Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Joe Biden appeared on
Speaker 1: a Michigan stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and my
Speaker 1: guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2: Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.
Speaker 2: There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me.
Speaker 1: They are the future of this country.
Speaker 2: They're the people who are going to.
Speaker 1: Many people took that to mean that he'd be one
Speaker 1: term president. With his re election campaign and crisis. Coming
Speaker 1: off a rough debate performance in June, some people are
Speaker 1: scratching their heads, asking was the bridge going to take
Speaker 1: this long to build? When I talked to just about
Speaker 1: anyone about the future of politics, Gretchen Whitmer's name inevitably
Speaker 1: comes up. Her leadership in Michigan has protected reproductive rights
Speaker 1: and kept the state together through the darkest days of COVID,
Speaker 1: during which she withstood some pretty nasty comments by then
Speaker 1: President Trump. You'll hear more about that in a minute.
Speaker 1: The Whitmer roots run deep in state politics. Her father
Speaker 1: was a part of two Michigan governor's administrations. And her
Speaker 1: grandfather was superintendent of schools when integration led to protests,
Speaker 1: bus bombings, and kkk rallies. One of her family's mottos,
Speaker 1: the Whitmers have quote, short memories and thick skins. Gretchen
Speaker 1: also likes to say listening is a superpower. Those qualities
Speaker 1: have helped her stay connected to her constituents and focus
Speaker 1: on the big issues they care about. But in this
Speaker 1: deeply divided country, she's face forces that don't want her
Speaker 1: to succeed, and worse, she was the target of a
Speaker 1: pretty harrowing kidnapping plot, which she also talks about in
Speaker 1: our conversation. It's a bit of a cliche, I know,
Speaker 1: but I think it's safe to say Gretchen Whitmer is
Speaker 1: one to watch, part of the new generation of leaders
Speaker 1: to whom the baton will be passed, and for those
Speaker 1: who are angry about the so called garontocracy we have now,
Speaker 1: she seems poised to take on an even bigger job
Speaker 1: than the governor of Michigan. On a personal note, I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed our time together. She is refreshingly candid and
Speaker 1: easy to talk to, even when it comes to some
Speaker 1: pretty embarrassing moments. Here's our conversation, recorded in Aspen, Colorado,
Speaker 1: during the Ideas Festival. Gretchen Whitmer, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: We're doing this from Aspen, Colorado, a beautiful place, although
Speaker 1: sadly it's raining a little today, but you'll have to
Speaker 1: come back to Aspen and spend some time here.
Speaker 2: I would love to I'd love to ski, so I'd
Speaker 2: like to come in the winter.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you should. You should is fabulous here,
Speaker 1: and I'm a really terrible skier, so I can say
Speaker 1: from my friends who know how to ski, we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking. Governor whit Murphy, I call you Gretchen
Speaker 1: because I kind of feel like Gretchen Katie is more comfortable.
Speaker 1: You have written a book called True Gretch what I've
Speaker 1: learned about life, leadership and everything in between. I'm curious,
Speaker 1: why now, Why was this something you wanted to do
Speaker 1: at this moment in time.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the questions that I get asked the most,
Speaker 2: whether I'm traveling in Michigan or outside of the state,
Speaker 2: is with all the heavy stuff, the threats and the
Speaker 2: ugliness and pandemics and flooding and protests, how do I
Speaker 2: say positive? Why do I want to keep doing this job,
Speaker 2: and I think that this is a heavy year. People
Speaker 2: are feeling lots of emotions, lots of strife and struggle,
Speaker 2: and the political rhetoric is hot, and I thought, if
Speaker 2: I can put something light out into the world, right now,
Speaker 2: that's what it's all about. So these are ten things
Speaker 2: I've learned over the course of my life. Different I
Speaker 2: tell stories about when I learned them and how I
Speaker 2: use these lessons to get through these last six years
Speaker 2: as governor of Michigan. And if I give you a laugh,
Speaker 2: or there's a little inspiration, or it's just some light
Speaker 2: reading and the heavy time, that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that it's designed in some ways
Speaker 1: to introduce you to an audience and for people really
Speaker 1: to get to know you, because you're very honest about
Speaker 1: a lot of things.
Speaker 3: Gretchen, Well, I guess.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a perfect person, and I've learned
Speaker 2: things from my own mistakes or learned things from wiser
Speaker 2: people than I am, and have really been able to,
Speaker 2: I think, grow through some of those struggles. And if
Speaker 2: there's a lesson that I've learned that might make someone's
Speaker 2: day a little easier help them navigate something, then I've
Speaker 2: accomplished what I set out to do.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being honest and vulnerable in this book.
Speaker 1: You know, I wrote a memoir a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and I was extremely transparent about, you know, my accomplishments,
Speaker 1: things I was proud of, but also my flaw us
Speaker 1: and things that I regretted or wish I had done better.
Speaker 1: And I ended up getting mightily criticized for those things.
Speaker 1: But why do you think it's important for leaders, and
Speaker 1: maybe particularly women leaders, to be honest about their journey
Speaker 1: and some of the mistakes they've made along the way.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm lucky that there were women who
Speaker 2: came before me who made it easier for me to
Speaker 2: show up as myself and to be that honest. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a recent article that Rebecca Traster wrote, and she
Speaker 2: wrote about how Jennifer Granholm, the first governor of Michigan,
Speaker 2: who is now our energy secretary, how she'd cut her
Speaker 2: hair short and tried to you know, not.
Speaker 1: Kind of masculate, masculate herself, if that's a word.
Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly. And I think that because she and
Speaker 2: people like Hillary Clinton came before and took so much heat.
Speaker 2: It's made it easier for people in my generation to
Speaker 2: show up as we are. And I'm hoping that the
Speaker 2: things that I've had to navigate, the generation comes after
Speaker 2: me doesn't have to. And I think that's why talking
Speaker 2: about it, really identifying it, and being authentic and showing
Speaker 2: up that way is important, and showing people that you
Speaker 2: are not a perfect person and that you're here better
Speaker 2: than anyone else.
Speaker 1: And in a way it gives other women permission to
Speaker 1: not be perfect exactly, because that's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1: Let's face it, because no one is.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your life. You were
Speaker 1: born in Lansing in nineteen seventy one. Politics. I learned
Speaker 1: so much about you by the way in this book,
Speaker 1: and I thought I knew a fair amount about you.
Speaker 1: But it was a family business. Your mom was a Democrat.
Speaker 1: She was a lawyer and served as assistant Attorney general.
Speaker 1: Your dad, meanwhile, was a Republican and served in Governor
Speaker 1: Milliken's cabinet before becoming an insurance executive. Looking back, was
Speaker 1: it a foregone conclusion growing up with these two figures
Speaker 1: obviously in your life, that you'd go into politics.
