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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. Most

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Speaker 1: of us live in optimization mode. We pick the fastest route,

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Speaker 1: the safest neighborhood, the most efficient schedule. We always seek comfort.

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Speaker 1: But a life that is optimized for ease and comfort

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Speaker 1: also removes us from the experiences that make life worth living. Adventure.

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Speaker 1: It has been totally engineered out of our everyday lives,

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Speaker 1: and we are paying for it in ways that we

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Speaker 1: don't even realize. So we have two guests who are

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Speaker 1: coming on today to talk about adventure, how to get

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Speaker 1: more of it in your life, and how it can

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Speaker 1: fundamentally change you as a human, and how it doesn't

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Speaker 1: always have to be this big, extreme thing that's hard

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Speaker 1: to find, although if you do decide to go to

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Speaker 1: the extremes, your life will probably change a lot. First,

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Speaker 1: we are going to bring on Jay Carson. He was

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Speaker 1: a political operator and a Hollywood producer and writer. For

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Speaker 1: years he was winning the game of life. But then

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Speaker 1: an emergency happened and he realized that although he was

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Speaker 1: really great in all these worlds that had a lot

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Speaker 1: of spin, a lot of narrative, he was not competent

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Speaker 1: in the real world. He couldn't handle things that came

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Speaker 1: his way. So what he did is he decided to

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Speaker 1: take a survival course. Took two weeks in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the Utah Desert. He had nothing with him, and

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Speaker 1: it totally changed his life. It made him happier, it

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Speaker 1: made him healthier, more important, it made him a far

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Speaker 1: more competent human being in his day to day life,

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Speaker 1: and made him appreciate just how amazing modern day life is.

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Speaker 1: After that, we're going to bring on Sinway. Xavier Sinway

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Speaker 1: is an adventurer who argues that you can find adventure anywhere,

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Speaker 1: even in your own backyard. He has learned this by

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Speaker 1: taking the hard way and the ATHLETs traveled his entire life.

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Speaker 1: So he's going to tell us why this summer you

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Speaker 1: should get in your car, travel somewhere a little bit

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Speaker 1: off the grid, and go explore the spaces that are

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Speaker 1: right out your back door. So let's get into the

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Speaker 1: episode all right, now, we're going to bring on Jay Carson.

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Speaker 1: For most of his career he was a high level

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Speaker 1: political operator. He was the communications director for President Clinton.

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Speaker 1: Then he started screenwriting. He worked on House of Cards

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Speaker 1: and also The Morning Show, and then during COVID, the

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Speaker 1: power went out, and he realized that he had no

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Speaker 1: idea what to do in the event of a big emergency.

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Speaker 1: He was not self reliant at all, and so he

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Speaker 1: took an extreme wilderness course and it totally changed his

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Speaker 1: life and taught him new ways of living in the world,

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Speaker 1: acting in the world, and how to be self reliant.

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Speaker 1: All right, Jay, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Michael, it's so good to be here.

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Speaker 1: All right. So, for people who don't know you yet,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to set this up. So you

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Speaker 1: spent about and are still spending twenty five years in

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Speaker 1: some of the super optimized high pressure environments, and then

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one you sign up for this fourteen

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Speaker 1: day survival course in the Utah Desert, and now you

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Speaker 1: are an instructor at the school. So give us the

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Speaker 1: short version of how you got from that world to

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Speaker 1: being like I need to go out in the desert

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Speaker 1: and try and to survive for fourteen days.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what's the only thing harder than politics

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Speaker 2: or Hollywood? No? I really I think. Yeah, I went

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Speaker 2: from like probably the worst the second worst business in

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Speaker 2: America to the worst business in America, from politics to Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: But I.

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Speaker 2: Joke, But I think that there's something to that. There's

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Speaker 2: an unreality to the world in both politics and Hollywood,

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Speaker 2: and it's the world's less real in Hollywood than it

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Speaker 2: is in politics.

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Speaker 1: And what's that.

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Speaker 2: There are actual consequences to decisions in politics, right, like

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Speaker 2: actual consequences to real human beings, and that's not the

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Speaker 2: case in Hollywood, right Like there's the consequences to the

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Speaker 2: people on your show or your movie, but it's not

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Speaker 2: you know, the decisions that one makes in Hollywood don't

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Speaker 2: affect the lives of millions of people. I want to

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Speaker 2: be clear, I love writing, right, I'm not complaining about

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Speaker 2: that part. It's an amazing job to get to have.

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Speaker 2: But I think that I was without knowing it. I

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Speaker 2: think I was longing for something more real, more concrete,

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Speaker 2: more tactile. And there was a few incidents that happened

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Speaker 2: that we can get into that led me to want

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Speaker 2: to go do a Boulder outdoor survival school course. But

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Speaker 2: I think what was going on under the surface was

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Speaker 2: this feeling of a lack of connection to the real

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Speaker 2: world and I wanted.

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Speaker 1: To fix that. Yeah, for those who are not familiar

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Speaker 1: with Boss, give us the breakdown of what it is.

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Speaker 2: It's so awesome. I mean that it is so awesome.

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Speaker 1: I will I can fact check that as a journalist.

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Speaker 1: I did a mini course. It's awesome.

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Speaker 2: It's so awesome and so difficult, and I think that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I only understood why it had why my

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Speaker 2: fourteen day course had such an impact on me after

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Speaker 2: I read your book right, the Comfort Crisis. It was

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Speaker 2: this thing where ex post facto, I think that I

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Speaker 2: used my Latin correctly from I went to a public

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Speaker 2: school and making Georgia. So I went. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's why it felt like my life was changed over

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Speaker 2: fourteen days. But that is what happened. My perspective on

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Speaker 2: life in general and on my life was changed over

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Speaker 2: the course of fourteen days. And so essentially what we

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Speaker 2: do at BOSS is take people in the wilderness and

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Speaker 2: teach them how to survive with the land using almost

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Speaker 2: no gear. Right, it's essentially a knife in a while bottle.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a little bit more than that, but

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Speaker 2: there is no tent, no sleeping bag, no GPS, no matches,

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Speaker 2: no phones, no Internet, no any of the other stuff.

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Speaker 2: And so you really learn how to live off the

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Speaker 2: land and with the land. And the power of that

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Speaker 2: and the difficulty of that is it's really it's just profound.

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Speaker 2: I say that, I say, and it's true that it's

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Speaker 2: the most profound experience of my life, aside from my

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Speaker 2: marriage and the birth of my kids.

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Speaker 1: And wasn't it prompted because was it a power outage

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Speaker 1: or something? And you realize, like, oh my god, if

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Speaker 1: an emergency actually happened, I am completely incompetent. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea what to do. So tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: I So I grew up. I just mentioned I grew

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Speaker 2: up in Macon, Georgia, and I was a really outdoorsy kid.

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Speaker 2: Right its pre phones and my parents we had a TV,

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Speaker 2: but my parents wouldn't let me wash it. Basically, ever,

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Speaker 2: I spent a bunch of time outdoors and I love

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Speaker 2: the out doors. I feel very at home in the outdoors.

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Speaker 2: When my kids were born, my oldest is thirteen and

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Speaker 2: a half, I didn't know what to do with them.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what do you do with the kid?

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Speaker 2: And I had this instinct inside that you take them outdoors.

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Speaker 2: And we had moved We live in Los Angeles, but

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Speaker 2: we had moved to Topanga Canyon, which you can see

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Speaker 2: in the background is not skyscrapers, and you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of nature around us. Some of the best

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Speaker 2: hiking trails, some of the most beautiful hiking trails in America,

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Speaker 2: are like right out the door. So I started taking

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Speaker 2: these kids out into the wilderness, and it wasn't long

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Speaker 2: before I realized, inside, you don't really know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you got you out there by yourself

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Speaker 2: not knowing what you're doing, okay, but you're taking little

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Speaker 2: kids into the wilderness and going deeper and deeper because

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Speaker 2: I'm someone that pushes myself. And then we started camping,

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Speaker 2: and I just realized I didn't have a clue what

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Speaker 2: I was doing. But it was a nagging, quiet voice

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Speaker 2: in the background for a while until the beginning of COVID.

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Speaker 2: I remember there's stories on the news that the world

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Speaker 2: is ending, and it sort of feels like a zombie

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Speaker 2: apocalypse a bit. I've just set that back up so

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Speaker 2: that I don't seem totally crazy with this next part.

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Speaker 2: And we're like ten days into it, and a bunch

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Speaker 2: of countries in Europe are shut down, and America is

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Speaker 2: starting to shut down, and the power goes out at

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Speaker 2: our house and I describe it in my book, which

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Speaker 2: is because it was nighttime and the hum in the house,

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Speaker 2: the hum of all the electric stuff, you know, the

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Speaker 2: fridge and the dishwasher and the things charging, and that

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Speaker 2: it just went out. And I was like, that's the

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Speaker 2: power and my head went to the worst movie I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen. I was like, it's definitely twenty eight days later.

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Speaker 1: Totally because the context. The context is like no one

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Speaker 1: knows what's going on. Everyone thinks the world is ending,

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Speaker 1: and then bam, powers out. There's your sign.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just I really believe that things are

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Speaker 2: meant to be like that was supposed to scare me.

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Speaker 2: And it turned out that it was a power outage

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Speaker 2: on our street because they were working on the transformers, right,

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Speaker 2: but we don't have cell service here. So I drove

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Speaker 2: into town and I called Southern California Edison sure that

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Speaker 2: like no one would answer or I would hear them

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Speaker 2: being eaten by the zombies, and she was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's an outage on your street. It'll be back on

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Speaker 2: in ninety minutes.

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Speaker 3: And it was.

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Speaker 2: But the moment, the moment stuck with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like this realization that power goes out, you

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Speaker 1: have no service, you just go I don't. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea how to figure this out. I got to

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Speaker 1: I got to call someone and I don't have service. Like,

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Speaker 1: maybe I should start to figure out what I should

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Speaker 1: do in a situation like this, and anything else in

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Speaker 1: might pop up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So boss is in Boulder, Utah. And for listeners who

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Speaker 1: don't know where that is, which is probably every single

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Speaker 1: listener exactly.

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Speaker 2: To older Colorado, I know that place and it's like no, no, no, Bolder.

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Speaker 1: Utah, Bolder Utah. It's in southern iss Utah, middle of

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Speaker 1: the state. How many people live in Boulder four or

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Speaker 1: five hundred? Yeah, four or five hundred. So how soon

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Speaker 1: after that happened do you end up driving up to

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Speaker 1: the Utah and taking the course.

