1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: and I who solemnly swear and the haven titled action 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: find the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense, 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: We all took the same oth of office. We're all 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I think 14 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: it took like two years at least over a year 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: to do what they called it, and I hung onto 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: a lot of hope before that day happened, because I 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: thought there's no way, there's just no way. That I 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: got the call and I had been indicted, and that 19 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: was that was crushing, because like there is an element 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: of like feeling of being judged for something you know 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: that you didn't do, and You're utterly defenseless to the accusation, 22 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: like something could fall out of the sky and then 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: just change your life forever. You're really powerless and you 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on, and they've got all the cards. 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of our case study series. 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: This is a continuation of last week's episode, where we 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: looked at the horrific night that changed one of Phil's 28 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: clients lives forever. Phil was brought on as the defense 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: attorney for a woman who called one after her husband 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: was shot. She was immediately arrested. Today we're going to 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: look at the charges filed by the d A's office 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: and the impossible decision of whether she should plead not 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: guilty or if the risks of going to trial are 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: too great. We went to the first appearance of court. 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of family was in the courtroom. 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: My father was in the courtroom. These guys were not there. 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: And the police officer get up there, and then they 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: had my friend get up here, who basically said that 39 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: she would be my guardian. I was on house arrest 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: there for I can't I can't remember a while. And 41 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: then my friend who's also was a friend of my 42 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: mom's who became a close friend of mine. She actually 43 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: put her house up for my bond. Thankfully she's a 44 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: really nice husband, because I don't even think she asked 45 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: her husband. I think she's just a house I was 46 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: not nice to be around from what I lost, like 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: fifty pounds in two months. I didn't get out of bed, 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: I and shower. I just kind of like lay there 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: and like, it's not easy to to be around. Had 50 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: the ankle wannitor on, which I still feel it. I 51 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: think it's been off for like six years. I can't 52 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: even remember, and sometimes I'll still feel like a buzz 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: on my ankle. It's like a ghost house arrest ankle. Yeah, 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: and it would buzz if I got like the battery 55 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: would get low, and it had a really crappy battery, 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: so it would go off all the time. Phil's clients 57 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: spent most of this legal process on house arrest. There 58 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: were limited places she could go, unlimited times she could 59 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: leave the house. But when I was talking with Caitlin, 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: Phil's former paralegal, she brought up a whole another aspect 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: of house arrest that I hadn't thought about. I remember 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: how expensive it was if the state sentences you to 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: house arrest. You are now responsible for the monthly monitoring fees, 64 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. They even tell you which company 65 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: to go with, but you have to pay for it, 66 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: and that can be pricey, especially for someone who has 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: only let out certain times of the day to work 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: and raising four children, you know now as a single mother. 69 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: I remember that there was a big deal. It was 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: very costly. She was out on bond the entire time. 71 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: Which that seems so clear to me that there's no 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: threat of danger. We're letting this woman walk freely for 73 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: four years. Why are we even charging her. She's a 74 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: productive member of society. She is sweet, she is caring. 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: She was loving her kids. Her children, who this was 76 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: their father and it was terrible that they were brought 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: into it at all, were in complete support of her. 78 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: I mean, she had the support of everyone who knew 79 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: about it. I say still, what surprised me the most 80 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: about it was that we were even going forward with it. 81 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: It also surprised me that it took four It was 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: a very lengthy process. So when you took on the case, 83 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: what were your first priorities? The kids? That was a 84 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: big thing for her and for us and for the grandparents. 