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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Joe Biden appeared on

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Speaker 1: a Michigan stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and my

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Speaker 1: guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

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Speaker 2: Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.

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Speaker 2: There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me.

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Speaker 1: They are the future of this country.

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Speaker 2: They're the people who are going to.

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Speaker 1: Many people took that to mean that he'd be one

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Speaker 1: term president. With his re election campaign and crisis. Coming

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Speaker 1: off a rough debate performance in June, some people are

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Speaker 1: scratching their heads, asking was the bridge going to take

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Speaker 1: this long to build? When I talked to just about

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Speaker 1: anyone about the future of politics, Gretchen Whitmer's name inevitably

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Speaker 1: comes up. Her leadership in Michigan has protected reproductive rights

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Speaker 1: and kept the state together through the darkest days of COVID,

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Speaker 1: during which she withstood some pretty nasty comments by then

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Speaker 1: President Trump. You'll hear more about that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: The Whitmer roots run deep in state politics. Her father

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Speaker 1: was a part of two Michigan governor's administrations. And her

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Speaker 1: grandfather was superintendent of schools when integration led to protests,

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Speaker 1: bus bombings, and kkk rallies. One of her family's mottos,

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Speaker 1: the Whitmers have quote, short memories and thick skins. Gretchen

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Speaker 1: also likes to say listening is a superpower. Those qualities

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Speaker 1: have helped her stay connected to her constituents and focus

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Speaker 1: on the big issues they care about. But in this

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Speaker 1: deeply divided country, she's face forces that don't want her

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Speaker 1: to succeed, and worse, she was the target of a

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Speaker 1: pretty harrowing kidnapping plot, which she also talks about in

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Speaker 1: our conversation. It's a bit of a cliche, I know,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's safe to say Gretchen Whitmer is

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Speaker 1: one to watch, part of the new generation of leaders

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Speaker 1: to whom the baton will be passed, and for those

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Speaker 1: who are angry about the so called garontocracy we have now,

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Speaker 1: she seems poised to take on an even bigger job

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Speaker 1: than the governor of Michigan. On a personal note, I

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed our time together. She is refreshingly candid and

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Speaker 1: easy to talk to, even when it comes to some

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Speaker 1: pretty embarrassing moments. Here's our conversation, recorded in Aspen, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: during the Ideas Festival. Gretchen Whitmer, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We're doing this from Aspen, Colorado, a beautiful place, although

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Speaker 1: sadly it's raining a little today, but you'll have to

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Speaker 1: come back to Aspen and spend some time here.

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Speaker 2: I would love to I'd love to ski, so I'd

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Speaker 2: like to come in the winter.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you should. You should is fabulous here,

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Speaker 1: and I'm a really terrible skier, so I can say

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Speaker 1: from my friends who know how to ski, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking. Governor whit Murphy, I call you Gretchen

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Speaker 1: because I kind of feel like Gretchen Katie is more comfortable.

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Speaker 1: You have written a book called True Gretch what I've

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Speaker 1: learned about life, leadership and everything in between. I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: why now, Why was this something you wanted to do

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Speaker 1: at this moment in time.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the questions that I get asked the most,

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Speaker 2: whether I'm traveling in Michigan or outside of the state,

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Speaker 2: is with all the heavy stuff, the threats and the

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Speaker 2: ugliness and pandemics and flooding and protests, how do I

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Speaker 2: say positive? Why do I want to keep doing this job,

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Speaker 2: and I think that this is a heavy year. People

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Speaker 2: are feeling lots of emotions, lots of strife and struggle,

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Speaker 2: and the political rhetoric is hot, and I thought, if

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Speaker 2: I can put something light out into the world, right now,

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Speaker 2: that's what it's all about. So these are ten things

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Speaker 2: I've learned over the course of my life. Different I

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Speaker 2: tell stories about when I learned them and how I

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Speaker 2: use these lessons to get through these last six years

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Speaker 2: as governor of Michigan. And if I give you a laugh,

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Speaker 2: or there's a little inspiration, or it's just some light

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Speaker 2: reading and the heavy time, that's what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me that it's designed in some ways

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Speaker 1: to introduce you to an audience and for people really

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Speaker 1: to get to know you, because you're very honest about

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Speaker 1: a lot of things.

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Speaker 3: Gretchen, Well, I guess.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a perfect person, and I've learned

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Speaker 2: things from my own mistakes or learned things from wiser

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Speaker 2: people than I am, and have really been able to,

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Speaker 2: I think, grow through some of those struggles. And if

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Speaker 2: there's a lesson that I've learned that might make someone's

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Speaker 2: day a little easier help them navigate something, then I've

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Speaker 2: accomplished what I set out to do.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being honest and vulnerable in this book.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wrote a memoir a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: and I was extremely transparent about, you know, my accomplishments,

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Speaker 1: things I was proud of, but also my flaw us

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Speaker 1: and things that I regretted or wish I had done better.

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Speaker 1: And I ended up getting mightily criticized for those things.

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Speaker 1: But why do you think it's important for leaders, and

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Speaker 1: maybe particularly women leaders, to be honest about their journey

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Speaker 1: and some of the mistakes they've made along the way.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm lucky that there were women who

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Speaker 2: came before me who made it easier for me to

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Speaker 2: show up as myself and to be that honest. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's a recent article that Rebecca Traster wrote, and she

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Speaker 2: wrote about how Jennifer Granholm, the first governor of Michigan,

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Speaker 2: who is now our energy secretary, how she'd cut her

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Speaker 2: hair short and tried to you know, not.

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Speaker 1: Kind of masculate, masculate herself, if that's a word.

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Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly. And I think that because she and

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Speaker 2: people like Hillary Clinton came before and took so much heat.

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Speaker 2: It's made it easier for people in my generation to

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Speaker 2: show up as we are. And I'm hoping that the

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Speaker 2: things that I've had to navigate, the generation comes after

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Speaker 2: me doesn't have to. And I think that's why talking

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Speaker 2: about it, really identifying it, and being authentic and showing

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Speaker 2: up that way is important, and showing people that you

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Speaker 2: are not a perfect person and that you're here better

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Speaker 2: than anyone else.

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Speaker 1: And in a way it gives other women permission to

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Speaker 1: not be perfect exactly, because that's a recipe for disaster.

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Speaker 1: Let's face it, because no one is.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your life. You were

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Speaker 1: born in Lansing in nineteen seventy one. Politics. I learned

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Speaker 1: so much about you by the way in this book,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I knew a fair amount about you.

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Speaker 1: But it was a family business. Your mom was a Democrat.

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Speaker 1: She was a lawyer and served as assistant Attorney general.