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Speaker 2: The beauty of it was that there was a long

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Speaker 2: lead time to going, so I got to have the

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Speaker 2: reassurance of signing up, but I didn't have to actually

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Speaker 2: do it for a while. And I think if it

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Speaker 2: had been two weeks from then, I would have been like, oh,

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Speaker 2: they have a course available in two weeks. I got

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Speaker 2: to go twist my ankle so I can't do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but there was a it was I was basically a

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Speaker 2: year away from the next courses because the season shut

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Speaker 2: down that first season shut down because of COVID, and

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Speaker 2: so I signed up. It was about a year later

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Speaker 2: and I showed up for a September course, a September

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Speaker 2: fourteen day, and it just changed my life. It was

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Speaker 2: sort of at BOSS, we max out at twelve students

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Speaker 2: on a course. There were twelve of us. Two instructors,

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Speaker 2: these incredible instructors, Michael Tallo and Tobias Corwin. Just I

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Speaker 2: mean the most I would be like, what's that?

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Speaker 1: What's that?

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Speaker 2: How do I do this? So I've never met two

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Speaker 2: more capable humans in my life. I mean, they knew

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Speaker 2: how to do everything. I would be like, what's that plan.

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Speaker 2: He's like, well, it's this, and the Latin name for

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Speaker 2: it is this, and you could use it for this,

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Speaker 2: but not the only the leaf the stem will actually

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Speaker 2: do And it's just like, what, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This information that is. So there's something that's so inherently

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Speaker 1: cool about that. And I almost think it goes back

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Speaker 1: to the fact that humans did have to know that

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Speaker 1: sort of information for all of time, and then things

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Speaker 1: changed and life modernizes, and now you know, if I

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Speaker 1: walk outside and someone said, hey, what plan is that.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean until two hundred years ago, that's the

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Speaker 2: crazy part. Until two hundred years ago, we all basically

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Speaker 2: knew how to do everything we needed to do to

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Speaker 2: take care of ourselves. And then I think the more

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Speaker 2: modern we get, the more the less we know in

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Speaker 2: terms of what to do to take care of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And I just I felt like I was missing something

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Speaker 2: as a human. I was hungry for more generalized skills

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Speaker 2: and a greater sense of capability. And I got that

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Speaker 2: through fourteen days, like a sense of like I can

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Speaker 2: do that. You know, I can try it. It might

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Speaker 2: not be as good as the carpenter would do, but

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Speaker 2: I can try. And then there's this feeling of there's

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Speaker 2: a feeling of self worderth honestly, no better way to

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Speaker 2: put it, but like, I am a capable person.

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Speaker 1: So it's fourteen days, But tell us what ho Like,

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Speaker 1: what was the first day?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: Just really, I don't want to scare people away from

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Speaker 2: the courses because they're amazing, but like it is, it's insane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you show it. There's eleven other people there.

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Speaker 2: M hm.

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Speaker 1: You get these two instructors then what happens.

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Speaker 2: You spend a bunch of time your first day. By

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Speaker 2: the way, we do seven day courses and twenty eight

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Speaker 2: day courses too. There was no way I've never even

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Speaker 2: done a twenty eight day Like I have got four

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Speaker 2: little kids. I'm not doing that for a while.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you.

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Speaker 2: Show up on the property and boulder. There's a long orientation.

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Speaker 2: I think at the moment that I tell this, I

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Speaker 2: tell this story in my book. Also the moment that

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Speaker 2: I the moment that I was like, oh, this is

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Speaker 2: something else is when they did a shoe rubbing. So

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Speaker 2: they were like hand out crayons and a piece of paper,

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Speaker 2: and they say, take off your left or right shoe

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Speaker 2: and they told us which one. I think it was

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Speaker 2: the left. Take off your left shoe and do a rubbing,

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Speaker 2: you know, take the crayon and rub it on the

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Speaker 2: put the paper on the bottom of your shoe and

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Speaker 2: do a rubbing. And I was like, and then oh,

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Speaker 2: and then write your vital statistics in the top right

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Speaker 2: hand corner. And I was like, excuse me, why do

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Speaker 2: we need this? And they were like just very matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, like, oh, in case you get lost, we

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Speaker 2: need the right information to turn into search and rescue,

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Speaker 2: and we want to make sure that the footprints were

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Speaker 2: tracking are actually yours. Oh And I was like, I

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Speaker 2: was like, uh, you've never had to abuse these before, right,

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Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, we have to use some pretty frequently,

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Speaker 2: so you know, make sure it's accurate. And then they're like,

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Speaker 2: but don't worry, We've We've found every single person that's

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Speaker 2: ever gotten lost.

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Speaker 1: We're good at this. This shoe is really just the

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Speaker 1: map directly to where you are in space.

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 2: I mean, then I was like, oh wow, this is

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Speaker 2: this is real. You know, this is not like we

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Speaker 2: also live in this Disneyland society where it's like or

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Speaker 2: this Vegas society where like you live in you know,

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Speaker 2: like I can go to Paris. You could drive to

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Speaker 2: Paris in thirty minutes, you know, it's right down to

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Speaker 2: and you can go to New York right after that

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Speaker 2: walk down. There's this fakeness to everything, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh shit, this is real, Like this is this isn't

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Speaker 2: a fake shoe rubbing to make me feel like I'm

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Speaker 2: doing something real. This is because they might need to

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Speaker 2: track my ass down if I get lost from the group.

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Speaker 2: And I was like oh, and so then you hike

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Speaker 2: off the property. A lot of this is is is

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Speaker 2: getting okay with a loss of control, and so where

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Speaker 2: are we going? We'll see, We'll see is the most

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Speaker 2: common answer. If you're looking for details about what's in

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Speaker 2: the future, We'll see is going to be the answer.

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Speaker 2: And so we hike for a while, a while, a while,

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Speaker 2: a while, a while. There's also where we start out

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Speaker 2: on a trail. We just walk right off the property,

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Speaker 2: we find a trail in the woods. We're not into

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Speaker 2: on a trail for a while. A mile in we

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Speaker 2: find a trail and I go, okay, we're on a trail, right,

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Speaker 2: I'm a trail hiker. I show up to this. I

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Speaker 2: didn't you know, You've like, I didn't know any other

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Speaker 2: kind of hiking existed. I was like, well, the you know,

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Speaker 2: like the Donner party didn't use the trail and like

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Speaker 2: they all died, you know. So we're on a trail

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, thank goodness. And I'm in the front,

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Speaker 2: right behind the instructor to Rallo, because I don't want

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Speaker 2: to get lost, right, I'm not going to be in

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Speaker 2: the back, like where Whoever's going to pick me off?

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Speaker 2: And We're on a trail for like two hundred yards

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Speaker 2: and then he cuts up off the trail and I

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Speaker 2: hear him mutter, man, I hate trails, And I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 2: you're the head and you hate what are we get?

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Speaker 2: Last trail I saw for fourteen days?

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Speaker 1: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: So we're just through the woods, through the desert, through

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Speaker 2: the you know, up and over until it's sometime in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the night. And they don't like it

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Speaker 2: when I give away this detail, but it's it's online anyway.

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Speaker 2: Here you're walked into and it's in my book. So

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Speaker 2: you you're walked into a spot. You circle up and

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Speaker 2: they go, great work today, guys, good night, and you

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Speaker 2: it's dark, really dark. We tend we try to start

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Speaker 2: courses on nights where there's no moon, and so it's

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Speaker 2: really really really dark. Darkest sky in the lower forty eight,

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Speaker 2: by the way, is right over that area of Utah,

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Speaker 2: and and we look around and someone goes this is

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Speaker 2: like a minute goes by, and someone's like, did did

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Speaker 2: did they leave? You know, like we can't see each other.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of dark, and yeah, so I was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't think so they wouldn't have left. So there's

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Speaker 2: this debate among the group that they had left, they

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Speaker 2: were gone.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: Right then that gnawing sense of I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to take care of myself. I kind of feel emotional

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Speaker 2: talking about it was I was like, oh, I have

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Speaker 2: no clue how to take care of myself.

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Speaker 1: I had been fronting.

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Speaker 2: I had been fronting to everyone. I have absolutely no

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Speaker 2: idea what to do, which didn't stop me from taking

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Speaker 2: charge of my group and suggesting that we sleep on

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Speaker 2: the sand that was around us because.

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Speaker 1: It's soft, which is a bad move.

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Speaker 2: It's the equivalent of tossing an anvil to a drowning person. Here,

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Speaker 2: hold this anvil, it'll help you. Like I suggested to

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Speaker 2: the group that we basically lay on the coldest, wettest,

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Speaker 2: most thermo deregulating substance that I POPI could have suggested

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Speaker 2: we lay down.

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Speaker 4: On Yeah, let's down all ice. Basically yeah, yeah, ice

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Speaker 4: would have been worse. How to sleep, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: Just awful. Like I had this. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: time it is, right, so I I get really really

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Speaker 2: really cold, like and I start to what I discovered

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Speaker 2: through that night and through the next few nights, because

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Speaker 2: to cut a little bit forward. What I learned over

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Speaker 2: the very quick next forty eight hours was how to

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Speaker 2: never feel that way again. And I have never slept

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Speaker 2: really cold again. If I've done the work to make

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Speaker 2: sure I don't feel cold, I know exactly how to

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Speaker 2: not feel cold in any environment. I don't need a

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Speaker 2: sleeping bag, I don't need a tent, I don't need

363
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Speaker 2: a fire. I know how to make myself feel warm.

364
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Speaker 2: But then I didn't know how I'm laying on the

365
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Speaker 2: freezing cold sand. I might have been like crying. I

366
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Speaker 2: was in such you know, I was so scared, and

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Speaker 2: I cry a lot. I'm not trying to dodge a

368
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Speaker 2: crying story, but I was like, I was really intense,

369
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Speaker 2: and I started to I think I figured out which

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Speaker 2: way east was, or I guessed which way east was,

371
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Speaker 2: and I just started staring at the horizon, just waiting

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Speaker 2: for the sun to come back up. I was so

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Speaker 2: cold and and scared that I started to have this

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Speaker 2: awful thought that like what if this is the day

375
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Speaker 2: that the sun burns out? And I was like, my

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Speaker 2: only hope is for the sun to come back up,

377
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Speaker 2: like I cannot get warm. What if it doesn't come

378
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 2: back up? Which is really sounds crazy, but it was

379
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Speaker 2: just I was just in that perseveration place. Yeah, I

380
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,760
Speaker 2: was spiraling. I was really spiraling, and the sun came

381
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Speaker 2: back up. And I learned that night that the and

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Speaker 2: this is another thing I learned from your book, but

383
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Speaker 2: I learned that the difference between discomfort, even extreme discomfort,

384
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Speaker 2: and danger is very far.