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: These were children who had lost their father and the 86 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: mother was in jail, and it was just a matter 87 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: of time, we felt before the state was going to 88 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: be coming to take them away and maybe put them 89 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: in foster care, do something with them that you know, 90 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: their mother didn't want. So we needed to get them 91 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: placed with loving family members. And in this particular case, 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: she's of course presumed innocent and the father's deceased. Even 93 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: though she's in jail, she is still the parent and 94 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: her wishes kind of control legally and practically. But in 95 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: this case, the family home being a crime scene and 96 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: she wasn't able to go back there, we needed to 97 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: do something with the kids. So we had to figure 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: out how the hell to do a guardianship. I've never 99 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: done one, but we figured it out, and you know, 100 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: we had to get an emergency guardianship in place. Grandparents normally, 101 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, for visitation type situations, they can't go and 102 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: roll the kids in school. They need a judge saying, look, 103 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: for the time being and for the foreseeable future, you 104 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: have the legal authority to act in lieu of a parent. 105 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: And so that's what the guardianship was about. So that 106 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: was a very pressing matter for everybody. With the guardianship 107 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: in place, Phil's client's children moved from Georgia to Cape 108 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: Cod in Massachusetts to stay with their grandparents. Phil's client 109 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: was able to visit every so often, but there were 110 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: a lot of roadblocks. And then we had a court 111 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: appearance where they were gonna let me go to Massachusetts 112 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: to visit the kids, and at the same time, my 113 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 1: other friend they swapped custody of me, and for whatever reason, 114 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: she wanted me to move in with her, and I did. 115 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: And you know, she was a great influence on me 116 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: because she made me live. You know, she was the 117 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: one that pushed me to get up every day, and 118 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: you know, she really like momed me. She pulled me 119 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: out and shook the fog out of me and meet 120 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: me live. They just kept dragging it on and on 121 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: and on, and it was literally like, oh, we're not ready, 122 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: we need this. How long will it take you to 123 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: get this? Well, we should be ready by February February 124 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: and roll around, Well, we can't do this because of 125 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: this and so and so is out of town or 126 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: just always something. And I felt like Phil and I 127 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: were mostly ready because I mean, it was what it 128 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: was like, I can't make more out of what happened. 129 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: This is what happened, and that's kind of it. And 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: I felt like we weren't procrastinating, they were procrastinating. We 131 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: kept going to court and even asking if I could 132 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: go to Massachusetts to be with them, because it wasn't 133 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: fair to bring them home because they kept saying next month, 134 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: next spring, by February, by April. They kept kind of 135 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: hanging it over us and prolonging it. That wasn't fair 136 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: to them. So we asked repeatedly if I could go 137 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: up there, and they said no. They would let me 138 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: go up there, They let me go for visits, but 139 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't continue my time up there. I think that 140 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: was like four years of just constantly dragging it out, 141 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: and they were getting older and older, and I was 142 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: missing everything. You know, my dad and I couldn't afford 143 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: to send me up there every week to go and 144 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: see them as much as we want to. You know, 145 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: that's like and that's an expense. I mean, I'm a 146 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: single mob right now. I worked two jobs. There's no 147 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: way I could afford to fly myself to Massachusetts every month. 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: There's no way and so I missed a lot and 149 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: they missed a lot. Have you even able to have 150 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: a funeral? I mean there was a funeral, but not 151 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: for everyone. That's Phil's clients do her My oldest daughter 152 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: has told me it was for a funeral for someone 153 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: she didn't even know. From what she told me, there 154 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: was like music that I never want to listen to. 155 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: She said that it was like really strange because she 156 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: didn't know who the funeral was for, because it wasn't 157 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: for her father. And I think that's because I don't 158 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: think people knew him quite the way that his wife 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: and his children knew. But I think that's absolutely true. 160 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: But I don't know what it was like. I wasn't 161 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't there. I was in jail. Her daughter came 162 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: to the interviews, and she was the child who woke 163 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: up that night the night her father was shot. She 164 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: was eleven when her father died and had to start 165 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: a new life in Massachusetts. While her mother was on 166 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: house arress, we flew up to Massachusetts and it was 167 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of like, I mean, I didn't really understand for 168 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: a while why we were up there. I remember not 169 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: sleeping much. We didn't know how long we were going 170 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: to be there. We didn't know why really we were there. 