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Speaker 1: Pushkin. In southeastern Brazil, there are two small fishing communities

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Speaker 1: living just forty miles apart. The two villages are similar

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Speaker 1: in lots of ways, but they do have one important difference.

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Speaker 1: One community lives on the ocean, while the other lives

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Speaker 1: by a lake.

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Speaker 2: About a decade ago, a young economist visited the lake

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Speaker 2: settlement and found it a trash strewn and unwelcoming place.

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Speaker 2: But traveling downstream to the sea, he was astounded by

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Speaker 2: the friendly greeting he received in the ocean side community. Intrigued,

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Speaker 2: he decided to properly study how trusting both sets of

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Speaker 2: fishermen were at the start of their careers. They all

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Speaker 2: shared similar outlooks, but those who spent years fishing on

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Speaker 2: the lake grew less trusting and more selfish, and those

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Speaker 2: who spent time working on the ocean grew more generous

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Speaker 2: and trusted. What could explain these different is the sea,

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Speaker 2: air pollution in the lake, the different nutrients in the

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Speaker 2: fish they caught. I'm Jamil Zaki, and in my book

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Speaker 2: Hope for Cynics, The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, I

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Speaker 2: wrote about this research. The reason that one fishing village

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Speaker 2: seemed mean and the other, more kindly, was to do

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Speaker 2: with the type of fishing its inhabitants undertook.

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Speaker 1: Fishing out on the high sea requires boats with heavy equipment,

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Speaker 1: ones that no one can operate alone. Survival on the

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Speaker 1: ocean requires working with others, But fishermen on a calm

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Speaker 1: lake use smaller boats, ones that wind up competing for

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Speaker 1: the best spots. Lake fishing thus becomes a lonelier, more

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Speaker 1: cutthroat way of life.

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Speaker 2: Which fishing village would you want to live in? Most

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Speaker 2: of us would prefer the sea. We find comfort in

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Speaker 2: trusting others, and joy and meaning in connecting with them.

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Speaker 2: But sadly a lot of us think we have to

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Speaker 2: live like the lake fishers, stepping over or on each

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Speaker 2: other to get ahead. This has long been the dominant

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Speaker 2: view of human nature, often wrong on Charles Darwin's theory

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Speaker 2: of natural selection, which argued that life evolves through survival

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Speaker 2: of the fittest. His work was co opted by so

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Speaker 2: called social Darwinists, who said that if the animal kingdom

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Speaker 2: was a never ending war of one against all, human

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Speaker 2: life must be as well. In this mini season of

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Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab, GLORI and I are exploring how to

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Speaker 2: find hope in a cynical world. If modern cynicism was

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Speaker 2: a building, social Darwinism would be a huge part of

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Speaker 2: its foundation. We might want to be nicer and more cooperative,

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Speaker 2: it tells us. But we can't deny our nature and

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Speaker 2: shouldn't believe anyone who tells us otherwise. But is that

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Speaker 2: the only way of looking at human nature? Are we

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Speaker 2: all destined to be stuck in lake towns? It turns

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Speaker 2: out there's more to human nature, and by tapping into it,

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Speaker 2: we can build ocean villages where cooperation rules and happiness rises.

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Speaker 1: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to

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Speaker 1: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What

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Speaker 1: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away

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Speaker 1: from what will really make us happy. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that understanding the science of the mind can point

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Speaker 1: us all back in the right direction. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab with me doctor Laurie.

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Speaker 2: Santos and me doctor Jamil Zaki.

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Speaker 1: Jamie and I wanted to learn more about the origins

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Speaker 1: of cooperation, so we called upon one of my favorite experts,

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Speaker 1: behavioral ecologist and historian of science, Lee Dugatkin.

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Speaker 3: My own dissertation work back in the late nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: was on the evolution of cooperation, and so, you know,

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Speaker 3: as a good grad student, I thought, well, I really

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Speaker 3: need to understand the history of this topic. And you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the names that kept coming up in the

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Speaker 3: literature was Peter Kropotkin.

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Speaker 1: Kropotkin's name got dropped whenever biologists made some claim contradicting

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Speaker 1: the usual notions of selfishness and survival of the fittest,

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Speaker 1: but none of the citations explained who actually was. So

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Speaker 1: Lee headed to the library to research this obscure Russian scientist.

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Speaker 1: He began reading about Kropotkin's life and his work, and

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Speaker 1: he was blown away.

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Speaker 3: He seemed to be one of the most fascinating people

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Speaker 3: I had ever learned about.

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Speaker 1: Lee is now a huge Kropotkin stand. He even wrote

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Speaker 1: a biography entitled The Prince of Evolution Peter Kropotkin's Adventures

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Speaker 1: in Science and Politics. And the word adventures is quite

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Speaker 1: apt because Kropotkin had a very, very eventful life. Peter

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Speaker 1: Kropotkin was born into Russian aristocracy back in eighteen forty two.

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Speaker 1: His ancestors had been princes in generals, and Peter's father

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Speaker 1: served under Czar Nicholas. While many Russians lived in poverty,

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Speaker 1: the Kropotkins were rich. Here's how Peter described their lifestyle

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Speaker 1: and his memoir, Oh wait, Jamille, could you be Kropotkin?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Laurie. No one wants to hear me

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Speaker 2: do a Russian accent, and any accent I try, I

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Speaker 2: swear ends up sounding just like Count Dracula.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, just like read it in an aristocratic sounded way.