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Speaker 1: Your dad, meanwhile, was a Republican and served in Governor

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Speaker 1: Milliken's cabinet before becoming an insurance executive. Looking back, was

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Speaker 1: it a foregone conclusion growing up with these two figures

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Speaker 1: obviously in your life, that you'd go into politics.

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Speaker 2: God, No, no, no, I mean did their service turn

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Speaker 2: you often anyway? No public service that you know. Their

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Speaker 2: generations of my family have been in public service. And

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Speaker 2: at the end of the book, I talk about my

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Speaker 2: grandfather who was a superintendent during court ordered bussing and

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Speaker 2: had the ku Klux Klan target his house and bomb

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Speaker 2: buses in Pontiac, Michigan while he was superintendent. So I

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Speaker 2: always revered public service, but I thought I was going

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Speaker 2: to be a sports broadcaster, to be honest.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they were very funny man.

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Speaker 2: You know ESPN. When I was growing up. I love sports.

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Speaker 2: Went to Michigan State to do with that, and it

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Speaker 2: was my dad who said, you know, the capital is

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Speaker 2: right down the street. So few people understand how state

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Speaker 2: government works. Why don't you apply for an internship and

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Speaker 2: see if you can get one and just check it out.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you hate it, but you've had an opportunity. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you love it. And that was really great advice. I

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Speaker 2: got involved and passionate about public policy and really changed

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Speaker 2: the trajectory of my life.

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Speaker 1: I feel like every young person, honestly, and I regret

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Speaker 1: not doing that to be an intern in some form

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Speaker 1: of government, because I think part of the problem in

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Speaker 1: Gretchen is so many people really don't truly understand how

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Speaker 1: government works. Civics education has been kind of not necessarily prioritized.

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Speaker 1: Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, that was her big fight

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Speaker 1: in the later years of her life. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's nothing like seeing government at work with your very

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Speaker 1: own eyes.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I think that we need to

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Speaker 2: do better in terms of civic education, for sure. I

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Speaker 2: think that it's easy to undermine the institutions of our

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Speaker 2: democracy when people don't know, or don't trust, or don't

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Speaker 2: understand how it works. So giving people that exposure it

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Speaker 2: was a great suggestion of my father's. I've made the

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Speaker 2: same suggestion to both my girls because I want them

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Speaker 2: to also be, you know, consumers of information and active

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Speaker 2: in their in their government, whether it's they hold office

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Speaker 2: one day, which I doubt either one of them will do, yeah,

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Speaker 2: or it is just simply as a citizen or business

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Speaker 2: owner or whatever their path is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as safe works exactly. I think as a citizen

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Speaker 1: where we all have that responsibility. I wanted to ask

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Speaker 1: you about the fact that your parents had a mixed marriage,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. Right, your dad was a Republican. Your

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Speaker 1: mom was a Democrat. I know they ultimately divorced when

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Speaker 1: you were just six years old. But how do you

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Speaker 1: think being exposed to different political perspectives shaped you, Because

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Speaker 1: it's very unusual. Only twenty one percent of marriages today

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Speaker 1: are mixed party, according to the American Family Survey.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it tells you a lot about where

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Speaker 2: the parties have gone over the years. Right, my father,

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Speaker 2: It's really funny. He was a part of the Milligan

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Speaker 2: and Romney administrations in Michigan. Romney, of course, the name

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Speaker 2: everyone knows.

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Speaker 1: Yes, amidst dad, Right, it's dad, George Romney, Right, George

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Speaker 1: Romney exactly.

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Speaker 2: But it was a time when the Republican Party they

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Speaker 2: you know, there were a lot of pro choice people

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Speaker 2: in the Republican Party. They were Milliken was a great environmentalist.

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Speaker 2: Protecting the Great Lakes was something that he was very

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Speaker 2: passionate about equal housing. I mean, it was a different time,

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Speaker 2: But I do think that one of the lessons that

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Speaker 2: I've always taken with me and all offices I've held

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Speaker 2: is that no one person or one party has all

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Speaker 2: the answers that we've got to be able to talk

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Speaker 2: to one another and you're never going to find what

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Speaker 2: you can agree on if you're not even talking to

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Speaker 2: each other. And I think part of the discouragement that

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Speaker 2: people have, justifiably is they look at what's going on

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Speaker 2: in our politics and it's so personal, it's so ugly.

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Speaker 2: It's sometimes terrifying, you know. I talk about the all

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Speaker 2: the threats that have become normalized in today's politics in America.

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Speaker 1: So scary, right, And I'm going to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about that in a moment, and also about polarization. But

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Speaker 1: I do want to touch on a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your teenage years, because you describe yourself as a bit

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Speaker 1: of a hellien as a teenager, drinking and getting suspended

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Speaker 1: from school. You even tell Gretchen one pretty cringe story

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Speaker 1: of throwing up on your high school principle after he

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Speaker 1: discovered you you drunk in the parking lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, moment. And I would have killed

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Speaker 2: my daughter. So if they'd done anything that stupid. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I was.

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Speaker 3: I ran with a fast ground in high school.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun, Katie. It sounds like it,

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Speaker 2: but it also you know, I wasn't particularly challenged or

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Speaker 2: interested in what I was you know, learning in school.

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Speaker 2: And it was that moment. You know, I got in

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Speaker 2: a lot of trouble. I was suspended, my mother wanted

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Speaker 2: to kill me. And the worst thing is my dad

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Speaker 2: goes silent when he's angry. I'm a little more like

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Speaker 2: my dad. Yeah, and I'm like that too.

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Speaker 3: Not a good not a good treat.

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Speaker 2: By the way, a silent parent who's a.

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Speaker 1: Silent treatment is not a good way to go.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I really got my ag together after that.

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Speaker 2: I became the most improved student. I got an award

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Speaker 2: for that, and later in high school and went out

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Speaker 2: to Michigan State, which was a very much in doubt

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Speaker 2: if I could get in at one point in high school.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, But so academically you weren't particularly strong.

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Speaker 2: No, I was not disciplined. I had all the raw materials,

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Speaker 2: but it was not disciplined in the slightest. And I

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Speaker 2: started to get my stride in college. And then law

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Speaker 2: school is when it really clicked for me. I loved

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Speaker 2: law school. I graduated summa cum laude and was loved it.

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Speaker 2: Finally was challenged and focused and surrounded by people who

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Speaker 2: were similarly motivated.

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Speaker 1: This should give hope to anyone who's got a bit

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Speaker 1: of a Hellian as a teenager right now that he

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Speaker 1: or she is not necessarily lost cause, right, absolutely, But

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Speaker 1: it did create some tension with your mom. You write

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Speaker 1: about that, right.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to kill me, And like I said, if

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Speaker 2: either of my daughters had been that difficulty, I would

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Speaker 2: have felt the same exact way. But ultimately went to

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Speaker 2: college and she became one of my very best friends.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 2: time in my life that I think really forged who

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Speaker 2: I am today, and I became a Sandwich generation member

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Speaker 2: in my late twenties, my mom was dying of brain cancer.