Speaker 2: God, No, no, no, I mean did their service turn
Speaker 2: you often anyway? No public service that you know. Their
Speaker 2: generations of my family have been in public service. And
Speaker 2: at the end of the book, I talk about my
Speaker 2: grandfather who was a superintendent during court ordered bussing and
Speaker 2: had the ku Klux Klan target his house and bomb
Speaker 2: buses in Pontiac, Michigan while he was superintendent. So I
Speaker 2: always revered public service, but I thought I was going
Speaker 2: to be a sports broadcaster, to be honest.
Speaker 3: Yes, they were very funny man.
Speaker 2: You know ESPN. When I was growing up. I love sports.
Speaker 2: Went to Michigan State to do with that, and it
Speaker 2: was my dad who said, you know, the capital is
Speaker 2: right down the street. So few people understand how state
Speaker 2: government works. Why don't you apply for an internship and
Speaker 2: see if you can get one and just check it out.
Speaker 2: Maybe you hate it, but you've had an opportunity. Maybe
Speaker 2: you love it. And that was really great advice. I
Speaker 2: got involved and passionate about public policy and really changed
Speaker 2: the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1: I feel like every young person, honestly, and I regret
Speaker 1: not doing that to be an intern in some form
Speaker 1: of government, because I think part of the problem in
Speaker 1: Gretchen is so many people really don't truly understand how
Speaker 1: government works. Civics education has been kind of not necessarily prioritized.
Speaker 1: Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, that was her big fight
Speaker 1: in the later years of her life. And I think
Speaker 1: there's nothing like seeing government at work with your very
Speaker 1: own eyes.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I think that we need to
Speaker 2: do better in terms of civic education, for sure. I
Speaker 2: think that it's easy to undermine the institutions of our
Speaker 2: democracy when people don't know, or don't trust, or don't
Speaker 2: understand how it works. So giving people that exposure it
Speaker 2: was a great suggestion of my father's. I've made the
Speaker 2: same suggestion to both my girls because I want them
Speaker 2: to also be, you know, consumers of information and active
Speaker 2: in their in their government, whether it's they hold office
Speaker 2: one day, which I doubt either one of them will do, yeah,
Speaker 2: or it is just simply as a citizen or business
Speaker 2: owner or whatever their path is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as safe works exactly. I think as a citizen
Speaker 1: where we all have that responsibility. I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you about the fact that your parents had a mixed marriage,
Speaker 1: so to speak. Right, your dad was a Republican. Your
Speaker 1: mom was a Democrat. I know they ultimately divorced when
Speaker 1: you were just six years old. But how do you
Speaker 1: think being exposed to different political perspectives shaped you, Because
Speaker 1: it's very unusual. Only twenty one percent of marriages today
Speaker 1: are mixed party, according to the American Family Survey.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it tells you a lot about where
Speaker 2: the parties have gone over the years. Right, my father,
Speaker 2: It's really funny. He was a part of the Milligan
Speaker 2: and Romney administrations in Michigan. Romney, of course, the name
Speaker 2: everyone knows.
Speaker 1: Yes, amidst dad, Right, it's dad, George Romney, Right, George
Speaker 1: Romney exactly.
Speaker 2: But it was a time when the Republican Party they
Speaker 2: you know, there were a lot of pro choice people
Speaker 2: in the Republican Party. They were Milliken was a great environmentalist.
Speaker 2: Protecting the Great Lakes was something that he was very
Speaker 2: passionate about equal housing. I mean, it was a different time,
Speaker 2: But I do think that one of the lessons that
Speaker 2: I've always taken with me and all offices I've held
Speaker 2: is that no one person or one party has all
Speaker 2: the answers that we've got to be able to talk
Speaker 2: to one another and you're never going to find what
Speaker 2: you can agree on if you're not even talking to
Speaker 2: each other. And I think part of the discouragement that
Speaker 2: people have, justifiably is they look at what's going on
Speaker 2: in our politics and it's so personal, it's so ugly.
Speaker 2: It's sometimes terrifying, you know. I talk about the all
Speaker 2: the threats that have become normalized in today's politics in America.
Speaker 1: So scary, right, And I'm going to talk to you
Speaker 1: about that in a moment, and also about polarization. But
Speaker 1: I do want to touch on a little bit about
Speaker 1: your teenage years, because you describe yourself as a bit
Speaker 1: of a hellien as a teenager, drinking and getting suspended
Speaker 1: from school. You even tell Gretchen one pretty cringe story
Speaker 1: of throwing up on your high school principle after he
Speaker 1: discovered you you drunk in the parking lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, moment. And I would have killed
Speaker 2: my daughter. So if they'd done anything that stupid. But
Speaker 2: you know, I was.
Speaker 3: I ran with a fast ground in high school.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun, Katie. It sounds like it,
Speaker 2: but it also you know, I wasn't particularly challenged or
Speaker 2: interested in what I was you know, learning in school.
Speaker 2: And it was that moment. You know, I got in
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble. I was suspended, my mother wanted
Speaker 2: to kill me. And the worst thing is my dad
Speaker 2: goes silent when he's angry. I'm a little more like
Speaker 2: my dad. Yeah, and I'm like that too.
Speaker 3: Not a good not a good treat.
Speaker 2: By the way, a silent parent who's a.
Speaker 1: Silent treatment is not a good way to go.
Speaker 2: But you know, I really got my ag together after that.
Speaker 2: I became the most improved student. I got an award
Speaker 2: for that, and later in high school and went out
Speaker 2: to Michigan State, which was a very much in doubt
Speaker 2: if I could get in at one point in high school.
Speaker 1: Oh really, But so academically you weren't particularly strong.
Speaker 2: No, I was not disciplined. I had all the raw materials,
Speaker 2: but it was not disciplined in the slightest. And I
Speaker 2: started to get my stride in college. And then law
Speaker 2: school is when it really clicked for me. I loved
Speaker 2: law school. I graduated summa cum laude and was loved it.
Speaker 2: Finally was challenged and focused and surrounded by people who
Speaker 2: were similarly motivated.
Speaker 1: This should give hope to anyone who's got a bit
Speaker 1: of a Hellian as a teenager right now that he
Speaker 1: or she is not necessarily lost cause, right, absolutely, But
Speaker 1: it did create some tension with your mom. You write
Speaker 1: about that, right.
Speaker 2: She wanted to kill me, And like I said, if
Speaker 2: either of my daughters had been that difficulty, I would
Speaker 2: have felt the same exact way. But ultimately went to
Speaker 2: college and she became one of my very best friends.
Speaker 2: And you know, I talk a little bit about the
Speaker 2: time in my life that I think really forged who
Speaker 2: I am today, and I became a Sandwich generation member
Speaker 2: in my late twenties, my mom was dying of brain cancer.
Speaker 2: I had just given birth to my first child and
Speaker 2: was both of their primary caregiver, and it was that
Speaker 2: experience I think that really made who I am today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I read about that, and I'm so sorry because
Speaker 1: she was just fifty nine when she died, and you
Speaker 1: were thirty one, as you said, with just one daughter
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: Two month old.
Speaker 1: Yet two month old when she passed away. So how
Speaker 1: long was she sick, Gretchen?