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Speaker 2: We had four coachmen to attend, a dozen horses, three

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Speaker 2: cooks for the masters and two more for the servants,

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Speaker 2: a dozen men to wait upon us at dinnertime, and

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Speaker 2: girls innumerable in the maid servants room.

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Speaker 1: Peter's father hoped his son would follow in his footsteps

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Speaker 1: at the royal court, and Krapotkin got his wish. On

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Speaker 1: the eve of the Czar's twenty fifth anniversary celebration, there

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Speaker 1: was a grand ball, and little Peter, aged just eight,

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Speaker 1: attended the ceremony in an eye catching military uniform.

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Speaker 3: And Zar Nicholas, for some reason or another, took a

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Speaker 3: real liking to young Peter Kopotkin, and he told his

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Speaker 3: father that this is the sort of boy that we need,

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Speaker 3: and What that meant was that when Kropotkin got old enough,

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Speaker 3: he would go to this thing called the core of Pages.

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Speaker 3: And these were basically young men who were the cream

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Speaker 3: of the crop, who were being trained to be the

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Speaker 3: leaders of the next generation.

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Speaker 1: But the boys' training in the corps wouldn't lead him

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Speaker 1: to become a loyal czarist. You see, Kropotkin's academic tutor

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Speaker 1: was a covert revolutionary. That tutor snut his curious student

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Speaker 1: underground books on topics like socialism and anarchy. Kropotkin was

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Speaker 1: fascinated by these radical ideas, but he couldn't really share

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Speaker 1: his budding interest in anarchy with those around him, so

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Speaker 1: he took on a different topic of study, something hot

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Speaker 1: and fashionable. Biology. Jamil, can you do Kropotkin again?

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Speaker 2: It was a time of scientific revival, and the current

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Speaker 2: which carried minds towards natural science was irresistible.

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Speaker 3: He reads The Origin of species and starts discussing it

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Speaker 3: with his brother Sasha, and he becomes enamored with Darwin's ideas.

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Speaker 1: Kropotkin was especially enamored with the idea of natural selection.

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Speaker 1: The brutal realities of the natural world meant that organisms

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Speaker 1: faced a struggle for existence. The only way to survive

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Speaker 1: was to fight your way to the top. It was

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Speaker 1: a harsh mantra that scholars assumed held not just for animals,

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Speaker 1: but for humans too.

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Speaker 3: The kind of intense competition that was part of Victorian

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Speaker 3: England was just a human manifestation of natural selection in

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Speaker 3: the wild. If you want to do well, you have

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Speaker 3: to out compete everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Krapakin wanted to witness the Darwinian struggle firsthand, so when

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Speaker 1: he graduated from the Corps, he set his sights on

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Speaker 1: becoming a field biologist.

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Speaker 3: He's the top student, which means that he gets to

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Speaker 3: pick any assignment that he wants, and, to the chagrin

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Speaker 3: of his father and the Tizar and everybody, he asks

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Speaker 3: for a position in Siberia, which no sane person in

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Speaker 3: his position would have done, because this was taking you

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Speaker 3: as far away from possible of the seed of power.

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Speaker 1: Siberia was pretty much the opposite of the cushy core

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Speaker 1: experience Peter was used to. But the young scholar had

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Speaker 1: his reasons for the odd choice.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to be as far away from the Czar

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Speaker 3: as he could, and there were also a lot of

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Speaker 3: other anarchists that either were in Siberia or who had

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Speaker 3: been sent to Siberia, and he got a chance to

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Speaker 3: interact with him.

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Speaker 1: So Krapak can headed east Chris, crossing the desolate wilderness

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Speaker 1: on a trek that lasted over five years and covered

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Speaker 1: an incredible fifty thousand miles.

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Speaker 3: I actually have been lucky enough to spend time in

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Speaker 3: Siberia in the winter, and it's an extraordinarily difficult environment

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Speaker 3: to survive in if you're not staying like I was

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Speaker 3: in a embassy suite hotel.

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Speaker 1: Siberian winters met enduring blizzards with temperatures of minus sixty degrees.

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Speaker 1: But Peter forged on, traveling by.

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Speaker 3: Dogsln there he was being driven around under this layer

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Speaker 3: of blankets, just moving from city to city, and it

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Speaker 3: was a very very difficult time, but he seemed to

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Speaker 3: savor it.

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Speaker 1: In this unforgiving place. The butting scientist finally had a

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Speaker 1: chance to watch animal behavior in the wild, and he

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Speaker 1: expected to see just what Darwin had.

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Speaker 3: Whatever has to be done to get more resources and

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Speaker 3: produce more babies, that's what's going to be done. And

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Speaker 3: it was thought that that was mostly intense competition. What

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Speaker 3: Tennyson would later call nature red in tooth and claw,

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Speaker 3: that it was just a bloodbath out there.

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Speaker 1: But a bloodbath is not what Kropotkin saw.

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Speaker 3: Instead, what he saw is what he began to call

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Speaker 3: mutual aid.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere he looked, Kropotkin saw animals cooperating with one another

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Speaker 2: in the face of tough conditions. Termites collaborated to build hives,

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Speaker 2: wolves hunted in packs, while horses and deer gathered together

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Speaker 2: as protection from predators. Kropotkin was particularly impressed by a

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Speaker 2: species of solitary beetle, which buried food underground to feed

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Speaker 2: their larvae. But if they found a big dead mouse

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Speaker 2: or bird, four, six, or even ten, beetles would arrive

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Speaker 2: to lend a hand.

