Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. We wanted to include a quick content warning
Speaker 1: for this episode regarding a discussion we have about something
Speaker 1: in today's film that can easily be interpreted as sexual misconduct.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. On the beck Del Cast, the questions
Speaker 1: asked if movies have women in um, are all their
Speaker 1: discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism
Speaker 1: the patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
Speaker 1: My name Shamie Loftus. And this is our movie. This
Speaker 1: is our movie. Nope, this is we made a movie.
Speaker 1: This is our movie. Welcome to our movie. Uh, this
Speaker 1: is our podcast. It's been on for four years. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I said it was a movie. Well,
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say, like, this is
Speaker 1: our movie podcast, this is our movie. Oh I could
Speaker 1: have saved it in that way. You could have just
Speaker 1: really seamlessly fixed it without anyone being any wiser. Well,
Speaker 1: I only do one take. That's uh, something I famously do.
Speaker 1: We're talking about ghost World today on our podcast, which
Speaker 1: is about movies that uh yeah, it's been on for
Speaker 1: many years. Oh, our podcast is about Oh, I thought
Speaker 1: you meant the Ghost World is about movies. I'm like I,
Speaker 1: I just like sorry. I just got out of a lobotomy,
Speaker 1: so that's why I'm sounding this way. It's difficult. It's
Speaker 1: a difficult day. Um five hundred degrees today and my
Speaker 1: brain is just boiling in my head. Um, is this
Speaker 1: a podcast? It's a podcast about movies in which we
Speaker 1: examine the story through an intersectional feminist lens. It's inspired
Speaker 1: by the Bechtel test by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechtel
Speaker 1: is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. That requires, for
Speaker 1: our purposes that too characters that are not coded male
Speaker 1: with names speak to each other about something other than
Speaker 1: a credited male character for two lines of dialogue. Doesn't
Speaker 1: happen a lot? Yeah, but it does happen. Should we
Speaker 1: test it out? Yeah, let's do it. Hey shamey? Yep, No,
Speaker 1: I was gonna pull a quote from the movie and
Speaker 1: nothing fits, so never Okay, I have no problem with that,
Speaker 1: and that passes the test. Yep. Things that aren't good
Speaker 1: dialogue pass the tests all the time. It's true. Let's
Speaker 1: introduce our guest. Yes, she is the creator and star
Speaker 1: of Difficult People. She is the co host of Double
Speaker 1: Threat podcast. It's Julie Clausner. Hi. Hello, Hello, thanks for
Speaker 1: having me, Thanks for being here. Absolutely, So we're talking
Speaker 1: about Ghost World. Um, Julie, what's your relationship with this movie?
Speaker 1: I love Ghost World is one of my favorite movies,
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to talk about it in the context
Speaker 1: of the Bechtel Test because us the film itself was
Speaker 1: so dramatically different from the book source material, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people have, you know, take great issue in
Speaker 1: the focus of the film being on the relationship between
Speaker 1: ing it and Seymour as opposed to in It and Rebecca,
Speaker 1: and I completely understand that. I think of them as
Speaker 1: two completely different works. But um, I think it's really
Speaker 1: interesting to talk about that in the context of female
Speaker 1: coded characters speaking to each other about things besides a
Speaker 1: man or a crush. And while I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: this is definitely a step in the in the failure
Speaker 1: of that test direction, I just think it's such an
Speaker 1: outstanding movie and its own right, exclusive of the source
Speaker 1: material that UM, I'm just always excited to talk about
Speaker 1: Ghost World. So are you familiar with the source material?
Speaker 1: Have you read the comics. Yes, oh cool, okay, nice,
Speaker 1: that's helpful for us. We don't quize me because also,
Speaker 1: I didn't you watch this for the podcast. I just
Speaker 1: figured I've seen it so many times that i'll, you know,
Speaker 1: for sure, I don't. Just don't quiz me. I'm going
Speaker 1: to fail. You know what, quiz me? No, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Quiz me. I'm ready, let's do it. On page forty seven.
Speaker 1: Come on, come on, how dare you? Jamie? What's your
Speaker 1: relationship with this film? Very short? I had not seen
Speaker 1: this movie before. I um, I don't know. I've been
Speaker 1: It's been recommended to me for years and years, and
Speaker 1: it was just one of those movies that I had
Speaker 1: not gotten around to seeing, and I don't It's like
Speaker 1: one of those movies that when I finally did watch it,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I thought it was about. But
Speaker 1: it's not whatever it was. It is not what the
Speaker 1: movie is actually about. I feel like there's a ton
Speaker 1: to talk about here. Yeah, I'm very conflicted. Like I
Speaker 1: think that if I if I had seen this movie
Speaker 1: when it came out and or like when I was
Speaker 1: a team in, I would feel probably different about it
Speaker 1: than just coming in to watch it for the backtel cast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about it. What about you, Caitlin?
Speaker 1: Had you seen this before I had? Um? I saw it,
Speaker 1: I think when I was a freshman in college. Um,
Speaker 1: And that would have been a few years after it
Speaker 1: came out. That would have been in like oh, four
Speaker 1: oh five. I was about the same age as the characters.
Speaker 1: And I I was also going to be like, I'm
Speaker 1: sure if I had seen this when it came out,
Speaker 1: I would feel differently about it. But I kind of
Speaker 1: did see it at that age, and I, UM do not.
Speaker 1: I can't say that I like this movie, and I
Speaker 1: have reasons. I also am not a fan of this movie.
Speaker 1: It's I don't know, I mean, but I know it's
Speaker 1: value and also, Okay, so it's a huge it's a
Speaker 1: big cult classic. It is very meaningful and very valuable
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, such as yourself, Julie. I
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that. But again, yeah, I think because
Speaker 1: like Jamie and I were watching it mostly through the
Speaker 1: lens of our podcast. It's there's some issues. Oh, certainly
Speaker 1: there's some issues, even not less, there's issues exclusive of
Speaker 1: the podcast. Absolutely, Yeah, I think the thing that bumped
Speaker 1: me the most on this watch and like analysis of
Speaker 1: it was how much this movie attempts to deal with
Speaker 1: race for an exclusively white cast and like in front
Speaker 1: of the camera and behind like it's just it just
Speaker 1: is the whitest movie on earth. No, no, there's no
Speaker 1: race in this world. There's no race in this world.
Speaker 1: But it also tries to address race through like a
Speaker 1: lot of different plots. It shouldn't. Yeah, I guess what
Speaker 1: I was saying. It's it is very bizarre. I think
Speaker 1: that the Yeah, the most surprising thing to me about
Speaker 1: the story, Like I was kind of I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that it will be dated in a number
Speaker 1: of ways in the way it treats its characters, but
Speaker 1: I was surprised that this movie even attempted to address race.
Speaker 1: And uh, you mean in terms of the of the
Speaker 1: poster of the old poster. Yeah, it's more has I
Speaker 1: think that's more about the lens of like a white
Speaker 1: person dealing with what art is. Because after this, he
Speaker 1: made Art School Confidential, which is about being an artist
Speaker 1: in you know, art school obviously, um, and and that
Speaker 1: sort of debate that you have internally these four walls
Speaker 1: and how different that is from the world outside. But
Speaker 1: the race of it, I think is just a total
Speaker 1: prop for the white characters to have a pointed departure.
Speaker 1: It could have been almost anything, right, which means like
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have been race. Yeah, Like, so they should
Speaker 1: have just I feel like they just should have chosen
Speaker 1: something something else that they were qualified to tackle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they could have. They could have chosen anything else. That's
Speaker 1: from olden times. That's not okay, And we'll talk more
Speaker 1: about that in a little bit. But um, should I
Speaker 1: just dive into the story and we'll go from there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it, all right. So we meet Enid and
Speaker 1: Rebecca played by Soora Birch and Scarlett Johansson, respectively. They
Speaker 1: are graduating from high school. They are a little They're
Speaker 1: not like the other girls. They're a little countercut. They're
Speaker 1: like the other girl. Like the other girls, they think
Speaker 1: that everything sucks, which I personally can relate to. So
Speaker 1: in that way, Yet it's a peak like seventeen year old,
Speaker 1: which is in a way that is like sometimes painful
Speaker 1: to look at. Sure, Yeah, Enid discovers that she has
Speaker 1: to go to summer school and retake an art class.
Speaker 1: We learn just a little bit about their back stories
Speaker 1: as well. Um they are not going to go to college.
Speaker 1: They plan to just enter the workforce and get an
Speaker 1: apartment together and move in together. Then they see an
Speaker 1: ad in the personal section for a guy who is
Speaker 1: looking for this um striking blonde woman who he had
Speaker 1: met at an airport shuttle and he thought they he
Speaker 1: had a connection with her. So they call him two
Speaker 1: more or less prank him. They pretend to be the
Speaker 1: story a king blonde um and tell him to go
Speaker 1: to this diner called Wowsville, which is great love it
Speaker 1: great name. So Enid and Rebecca wait for him there
Speaker 1: and they bring their friend Josh played by Brad Renfro,
Speaker 1: who will find that, like Enid, maybe has a crush
Speaker 1: on and so does maybe Rebecca. Not totally sure, totally clear.
Speaker 1: And then and I don't know, there's some context for
Speaker 1: that too, And like the ways that studios were trying
Speaker 1: to push the script to go, there's versions of this
Speaker 1: script where he takes on way more significance than he does,
Speaker 1: and the finished in the version that was released. And
Speaker 1: then the man from the ad shows up to Wallasville
Speaker 1: and you'll never believe who it is. It's Steve Steve Bushey,
Speaker 1: and he sits there. He waits, and they take pity
Speaker 1: on him and decide to follow him home. He is
Speaker 1: selling records at a garage sale. Becau he's a record
Speaker 1: collector and he's a music enthusiast, and they decide to
Speaker 1: go talk to him. They find out his name is Seymour.
Speaker 1: Rebecca thinks he's a loser, but Enid is like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I think he's kind of cool. So Enid
Speaker 1: listens to the record that she had bought from him.