Speaker 2: You know, the prognosis was four to six months, and
Speaker 2: she lived for about eighteen And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: having that child to look forward to was a motive
Speaker 2: was helpful for her to keep her spirits up. But
Speaker 2: we had good healthcare, she had a supportive family, and
Speaker 2: she had a heck of a wonderful attay to like
Speaker 2: she was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I read in your book she was kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, cracking jokes and being funny and sort of
Speaker 1: I guess had a bit of a mischievous personality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we talked about Gallows humor. Like you know,
Speaker 2: I talked to my mom's sister a few years ago
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and she's the closest thing I have
Speaker 2: to my mom. And I just said, Aunt, Betsy, you know,
Speaker 2: if my mom were here, what would she say to
Speaker 2: me right now? And she said, I don't know what
Speaker 2: she would say, Gretchen, but you're so much like her.
Speaker 2: You can find something humorous even in the darkest, hardest moment,
Speaker 2: and that is a huge superpower. And I thought that
Speaker 2: was really the nicest thing that I could have heard
Speaker 2: in that moment.
Speaker 1: And it's nice that you got that from your mom. Right.
Speaker 1: And another thing you got is that you often wear
Speaker 1: bright pink. I guess you'd call it fusia, right, And
Speaker 1: you're wearing fuscha pants today because that was your mom's
Speaker 1: favorite color.
Speaker 2: She loved it. She was, you know, at the Attorney
Speaker 2: General's office and one of her colleagues she'd worn a pink,
Speaker 2: bright pink blaze her to work and she was getting
Speaker 2: ready to go to court and one of the colleagues said,
Speaker 2: you can't wear pink to court, Sherry, And she said,
Speaker 2: Fusta is my power color and went off. And you know,
Speaker 2: I had a spectacular showing in court. And I always
Speaker 2: love that story. But she loved pink. And when I
Speaker 2: kicked off my campaign, the women's marches were happening. We
Speaker 2: all were showing up with our pink hats on. So
Speaker 2: pink'spen this kind of interesting theme. And as the mom
Speaker 2: of two.
Speaker 1: Daughters, one named Sherry, yeah, after your mom.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, it's kind of a color that makes me
Speaker 2: happy and feel energized and strong.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I like pink too. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about twenty thirteen. You were serving as Michigan's Senate minority leader,
Speaker 1: and that year state Republicans tried to push through a
Speaker 1: bill requiring women in Michigan to buy extra health insurance
Speaker 1: for abortion coverage. It was rape insurance as you called it.
Speaker 1: On the day the bill came up for a vote,
Speaker 1: you tossed aside your prepared remarks.
Speaker 2: Why, well, I had an internal strife going. I was
Speaker 2: getting ready to speak. We had a situation where the
Speaker 2: majority party, the Republicans, would not hold a single hearing,
Speaker 2: let women testify, let doctors and nurses testify, like no conversation.
Speaker 2: They just wanted to jam through this new policy. And
Speaker 2: I thought, I have a MIC, I need to use it.
Speaker 2: And I was trying to talk my colleague into telling
Speaker 2: his and his wife story. I thought maybe that would
Speaker 2: engender some sympathy or at least open up some minds.
Speaker 2: They'd been desperately wanting a family. She'd gone through IVF.
Speaker 2: It didn't you know, she had a miscarriage, but it
Speaker 2: wasn't complete, and so she had to go to the
Speaker 2: hospital to have an abortion. Call it a DNC, but
Speaker 2: it's an abortion. And had the law been what it
Speaker 2: was that they were pushing through the thirty thousand dollars
Speaker 2: hospital bill would not have been covered by their insurance.
Speaker 2: Was desperately wanted pregnancy. And I asked him if he
Speaker 2: could tell the story, and he couldn't. It was just
Speaker 2: too recent and too hard. Yeah. I remember walking back
Speaker 2: to my desk thinking, God, how can I ask him
Speaker 2: to bear himself to the world when I too have
Speaker 2: a story that might resonate with people. And so I
Speaker 2: decided to share the story for the first time publicly
Speaker 2: that I was raped when I was in college as
Speaker 2: a freshman. And I grabbed two of my staff people,
Speaker 2: one woman, one man, and I said, I shared with
Speaker 2: him what had happened. I said, I think thinking about
Speaker 2: telling this on the floor and the woman I worked
Speaker 2: with said, don't do it. You're not going to change
Speaker 2: a single vote. She wanted to protect me because she
Speaker 2: knew she was savvy, she knew what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: And the man said, I have no advice. You got
Speaker 2: to do what you think the right thing to do is.
Speaker 2: You know. They're both shocked. And I told the story
Speaker 2: and it didn't change a damn vote. Katie, and I
Speaker 2: remember after the vote came, one of the guys on
Speaker 2: the other side of the aisle came up to me
Speaker 2: and said, you're so brave. My wife too was raped
Speaker 2: when she was in college, and I wish I could
Speaker 2: have voted with you. And I heard that from him,
Speaker 2: and I just was like, you've just acknowledged that I
Speaker 2: cast the right boat, and you wish you could have,
Speaker 2: but you didn't. And it was gutting. But by the
Speaker 2: next morning I got into the office and we'd had
Speaker 2: hundreds of phone calls and emails and faxes. This was
Speaker 2: ten years ago, so faxes were quite a thing. And
Speaker 2: that's when I realized, Okay, I laid myself bare, but
Speaker 2: I gave voice to something that needed to be given
Speaker 2: and people felt seen and heard and represented, and that
Speaker 2: was for me, the good part of doing it. And
Speaker 2: ten years later, we kept the fight up, and as
Speaker 2: governor of Michigan, I got to sign the repeal of
Speaker 2: that long the ten year anniversary of.
Speaker 1: It, which was so awesome as a woman who believes
Speaker 1: deeply in reproductive rights. Thank you for that, well, thank you.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a good opportunity to show people
Speaker 2: that these fights are heard. It can feel very demoralizing
Speaker 2: and discouraging, but we're right on these issues and we
Speaker 2: can win them. It might take longer than it should, though,
Speaker 2: but we can win them.
Speaker 1: When we come back. Gretchen's time and Trump's Twitter crosshairs,
Speaker 1: I've been there too. Trump called me a has been,
Speaker 1: but I'm still here. Donald Moore after the break. If
Speaker 1: you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown
Speaker 1: of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness
Speaker 1: and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake
Speaker 1: Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you about the abortion landscape in a moment,
Speaker 1: but first I want to talk to you about being
Speaker 1: elected as governor of Michigan. That was in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: Two years later, the pandemic started and your state was
Speaker 1: one of the hardest hit. You write in a not
Speaker 1: very flattering way about what President Trump did during that time,
Speaker 1: which is really frustrating even reading it in retrospect. Of
Speaker 1: course we heard about this at the time, But can
Speaker 1: you describe sort of the kind of hunger Games environment.