385
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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Danger is not nearly a closed to extreme discomfort. As

387
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 2: we are taught, and we teach our kids this more

388
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 2: and more and more, discomfort is dangerous. Get away from discomfort.

389
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 2: It's like no, which is created a comfort crisis. I

390
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,959
Speaker 2: feel like I just thought of that phrase. It's like this,

391
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 2: I feel.

392
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Speaker 1: Like I'm good. Someone tried to that. I do feel

393
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Speaker 1: like because we keep pushing that farther. Once you step

394
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 1: away from that even a little bit, people spiral, even

395
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Speaker 1: though they're not even close to the danger something. Yeah,

396
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 1: and it's almost like you need to spend time in

397
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Speaker 1: that spot where it's like, oh, you need to be

398
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: there in order to realize, no, I'm going to be fine. Yeah,

399
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 1: this kind of sucks, but Sun's going to come up

400
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 1: despite me thinking maybe it won't, and I'll be fine

401
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:41,880
Speaker 1: the next day.

402
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 2: Suck is so good for me, I need some suck,

403
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't have any suck in my life,

404
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: and I didn't have any real discomfort in my life.

405
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: And so I'm sorry. I'm not trying to keep I'm

406
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: not I'm sorry, but I keep pitching your book because

407
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: what made sense for me during that afterward, that reason

408
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 2: that night made sense to me and why it had

409
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 2: such a profound effect on my life, was that I

410
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 2: realized that absent true discomfort, this this brain was evolutionarily

411
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 2: seeking discomfort and problems in other places. So the temperature

412
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 2: in the room's not right, this meal isn't the perfect time,

413
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 2: I'm in a middle seat.

414
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

415
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 2: The plane's late? What is just the all of the crap?

416
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? A hotel room by the elevator,

417
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to listen to it Dan all night long.

418
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: Like this bed isn't comfortable. I don't even like these pillows.

419
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,199
Speaker 2: That this was my voice before boss, you know, the

420
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 2: traffic was, Oh, this person's gonna merge in front of me,

421
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: like just get And then I had that night and

422
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 2: I was like, dude, you don't even you don't even know,

423
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: like a room by the elevator. How about I sleep

424
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: on the floor by the elevator. At least there's like

425
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 2: thin dirty carpet and I wouldn't be freezing, you know,

426
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: Just a totally different shift that has stayed with me.

427
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 2: That's the craziest part.

428
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the fact that the instructors are

429
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: always saying, we'll see, we'll see where we go, we'll

430
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Speaker 1: see what happens. I don't know what what is the

431
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: purpose of that, and what did you learn from that?

432
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 2: The purpose is to get this to let go, get

433
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: the planning or monkey mind. Yeah, get the planning. Yes,

434
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: my yellow hat, just to get my yellow hat to

435
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: let go. Yeah, I know, get to get the monkey

436
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: mind to let go of needing to know, you know,

437
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: I need to know what's next, because then it will honestly,

438
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: you know, I've been a meditator for a long time,

439
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 2: like because then I can get out of right now.

440
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 2: This is uncomfortable right now. If I can know what's next,

441
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: and it'll probably be better than this, hopefully maybe. And

442
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: so we just say we'll see, and it forces us

443
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: to stay. It forces the student it's to stay in

444
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 2: right now, you know.

445
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: And so.

446
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 2: And also some of it's we don't want to spoil

447
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: the surprise. There's a When I finished the course, I

448
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 2: was like, I love Joseph Campbell and I read a

449
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 2: lot of his work, and I was like, this feels

450
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: like a hero's journey, Like this has the arc to

451
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: the Joseph Campbell hero's journey. So in researching my book,

452
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 2: I go and talk to Dave Westcott, who's essentially the

453
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: founder of Boss, and Wescott goes, yeah, I was trying

454
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: to base a lot of it on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey.

455
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 2: And I was like, you've got to be kidding, Like,

456
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: it's that that's by design. And so if you know

457
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: what the next phase is going to be, you're going

458
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 2: to start Okay, well tomorrow they're going to deprive us

459
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 2: of this and we're going to have to learn how

460
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 2: to do that. Now I'm thinking about that, and so

461
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: it's just you've got to be in the phase of

462
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: the hero's journey that you're in.

463
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And for listeners who aren't familiar with the hero's journey,

464
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: and correct me if I get any of the specifics wrong.

465
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: But Campbell basically studied all these myths throughout different cultures

466
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: at different time periods, and when he pulled back, he

467
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 1: realized they all kind of have the same narrative arc

468
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: and the purpose of these myths was in order to

469
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: teach people what was important in life and how humans grow.

470
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: And so basically, at the start of every story, you

471
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: would have this character where everything is great and comfortable

472
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: in their life, and then either a problem inserts itself

473
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: or there's a call to adventure. They hesitate, They're like,

474
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with this bullshit. This is

475
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: going to be hard. I don't want to leave this

476
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: comfortable world. But then when they accept the call, they

477
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: go into this landscape of uncertainty and trials and struggles.

478
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: But by going through that, they ultimately learn things about

479
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: themselves and the world they came from that fundamentally changes

480
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: them forever. And then they leave that experience a different

481
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: person with sort of new powers, if you'll call it. Oh,

482
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: much like your experience. Right, you enter that going middle

483
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: seats someone cut me off. This bed is too springy,

484
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: and then you find yourself sleeping in the dirt, going

485
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: good God, I wish I had that springy bed. And

486
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: so then when you come back and you end up

487
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: in a hotel that is, you know, maybe not absolutely perfect.

488
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, this is still totally fine in the

489
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: grand scheme of times. Way, I'm gonna have a great

490
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: night of sleep exactly.

491
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: I mean that, Yeah, that's the that's the hero's journey

492
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 2: to a t and it's it's what I realized at

493
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: some point I was on during the Boss course and

494
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: the profundity of it, the lasting profundity is that is

495
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: that when you go through a journey like that, it

496
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 2: it you know, it elevates your It elevates your long

497
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 2: term experience, and it elevated mine. There was a way

498
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: I began to carry myself after that with real confidence.

499
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: And that's what because I know you've done it. That's

500
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 2: what you see in the Boss instructor. Yeah, real confidence.

501
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: Like the most badass people I've ever known in my life,

502
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: men and women, they don't front at all bragging about

503
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: their skills. They're not like flexing about this or that.

504
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: They are so humble and so understated. And then you're like,

505
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: you know, they're like my guiver, like, how do you

506
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: build a helicopter out of this? You know, piece of

507
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: out of this, you know, you know, piece of sycamore,

508
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: and well, you just do and you're WHOA, you can

509
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 2: do that?

510
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: Like what?

511
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: And so that's that's what it. I felt like I

512
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: left the course with true confidence.

513
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: One thing that I think is really interesting is you

514
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: have told me that on BOSS courses, people that you

515
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: would think are total badasses, like former Navy Seal Special

516
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: Forces operators, they often don't do quite as well. And

517
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: why is that?

518
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Attitude is what I've seen makes the most successful BOSS student.

519
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: And that's not a take it down attitude. It's really

520
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: realizing that you've got to go with the flow of

521
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: what's happening out there, that the course is going to

522
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: take you on its own flow, and that nature is

523
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 2: going to also take you on its own flow. What

524
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: we're doing by having no gear, and this is Dave

525
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: Westcott's line, the founder of Bosses, we're stripping away all

526
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 2: the distance between you and nature. Most people I worship ARII.

527
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: I go there all the time. But like most ARII

528
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: campers are putting as much distance between themselves and nature

529
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: as possible. They're going to be out there, but they're

530
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: going to have as much distance as possible. And BOSS

531
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: takes nature and you and you're like that. And so

532
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: a storm comes in a weather change of the water

533
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: hole is dry. You have got to roll with nature

534
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: when you're out there. And sometimes the most rigid type

535
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 2: A people have a hard time rolling with that.

536
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: And so.

537
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: Over confidence is a real problem too. And so you know,

538
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: Navy seal will come out there. Really, I've done this.

539
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: I've done seal training, you know, and it's very different

540
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: than seal training. And and so you'll have the you'll

541
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: have the middle school principal who is you know, fifty three,

542
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: but rolls with a lot of bullshit come in her

543
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: way every day at school and no idea and no

544
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: thought that she can control it. Right, I roll with

545
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: this and the superintendent called, and this mom is yelling

546
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: at me, and it just navigates it like that. And

547
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: that person can crush on a course where a Davy

548
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: seal who's like it will be this way and this

549
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: way and this way and this way and this way.

550
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: It is not going to be this way and this

551
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: way and this way and this way. And so that

552
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: is that is sometimes where the badass military types. We

553
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: have plenty of military types who come and do an

554
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: amazing job on the course, but it's sometimes it's the

555
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: inability to the CEO who can't let go of the

556
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: fact that they're not in charge. The coolest part is

557
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: the course runs the gamut. Every course runs the gamut

558
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: from you know, you know a CEO to you know,

559
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: a twenty year old college student who's there on scholarship.

560
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: Man.

561
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: That is one of my favorite parts about it is

562
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: the real melting pot that happens out there on a course.

563
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: It's a it's a gathering of people who would not

564
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: otherwise probably mix with each other.

565
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a line from this guy who was The

566
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: Grateful Dead's band manager in the sixties and seventies. So

567
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: they would show up at these spots with all their

568
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: stuff and be constructing their shows and it was just

569
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: full blown chaos. And usually police would show up and

570
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: they would go, hey, who's in charge here, and the

571
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: guy would just go, the situations in charge, man, the situations,

572
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: the situations in charge. And I feel like that's kind

573
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: of what happens when you're out in nature. You can

574
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: do as much as you can, but the situation is

575
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: ultimately in charge. And the more I think people can

576
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: realize that, it allows it allows you to piv and

577
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: go with the flow and stop trying to do things

578
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: and control things when that's ultimately counterproductive.

579
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean I I've seen, honestly, the only

580
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: people I've seen, and I've only been doing it for

581
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: This will be my fifth season coming up, so I've

582
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: not been doing it forever. But the only people I've

583
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: seen leave a course are the kinds of not Navy seals.

584
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 5: Right.

585
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: I haven't personally seen a Navy seal leave of course,

586
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: but we've had that happen, you know, on more than

587
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: one occasion. Are the it's you. It's often the fittest,

588
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: most badass person on the course and they just cannot

589
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: let go over the course of the over the course

590
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 2: of it. Then that is, you know, they're sort of

591
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: missing the lesson in it, which is what we're doing here,

592
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: is learning how to roll with what comes our way,

593
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: not trying to bend the situation to our will.