171 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to talk about it or I don't know 172 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: if we were able or what. And I mean it 173 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: was nice, like I love Massachusetts. I was like Cape 174 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: cod like it was beautiful. I missed my mom. I 175 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: didn't know what she was going through, and I mean 176 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: I didn't given time, I didn't even know where she was. 177 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: I was grateful to not have to deal with people 178 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: wondering what happened, wanting to talk about it, or worrying 179 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: about me or anything. I just kind of went and 180 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: pretended like nothing happened, which was probably unhealthy, but it 181 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: was I don't know safe. Coming back was really weird. 182 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: I actually ran into not that long ago, um, a 183 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: girl I used to play with when I was little. 184 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: Her family came into the the store I work in, 185 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: and it was just so weird because I recognized them immediately, 186 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: they recognized me, and they were so nice. It was like, 187 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: how are you? How is your family hugging me? So 188 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: just it was really pleasant night. I was a little 189 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: afraid of what they would say to me, you know, 190 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh boy, here we go. I'm at work. 191 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: What's bombard, What's what do you got to say? Let's 192 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: do it? But it was it was surprisingly really comfortable. 193 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not just it was I was a 194 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: different human being before and after, like she was saying, 195 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, and it's uncomfortable being pulled back into that 196 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: persona and having to like, I don't know, time travel. 197 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: It's not even reliving it because I didn't, you know, 198 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: I didn't go through what she went through. We really 199 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: tried my dad. It was amazing and really getting them 200 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: help and and not further traumatizing them, which was the 201 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: main reason I wanted them to go with him to Massachusetts, 202 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: because I did not want them to be repeatedly traumatized 203 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: after they had already suffered a tremendous loss. And thankfully 204 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: I think I think, you know, probably as an older 205 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: guy and as a parent, the way I do. But 206 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, he gave you guys a safe place, and 207 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: he took care of you, and he got you the 208 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: help that you needed, and they got to make friends 209 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: and they and they got to be kids, which is 210 00:12:50,800 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: a huge gift after what we went through was a 211 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: laundry list of charges. Did they offered the plea At first, 212 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: I didn't want the plea. I was like, no, I'm 213 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: not taking a plea. I was furious. I think that 214 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: it was voluntary manslaughter and that he told me about 215 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: the Alfred plea. You may remember from earlier in the season, 216 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: and Alfred plea is a guilty plea that defendants can 217 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: enter in order to take a deal offered by prosecutors 218 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: that still maintains their innocence. It's named after the Supreme 219 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: Court case North Carolina v. Alfred. By entering an Alfred plea, 220 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: the defendant is acknowledging that the risk of a jury 221 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: trial is too high. They can accept the terms of 222 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: a deal without admitting guilt to a crime. I can 223 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: appreciate it, but I don't know, like in reality, in 224 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: real life terms, does it make a difference. It doesn't 225 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: really make a difference. It does give me some some 226 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: piece of mind that there is some element of like, okay, 227 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: take it, but you're wrong. There's at least something there. 228 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: Having your voice and having your ability to fight for 229 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: your rights and fight to prove yourself having that taken 230 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: from you and literally held hostage by a system is 231 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: really frustrating because I felt like they had taken this 232 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: horrible tragedy of my life, one of the greatest heart 233 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: breaks in my life, and they hijacked it and they 234 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: made it into something that I can't even describe, you know, 235 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: And then it was always hanging over you, like what's 236 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: going to happen to them if it goes badly. We 237 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: asked the kids what they wanted me to do, and 238 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: they said, they want me to take a plea. I 239 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: understood that it was better to go in front of 240 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: somebody who understood the judicial system that it was to 241 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: go in front of people who have no idea what 242 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: I sadly had to learn over that period of time 243 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: about the judicial system. And I took the plea, and 244 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, I'm filling. I'm sorry. 