Speaker 1: I think actually you described it in a cruel hunger
Speaker 1: Game style scramble for equipment, So tell us what that
Speaker 1: was like and what was going on at that moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to remember, right, COVID has really I think.
Speaker 1: It feels like yesterday, and it feels like, you know,
Speaker 1: thousand years ago exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we at the beginning of the pandemic. I know
Speaker 2: that Washington State was head first, but then very quickly
Speaker 2: COVID was spreading like wildfire through New York City, Detroit,
Speaker 2: New Orleans, and Chicago. We were all desperately trying to
Speaker 2: just get masks. Our hospitals were filled with COVID patients.
Speaker 2: We had doctors and nurses wearing masks for the same
Speaker 2: mask for weeks on end. And we were just desperately
Speaker 2: trying to get masks and all the ppe that we needed.
Speaker 2: And we were asking the federal government for help. And
Speaker 2: you know, the president at the time, former President Trump,
Speaker 2: had been saying, you know, we're not the nation's supply
Speaker 2: or you need to go find these things.
Speaker 1: And so we were if that's not the federal government's
Speaker 1: role to at least help coordinate, I don't know what
Speaker 1: is right in a national crisis.
Speaker 2: Exactly when Americans are dying, when our hospitals are filled,
Speaker 2: we had makeshift morgues with refrigerated trucks outside of hospitals.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I living in New York City,
Speaker 1: I live across from Lenox Hill Hospital, and I witnessed
Speaker 1: the same thing.
Speaker 2: It was chilling and devastating, and people were scared, and
Speaker 2: I was scared. It wasn't so much that I was
Speaker 2: mad that that we were being kind of left to
Speaker 2: our own devices, but I was fearful for the people
Speaker 2: that I I serve, And so we set up a
Speaker 2: quickly set up like a global procurement office, trying to
Speaker 2: get masks, and when we would get an order confirmed,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we'd be informed that no, the
Speaker 2: federal government actually was going to commandeer that. And so
Speaker 2: it was like we were told to go out and
Speaker 2: find these and then when we did, we were undermined.
Speaker 2: And so it was a really scary time and.
Speaker 1: Fear was and you spoke, and you spoke out about
Speaker 1: how scary it was and the lack of federal strategy.
Speaker 1: As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: zeroed in on you, famously calling you that woman from Michigan.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm a member of that club I've
Speaker 1: been tweeted about by Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: He called me.
Speaker 1: It has been a number of years ago, and I'm
Speaker 1: still here, so that's good. But you know you, I
Speaker 1: thought it was really funny and great how you turned
Speaker 1: that Michigan woman into an asset instead of a liability.
Speaker 1: Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I've learned over the year, so
Speaker 2: you know how to deal with bullies, right.
Speaker 1: It's oh, in fact, you were bullied, remember, I mean remember,
Speaker 1: of course you remember, but you wrote about it in
Speaker 1: your book that you had your share of bullies growing up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize, listen, take
Speaker 2: their weapon and make it your shield. When he called
Speaker 2: me that woman from Michigan, you know, was I hurt, No,
Speaker 2: not at all, But was I worried about what he
Speaker 2: would exact retribution and not work with us on you know,
Speaker 2: all the things we needed during the pandemic. But I
Speaker 2: decided to wear a T shirt that someone from the
Speaker 2: great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me
Speaker 2: that said that woman from Michigan. I wore it on
Speaker 2: Trevor Noah's show.
Speaker 3: And a lot of people started wearing it, right.
Speaker 2: They did, and everywhere I went, I mean, it became
Speaker 2: this thing, that woman from Michigan. I write about it
Speaker 2: in the book. But I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and
Speaker 2: a woman came up to me and she had framed
Speaker 2: a picture she drew of me, and it said that
Speaker 2: woman from Michigan. And I was said, Oh, that's so nice,
Speaker 2: and then she showed me she'd also had a tattooed
Speaker 2: on the back of her leg. I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, that's called that's called serious support.
Speaker 3: Right, that's so funny.
Speaker 2: But you know, I do think that when when a
Speaker 2: bully it comes for you, you need to flip their
Speaker 2: their insult and make it your your cause for action.
Speaker 1: And that's what was the reaction, by the way, from him.
Speaker 1: Did you hear did he tweet about you again?
Speaker 2: Oh? Anytime he tweeted, Just like I'm sure anyone who's
Speaker 2: been tweeted about by the former president, you know, we
Speaker 2: saw more anger coming my way. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: I was a frequent target of.
Speaker 1: His, And how did you handle that? Because you know
Speaker 1: it hurts on some level. Listen, no matter what when
Speaker 1: people are saying nasty, mean things about you, you can
Speaker 1: pretend it doesn't it's not wounding. But you know, I
Speaker 1: can have some name, this faceless anonymous person on Twitter
Speaker 1: saying something mean about me, and actually it's like it's
Speaker 1: like stabbing me in the heart a little bit. I
Speaker 1: get used to it and I get over it, but
Speaker 1: it still kind of hurts.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean we're we are human. I you know,
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about kind of the Whitmers, and
Speaker 2: I think being a Whitmer and being gen X, there
Speaker 2: maybe are a couple of similarities there right that have
Speaker 2: been very pronounced. But Whitmers have short memories and fixed skin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you, because God knows you need so
Speaker 1: you need those in politics, and you need more than that,
Speaker 1: because you need security.
Speaker 3: Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 1: I mean, in twenty twenty, a plot to kidnap and
Speaker 1: kill you by a right wing militia group was discovered.
Speaker 1: Take us back to that moment. I mean, that's not
Speaker 1: a mean tweet. That's a really scary situation. How did
Speaker 1: you even begin to process something like that? And you know,
Speaker 1: just take us back to what that was like.
Speaker 2: You know, it was really startling, to be honest, that
Speaker 2: for one of my briefings. You know, governors were doing
Speaker 2: regular briefings around COVID, what the numbers were, what, you know,
Speaker 2: what was happening in our states. And I went down
Speaker 2: to do one and they'd had a protest at the
Speaker 2: capitol and people didn't know I was in my office.
Speaker 2: My office actually the working office is across the street from.
Speaker 1: The Capitol and tell us again what the protest was about,
Speaker 1: because I think people don't remember maybe what was going on.
Speaker 2: We had I issued a stay at home order. It
Speaker 2: was for like three weeks, and everything was going. You know,
Speaker 2: people were pretty compliant until the former president singled me
Speaker 2: out and then we started seeing protests and then my
Speaker 2: legislature turned against and started suing me and trying to
Speaker 2: take away my powers, et cetera. And I remember going
Speaker 2: down for one of my briefings and looking out at
Speaker 2: this protest that they'd organized. It was called Operation Gridlock,
Speaker 2: and they brought all their cars downtown and parked in
Speaker 2: the street and were making noise. And I knew that
Speaker 2: they were going to protest, and I thought, Okay, it's fine.