Speaker 1: She really likes it. She goes back to see him
Speaker 1: and they talk about music, and then she and Rebecca
Speaker 1: go to a party at Seymour's um David Cross is
Speaker 1: there and he tries to hit on Rebecca and then
Speaker 1: Seymour is like, Enid, I can't believe you came to
Speaker 1: this party. I'm I'm such a loser. I haven't even
Speaker 1: had a girlfriend in four years. And she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll help you find a girlfriend. And then meanwhile, um,
Speaker 1: we see Enid in her art class. We see her
Speaker 1: her teacher criticizing her art projects that she breaks her
Speaker 1: hates car tunes. Yes, you draw car too. This is
Speaker 1: like Daniel Klow's like grinding a very personal ax and
Speaker 1: I think a very obvious way where he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: our teachers think cartoons are fucking stupid. Well guess what
Speaker 1: they're not. Like. That's kind of his whole acts to
Speaker 1: grind in the beginning of this storyline. If you draw
Speaker 1: a cartoon, you suck. So I guess he had a
Speaker 1: teacher that felt that way at some point, and he's
Speaker 1: he's not over it, right, because the teacher in this
Speaker 1: movie is often telling Enid that her projects are not
Speaker 1: thoughtful or political enough. Um. Meanwhile, Rebecca has gotten a
Speaker 1: job at a coffee shop. We will see Rebecca kind
Speaker 1: of becoming and hearing more and more to like societal
Speaker 1: conventions and expectations, and that she starts dressing a little
Speaker 1: bit more kind of conventionally, and she um gets a
Speaker 1: job and she wants to have her own home and
Speaker 1: things like that, while Enid is still sort of trying
Speaker 1: to live the counterculture life. And then Enid and Seymour
Speaker 1: go to a bar to watch music and she tries
Speaker 1: to set him up with this random woman there he
Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, and then they go back to
Speaker 1: Seymour's house and um, she finds this old poster from
Speaker 1: a Chicken fast food restaurant where he works as an
Speaker 1: assistant manager at their corporate headquarters. And this poster shows
Speaker 1: a very racist name and image that the restaurant used
Speaker 1: to like use. So she takes it with her, this
Speaker 1: poster and brings it into her art class as a
Speaker 1: found art project, and she says that with this piece,
Speaker 1: she's making a statement about racism, how it's whitewashed in
Speaker 1: our culture. And everyone in the class is like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's pretty fucked up, but the teacher is like, wow,
Speaker 1: what a remarkable achievement. Then we see um Enid celebrating
Speaker 1: Seymour's birthday with him, and while this is happening, he
Speaker 1: receives a call from the real striking blonde woman who
Speaker 1: he had placed the ad about Dana. Yeah, Enid convinces
Speaker 1: him to call her back and he meets her and
Speaker 1: they turned out to not have anything in common, but
Speaker 1: they start seeing each other anyway, to Enid's dismay. Now, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: her art piece of the racist poster is put on
Speaker 1: display at a student art show, but people are demanding
Speaker 1: its removal. Enid isn't even there to defend herself because
Speaker 1: she goes over to Seymours and she's like, hey, let's
Speaker 1: hang out and he's like, I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: good idea that we hang out anymore. And it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is just occurring to him now, yes, and it's
Speaker 1: like he's like, wait, hold on, I'm Steve BUSHEMI and
Speaker 1: my best friend is seventeen. The optics of this are
Speaker 1: not so good. Yes, another huge issue I take with this.
Speaker 1: It's very bizarre ya. And then she's like, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I won't bother you anymore. And then Rebecca is like, hey,
Speaker 1: you you clearly don't want to live with me anymore,
Speaker 1: so fuck you. Enid also live loses out on her
Speaker 1: scholarship opportunity for this art academy. Um. So this is
Speaker 1: what we would call the low point of the film,
Speaker 1: and she's sad. So she goes over to Seymour's again
Speaker 1: and she's like, how come you never asked me out
Speaker 1: when I was trying to find you a girlfriend? What
Speaker 1: if I just move in with you? And he's like shrug,
Speaker 1: and then they have sex, which I truly did not think.
Speaker 1: What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen the movie. I didn't
Speaker 1: think it was gonna happen, and then and then there
Speaker 1: it is, and it happens, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 1: And then Steve Bushemy pivots so many times. He's like,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't hang out anymore because you're seventeen. He's like,
Speaker 1: I thought about it. We should actually get married because
Speaker 1: you're seventeen. I'm like, okayes yep. And then so Enend
Speaker 1: seems to regret this decision to have sex with him
Speaker 1: immediately and starts blowing him off and then decides to
Speaker 1: move move in with Rebecca again. Meanwhile, Seymour finds out
Speaker 1: from Rebecca about the prank that they played on him
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the movie, and he thinks that
Speaker 1: she is in love with Josh, their friend who shows
Speaker 1: up every five minutes, so he so Seymour goes to
Speaker 1: confront him, ends up in the hospital. Enid comes to
Speaker 1: visit Seymour in the hospital and she apologizes and she's like, actually,
Speaker 1: you're my hero. You're the coolest person I know. But
Speaker 1: then Enid leaves. It seems like although she and Rebecca
Speaker 1: have made up, there kind of lives are headed on
Speaker 1: different paths. We see Seymour in therapy. He's talking about
Speaker 1: his breakup with Enid, and then Enid gets on a
Speaker 1: bus that is out of service and it might be
Speaker 1: a metaphor for her dying. It's me, it's a metaphor,
Speaker 1: the whole metaphor of us. Guy that you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: this was a book first, Yes, metaphor bus equals it
Speaker 1: was a book. So that's the story. Let's take a
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come right back to discuss.
Speaker 1: One of the things that stood out to me about
Speaker 1: this movie is was what you were saying earlier, Julie,
Speaker 1: was that I thought that this movie was going to
Speaker 1: be way more about Enid and Rebecca. But Scarlett Johansson
Speaker 1: is actually not in this movie that much. Yeah, Rebecca
Speaker 1: is not a very fleshed out character in the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess. I it's interesting because I wish that and
Speaker 1: I'm assuming the books that there was more focus on
Speaker 1: Rebecca because this movie, I mean, it's not really taking
Speaker 1: this side of either one of them on their approach
Speaker 1: to life, and I kind of appreciate that. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: they are taking different paths, and that is neither a
Speaker 1: good nor a bad thing, but but it is. It
Speaker 1: is so like just I don't know, there's so much
Speaker 1: about this movie that you're just like seventeen year olds
Speaker 1: are so frustrating, where like Enid is constantly mad at
Speaker 1: Rebecca like how dare you have a job for to support?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you fucking bratt. I just got so
Speaker 1: frustrated with Enid every step of this movie because she's
Speaker 1: I I she is very isolated by her own you know,
Speaker 1: by her own mentality and by her own approach to life.
Speaker 1: But then it's like there's so much like privilege tied
Speaker 1: up in the ways that she's frustrating. Like she's mad
Speaker 1: that her friend has to have a job to survive,
Speaker 1: which is like, yeah, that's frustrating for everybody, but more
Speaker 1: so the people doing it than their friends. And like
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, I I we don't. I guess
Speaker 1: I don't really know enough about Rebecca to really be
Speaker 1: attached to her. But of the two, I was team Rebecca,
Speaker 1: Team Rebecca, team grow up and get a life. Sure again,
Speaker 1: like I see the value in this movie and that
Speaker 1: there weren't that many thoughtful or subversive portrayals of team
Speaker 1: girls in media at as time, and I think that's
Speaker 1: why a lot of people latched on to it so much.
Speaker 1: And again, I appreciate what it's doing. In many ways,
Speaker 1: I relate to Enid and Rebecca like I was similar
Speaker 1: to them in some ways when I was a teenager.
Speaker 1: There are other ways in which I can't and don't
Speaker 1: relate to them. But isn't that the way with characters
Speaker 1: um For me, it's just like it's subversive as it
Speaker 1: is the things that it tries to subvert. In many cases,
Speaker 1: it mishandles. It's it's hard because it's I I was
Speaker 1: thinking a little bit about when we and they're they're
Speaker 1: extremely different movies, but I guess as an example of
Speaker 1: when we talked about Carrie a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: where that is like the experience of a teen girl
Speaker 1: in a very different genre, but it's told through the
Speaker 1: lens of so many different people who did not and
Speaker 1: could not possibly share the experience of a teen girl,
Speaker 1: and it all kind of like it feels like there
Speaker 1: are things that are true and relatable and like very
Speaker 1: emotionally poignant about it, but then it kind of gets
Speaker 1: lost because it's like, Okay, you know, a man originally
Speaker 1: wrote this book and then a different man. They're both
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure emotionally sensitive and wonderful people, but
Speaker 1: there's some stuff that just feels a little off and
Speaker 1: rings a little hollow, and I think that part of
Speaker 1: it can be attributed to that um where it's like
Speaker 1: to Brandon Palmer is not a sensitive no. I I
Speaker 1: just want to get that in there. But as far
Speaker 1: as like Terry and Daniel go, they seem to be
Speaker 1: like a well intentioned writing team that want to portray
Speaker 1: these experiences honestly, but I just kind of wish that
Speaker 1: they had like spoken to and and credited more women
Speaker 1: in that process, and the whole work probably would have
Speaker 1: been elevated if that were the case. The same thing
Speaker 1: goes for the I think kind of big miss as
Speaker 1: they make with the comments they try to make on
Speaker 1: racist like, you know, it's just they are not qualified
Speaker 1: to be making these statements, and I think that where
Speaker 1: it does succeed is where they're trying to communicate how
Speaker 1: clueless both Enid and Seymour are about racism, and how
Speaker 1: they are saying a lot of things but clearly not
Speaker 1: understanding them, to the point where Enid is literally trying
Speaker 1: to like advance herself off of the work of other
Speaker 1: people and off of the idea of racism without really
Speaker 1: doing any critical thinking or introspection about it. And that
Speaker 1: reads pretty clearly. But then what like, you have to
Speaker 1: have a black person involved in the production, and you
Speaker 1: have to have a black character otherwise you're just saying, like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand racism here it is here, like I
Speaker 1: don't know, it just doesn't. It just felt very strange
Speaker 1: to me. I agree, I think to that. So the
Speaker 1: comic book was written by Daniel Klou's He co wrote
Speaker 1: the screenplay with Terry why Off, who directed the film.
Speaker 1: So that those are those are people who are telling
Speaker 1: this story. Um, I feel like this is another case
Speaker 1: of like men observing women in the world and thinking,
Speaker 1: I get it. I see how women be, so I'll
Speaker 1: tell their story. And to me, we see a lot
Speaker 1: of this, like, you know, these girls are not like
Speaker 1: the other girls, which I want to clarify something about that, um,
Speaker 1: because every time I teach my my screenwriting class, my
Speaker 1: students are always like, I just want to make sure
Speaker 1: my girl isn't like one of the girls who's not
Speaker 1: like the other girls. And I'm like because I think
Speaker 1: it can maybe be easily misinterpreted. Um, what we take
Speaker 1: issue with is the idea that a woman will behave
Speaker 1: a certain way because she does not want to be
Speaker 1: perceived as being like other women, because other women equals bad,
Speaker 1: because like femininity or womanhood or anything like that is
Speaker 1: a negative thing, and they're trying to disassociate themselves with that.