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Speaker 2: I had just given birth to my first child and

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Speaker 2: was both of their primary caregiver, and it was that

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Speaker 2: experience I think that really made who I am today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I read about that, and I'm so sorry because

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Speaker 1: she was just fifty nine when she died, and you

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Speaker 1: were thirty one, as you said, with just one daughter

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Speaker 1: at the time.

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Speaker 2: Two month old.

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Speaker 1: Yet two month old when she passed away. So how

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Speaker 1: long was she sick, Gretchen?

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Speaker 2: You know, the prognosis was four to six months, and

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Speaker 2: she lived for about eighteen And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: having that child to look forward to was a motive

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Speaker 2: was helpful for her to keep her spirits up. But

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Speaker 2: we had good healthcare, she had a supportive family, and

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Speaker 2: she had a heck of a wonderful attay to like

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Speaker 2: she was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I read in your book she was kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, cracking jokes and being funny and sort of

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Speaker 1: I guess had a bit of a mischievous personality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we talked about Gallows humor. Like you know,

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Speaker 2: I talked to my mom's sister a few years ago

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and she's the closest thing I have

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Speaker 2: to my mom. And I just said, Aunt, Betsy, you know,

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Speaker 2: if my mom were here, what would she say to

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Speaker 2: me right now? And she said, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: she would say, Gretchen, but you're so much like her.

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Speaker 2: You can find something humorous even in the darkest, hardest moment,

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Speaker 2: and that is a huge superpower. And I thought that

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Speaker 2: was really the nicest thing that I could have heard

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Speaker 2: in that moment.

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Speaker 1: And it's nice that you got that from your mom. Right.

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Speaker 1: And another thing you got is that you often wear

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Speaker 1: bright pink. I guess you'd call it fusia, right, And

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Speaker 1: you're wearing fuscha pants today because that was your mom's

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Speaker 1: favorite color.

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Speaker 2: She loved it. She was, you know, at the Attorney

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Speaker 2: General's office and one of her colleagues she'd worn a pink,

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Speaker 2: bright pink blaze her to work and she was getting

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Speaker 2: ready to go to court and one of the colleagues said,

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Speaker 2: you can't wear pink to court, Sherry, And she said,

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Speaker 2: Fusta is my power color and went off. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I had a spectacular showing in court. And I always

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Speaker 2: love that story. But she loved pink. And when I

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Speaker 2: kicked off my campaign, the women's marches were happening. We

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Speaker 2: all were showing up with our pink hats on. So

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Speaker 2: pink'spen this kind of interesting theme. And as the mom

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Speaker 2: of two.

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Speaker 1: Daughters, one named Sherry, yeah, after your mom.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, it's kind of a color that makes me

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Speaker 2: happy and feel energized and strong.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, I like pink too. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about twenty thirteen. You were serving as Michigan's Senate minority leader,

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Speaker 1: and that year state Republicans tried to push through a

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Speaker 1: bill requiring women in Michigan to buy extra health insurance

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Speaker 1: for abortion coverage. It was rape insurance as you called it.

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Speaker 1: On the day the bill came up for a vote,

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Speaker 1: you tossed aside your prepared remarks.

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Speaker 2: Why, well, I had an internal strife going. I was

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Speaker 2: getting ready to speak. We had a situation where the

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Speaker 2: majority party, the Republicans, would not hold a single hearing,

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Speaker 2: let women testify, let doctors and nurses testify, like no conversation.

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Speaker 2: They just wanted to jam through this new policy. And

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Speaker 2: I thought, I have a MIC, I need to use it.

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Speaker 2: And I was trying to talk my colleague into telling

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Speaker 2: his and his wife story. I thought maybe that would

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Speaker 2: engender some sympathy or at least open up some minds.

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Speaker 2: They'd been desperately wanting a family. She'd gone through IVF.

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Speaker 2: It didn't you know, she had a miscarriage, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't complete, and so she had to go to the

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Speaker 2: hospital to have an abortion. Call it a DNC, but

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Speaker 2: it's an abortion. And had the law been what it

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Speaker 2: was that they were pushing through the thirty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: hospital bill would not have been covered by their insurance.

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Speaker 2: Was desperately wanted pregnancy. And I asked him if he

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Speaker 2: could tell the story, and he couldn't. It was just

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Speaker 2: too recent and too hard. Yeah. I remember walking back

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Speaker 2: to my desk thinking, God, how can I ask him

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Speaker 2: to bear himself to the world when I too have

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Speaker 2: a story that might resonate with people. And so I

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Speaker 2: decided to share the story for the first time publicly

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Speaker 2: that I was raped when I was in college as

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Speaker 2: a freshman. And I grabbed two of my staff people,

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Speaker 2: one woman, one man, and I said, I shared with

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Speaker 2: him what had happened. I said, I think thinking about

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Speaker 2: telling this on the floor and the woman I worked

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Speaker 2: with said, don't do it. You're not going to change

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Speaker 2: a single vote. She wanted to protect me because she

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Speaker 2: knew she was savvy, she knew what was going to happen.

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Speaker 2: And the man said, I have no advice. You got

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Speaker 2: to do what you think the right thing to do is.

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Speaker 2: You know. They're both shocked. And I told the story

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Speaker 2: and it didn't change a damn vote. Katie, and I

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Speaker 2: remember after the vote came, one of the guys on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the aisle came up to me

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Speaker 2: and said, you're so brave. My wife too was raped

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Speaker 2: when she was in college, and I wish I could

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Speaker 2: have voted with you. And I heard that from him,

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Speaker 2: and I just was like, you've just acknowledged that I

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Speaker 2: cast the right boat, and you wish you could have,

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Speaker 2: but you didn't. And it was gutting. But by the

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Speaker 2: next morning I got into the office and we'd had

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Speaker 2: hundreds of phone calls and emails and faxes. This was

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Speaker 2: ten years ago, so faxes were quite a thing. And

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Speaker 2: that's when I realized, Okay, I laid myself bare, but

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Speaker 2: I gave voice to something that needed to be given

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Speaker 2: and people felt seen and heard and represented, and that

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Speaker 2: was for me, the good part of doing it. And

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Speaker 2: ten years later, we kept the fight up, and as

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Speaker 2: governor of Michigan, I got to sign the repeal of

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Speaker 2: that long the ten year anniversary of.

