
<v Speaker 2>a very deep bench of incredibly talented democratic leaders in

0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:50.080
<v Speaker 2>this country right now. I think about all of my colleagues,

0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:58.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, everyone from from Joshapiro to Wesmore to Michelle

0:46:58.520 --> 0:47:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Leuhan Grisham to you know, Gavin Newsome, JB. Pritzker.

0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:05.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's Mitch Landrew kind of seemed Mitch Landry

0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:09.560
<v Speaker 1>semi interested when I asked it the other day. Gina,

0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:11.360
<v Speaker 1>I hear her name often.

0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:14.000
<v Speaker 2>It's I mean, it really is a deep bench of

0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:16.680
<v Speaker 2>incredibly talented people, deeper than we've had in a long time.

0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:19.919
<v Speaker 2>So I think it's exciting to think about what does

0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:22.799
<v Speaker 2>the next the next one look like. But right now

0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:26.440
<v Speaker 2>we got a stark choice. So that's WTF, Katie.

0:47:27.560 --> 0:47:31.120
<v Speaker 1>One person you left out of that list was Gretchen Whitmer.

0:47:31.640 --> 0:47:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm honored to be included with that group.

0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:37.560
<v Speaker 1>I do think that whenever I think of future leaders,

0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:42.160
<v Speaker 1>inevitably your name comes up, which is a really nice compliment,

0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:47.560
<v Speaker 1>and you know, an incredible show of support. And you know,

0:47:48.040 --> 0:47:50.680
<v Speaker 1>obviously you're not gonna tell me, yes, Katie, I'm running

0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty eight and i'd like to announce it

0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:56.400
<v Speaker 1>on your podcast, But you know, does it appeal to

0:47:56.440 --> 0:48:00.000
<v Speaker 1>you this idea of potentially one day running for president?

0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:05.400
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, that's a huge, huge thing, And you know,

0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.759
<v Speaker 1>given some of the threats on your life already and

0:48:08.800 --> 0:48:14.120
<v Speaker 1>your family and just the grueling nature of running for

0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:18.440
<v Speaker 1>president for any person, man or woman, how do you

0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:21.240
<v Speaker 1>think about it right now? I know it's in the future,

0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:23.960
<v Speaker 1>and I'm not this is not a gotcha question. I'm

0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:26.200
<v Speaker 1>not trying to pin you down, but I'm just curious,

0:48:26.360 --> 0:48:29.520
<v Speaker 1>as as a person who believes deeply in public service.

0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:31.800
<v Speaker 1>How you think about it, Well.

0:48:31.760 --> 0:48:33.879
<v Speaker 2>The truth is I'm not thinking about it right now.

0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:36.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm really not, and i don't know what happens. I've

0:48:36.480 --> 0:48:39.400
<v Speaker 2>got two and a half more years of being governor.

0:48:40.000 --> 0:48:42.840
<v Speaker 2>We've got to get through this crucial election. Got a

0:48:42.880 --> 0:48:45.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of work that I want to get done. You know,

0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:49.239
<v Speaker 2>the possibility of that is something that is an overwhelming

0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:52.840
<v Speaker 2>thought that would have to be, you know, given the

0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:56.120
<v Speaker 2>proper attention and consideration. And I'm not in any position

0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:59.160
<v Speaker 2>to do that right now. So when people say what

0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:00.680
<v Speaker 2>are you going to do after yours on being governor?

0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:02.520
<v Speaker 2>I like to say, I'm want to walk the earth

0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>for a year and figure out what it is I

0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:07.560
<v Speaker 2>want to do next. I say that kind of joking,

0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.239
<v Speaker 2>but I do care about where we are. I do

0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.759
<v Speaker 2>want to be a part of a solution making room,

0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:16.680
<v Speaker 2>at the table for voices that haven't always been there.

0:49:17.160 --> 0:49:20.080
<v Speaker 2>And if I've got something to contribute, whether it's you know,

0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:22.880
<v Speaker 2>as a candidate or as a supporter of a great candidate,

0:49:23.560 --> 0:49:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to stay engaged one way or another.

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.840
<v Speaker 1>I also think, like, if your head's not in the

0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:31.200
<v Speaker 1>game for what you're doing right now, You've got a

0:49:31.320 --> 0:49:35.160
<v Speaker 1>huge role, a lot of responsibility. If you're thinking too

0:49:35.239 --> 0:49:38.320
<v Speaker 1>much about the future, you're going to screw up the present, right.

0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, you can't take your eye off the ball.