Speaker 1: That is what we mean by this when we comment
Speaker 1: on this trope, And this is kind of what the
Speaker 1: characters are doing, especially in how they view other female
Speaker 1: characters in this movie. Because even though Enid and Rebecca
Speaker 1: have a what feels like a strong relationship at first,
Speaker 1: although it deteriorates over the course of the movie, there
Speaker 1: are various other characters like a classmate of theirs named
Speaker 1: Melaura who they who just seems to want to hang
Speaker 1: out with them, and they're like, she's so awful. Enid
Speaker 1: hates her like I guess former step mom, or like
Speaker 1: a next girlfriend of her dad's who he starts dating again. Um,
Speaker 1: we're not really sure why she hates her. Think the
Speaker 1: way that the art teacher and the star art student
Speaker 1: is also kind of telling to where it's like the
Speaker 1: star art teacher is very I mean again, I'm just
Speaker 1: like I think that it genuinely as Daniel Klaus grinding
Speaker 1: some old acts that he has from high school. But
Speaker 1: but it is it's like this uh woman who only
Speaker 1: wants to see art about like a bore and vagina,
Speaker 1: and the student who gets rewarded is a like I
Speaker 1: think she's made out to be this overly serious artist
Speaker 1: who only makes things about abortion and vagina and that
Speaker 1: is rewarded, and so it's like, yeah, the way that
Speaker 1: other women are characterized it is a little like you know,
Speaker 1: en It and Rebecca are the outliers. What I do
Speaker 1: appreciate is that in It and Rebecca are clearly flawed,
Speaker 1: and it's made clear to the audience that their way
Speaker 1: of life is not sustainable or like quote unquote right,
Speaker 1: but it is given the most focus. I think, like
Speaker 1: kind of piggybacking off of that, the way that feminism
Speaker 1: is represented in the movie is made to seem like
Speaker 1: foolish and like that feminists are ridiculous because like the
Speaker 1: art that this student is making that the teacher is
Speaker 1: really praising is like feminist art that's pro choice and
Speaker 1: that's you know about there. Let me find the quote
Speaker 1: here something about a shocking image of repressed femininity. And
Speaker 1: then there's also this moment where Rebecca they're looking for
Speaker 1: apartments in like the in the newspaper, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: here's one. Oh wait a minute, you'd have to live
Speaker 1: with a feminist and her two cats. Um. So it's
Speaker 1: again it's like, I it's a weird because it's like
Speaker 1: I understand what they're critiquing, and it is kind of
Speaker 1: funny in moments where it's like I feel like the
Speaker 1: art teacher character and the star art student are critiquing
Speaker 1: like the overly serious art world of like here's a
Speaker 1: cup and it symbolizes this serious issue, and I get
Speaker 1: that that is silly and like it is funny to
Speaker 1: poke fun at that mentality, but it does seem to
Speaker 1: but the the again, it's it's similar to the fact
Speaker 1: that they choose race as a topic to make this
Speaker 1: critique they're not qualified to make. It doesn't quite read
Speaker 1: very well for like two straight male artists in collaboration
Speaker 1: to be like we're gonna poke fun at feminist art specifically,
Speaker 1: like why why is that the art they specifically choose
Speaker 1: to pick on. There's so much overly serious art that
Speaker 1: you could, you know, choose and tell a more effective joke.
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah for sure. Um well, Julie curious
Speaker 1: because so far we've only heavily criticized the movie. What
Speaker 1: was it that drew you to this movie, into this
Speaker 1: story and these characters? Like why I was exactly liking
Speaker 1: it in high school. I've never seen a character that's
Speaker 1: more represented exactly who I was at that age, at
Speaker 1: that point in my life, and I find it to
Speaker 1: be such a true representation of what it's like when
Speaker 1: the person that you fit in with because you're on
Speaker 1: the outskirts of everything is no longer someone that you
Speaker 1: can connect to, and how completely rootless that is, and
Speaker 1: during those transitional moments like the summer between high school
Speaker 1: and college being lost and then everyone else seemingly, you know,
Speaker 1: just falling into place and not feeling like you have
Speaker 1: anywhere to go, and your sexuality is like overwhelming, you know.
Speaker 1: She talks about like being so horny and hating everyone
Speaker 1: at the same time, which I think is such a
Speaker 1: like a perfect encapsulation of that particular age where're like,
Speaker 1: fuck you, get away from me, but also fuck me
Speaker 1: because I'm desperate to connect um that she that she
Speaker 1: looks forward in other places, such as like connecting with
Speaker 1: Seymour and you know, trying to trying to you know,
Speaker 1: trying to do things with her, with her art and
Speaker 1: her work and her sketch book. But at the end,
Speaker 1: she doesn't fit in anywhere. She doesn't fit into the
Speaker 1: art world. Uh. The Seymour thing, she realizes was like misguided,
Speaker 1: and she feels gross about she can't go home anymore
Speaker 1: because Maxine is back and she has a you know,
Speaker 1: kind of a strange relationship with her, sort of semi
Speaker 1: cuckold did father to begin with, and we don't know
Speaker 1: what her history was with Maxine, but it was ugly.
Speaker 1: We don't know where a real mom is. And then
Speaker 1: she just stopped connecting to Rebecca. And I've been in
Speaker 1: friendships like that where you have this best girlfriend and
Speaker 1: it's you against the world, and then one day things
Speaker 1: are just different and she wants to like pick tumblers
Speaker 1: at Crate and Barrel and you're like, I am not
Speaker 1: on board. We we used to like we used to
Speaker 1: sit at diners and make fun of everything together. And
Speaker 1: there's such these like there's these like beautiful little hat
Speaker 1: tips to you know, the times that they've spent They
Speaker 1: spent so much time together in high school and all
Speaker 1: of the things that they've been through, And one of
Speaker 1: them is when Enid is doing that like little tag
Speaker 1: sail in her front yard and Rebecca is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I remember this. This is from your little old lady phase.
Speaker 1: And of course Enid like had a phase where she
Speaker 1: was dressing like a little old lady and of course
Speaker 1: Rebecca was there for it. Rebecca has definitely always been
Speaker 1: like the sort of beit a friend. Uh, And it
Speaker 1: is definitely the more colorful of the two. It's definitely
Speaker 1: Enid's story that Rebecca's sort of always been like writing
Speaker 1: sidecar on at a certain point, like they stopped connecting
Speaker 1: or Rebecca realizes that she wants to drive the car,
Speaker 1: and Enid suddenly fits nowhere and she uh, she fulfills
Speaker 1: her fantasy of getting on a bus out of town
Speaker 1: and disappearing because she doesn't know where else to go
Speaker 1: or what else to do. Yeah, And I think those
Speaker 1: are effective themes to explore in terms of like identity
Speaker 1: and where do I belong and who am I? And
Speaker 1: who do I want to be now that I'm freshly
Speaker 1: an adult? And like watching watching them fuck it up,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, you're not ready to be an
Speaker 1: adult because she can't get rid of she can't get
Speaker 1: rid of that toy and the and the whole tag sail.
Speaker 1: She's got ready, she's not ready to move on, but
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to go back either. Yeah, and I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, well, here's where the quiz comes in, because
Speaker 1: I imagine that this is you hinted at this, but
Speaker 1: I imagine this is what more the comic books are,
Speaker 1: like a focus on the friendship between Enid and Rebecca.
Speaker 1: To me, a more interesting movie would have been an
Speaker 1: exploration of that kind of deteriorating friendship. And and you know,
Speaker 1: as you grow up, you grow apart, and you you
Speaker 1: discover your interests and your priorities and if they don't
Speaker 1: align with the person you thought was your best friend,
Speaker 1: like how do you reconcile that? And so sad And
Speaker 1: there's like the last panel and that I mean, you're well,
Speaker 1: first of all, you're gonna love the book because the
Speaker 1: book's just like all that and her just sort of
Speaker 1: seeing Rebecca having moved on and saying, like, you've become
Speaker 1: such a beautiful young woman, and it is heartbreaking, like
Speaker 1: to watch a friendship dissolved like that. Um, it's just
Speaker 1: so specific. That is not what the movie is. And
Speaker 1: I do think that a lot of that has to
Speaker 1: do with casting. I think Scarlett your Hands is incredibly talented.
Speaker 1: I don't think that she really breathed that much life
Speaker 1: into this particular character, and so much of that is
Speaker 1: how it's written and directed, obviously, But you get Steve
Speaker 1: Boo semi attached, You're gonna want to hang out with
Speaker 1: Steve Boo semi And also the chemistry between the two
Speaker 1: of them and that relationship being as weird as it was.
Speaker 1: And also I'm coming from a background where I've had
Speaker 1: relationships like that, where I was very precocious and I
Speaker 1: was hanging out with older men that were really interesting
Speaker 1: to me, even though they were nerds and weird and
Speaker 1: didn't fit in. And they were like, why are you
Speaker 1: interested in me? You're so young, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I just I'm looking for a
Speaker 1: friend at this point in my life because I'm I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out where it belongs. I don't
Speaker 1: feel like I belong anywhere. And part of it is
Speaker 1: tied up in sexuality. But another part of it is
Speaker 1: just because you're reconciling something that's that's gone even though
Speaker 1: you need it so badly, and it's like the breakup
Speaker 1: of your best friend and taking these leaps that you're
Speaker 1: just not ready to take. UM. So the movie, like
Speaker 1: I said, it's completely different. Um, I love both of them,
Speaker 1: but everything I think. I think a lot of what
Speaker 1: you're describing can be like met with the comic book.
Speaker 1: It makes me want to check out the because I
Speaker 1: do have like more interest in their friendship than I
Speaker 1: really do. I mean, even though it's like I I
Speaker 1: totally like understand the dynamic that like exists between Enid
Speaker 1: and Seymour, and it's like if you haven't had a
Speaker 1: friendship like that yourself, you know someone who has, and
Speaker 1: it's very complicated and bizarre and worth exploring. But it's
Speaker 1: just the way it takes over this story. And when
Speaker 1: I was doing some research on the production, I guess
Speaker 1: that the way that the writing was split up was
Speaker 1: that Daniel Klaus's focused on writing the friendship portions, and
Speaker 1: then Terry's Wigoff focused on end and Seymour because Seymour
Speaker 1: was kind of an avatar for him. Where like every
Speaker 1: record that Seymour has is Terry's Wygofs record, and like
Speaker 1: he designed Seymour space because it was kind of a
Speaker 1: projection of himself. Yeah, No, Terry's Wygoff is not like
Speaker 1: putting himself out there being like I can tell other
Speaker 1: people's stories. Like he literally holds up a copy of
Speaker 1: Terry's Wygoffs band the Cheap Suit serendads is that one
Speaker 1: any good? And He's like, no, it's a hilarious joke.
