WEBVTT - Case Study Pt 2; How Do You Plead 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 If you will place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.920 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.920 and I who solemnly swear and the haven titled action 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.160 find the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.200 it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:22.840 We all took the same oth of office. We're all 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.480 bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.480 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.640 to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:55.120 this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I think 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.440 it took like two years at least over a year 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.840 to do what they called it, and I hung onto 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.560 a lot of hope before that day happened, because I 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:09.520 thought there's no way, there's just no way. That I 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.200 got the call and I had been indicted, and that 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:19.600 was that was crushing, because like there is an element 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.520 of like feeling of being judged for something you know 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:28.160 that you didn't do, and You're utterly defenseless to the accusation, 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.280 like something could fall out of the sky and then 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.600 just change your life forever. You're really powerless and you 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.120 don't know what's going on, and they've got all the cards. 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.880 Welcome back to part two of our case study series. 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.480 This is a continuation of last week's episode, where we 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.920 looked at the horrific night that changed one of Phil's 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.559 clients lives forever. Phil was brought on as the defense 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.880 attorney for a woman who called one after her husband 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.280 was shot. She was immediately arrested. Today we're going to 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.520 look at the charges filed by the d A's office 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.560 and the impossible decision of whether she should plead not 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.679 guilty or if the risks of going to trial are 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.079 too great. We went to the first appearance of court. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.959 You know, a lot of family was in the courtroom. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.200 My father was in the courtroom. These guys were not there. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.040 And the police officer get up there, and then they 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.680 had my friend get up here, who basically said that 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:29.440 she would be my guardian. I was on house arrest 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.920 there for I can't I can't remember a while. And 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:35.760 then my friend who's also was a friend of my 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.720 mom's who became a close friend of mine. She actually 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:45.280 put her house up for my bond. Thankfully she's a 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.360 really nice husband, because I don't even think she asked 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:53.680 her husband. I think she's just a house I was 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.800 not nice to be around from what I lost, like 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.320 fifty pounds in two months. I didn't get out of bed, 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.320 I and shower. I just kind of like lay there 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:10.400 and like, it's not easy to to be around. Had 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.640 the ankle wannitor on, which I still feel it. I 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.200 think it's been off for like six years. I can't 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.639 even remember, and sometimes I'll still feel like a buzz 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.680 on my ankle. It's like a ghost house arrest ankle. Yeah, 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.280 and it would buzz if I got like the battery 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.000 would get low, and it had a really crappy battery, 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.280 so it would go off all the time. Phil's clients 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.120 spent most of this legal process on house arrest. There 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.080 were limited places she could go, unlimited times she could 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.760 leave the house. But when I was talking with Caitlin, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.240 Phil's former paralegal, she brought up a whole another aspect 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.160 of house arrest that I hadn't thought about. I remember 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.760 how expensive it was if the state sentences you to 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.360 house arrest. You are now responsible for the monthly monitoring fees, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.960 if I remember correctly. They even tell you which company 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:02.720 to go with, but you have to pay for it, 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.320 and that can be pricey, especially for someone who has 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.320 only let out certain times of the day to work 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.720 and raising four children, you know now as a single mother. 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.680 I remember that there was a big deal. It was 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:20.640 very costly. She was out on bond the entire time. 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.120 Which that seems so clear to me that there's no 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.880 threat of danger. We're letting this woman walk freely for 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:32.360 four years. Why are we even charging her. She's a 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:36.520 productive member of society. She is sweet, she is caring. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.720 She was loving her kids. Her children, who this was 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.719 their father and it was terrible that they were brought 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.680 into it at all, were in complete support of her. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.400 I mean, she had the support of everyone who knew 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.440 about it. I say still, what surprised me the most 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.120 about it was that we were even going forward with it. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.560 It also surprised me that it took four It was 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:06.000 a very lengthy process. So when you took on the case, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:12.039 what were your first priorities? The kids? That was a 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.280 big thing for her and for us and for the grandparents. 