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Speaker 3: There was competition, but the competition was against a harsh

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Speaker 3: natural world, and that if you could help each other

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Speaker 3: overcome the difficulties of living in that harsh world, then

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Speaker 3: everybody would do better then if nobody did that.

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Speaker 2: And what Kropotkin saw in Siberia's animals seemed to hold

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Speaker 2: true for its people too. Kropotkin observed example after example

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Speaker 2: of Russian peasants helping one another to thrive in harsh conditions,

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Speaker 2: just like those Brazilian ocean fishermen sailing as one into

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Speaker 2: dangerous seas.

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Speaker 3: And what he hypothesized was that the further away from

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Speaker 3: the seat of government the village was the more mutual

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Speaker 3: age you saw in the people when they were freed

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Speaker 3: of the shackles of government, that's when they cooperated with

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Speaker 3: each other.

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Speaker 1: Kropakin returned from his five year Siberian trek convinced about

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Speaker 1: mutual aid and much more radical in his political views,

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Speaker 1: which he soon began promoting all over the country. But

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Speaker 1: zarre Nicholas wasn't such a big fan of anarchists, and

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Speaker 1: so he sent his former protege to prison. But Kropawkin

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Speaker 1: wasn't ready to give up. He began conspiring with fellow

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Speaker 1: revolutionaries on a jail break.

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Speaker 3: The first plan was that a woman in a beautiful

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Speaker 3: Russian dress would be standing outside the prison and she

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Speaker 3: would have a red balloon, and when she let it

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Speaker 3: go up to the air, this is when it was

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Speaker 3: safe for him to try to escape.

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Speaker 1: But even though the coast was clear, there was a

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Speaker 1: hitch in the escape plan.

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Speaker 3: This was the one day that outside the prison there

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Speaker 3: weren't a bunch of people selling these little red balloons

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Speaker 3: that they had for kids.

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Speaker 2: Not a single balloon was to be found. One was

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Speaker 2: discovered at last, in the possession of a child, but

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Speaker 2: it was too old and would not fly.

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Speaker 1: So Kroupac can bide it as time until a brief

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Speaker 1: illness landed him in the prison hospital, where the security

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Speaker 1: wasn't his tight. It was time for jailbreak.

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Speaker 4: Plan B.

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Speaker 2: My comrade was to walk up and down with the

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Speaker 2: handkerchief in his hand, which at the approach of the

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Speaker 2: carts he was to put in his pocket. A violinist

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Speaker 2: stood with his violin ready to play. When the signal

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Speaker 2: streak clear reached him.

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Speaker 1: Jamille, you're getting really good at this whole aristocratic voiceover thing. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: this time the escape plan worked.

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Speaker 3: He escapes, and its big news.

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Speaker 1: Kropakin had to flee Russia, but he didn't exactly keep

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Speaker 1: a little.

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Speaker 3: He actually starts working for Nature magazine, the magazine today

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Speaker 3: that's still considered one of the best science magazines in

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Speaker 3: the world, and this is where he begins to comulgate

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Speaker 3: his ideas on mutual aid.

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Speaker 1: Kripawkin presented a new theory of human nature, one based

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Speaker 1: on cooperation and kindness, not Darwinian competition and strife, and

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Speaker 1: people flock to these new ideas. Kropakin was soon booked

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Speaker 1: on a sold out around the world speaking tour, and

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Speaker 1: this time he traveled without the dog sled.

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Speaker 3: These are tours that are being followed by the New

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Speaker 3: York Times. They love every move he makes. He has

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Speaker 3: a kind of Santa Claus look by this time that

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Speaker 3: makes them kind of very lovable. He's talking and everywhere,

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Speaker 3: from the National Geographic Society to Harvard to everywhere you

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Speaker 3: can imagine.

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Speaker 1: Kropoakin became a scientific and political rock star. An OG

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Speaker 1: influencer Oscar Wilde even christened him the White Christ.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's an alright name for him, But I've got

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Speaker 2: an alternative. You ready for this? So the Buddha was

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Speaker 2: a prince, just like and just like Krapotkin gave it

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Speaker 2: all up and found his tradition. So what do you think,

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Speaker 2: Kropotkin the Russian Buddha.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but I get it.

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Speaker 4: I get it.

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Speaker 2: That's fair. Okay, I'm no Oscar Wilde.

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Speaker 1: Kropotkin and his ideas remained a hot commodity for decades,

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Speaker 1: that is until the whole anarchy thing fell out of favor.

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Speaker 3: There was an anarchist who killed William McKinley, President of

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Speaker 3: the United States. There was even a rumor that Kropotkin

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Speaker 3: was involved, which was completely false. But there was a

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Speaker 3: very strong negative response to this notion of anarchism, and

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Speaker 3: Krapotagin was so tightly tied to that that his ideas

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Speaker 3: not only a bad anarchy, but his ideas in general

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Speaker 3: became much less popular.