Speaker 1: But you know, he's very it's very clear like who
Speaker 1: he is and what he's connected to. But I didn't
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about splitting up the script. That's
Speaker 1: new to me. Yeah, that's uh So the production as
Speaker 1: I was able to find was I mean, obviously the
Speaker 1: collaborated on the final product, and it wasn't like this
Speaker 1: scene was written by Daniel. This scene was written by Terry.
Speaker 1: But as far as like developing the story, those were
Speaker 1: kind of where their focuses lied where I mean, like
Speaker 1: it sounds like Daniel Claus was kind of continuing to
Speaker 1: develop the book portion and then Terry's wage off was
Speaker 1: um expanding on subplot that kind of ends up taking
Speaker 1: up the bulk of the movie and I do. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think their friendship is really complicated, and I what
Speaker 1: what I some things that like resonated with me that
Speaker 1: I like are are in there, and I kind of
Speaker 1: wish were explored a little more. Were like they Rebecca
Speaker 1: and Nina had have this really really close friendship, but
Speaker 1: you still see those like little resentments that pop up
Speaker 1: in a friendship that close, where there are certain moments
Speaker 1: where like Rebecca is being flirted with by someone and
Speaker 1: Enid gets kind of annoyed and like it's like funk this,
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm I'm not here for this, and like
Speaker 1: there there's some tension that exists between them. With brad
Speaker 1: Renfro's character, like there's little moments where it felt very
Speaker 1: authentic to like a teen friendship where you're like I
Speaker 1: love you and you're my entire life, but like fuck
Speaker 1: this and like you right now right for like this moment,
Speaker 1: I'm so pit Like that stuff is great, and I
Speaker 1: feel like there's there's kind of a tendency sometimes too
Speaker 1: um flatten out friendships like that and be like girl
Speaker 1: friendships are perfect, they have no flaws there. Blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, blah, which is obviously not true, and it
Speaker 1: was cool to see that represented and to see the
Speaker 1: like way you grow apart from people and this like
Speaker 1: really painful, confusing way showed. Yeah. I guess I just
Speaker 1: like I. I guess I just need to read the
Speaker 1: book because that was what I was more interested in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because instead the movie focuses on The movie quickly shifts
Speaker 1: focus to the relationship between Enid and Seymour, which, um,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
Speaker 1: to discuss it and we're back. Uh, should we just
Speaker 1: jump into the Steve Bushey staff yes section of the podcast. Yes.
Speaker 1: Someone pointed this out to us on I figure was
Speaker 1: Twitter that, um so, Julie. We used this metric that
Speaker 1: I made up called the bush Emmy test, which is
Speaker 1: basically just, uh, if you sub in a like traditionally
Speaker 1: Honky guy with Steve bush Emmy, is the interaction normal
Speaker 1: or is it way creepier? For example, in the Notebook Yes,
Speaker 1: when Ryan Gosling is heavily pursuing Rachel McAdams and basically
Speaker 1: threatening to kill himself on a ferris wheel unless she
Speaker 1: goes out with him, sub in Steve Bushemy and if
Speaker 1: and if suddenly it's creepy and someone pointed out to it,
Speaker 1: they're like, I think that Ghost World fails this very
Speaker 1: Steve Bushey related test, and um, I'm in client to
Speaker 1: agree this movie. What do you mean, how does it
Speaker 1: fail that? Well? I think that Steve Bushemy in this
Speaker 1: movie is playing a kind of creepy character at times,
Speaker 1: and that it it yes, reads that way. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah. I mean for me, I don't
Speaker 1: know about everybody else. I take a lot of issue
Speaker 1: with this relationship between Enid and um Steve Bush absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, the last scene is the most humiliating,
Speaker 1: uh retribution that he's like his mother's picking him up
Speaker 1: from therapy and like she's asking him what he wants
Speaker 1: for dinner and rolling his eyes and they shut the door.
Speaker 1: That's humiliating. That character gets come up and said, I frankly, like,
Speaker 1: I I love Seymour and I love boussemmys Seymour. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that like it's okay to like, you know,
Speaker 1: be him and and you know have had sex with Enid.
Speaker 1: But I also like, I don't think he's a I
Speaker 1: don't I don't think he's like a villain by any stretch.
Speaker 1: But I also don't think that the but the movie
Speaker 1: doesn't dodge him being creepy. I think it's like very
Speaker 1: very open about that. Yeah, I guess I I get
Speaker 1: kind of I get kind of lost in how the
Speaker 1: movie where the movie is trying to have you land
Speaker 1: on that, because there are moments where it's obviously like
Speaker 1: Enid fux with a lot of people and manipulates a
Speaker 1: lot of people and makes a ton of mistakes, and
Speaker 1: Seymour is very affected by these manipulative choices she's making.
Speaker 1: But I did feel like the fault fell pretty heavily
Speaker 1: on her of like how dare you be so like
Speaker 1: manipulative towards this sad man as as if like Steve
Speaker 1: Bushemy is not, you know whatever, forty five years old
Speaker 1: in this and can't wait. So you think the movie
Speaker 1: is like cutting him a break for what he's doing.
Speaker 1: I think a little bit to me as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think he's definitely like a sympathetic character.
Speaker 1: Like I think that. I think that like, as an
Speaker 1: audience member, you're definitely like falling in love with Seymour.
Speaker 1: But that's that in my opinion, because I think this
Speaker 1: is enid story, and she's the protagonist and she's the
Speaker 1: person that you're meant to align with. So when she's
Speaker 1: falling in love with Seymour, you're kind of falling in
Speaker 1: love with Seymour and then you fuck him in the
Speaker 1: next day, you're like, what the fund did I do?
Speaker 1: And then you realize, like, oh my god, he is
Speaker 1: so much older and he doesn't have like the same
Speaker 1: frame of reference to me that like sex could be
Speaker 1: something that's like something that is meaningful, and he takes
Speaker 1: it the wrong way and he gets obsessed, which happened,
Speaker 1: and that just was like, what did I fucked up? Um?
Speaker 1: From her point of view, just knowing that, like he's
Speaker 1: a mess and she's she's like I should have known
Speaker 1: that the whole time. But I don't think she's like
Speaker 1: I don't think it's saying that she's doing anything wrong
Speaker 1: and that he's like an innocent, vulnerable person necessarily. I
Speaker 1: guess for me, it's not made clear enough one way
Speaker 1: or the other. My whole thing is the age gap here.
Speaker 1: She is presumably eighteen because she's just graduated, although some
Speaker 1: people are still seventeen when they graduate high school. I
Speaker 1: like turned seventeen or I turned eighteen on the day
Speaker 1: that I graduated. So like, either she's barely out of
Speaker 1: high school, her emotional brain is still developing, and then
Speaker 1: she's befriending this man who is that's all her decisions,
Speaker 1: she's she's a leader of that. That's her choice. Yes,
Speaker 1: but I think that if if you're a forty something,
Speaker 1: you're old man and an eighteen year old young woman
Speaker 1: is trying to befriend you and initiates sex with you,
Speaker 1: you got to run the other way. Well, she she
Speaker 1: finally and she finally does at the very end she does,
Speaker 1: but mostly they're just friends and it's like a little
Speaker 1: even so like I don't know, I think I feel
Speaker 1: like it is kind of on And I guess that
Speaker 1: part of where I really started to like Seymour started
Speaker 1: to lose me was when you see his friends as well,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, this is just a creepy group,
Speaker 1: like this is but he's better than those guys. When
Speaker 1: that when that do yes, because when that that scene
Speaker 1: with his neighbor who like farted and he was like
Speaker 1: thanks for the talk. Uh yeah, No, I think you're
Speaker 1: setting I think you're setting him up to see like
Speaker 1: he's from this world and there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: around him that can suck. But like, I think, with
Speaker 1: the right like people around him, he could be, as
Speaker 1: you say, like different from the others. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think when you're a forty year old man, and
Speaker 1: even though like she's arguably cooler than him, and like,
Speaker 1: it's not absolutely right. And it's not as though he
Speaker 1: has like fame or clout that he's exploiting to sleep
Speaker 1: with her. But to me, like with an age gap
Speaker 1: like that, And it's not even the concept of an
Speaker 1: age gap that I take issue with, Like if he
Speaker 1: were fifty and she were, I would notice, but I
Speaker 1: wouldn't think much of it. It's the fact that she
Speaker 1: is a teenager and her emotional maturity still needs at
Speaker 1: least a few years of development. Like even just looking
Speaker 1: at the way she meets Seymour, she plays this really
Speaker 1: childish and immature prank on him, like that's how they meet,
Speaker 1: and then like yeah, just overall with their current ages
Speaker 1: and that situation, there's an imbalance in that dynamic. There's
Speaker 1: a certain power that comes wouldn't agree more. I think
Speaker 1: that I think the film is totally acknowledges that I yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and like the fact that they don't end
Speaker 1: up together is is better not together. He's he's punished,
Speaker 1: she gets on a death bus maybe who knows what.
Speaker 1: She's not dead, she's not dead. Sheaves town. Yeah, she's disappearing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just, I really, I guess. I just I feel
Speaker 1: as though the movie doesn't challenge this relationship enough. I
Speaker 1: think that. And I think that of the reason that
Speaker 1: that may be is because the character that like we're
Speaker 1: talking about is a standard for the person making the movie.
Speaker 1: So that maybe one of the reasons that I think
Speaker 1: that Unit is the protagonist. I think that the creators
Speaker 1: aligned with enit for sure. I mean, and it's definitely
Speaker 1: the protagonist. Even so it's I don't know, I still
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, even though Unit is the protagony this,
Speaker 1: I just the amount of sympathy that the movie dishes
Speaker 1: out for Seymour was like, but you don't like Seymour
Speaker 1: at all? I do? I do. The thing is like,
Speaker 1: I don't dislike Seymour. I I appreciate the way he's painted.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that it's made clear that he is an
Speaker 1: insecure guy. He feels like he's at a dead end
Speaker 1: in life. He doesn't have a lot of like trying
Speaker 1: to fuck her, like he like that's I think he's
Speaker 1: just like, okay, you're like my friend now, but what
Speaker 1: the hell would she like? It doesn't even occur to him,
Speaker 1: like what would you even want with me? I guess
Speaker 1: that just wasn't my reader it. I I believe that
Speaker 1: they are friends and they have a connection that is
Speaker 1: not explicitly sexual. But I do feel like, like Caitlin,
Speaker 1: like you were saying that it's like him as someone
Speaker 1: who's you know whatever two and a half times or age,
Speaker 1: it's on him to make a clear to not be
Speaker 1: friends with her, Yeah, to not engage it. So he
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been friends with her, really, I think so,
Speaker 1: all right, he's been working at Cook's Chicken for longer
Speaker 1: than she's been alive, Like yeah, but they have something
Speaker 1: in common and they're both incredibly lonely. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had friendships with people that were much
Speaker 1: older than me at that age, and I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like they were sexually predatory. I felt like I was
Speaker 1: so desperate for connection that I was and and this
Speaker 1: is before the internet. I was looking for people that,
Speaker 1: like I could talk to about anything because I just
Speaker 1: hated everyone so much and the people around me just
Speaker 1: couldn't connect to um, and I wanted to find some
Speaker 1: version of someone that maybe I could one day be.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't have an issue with them being
Speaker 1: friends per se, Like I I think that, but where
Speaker 1: the story lands, Like That's why I was so frustrated
Speaker 1: when he does say, Okay, let's have sex. Let's do this,
Speaker 1: because he never really like he resists the whole time,
Speaker 1: like he's like everything she does that's sexual embarrasses him,
Speaker 1: like putting on the mask and that like X rated,
Speaker 1: like video shop and like. But then he still has
Speaker 1: sex with her and says he'll drop everything to you know,
Speaker 1: marry her. So it's like that's because he loses his mind,
Speaker 1: that he loses his mind. So she comes over and
Speaker 1: she's like, have sex with me, and then the next
Speaker 1: morning he like loses his mind. Because I also get
Speaker 1: the sense that Seymour hasn't had sex for like thirty years.