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.600 These were children who had lost their father and the 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.800 mother was in jail, and it was just a matter 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:24.640 of time, we felt before the state was going to 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.480 be coming to take them away and maybe put them 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.280 in foster care, do something with them that you know, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.240 their mother didn't want. So we needed to get them 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.599 placed with loving family members. And in this particular case, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.160 she's of course presumed innocent and the father's deceased. Even 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.880 though she's in jail, she is still the parent and 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.760 her wishes kind of control legally and practically. But in 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.560 this case, the family home being a crime scene and 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.800 she wasn't able to go back there, we needed to 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:57.919 do something with the kids. So we had to figure 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.840 out how the hell to do a guardianship. I've never 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.159 done one, but we figured it out, and you know, 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.960 we had to get an emergency guardianship in place. Grandparents normally, 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.520 you know, for visitation type situations, they can't go and 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.479 roll the kids in school. They need a judge saying, look, 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.400 for the time being and for the foreseeable future, you 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.760 have the legal authority to act in lieu of a parent. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.280 And so that's what the guardianship was about. So that 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.480 was a very pressing matter for everybody. With the guardianship 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.160 in place, Phil's client's children moved from Georgia to Cape 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.839 Cod in Massachusetts to stay with their grandparents. Phil's client 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.640 was able to visit every so often, but there were 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.479 a lot of roadblocks. And then we had a court 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.800 appearance where they were gonna let me go to Massachusetts 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:43.880 to visit the kids, and at the same time, my 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.239 other friend they swapped custody of me, and for whatever reason, 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.200 she wanted me to move in with her, and I did. 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.000 And you know, she was a great influence on me 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.680 because she made me live. You know, she was the 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.680 one that pushed me to get up every day, and 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.039 you know, she really like momed me. She pulled me 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.120 out and shook the fog out of me and meet 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.960 me live. They just kept dragging it on and on 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.600 and on, and it was literally like, oh, we're not ready, 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.720 we need this. How long will it take you to 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.640 get this? Well, we should be ready by February February 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.520 and roll around, Well, we can't do this because of 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.480 this and so and so is out of town or 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.120 just always something. And I felt like Phil and I 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.800 were mostly ready because I mean, it was what it 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.440 was like, I can't make more out of what happened. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.440 This is what happened, and that's kind of it. And 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:45.040 I felt like we weren't procrastinating, they were procrastinating. We 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.280 kept going to court and even asking if I could 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.960 go to Massachusetts to be with them, because it wasn't 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.360 fair to bring them home because they kept saying next month, 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.960 next spring, by February, by April. They kept kind of 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.600 hanging it over us and prolonging it. That wasn't fair 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.880 to them. So we asked repeatedly if I could go 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.160 up there, and they said no. They would let me 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.240 go up there, They let me go for visits, but 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.760 I couldn't continue my time up there. I think that 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.520 was like four years of just constantly dragging it out, 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.400 and they were getting older and older, and I was 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.160 missing everything. You know, my dad and I couldn't afford 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.240 to send me up there every week to go and 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.960 see them as much as we want to. You know, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.920 that's like and that's an expense. I mean, I'm a 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.440 single mob right now. I worked two jobs. There's no 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.680 way I could afford to fly myself to Massachusetts every month. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.600 There's no way and so I missed a lot and 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.280 they missed a lot. Have you even able to have 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:56.040 a funeral? I mean there was a funeral, but not 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.920 for everyone. That's Phil's clients do her My oldest daughter 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.199 has told me it was for a funeral for someone 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.439 she didn't even know. From what she told me, there 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:12.040 was like music that I never want to listen to. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.360 She said that it was like really strange because she 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.480 didn't know who the funeral was for, because it wasn't 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.880 for her father. And I think that's because I don't 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:30.880 think people knew him quite the way that his wife 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.840 and his children knew. But I think that's absolutely true. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.319 But I don't know what it was like. I wasn't 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:54.400 I wasn't there. I was in jail. Her daughter came 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.760 to the interviews, and she was the child who woke 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.760 up that night the night her father was shot. She 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.240 was eleven when her father died and had to start 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.679 a new life in Massachusetts. While her mother was on 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.960 house arress, we flew up to Massachusetts and it was 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.200 kind of like, I mean, I didn't really understand for 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.720 a while why we were up there. I remember not 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.800 sleeping much. We didn't know how long we were going 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.280 to be there. We didn't know why really we were there. 