594
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: For people who think this sounds masochistic, what do you

595
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: tell them?

596
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful. I can't wait to get I'm doing

597
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: one of our two hardest courses this year. I did

598
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: the hardest. I did the other hardest one two years ago.

599
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: It's the the Hunter Gatherer course. It was two years ago,

600
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: so no food except what you There are some rations

601
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: on our regular on what's called our expedition courses, the

602
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: Hunter Gatherer, there's no food unless you catch it, find it,

603
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: or kill it yourself. So it is basically fourteen days

604
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: of starvation. Because even though we're teaching you the lessons

605
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: of how to catch and kill food, it's like, you know,

606
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: if if you had Lebron tutor me for four or

607
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: five days on how to dunk, you know, the idea

608
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: that I could dunk on day five is no, I'm

609
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: five ten, I'm not gonna And so we're You've got

610
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: the best people in the world teaching you how to

611
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: trap and fish and hunt and forage. On day five,

612
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: you're not going to be amazing at it, right, Like

613
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: my traps would catch my hand more than they would

614
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: catch like rats and mice and squirrel. I'm doing the

615
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: the Wilderness Navigator course in July, which is just you know,

616
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: you're navigating solo off a map and compass. It's the

617
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: circuitous way of getting to your answer. And I can't

618
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: wait to get out there. It is such a reset

619
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: for me. It's I get so much quiet time. I

620
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: get fourteen days without my phone, there's no phone call,

621
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: no interruption. I do my best creative work. I almost

622
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: always come back from a course with a new movie

623
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: to write in my head, a new book to write,

624
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: a new a new approach to my family or wife.

625
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: And you know the way. And it's just I can't wait.

626
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful and it's not. It's not fourteen days

627
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: of sleeping in the sand and freezing.

628
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 3: Like.

629
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: We are not trying to punish students. We are trying to.

630
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: That's a vehicle. That's a vehicle for these larger things.

631
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: That's what you need. That it is in a way punishing,

632
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: but you couldn't get these larger lessons through the softer path.

633
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: That is exactly right, like my brain. If they had

634
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: been like there's a theoretical idea that you could be

635
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: cold on a given night. Now I'm in a classroom

636
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: right now, I'm going to teach you a lesson not

637
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: be cold, I'd be like texting, looking up. But I

638
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: froze for a night, and then they said, do you

639
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: want to learn how to not do that again? I've

640
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: never paid more attention to a lesson in my life.

641
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I know, I can I remember the words now,

642
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: we're doing this, and now we're doing this, and you

643
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: can learn this, and you can learn and I know

644
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: I can build. We learned to build death beds, and

645
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: you know I can build a deathbed anywhere as a result.

646
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: And so then the second night, I sleep warm, and

647
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: I can't believe it because I don't have a sleeping

648
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: bag and I don't even know how to build a

649
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: shelter yet. Right, it's just a huge deathbed that I

650
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: burrow into.

651
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: And I just have.

652
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: I find there's so much joy that I get when

653
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm out there. There's a lot of quiet time, a

654
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: lot of beauty in nature, a lot of of moving

655
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: quietly through the land, so seeing tons of animals that

656
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: I wouldn't see otherwise, and I love it. It's not

657
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 2: punishing at all. It's difficult, but not punishing.

658
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, obviously you're not doing BOSS courses, you know,

659
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: every month, What do you do in your daily life

660
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: now to get some of these lessons?

661
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: How do you get No, I turn the air conditioning

662
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: to forty eight every night and sleep on the floor. Now,

663
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: there are plenty of people who come to BOSS to

664
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: learn how to live this way all the time, and

665
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: I think that's awesome. It's not me Like I go

666
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: to boss to help me appreciate the life that I have, right,

667
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to live. I don't want to sleep

668
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: on the ground and a doff bed every night of

669
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 2: the year, not even for fifty nights of the year,

670
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: you know, like I don't want to I like nice

671
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: hotels like you know, I like all that stuff. I

672
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 2: just don't want to be the guy that's complaining about

673
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: the middle seat or the room by the end elevator

674
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: or this, you know, sort of bs made up complaints.

675
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: How is your BOSS course affected your work stress? Almost?

676
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: Did it change that at all?

677
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: Like to such a degree that it's almost unbelievable?

678
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 4: And I had.

679
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: Back to that perspective. So yeah, my perspective on middle

680
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: seats and a room by the elevator is great. But

681
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 2: like my perspective on what really matters in terms of stress,

682
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: it is the amount of stress and pressure I can

683
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: handle after a BOSS course is it's kind of I

684
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: haven't reached it yet. It's sort of the sky's the limit.

685
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: And because I don't have an easier approach to things,

686
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: and then that actually leads to more success because I

687
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: don't approach things with fear and gripping because I'm like,

688
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: this is not going to be as hard as not

689
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: having water for two days or food for five days,

690
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: or sleeping. This won't be that hard. Like this just

691
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: will not be that hard. This is not a real problem.

692
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: This person I'm working with is annoying. This thing isn't

693
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: going exactly the way I want. I have the perspective

694
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: on that.

695
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: I had the.

696
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: Wonderful mashup of Right after my fourteen day course, I

697
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: was pitching a television show with Hugh Jackman, so we

698
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: were I was the creator of the show. He and

699
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: I were executive producers on the show together, and two

700
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: days after I got back from my course, we were

701
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: doing like a series of pitches like forty eight hours

702
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: after coming out of the wilderness. I wouldn't recommend that,

703
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: by the way, but it was. It gave me a

704
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: very clear It gave me a very clear study, a

705
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: very clear data point on how it affected me. I

706
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: used to get really nervous before those things. I was

707
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 2: really you know, like a lot rides on my twenty

708
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: minute talk about what this thing's going to be like.

709
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: At the end of twenty minutes, the person could say

710
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: that's great. Here are millions of dollars, like for real,

711
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: that's how it can work. There's a lot at stake there.

712
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: I sat down for this pitch and Hugh sends me

713
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: a message, you know, a text, and he's like, you

714
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: seem really calm, and I was like, yeah, I know,

715
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: I'm you know, because you front like you're calm a

716
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: little bit before those things. But it's a little bit

717
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: like you know, another human can pick up anxiety and nervousness,

718
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, hey, everybody, let me tell you

719
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: this story. And I just I was searching for the

720
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: fear and anxiety because I was.

721
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: Like where is it?

722
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: And it just wasn't there. Wow, And it really hasn't

723
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: been there. I'm not saying I don't get scared or anxious.

724
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 2: I get scared and anxious plenty, but it is I

725
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: think the stakes have to be much higher for me

726
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: to get scared and anxious after doing a boss course.

727
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. I think for me in your story,

728
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: where this came full circle is when your house burned down.

729
00:37:52,920 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: About that, oh yeah, yeah it.

730
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

731
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: I felt like the wave of like oh right, you

732
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: know I was I wasn't sure where you were going

733
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: with the question. I was like, what will it be?

734
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: Oh right, my house burned down?

735
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this was how I fires.

736
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: What year was that?

737
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: January of twenty twenty five? January seventh of twenty twenty five,

738
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 2: and our house burned down. And then two weeks later

739
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: we were at my brother's wedding and our airbnb got

740
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: broken into and all the stuff that didn't burn was stolen.

741
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: Insane.

742
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: That was the fourteen day period that we had at

743
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: the beginning of January. And I I'm so glad you

744
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: asked this question because the other thing I learned on

745
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 2: a BOSS course was that I have a gear that

746
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 2: I can go into that I didn't even know I had.

747
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: Right the the I'm broken, I've got nothing left in

748
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: the tank. I can't go any further. And I learned

749
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: on a boss course because I didn't have a choice. Oh,

750
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 2: I've got actually quite a lot after that, Right, there's

751
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: actually a lot more in my tank than I thought.

752
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: And I really dug into that. I think I'm mixing

753
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: a metaphor here, but whatever i'd like really dug into

754
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: that reservoir after those two incidents happened. Because I have

755
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: four little kids to take care of having your home

756
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 2: burned down leads to an extraordinarily difficult year in ways

757
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: that I couldn't possibly have understood. It was, by a

758
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: long shot, the hardest year of my life. And it's

759
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: tough on a marriage. It's tough on your children, which

760
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: is tough on you because you're watching it be tough

761
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: on your children. It's tough on your finance. It's tough

762
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: on every single thing. It is a stressor on every

763
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: single part of I've been sober a long time. It

764
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 2: was the first I was like, I'll never think about

765
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: drinking like I thought about drinking, you know. I mean,

766
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: it was really the pain became too acute. But I

767
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: had this reservoir that I could go back to that

768
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: I knew I had because I have tapped it on

769
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: boss courses and I was also I also from Boston,

770
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: knew that I could be okay with not very much.

771
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: That was an important part of it, too, But it

772
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: really was that over the long haul, what it's been

773
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: is I have an extraordinary ability to deal with difficult

774
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: situations because I've dealt with a lot of them out there,

775
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: and again I've only been doing it for five years,

776
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: but a lot of like, what do you mean there's

777
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: no way down. We're up on a cliff and we

778
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: got to get Nope, I'm scared of heights, right, so

779
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: how are we going to get same?

780
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: You know?

781
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: And like that is a real difficult situation for someone

782
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: who is scared of heights, and like, I've done that

783
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: multiple times, and so I would harken back to those

784
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 2: lessons and it really helped me get through.

785
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was brutal.

786
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: Though I wouldn't recommend it, I recommend going on a

787
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: boss court. Part of the reason I recommend boss courses

788
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 2: so strongly is because you know, there's this I think

789
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: the first line of that great Scott Peck book of

790
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 2: The Road Less Traveled is life is difficult. I think

791
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 2: life is beautiful and wonderful, and I've had so much

792
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: abundance and amazing things in my life. But life is

793
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: also difficult. Everyone I know is going to die, including me.

794
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: You know, there's sickness, there is tragedy. There's all these things,

795
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: and I don't get to decide what day they come

796
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: my way. I don't get you know, Michael, I know

797
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: I've got some difficulty. I'm going to be ready for it.

798
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: In July because I'm going to be relaxed then, right,

799
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: but not the first two weeks because I'll be on vacation.

800
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: So let me just depencil in that house burning in.

801
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: July exactly like you don't know when it's coming, but

802
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: it's coming, right, and my boss course, and probably the

803
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: same way that the stuff you've and your story and

804
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: the comfort crisis prepares you for it, like it prepared

805
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: me for the difficulty. So I wasn't like, what the

806
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: hell is this? I was like, Oh, this is difficulty.