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Speaker 1: Mutual aids soon took a backseat, and social Darwinism became

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Speaker 1: the dominant economic theory of the day, in part because

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Speaker 1: the rich and powerful of the early twentieth century kind

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Speaker 1: of liked the idea that wealth and privilege naturally went

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Speaker 1: to the fittest of the species. I mean, what a

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Speaker 1: great justification for the perialists, racists, and robber parents of

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: So we're obviously not fans of how some people have

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Speaker 2: framed Darwinism over the years, But do Krapotkin's ideas about

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Speaker 2: mutual aid stand the test of time? Are humans and

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Speaker 2: other animals like Darwin's competitive strivers? Or are we more

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Speaker 2: cooperative than most people assume? Find out when the Happiness

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Speaker 2: lab returns in a moment.

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Speaker 1: It's September nineteenth, twenty seventeen, and Hurricane Maria is barreling

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Speaker 1: across the Caribbean Sea. The category five storm was the

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Speaker 1: most intense tropical cyclone ever recorded, and its one hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy five milin hour winds would soon hit madeland

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Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, causing a terrible humanitarian crisis that would kill thousands.

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Speaker 1: I remember watching the radar that day in horror, terrified

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Speaker 1: not just for Puerto Rico, but also for a much

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Speaker 1: tinier island that happened to know very very well. Cayo Santiago,

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Speaker 1: which sits about a mile off the coast of Puerto Rico,

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Speaker 1: is known as La Isla de los Monos, the Island

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Speaker 1: of the Monkeys. Kyo is home not to humans, but

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Speaker 1: to a population of more than a thousand reesis macaques.

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Speaker 1: The monkeys were brought to the island for scientific observation

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen thirty eight. Since then, hundreds of researchers

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Speaker 1: have traveled there to study the monkey's natural behavior, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of researchers, including me. Fun fact, before I became a

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Speaker 1: happiness scientist, I studied monkeys and Kyo was my main

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Speaker 1: field site. I started working on Cayo when I was

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Speaker 1: only a college sophomore. I won't do the math for you,

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Speaker 1: but that means I've known this group of monkeys for

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Speaker 1: a long time. They're kind of like an extended family.

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Speaker 1: So when the deadliest hurricane in history was poised for

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Speaker 1: a direct hit on Cayo at the most powerful point

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Speaker 1: in its trajectory, I was terrified. There are no structures

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Speaker 1: to shelter in on Cayo, no place for the monkeys

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Speaker 1: to hide. A storm that powerful meant the entire column

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Speaker 1: might perish. For days, we couldn't find out what happened,

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Speaker 1: either to the people living close to Kyo or to

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Speaker 1: the monkeys themselves. Eventually, one of my colleagues sent a

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Speaker 1: helicopter to fly over the island and view the damage.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this sounds terrifying, Lorie, I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: scared to ask. But what happened?

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Speaker 1: Well, there was good news and bad news. The good

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Speaker 1: news is amazingly most of the monkeys had survived all right.

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Speaker 2: Well, that part's a relief for what's the bad news.

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Speaker 1: Well, most of the island itself was demolished. All but

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Speaker 1: a few of the island's palm trees were knocked down

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Speaker 1: or snapped fully in half, and nearly two thirds of

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Speaker 1: the island's other vegetation was gone. Less vegetation meant less

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Speaker 1: tree cover, and less tree cover meant less shade for

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Speaker 1: the monkeys. Without shade, parts of Cayo can heat up

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Speaker 1: to over one hundred and four degrees. With so many

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Speaker 1: cooler spots completely gone, how far would the monkeys go

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Speaker 1: to compete for the little shade that was left?

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Speaker 2: Yikes? What ended up happening?

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Speaker 1: Well, Reese's monkeys aren't the nicest of primates. Scientists placed

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Speaker 1: monkeys on a continent from egalitarian nice to despotic nasty,

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Speaker 1: and reesis macaques are the most despotic of all monkey species.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty much jerks to one another on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: In the face of scarce shade, I assumed that the

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Speaker 1: whole island would turn into a blood bath.

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Speaker 2: So I guess you had kind of a cynical prediction,

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Speaker 2: was it right? Well?

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Speaker 1: Primatologist Lauren Brent and her colleagues returned to the island

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Speaker 1: to collect data on the monkey's aggression. They expecting the worst,

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Speaker 1: but what they saw was shocking the monkeys were being

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Speaker 1: nicer to one another. The team compared the monkey's behavior

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Speaker 1: post Maria to what they'd observed and the five years

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Speaker 1: before the hurricane. The changes were striking. After the storm,

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Speaker 1: the overall number of fights decreased. Rather than a bloodbath,

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Speaker 1: the monkeys seemed to be working together to coexist peacefully

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Speaker 1: in the small number of shady spots left. The researchers

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Speaker 1: also examined the monkey's survival rates. They found that the

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Speaker 1: monkeys who fought less before the hurricane, those kinder and

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Speaker 1: more cooperative monkey souls. They lived longer after the storm

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Speaker 1: than the more despotic, competitive monkeys When the going tough.

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Speaker 1: It was the nice guys that survived and flourished in

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Speaker 1: a changing world in which monkeys had to sit in

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Speaker 1: close proximity to stay cool, there was a cost to

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Speaker 1: being a jerk. In this environment, cooperation was more successful

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Speaker 1: than competition, and modern scientists have observed the same pattern

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Speaker 1: all over the animal kingdom.