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Speaker 1: It, which was so awesome as a woman who believes

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Speaker 1: deeply in reproductive rights. Thank you for that, well, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a good opportunity to show people

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Speaker 2: that these fights are heard. It can feel very demoralizing

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Speaker 2: and discouraging, but we're right on these issues and we

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Speaker 2: can win them. It might take longer than it should, though,

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Speaker 2: but we can win them.

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Speaker 1: When we come back. Gretchen's time and Trump's Twitter crosshairs,

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Speaker 1: I've been there too. Trump called me a has been,

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Speaker 1: but I'm still here. Donald Moore after the break. If

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Speaker 1: you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown

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Speaker 1: of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness

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Speaker 1: and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake

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Speaker 1: Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about the abortion landscape in a moment,

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Speaker 1: but first I want to talk to you about being

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Speaker 1: elected as governor of Michigan. That was in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Two years later, the pandemic started and your state was

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Speaker 1: one of the hardest hit. You write in a not

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Speaker 1: very flattering way about what President Trump did during that time,

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Speaker 1: which is really frustrating even reading it in retrospect. Of

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Speaker 1: course we heard about this at the time, But can

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Speaker 1: you describe sort of the kind of hunger Games environment.

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Speaker 1: I think actually you described it in a cruel hunger

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Speaker 1: Game style scramble for equipment, So tell us what that

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Speaker 1: was like and what was going on at that moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to remember, right, COVID has really I think.

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Speaker 1: It feels like yesterday, and it feels like, you know,

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we at the beginning of the pandemic. I know

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Speaker 2: that Washington State was head first, but then very quickly

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Speaker 2: COVID was spreading like wildfire through New York City, Detroit,

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Speaker 2: New Orleans, and Chicago. We were all desperately trying to

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Speaker 2: just get masks. Our hospitals were filled with COVID patients.

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Speaker 2: We had doctors and nurses wearing masks for the same

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Speaker 2: mask for weeks on end. And we were just desperately

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Speaker 2: trying to get masks and all the ppe that we needed.

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Speaker 2: And we were asking the federal government for help. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the president at the time, former President Trump,

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Speaker 2: had been saying, you know, we're not the nation's supply

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Speaker 2: or you need to go find these things.

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Speaker 1: And so we were if that's not the federal government's

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Speaker 1: role to at least help coordinate, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: is right in a national crisis.

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Speaker 2: Exactly when Americans are dying, when our hospitals are filled,

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Speaker 2: we had makeshift morgues with refrigerated trucks outside of hospitals.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I living in New York City,

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Speaker 1: I live across from Lenox Hill Hospital, and I witnessed

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Speaker 1: the same thing.

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Speaker 2: It was chilling and devastating, and people were scared, and

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Speaker 2: I was scared. It wasn't so much that I was

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Speaker 2: mad that that we were being kind of left to

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Speaker 2: our own devices, but I was fearful for the people

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Speaker 2: that I I serve, And so we set up a

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Speaker 2: quickly set up like a global procurement office, trying to

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Speaker 2: get masks, and when we would get an order confirmed,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we'd be informed that no, the

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Speaker 2: federal government actually was going to commandeer that. And so

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Speaker 2: it was like we were told to go out and

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Speaker 2: find these and then when we did, we were undermined.

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Speaker 2: And so it was a really scary time and.

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Speaker 1: Fear was and you spoke, and you spoke out about

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Speaker 1: how scary it was and the lack of federal strategy.

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Speaker 1: As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: zeroed in on you, famously calling you that woman from Michigan.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I'm a member of that club I've

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Speaker 1: been tweeted about by Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: He called me.

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Speaker 1: It has been a number of years ago, and I'm

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Speaker 1: still here, so that's good. But you know you, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was really funny and great how you turned

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Speaker 1: that Michigan woman into an asset instead of a liability.

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Speaker 1: Talk to us about that.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, I've learned over the year, so

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Speaker 2: you know how to deal with bullies, right.

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Speaker 1: It's oh, in fact, you were bullied, remember, I mean remember,

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Speaker 1: of course you remember, but you wrote about it in

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00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: your book that you had your share of bullies growing up.

436
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize, listen, take

437
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: their weapon and make it your shield. When he called

438
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 2: me that woman from Michigan, you know, was I hurt, No,

439
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 2: not at all, But was I worried about what he

440
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: would exact retribution and not work with us on you know,

441
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: all the things we needed during the pandemic. But I

442
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: decided to wear a T shirt that someone from the

443
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me

444
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: that said that woman from Michigan. I wore it on

445
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: Trevor Noah's show.

446
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 3: And a lot of people started wearing it, right.

447
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: They did, and everywhere I went, I mean, it became

448
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: this thing, that woman from Michigan. I write about it

449
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: in the book. But I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and

450
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: a woman came up to me and she had framed

451
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 2: a picture she drew of me, and it said that

452
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: woman from Michigan. And I was said, Oh, that's so nice,

453
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: and then she showed me she'd also had a tattooed

454
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: on the back of her leg. I was like, oh

455
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: my god, that's called that's called serious support.

456
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: Right, that's so funny.

457
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 2: But you know, I do think that when when a

458
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: bully it comes for you, you need to flip their

459
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: their insult and make it your your cause for action.

460
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: And that's what was the reaction, by the way, from him.

461
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: Did you hear did he tweet about you again?

462
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: Oh? Anytime he tweeted, Just like I'm sure anyone who's

463
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: been tweeted about by the former president, you know, we

464
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: saw more anger coming my way. But yeah, I mean

465
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 2: I was a frequent target of.

466
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: His, And how did you handle that? Because you know

467
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: it hurts on some level. Listen, no matter what when

468
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: people are saying nasty, mean things about you, you can

469
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: pretend it doesn't it's not wounding. But you know, I

470
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: can have some name, this faceless anonymous person on Twitter

471
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: saying something mean about me, and actually it's like it's

472
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: like stabbing me in the heart a little bit. I

473
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: get used to it and I get over it, but

474
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: it still kind of hurts.

475
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean we're we are human. I you know,

476
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about kind of the Whitmers, and

477
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: I think being a Whitmer and being gen X, there

478
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: maybe are a couple of similarities there right that have

479
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: been very pronounced. But Whitmers have short memories and fixed skin.

480
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you, because God knows you need so

481
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: you need those in politics, and you need more than that,

482
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 1: because you need security.

483
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: Gretchen Whitmer.

484
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: I mean, in twenty twenty, a plot to kidnap and

485
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: kill you by a right wing militia group was discovered.

486
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: Take us back to that moment. I mean, that's not

487
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: a mean tweet. That's a really scary situation. How did

488
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: you even begin to process something like that? And you know,

489
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: just take us back to what that was like.