245 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: That's why I were by sweatshot. At the end of 246 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: this process, the prosecutor came to us with an offer, 247 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: and I don't remember if it was the first offer, 248 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: that was certainly the last, but basically it boiled down 249 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: to having to make a choice. What they did is 250 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: they gave us some options basically that we could pick from. 251 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: But bottom line is I think they realized that they 252 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: had problems with proving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Potentially 253 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: they agreed that they would reduce the charge from murder 254 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: to voluntary manslaughter. Doesn't sound like much of a reduction, 255 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: but in Georgia, murder carries a man to hoary life 256 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: sentence and it could be without parole, the judge says. 257 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: So bandslaughter, on the other hand, carries a maximum of 258 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: twenty years, and you know, without a record, you're pretty 259 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: much eligible for parole after about twelve fourteen years. That's 260 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: still a hell of a long time, but at least 261 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: there's potentially a light at the end of the tunnel 262 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: for you. The option that she had was to plead 263 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: to the reduced charge of voluntary manslaughter and she would 264 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: receive a sentence of fifteen years with eight to be 265 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: served in prison. In that scenario, she would be eligible 266 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: for parole basically immediately. But if we took that scenario, 267 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: there would be no opportunity to ask the judge to 268 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: even consider a lesser sentence. So this was option number 269 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: one for her. Option number two is pleaded that reduced 270 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: charge of voluntary manslaughter. In this option, the prosecutor would 271 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: recommend a sentence to the judge of twenty years with 272 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: ten to serve, and under that scenario, the judge would 273 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: be bound to not exceed their recommendation and he could 274 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: go under it. That's what we call a partially negotiated 275 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: plea with a cap. In other words, they were gonna 276 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: cap her potential exposure at ten years and we could 277 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: ask for something less. Those are too crappy options to 278 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: choose from. But under option two we would at least 279 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to present mitigating evidence, things that we 280 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: thought wade in favor of a lighter sentence. But also, 281 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: under the rules of evidence and Georgia that had recently changed, 282 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: lots of evidence is admissible at a sentencing hearing that 283 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: had not really been so admissible before, things like hearsay. 284 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: Our strategy was, look, if we take option too, yeah, 285 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: you might get two more years in prison, but we 286 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: also can maybe get two, three or four years less. 287 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: You know, I never thought she was gonna get none. 288 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: I thought there was definitely some prison in her future. 289 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: But I was hoping to get something less than eight 290 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: because eight was what we had. Is the bird in 291 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: the hand option, so to speak. So she had to 292 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: choose between two pretty bad options that were pretty risky. 293 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: Of course, the judge didn't have to take either one 294 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: of those. He could have said, no, I'm not going 295 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: to accept either one album, then you're gonna stand trial 296 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: for murder. We always had that is a potential outcome 297 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: of this too. We also had the mechanism at our disposal. 298 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: There's something called a an Alfred plea. If you believe 299 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: that a jury might very well find you guilty, notwithstanding 300 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: you know your innocence, you can you can take advantage 301 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: of the special kind of plea. The judge can pass 302 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: judgment and sentence on you without an admission of guilt. 303 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: Otherwise you've got to actually say you're guilty. We couldn't 304 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: do that with her. I couldn't put her under oath 305 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: and say she's guilty when she's not, and what I 306 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: don't think she is. If you'd like more information about Alfred, 307 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: please mandatory minimum sentencing and the risks of taking a 308 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: case to trial take a look at some of our 309 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: previous episodes. This season. We covered these topics more in 310 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: depth in some earlier episodes. It was more than one conversation. 311 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: It was a process, and it involved not only she 312 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: and I, but it involves dozens of conversations with her family, 313 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: and I'm sure they consulted, maybe at least the older kids. 314 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 1: I even wrote it all out and had her sign it, 315 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: basically saying, look, these are your options. This thing can 316 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: all go south and you could still wind up standing trial, 317 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: and if you're convicted, you can still wind up in 318 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: prison forever. You know. I had to basically sign a 319 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: document that says I understand and acknowledge that the decision 320 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: is mine and mine alone and cannot be made my 321 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: my attorney or any family member or friend. I needed 322 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: to put that in writing so that she's kind of 323 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: like informed consent. If you go to have minor surgery, 324 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: that doctors is gonna have you sign something, say you 325 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: know the risks, and you're doing it anyway. So that's 326 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: what I had to have her do in this case. 327 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: It's very rare that I do that, but we did 328 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: it in this case because well or not, things went 329 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: our way. At least I would know that not only 330 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: had I told her everything verbally, I had given it 331 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: to her in writing so that she could take it 332 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: home and study it and think about it. I did 333 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: not want her to make a fast decision. I wanted 334 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: her to make an informed decision, and I wanted her 335 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: to have as much time as she needed. Whether or 336 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: not to go to trial. As always, the client's call, 337 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: and it should be made after consulting with counsel and 338 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: anybody else that's relevant in their life, like spouses, kids, moms, dad's, brother, sisters, 339 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: what have you. It's a personal choice, and you know, 340 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: we we weigh all the factors. We weigh the likelihood 341 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: of conviction, we weigh the chances of maybe an acquittal. 342 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: Of course, you never can You never know what the 343 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: hell of jury is gonna do. Juries are so unpredictable. 344 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: You have to make the best decision that you can. 345 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: I will say this about this case. I felt that 346 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: if we went to trial, we stood a decent chance 347 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: of getting a jury to acquit her own murder, but 348 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: maybe find her guilty of manslaughter. Anyway, if for example, 349 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: they thought, well, she killed him in the heat of passion. Um, 350 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: this was like an argument, and she didn't really have 351 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: time to think about it. She just got really piste 352 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: off and pull the trigger. And if that had happened, 353 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: then the judge would have had to make a sentencing determination, 354 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: and in that scenario he could have given her no 355 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: jail time or twenty. But if a jury finds you 356 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: guilty of manslaughter, the judge is gonna give you twenty. 357 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: That's just kind of a given. We knew that was 358 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: what was going to happen, which helped us decide to 359 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: enter a plea to manslaughter because we felt that there 360 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: was a decent likelihood that she would at least be 361 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: found guilty of manslaughter. I don't necessarily trust the juries 362 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: to always get it right. We felt that our best 363 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: chance was to let the judge see this whole case 364 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: for what it really was, which was I think a 365 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: house of cards. I trusted the judge to do the 366 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: right thing, and in hindsight, thank god I'm right, because 367 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: if my plan had on south, I would have really 368 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: looked like It's kind of like the football coach who 369 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: decided to go for it on fourth down. If you 370 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: make it, you look like a hero, and if you don't, 371 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: you're the goat. This was fourth and long for us, 372 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: and we we decided to go for it. We decided 373 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: that we would take advantage of the new rules of 374 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: evidence and we would just try to have a little 375 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: miniature trial in the context of a sentencing hearing. So 376 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: I was able to bring in a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Norman, 377 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: who did a really good job, I think, getting inside 378 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: her head and trying to show whether or not she 379 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: had any intention to kill anybody, whether or not she 380 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: was suffering as we suspected from PTSD, or how accurate 381 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: could she be expected to be in relating to a 382 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: nine one one operator what happened when she's got her 383 00:22:52,680 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: husband bleeding out on the floor at her feet. When 384 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: his client decided to take the plea, Phil started looking 385 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: into more evidence to convince the judge to give his 386 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: client a lighter sentence. As he mentioned, one piece of 387 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: that evidence was a psychiatric evaluation by Dr Matthew Norman. 388 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: He spoke with Phil about his experience with and memory 389 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: of this case. I am Matthew Norman and I am 390 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: a general and forensic psychiatrist in Atlanta, Georgia. That case, 391 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: my recollection was you had contacted me and there was 392 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: some material to review, which included a nine one one 393 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: audio tape. It was a little different for me. It 394 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: was not a traditional competency to stand trial or criminal 395 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: responsibility that is insane any case. It was much more 396 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: looking at a set of information you know, the discovery 397 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: in the case, the documents in the case, what the 398 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: police were saying, what the individual who wind up getting 399 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: arrested was saying, and also listening to the nine one 400 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: one calls and trying to see one is there something 401 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: going on psychiatrically or psychologically, they could explain what law 402 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: enforcement was saying. Hey, these inconsistencies, they don't add up 403 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: to us, and therefore we think this person has done 404 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: something that's not right. I did that and notice something 405 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: almost immediately within that, and certainly after sitting down and 406 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: interviewing this individual and doing a psychiatric evaluation, was able 407 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: to arrive at an opinion the inconsistencies were better explained 408 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: through science. It is uncommon for most of us to 409 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: have to be presented with the situation that she had 410 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: to be presented with that evening. It's not something thing 411 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 1: most of us would ever wish, even somebody we may 412 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: not like to have to go through for a law 413 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: enforcement to turn around and go, well, you know what, 414 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: because she made these inconsistent statements, we think she may 415 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: not be telling the truth or it may be a 416 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: different story. And I think what the trouble is is 417 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: when you see those situations on a regular basis, and 418 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,479 Speaker 1: perhaps that's what law enforcement did, is they thought, well, 419 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 1: I might behave differently, but most of us don't have 420 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: to go through what this individual had to go through 421 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: and deal with. And the science behind what the brain 422 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: will do in the midst of a traumatic experience is 423 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: different for different individuals, but certainly also can then cause 424 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: impairments in memory and cognition. The adrenaline gets flowing. With 425 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: that adrenaline, we start thinking in a different way. Then 426 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: our memory starts getting a little warped. And in listening 427 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: to the nine one one call that she made and 428 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: going through the statements and meeting with her, that certainly 429 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: was My opinion is this was something that she'd never 430 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: dealt with before, and most of us don't know how 431 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: we would respond, and I don't think she knew how 432 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: she would respond, even having to call nine one one, 433 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: I mean having to make that decision and being presented 434 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: with the situation that she was presented with, where there's 435 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: I mean blood and gore and and it's not a 436 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: pleasant situation. It is traumatic. Tell something traumatic happens right 437 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: in front of me, It's hard to know how an 438 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: individual would respond. You might remember from the last episode 439 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: that Phil also enlisted the expertise of a new medical 440 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: examiner from Kentucky when he thought the assigned examiner's findings 441 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: were suspect. Normally it is extremely expensive to fly on 442 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: experts from out of state and have them testify on 443 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: the stand. But there are different rules for sentencing hearings 444 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: than there are for a jury trial. So we were 445 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: able to bring in some live witnesses and get into 446 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: some of the underlying facts of the case. But we 447 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: also were able to get in some hearsay. I could 448 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: not have to spend the money in front, but her 449 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: parents didn't have the money. Her family didn't have it 450 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: to bring the medical examiner from Kentucky, so I was 451 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: able to use his very detailed report. So the judge 452 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: was able to consider a mixture of live evidence and 453 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: some some documents, some photographs to try to convince the 454 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: judge that prison was not the place for her. The 455 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: judge begged me almost not to do this. I don't 456 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: think he wanted to have this type of hearing. He 457 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: basically said, you know, Ms Hollway, Look, if he thinks 458 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: she's innocent, you need to have a trial. This is 459 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: what we have trials for now. The judge didn't know 460 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: what all we knew, and he didn't understand the case 461 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: as intricately and as personally as as we did. I 462 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: just think that he would have rather not have to 463 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: make the decision. But in retrospect, if I had to guess, 464 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: I would think the judge is glad we did it 465 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: the way we did. She didn't want to take the 466 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: chance of being found guilty of murder and spending the 467 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: rest of her life locked up away from her kids. 468 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: That's a mandatory sentence. The judge would have had no 469 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: always but to give her life, and even if she 470 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: were eligible for parole, it would be thirty something years 471 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: before she were eligible for parole. She wanted to see 472 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: her kids. This was all about her kids. This was 473 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: a heart wrenching, tearful decision that she made. She did 474 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: it for her kids, to essentially plead