Speaker 2: But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate
Speaker 2: flags and Nazi symbolism. And there's a picture in the
Speaker 2: book that I took with my phone that had someone
Speaker 2: had on the back of their pickup. This halfway is
Speaker 2: why we have the Second Amendment, you know, gun threats
Speaker 2: and a barbie and a noose that looked like me.
Speaker 2: And this was I think the moment where I realized, Wow,
Speaker 2: I mean, this has taken a whole new level of danger.
Speaker 1: And sounds like some foreshadowings of January sixth.
Speaker 2: Well exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people
Speaker 2: in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the
Speaker 2: gallery with their automatic rifles. It was absolutely when January
Speaker 2: sixth happened, I maybe was one of the few people.
Speaker 1: That felt like I've seen that movie before.
Speaker 2: Wasn't a surprise? Yeah, and then when it culminated into
Speaker 2: this plot, you know, I think that was one of
Speaker 2: those mon.
Speaker 1: How did you learn about the plot?
Speaker 2: The head of my detail so in the Michigan State
Speaker 2: Police said, you know, I'd like to sit down with you,
Speaker 2: and we chatted and we're both masked up, you know,
Speaker 2: we were still in the thick of everything. He said,
Speaker 2: I just want you to know you and your family
Speaker 2: are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police
Speaker 2: are working with some informants who have been a part
Speaker 2: of a plot of ten to fourteen people who have
Speaker 2: been are planning to putting together a plan to kidnap
Speaker 2: and kill you.
Speaker 1: And lord, I mean even hear you, hearing you say that,
Speaker 1: it's like, holy shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was scary, and you know, I wasn't leaving
Speaker 2: the house much with the state Police do a wonderful
Speaker 2: job keeping my family and me safe.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, how did it change life
Speaker 1: for you and your family? I'm sure. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can't kind of live normally after something like that happens, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I always tell people I love people.
Speaker 2: That's why I do. Yeah work, I do. I love
Speaker 2: going into especially going into unexpected places and having conversations
Speaker 2: with people.
Speaker 3: That must be fun.
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, I mean, it really is. That's I
Speaker 2: got into all eighty three counties in my first election,
Speaker 2: and you know, I'd love to ask people what can
Speaker 2: I do for you? What's going on in your life?
Speaker 2: And now, you know, going into a crowded room and
Speaker 2: you know, certain parts of the state, I feel much
Speaker 2: more aware. I'm much more concerned about where the exits
Speaker 2: are and who's there. And it's it's really sad that
Speaker 2: anyone in public life has to think that way, but
Speaker 2: we do know.
Speaker 1: You know, I thought it was interesting that you would
Speaker 1: like to meet with some of the people who are
Speaker 1: planning to kidnap and kill you. That's really admirable, but
Speaker 1: also in some ways hard to fathom.
Speaker 2: I was because you think I'm not so well.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've done so many stories about
Speaker 1: children who have been brutally murdered, and this extraordinary act
Speaker 1: of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to
Speaker 1: meet someone who killed her own child. I mean, I can't.
Speaker 1: I've done many stories about that. So in some ways
Speaker 1: I understand your impulse. But what would you like to
Speaker 1: learn from them? I imagine it's like you want to
Speaker 1: understand what is motivating these extreme right wing individuals.
Speaker 2: I do. I would love to talk, especially with one
Speaker 2: of the ones that worked with the government and testified
Speaker 2: and has shown a little bit of remorse. So I'd
Speaker 2: like to just understand how did this come to be
Speaker 2: and what was fueling and what was really going on
Speaker 2: with people. Because taking up arms and planning to assassinate
Speaker 2: a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep
Speaker 2: people alive, it's not a rational reaction. So what else
Speaker 2: was happening there? What can I learn from this? I
Speaker 2: feel like every situation there's got to be a lesson
Speaker 2: or I've got to at least try.
Speaker 1: Not only what you can learn, but how you can
Speaker 1: begin to bridge that divide. I imagine eight.
Speaker 2: Absolutely that's what it's all about. And maybe there's nothing
Speaker 2: to learn, but maybe there is, and that's why I'd
Speaker 2: like to take the opportunity to have that conversation.
Speaker 1: It is interesting for me to hear you say at
Speaker 1: the beginning that you appreciate some of the women who
Speaker 1: came before you, who had to deal with just endless bullshit.
Speaker 1: I might be included in that category in some ways,
Speaker 1: in other ways not so much. But I'm curious about
Speaker 1: being a female politician today. I'd like to read this
Speaker 1: passage from an article about you in The Washington Post
Speaker 1: that came out in July of twenty twenty two. Whitmer
Speaker 1: is a woman, but she is also an attractive woman,
Speaker 1: and her use of executive power, when wielded broadly, seems
Speaker 1: to deeply trigger her male antagonists. The Republican leader of
Speaker 1: the state Senate, Mike Shirkey, bragged on a hot mic
Speaker 1: that he had quote spanked her heart on budget, spanked
Speaker 1: her herd on appointments, and also so contemplated inviting her
Speaker 1: to a fistfight on the Capitol lawn. Another Republican lawmaker,
Speaker 1: Senator Ed mcbroome, complained that Whitmer had been quote neutering
Speaker 1: him and his colleagues the cause of the legislature's emasculation.
Speaker 1: I mean, this was twenty twenty two, Gretchen Wimmer, This wasn't.
Speaker 3: Like eighteen thirty nine.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, sexism is so pervasive and deeply rooted,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious how it's manifested itself in your tenure
Speaker 1: as governor.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean frequently. And one of the great things
Speaker 2: is right now in Michigan, we've got all the statewide electeds,
Speaker 2: excluding my Lieutenant governor, are all women. And it's been
Speaker 2: great to be, i think, surrounded by people who are
Speaker 2: ready to step into their and to own the power
Speaker 2: of the office that they have been elected to and
Speaker 2: to use that power to do the things that they
Speaker 2: ran on. It's we feed off one another that gives
Speaker 2: you great encouragement to one another. But there's no question
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, I remember getting man explained by my
Speaker 2: two Republican leaders. They were both in the majority, the
Speaker 2: Speaker of the House and that guy Shirky who you
Speaker 2: just mentioned, and they were telling me about what the
Speaker 2: law was and why I was out of bounce. I'm
Speaker 2: the only lawyer in the conversation, Katie, but they're telling
Speaker 2: me what the law is, and I thought, I don't
Speaker 2: believe any of my meal predecessors would have ever gotten
Speaker 2: this kind of a man spleening lecture. And in fact,
Speaker 2: after I won the lawsuit, I didn't have to go
Speaker 2: out of my way to point it out that I
Speaker 2: was actually right on the law. But it is. It's
Speaker 2: one of those things that women have to waste energy
Speaker 2: on thinking about how do we react to every one
Speaker 2: of these all the incoming. Do we make an opportunity
Speaker 2: to educate the person about why what they just did
Speaker 2: was out of bounds? Do we laugh it off, like
Speaker 2: you're silly and I'm not going to give you the
Speaker 2: time of day. Do we go dafund for tiding to
Speaker 2: hear it?