490
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: You know, it was really startling, to be honest, that

491
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: for one of my briefings. You know, governors were doing

492
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: regular briefings around COVID, what the numbers were, what, you know,

493
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: what was happening in our states. And I went down

494
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: to do one and they'd had a protest at the

495
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: capitol and people didn't know I was in my office.

496
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: My office actually the working office is across the street from.

497
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: The Capitol and tell us again what the protest was about,

498
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: because I think people don't remember maybe what was going on.

499
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 2: We had I issued a stay at home order. It

500
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: was for like three weeks, and everything was going. You know,

501
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: people were pretty compliant until the former president singled me

502
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: out and then we started seeing protests and then my

503
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: legislature turned against and started suing me and trying to

504
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: take away my powers, et cetera. And I remember going

505
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: down for one of my briefings and looking out at

506
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: this protest that they'd organized. It was called Operation Gridlock,

507
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: and they brought all their cars downtown and parked in

508
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: the street and were making noise. And I knew that

509
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: they were going to protest, and I thought, Okay, it's fine.

510
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate

511
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: flags and Nazi symbolism. And there's a picture in the

512
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: book that I took with my phone that had someone

513
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: had on the back of their pickup. This halfway is

514
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: why we have the Second Amendment, you know, gun threats

515
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: and a barbie and a noose that looked like me.

516
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: And this was I think the moment where I realized, Wow,

517
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: I mean, this has taken a whole new level of danger.

518
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: And sounds like some foreshadowings of January sixth.

519
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: Well exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people

520
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the

521
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 2: gallery with their automatic rifles. It was absolutely when January

522
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: sixth happened, I maybe was one of the few people.

523
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: That felt like I've seen that movie before.

524
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: Wasn't a surprise? Yeah, and then when it culminated into

525
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: this plot, you know, I think that was one of

526
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: those mon.

527
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: How did you learn about the plot?

528
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: The head of my detail so in the Michigan State

529
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: Police said, you know, I'd like to sit down with you,

530
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: and we chatted and we're both masked up, you know,

531
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: we were still in the thick of everything. He said,

532
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 2: I just want you to know you and your family

533
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police

534
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: are working with some informants who have been a part

535
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: of a plot of ten to fourteen people who have

536
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 2: been are planning to putting together a plan to kidnap

537
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: and kill you.

538
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: And lord, I mean even hear you, hearing you say that,

539
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: it's like, holy shit.

540
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was scary, and you know, I wasn't leaving

541
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: the house much with the state Police do a wonderful

542
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: job keeping my family and me safe.

543
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: I was going to say, how did it change life

544
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: for you and your family? I'm sure. I mean, you

545
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: can't kind of live normally after something like that happens, right.

546
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I always tell people I love people.

547
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: That's why I do. Yeah work, I do. I love

548
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: going into especially going into unexpected places and having conversations

549
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: with people.

550
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: That must be fun.

551
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, I mean, it really is. That's I

552
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: got into all eighty three counties in my first election,

553
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: and you know, I'd love to ask people what can

554
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: I do for you? What's going on in your life?

555
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: And now, you know, going into a crowded room and

556
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: you know, certain parts of the state, I feel much

557
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: more aware. I'm much more concerned about where the exits

558
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: are and who's there. And it's it's really sad that

559
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: anyone in public life has to think that way, but

560
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: we do know.

561
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: You know, I thought it was interesting that you would

562
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: like to meet with some of the people who are

563
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: planning to kidnap and kill you. That's really admirable, but

564
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: also in some ways hard to fathom.

565
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: I was because you think I'm not so well.

566
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've done so many stories about

567
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: children who have been brutally murdered, and this extraordinary act

568
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 1: of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to

569
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: meet someone who killed her own child. I mean, I can't.

570
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: I've done many stories about that. So in some ways

571
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: I understand your impulse. But what would you like to

572
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: learn from them? I imagine it's like you want to

573
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: understand what is motivating these extreme right wing individuals.

574
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: I do. I would love to talk, especially with one

575
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: of the ones that worked with the government and testified

576
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: and has shown a little bit of remorse. So I'd

577
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: like to just understand how did this come to be

578
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: and what was fueling and what was really going on

579
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: with people. Because taking up arms and planning to assassinate

580
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep

581
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: people alive, it's not a rational reaction. So what else

582
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: was happening there? What can I learn from this? I

583
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: feel like every situation there's got to be a lesson

584
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: or I've got to at least try.

585
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: Not only what you can learn, but how you can

586
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: begin to bridge that divide. I imagine eight.

587
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely that's what it's all about. And maybe there's nothing

588
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: to learn, but maybe there is, and that's why I'd

589
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: like to take the opportunity to have that conversation.

590
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: It is interesting for me to hear you say at

591
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: the beginning that you appreciate some of the women who

592
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: came before you, who had to deal with just endless bullshit.

593
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: I might be included in that category in some ways,

594
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: in other ways not so much. But I'm curious about

595
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: being a female politician today. I'd like to read this

596
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: passage from an article about you in The Washington Post

597
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: that came out in July of twenty twenty two. Whitmer

598
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: is a woman, but she is also an attractive woman,

599
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: and her use of executive power, when wielded broadly, seems

600
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: to deeply trigger her male antagonists. The Republican leader of

601
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: the state Senate, Mike Shirkey, bragged on a hot mic

602
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: that he had quote spanked her heart on budget, spanked

603
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: her herd on appointments, and also so contemplated inviting her

604
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: to a fistfight on the Capitol lawn. Another Republican lawmaker,

605
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: Senator Ed mcbroome, complained that Whitmer had been quote neutering

606
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: him and his colleagues the cause of the legislature's emasculation.

607
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean, this was twenty twenty two, Gretchen Wimmer, This wasn't.

608
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: Like eighteen thirty nine.

609
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 1: So, I mean, sexism is so pervasive and deeply rooted,

610
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: and I'm curious how it's manifested itself in your tenure

611
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: as governor.

612
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean frequently. And one of the great things

613
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: is right now in Michigan, we've got all the statewide electeds,

614
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: excluding my Lieutenant governor, are all women. And it's been

615
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: great to be, i think, surrounded by people who are

616
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: ready to step into their and to own the power

617
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: of the office that they have been elected to and

618
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: to use that power to do the things that they

619
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: ran on. It's we feed off one another that gives

620
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: you great encouragement to one another. But there's no question

621
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, I remember getting man explained by my

622
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: two Republican leaders. They were both in the majority, the

623
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: Speaker of the House and that guy Shirky who you

624
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: just mentioned, and they were telling me about what the

625
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: law was and why I was out of bounce. I'm

626
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: the only lawyer in the conversation, Katie, but they're telling

627
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: me what the law is, and I thought, I don't

628
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: believe any of my meal predecessors would have ever gotten

629
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: this kind of a man spleening lecture. And in fact,

630
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: after I won the lawsuit, I didn't have to go

631
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: out of my way to point it out that I

632
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: was actually right on the law. But it is. It's

633
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: one of those things that women have to waste energy

634
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: on thinking about how do we react to every one

635
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: of these all the incoming. Do we make an opportunity

636
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: to educate the person about why what they just did

637
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: was out of bounds? Do we laugh it off, like

638
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: you're silly and I'm not going to give you the

639
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: time of day. Do we go dafund for tiding to

640
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: hear it?