Speaker 1: Well I just I yeah, I guess that if it
Speaker 1: was explicitly like a friendship between an older person and
Speaker 1: a younger person, that you there wasn't a trace of
Speaker 1: sex to be found. I mean, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: older people can't be friends with younger people, like I've
Speaker 1: had older friends when I was a teenager to like,
Speaker 1: that's all good, right, But but the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: for a lot of the movie, I was like, what
Speaker 1: is this friendship? And I was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what is this friendship? And then where it goes, I
Speaker 1: feel like speaks to the fact that there was something
Speaker 1: vaguely sexual about it the whole time, because that's how
Speaker 1: it pays off. And then all of a sudden he's
Speaker 1: going to drop everything to stay. He loses his mind.
Speaker 1: He but he loses his mind. He pays the price
Speaker 1: for it, for sure. I do. Yeah, But Jamie, I
Speaker 1: think you're like there's always some like sexual undercurrent with
Speaker 1: just with the fact that she's like, I'm gonna help
Speaker 1: you find a girlfriend. Yeah, bring me to this sex shop.
Speaker 1: No one is, like I wanted to go forever and
Speaker 1: no one's been able to take me. Which does that
Speaker 1: imply that she's not old enough to go into a
Speaker 1: sex shop, Like, I don't know, when you were a teenager,
Speaker 1: didn't you want to go into those sex shops and
Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, I can't believe this dildo
Speaker 1: and like laugh about it with your friend. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: that's kind of why. Again, I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: wish that there was more Enid and Rebecca because Rebecca
Speaker 1: is so frustrated when like Rebecca's like, wait, you went
Speaker 1: without me, and it's like, yeah, well I used to
Speaker 1: try to do that ship together. Yeah, and they're not connecting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's something that I totally did with my friends and
Speaker 1: like totally but it's like Steve, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: it's on. It's again. It's like Seymour is the adult
Speaker 1: in this situation and he doesn't have to be the
Speaker 1: guy that's like, oh no, this is so awkward for me,
Speaker 1: but I guess I'll go in. It's like he has
Speaker 1: to be the one to draw the boundary, I guess,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't have the ability to do it. I understand.
Speaker 1: I've seen like uh and that this is not an excuse,
Speaker 1: but like I've seen so much worse. But like it's
Speaker 1: the power. The power balance between the two of them
Speaker 1: is way more fluid than it is in something like Manhattan. Sure,
Speaker 1: and she's definitely like the higher status partner the whole time,
Speaker 1: and I do and I and I don't want to
Speaker 1: sound like shitty, but like she I think she definitely
Speaker 1: comes over and like kisses him, like I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: say like seduces him as much as she decides when
Speaker 1: she goes over there, I'm going to kiss him. I'm
Speaker 1: going to like, I want to make out with Seymour.
Speaker 1: That's to me. There's no question that she shows up
Speaker 1: and that's where she is at. And I don't think
Speaker 1: he would have ever initiated that with her. I really
Speaker 1: don't sure she does. UM initiate basically every aspect of
Speaker 1: their relationship. Um. Even so, just the whole the the imbalance,
Speaker 1: even though it's not necessarily that exploitative, arguably on his
Speaker 1: and there's still a just you know, the experience and
Speaker 1: the wisdom and the perceptions you gain along the way
Speaker 1: of being older. And he has that and she doesn't.
Speaker 1: And there's no substitute. She can't read a book or
Speaker 1: you know, listen to a record and then suddenly be
Speaker 1: wiser like she had like she he has. They hadn't fucked.
Speaker 1: Would you be fine with it? I would be better
Speaker 1: with it, um. But the fact that they end up
Speaker 1: having sex. It's like just Enid not knowing that it's
Speaker 1: a bad idea to pursue this man as a potential
Speaker 1: romantic partner that's like twenty plus years older than her
Speaker 1: when she is again just freshly graduated from high school.
Speaker 1: Like that is proof that she doesn't have the wisdom
Speaker 1: and experience and emotional maturity that she would need to
Speaker 1: be his equal. And why doesn't seemore think it's a
Speaker 1: bad idea to be hanging out with a teenager well
Speaker 1: lonely and wants to feel cool and all this stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: and she's also very persistent, like it's very clear that
Speaker 1: she won't leave him alone. But I don't know when
Speaker 1: anytime she was like take me to the sex shop.
Speaker 1: Let's girlfriend, Let's get you a girlfriend, Let's get you.
Speaker 1: And he should have been like this is inappropriate. We
Speaker 1: need to draw a boundary here, and the fact that
Speaker 1: it just Seymour should have also drawn that boundary, like
Speaker 1: before he moved in with his mom again, Like I
Speaker 1: mean I did, I did. Like that they show at
Speaker 1: the end that he like realizes that you know, he
Speaker 1: had cross the line, he had reached this low point
Speaker 1: and at least responds to that by being like, I
Speaker 1: have to get help, I need to make changes in
Speaker 1: my life like that. Yeah, that never happens in movies.
Speaker 1: And seeing a man in therapy and a movie is incredible,
Speaker 1: Like you don't see it a lot. Yeah, but that
Speaker 1: stuff with the mom and the therapist is really mean,
Speaker 1: Like I think it's really cruel. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean she's just there to like pick him up from
Speaker 1: this therapy appointment, and maybe she has some boundary issues,
Speaker 1: but like I didn't that none of that struck me
Speaker 1: as like being that cruel. I guess Rebecca is the
Speaker 1: only person in the movie that doesn't have boundary issues.
Speaker 1: She's she's very clear with her boundaries, even with Enid,
Speaker 1: where she's just like are we doing this or are
Speaker 1: we not? And like stop being a flake. And if
Speaker 1: you're going to keep being a flake, I can't be
Speaker 1: in this friendship anymore. Right, Yeah, she's a grown up
Speaker 1: in that way. She's Yeah, she's I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: we don't really know that much about her life and
Speaker 1: we don't really know like what the reasons may be
Speaker 1: for why she is growing up and maturing very differently
Speaker 1: than her friend. Um, but she's she's the only person
Speaker 1: in the movie with boundaries. I don't know. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: that friendship felt very I mean, it's definitely strange and
Speaker 1: that you know, not none of us are calling that
Speaker 1: into question. I just feel like Steve Bushemi's character is
Speaker 1: lent even though he doesn't have a happy ending per se.
Speaker 1: I feel like, because I don't know that, the amount
Speaker 1: of sympathy that the movie extended to him, I thought was, uh, strange.
Speaker 1: Everyone has an unhappy ending, scept maybe Rebecca. We don't
Speaker 1: really know. Yeah, she goes and buy, she goes to Ikea,
Speaker 1: she buys her plastic cups. She she's working at Starbucks,
Speaker 1: which brings me to, you know, just a few things
Speaker 1: that we have to call out in terms of language
Speaker 1: that gets used, comments that get made that are super reductive.
Speaker 1: I mean, the the R word gets said several times
Speaker 1: throughout the movie. Very two thousand one, Very two thousand one.
Speaker 1: You've got your Rebecca saying that a man in the
Speaker 1: wheelchair doesn't even need that wheel chair, that he's totally
Speaker 1: just lazy, you know, like making accusations like that. There's
Speaker 1: some weird there's like a yeah, they're definitely not the
Speaker 1: so just you know, very of the time. I mean,
Speaker 1: who was a woke team in two thousand one? Yeah? Uh?
Speaker 1: Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Um? I want
Speaker 1: you guys to ask me more questions because I think
Speaker 1: I've such a different like notion of this, but I
Speaker 1: don't know where to do it. Um, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Well, what are your thoughts on it? Like,
Speaker 1: what are your feelings? I love it. I think it's
Speaker 1: an amazing movie. Like I relate to it so powerfully
Speaker 1: as a as a human woman. Like I think that
Speaker 1: like Enid is like one of the best characters of
Speaker 1: all time. I've like, there have been so few times
Speaker 1: when I've seen myself on screen the way that I
Speaker 1: see myself with Enid. And I remember, like even my
Speaker 1: mom when that came out, was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like that was what you were coming from, Like there
Speaker 1: was just something. So I just I think that Enid
Speaker 1: is such a three dimensional character. I think her, like
Speaker 1: I totally get her all the stuff that you were
Speaker 1: saying about them not being woke, Like that's her trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what funny is and like trying to
Speaker 1: be shocking and like and then and then like you know,
Speaker 1: kind of pressing the boundaries of it. And then she
Speaker 1: meets with that like Pat Healy character who's like in
Speaker 1: the subculture, but he's a piece of ship because he's
Speaker 1: got all those ti Semitic jokes, and she's like, oh wait, no,
Speaker 1: funk that guy. That guy sucks. I'm not that guy.
Speaker 1: And she's kind of like dipping her toe into different subcultures.
Speaker 1: And in my that and my that, they live in
Speaker 1: the suburbs, they live in hell. You know. They like
Speaker 1: they decide like one day to like follow the Satanist
Speaker 1: couple and like that's a day um or or just
Speaker 1: like you know that they're wat they're googn on that
Speaker 1: stand up comedian and they're like, instead of like that's
Speaker 1: a loser, they're like, we should marry him. Like they're like,
Speaker 1: he sucks. I want to fuck him. That that ship.
Speaker 1: There's so much specificity to that that I've never seen before.