0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:45.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean, these are heavy duty jobs and people are

0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:47.279
<v Speaker 2>relying on us. Yeah.

0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:50.799
<v Speaker 1>And one thing people are relying on you, Governor, is

0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.080
<v Speaker 1>to help Joe Biden win the state of Michigan. And

0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:58.280
<v Speaker 1>right now President Biden and former President Trump are running

0:49:58.320 --> 0:50:01.239
<v Speaker 1>neck and neck there. How are you going to do that?

0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've told everyone, don't clutch your pearls when we're

0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:07.440
<v Speaker 2>down two points, don't celebrate when we're up due points.

0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Just make peace with the fact that this is going

0:50:09.600 --> 0:50:12.000
<v Speaker 2>to be close all the way through the election. I

0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:16.080
<v Speaker 2>always remind people months out before my reelect, everyone was

0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:18.680
<v Speaker 2>right in my political obituary, Katie, and they said they

0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:21.640
<v Speaker 2>don't no way was that woman from Michigan who locked

0:50:21.680 --> 0:50:24.680
<v Speaker 2>people down and Democrat in the White House. No way,

0:50:24.680 --> 0:50:27.120
<v Speaker 2>because you get re elected in a state like Michigan,

0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:30.360
<v Speaker 2>and I ended up winning by almost eleven points because

0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:32.680
<v Speaker 2>we showed up and we got into every community. And

0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:35.319
<v Speaker 2>that's the kind of work that we're continuing to do

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:39.279
<v Speaker 2>and on behalf of President Biden. You know people are

0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:45.240
<v Speaker 2>They're good, hard working people. They're busy, They're not consuming

0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.439
<v Speaker 2>information the way that you and I are. They've got

0:50:48.440 --> 0:50:51.200
<v Speaker 2>to get the kids off to school, get to the job,

0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:54.080
<v Speaker 2>get the bills paid. I mean, people are trying to

0:50:54.160 --> 0:50:56.080
<v Speaker 2>get by. It's a hard time for a lot of.

0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:58.400
<v Speaker 1>Folks in the cost of living. Do you think President

0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Biden is really focused in off on the price of

0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:04.840
<v Speaker 1>groceries and gas, because that seems to be to me

0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:09.680
<v Speaker 1>an animating factor in how people are feeling right now

0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:11.120
<v Speaker 1>about these two candidates.

0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:14.840
<v Speaker 2>I think you can't tell someone how to feel. You

0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:18.400
<v Speaker 2>can't change the stress that someone's feeling in their household

0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:21.040
<v Speaker 2>budget by saying, well, look at we've got historically low

0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:25.160
<v Speaker 2>unemployment and take home wages and our economies better than

0:51:25.160 --> 0:51:28.560
<v Speaker 2>other countries. That doesn't make them feel better. We've got

0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:30.560
<v Speaker 2>to ask what is it that you need? What can

0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:33.200
<v Speaker 2>we do? And did you know that the president has

0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:35.480
<v Speaker 2>helped you keep more money in your pocket because of

0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:38.800
<v Speaker 2>all these investments that he's making, whether it's in infrastructure,

0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:41.680
<v Speaker 2>or it's in clean energy, or it's in debt relief.

0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:44.279
<v Speaker 2>And so I think drawing those connections are going to

0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:46.759
<v Speaker 2>be really crucial for us as we're going into the

0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:49.560
<v Speaker 2>next few months. But it's going to be tense and

0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:50.799
<v Speaker 2>we've got a lot of work to do.

0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Michigan has the largest population of air of American and

0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Muslim voters, many of them strongly opposed President Biden's handling

0:51:59.600 --> 0:52:04.040
<v Speaker 1>of Israel Hamas war. I know you've been talking, and

0:52:04.120 --> 0:52:07.799
<v Speaker 1>I know you've made great efforts to reach out to

0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:11.719
<v Speaker 1>the Arab American community in your state, But how concerned

0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:16.840
<v Speaker 1>are you not only Gretchen about how they'll be voting

0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:20.080
<v Speaker 1>in Michigan, but also about young people. You know, it's

0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:22.760
<v Speaker 1>interesting a lot of polls show the economy is still

0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:26.319
<v Speaker 1>top of mind for young people. But you know, if

0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:30.600
<v Speaker 1>you look at the protests on college campuses and this

0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:35.480
<v Speaker 1>wedge that this war has put into place, not only

0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:40.839
<v Speaker 1>within the Democratic Party but almost generationally, how worried are

0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:46.000
<v Speaker 1>you about all those things coming together and hurting the president.