641
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: Do we take stifle ourselves side it like when someone says,

642
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: what is it called? When you suggest something and nobody responds,

643
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: then their man suggests it.

644
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 3: A butterfly effect, Yeah, yeah, and.

645
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, what a great idea.

646
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the woman put it on the table and

647
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: then the man let it give it the way to fly. Yeah.

648
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's challenging, without question, but you know,

649
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: as the mom of two daughters, I'm always mindful of that.

650
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: I've got to show up and be tough and think

651
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: about how I model what is doable, but also how

652
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: we hold people accountable and how when women lead we

653
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: get shited done.

654
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: And also I think isn't the best revenge doing the

655
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: job well right and being right about the law when

656
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: you're being explained by two non lawyers what it is.

657
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of that is, I think one

658
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: of the best ways, like being successful at what you do.

659
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: But I think female power is still very threatening to men,

660
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: and I think in a way it's not their fault

661
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: because they've been culturally conditioned to I think, especially older

662
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: men honestly and some younger men, to see gender roles

663
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: as so specific and it's so reinforced in so many

664
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: ways in our society, whether it's billboards or images. And

665
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to interesting education professor at Harvard

666
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: because I had done an hour on gender inequality in

667
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she talked about, you know,

668
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: our brains are wired to make these connections, and when

669
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: you're surrounded by certain things like your mom is always

670
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: doing the laundry or washing the dishes or cooking, you know,

671
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: you do make this connection, wiring gets kind of built

672
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: into your brain that there are certain roles for women

673
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: in certain roles for men. And that's why it's so

674
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: important that we have to break these roles, because that

675
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: will result in breaking these stereotypes right.

676
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: Right, and we have to be intentional about it, and

677
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: we're always have to do that. Math is this, the moment?

678
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: Is this? How do I respond to this? And how

679
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 2: do we break those molds?

680
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: I have to ask you, as the mother of two daughters,

681
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: I also am the mom of two daughters. You have

682
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: Sharry twenty two in Sydney twenty how concerned are you?

683
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I am deeply concerned about what is happening

684
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: to reproductive rights in this country. I don't have to

685
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: necessarily read the statistics, but maybe it would be helpful

686
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: to our listeners. Fourteen states have abortion bands and almost

687
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: all circumstances fourteen states. Three states have enacted bans or restrictions,

688
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: but abortion remains legal for now as courts determine whether

689
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: these laws can take effect. That's Montana, Wyoming, and Iowa.

690
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: Seven states have gestational limits raging from six to twenty

691
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: two weeks, and twenty five states and DC still have

692
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: legal abortion. You know, people used to kind of make

693
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: jokes about the Handmaid's Tale, but it does seem eerily

694
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: prescient now in terms of what has happened as Roe

695
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: was overturned and it was handed back to the States.

696
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: So what do you, I mean, honestly, how do you

697
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: process all this?

698
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, it's shocking to be in a situation

699
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: where a right that I've had my whole life's not

700
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: very much in jeopardy for my daughters. To think what

701
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: the ability to have reproductive freedom and access to complete

702
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: healthcare has meant for generations of women in America, what

703
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: it's meant for our economy, what it's meant for our

704
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 2: ability to raise a family and do the things that

705
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: we need to do to take care of ourselves and

706
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: our families. And to think that our girls may not

707
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 2: always be able to say that they've had these rights.

708
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: You know, in Michigan, we would have reverted back to

709
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: a nineteen thirty one law with the Dobbs decision, But

710
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: I filed a lawsuit because I was getting ready when

711
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. I said, we had to scour

712
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: everything and see what we can do here, and so

713
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: we had an injunction from the day that the Dobbs

714
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: decision came down. I took a lot of crap for

715
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: filing that lawsuit because people said, oh, it's an overreaction,

716
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: they're not going to do that, or you know, you

717
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: don't have standing, it's not ripe all the stuff.

718
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: Don't worry so much, don't be such an alarmist.

719
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 2: They'll never do that. But we ignored that. We went

720
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: ahead and did it, and so we never lost the

721
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: right in Michigan for a minute. It gave the activists

722
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: and advocates that opportunity to collect signatures. We had it

723
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: on the ballot, and we want overwhelmingly in Michigan. Just

724
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: like other states where the people have been given an

725
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: opportun way in they say, hell, yes, we expect to

726
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: have these rights, whether it's in Ohio or Kentucky, I

727
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: mean red states. But it's still very precarious. If you

728
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: look at the language in the Supreme Court opinions, whether

729
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: it was the Miffey opinion or this new Idaho opinion

730
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: where they can give emergency medical care, which was a

731
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 2: positive right that just came out. But if they say, well,

732
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: we're not going to do anything more on this. It's

733
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: a punt, which means it's still very much in play.

734
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: And even in a state like Michigan or New York

735
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: or California, where we think that this is settled, it's not.

736
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: It's not.

737
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court doesn't really change in terms of

738
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: who's on it anytime soon. Right? Can there be a

739
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: federal law? And how likely would a federal law legalizing

740
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: abortion nationwide happen?

741
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: Well, we have to have a democratic majority of both

742
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: the House and the US Senate and president who would

743
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: sign the bill, which the only one running for president

744
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: right now is President Biden, who would actually sign a

745
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: bill that restores our reproductive freedom across this country?

746
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: But how likely would it be that that would pass

747
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: given the complement of the House and Senate, even on

748
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: a good day, even if the Democrats control both houses? Right? Is,

749
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: don't you need two thirds and you need a supermajority?

750
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: And that's not in the foreseeable future, sadly, But I

751
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: would say that what is in the foreseeable future is

752
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: this next presidential election and the opportunity to appoint more

753
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: justices and as these cases come back, whether it's someone

754
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: who now does have standing or it's one of the

755
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: other procedural reasons that they didn't actually decide the merits

756
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: of reproductive rights. Who's on that court really matters more

757
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 2: than ever, and the next president the next four years

758
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: may have a couple of appointments.

759
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: After this break.

760
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: Rereteus thoughts on recent ethical breaches at the Supreme Court.