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Speaker 2: Evolution has equipped animals to adapt beautifully to their situations,

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Speaker 2: but oftentimes survival of the fittest actually means survival of

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Speaker 2: the kindest. Individuals and groups who work together tend to

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Speaker 2: win out. A lot of great research suggests the same

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Speaker 2: might be true of people. There's a stereotype that disasters

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Speaker 2: reveal our true colors. For cynics, this is a bleak story.

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Speaker 2: Sure we can be polite and kind when everything's going well,

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Speaker 2: but when things fall apart, so do we. News coverage

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Speaker 2: during Hurricane Katrina was a great example of this. Journalists

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Speaker 2: focused on looting and even reported that a lot of

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Speaker 2: murders occurred in New Orleans during the flow. The truth

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Speaker 2: is far different. Research reveals that the hardest times often

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Speaker 2: bring out our best. Like the friendly macaques on Cayo Santiago,

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Speaker 2: people come together to help strangers and support one another.

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Speaker 2: People in war torn towns cooperate more with each other

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Speaker 2: than during peacetime. After earthquakes, tsunamis, and terrorist attacks, donations

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Speaker 2: within a community increase. A lot of the salacious reporting

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Speaker 2: after Hurricane Katrina turned out to be wrong, and although

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Speaker 2: it didn't make as much news, hundreds of private New

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Speaker 2: Orleanians formed the Cajun Navy, a boat brigade to help

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Speaker 2: people stranded by the floodwaters. Of course, we all lived

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Speaker 2: through a generational disaster not that long ago, giving us

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Speaker 2: another natural experiment, What do you think the COVID pandemic

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Speaker 2: did to human kindness? I recently asked a thousand Americans

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Speaker 2: this question. Most of them thought the pandemic had decreased

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Speaker 2: kind behavior, a standard Darwinian assumption, But it turns out

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Speaker 2: the opposite is true. In twenty twenty, twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and twenty twenty two, donations to charity, volunteering, and helping

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Speaker 2: strangers all increased. Again, tough times brought out human goodness,

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Speaker 2: whether the world noticed or not.

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Speaker 1: But Jamil, there seems to be at least one thing

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Speaker 1: that's different about humans. Unlike animals, we have theories about

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Speaker 1: how people behave during a crisis. How does that affect us?

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Speaker 2: Here's where things get more complicated and more interesting. Unlike

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Speaker 2: other animals, we have complex predictions about the future and

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Speaker 2: even about our own nature. These are the stories we

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Speaker 2: tell about ourselves. But they don't stay just stories. They

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Speaker 2: change how we act and become self fulfilling prophecies. So

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Speaker 2: it turns out that if you believe in social Darwinism,

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Speaker 2: it might become true for you. One example of this

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Speaker 2: is so called homo economicus. This is a name created

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Speaker 2: by economists to describe a hypothetical person focused only on

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Speaker 2: maximizing his own gain very social Darwinist. As we've seen,

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Speaker 2: people are nothing like homo economicists. They are way more

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Speaker 2: helpful and cooperative, even when it means giving up their

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Speaker 2: own resources. But it turns out that just learning about

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Speaker 2: this idea can change people. When college students become economics majors,

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Speaker 2: they learn this selfish view of human nature in many

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Speaker 2: of their classes. Over the years, they become more selfish,

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Speaker 2: like fishermen working on the lake. When leaders adopt a

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Speaker 2: selfish view of people, they don't just change themselves, but

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Speaker 2: the people around them too. Lots of companies use stack ranking,

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Speaker 2: where managers have to rank their teams from best to

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Speaker 2: worst performers, and people towards the bottom would be warned

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Speaker 2: or laid off. The logic here is that workplaces are

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Speaker 2: Darwinian contests for survival, and the best way to motivate

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Speaker 2: people is to tap into that selfishness and competition. In reality,

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Speaker 2: stack ranking is a disaster for workplaces. It makes people

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Speaker 2: less happy and more stress no surprise there, But it

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Speaker 2: also makes them less creative and productive. Why take a

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Speaker 2: risk on a new idea if the person next to

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Speaker 2: you would love for you to fail. Why share your

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Speaker 2: knowledge or skills with the colleague if they're really your enemy.

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Speaker 2: People in stack ranked environments are treated like their selfish

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Speaker 2: and they become more selfish. But that doesn't help any

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Speaker 2: of them succeed. Nonetheless, lots of bosses seem firmly wedded

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Speaker 2: to these old ways, thinking that a company only profits

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Speaker 2: when its workers are pitted against the opposition and against

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Speaker 2: each other. Not all bosses, though, some flourish by using

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Speaker 2: the philosophy of mutual aid instead.

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Speaker 4: All of a sudden, I didn't see people as receptionists

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Speaker 4: and hourly workers and machinists and accountants. I saw people

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Speaker 4: as somebody's precious child that was placed in my care.

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Speaker 2: We'll hear more when the Happiness Lab returns after this

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Speaker 2: short break.

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Speaker 1: One of the best examples of the power of mutual

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Speaker 1: aid in our own species comes from a rather unlikely place,

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Speaker 1: the cutthroat world of manufacturing.

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Speaker 4: My name is Bob Chapman. I run a global organization

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Speaker 4: called Barry Way Miller, and my goal is to use

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Speaker 4: business as a source for good in the world.