Speaker 1: Do we take stifle ourselves side it like when someone says,
Speaker 1: what is it called? When you suggest something and nobody responds,
Speaker 1: then their man suggests it.
Speaker 3: A butterfly effect, Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, what a great idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the woman put it on the table and
Speaker 2: then the man let it give it the way to fly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's challenging, without question, but you know,
Speaker 2: as the mom of two daughters, I'm always mindful of that.
Speaker 2: I've got to show up and be tough and think
Speaker 2: about how I model what is doable, but also how
Speaker 2: we hold people accountable and how when women lead we
Speaker 2: get shited done.
Speaker 1: And also I think isn't the best revenge doing the
Speaker 1: job well right and being right about the law when
Speaker 1: you're being explained by two non lawyers what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of that is, I think one
Speaker 1: of the best ways, like being successful at what you do.
Speaker 1: But I think female power is still very threatening to men,
Speaker 1: and I think in a way it's not their fault
Speaker 1: because they've been culturally conditioned to I think, especially older
Speaker 1: men honestly and some younger men, to see gender roles
Speaker 1: as so specific and it's so reinforced in so many
Speaker 1: ways in our society, whether it's billboards or images. And
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to interesting education professor at Harvard
Speaker 1: because I had done an hour on gender inequality in
Speaker 1: Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: our brains are wired to make these connections, and when
Speaker 1: you're surrounded by certain things like your mom is always
Speaker 1: doing the laundry or washing the dishes or cooking, you know,
Speaker 1: you do make this connection, wiring gets kind of built
Speaker 1: into your brain that there are certain roles for women
Speaker 1: in certain roles for men. And that's why it's so
Speaker 1: important that we have to break these roles, because that
Speaker 1: will result in breaking these stereotypes right.
Speaker 2: Right, and we have to be intentional about it, and
Speaker 2: we're always have to do that. Math is this, the moment?
Speaker 2: Is this? How do I respond to this? And how
Speaker 2: do we break those molds?
Speaker 1: I have to ask you, as the mother of two daughters,
Speaker 1: I also am the mom of two daughters. You have
Speaker 1: Sharry twenty two in Sydney twenty how concerned are you?
Speaker 1: I mean, I am deeply concerned about what is happening
Speaker 1: to reproductive rights in this country. I don't have to
Speaker 1: necessarily read the statistics, but maybe it would be helpful
Speaker 1: to our listeners. Fourteen states have abortion bands and almost
Speaker 1: all circumstances fourteen states. Three states have enacted bans or restrictions,
Speaker 1: but abortion remains legal for now as courts determine whether
Speaker 1: these laws can take effect. That's Montana, Wyoming, and Iowa.
Speaker 1: Seven states have gestational limits raging from six to twenty
Speaker 1: two weeks, and twenty five states and DC still have
Speaker 1: legal abortion. You know, people used to kind of make
Speaker 1: jokes about the Handmaid's Tale, but it does seem eerily
Speaker 1: prescient now in terms of what has happened as Roe
Speaker 1: was overturned and it was handed back to the States.
Speaker 1: So what do you, I mean, honestly, how do you
Speaker 1: process all this?
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, it's shocking to be in a situation
Speaker 2: where a right that I've had my whole life's not
Speaker 2: very much in jeopardy for my daughters. To think what
Speaker 2: the ability to have reproductive freedom and access to complete
Speaker 2: healthcare has meant for generations of women in America, what
Speaker 2: it's meant for our economy, what it's meant for our
Speaker 2: ability to raise a family and do the things that
Speaker 2: we need to do to take care of ourselves and
Speaker 2: our families. And to think that our girls may not
Speaker 2: always be able to say that they've had these rights.
Speaker 2: You know, in Michigan, we would have reverted back to
Speaker 2: a nineteen thirty one law with the Dobbs decision, But
Speaker 2: I filed a lawsuit because I was getting ready when
Speaker 2: Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. I said, we had to scour
Speaker 2: everything and see what we can do here, and so
Speaker 2: we had an injunction from the day that the Dobbs
Speaker 2: decision came down. I took a lot of crap for
Speaker 2: filing that lawsuit because people said, oh, it's an overreaction,
Speaker 2: they're not going to do that, or you know, you
Speaker 2: don't have standing, it's not ripe all the stuff.
Speaker 1: Don't worry so much, don't be such an alarmist.
Speaker 2: They'll never do that. But we ignored that. We went
Speaker 2: ahead and did it, and so we never lost the
Speaker 2: right in Michigan for a minute. It gave the activists
Speaker 2: and advocates that opportunity to collect signatures. We had it
Speaker 2: on the ballot, and we want overwhelmingly in Michigan. Just
Speaker 2: like other states where the people have been given an
Speaker 2: opportun way in they say, hell, yes, we expect to
Speaker 2: have these rights, whether it's in Ohio or Kentucky, I
Speaker 2: mean red states. But it's still very precarious. If you
Speaker 2: look at the language in the Supreme Court opinions, whether
Speaker 2: it was the Miffey opinion or this new Idaho opinion
Speaker 2: where they can give emergency medical care, which was a
Speaker 2: positive right that just came out. But if they say, well,
Speaker 2: we're not going to do anything more on this. It's
Speaker 2: a punt, which means it's still very much in play.
Speaker 2: And even in a state like Michigan or New York
Speaker 2: or California, where we think that this is settled, it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not.
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court doesn't really change in terms of
Speaker 1: who's on it anytime soon. Right? Can there be a
Speaker 1: federal law? And how likely would a federal law legalizing
Speaker 1: abortion nationwide happen?
Speaker 2: Well, we have to have a democratic majority of both
Speaker 2: the House and the US Senate and president who would
Speaker 2: sign the bill, which the only one running for president
Speaker 2: right now is President Biden, who would actually sign a
Speaker 2: bill that restores our reproductive freedom across this country?
Speaker 1: But how likely would it be that that would pass
Speaker 1: given the complement of the House and Senate, even on
Speaker 1: a good day, even if the Democrats control both houses? Right? Is,
Speaker 1: don't you need two thirds and you need a supermajority?
Speaker 2: And that's not in the foreseeable future, sadly, But I
Speaker 2: would say that what is in the foreseeable future is
Speaker 2: this next presidential election and the opportunity to appoint more
Speaker 2: justices and as these cases come back, whether it's someone
Speaker 2: who now does have standing or it's one of the
Speaker 2: other procedural reasons that they didn't actually decide the merits
Speaker 2: of reproductive rights. Who's on that court really matters more
Speaker 2: than ever, and the next president the next four years
Speaker 2: may have a couple of appointments.
Speaker 3: After this break.
Speaker 1: Rereteus thoughts on recent ethical breaches at the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: In a word, she says, it's scary. She'll tell us
Speaker 1: why right after this. You know, I'm curious as a lawyer, Gretchen,
Speaker 1: how you feel about the Supreme Court these days. You know,
Speaker 1: they've gone down in terms of the level of respect
Speaker 1: people feel or the trust they have in the High Court.