761
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: In a word, she says, it's scary. She'll tell us

762
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: why right after this. You know, I'm curious as a lawyer, Gretchen,

763
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: how you feel about the Supreme Court these days. You know,

764
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: they've gone down in terms of the level of respect

765
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: people feel or the trust they have in the High Court.

766
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: Really weird stuff going on with Clarence Thomas ethically and

767
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: Samuel Alito flying the upside down flag that was really

768
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: the symbol for insurrectionists, even though his wife flew it.

769
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: It was their mutual domicile after all, I mean, what

770
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: the hell is going on with them?

771
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? Can we just talk about like Bob Menendez and

772
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 2: Justice a little boy, I mean their wives for yeah. Anyway, Yeah,

773
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, I have I feel really really you know,

774
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 2: unsettled by everything that's happening with the Supreme Court, because

775
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: as a as a public servant, as someone who's taken

776
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: oaths to the Michigan Constitution, the US Constitution, as a

777
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: lawyer who as an officer of the Court, I take

778
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: all of these ethics and responsibilities very seriously. I know

779
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: that confidence in our democratic institutions is plummeting, and now

780
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: that it applies to the Court as well, and it's

781
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: scary because those are the underpinnings of this democracy. And

782
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: if I'm not confident in the Court that I've been

783
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: raised and educated to revere, I don't know how how

784
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: anyone can be. And I think that's very worrisome. I'd

785
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 2: love to see the Court actually have some ethics laws

786
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: that they have to follow and they get held accountable

787
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: to because I think this is just really corrosive for

788
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: our democracy.

789
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: And I guess they made an attempt to, but they

790
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: really didn't have any teeth. Jodi Kanter did a lot

791
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: of reporting on this for The New York Times, and

792
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: I interviewed her and she said that these ethics laws

793
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: basically didn't have any meat to them. And it seems

794
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: to me like it's high time for these justices to

795
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: be held to account for some of their behavior. And

796
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: I mean, they're so biased obviously, And I don't know,

797
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: how do you find a Supreme Court justice in this

798
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: day and age that isn't biased one way or another, right?

799
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: Well, And I think you know the fact that they

800
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: went into Congress and said that Roe was the settled

801
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: law of the land. They flat out wide to Congress.

802
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really stunning when you step back and

803
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: think about all the different ways that the standards and

804
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: the ethics and confidence in these institutions has been eroded.

805
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: When you've got three appointees who say one thing and

806
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: do the other and betrayed the people, it's really destructive.

807
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime

808
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: soon because how old is the oldest justice? I have

809
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: to look this up, But doesn't seem like anyone or

810
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: any of them are particularly near retirement, does it?

811
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: Well? In Washington, do you see the average age of

812
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 2: services quite old? So?

813
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: Right, So, I don't maybe the legislative thing, which seems

814
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: unlikely too. So we're kind of in a bit of

815
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: a bind when it comes to abortion rights.

816
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: Right and yet where we are isn't locked, and it

817
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 2: could definitely slide backwards. And I think that's the big

818
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: concern that I have talking to Michigan Anders who work

819
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: so hard to get us on the right side of

820
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: this issue now to know it could all be for

821
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: naught with you know, a future Supreme Court ruling.

822
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know that you are part of President by

823
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: Re election campaign, but I wanted to ask you about

824
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 1: something he said during the twenty twenty election. In twenty twenty,

825
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: Joe Biden appeared at a campaign stop and he was

826
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: with you, Kamala Harris, and Corey Booker, and he said

827
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: he viewed himself as a bridge, not as anything else.

828
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: I interviewed Vice President Harris not too long ago, and

829
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: I said, Hey, did you think that bridge was going

830
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: to take four years to build or eight years to build?

831
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of people really did think

832
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden, given his age, was going to be

833
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: a one term president.

834
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 3: WTF.

835
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer, you know, I remember we were on that stage.

836
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: It was actually the last rally of the whole campaign

837
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: because COVID, the first two cases in COVID came the

838
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: night of the election in Michigan, and that's why he

839
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 2: was there. We were having our primary and I remember

840
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: it vividly because we were all, you know, hugging one

841
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 2: another but not shaking hands. And it just like makes

842
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: me cringe thinking about it because we didn't know its

843
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 2: respiratorially spread to talking to one another but shaking hands.

844
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: But anyway, I'm glad you didn't get him sick.

845
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 2: Oh God, But you know, I do think that that

846
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: was that was what he communicated. He has gotten so

847
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: much done in four years. He's got he wants to

848
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: continue the work for the next four The field is set.

849
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: I know people keep saying, well what about this one?

850
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 2: About that? The field is set, and we've got a

851
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 2: very stark choice in front of us in this country.

852
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: And the good news is future in future elections. There's

853
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: a very deep bench of incredibly talented democratic leaders in

854
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: this country right now. I think about all of my colleagues,

855
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, everyone from from Joshapiro to Wesmore to Michelle

856
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: Leuhan Grisham to you know, Gavin Newsome, JB. Pritzker.

857
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there's Mitch Landrew kind of seemed Mitch Landry

858
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: semi interested when I asked it the other day. Gina,

859
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: I hear her name often.

860
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it really is a deep bench of

861
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: incredibly talented people, deeper than we've had in a long time.

862
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,919
Speaker 2: So I think it's exciting to think about what does

863
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: the next the next one look like. But right now

864
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: we got a stark choice. So that's WTF, Katie.

865
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: One person you left out of that list was Gretchen Whitmer.

866
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm honored to be included with that group.

867
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: I do think that whenever I think of future leaders,

868
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: inevitably your name comes up, which is a really nice compliment,

869
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: and you know, an incredible show of support. And you know,

870
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: obviously you're not gonna tell me, yes, Katie, I'm running

871
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight and i'd like to announce it

872
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: on your podcast, But you know, does it appeal to

873
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: you this idea of potentially one day running for president?

874
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: And I mean, that's a huge, huge thing, And you know,

875
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: given some of the threats on your life already and

876
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: your family and just the grueling nature of running for

877
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: president for any person, man or woman, how do you

878
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 1: think about it right now? I know it's in the future,

879
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: and I'm not this is not a gotcha question. I'm

880
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: not trying to pin you down, but I'm just curious,

881
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: as as a person who believes deeply in public service.

882
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: How you think about it, Well.

883
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 2: The truth is I'm not thinking about it right now.

884
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: I'm really not, and i don't know what happens. I've

885
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: got two and a half more years of being governor.

886
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: We've got to get through this crucial election. Got a

887
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: lot of work that I want to get done. You know,

888
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: the possibility of that is something that is an overwhelming

889
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: thought that would have to be, you know, given the

890
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 2: proper attention and consideration. And I'm not in any position

891
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: to do that right now. So when people say what

892
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 2: are you going to do after yours on being governor?