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Speaker 1: While became a senior executive at Barry Way Miller back

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. The company was founded at eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five making equipment for brewing, but it wasn't in

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Speaker 1: great financial shape when Bob arrived. But under his leadership,

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Speaker 1: Barry Waymiller has completely turned around. It's now a thriving

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Speaker 1: company with sales of over three billion dollars and renowned

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Speaker 1: clients like Coca Cola and Procter and Gamble. But if

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Speaker 1: you ask Bob why the company is so successful, you

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Speaker 1: won't hear any mention of earnings or stock prices or

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Speaker 1: fancy manufacturing techniques.

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Speaker 4: It's about people, purpose and performance, and the first word

435
00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:01,996
Speaker 4: is people. Our mission is we measure success by the

436
00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:05,076
Speaker 4: way we touch the lives of people. We touch our customers,

437
00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:07,756
Speaker 4: we touch our team members, we touch our suppliers, and

438
00:24:07,876 --> 00:24:10,356
Speaker 4: thinking about the impact we make on people's lives.

439
00:24:10,676 --> 00:24:14,036
Speaker 1: As he explains in his book Everybody Matters, the extraordinary

440
00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:16,716
Speaker 1: power of caring for your people like family. Bob is

441
00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:20,316
Speaker 1: evangelical about a practice he calls truly human leadership.

442
00:24:20,476 --> 00:24:22,316
Speaker 4: To be good stewards of people, we've got to have

443
00:24:22,356 --> 00:24:25,876
Speaker 4: a good business model, and then the fuel that activates

444
00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:29,236
Speaker 4: that business model is the culture of caring. If Ferrari

445
00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:33,036
Speaker 4: builds the ultimate high performance engine, and you put eighty

446
00:24:33,076 --> 00:24:36,236
Speaker 4: five octane in that engine, it'll start, it'll run, but

447
00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:38,956
Speaker 4: it probably won't run to its potential. But if you

448
00:24:38,996 --> 00:24:42,196
Speaker 4: put premium ninety one octane in it, it'll run to

449
00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:45,756
Speaker 4: its potential. So the premium fuel is our culture of caring.

450
00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,276
Speaker 1: But Bob wasn't always such a fan of this people

451
00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:51,676
Speaker 1: centered approach to leadership. Like many CEOs, he was trained

452
00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:54,276
Speaker 1: in the usual profit focused management practices.

453
00:24:54,436 --> 00:24:59,196
Speaker 4: It's all numbers, okay, it is all organic growth, you know,

454
00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:03,036
Speaker 4: share price appreciation, financial stability as well.

455
00:25:03,076 --> 00:25:03,676
Speaker 2: We're taught.

456
00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:08,276
Speaker 4: I was never taught, never heard, never told that the

457
00:25:08,276 --> 00:25:11,916
Speaker 4: way I would run Whimler would affect people's health and

458
00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:16,156
Speaker 4: people's personal lives. I thought it was about paying people

459
00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:17,956
Speaker 4: fairly and giving him benefits.

460
00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:18,396
Speaker 2: Okay.

461
00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:21,516
Speaker 4: I was a nice guy, we had a nice company.

462
00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:25,796
Speaker 4: But I saw people as functions for my success, and

463
00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:28,196
Speaker 4: that's what I thought business was about.

464
00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:31,036
Speaker 1: But all that changed when Bob had a set of

465
00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:34,276
Speaker 1: leadership revelations, as he puts it, insights that helped him

466
00:25:34,316 --> 00:25:37,676
Speaker 1: realize just how impactful mutual aid could be in his business.

467
00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:41,516
Speaker 1: One of these revelations happened fittingly enough, while at church

468
00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:42,676
Speaker 1: with his wife.

469
00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:45,236
Speaker 4: And I said, our rector has only got us for

470
00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:49,196
Speaker 4: one hour a week. We have people in our company

471
00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:53,556
Speaker 4: for forty hours a week. We are forty times more

472
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,796
Speaker 4: powerful to impact people's lives than our church. As I

473
00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:01,076
Speaker 4: walked out of the church that day, I said to myself,

474
00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:04,276
Speaker 4: business could be the most powerful force for good in

475
00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:08,636
Speaker 4: the world if we had leaders who had the skills

476
00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,236
Speaker 4: and curve reach to care for the people they had

477
00:26:11,276 --> 00:26:14,436
Speaker 4: the privilege of leading. So it's a completely different view

478
00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:16,916
Speaker 4: of what is the responsibility of leadership.

479
00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:19,636
Speaker 1: Bob was excited to put this new vision of leadership

480
00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:22,396
Speaker 1: into practice at Barry Wymiller, but many at the company

481
00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:24,356
Speaker 1: were skeptical, at least at first.

482
00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:27,316
Speaker 4: One of our team members said to me about a

483
00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:30,796
Speaker 4: lot of great companies have great statements on their walls,

484
00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:32,996
Speaker 4: they just don't live them. And I took that as

485
00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:33,756
Speaker 4: a challenge.

486
00:26:33,916 --> 00:26:36,716
Speaker 1: That challenge came to a head during the economic downturn

487
00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:37,556
Speaker 1: of two thousand and.

488
00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 4: Eight, the likes of which I had never seen before.

489
00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:41,556
Speaker 4: I mean, the world seemed like it was falling apart.