Speaker 1: And um, it's just like I just think it speaks
Speaker 1: so uh. It's like as clear as a bell to
Speaker 1: like mentally, where you are when you are stuck and
Speaker 1: you are trapped and your best you and your best
Speaker 1: friend are going through ship and you don't know what
Speaker 1: to do I just I've just never seen a character
Speaker 1: like that that I've connected with on that level, especially
Speaker 1: because so many teen movies of that era, especially like
Speaker 1: the late nineties, but even into the you know, early
Speaker 1: and mid two thousand's, they were these stories that are
Speaker 1: usually about like a teen girl having some kind of
Speaker 1: like sex bet against her or a prom like oh,
Speaker 1: I bet you can't turn this girl into a prom queen,
Speaker 1: or you know, some other horribly manipulative thing that often
Speaker 1: would strip any agency away from the female character the
Speaker 1: teen girls. So the fact that this story does give
Speaker 1: these characters a lot of agency, does explore their interior
Speaker 1: lives more than a lot of other teen movies were doing.
Speaker 1: And this movie, these characters subvert some of that stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like that they're they're like given given the space
Speaker 1: and like agency to like make mistakes, which they do constantly,
Speaker 1: which is what teenagers do constantly. I like that, like
Speaker 1: one of them has to get a job. You never
Speaker 1: see that in a teen movie, where usually it's just
Speaker 1: like yeah, there. It's it's a lot easier to put
Speaker 1: a teen movie in an affluent neighborhood so that the
Speaker 1: plot can just happen and no one has to go
Speaker 1: do something to survive. Like, there are aspects of this
Speaker 1: movie that I'm like, you know, it's it's way more
Speaker 1: than you're getting from teen movies at this time, specifically,
Speaker 1: and as I think a bigger it's bigger than a
Speaker 1: teen movie. The blues hammer scene is super funny that
Speaker 1: I liked that. Yeah, sure, I just mean like teen
Speaker 1: movies and it revolves around teenagers. And I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say also that, like I think it subverts the
Speaker 1: Bechtel stuff because when Seymour is like, oh, she's in
Speaker 1: love with Josh, it's like ENA's head could not be
Speaker 1: further away from Josh. Like even the even the fact
Speaker 1: that like Rebecca may or may not be like dating,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Like ENA's not thinking about Josh En.
Speaker 1: It's thinking about like what the fund is she gonna do?
Speaker 1: Who the fund is? She doesn't have her art scholarship.
Speaker 1: She like doesn't know, you know, where her place in
Speaker 1: the world is. She has one friend that it's Seymour.
Speaker 1: She's like she talks about being horny as hell and
Speaker 1: like not knowing where to put it, and she wants
Speaker 1: to make this like mistake and then she doesn't know
Speaker 1: what else to do. But the in other words, the
Speaker 1: idea that like those two were you know, and you
Speaker 1: mentioned before about the two of them talking about josh En.
Speaker 1: It's not jealous because Rebecca's hanging out with josh En.
Speaker 1: It's jealous of Josh like she wants to hang out
Speaker 1: with Rebecca. Seymour is obviously more important. And I love
Speaker 1: that line when Rebecca is just like, I'm so sick
Speaker 1: of Seymour because he is getting in the way and
Speaker 1: she is seeing her friend disappear. But also like I
Speaker 1: feel like en has always been like that and Rebecca
Speaker 1: has changed, but that's because the movie aligns you with
Speaker 1: Enid to see from Enid's point of view, that's like,
Speaker 1: oh you've changed, you both changed, but the situation has changed.
Speaker 1: And to have to figure out what to do with
Speaker 1: that when the world is like hell and you're trying
Speaker 1: to choose between like oh, like there's this like weird
Speaker 1: old guy and I do there's so many things in
Speaker 1: that where they're just like so beautifully stated, where he's
Speaker 1: like do you like him? Is he a nerds? Like? Well,
Speaker 1: he is sort of like the exact opposite of everything
Speaker 1: I hate, you know, just his like I do hate Sports,
Speaker 1: and then him in traffic I have some more kids,
Speaker 1: why don't you. Yeah, I don't know, like I've just
Speaker 1: I've never I've never really like seen myself quite so
Speaker 1: vividly on screen as I have in this, especially like
Speaker 1: from that I guess point in my life. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: also like the kind of there's almost this idea of
Speaker 1: like the inevitability of selling out is something, at least
Speaker 1: for some of the characters, where like, you know, we
Speaker 1: have yeah growing up, right, growing up means to sell
Speaker 1: out because you have to have a job to support yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But like there's that one character who she's i think
Speaker 1: buying VHS tapes from or something, and he's really awful
Speaker 1: to her, and then he says something like, oh, you
Speaker 1: want to like take down society, go to business school
Speaker 1: and you know, work with a job at a corporation
Speaker 1: and take them down from the inside. That's what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do. And like that's like that mentality of just
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, participate in capitalism to the fullest extent,
Speaker 1: and that's how we're going to get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Oh Yeah, it's just like so many different shades of
Speaker 1: nightmare around her, Like you could be this nightmare person,
Speaker 1: you could be this horror show. So yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, I'm so I like that, I'm
Speaker 1: I guess I kind of appreciate that I'm conflicted about
Speaker 1: certain aspects of of Enid and of Rebecca because it's
Speaker 1: like I respect the hell out of Enid's like commitment
Speaker 1: to being like I'm not going to participate in all
Speaker 1: of this bullshit, and also that the movie pretty clearly
Speaker 1: illustrates like, well, then you're just going to be pretty
Speaker 1: lost if you're if you're not willing to have a job,
Speaker 1: if you're not willing to put in an effort, and
Speaker 1: if your disillusion with everything, you're left with very few
Speaker 1: options of how to live your left fucked, you're broken,
Speaker 1: You're you're alone, and you're also funcked if you do participate,
Speaker 1: which is what we see through Rebecca of like she's
Speaker 1: playing the game, but she's not totally happy. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know if she's fucked as much as he's just
Speaker 1: kind of grown up in a specific way that A
Speaker 1: it hasn't you know, that's where she's like, you've changed.
Speaker 1: It's it's just that Rebecca can like move forward and
Speaker 1: needed can in that particular way. She's a different kind
Speaker 1: of person. They're just different kinds of people. They met
Speaker 1: each other's needs for the time that they were together,
Speaker 1: but it's time to move on, and it's just heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking, and I just again, I just wish that
Speaker 1: the story was more about their characters and their friends
Speaker 1: who love the book. Yeah, so exciting. I'm serious, I'm serious.
Speaker 1: It is one of my favorite I I just love
Speaker 1: these characters so much. I love the book, I love
Speaker 1: the movie, and thora Birch is so great. She's awesome,
Speaker 1: she's amazing, and she's a teenager playing a teenager, which
Speaker 1: never happened. Then, Like, there is not a shred of
Speaker 1: inauthenticity to anything she does in that movie, even just
Speaker 1: the way she carries her body, the way she like
Speaker 1: tries to figure out, like this my look now, like
Speaker 1: the green hair, and then someone insults her for the
Speaker 1: green hair, so then she does I And those moments too,
Speaker 1: were her whole, like her whole thing that she'll tell
Speaker 1: you is like I don't care about fitting in like
Speaker 1: funck this blah blah blah, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
Speaker 1: But then she is very insecure and very sensitive because teenage, like,
Speaker 1: it's like she's she doesn't know who she is. She
Speaker 1: wants to be accepted somewhere, but if there is pushbacks
Speaker 1: on trying, Yeah, she's absolutely trying to find a soul
Speaker 1: mate because she lost so much with Rebecca and Seymour
Speaker 1: is the closest thing. But it can't work. Can't work,
Speaker 1: can't work, doesn't work, can't work. So I was interested
Speaker 1: in because this is like such a cult classic of like,
Speaker 1: were there any other endings? Was their studio interference? What
Speaker 1: was the whole situation there? And there was a fair amount.
Speaker 1: So part of what I found out is that, yes,
Speaker 1: why Goff was focused on developing the Seymour and Enid
Speaker 1: storyline where Cloud's focused on the Enid and Rebecca storylined.
Speaker 1: But I also found out a lot. I guess part
Speaker 1: of the reason that ends up not being in the
Speaker 1: final script as much is because uh Thora Birch was
Speaker 1: I guess legally an adult when they were shooting it,
Speaker 1: and Scarlett Johansen was only fifteen, so she's only fifteen
Speaker 1: when this movie is shot, so she, like WHOA, couldn't
Speaker 1: physically be there as much, so they had to plan
Speaker 1: around the fact, like I guess her storyline got pared
Speaker 1: down partially just logistically, like kids can only be on
Speaker 1: set for a certain amount of time of day. So
Speaker 1: that's wild that they would cast an even younger because
Speaker 1: normally they're casting, you know, twenty nine year olds to
Speaker 1: play eighteen year olds. That's wild that they cast someone
Speaker 1: a few years younger than the character's age. Okay, um.
Speaker 1: And in one version of the ending, Zwagov had Seymour
Speaker 1: died by suicide at the end of the movie, but
Speaker 1: that got written out as well, and then the studio
Speaker 1: This one made me laugh that that was like, there
Speaker 1: has to be a ridiculous studio suggestion, And the studio
Speaker 1: suggestion was that the movie ends in a double wedding
Speaker 1: where Enid Mary Seymour and Rebecca Mary's Josh, which I
Speaker 1: think was pitch. That was a studio pitch, and then
Speaker 1: they were just like absolutely not, which good Chris. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that did make me appreciate at least that, like,
Speaker 1: I mean, this was not an easy movie to make.
Speaker 1: It took a long time to get produced, and no
Speaker 1: one ends happy, which is obviously, like I mean, a
Speaker 1: really unusual thing to be able to get past a
Speaker 1: studio Anyways, it's like all these people are deeply flawed
Speaker 1: and kind of sunk in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 1: no one ends up particularly happy, which is just, you know,
Speaker 1: uncomfortably close to what real life is like. Um so
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. And the double wedding ending suggestion is
Speaker 1: very funny to me, because what what a typical studio note?
Speaker 1: What right now? They're like, what if they all just
Speaker 1: got married at the end. There's a studio ever known
Speaker 1: what's good for a story, or ever known what an
Speaker 1: audience actually wants. Like I feel like, Noah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I want to mention that I disagree with you about
Speaker 1: the ROBERTA the Art Teacher character. Um I think that
Speaker 1: like as a comic actress, like that's like Mana from Heaven,
Speaker 1: like Ileana Douglas had so much to do. That character
Speaker 1: is so funny when she shows that short film Mirror Father,
Speaker 1: and then at the end, if you watch the credits,
Speaker 1: like her parents are like the producers and like it
Speaker 1: keeps repeating like her last name. It's like special thanks
Speaker 1: to like produced, and it's like so clear that like
Speaker 1: her parents funded it and she's not just like they're
Speaker 1: not just taking pot shots at the Tampa and a
Speaker 1: teacup thing, like they make fun of that that guy
Speaker 1: like with the who had the like clearly like serial killer.