807
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: This is extreme difficulty. I know how to do this.

808
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: I don't like it, I don't want to do it again,

809
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: but I know how to do it.

810
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, if someone for whatever reason can't do a loss course,

811
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: and I think they should, what's like one skill they

812
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: could immediately use that you found useful for the average person.

813
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: Shelter and fire. I chose too, Is that okay? Yeah,

814
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: that's that's okay, shelter, Because as I learned on that

815
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: first night, there's just never a moment where you know,

816
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: I'm like about to run out of gas in the

817
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere and I'm like, eh, we'll be fine.

818
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: You know.

819
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: I got lost on a hike with my kids two

820
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: Christmases ago, and we got I figured out where we were,

821
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: but the sun was going down and it was me

822
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: and five kids. It's by myself, and I was like, oh,

823
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: but I was like I looked around and I was like, okay,

824
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: I could build a debris shelter up there. There's tons

825
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: of leaves around. The weather looks okay, We're going to

826
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: be fine. Like, so instead of freaking out about how

827
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: are we going to get out of here? I figured

828
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,479
Speaker 2: out we were okay, which it was almost like giving

829
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: the fear part of my brain an abacus to go

830
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: play with, and so then I could focus on, wait,

831
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: is this the trail we were on? And so I

832
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: got us out of there. My brain was able to

833
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 2: do what it needed to do instead of like, holy crap,

834
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 2: what are we going to do? So shelter is huge,

835
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,479
Speaker 2: Like anyone that spends time in the outdoors, I would say,

836
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: knowing how to build shelters, like you can be a

837
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 2: crappy navigator if you know how to build shelter and

838
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: fire is one of the deepest spiritual experiences that I've

839
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: ever had. Like it is there's a capability feeling to it.

840
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: There is an excitement to it. There's all kind of

841
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: practical reasons to have fire.

842
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: Right, Remember the first time you were able to start

843
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: a fire without a lighter.

844
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: I danced around like Tom Hanks and Castaway for real,

845
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: like I was by myself on my solo. I had

846
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: not gotten fire until Solo, which comes to the toward

847
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 2: the end of the Boss course where you're by yourself

848
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: in the wilderness. You've theoretically accrued the skills that you

849
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: need to be alone in the wilderness. And a lot

850
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 2: of people had gotten fire before then, and I was like,

851
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get it. And I got it,

852
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: and I was like that scene and Castaway, by the way, Boss,

853
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: that scene and Castaway came from Boss. Boss instructors were

854
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: the technical consultants on Castaway, so they taught Tom Hanks

855
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: how to build fire. Dave Wescott, the founder I've mentioned,

856
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: taught Tom Hanks how to build that plow fire, which

857
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: is the hardest fire to build. I got fire, and

858
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 2: I stood up and I was like, yes, I've made fire,

859
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 2: and then I cried and I talked to someone. When

860
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: I got back, I said this, it's this deep experience

861
00:44:58,600 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: that I had when I made so I made a

862
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 2: boat drill fire, and I cooked my dinner that night.

863
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: I ate dinner because I was able to make a

864
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: fire by you know, rubbing two sticks together effectively. It's

865
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: not quite it's a little more complicated than that, using

866
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: a mechanic, an ancient mechanical advantage. That's what I did.

867
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: And I made every piece of that myself with my hands,

868
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: and I built the you know, it was just And

869
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: a friend of mine said to me, he said, you

870
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: it was. It was deep and profound because it's it's

871
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: inside you. And I was like, what do you mean,

872
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: and he was like, you're here because your relatives figured

873
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: out how to do that thousands of years ago, and

874
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 2: the people whose relatives didn't figure it out are not here.

875
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: So it is literally like epigenetically, the ability to build

876
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 2: fire is inside you. And when you built that, you

877
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: tapped into something ancient in you, and a really good

878
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: ancient thing, which is this this feeling of like, okay,

879
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 2: I could build a fire with my hands and a knife,

880
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: and it was It was incredible and it's so fun

881
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: to teach. I teach it to kids all the time.

882
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: Most of my kids know how to do it. My

883
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 2: son's like bored with it now He's like, oh God,

884
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: are you going to teach fire again?

885
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: Dad? But like, you know, yeah, awesome. What does adventure

886
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: mean to you?

887
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 2: I was going to use the second part of adventure

888
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: in defining it, which would would get me in trouble

889
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: in college, going into the joyously going into the unknown.

890
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: You know.

891
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: It's like it's like, I what's over there? And so

892
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: I can have an adventure on a hike, you know,

893
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: into pang A Canyon when I'm like, what is that

894
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: little spur trail? Something I never would have done before?

895
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: Boss?

896
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: Right, Like we you know, don't tell the rangers. I've

897
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: just told the rangers, but we you know, we'll go

898
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: in Cowboy Camp in the state park around here. Good

899
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: luck finding us by the way. Yeah, because there's no tent.

900
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,959
Speaker 2: We just lay down on the ground where we are

901
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: on a tarp and sleep and that feels like adventure.

902
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 3: You know.

903
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: I can sometimes if we're on the right ridge, I

904
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: can see our house, but we're out there and it's

905
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: like it's definitely adventure for my kids. And my kids

906
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: will be like if they see me, but bring a

907
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 2: tent on a camp out, They're like, oh, Dad, you're

908
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: bringing a tent. We're not going to cowboy camp and

909
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 2: look at the stars. That's awesome and it's really cool.

910
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: I think too, what's interesting about your definition. I totally

911
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: agree with it. I also think that the first step

912
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: is awesome is often not joyous. To go back to

913
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: your time sleeping in the dirt, you had to go

914
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: through the hard part of it to then have this

915
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: mindset shift where you go, oh my god, this is amazing.

916
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: What have I been missing? But if you never take

917
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: that first step and are willing to have it be hard,

918
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: have it be uncertain, how all these things go wrong

919
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: in the process, you never end up with that complete

920
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: shifting of how you see those experiences that fundamentally change you.

921
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because when I tell

922
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: that story, I make it sound like if I were listening,

923
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: I would go, oh, he just like takes the spur

924
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: trail and never has any fear. He just like lays

925
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: down on the ground with his kids in the middle

926
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: of nowhere, And there's always the first step. That there's

927
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: something in here that tells me not to take the

928
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: first step. But what if? But what about this? But

929
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 2: what about that? I have a chapter in my book

930
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 2: called but what about bears? Because my most a very

931
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 2: common question among the laptop class to whom I'm usually

932
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: pitching boss is like and they're like lit up and

933
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: then you can see them go. But what about bears?

934
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 3: You know?

935
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: Okay? And now I've learned because the boss that's there's

936
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 2: only black bears around me. There haven't been seen in

937
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: a really long time. They are not aggressive. I know

938
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: how to deal, but like, it's the what about bears

939
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: question that keeps me from taking the first step, and

940
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: then I'm locked in this place where I have no

941
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: adventure in my life and I've I'm theoretically not taking risk,

942
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: but the long term effects of that are so there's

943
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 2: so much more downside and risk to not doing that

944
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: than there is when I, you know, cowboy camp with

945
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 2: my kids in the state park, or take the Spur

946
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: trail I've never taken before. And there's a voice even

947
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: when I cut down that trail, it's like, you know,

948
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: it's four o'clock and you know it might be sun's

949
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: going down and you don't really have the menu. You

950
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: might be you know you're going to be that My

951
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: voice does the Because I'm a writer, I do the

952
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: voiceover of the show where I'm lost, you know, like

953
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: going against most of his boulder outdoor schools survival training,

954
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: Carson took the Spur Trail with only a third of

955
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: his you know, and I'm just like, oh, Jay, come on,

956
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: like just but it definitely that's it's just fear, and

957
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: it's like getting over. I'm so glad you said that

958
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: the fear hurdle before. Boss was like, you know, how

959
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: big can I make it right to do any of

960
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: the new stuff for hard stuff? Boss took the fear

961
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: hurdle to about this big. It's still there, but my

962
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: ability to get over it is I have a much

963
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: greater ability to get over that fear hurdle, so I

964
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 2: have so many more beautiful and adventurous experiences.

965
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: Now.

966
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: There was a study that looked at safety on outdoor

967
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: courses for teens because that's a common thing with parents, right, well,

968
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: they might get hurt, and it actually found that kids

969
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: were more likely to get either killed or severely injured

970
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: at home living normal life. Yeah, because car accidents because oh,

971
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: maybe you don't realize what they're into, drugs or X

972
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 1: y Z like all these other things can happen. They're Actually,

973
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: you're safer in the wilderness, which is fascinating. And to

974
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: your point about the bears thing, I get that all

975
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: the time too. To have bears. It's like that book

976
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: A Walk in the Woods. Do you remember that book?

977
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: He spent like fifty pages on bears. And you're like,

978
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: has anyone ever been attacked by a bear on the

979
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,959
Speaker 1: Appalachian Trail? I don't think so. Why are we talking

980
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:58,439
Speaker 1: about this?

981
00:50:59,239 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 3: Yeah?

982
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: Exactly because it's we because our brains go to because

983
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: of honestly, because of Hollywood.

984
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: This is your fault.

985
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: We don't know how to make something dramatic, and so

986
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 2: we're like, well, what about if a bear attacked him?

987
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean, you go to places where there are grizzlies, right,

988
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: I've never I don't. I'm never in a place where

989
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: there's an aggressive grizzly.

990
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,959
Speaker 1: Ever, yeah, you know most places are unless you're listening

991
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: from Montana then there are some. But even then you go, okay,

992
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: bear spray, am I making noise? Like most most big

993
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: animals do not want to mess with you. They have

994
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: the same reaction to you that you have to them.

995
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: They're like, I don't want to mess with this this person,

996
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: like screw what I'm out of here because it's a

997
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: threat to their safety too. We have guns and bear

998
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: spray and we trap them and all these things. So

999
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: I think that is a massively outsized fear people have

1000
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: is of wild animals. Really, it's what the it's the

1001
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: weather that will kill you. But if you learn all

1002
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: this boss stuff and you pack, and even if you

1003
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: don't have the boss stuff, but you know how to

1004
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: pack the right gear, you're you're gonna be fine.

1005
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, find it be able to find water, build shelter,

1006
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 2: make fire, and have the confidence to know how to

1007
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: do those things, and you can stay calm and get

1008
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: yourself to the situation. I don't want to die, period. No,

1009
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to die having tried to avoid all

1010
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: risk in my life, you know, and look back at

1011
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: I hope it's ninety five right, and go, gosh, I

1012
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: should I had the physical ability. I won't always. I

1013
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: can't bring my dad. We have seventy somethings take boss courses.