490
00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 1: Like other manufacturing companies, Barry Way Miller found itself receiving

491
00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,196
Speaker 1: fewer and fewer new orders. Ever, the optimist Bob believed

492
00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,436
Speaker 1: the company would find a way and navigate the storm.

493
00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:54,476
Speaker 1: But while traveling internationally, he got an email announcing that

494
00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 1: the company's biggest purchaser had pulled out.

495
00:26:57,276 --> 00:27:00,076
Speaker 4: And I sat in my hotel room and I said,

496
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:01,356
Speaker 4: oh my god, it's hit us.

497
00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:04,996
Speaker 1: Bob's mind immediately went to the standard advice he'd heard

498
00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:05,756
Speaker 1: in business school.

499
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:08,516
Speaker 4: You got to let people go. It's not fund it's

500
00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:10,876
Speaker 4: not easy, but you got to do that. The organization

501
00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:12,396
Speaker 4: won't get through this if we don't.

502
00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:16,116
Speaker 1: But extensive layoffs didn't really jive with the new philosophy

503
00:27:16,156 --> 00:27:17,076
Speaker 1: he'd been espousing.

504
00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:20,116
Speaker 4: Oh my god, if we measure success by the way

505
00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:23,396
Speaker 4: we touch the lives of people, and we lay people

506
00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:26,876
Speaker 4: off in an environment where there's no jobs, we are

507
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:28,076
Speaker 4: going to hurt people.

508
00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:31,756
Speaker 1: Bob had heard over and over that during tough times,

509
00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:35,476
Speaker 1: businesses needed to be Darwinian, that only the fittest would survive.

510
00:27:36,036 --> 00:27:39,476
Speaker 1: But Bob wanted a different approach. He hadn't read Peter Kropotkin,

511
00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:41,836
Speaker 1: but the solution he came up with looked a lot

512
00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:42,716
Speaker 1: like mutual aid.

513
00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:46,356
Speaker 4: And I said, what would a caring family do if

514
00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:49,156
Speaker 4: a member of the family had a crisis, we'd all

515
00:27:49,196 --> 00:27:51,916
Speaker 4: pitch in and take a little pain so that that

516
00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:54,236
Speaker 4: family member would not take a great deal of pain.

517
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,236
Speaker 1: He called his board with what, at first glance seemed

518
00:27:57,276 --> 00:27:58,916
Speaker 1: like a ridiculous plan, and I.

519
00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,916
Speaker 4: Said, what if we ask everybody to take a month

520
00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:05,196
Speaker 4: off without pay so we don't have to let anybody go.

521
00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:09,676
Speaker 1: The board reluctantly agreed, and Barry Way Miller rolled out

522
00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:11,716
Speaker 1: its radical no layoffs approach.

523
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:15,956
Speaker 4: We had validated that we actually care about our people,

524
00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:19,476
Speaker 4: and I have never seen anything like this. The relief,

525
00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:23,876
Speaker 4: this comfort, and the feedback we got. They felt safe

526
00:28:23,996 --> 00:28:26,956
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, in this world where everybody was

527
00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:31,476
Speaker 4: falling apart, they felt safe. And what was astounding to

528
00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:35,076
Speaker 4: me is people didn't really feel like they were giving

529
00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:37,716
Speaker 4: up a month's paid They really felt like they were

530
00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:41,476
Speaker 4: helping their fellow team members keep their job. And we

531
00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 4: even had some of the older team members say, look

532
00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,516
Speaker 4: at I'm fifty five, I can afford to take two

533
00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:51,076
Speaker 4: months off, and maybe young Bill or young Mary who's

534
00:28:51,116 --> 00:28:53,756
Speaker 4: got a young family who can't afore the month. And

535
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:57,116
Speaker 4: so we actually had people volunteer to take other people's

536
00:28:57,196 --> 00:28:57,796
Speaker 4: time off.

537
00:28:57,916 --> 00:29:01,116
Speaker 1: When feast with a sharp downturn, companies assume that aggressive

538
00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:03,716
Speaker 1: staffing and pay cuts are the only way to survive.

539
00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:08,516
Speaker 1: But Bob forged a more cooperative, more cropotkinesque path, and

540
00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:12,076
Speaker 1: the people in his care responded with generosity and compassion.

541
00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,476
Speaker 1: In the end, Barry Way Miller didn't just survive the

542
00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:19,836
Speaker 1: economic downturn, they soared. Bob's culture of mutual aid wound

543
00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:23,436
Speaker 1: up improving the company's employee retention and its bottom line.

544
00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:26,876
Speaker 4: The company has become a symbol in the world for

545
00:29:27,036 --> 00:29:30,836
Speaker 4: what business could be. Some people say it's about getting

546
00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:34,316
Speaker 4: the right people on the bus. I say, no, no, no,

547
00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:37,956
Speaker 4: It's about building a safe bus, which is your business model,

548
00:29:38,596 --> 00:29:41,396
Speaker 4: and then having leaders who know how to drive that bus,

549
00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:43,956
Speaker 4: and that anybody you invite to get on it will

550
00:29:43,996 --> 00:29:44,636
Speaker 4: be safe.

551
00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:47,716
Speaker 1: But Bob worries that many business leaders today have no

552
00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:50,516
Speaker 1: idea how to drive that bus safely. He says that

553
00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:54,156
Speaker 1: the CEOs making massive layoffs today are treating their companies

554
00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:56,676
Speaker 1: workers not like people but pokerchips.