Speaker 1: That's like and then it's like and there's that scene
Speaker 1: that ends with like I know that this is Philips
Speaker 1: or whatever it is short, So like, yeah, there's definitely
Speaker 1: like a lot of comedy and like those art school
Speaker 1: scenes that I think are like beyond you know, just
Speaker 1: like goofing on feminist. Sure, a lot of basically all
Speaker 1: the art gets made fun of. Um also just shout
Speaker 1: out to mirror father mir which I'm sure is a
Speaker 1: feminist text um over. Sure. Yeah, I mean that's that
Speaker 1: those I mean those points about like rich art kid
Speaker 1: nepotism ship, Like I love that ship. That's like I
Speaker 1: wish they was it was more focused on that. And
Speaker 1: Aleana Douglas does an amazing job in that role. I
Speaker 1: don't know, there's just some certain points of it. I'm
Speaker 1: just like why you know why that aspect um? Well,
Speaker 1: that brings us to a conversation with a friend of
Speaker 1: the cast past guest on our Space Jam episode brilliant writer,
Speaker 1: all around terrific person, Princess Weeks. Hello, Hi guys, Hi guys,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on again. Welcome backs. So
Speaker 1: we wanted to hear your thoughts kind of just general
Speaker 1: thoughts overall about the movie, but to start just kind
Speaker 1: of focusing specifically on how you felt the movie handled
Speaker 1: race so terribly. Um, I just I found it was
Speaker 1: so weird because I literally wrote in my notes the
Speaker 1: coon's chicken thing is weird af because it feels so
Speaker 1: arbitrarily put in there to just give sort of like
Speaker 1: a third act conflict to the story, and not something
Speaker 1: that felt very organically put in, especially because the cast
Speaker 1: itself is so white that it's like there is no
Speaker 1: black opinion except for that one girl who's like it's
Speaker 1: not cool, you know, at and during the during the
Speaker 1: art presentation, and it just feels so ignorant. And there's
Speaker 1: a larger conversation that could be had about that, because
Speaker 1: I know, just recently we had a conversation about like
Speaker 1: Aunt Jemima. I know, like in Lovecraft Country, which is
Speaker 1: airing right now. Even in the first episode, you see
Speaker 1: the Aunt Jemima poster in just the position to a
Speaker 1: bunch of like white it's mocking black people. So there
Speaker 1: is like a very big history of like racist character
Speaker 1: ritures in the way that that you know, um, the
Speaker 1: United States, Canada, UK have done food products, but like,
Speaker 1: Eden is not a character who who cares about that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff exactly. She's not even like a Daria type,
Speaker 1: because I know people have compared like this to Daria,
Speaker 1: but Daria would actually care. Daria would at least she
Speaker 1: would read she has the pretensive care she's like, or
Speaker 1: would at least act Jody to be like, Hey, Jody,
Speaker 1: do you want to like tag team on this. This
Speaker 1: just seems like Ena trying to get out of doing
Speaker 1: a project, which is weird because she already is an artist,
Speaker 1: so I don't really know why she needs to like
Speaker 1: literally be like I found this art and put it
Speaker 1: in an art show. It's it's so arbitrary, it's so weird,
Speaker 1: it's clumsy, and it only serves to put Steve Bushmi's
Speaker 1: character Seymour and Eat it in a position of conflict
Speaker 1: for like five minutes. It's really useless. Yeah, because it's
Speaker 1: like you said, Enid is this white woman who, as
Speaker 1: far as we know, doesn't seem to care about racial
Speaker 1: injustice or racism. She just finds this image and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this will actually help me get a leg up in
Speaker 1: my art class because she basically brings it in because
Speaker 1: her teacher has been saying you need to be more
Speaker 1: provocative and political with your art, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: well that this might do that. And she goes like
Speaker 1: full like Richard Prince and she's like, you didn't do anything.
Speaker 1: This is someone else's work. But does it make you
Speaker 1: feel like it's just And it's so weird because it's
Speaker 1: like they established her getting called, you know, anti semitic slurs,
Speaker 1: so it's like, why wouldn't that connect to it or
Speaker 1: why wouldn't she have anything else to pull from it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it feels like she brings it in just to
Speaker 1: like show up that other girl in her class who's
Speaker 1: been bringing in all that provocative art. And it's just
Speaker 1: like so you're just just like no real conversation, like
Speaker 1: no it. I guess watching certain scenes back, you're just like,
Speaker 1: I does the movie think. She's like it seems like
Speaker 1: the movie generally comes down on her side of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what, this was a cool thing to have done,
Speaker 1: and the art because the art teacher has already been
Speaker 1: set up as like this cartoon and has already been
Speaker 1: set up. It's like, this is not someone you need
Speaker 1: to take seriously her approval, and like, I don't, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's just it it's such a mess in
Speaker 1: the way that it's presented, and Princess, like you were saying,
Speaker 1: there's no there's no black character in this movie. Who
Speaker 1: isn't an unnamed student or an unnamed parent to like
Speaker 1: provide any sort of comment on this that would be relevant.
Speaker 1: Like it's just so bizarre. I don't know. Sometimes you
Speaker 1: watch a movie and you're like, this is two thousand's
Speaker 1: and like, you know, I was like, oh, first four
Speaker 1: minutes we getting our word, we get some casual able
Speaker 1: ism and how we frame rings, you know, Like just
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like it's just so hard
Speaker 1: because she's always saying these weird homophobic things, like when
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, yeah, we're gonna have to get checked
Speaker 1: for AIDS after he this girl gets date raped, and
Speaker 1: just like what is this for? And it feels so
Speaker 1: of that era, you know what. This This movie made
Speaker 1: me think of two movies that I felt like, Book
Speaker 1: Smart and Jennifer's Body, because book Smart, I think is
Speaker 1: very much like the like great, great, great grand aunt
Speaker 1: of like like you know, the centate of this kind
Speaker 1: of film because it's like two women who are like
Speaker 1: not popular but still interact. But I think book smart
Speaker 1: again because it's you know, written by women, I believe
Speaker 1: directed by a woman. It's like you get more of
Speaker 1: this intimacy of like a friendship. Like when it comes
Speaker 1: down to it, eat, it spends more time with Steve
Speaker 1: Bushemy than she does with Rebecca, so I really have
Speaker 1: no context for why they're friends. Besides, they're both just
Speaker 1: mean and that doesn't that's not a personality. And it's
Speaker 1: like with Jennifer's body, you know it again written direct
Speaker 1: by women. Not a perfect film in terms of like
Speaker 1: the dialogue. All the dialogue is very dated, but you
Speaker 1: get like a very intimate look at the friendship and
Speaker 1: tension between these two girls going into these different transitions
Speaker 1: in their life. Like there's just they're just not enough
Speaker 1: time spent with these two young girls transitioning to this
Speaker 1: new phase of life for me to feel like this
Speaker 1: is like really about them. Like I did not realize
Speaker 1: how much Steve buy was going to be in this
Speaker 1: movie because like all you ever see is like Scarlet
Speaker 1: Johansson and Enid, and I'm just like, but it's not
Speaker 1: about them, And I found that to be really disappointing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I was curious about your feelings on that
Speaker 1: friendship too, because we have had i mean, like a
Speaker 1: lot of discussion about that as well of uh, like
Speaker 1: I you know, when I was younger, I definitely had
Speaker 1: friends with older people, but it was I don't know,
Speaker 1: just the gray areas of that relationship did There's endless discussion,
Speaker 1: But I was curious on what you're what your take
Speaker 1: on that was. It's like I have like two brains
Speaker 1: about it, Like I have like honestly like my my
Speaker 1: my feminist brain, and then I have like my just
Speaker 1: storytelling brain, and like as a storytelling device. I think
Speaker 1: that it's handled in a way that I think is
Speaker 1: as respectful as it can be for something so like
Speaker 1: odd like I think that they do a good job
Speaker 1: of not having Seymour be predatory, and like how he
Speaker 1: treats Enid. I feel like, for the most part throughout
Speaker 1: their relationship, he's very respectful of Enid, like and even
Speaker 1: and even with Dana when he's like stopped hanging out
Speaker 1: with it, I'm like he's doing a lot of the
Speaker 1: right things, but my feminist brain has a problem with
Speaker 1: it because then it's putting all of the autonomy of
Speaker 1: instigating the sexual relationship on Enid, who is like eighteen
Speaker 1: max because she just graduated high school, who is like drinking,
Speaker 1: who is like I feel like there's like it's Steve
Speaker 1: Bushemi's character who should be getting these boundaries, Like when
Speaker 1: Dana comes in and it's like, why are you friends
Speaker 1: with someone this young? It's a legitimate question, you know,
Speaker 1: like why are you friends with someone this young? And
Speaker 1: like I can't, Like I've had relationships with much older men,
Speaker 1: and like, do I think that all of them were correct? No,
Speaker 1: And I think that it's one of those things where
Speaker 1: if it was like this wasn't that she did and
Speaker 1: we had more time to even spend with her being
Speaker 1: like I regret it. I rushed into this thinking that
Speaker 1: I was being empowered, but I really wasn't, because I
Speaker 1: I'm just with him because I need to feel something
Speaker 1: with somebody that would be interesting. But instead, because Steve
Speaker 1: Bushemy like gets fired and he's sad about it, it
Speaker 1: becomes all about her having to go and say, like
Speaker 1: I think that you're great you're my hero, and I'm like, girl,
Speaker 1: what I just it becomes all about her uplifting him
Speaker 1: and like making him feel better. That like even the
Speaker 1: things that could be interesting about exploring this relationship between
Speaker 1: them is really Emma did because it's all about him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it is like a very bizarre treatment of the
Speaker 1: I don't know, like we we sort of discussed kind
Speaker 1: of the mindset you're talking about, like being both minds
Speaker 1: about it, Like it doesn't make I don't know, I
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. This movie is difficult,
Speaker 1: and I think also, like he said, like it's not
Speaker 1: there are so many things in the movie where I'm like,
Speaker 1: if we could just spend more time with Enid in
Speaker 1: this moment, it would be so much more meaningful. I think,
Speaker 1: like she spends all this time trying to get see
Speaker 1: Moore a date, which girl, why I don't understand, and
Speaker 1: then like he does with someone who she doesn't approve of,
Speaker 1: and then instantly she's like jealous, but she doesn't do
Speaker 1: what does it have the default to you having sex
Speaker 1: with a much older man? Like why why does it
Speaker 1: have Why can't you just just go on that bus
Speaker 1: without having to cross that line or maybe even do
Speaker 1: it just be a kiss? Why does it have to
Speaker 1: be sex? You know, like why does it have to
Speaker 1: be that thing? Which like and have it be her
Speaker 1: who's like not even discussed it, just like, oh, I
Speaker 1: rushed into this, and he's like, so you're going to
Speaker 1: move in with me? And and it frames him to
Speaker 1: be the victim and so much of that. And I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that he's a villain, but I am saying
Speaker 1: that he is old enough to have better judgment about
Speaker 1: what this relationship is, you know, like even if they
Speaker 1: are going to have sex, I think he really genuinely
Speaker 1: believes that she's going to move in with him or
Speaker 1: that he's going to break up with his like appropriate
Speaker 1: girl friend to be like you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just like you do. Just I'm like, I do
Speaker 1: wish that she had someone in allowed to talk to
Speaker 1: who wasn't Steve Bushemy in this moment. And then the
Speaker 1: Steve Busheny character, I don't know, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: a lot of even like the details around Steve Bushey's
Speaker 1: character where you know, Seymour is like, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think an aggressively bad person, but he he gets
Speaker 1: away with a lot, including kind of ending up with
Speaker 1: this victim narrative when he is friends with a teenage
Speaker 1: girl and knee to be the adult in this situation,
Speaker 1: and then in the same way when he is like,
Speaker 1: I don't know just the way that he is, like
Speaker 1: he has this racist art at his house, he loves
Speaker 1: black music and and is like hanging out with all
Speaker 1: his old guy white friends, and there's there's no self
Speaker 1: awareness around that. There's no real accountability applied to him
Speaker 1: in terms of like, well, if you know you're working
Speaker 1: for such a racist company, why you know why? And
Speaker 1: that that was another thing that it seems like the
Speaker 1: movie might try to like attempt to address, probably not well,
Speaker 1: but attempt, but then it's just kind of dropped of, like, well,
Speaker 1: he just has this. He just has this, and it's
Speaker 1: just the thing he has, right. And it's the same
Speaker 1: thing with like when Enid brings the art in and
Speaker 1: she's trying to justify why she thinks it's this like
Speaker 1: profound piece of art, and she really stumbles through her
Speaker 1: answer and gives what's essentially a non answer, but her
Speaker 1: art tea, her white art teacher, is like, this is remarkable,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, is the intent of this movie
Speaker 1: to show how cavalier white people tend to be about racism?