Speaker 1: Really weird stuff going on with Clarence Thomas ethically and
Speaker 1: Samuel Alito flying the upside down flag that was really
Speaker 1: the symbol for insurrectionists, even though his wife flew it.
Speaker 1: It was their mutual domicile after all, I mean, what
Speaker 1: the hell is going on with them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Can we just talk about like Bob Menendez and
Speaker 2: Justice a little boy, I mean their wives for yeah. Anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I have I feel really really you know,
Speaker 2: unsettled by everything that's happening with the Supreme Court, because
Speaker 2: as a as a public servant, as someone who's taken
Speaker 2: oaths to the Michigan Constitution, the US Constitution, as a
Speaker 2: lawyer who as an officer of the Court, I take
Speaker 2: all of these ethics and responsibilities very seriously. I know
Speaker 2: that confidence in our democratic institutions is plummeting, and now
Speaker 2: that it applies to the Court as well, and it's
Speaker 2: scary because those are the underpinnings of this democracy. And
Speaker 2: if I'm not confident in the Court that I've been
Speaker 2: raised and educated to revere, I don't know how how
Speaker 2: anyone can be. And I think that's very worrisome. I'd
Speaker 2: love to see the Court actually have some ethics laws
Speaker 2: that they have to follow and they get held accountable
Speaker 2: to because I think this is just really corrosive for
Speaker 2: our democracy.
Speaker 1: And I guess they made an attempt to, but they
Speaker 1: really didn't have any teeth. Jodi Kanter did a lot
Speaker 1: of reporting on this for The New York Times, and
Speaker 1: I interviewed her and she said that these ethics laws
Speaker 1: basically didn't have any meat to them. And it seems
Speaker 1: to me like it's high time for these justices to
Speaker 1: be held to account for some of their behavior. And
Speaker 1: I mean, they're so biased obviously, And I don't know,
Speaker 1: how do you find a Supreme Court justice in this
Speaker 1: day and age that isn't biased one way or another, right?
Speaker 2: Well, And I think you know the fact that they
Speaker 2: went into Congress and said that Roe was the settled
Speaker 2: law of the land. They flat out wide to Congress.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really stunning when you step back and
Speaker 2: think about all the different ways that the standards and
Speaker 2: the ethics and confidence in these institutions has been eroded.
Speaker 2: When you've got three appointees who say one thing and
Speaker 2: do the other and betrayed the people, it's really destructive.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime
Speaker 1: soon because how old is the oldest justice? I have
Speaker 1: to look this up, But doesn't seem like anyone or
Speaker 1: any of them are particularly near retirement, does it?
Speaker 2: Well? In Washington, do you see the average age of
Speaker 2: services quite old? So?
Speaker 1: Right, So, I don't maybe the legislative thing, which seems
Speaker 1: unlikely too. So we're kind of in a bit of
Speaker 1: a bind when it comes to abortion rights.
Speaker 2: Right and yet where we are isn't locked, and it
Speaker 2: could definitely slide backwards. And I think that's the big
Speaker 2: concern that I have talking to Michigan Anders who work
Speaker 2: so hard to get us on the right side of
Speaker 2: this issue now to know it could all be for
Speaker 2: naught with you know, a future Supreme Court ruling.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know that you are part of President by
Speaker 1: Re election campaign, but I wanted to ask you about
Speaker 1: something he said during the twenty twenty election. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden appeared at a campaign stop and he was
Speaker 1: with you, Kamala Harris, and Corey Booker, and he said
Speaker 1: he viewed himself as a bridge, not as anything else.
Speaker 1: I interviewed Vice President Harris not too long ago, and
Speaker 1: I said, Hey, did you think that bridge was going
Speaker 1: to take four years to build or eight years to build?
Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of people really did think
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden, given his age, was going to be
Speaker 1: a one term president.
Speaker 3: WTF.
Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer, you know, I remember we were on that stage.
Speaker 2: It was actually the last rally of the whole campaign
Speaker 2: because COVID, the first two cases in COVID came the
Speaker 2: night of the election in Michigan, and that's why he
Speaker 2: was there. We were having our primary and I remember
Speaker 2: it vividly because we were all, you know, hugging one
Speaker 2: another but not shaking hands. And it just like makes
Speaker 2: me cringe thinking about it because we didn't know its
Speaker 2: respiratorially spread to talking to one another but shaking hands.
Speaker 3: But anyway, I'm glad you didn't get him sick.
Speaker 2: Oh God, But you know, I do think that that
Speaker 2: was that was what he communicated. He has gotten so
Speaker 2: much done in four years. He's got he wants to
Speaker 2: continue the work for the next four The field is set.
Speaker 2: I know people keep saying, well what about this one?
Speaker 2: About that? The field is set, and we've got a
Speaker 2: very stark choice in front of us in this country.
Speaker 2: And the good news is future in future elections. There's
Speaker 2: a very deep bench of incredibly talented democratic leaders in
Speaker 2: this country right now. I think about all of my colleagues,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone from from Joshapiro to Wesmore to Michelle
Speaker 2: Leuhan Grisham to you know, Gavin Newsome, JB. Pritzker.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's Mitch Landrew kind of seemed Mitch Landry
Speaker 1: semi interested when I asked it the other day. Gina,
Speaker 1: I hear her name often.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it really is a deep bench of
Speaker 2: incredibly talented people, deeper than we've had in a long time.
Speaker 2: So I think it's exciting to think about what does
Speaker 2: the next the next one look like. But right now
Speaker 2: we got a stark choice. So that's WTF, Katie.
Speaker 1: One person you left out of that list was Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm honored to be included with that group.
Speaker 1: I do think that whenever I think of future leaders,
Speaker 1: inevitably your name comes up, which is a really nice compliment,
Speaker 1: and you know, an incredible show of support. And you know,
Speaker 1: obviously you're not gonna tell me, yes, Katie, I'm running
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight and i'd like to announce it
Speaker 1: on your podcast, But you know, does it appeal to
Speaker 1: you this idea of potentially one day running for president?
Speaker 1: And I mean, that's a huge, huge thing, And you know,
Speaker 1: given some of the threats on your life already and
Speaker 1: your family and just the grueling nature of running for
Speaker 1: president for any person, man or woman, how do you
Speaker 1: think about it right now? I know it's in the future,
Speaker 1: and I'm not this is not a gotcha question. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to pin you down, but I'm just curious,
Speaker 1: as as a person who believes deeply in public service.
Speaker 1: How you think about it, Well.
Speaker 2: The truth is I'm not thinking about it right now.
Speaker 2: I'm really not, and i don't know what happens. I've
Speaker 2: got two and a half more years of being governor.
Speaker 2: We've got to get through this crucial election. Got a
Speaker 2: lot of work that I want to get done. You know,
Speaker 2: the possibility of that is something that is an overwhelming
Speaker 2: thought that would have to be, you know, given the
Speaker 2: proper attention and consideration. And I'm not in any position
Speaker 2: to do that right now. So when people say what
Speaker 2: are you going to do after yours on being governor?