1014
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: By the way, if you're listening and you're like, what's

1015
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: the how old could I eighteen to? We've had a

1016
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: seventy six year old do a fourteen day. I'm sing,

1017
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 2: but my dad's in his mid eighties. Now I can't.

1018
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: My dad can't do a boss course at this point.

1019
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 2: He's fit for someone in his mid eighties. But I

1020
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: know some mid eighty year olds that can't do it,

1021
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: but that can do it rather. But I don't want

1022
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: to be in my mid eighties in a period where

1023
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: I physically can't do it anymore, be outdoors anymore, be

1024
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: adventurous anymore, and think, man, I avoided theoretical contact with

1025
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: bears and kept myself safe in my little bubble here

1026
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: and missed out on my life. And yeah, the padded

1027
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: playground approach to parenting, you know, it hasn't made kids safer,

1028
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: and it's made them much more unhappy. This is all

1029
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 2: this you know parenting theory that I subscribe to. But like,

1030
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, when you don't let a kid experience reasonable risk,

1031
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 2: then they seek it out even more intensely once they're

1032
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: out from under your control. Right, right, then it's like

1033
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 2: I never got to do anything, like even I'm remotely risky,

1034
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 2: Like I'm gonna go for it, right, I'm gonna drive

1035
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: my car eighty five miles an hour and race people

1036
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 2: down the freeway. I'm gonna and that's way more dangerous

1037
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 2: than like let's go camp out on the ground.

1038
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Well, Jay, thanks for coming on the show Man.

1039
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: That was awesome.

1040
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, such a pleasure. And thank you for

1041
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: Like I said this to you privately, but I say

1042
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: it here, like, thank you for helping me understand and

1043
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: for helping so many other BOSS students, Like I feel

1044
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 2: like it's like required reading for a BOSS course. The

1045
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: Comfort Crisis helped me make sense of the power of

1046
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: my of that program, the power of what we do

1047
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: out there. Like I thought a little bit that I

1048
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 2: might be crazy, and then I read your book and

1049
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 2: I saw the science of why I was having the

1050
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 2: response to this and your experience and it. You know,

1051
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: it's probably what led me to really dive into becoming

1052
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 2: an instructor at BOSS was because I was like, oh,

1053
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: there's this is backed up, Like this is real. What

1054
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 2: I'm experiencing is replicable for everyone.

1055
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm super psyched to read your book. What

1056
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: are the what are the two finalists for the titles

1057
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: so we can so people know what to work.

1058
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, people can vote. There's my note. I don't want

1059
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: to lean people one word direction or the other. There's

1060
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: two birds, one stone. So remember our subtitle is how

1061
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 2: to how to how to learn survival skills and get

1062
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 2: happy in two hundred and thirty five thousand difficult steps,

1063
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: because that's how many steps we took on our course.

1064
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 2: So a student mistakenly left her fit bit in her

1065
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 2: sock or it was sewn into her pants or something,

1066
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 2: and so we knew literally how many steps we took.

1067
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: And then the other. So two birds, one stone, and

1068
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 2: then the other is what doesn't kill you makes you happier.

1069
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:30,439
Speaker 1: I like them both.

1070
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: I like them both too, but okay, so everybody I

1071
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: like the first one and everybody else likes the second one.

1072
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: So people can help.

1073
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: Put up to listeners. If you're watching this on YouTube,

1074
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: put your vote in the comment. If it's yeah podcast,

1075
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: shoot me an email and I'll relay info. All right, Matty, Well,

1076
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 1: thanks a lot for coming on.

1077
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Michael, I really appreciate it, total pleasure.

1078
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 1: Thanks. We're going to bring all my good friends. Sinway

1079
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: Xavier Sinway recently sold his house, but unlike most people,

1080
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: he didn't just go automatically by another. Instead, he packed

1081
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: up his truck with all his belongings and he started

1082
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:09,240
Speaker 1: traveling across the American West in the tradition of van life,

1083
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: but he also goes into some really remote, extreme places

1084
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: and very strange small towns, and what he has learned

1085
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: along the way is really important for our sense of

1086
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: adventure and how we want to live a good life.

1087
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: It turns out that adventure and finding it is one

1088
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: of the most important things we can do for our

1089
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 1: physical health, on mental health, and this time that we

1090
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: spend on Earth. And it also turns out adventure is

1091
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: much easier to find than we might think. So he's

1092
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: going to give us lessons for exactly how to find

1093
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: it no matter who you are, where you live, and

1094
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: what constraints you have. Let's bring them on all right, Sinway,

1095
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show man.

1096
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 5: Oh thank you for having me. It's I'm glad we

1097
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,760
Speaker 5: were able to pull it together, especially.

1098
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: Because you are in the middle of nowhere. Where are you?

1099
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 5: I'm actually just outside of Zion National Park, between Zion

1100
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 5: and Hurricane I'm on my way to flag Staff at

1101
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 5: the end of this week and giving a presentation on

1102
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 5: one of the routes that I put together, called the

1103
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 5: Utah Traverse at Overland exmo So about.

1104
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: A month ago you were rolling through Las Vegas. We

1105
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: met up and you told me you sold your house

1106
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: and decided to live out of the truck for a

1107
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: while unknown amount of time. Take us back to that.

1108
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: What prompted that?

1109
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 5: Well, I actually I gave myself till June first, okay.

1110
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 5: And what prompted it was, you know, I was living

1111
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 5: in Vail, Colorado, and it was such a terrible winner.

1112
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 5: You know, I think the West in general, we've had

1113
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 5: a terrible winner.

1114
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: Like nono terrible meaning no, yeah.

1115
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 3: Terrible winner.

1116
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 5: No no snow, I mean, you know, and living in

1117
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 5: a ski town, there's nothing to do. And I found

1118
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 5: myself just going, you know, cabin fever, What am I?

1119
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 5: You know, what am I doing here? A lot of

1120
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 5: time not getting those endorphins that I'm used to getting

1121
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 5: during the winter on the on the mountain skiing or snowboarding.

1122
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 5: And I decided to get you know, put everything into

1123
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 5: storage and just kind of hit the road.

1124
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 3: And I gave myself to June.

1125
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 5: First because my son gets out of school June fourth,

1126
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 5: and I wanted to him to have a landing pad

1127
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 5: to spend summer. When I told my son I'd give

1128
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 5: myself till June. First, I was really excited about here's

1129
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 5: here's this timeframe. But then he asked me why, and

1130
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 5: I was, you know, that's a good question. And he

1131
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 5: was like, Dad, let's spend summer on the road. Let's

1132
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 5: go up the coast and go into Canada. He has

1133
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 5: a sleep away camp in Maine in the middle of August,

1134
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 5: so that's our landing spot.

1135
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 3: Decided that we exactly.

1136
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, So now it's into August and I'm really about it.

1137
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 5: You know, it's it's super fun, and there's there's definitely

1138
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 5: I feel fortunate that I have the luxury of being

1139
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 5: able to, you know, get an airbnb every you know,

1140
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks, or I can jump into a

1141
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 5: hotel room, or I have a vast network of great

1142
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 5: friends that I can you know, call and say, hey,

1143
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 5: can I you know, crash in your driveway or stay

1144
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 5: in the guest house you know for a day or two.

1145
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's been pretty great.

1146
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 1: What has been the best part about so for context

1147
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: for listeners, I mean, you've done serious overlanding. You're familiar

1148
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: with living out of a truck, You've done that a

1149
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: couple of times. How has the game changed though? Once

1150
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: You've really elongated the time span, and now it's instead

1151
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: of a week or two, now it's like all the

1152
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: way till August.

1153
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: You know.

1154
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 5: It's it's funny because I've I think you still break

1155
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 5: it up as a week or two.

1156
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 3: I'm in a mid sized truck, you know.

1157
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 5: I'm in an AEV Bison with a go fast camper

1158
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 5: on it.

1159
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 3: It's not gigantic. I have a fifty five liter fridge.

1160
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 5: You know. I have to go back to the store

1161
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 5: every now and then. I mean, if I could, it

1162
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 5: would I would be out, you know, as long as

1163
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 5: I could. But I make it into civilization every like

1164
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 5: three or four.

1165
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: Days, okay.

1166
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 5: And and then I'm really mapping out, you know, between

1167
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 5: my projects.

1168
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 3: So you know, tomorrow I go to Ohi.

1169
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 5: To shoot for AEV, and then from there I go

1170
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 5: to flag Staff to give a presentation on the Utah Traverse,

1171
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 5: and then I go from there to Boulder, Utah to

1172
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 5: shoot for Stetson. So it's those are my determining points

1173
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 5: of bouncing around the West.

1174
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a good lesson in there for

1175
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: the average person that when you think about doing that,

1176
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: it becomes this giant equation of how am I going

1177
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: to do this? We're going to be out so long.

1178
01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: But really it's like just go places and you can

1179
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: drive into town at any point and be fine.

1180
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely.

1181
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 5: Scott Brady, who he is the founder of Overland Journal,

1182
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 5: we did a really big motorcycle ride from Bogotad of

1183
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 5: Venezuela twelve years ago. Awesome, and I was very intimidated

1184
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 5: by it, and he just he looks over at me

1185
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 5: and he goes, simile, how do you eat an elephant?

1186
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 5: Was like what?

1187
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 3: He goes, one bite at a time, you know, And

1188
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 3: that's the way.

1189
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 5: You know, every big expedition I've been on, you can't

1190
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 5: get caught up on the whole picture, you know, or.

1191
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: Else you're just overwhelmed because.

1192
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 5: Everything changes, you know, the from day one to even

1193
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 5: on a week long expedition, a week long trip, I

1194
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 5: hate using the word expedition. A week long trip trip,

1195
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 5: your idea of what's going to happen to day seven.

1196
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 3: It always changes.

1197
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 5: Weather changes, your car changes, you know, your vehicle that

1198
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 5: you're in, people get sick, you know, everything changes, and

1199
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 5: being able to adapt to that change is such a

1200
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 5: major key.

1201
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like climbing a mountain. Right, you

1202
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: just kind of put one foot in front of the

1203
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,919
Speaker 1: other and can I make it to that ridge? Great?

1204
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: We did that, excellent, Now we got to do more.

1205
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: Just kind of like you said, eating an elephant. What's

1206
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: been the best part so far for you? You know, it's

1207
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: it's really the freedom. It's the freedom and meeting.