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.120 Nobody wanted to talk about it or I don't know 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.200 if we were able or what. And I mean it 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.920 was nice, like I love Massachusetts. I was like Cape 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.400 cod like it was beautiful. I missed my mom. I 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.160 didn't know what she was going through, and I mean 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.080 I didn't given time, I didn't even know where she was. 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.160 I was grateful to not have to deal with people 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.480 wondering what happened, wanting to talk about it, or worrying 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.520 about me or anything. I just kind of went and 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:57.120 pretended like nothing happened, which was probably unhealthy, but it 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:02.559 was I don't know safe. Coming back was really weird. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.960 I actually ran into not that long ago, um, a 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.720 girl I used to play with when I was little. 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.080 Her family came into the the store I work in, 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.760 and it was just so weird because I recognized them immediately, 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.360 they recognized me, and they were so nice. It was like, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.720 how are you? How is your family hugging me? So 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.520 just it was really pleasant night. I was a little 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.839 afraid of what they would say to me, you know, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.120 because I'm like, oh boy, here we go. I'm at work. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.480 What's bombard, What's what do you got to say? Let's 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:43.719 do it? But it was it was surprisingly really comfortable. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.720 And sometimes it's not just it was I was a 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.920 different human being before and after, like she was saying, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:56.280 you know, and it's uncomfortable being pulled back into that 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:03.400 persona and having to like, I don't know, time travel. 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.720 It's not even reliving it because I didn't, you know, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.760 I didn't go through what she went through. We really 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:15.200 tried my dad. It was amazing and really getting them 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.760 help and and not further traumatizing them, which was the 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:24.240 main reason I wanted them to go with him to Massachusetts, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.319 because I did not want them to be repeatedly traumatized 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:34.719 after they had already suffered a tremendous loss. And thankfully 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.600 I think I think, you know, probably as an older 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.520 guy and as a parent, the way I do. But 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.160 you know, he gave you guys a safe place, and 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.840 he took care of you, and he got you the 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.920 help that you needed, and they got to make friends 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.800 and they and they got to be kids, which is 0:12:50.800 --> 0:13:00.240 a huge gift after what we went through was a 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.679 laundry list of charges. Did they offered the plea At first, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.760 I didn't want the plea. I was like, no, I'm 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.960 not taking a plea. I was furious. I think that 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:14.319 it was voluntary manslaughter and that he told me about 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:18.200 the Alfred plea. You may remember from earlier in the season, 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.839 and Alfred plea is a guilty plea that defendants can 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.000 enter in order to take a deal offered by prosecutors 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.400 that still maintains their innocence. It's named after the Supreme 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:34.360 Court case North Carolina v. Alfred. By entering an Alfred plea, 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.520 the defendant is acknowledging that the risk of a jury 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.000 trial is too high. They can accept the terms of 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:45.280 a deal without admitting guilt to a crime. I can 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.120 appreciate it, but I don't know, like in reality, in 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.040 real life terms, does it make a difference. It doesn't 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.880 really make a difference. It does give me some some 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.720 piece of mind that there is some element of like, okay, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.560 take it, but you're wrong. There's at least something there. 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.080 Having your voice and having your ability to fight for 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.400 your rights and fight to prove yourself having that taken 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.160 from you and literally held hostage by a system is 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:24.280 really frustrating because I felt like they had taken this 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.600 horrible tragedy of my life, one of the greatest heart 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.520 breaks in my life, and they hijacked it and they 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:37.480 made it into something that I can't even describe, you know, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.920 And then it was always hanging over you, like what's 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.560 going to happen to them if it goes badly. We 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.240 asked the kids what they wanted me to do, and 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.360 they said, they want me to take a plea. I 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.520 understood that it was better to go in front of 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.720 somebody who understood the judicial system that it was to 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:01.160 go in front of people who have no idea what 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.040 I sadly had to learn over that period of time 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:11.320 about the judicial system. And I took the plea, and 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.760 for the rest of my life, I'm filling. I'm sorry. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:25.480 That's why I were by sweatshot. At the end of 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.160 this process, the prosecutor came to us with an offer, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:31.640 and I don't remember if it was the first offer, 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.400 that was certainly the last, but basically it boiled down 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.600 to having to make a choice. What they did is 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:42.880 they gave us some options basically that we could pick from. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.120 But bottom line is I think they realized that they 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.760 had problems with proving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Potentially 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.040 they agreed that they would reduce the charge from murder 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.520 to voluntary manslaughter. Doesn't sound like much of a reduction, 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.600 but in Georgia, murder carries a man to hoary life 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.960 sentence and it could be without parole, the judge says. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.400 So bandslaughter, on the other hand, carries a maximum of 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.880 twenty years, and you know, without a record, you're pretty 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.400 much eligible for parole after about twelve fourteen years. That's 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.120 still a hell of a long time, but at least 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.320 there's potentially a light at the end of the tunnel 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.600 for you. The option that she had was to plead 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.760 to the reduced charge of voluntary manslaughter and she would 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.160 receive a sentence of fifteen years with eight to be 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.680 served in prison. In that scenario, she would be eligible 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:39.360 for parole basically immediately. But if we took that scenario, 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.240 there would be no opportunity to ask the judge to 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.040 even consider a lesser sentence. So this was option number 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.960 one for her. Option number two is pleaded that reduced 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:54.480 charge of voluntary manslaughter. In this option, the prosecutor would 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.000 recommend a sentence to the judge of twenty years with 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.840 ten to serve, and under that scenario, the judge would 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:06.720 be bound to not exceed their recommendation and he could 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:11.400 go under it. That's what we call a partially negotiated 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.000 plea with a cap. In other words, they were gonna 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.920 cap her potential exposure at ten years and we could 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:21.440 ask for something less. Those are too crappy options to 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.240 choose from. But under option two we would at least 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:30.080 have the opportunity to present mitigating evidence, things that we 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.520 thought wade in favor of a lighter sentence. But also, 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.320 under the rules of evidence and Georgia that had recently changed, 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.520 lots of evidence is admissible at a sentencing hearing that 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.720 had not really been so admissible before, things like hearsay. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.120 Our strategy was, look, if we take option too, yeah, 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.040 you might get two more years in prison, but we 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.399 also can maybe get two, three or four years less. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.080 You know, I never thought she was gonna get none. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.600 I thought there was definitely some prison in her future. 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.399 But I was hoping to get something less than eight 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:05.480 because eight was what we had. Is the bird in 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.680 the hand option, so to speak. So she had to 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.760 choose between two pretty bad options that were pretty risky. 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.639 Of course, the judge didn't have to take either one 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.000 of those. He could have said, no, I'm not going 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:19.960 to accept either one album, then you're gonna stand trial 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.639 for murder. We always had that is a potential outcome 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.960 of this too. We also had the mechanism at our disposal. 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.679 There's something called a an Alfred plea. If you believe 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.080 that a jury might very well find you guilty, notwithstanding 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.120 you know your innocence, you can you can take advantage 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.480 of the special kind of plea. The judge can pass 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.560 judgment and sentence on you without an admission of guilt. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.959 Otherwise you've got to actually say you're guilty. We couldn't 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:48.840 do that with her. I couldn't put her under oath 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.480 and say she's guilty when she's not, and what I 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.520 don't think she is. If you'd like more information about Alfred, 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.040 please mandatory minimum sentencing and the risks of taking a 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.359 case to trial take a look at some of our 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.919 previous episodes. This season. We covered these topics more in 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.680 depth in some earlier episodes. It was more than one conversation. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.320 It was a process, and it involved not only she 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.320 and I, but it involves dozens of conversations with her family, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.800 and I'm sure they consulted, maybe at least the older kids. 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.239 I even wrote it all out and had her sign it, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.280 basically saying, look, these are your options. This thing can 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.760 all go south and you could still wind up standing trial, 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:31.399 and if you're convicted, you can still wind up in 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.119 prison forever. You know. I had to basically sign a 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.400 document that says I understand and acknowledge that the decision 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.760 is mine and mine alone and cannot be made my 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.639 my attorney or any family member or friend. I needed 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.320 to put that in writing so that she's kind of 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.400 like informed consent. If you go to have minor surgery, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.359 that doctors is gonna have you sign something, say you 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.400 know the risks, and you're doing it anyway. So that's 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:55.920 what I had to have her do in this case. 