0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:51.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm concerned. I definitely see the path through Michigan,

0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and we're working hard to ensure that we earn the

0:52:55.480 --> 0:53:00.560
<v Speaker 2>support of all of these communities. I know that a

0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Trump Part two would make things measurably worse, and I

0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:07.360
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of people know that, whether it was

0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:10.960
<v Speaker 2>around the Muslim ban or how he talks about, you know,

0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:15.359
<v Speaker 2>the war that's playing out in Gaza with Israel, that

0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:18.800
<v Speaker 2>we know that he represents something that would make actually

0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:22.920
<v Speaker 2>the situation worse. All that being said, we've got to

0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:24.480
<v Speaker 2>recognize that there are a lot of people that are

0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:27.200
<v Speaker 2>hurt in right now. In Michigan. We've got a huge

0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:31.000
<v Speaker 2>contention of Arab American voters, many of whom are also

0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Muslim voters, some of whom are also Palestinians. They're not

0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:40.359
<v Speaker 2>all one monolithic group, but most are one or two

0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.120
<v Speaker 2>degrees of separation from someone who's died in the fighting,

0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 2>someone who's trying to feed their family still over in Gaza.

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.440
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of guilt being here and sadness that

0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:54.640
<v Speaker 2>American dollars are going into, you know, the pain that

0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:57.839
<v Speaker 2>their loved ones are feeling over there. Also say, we've

0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 2>got a robust Jewish community her gosh.

0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:05.640
<v Speaker 1>While straddling those two groups and thinking dialectically, which is

0:54:05.719 --> 0:54:11.680
<v Speaker 1>increasingly hard to find, yes and thinking must be really difficult.

0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:15.120
<v Speaker 2>It is. And these are communities that have lived in

0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:19.600
<v Speaker 2>harmony for decades in Michigan, who've always been both have

0:54:19.680 --> 0:54:22.520
<v Speaker 2>always been a part of the coalition that I've been

0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:27.239
<v Speaker 2>fortunate to have the support of, and so I do

0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.399
<v Speaker 2>think that there's more work to do with a lot

0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.120
<v Speaker 2>of these voters. I think we will earn back the

0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:35.600
<v Speaker 2>support of most of them, but I think that we're

0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:37.279
<v Speaker 2>going to need to earn support of a lot of

0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:40.560
<v Speaker 2>new voters too, And young people, like you said, are

0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:45.120
<v Speaker 2>they see the humanitarian crisis playing out and they're very

0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:48.960
<v Speaker 2>upset about it. My own kids, I've had conversations, you know,

0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:52.279
<v Speaker 2>hard conversations with to know that they are feeling very

0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:55.400
<v Speaker 2>empathetic and sad and demoralized and angry about, you know,

0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:57.920
<v Speaker 2>the violence that they're seeing playing out every day. So

0:54:58.000 --> 0:55:00.239
<v Speaker 2>I think that my job in Michigan is to make

0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:03.520
<v Speaker 2>sure both these communities feel seen, heard and supported and

0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:08.200
<v Speaker 2>safe here at home, but also to try to find

0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:12.239
<v Speaker 2>to bridge that divide. And it takes a lot of work,

0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:15.480
<v Speaker 2>but it starts with hard conversations and continues with.

0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Them and a lot of listening. I imagine too, right.

0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Listening as a superpower, Katie. I've learned so much from

0:55:21.560 --> 0:55:24.040
<v Speaker 2>people if you ask them what they need, what they want,

0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.200
<v Speaker 2>or what's going on in their lives. They will tell you,

0:55:26.800 --> 0:55:29.239
<v Speaker 2>and politicians who make the mistake of not doing that,

0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:34.439
<v Speaker 2>I think are missing, missing the plot, missing what's really

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:36.600
<v Speaker 2>happening with people and the ability to help them.

0:55:36.920 --> 0:55:39.879
<v Speaker 1>Gretchen Whitmer, The book is true, Gretch. What I've learned

0:55:39.880 --> 0:55:43.239
<v Speaker 1>about life, leadership and everything in between has been such

0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:46.000
<v Speaker 1>a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Thank you.

0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it.

0:55:54.840 --> 0:55:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:00.960
<v Speaker 1>a subject you want us to cover, or you want

0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:03.960
<v Speaker 1>to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy

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<v Speaker 1>world reach out. You can leave a short message at

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0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:13.879
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0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:17.040
<v Speaker 1>love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:21.640
<v Speaker 1>of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx,

0:56:27.239 --> 0:56:32.120
<v Speaker 1>and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

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