1208
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 5: The the people out on the road and I and

1209
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 5: by that, I don't mean other travelers.

1210
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 3: They're great as well. However, it's you.

1211
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 5: You end up spending so much time alone that when

1212
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 5: you go into this small town you're not kind of

1213
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 5: of afraid to break the ice and have a conversation

1214
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 5: with someone and and really get to know, like what's this?

1215
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 5: And especially with my mission right now, it's you know,

1216
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 5: what's it like living in Mount Carmel, Utah?

1217
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 3: You know what what brought you here?

1218
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: What have you learned from people you talk to?

1219
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 3: You know, it's.

1220
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 5: Right now in our climate, our our worldly climate, it

1221
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 5: feels like people are really open to There seems to

1222
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 5: be a niceness out there, if that makes sense. People

1223
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 5: are just more interested in what you're doing, what you're

1224
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 5: up to, what got you on the road, And it's.

1225
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 3: It could be you know, because I am.

1226
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 5: On the road, and I am feeling more open to

1227
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 5: learning about people as opposed to in the past when

1228
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 5: I was out for a week at a time. There's

1229
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 5: always a bit of a mission to get done. I was,

1230
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 5: I was in a hurry. That's all gone. Now I

1231
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 5: can spend a half hour chatting with the old lady

1232
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 5: in Hanksville.

1233
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: Now you know, I've been to Hanksville. There's an old

1234
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: lady going on that left a lot of cars. Thought exactly.

1235
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 1: I remember my favorite image of that town, and it's

1236
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: this tiny town in Utah is that I feel like

1237
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: the the dead parked cars outnumbered the people by about

1238
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: ten to one. Like yards of houses will have like

1239
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: twenty cars that are all just decimated in the front yard.

1240
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. It's just like this weird place. There's something

1241
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: about it. You're like, I like this because I don't

1242
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: see anything like this in daily life.

1243
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 5: No, there's it's it's a very interesting place. I just

1244
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 5: did a shoot two days ago out south of Hanksville,

1245
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 5: so I spent three three days there, you know, kind

1246
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 5: of in.

1247
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 3: And out of town. And it's a wild place.

1248
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's it's these ranchers and you know,

1249
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 5: they've got this. You know, the West is ruled by water,

1250
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 5: and they've got the Fremont River and they're starting to

1251
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 5: they're going, all right, we're gonna we're gonna develop our

1252
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 5: alfalfa fields and we're gonna we're gonna get our water

1253
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 5: before the Colorado and everything else takes it.

1254
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So before you started getting into photography and everything,

1255
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: you were a professional scheme mountaineer for the North Face.

1256
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 3: Right, I was. Yeah, I was very fortunate that.

1257
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 5: Very early on, I think I was sixteen or seventeen,

1258
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 5: I was picked up by the North Face and Conrad

1259
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 5: Anchor was my team manager, and he introduced me to

1260
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 5: Alex Lowe who lived in Bozeman.

1261
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: Give some context for people who aren't in that world,

1262
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 1: like this is like getting picked up by you know,

1263
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen of that.

1264
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I mean I don't. I don't know that world.

1265
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 5: Uh you know, it's it's uh, it's the it's the

1266
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 5: top of the pile.

1267
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: You know.

1268
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 5: At that time Conrad Anchor is he is, Yeah, he

1269
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 5: is the Michael Jordan of of mountaineering and climbing. And

1270
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 5: Alex low at the time he was very much the

1271
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 5: Scottie Pippen, or it could be vice versa. You know,

1272
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 5: alex Is was just the an incredibly talented mountaineer, rock climber,

1273
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 5: and he happened to live three blocks away from me.

1274
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: What did you learn from those guys?

1275
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 3: Oh? Man, I didn't spend a lot of time I did.

1276
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 5: I actually have only sport climbed with Conrad, but I

1277
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 5: spent quite a bit of time with Alex thanks to Conrad,

1278
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 5: learning rope work in the mountains. And that was the

1279
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 5: you know, because before I could climb stuff, and you know,

1280
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 5: I would get up on top of a peek and

1281
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 5: ski it, and I thought.

1282
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 3: That was that was the thing.

1283
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 5: But Alex really taught me, you know about reading the mountains,

1284
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 5: reading weather. He taught me how to turn back, you know,

1285
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 5: seeing something and going this isn't worth it. On more

1286
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 5: more occasions than not, we'd be down in the highlight

1287
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 5: range and he was like, eh, you know, we're not

1288
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 5: going to ski this, We're going to turn around.

1289
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: You eventually turned around from the sport entirely because you

1290
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: noticed that so many other climbers were dying right.

1291
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 5: Well, it wasn't even so I was focused on on

1292
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 5: the skiing of it. So the climbing part of it

1293
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 5: was just so I could ski something, right, It wasn't

1294
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 5: you know. Alex was very much in Conrad. They were

1295
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 5: the climbers of it, and yet there were there are

1296
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 5: a lot of deaths that happened, a lot of big acts,

1297
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 5: a lot of avalanches, and I just you know, I

1298
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 5: was probably twenty three, twenty four, mid twenties, and I

1299
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 5: didn't want to die.

1300
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: I want to read a Hunter S. Thompson, A blind

1301
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 1: to you that I feel like kind of encapsulates what

1302
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. He said, the edge, there is

1303
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: no honest way to explain it because the only people

1304
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: who really know where it is are the ones who

1305
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: have gone over. How do you react to that?

1306
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's the truth. And I think so

1307
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 5: many people live in this safety bubble because we're so conditioned,

1308
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 5: so advertised to that this is what we're supposed to do,

1309
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 5: this is how we're supposed to live.

1310
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 3: And I've.

1311
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 5: I've done that, you know, from skiing, mountaineering to photography

1312
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 5: to directing, and I've never felt more happy and more free.

1313
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 5: And to me, that that happiness comes from the freedom

1314
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 5: of waking up in the morning and going, oh wow,

1315
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 5: I heard about these petroglyphs north of Kannab. I'm going

1316
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 5: to go figure out what those are. And Michael the

1317
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 5: other day I was on a petroglyph hunt. I go

1318
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 5: to these petroglyphs and as I get out of the

1319
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 5: truck and I'm fixed on these petroglyphs, my eyes are

1320
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 5: on the petroglyphe. An eagle falls out of a nest

1321
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 5: that's fifteen feet above these petroglyphs and flies away, and

1322
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 5: then I hear its little chicks squawking. That's to me,

1323
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 5: that's priceless.

1324
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: And you wouldn't have got that had you done the

1325
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: most efficient thing, right. I think there's a metaphor with

1326
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,240
Speaker 1: so much of what you do that you do not

1327
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 1: take the most efficient routes, whether it's through careers to

1328
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 1: from point A to point b, like what have you?

1329
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: What's the lesson in there for the average person.

1330
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 5: I don't know what the lesson is, But for me,

1331
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 5: I've always chased the aesthetic of it, like what's the

1332
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 5: most beautiful way to get from point A to point B.

1333
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: I feel like when most people travel, there becomes this Okay,

1334
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: we're going to go to Europe and we have our

1335
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 1: perfect itinerary. Do you think people, especially especially Americans, with

1336
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 1: how big and different our country is in all different places,

1337
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: do you think we could do a better job just

1338
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:29,480
Speaker 1: exploring America.

1339
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 5: I think the mistake most people make is they're chasing

1340
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 5: the postcard, They're chasing the Instagram post. They want to

1341
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 5: have the same sunset that they saw from that influencer

1342
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 5: or that person. And I think that's one of the

1343
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 5: magical things about sunsets is, yeah, you know, you're going

1344
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 5: to get a sunset. It could be incredible, it could

1345
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 5: kind of flop on you too.

1346
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 3: But people get caught.

1347
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 5: Up in chasing someone else's experience instead of just letting

1348
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 5: that experience unfold for themselves.

1349
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 3: And if there's anything I've.

1350
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 5: Learned over the years, is as soon as I let

1351
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 5: go of my expectations and comparing my experience to someone

1352
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 5: else's experience, that's where the magic happens. That's where I'm

1353
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 5: open to letting wherever I am at that time just happen.

1354
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 3: And that's the magic, you know, that's the magic of

1355
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:36,680
Speaker 3: it's your own experience.

1356
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 5: Nobody else had that, nobody else saw that sunset from

1357
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:43,879
Speaker 5: that spot, that you were at you know, no one else.

1358
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 3: You know had that epic hike into the.

1359
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 5: Waterfall and got that blister and pushed through it, and

1360
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:56,760
Speaker 5: you know like it. It's yours and that's what makes

1361
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 5: it special.

1362
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 1: If people want to start exploring the areas around like

1363
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 1: where they live, just in the country, where do you

1364
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: tell them to start? You spend so much time on

1365
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: the road, living out of your truck.

1366
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 5: Well, I always think, and I I get this question

1367
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,879
Speaker 5: a lot, and I always look back at myself in Bozeman,

1368
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 5: and it starts off as a little ring, right. It

1369
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 5: goes from, oh, there's a trail down by the river,

1370
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 5: there's that other trail that goes a little farther. You

1371
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 5: don't have to go out for six weeks and not

1372
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 5: see anybody. Yeah, start with your comfort level, you know.

1373
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,680
Speaker 5: I tell my new dads and new moms, I'm like,

1374
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 5: if you want to take your kid camping next year,

1375
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 5: starting the tent in the backyard where if they get scared,

1376
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 5: if it gets windy, if there's noises, you can go inside. Yeah,

1377
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 5: but start start close where it's an easy rip chord

1378
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,560
Speaker 5: to go back to that safe zone.

1379
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 3: And then as your.

1380
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 5: Confidence builds, you get farther and farther away, and the

1381
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 5: farther you get away from other people, for me is

1382
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:20,600
Speaker 5: really where the special things happen, where you're able to

1383
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:24,839
Speaker 5: disconnect and you're able to have that experience that's all yours.

1384
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too, just from a practical travel standpoint,

1385
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: going to the chain restaurant, the chain hotel, you know

1386
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: what you're gonna get. You're like, yeah, it'll be it'll

1387
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: be decent. I kind of know what tooks back. But

1388
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 1: I've found some of the most fun that I've had

1389
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 1: in weird towns. As you go to that like quirky

1390
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: weird hotel and you stay there. Sometimes it's amazing, it's

1391
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: better than the Marriott or whatever. Other times you're like, oh,

1392
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 1: this place is a dump, but still you get a

1393
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 1: story from it. And same with the local restaurant. It's

1394
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 1: like it gives you a better flavor for the environment

1395
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: you're in, the people that live in that place, and

1396
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: it's so much more memorable. Like I'm never going to

1397
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: remember the residence in ex Town, but I do remember

1398
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 1: the Shamrock Motel in Texas on Highway sixty six or

1399
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 1: Route sixty six. I stayed on and it's just like

1400
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,680
Speaker 1: those that just gives you these little memories and experiences

1401
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: that are harder to find if you kind of do

1402
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 1: the known route, if you will.