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.360 It's very rare that I do that, but we did 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.000 it in this case because well or not, things went 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.760 our way. At least I would know that not only 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.600 had I told her everything verbally, I had given it 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.760 to her in writing so that she could take it 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.959 home and study it and think about it. I did 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.160 not want her to make a fast decision. I wanted 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.480 her to make an informed decision, and I wanted her 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.520 to have as much time as she needed. Whether or 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.560 not to go to trial. As always, the client's call, 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.399 and it should be made after consulting with counsel and 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:31.520 anybody else that's relevant in their life, like spouses, kids, moms, dad's, brother, sisters, 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.840 what have you. It's a personal choice, and you know, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.760 we we weigh all the factors. We weigh the likelihood 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:43.240 of conviction, we weigh the chances of maybe an acquittal. 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:45.320 Of course, you never can You never know what the 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.960 hell of jury is gonna do. Juries are so unpredictable. 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:51.520 You have to make the best decision that you can. 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.960 I will say this about this case. I felt that 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.040 if we went to trial, we stood a decent chance 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.720 of getting a jury to acquit her own murder, but 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.160 maybe find her guilty of manslaughter. Anyway, if for example, 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.240 they thought, well, she killed him in the heat of passion. Um, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.399 this was like an argument, and she didn't really have 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.000 time to think about it. She just got really piste 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.000 off and pull the trigger. And if that had happened, 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.200 then the judge would have had to make a sentencing determination, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.639 and in that scenario he could have given her no 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.040 jail time or twenty. But if a jury finds you 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.159 guilty of manslaughter, the judge is gonna give you twenty. 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.479 That's just kind of a given. We knew that was 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.080 what was going to happen, which helped us decide to 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:36.879 enter a plea to manslaughter because we felt that there 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:38.879 was a decent likelihood that she would at least be 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.439 found guilty of manslaughter. I don't necessarily trust the juries 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:44.800 to always get it right. We felt that our best 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.000 chance was to let the judge see this whole case 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.879 for what it really was, which was I think a 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.240 house of cards. I trusted the judge to do the 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.320 right thing, and in hindsight, thank god I'm right, because 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.320 if my plan had on south, I would have really 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:03.440 looked like It's kind of like the football coach who 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.199 decided to go for it on fourth down. If you 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.760 make it, you look like a hero, and if you don't, 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.159 you're the goat. This was fourth and long for us, 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:17.760 and we we decided to go for it. We decided 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:19.560 that we would take advantage of the new rules of 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:21.520 evidence and we would just try to have a little 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:25.240 miniature trial in the context of a sentencing hearing. So 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:30.560 I was able to bring in a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Norman, 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.840 who did a really good job, I think, getting inside 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.480 her head and trying to show whether or not she 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.160 had any intention to kill anybody, whether or not she 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:45.119 was suffering as we suspected from PTSD, or how accurate 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.600 could she be expected to be in relating to a 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:52.639 nine one one operator what happened when she's got her 0:22:52.680 --> 0:23:13.800 husband bleeding out on the floor at her feet. When 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.840 his client decided to take the plea, Phil started looking 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.480 into more evidence to convince the judge to give his 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.879 client a lighter sentence. As he mentioned, one piece of 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.920 that evidence was a psychiatric evaluation by Dr Matthew Norman. 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.639 He spoke with Phil about his experience with and memory 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:35.240 of this case. I am Matthew Norman and I am 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:41.320 a general and forensic psychiatrist in Atlanta, Georgia. That case, 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:46.359 my recollection was you had contacted me and there was 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:51.200 some material to review, which included a nine one one 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.520 audio tape. It was a little different for me. It 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:58.240 was not a traditional competency to stand trial or criminal 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:02.560 responsibility that is insane any case. It was much more 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.280 looking at a set of information you know, the discovery 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.520 in the case, the documents in the case, what the 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:13.359 police were saying, what the individual who wind up getting 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.119 arrested was saying, and also listening to the nine one 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:20.040 one calls and trying to see one is there something 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:25.320