Speaker 2: I like to say, I'm want to walk the earth
Speaker 2: for a year and figure out what it is I
Speaker 2: want to do next. I say that kind of joking,
Speaker 2: but I do care about where we are. I do
Speaker 2: want to be a part of a solution making room,
Speaker 2: at the table for voices that haven't always been there.
Speaker 2: And if I've got something to contribute, whether it's you know,
Speaker 2: as a candidate or as a supporter of a great candidate,
Speaker 2: I'm going to stay engaged one way or another.
Speaker 1: I also think, like, if your head's not in the
Speaker 1: game for what you're doing right now, You've got a
Speaker 1: huge role, a lot of responsibility. If you're thinking too
Speaker 1: much about the future, you're going to screw up the present, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you can't take your eye off the ball.
Speaker 2: I mean, these are heavy duty jobs and people are
Speaker 2: relying on us. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one thing people are relying on you, Governor, is
Speaker 1: to help Joe Biden win the state of Michigan. And
Speaker 1: right now President Biden and former President Trump are running
Speaker 1: neck and neck there. How are you going to do that?
Speaker 2: Well, I've told everyone, don't clutch your pearls when we're
Speaker 2: down two points, don't celebrate when we're up due points.
Speaker 2: Just make peace with the fact that this is going
Speaker 2: to be close all the way through the election. I
Speaker 2: always remind people months out before my reelect, everyone was
Speaker 2: right in my political obituary, Katie, and they said they
Speaker 2: don't no way was that woman from Michigan who locked
Speaker 2: people down and Democrat in the White House. No way,
Speaker 2: because you get re elected in a state like Michigan,
Speaker 2: and I ended up winning by almost eleven points because
Speaker 2: we showed up and we got into every community. And
Speaker 2: that's the kind of work that we're continuing to do
Speaker 2: and on behalf of President Biden. You know people are
Speaker 2: They're good, hard working people. They're busy, They're not consuming
Speaker 2: information the way that you and I are. They've got
Speaker 2: to get the kids off to school, get to the job,
Speaker 2: get the bills paid. I mean, people are trying to
Speaker 2: get by. It's a hard time for a lot of.
Speaker 1: Folks in the cost of living. Do you think President
Speaker 1: Biden is really focused in off on the price of
Speaker 1: groceries and gas, because that seems to be to me
Speaker 1: an animating factor in how people are feeling right now
Speaker 1: about these two candidates.
Speaker 2: I think you can't tell someone how to feel. You
Speaker 2: can't change the stress that someone's feeling in their household
Speaker 2: budget by saying, well, look at we've got historically low
Speaker 2: unemployment and take home wages and our economies better than
Speaker 2: other countries. That doesn't make them feel better. We've got
Speaker 2: to ask what is it that you need? What can
Speaker 2: we do? And did you know that the president has
Speaker 2: helped you keep more money in your pocket because of
Speaker 2: all these investments that he's making, whether it's in infrastructure,
Speaker 2: or it's in clean energy, or it's in debt relief.
Speaker 2: And so I think drawing those connections are going to
Speaker 2: be really crucial for us as we're going into the
Speaker 2: next few months. But it's going to be tense and
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1: Michigan has the largest population of air of American and
Speaker 1: Muslim voters, many of them strongly opposed President Biden's handling
Speaker 1: of Israel Hamas war. I know you've been talking, and
Speaker 1: I know you've made great efforts to reach out to
Speaker 1: the Arab American community in your state, But how concerned
Speaker 1: are you not only Gretchen about how they'll be voting
Speaker 1: in Michigan, but also about young people. You know, it's
Speaker 1: interesting a lot of polls show the economy is still
Speaker 1: top of mind for young people. But you know, if
Speaker 1: you look at the protests on college campuses and this
Speaker 1: wedge that this war has put into place, not only
Speaker 1: within the Democratic Party but almost generationally, how worried are
Speaker 1: you about all those things coming together and hurting the president.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm concerned. I definitely see the path through Michigan,
Speaker 2: and we're working hard to ensure that we earn the
Speaker 2: support of all of these communities. I know that a
Speaker 2: Trump Part two would make things measurably worse, and I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people know that, whether it was
Speaker 2: around the Muslim ban or how he talks about, you know,
Speaker 2: the war that's playing out in Gaza with Israel, that
Speaker 2: we know that he represents something that would make actually
Speaker 2: the situation worse. All that being said, we've got to
Speaker 2: recognize that there are a lot of people that are
Speaker 2: hurt in right now. In Michigan. We've got a huge
Speaker 2: contention of Arab American voters, many of whom are also
Speaker 2: Muslim voters, some of whom are also Palestinians. They're not
Speaker 2: all one monolithic group, but most are one or two
Speaker 2: degrees of separation from someone who's died in the fighting,
Speaker 2: someone who's trying to feed their family still over in Gaza.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of guilt being here and sadness that
Speaker 2: American dollars are going into, you know, the pain that
Speaker 2: their loved ones are feeling over there. Also say, we've
Speaker 2: got a robust Jewish community her gosh.
Speaker 1: While straddling those two groups and thinking dialectically, which is
Speaker 1: increasingly hard to find, yes and thinking must be really difficult.
Speaker 2: It is. And these are communities that have lived in
Speaker 2: harmony for decades in Michigan, who've always been both have
Speaker 2: always been a part of the coalition that I've been
Speaker 2: fortunate to have the support of, and so I do
Speaker 2: think that there's more work to do with a lot
Speaker 2: of these voters. I think we will earn back the
Speaker 2: support of most of them, but I think that we're
Speaker 2: going to need to earn support of a lot of
Speaker 2: new voters too, And young people, like you said, are
Speaker 2: they see the humanitarian crisis playing out and they're very
Speaker 2: upset about it. My own kids, I've had conversations, you know,
Speaker 2: hard conversations with to know that they are feeling very
Speaker 2: empathetic and sad and demoralized and angry about, you know,
Speaker 2: the violence that they're seeing playing out every day. So
Speaker 2: I think that my job in Michigan is to make
Speaker 2: sure both these communities feel seen, heard and supported and
Speaker 2: safe here at home, but also to try to find
Speaker 2: to bridge that divide. And it takes a lot of work,
Speaker 2: but it starts with hard conversations and continues with.
Speaker 1: Them and a lot of listening. I imagine too, right.
Speaker 2: Listening as a superpower, Katie. I've learned so much from
Speaker 2: people if you ask them what they need, what they want,
Speaker 2: or what's going on in their lives. They will tell you,
Speaker 2: and politicians who make the mistake of not doing that,
Speaker 2: I think are missing, missing the plot, missing what's really
Speaker 2: happening with people and the ability to help them.
Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, The book is true, Gretch. What I've learned
Speaker 1: about life, leadership and everything in between has been such
Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
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Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx,
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Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
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