1403
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 5: And why do they make those hotels the residents in

1404
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 5: even the Four Seasons or the rich Carlton, Why do they.

1405
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 3: Make them that way? Because you know what you're going

1406
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 3: to get.

1407
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 5: You know, it's this optimization of I want to go

1408
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 5: to this place that I know that the towels are

1409
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 5: going to be great, I know the bed's going to

1410
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 5: be great, you know.

1411
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 3: But no, do we want to get bed bugs? Definitely not.

1412
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 3: But do we want to meet some weird lady that's

1413
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:03,320
Speaker 3: got a parrot behind the counter?

1414
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 5: You know?

1415
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 3: Do we do? Yes?

1416
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 5: That person we want, you know, and look, there's nothing

1417
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 5: I appreciate, you know. Sometimes you just want to go someplace,

1418
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 5: and especially with work, you know, sometimes you want to

1419
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 5: know that they're going to have a printer, that they're

1420
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 5: going to be able to take care of you. And

1421
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 5: those are those are the times. Other times it's great

1422
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 5: to have this insane adventure.

1423
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: Final two questions. You're one of the top people in overlanding.

1424
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:41,719
Speaker 1: What's the perfect overlanding vehicle in your mind?

1425
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 5: I don't think there is a perfect overlanding vehicle. I

1426
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 5: think it's whatever you have. I used to think, and

1427
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 5: it evolves with with your needs.

1428
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 3: I used to think it was and as you know,

1429
01:15:58,920 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 3: a wagon.

1430
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 5: If we're talking a wagon, I would say, it's you know,

1431
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 5: the Defender land Cruiser, the Prato, what are they? You

1432
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 5: you have the Lexus that's.

1433
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: The Lexus Prato for sixty G sixty.

1434
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 5: So I think that it's it's all about how you

1435
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 5: travel and that all changes, you know, it's it's what

1436
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 5: you need.

1437
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 3: I am now, you know.

1438
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 5: In my av Bison, and this is the first non

1439
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 5: land rover product I've had in since nineteen ninety five

1440
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 5: ninety six.

1441
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 3: I never thought.

1442
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 5: I never thought I'd be a truck guy, you know.

1443
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 3: It was just it didn't make sense to me.

1444
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 5: After I spent some time in Australia and saw the

1445
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 5: way they built their trucks, the way here's your driving,

1446
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:56,760
Speaker 5: this is all your gear in the back. I don't

1447
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 5: hear anything rattle up front, you know, which is pretty incredible,

1448
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:01,879
Speaker 5: you know, like that's that's a nice.

1449
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 3: Little little thing. I've spent a lot of time on.

1450
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 5: Motorcycles, and for motorcycles, you know, I would say that

1451
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 5: if you can, it's the twelve hundred gs because you

1452
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 5: can go anywhere in the world and rent a twelve

1453
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 5: hundred GS.

1454
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 3: You can go anywhere in the world and you're gonna.

1455
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 5: Five parts for a twelve hundred GS. You know, that

1456
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 5: was the argument, and I guess that could be the

1457
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:34,080
Speaker 5: argument for wherever you go, get whatever you can afford

1458
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:37,439
Speaker 5: to rent and don't get caught up in all the gear. Yeah,

1459
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 5: you know, like I I drove from Lisbon to Marrakesh

1460
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,760
Speaker 5: one time, and I had my camera bag and a

1461
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 5: Duffel bag and that was it.

1462
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 3: I think we maybe had we maybe had.

1463
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 5: The toolkit that comes with the Defender and some jumper cables.

1464
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 5: But people get so caught up in the gear of like, oh,

1465
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:02,439
Speaker 5: I can't do this trip because I don't have a

1466
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 5: rooftop tent.

1467
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 3: Of course you can sleep in the back, you know, like.

1468
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 5: Do the trip with what you have and don't get

1469
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 5: caught up just because some guy's got some one hundred

1470
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:20,759
Speaker 5: thousand dollars billed and he's posting all this stuff on Instagram,

1471
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 5: Like you don't need that totally, you know, because we've

1472
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 5: gotten so far away from what overlanding should be in

1473
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 5: my opinion.

1474
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 3: It's just my opinion.

1475
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 5: But it's not about having the rooftop tent and the

1476
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 5: fridge and all the recovery gear and all the stuff.

1477
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,440
Speaker 5: It's about traveling and meeting people, eating that weird food

1478
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 5: and ending up in the back of some muchacha's house

1479
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 5: killing the chicken that you're going.

1480
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 3: To eat later.

1481
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 5: Awesome, sorry vegetarians, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

1482
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of food, final question, you know your way

1483
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: around a good gas station? What is your go to

1484
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: gas station snack hall.

1485
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 5: I think that there's this this brand of gas station

1486
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 5: out there that has happened called.

1487
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: Maverick Adventures First Stop Baby Adventures.

1488
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 5: I mean, they're advertising's corny, but holy smokes, if if

1489
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 5: there's a Maverick, I will drive out of my way

1490
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:25,600
Speaker 5: to go to it because they're pork chili burritos and

1491
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 5: they're bacon.

1492
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 3: Cheddar egg breakfast burritos are insane. They're really good.

1493
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 1: We got a Maverick fifteen minutes from my house and

1494
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: my wife's just like, would you go get me a

1495
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 1: Maverick breakfast burrito? And they're so good.

1496
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 5: And I've zero affiliation with them, but they have knocked

1497
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 5: the gas station out of the park, like it's just

1498
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 5: it's an incredible my son love. He's like, Dad, can

1499
01:19:58,160 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 5: we go to because they don't have Mavericks in Californ

1500
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 5: yet or they're kind of making their way in, but

1501
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 5: he's like, Dad, can we.

1502
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 3: Go to a Maverick?

1503
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 5: As soon as we cross into Nevada? Can we can

1504
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 5: we go to the Maverick?

1505
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.

1506
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 3: My yeah.

1507
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 1: Barring that, let's pretend I'm not at a Maverick. And

1508
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 1: if I'm met a Maverick, this changed the game. But

1509
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 1: my gas station go to Diet Doctor Pepper, corn nuts.

1510
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: I need to have the risk that I may break

1511
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 1: a tooth at any given moment in my snack. And

1512
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 1: then finally Bubblicious, because when the snack is done, you

1513
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 1: got to get the core nuts out of your teeth

1514
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: and you want to blow some rolls along the way.

1515
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: That is my final. And then I'll also add if

1516
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm going into the mountains for a long time, I

1517
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:42,640
Speaker 1: have a friend, Laura's Earra, who just goes out like

1518
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:45,240
Speaker 1: forever and she lives and literally lives in a cave.

1519
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: She got me on eating those sleeves of doughnuts before Yeah,

1520
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, seven hundred calories in a sleeve. Yeah,

1521
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 1: and they're just unbelievable but probably the most unhealthy thing

1522
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 1: a human could eat. But before you're gonna go out

1523
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 1: in the back country for a while, it's like you

1524
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 1: gotta get those doughnuts and then a bit wider just

1525
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: to have you know, because one is none, two is one.

1526
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 5: Right, Okay, So in that regard, I always do the pretzel,

1527
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 5: the peanut butter filled pretzels, oh so good, watermelon, sour

1528
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 5: patch kids or sour mic and ikes. And then coming

1529
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 5: back from being out in the back country for whatever reason,

1530
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:30,759
Speaker 5: there's always an in and out burger in my life.

1531
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I will go getting it in and out

1532
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 5: and just sit in the cultural viewing. When you're in

1533
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 5: your first in and out after being out for a while,

1534
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 5: you're just like, wow.

1535
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 3: This is it. This is America. It's such a cross section. Yeah,

1536
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:50,679
Speaker 3: it's great, it's amazing.

1537
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, I think we need to start

1538
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 1: talking about this five thousand dollars point A to point

1539
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:58,719
Speaker 1: B trip, and we got to set aside nine dollars

1540
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 1: for in and out for each of us afterwards.

1541
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 3: Afterwards, when we fly back into lax.

1542
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: I love it. Man, all right, Man, well, Senway, thanks

1543
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Man, that was awesome.

1544
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, thank you for having me.

1545
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 1: All right, thanks for checking out the show. Before we go,

1546
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you a quick phrase that I

1547
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 1: have learned in my own adventures that I have found

1548
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 1: have really helped me. So for my books. I will

1549
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 1: travel to the Arctic for a month. I've gone to

1550
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 1: war zones, I've gone into the middle of the Bolivian jungle.

1551
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 1: All of these trips, they always have something that goes

1552
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:35,840
Speaker 1: completely sideways, just things go totally off the rails. Now,

1553
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: when I first started doing my reporting trips into crazy places,

1554
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 1: when things would go bad, I would freak out, go,

1555
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:43,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is not going how I plan.

1556
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: Things are going to be terrible. But then when I

1557
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 1: sat down to write, I realized that all of those

1558
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 1: things going wrong, all of those problems, were actually what

1559
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 1: made the story that much better. When things go perfect

1560
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 1: in your life, you don't leave with a good story.

1561
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 1: And so this has led me to come up with

1562
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 1: a phrase, and it is this no problem, no story.

1563
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,160
Speaker 1: Think about how you can apply that to your own

1564
01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 1: life when a problem comes along. In your life, and

1565
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 1: it inevitably will what story are you going to tell

1566
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 1: yourself about it? And what story are you going to

1567
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 1: tell other people about it? And you will find that

1568
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,240
Speaker 1: sometimes those problems and we oftentimes have to seek them

1569
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: out in modern life because modern life is so problem free.

1570
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,280
Speaker 1: That is what makes life interesting and worth living and

1571
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: telling other people about. So thanks to Sinway and Jay

1572
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:32,719
Speaker 1: for coming on the show. New episodes are dropping twice

1573
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 1: a week. Please keep an eye out for more. We're

1574
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 1: always open to your questions for our Ask Michael Anything section,

1575
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 1: drop them in the comments or send us an email

1576
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 1: at media at twopct dot com. Do not forget to

1577
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 1: hit subscribe. The overlords tell me that is very important

1578
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 1: and we would appreciate that as always have fun, don't

1579
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 1: die and get out and find some adventure