555
00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:01,276
Speaker 4: Nobody talks about the impact on these lives of people

556
00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:03,916
Speaker 4: who simply wanted to know that they had a future

557
00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:06,196
Speaker 4: with your company when they joined it, and you walked

558
00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:08,716
Speaker 4: up and said, sorry, we need to give the investors

559
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:09,116
Speaker 4: what they want.

560
00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:12,956
Speaker 1: Bob has now devoted his life to fighting this competitive

561
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:15,756
Speaker 1: culture in business. He and his team travel around the

562
00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:20,596
Speaker 1: country preaching the message of people centric leadership to other CEOs.

563
00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:25,516
Speaker 4: And we have helped major organizations move from using people

564
00:30:25,556 --> 00:30:27,996
Speaker 4: to care in for people. You know, I had a

565
00:30:28,236 --> 00:30:31,556
Speaker 4: senior executive of a major corporation who heard me speak

566
00:30:31,636 --> 00:30:34,796
Speaker 4: at a Dallas event and he came up to me afterwards.

567
00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:37,636
Speaker 4: He said, I thought my job was to build the

568
00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:41,356
Speaker 4: world's biggest organization in our field, and I did that,

569
00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:44,956
Speaker 4: But until I heard you talk, it never occurred to

570
00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:47,516
Speaker 4: me to care for one hundred and thirty thousand people

571
00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:51,156
Speaker 4: in our organization. But I hear that all the time.

572
00:30:51,796 --> 00:30:54,556
Speaker 1: But Bob has seen time and again the developing cultures

573
00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:58,316
Speaker 1: of mutual aid can lead to more awards than leaders realize.

574
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:01,716
Speaker 4: People say, how can you afford to do all these

575
00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:03,076
Speaker 4: things to care for your people?

576
00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:04,236
Speaker 2: You know, I get that a.

577
00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:07,436
Speaker 4: Question all the time, and I say, let me flip that,

578
00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:11,116
Speaker 4: how do you justify and not caring for people?

579
00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:16,436
Speaker 2: Let's return to those fishing villages from the top of

580
00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:20,916
Speaker 2: this episode. Most of us would prefer a collaborative ocean community,

581
00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:24,476
Speaker 2: but feel like we're stuck in a laketown. We assume

582
00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:27,236
Speaker 2: that the laws of nature dictate that we are naturally

583
00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:30,916
Speaker 2: competitive and need to fight each other to survive, but

584
00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:34,956
Speaker 2: the real story is more complicated and more beautiful. Human

585
00:31:35,036 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 2: nature isn't built for survival of the meanest and most competitive.

586
00:31:39,156 --> 00:31:44,196
Speaker 2: In sometimes especially tough times, the kind survive and thrive,

587
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:48,036
Speaker 2: whether you're a monkey sharing shade with a stranger or

588
00:31:48,076 --> 00:31:51,676
Speaker 2: a human sharing your furlough with a team member. More

589
00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:54,756
Speaker 2: than that, we humans are different. We're not at the

590
00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:58,556
Speaker 2: mercy of whichever environment we're dropped into. We can build

591
00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:03,996
Speaker 2: our own social worlds that emphasize cooperation over competition, Krypotkeanism

592
00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:08,556
Speaker 2: over social Darwinism. If, like Bob Chapman, we create the

593
00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:13,276
Speaker 2: condition for a better kinder world, people will adapt. Self

594
00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,596
Speaker 2: fulfilling prophecies can work against us, but they can also

595
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:20,556
Speaker 2: work for us, bringing the best out of people and cultures.

596
00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:23,676
Speaker 2: All we need to do is drop the cynicism and

597
00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:27,836
Speaker 2: believe in each other. Thankfully, the evidence is on our side.

598
00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:30,436
Speaker 2: To see the best in people. We don't need to

599
00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:33,636
Speaker 2: put on rose colored glasses. We just need to take

600
00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:37,156
Speaker 2: off the mud colored glasses we usually walk around with it.

601
00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:40,996
Speaker 1: In the next episode in this series, on Finding Hope,

602
00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:43,836
Speaker 1: Jimmie and I will explore another topic that many of

603
00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:48,276
Speaker 1: us feel cynical about, polarization. These days, it often feels

604
00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:51,316
Speaker 1: like we're agreeing less and fighting more. Where has all

605
00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,516
Speaker 1: this anger come from? And are our cynical minds actually

606
00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:56,036
Speaker 1: right about how bad things are?

607
00:32:56,716 --> 00:32:56,916
Speaker 2: Well?

608
00:32:57,036 --> 00:32:59,716
Speaker 1: Learn more next time on a Happiness Last with me

609
00:32:59,996 --> 00:33:01,876
Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos.

610
00:33:01,316 --> 00:33:03,076
Speaker 2: And me Doctor Jamil Zaki.

611
00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:05,796
Speaker 1: Wow, you gotta work on your Russian accent.

612
00:33:05,876 --> 00:33:07,596
Speaker 2: I will never work on my Russian accent.

613
00:33:07,596 --> 00:33:10,876
Speaker 1: God give me some work for podcast guys whatever anywhere.

614
00:33:14,196 --> 00:33:16,196
Speaker 4: No wow

615
00:33:18,276 --> 00:33:21,836
Speaker 2: Wow mh