893
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: I like to say, I'm want to walk the earth

894
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: for a year and figure out what it is I

895
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: want to do next. I say that kind of joking,

896
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: but I do care about where we are. I do

897
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: want to be a part of a solution making room,

898
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: at the table for voices that haven't always been there.

899
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: And if I've got something to contribute, whether it's you know,

900
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: as a candidate or as a supporter of a great candidate,

901
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to stay engaged one way or another.

902
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: I also think, like, if your head's not in the

903
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: game for what you're doing right now, You've got a

904
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: huge role, a lot of responsibility. If you're thinking too

905
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: much about the future, you're going to screw up the present, right.

906
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you can't take your eye off the ball.

907
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: I mean, these are heavy duty jobs and people are

908
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: relying on us. Yeah.

909
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: And one thing people are relying on you, Governor, is

910
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: to help Joe Biden win the state of Michigan. And

911
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: right now President Biden and former President Trump are running

912
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: neck and neck there. How are you going to do that?

913
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 2: Well, I've told everyone, don't clutch your pearls when we're

914
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: down two points, don't celebrate when we're up due points.

915
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: Just make peace with the fact that this is going

916
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: to be close all the way through the election. I

917
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: always remind people months out before my reelect, everyone was

918
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: right in my political obituary, Katie, and they said they

919
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: don't no way was that woman from Michigan who locked

920
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: people down and Democrat in the White House. No way,

921
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: because you get re elected in a state like Michigan,

922
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: and I ended up winning by almost eleven points because

923
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: we showed up and we got into every community. And

924
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: that's the kind of work that we're continuing to do

925
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 2: and on behalf of President Biden. You know people are

926
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 2: They're good, hard working people. They're busy, They're not consuming

927
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 2: information the way that you and I are. They've got

928
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: to get the kids off to school, get to the job,

929
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: get the bills paid. I mean, people are trying to

930
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: get by. It's a hard time for a lot of.

931
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: Folks in the cost of living. Do you think President

932
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: Biden is really focused in off on the price of

933
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: groceries and gas, because that seems to be to me

934
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: an animating factor in how people are feeling right now

935
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: about these two candidates.

936
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: I think you can't tell someone how to feel. You

937
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: can't change the stress that someone's feeling in their household

938
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: budget by saying, well, look at we've got historically low

939
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: unemployment and take home wages and our economies better than

940
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: other countries. That doesn't make them feel better. We've got

941
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: to ask what is it that you need? What can

942
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: we do? And did you know that the president has

943
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: helped you keep more money in your pocket because of

944
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 2: all these investments that he's making, whether it's in infrastructure,

945
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: or it's in clean energy, or it's in debt relief.

946
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 2: And so I think drawing those connections are going to

947
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 2: be really crucial for us as we're going into the

948
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: next few months. But it's going to be tense and

949
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of work to do.

950
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: Michigan has the largest population of air of American and

951
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: Muslim voters, many of them strongly opposed President Biden's handling

952
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: of Israel Hamas war. I know you've been talking, and

953
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: I know you've made great efforts to reach out to

954
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: the Arab American community in your state, But how concerned

955
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: are you not only Gretchen about how they'll be voting

956
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: in Michigan, but also about young people. You know, it's

957
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 1: interesting a lot of polls show the economy is still

958
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: top of mind for young people. But you know, if

959
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: you look at the protests on college campuses and this

960
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: wedge that this war has put into place, not only

961
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: within the Democratic Party but almost generationally, how worried are

962
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: you about all those things coming together and hurting the president.

963
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: Well, I'm concerned. I definitely see the path through Michigan,

964
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: and we're working hard to ensure that we earn the

965
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: support of all of these communities. I know that a

966
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 2: Trump Part two would make things measurably worse, and I

967
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: think a lot of people know that, whether it was

968
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: around the Muslim ban or how he talks about, you know,

969
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: the war that's playing out in Gaza with Israel, that

970
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 2: we know that he represents something that would make actually

971
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 2: the situation worse. All that being said, we've got to

972
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: recognize that there are a lot of people that are

973
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: hurt in right now. In Michigan. We've got a huge

974
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: contention of Arab American voters, many of whom are also

975
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: Muslim voters, some of whom are also Palestinians. They're not

976
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 2: all one monolithic group, but most are one or two

977
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: degrees of separation from someone who's died in the fighting,

978
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: someone who's trying to feed their family still over in Gaza.

979
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: There's a lot of guilt being here and sadness that

980
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: American dollars are going into, you know, the pain that

981
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 2: their loved ones are feeling over there. Also say, we've

982
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: got a robust Jewish community her gosh.

983
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: While straddling those two groups and thinking dialectically, which is

984
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: increasingly hard to find, yes and thinking must be really difficult.

985
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: It is. And these are communities that have lived in

986
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: harmony for decades in Michigan, who've always been both have

987
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: always been a part of the coalition that I've been

988
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: fortunate to have the support of, and so I do

989
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 2: think that there's more work to do with a lot

990
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 2: of these voters. I think we will earn back the

991
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: support of most of them, but I think that we're

992
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 2: going to need to earn support of a lot of

993
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 2: new voters too, And young people, like you said, are

994
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 2: they see the humanitarian crisis playing out and they're very

995
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: upset about it. My own kids, I've had conversations, you know,

996
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 2: hard conversations with to know that they are feeling very

997
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: empathetic and sad and demoralized and angry about, you know,

998
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: the violence that they're seeing playing out every day. So

999
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 2: I think that my job in Michigan is to make

1000
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: sure both these communities feel seen, heard and supported and

1001
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: safe here at home, but also to try to find

1002
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: to bridge that divide. And it takes a lot of work,

1003
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: but it starts with hard conversations and continues with.

1004
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: Them and a lot of listening. I imagine too, right.

1005
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: Listening as a superpower, Katie. I've learned so much from

1006
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: people if you ask them what they need, what they want,

1007
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: or what's going on in their lives. They will tell you,

1008
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: and politicians who make the mistake of not doing that,

1009
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 2: I think are missing, missing the plot, missing what's really

1010
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: happening with people and the ability to help them.

1011
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, The book is true, Gretch. What I've learned

1012
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: about life, leadership and everything in between has been such

1013
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Thank you.

1014
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

1015
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

1016
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1017
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy

1018
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 1: world reach out. You can leave a short message at

1019
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: six oh nine five point two five five five, or

1020
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would

1021
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

1022
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1023
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx,

1024
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1025
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1026
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,

1027
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit

1028
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1029
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,279
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1030
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:55,680
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1031
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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Two