to manslaughter when 475 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: she knows she's innocent. She did it for her kids. 476 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: This is Phil's wife, Natalie. I think it's helpful for 477 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: me to know a little bit about what's going on, 478 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: but I also think it's better for him to take 479 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: a break from it, the business that he's in. It 480 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: seems to be very heavy on his heart, and so 481 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: I think for him to have an opportunity to take 482 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: a break from that is difficult, for sure, but good 483 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: for him when it can happen. I actually had met 484 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: her one time via happenstance through some mutual friends. But 485 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: he just came home and told me that this woman 486 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: had been charged with murdering her husband. Didn't he didn't 487 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: think that she had done that, and he felt that 488 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: there were probably a couple of other people that she 489 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: might have spoken with it didn't believe her side of 490 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: the story, but that he truly believed that she hadn't 491 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: done anything incorrectly or wrong or out of alice. Those 492 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: days before our kids were in school, I would go 493 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: there and have lunch, or you know, I would be 494 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: running to my mom's house for something and then stop 495 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: by it to see Phil or just to you know, 496 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: bring something to him to the office that he had forgotten. 497 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: So I know that she was there because there was 498 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: so many limited places that she could be, so I 499 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: know she was there frequently. I think what I remember 500 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: the most about it is over the course of kind 501 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: of start to finish at the trial, you could just 502 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: see on her face and in her being the weight 503 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: of what this was doing to her in her family. 504 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean literally she lost weight. You could see it, 505 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: pushing your shoulders down to the ground. This case was 506 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: such a big part of Phil's life that Natalie came 507 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: to the sentencing hearing to support him and his client. 508 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: I was there with his form paired legal Caitlin and 509 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: our good friend Pat and we sat there from start 510 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: to finish. And I don't go to many I've probably 511 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: been to UM four or five of Phils trials, so 512 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: I kind of always say that I felt I felt 513 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: like I was in church. I don't know how else 514 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: to describe that, Like I felt like I was at church, 515 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I was overcome by a 516 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: power bigger than me. Again, we have been dealing with 517 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: us for a number of years, and you know, what 518 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: happens in the office impacts us in our family life 519 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: as well. And so we were there, her family was there. 520 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: It was very emotionally heavy and draining and exhausting and 521 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 1: long for everybody that took the stand that day. There 522 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: were people on both sides of the aisle that had 523 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: very particular feelings and were very vested in the outcome 524 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: of this case. I just believe that she hadn't done this. 525 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: I believe that there was evidence of her that she 526 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: hadn't done this. And I don't know when the judge, 527 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: When the judge came on the bench, it was like 528 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: I was overcome. I don't know. I mean, we started 529 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: crying and we just I could not get myself together. 530 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: I felt it was just it was the highest emotion 531 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: and then the lowest. You know, you're kind of just 532 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: going up and down. It was. It was unbelievable. M 533 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 534 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne 535 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 536 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 537 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright, 538 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: and Hallie Beat. All original music and sound designed by 539 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in 540 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: the Water by Layup. Show art and design is by 541 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: Trevor Eisler, Editing by Christina Dana, Mixing and mastering by 542 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team 543 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: at I Heart Radio from u t A or In 544 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: rosenbaumd and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from 545 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: the Nord Group, Back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. 546 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: I'd also like to extend a very personal and special 547 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: thanks to all of our contributors and guests who have 548 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,719 Speaker 1: helped to make all of these episodes possible. You can 549 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast 550 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: and follow me your host, Philip Holloway on Twitter at 551 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast 552 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: dot com, and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV 553 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have 554 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: questions or comments, you can email us at Sworn at 555 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV or leave us a voicemail at four zero 556 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: four four one zero zero four f one. As always, 557 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: thanks for listening.