Speaker 1: But I'm like, if that is the intention, it's again
Speaker 1: it's so poorly handled because we're only seeing this through
Speaker 1: white character's perspectives. Like the couple black characters you see
Speaker 1: who are like protesting at the little gallery show, or
Speaker 1: like the character who is credited as black student in
Speaker 1: the art classroom is just like, hey, that it's not right,
Speaker 1: and that's the only perspective you get on it from
Speaker 1: any black people. And it's just like so much of
Speaker 1: this stuff that we're talking about apparently is not what
Speaker 1: the graphic novel includes. No, there's not a lot of Steve. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's not in it a lot. It is much more
Speaker 1: about Enid and Rebecca's friendship. So things that make you
Speaker 1: go home to quote m Z is like, why is
Speaker 1: it when you made this movie about these two teenage
Speaker 1: girls going through this you know, transitional space, did it
Speaker 1: all of a sudden have to have like a male
Speaker 1: character have such a giant role in this film, Like
Speaker 1: that's that's us to me? Like, and after reading that,
Speaker 1: I was like even more disappointed because you can tell
Speaker 1: at the beginning that they're supposed to be these elements
Speaker 1: of like how close they are together. Like from what
Speaker 1: I've read, there's definitely more discussion about them being perceived
Speaker 1: as queer together, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's definitely there.
Speaker 1: They don't explore it at all. Rebecca is barely there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's barely there. And they're supposed to be this whole
Speaker 1: issue of like Rebecca being the attractive one that everyone wants,
Speaker 1: and it's just like they don't really do anything with
Speaker 1: it. It It supposed to be this whole thing with Josh.
Speaker 1: They don't do anything with that. So it just feels
Speaker 1: like a lot of missteps and attempts to make it
Speaker 1: more i don't know, cynical male focus. Like it feels
Speaker 1: like it feels like they're like, we need a guy
Speaker 1: to sell this movie, and they like, let's get Steve Boushemy.
Speaker 1: And it's like and it's like I can tell that
Speaker 1: this movie because it's it is very beloved, and I
Speaker 1: can see that because I think that any time that
Speaker 1: a movie comes out, like with two teenage Girls, where
Speaker 1: they're just very mad, it's because like usually you know,
Speaker 1: it's like the mean girls or the clueless is and
Speaker 1: it's like, oh yeah, finally a movie for the other
Speaker 1: kinds of girls. But I hate that the economy anyway.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you wanted to touch on? No,
Speaker 1: I just I remember like when they sleep together, I
Speaker 1: like wrote on my iPad, I was like underline underline, underline, underline, underline, underline.
Speaker 1: I was so like gobsmacked. I really wish I enjoyed
Speaker 1: it more because I think that the performances are really good,
Speaker 1: Like I actually like Scarlett Johansson in the movie Wow Surprised,
Speaker 1: but she was really I thought she was goodness. I
Speaker 1: actually liked her character more. I thought Steve Bushey was,
Speaker 1: you know, very good like he was. I really kind
Speaker 1: to his performance. It made me like probably enjoy seem more,
Speaker 1: much more than I would have otherwise. The last thing
Speaker 1: I wanted to share so I read this piece by
Speaker 1: my friend Megan Kistar. She read a profile on Terry's
Speaker 1: Wigoff a couple of years ago in and she includes
Speaker 1: a picture of thora Burt and Scarlett Johansson in ghost World,
Speaker 1: and they like wrote a little message to Terry's Wigoff
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, interpret as you will. But Scarlett Johansson,
Speaker 1: who is fifteen when this movie came out or sixteen. Um,
Speaker 1: she writes next to her name, Terry. As much as
Speaker 1: I would like to think, you wouldn't, please don't hang
Speaker 1: this picture on your bedroom ceiling, Scarlett, so you know,
Speaker 1: for everyone's consideration, Jesus, there is that scene where like
Speaker 1: David Crosses character is like hitting on her and I'm like,
Speaker 1: she's obviously a child like truly, Yeah, I was equally
Speaker 1: like jump scare to see David cross in this movie
Speaker 1: as I was jump scared to see Bob Odenkirk and
Speaker 1: little women like you just don't see either of them coming.
Speaker 1: You're like the twist, Oh my gosh. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us Princess Special little segment. We'll return to
Speaker 1: the the regularly scheduled episode the first um where can
Speaker 1: people follow you online and check out your stuff so
Speaker 1: they can follow me at week's Princess Um Twitter and
Speaker 1: they can find my YouTube channel Malina Pendulum as well. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you again so much, and we'll talk to you
Speaker 1: back to the episode. So, as far as the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test goes, it us pass handily, mostly between Enid and Rebecca.
Speaker 1: There's also just a lot of different combinations of characters,
Speaker 1: female characters speaking to each other. But let's put it
Speaker 1: to our nipple scale, So a nipple scale of zero
Speaker 1: to five nipples. This is the Becto cast nipple scale.
Speaker 1: Uh so zero to five nipples based on how the
Speaker 1: movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens. So on one hand,
Speaker 1: you do have a different version of teen girls, and
Speaker 1: we have seen prior to this in most movies geared
Speaker 1: towards teenagers and young adults. So I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of value in that. I do see how relatable
Speaker 1: en it is for a lot of people, me included
Speaker 1: both in it and Rebecca. Like I saw parts of
Speaker 1: myself in in it and in Rebecca and maybe even Josh.
Speaker 1: You know, I also was making ice cream for children
Speaker 1: as a teenager, so you know, and just like teenagers
Speaker 1: torturing each other at their jobs is very universal experience. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because i have no nostalgia or attachment to this movie,
Speaker 1: and I'm coming at it strictly from the lens of
Speaker 1: really just having like seeing it as a young person
Speaker 1: only that one time, and then watching it through my
Speaker 1: current lens. It's it's really I'm able to sort of
Speaker 1: separate things. Um in a different way than someone who
Speaker 1: did grow up with this movie and does have more
Speaker 1: of an attachment to it, I guess, And that's just
Speaker 1: sort of a nature of what this show is. Like,
Speaker 1: how does the media we saw as young people, how
Speaker 1: did that affect us? How did that affect culture at large?
Speaker 1: You know all that kind of stuff, So like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what is it like to revisit it? And right, So
Speaker 1: with all of that in mind, that plus the things
Speaker 1: that I take a big issue with, which is the
Speaker 1: way it really mishandles, the racist art component of the store,
Speaker 1: the fact that there is a sexual relationship between these
Speaker 1: two characters who have such an enormous disparity in their
Speaker 1: emotional maturity. And yes, you could make the argument that
Speaker 1: Seymour is not the most emotionally mature man in his
Speaker 1: forties ever, But like, he has a better sense of
Speaker 1: who he is, he knows what he likes, he has
Speaker 1: established an adult life for himself, whereas Enid is still
Speaker 1: figuring out who she is and what she wants. And again,
Speaker 1: she's just so newly out of high school. She has
Speaker 1: not lived as an adult, and her emotional maturity is
Speaker 1: still developing. And the whole situation just gave me a
Speaker 1: lot of pause and just made me overall feel pretty uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: So with all that in mind, I guess I would
Speaker 1: give it for me. It just kind of goes right
Speaker 1: down the middle, like a two point five. Uh, nipples
Speaker 1: is what I will give it. And we also award
Speaker 1: our nipples, So if you would like to do that, um,
Speaker 1: that is an option to you. So I will give
Speaker 1: one of my nipples to end, one to Rebecca, and
Speaker 1: I will give one to the art teacher to Roberta. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Roberta gets a half. I'll go two and a half
Speaker 1: on this one as well. Yeah. I like. I like
Speaker 1: how how much agency the characters have. I like how
Speaker 1: much they funk up. I liked they're like trying to
Speaker 1: fit in, failing to fit in, trying to fit in again.
Speaker 1: Like all of that is so like. I feel like
Speaker 1: almost any team girl could see parts of themselves in
Speaker 1: that process of trying on a personality. Oh this isn't working,
Speaker 1: funk this, I'm gonna try this, and and all that
Speaker 1: is so cool and universal and I think well told
Speaker 1: and I and I I feel like the Seymour relationship
Speaker 1: could be a component of that of like, here is
Speaker 1: that that is sort of like a friendship, you know,
Speaker 1: in it is trying that friendship on, saying is this
Speaker 1: where I belong? But then it just ends up taking
Speaker 1: up so much space in a way that I'm like,
Speaker 1: I would have rather have seen her continue to have
Speaker 1: that like kind of pinball struggle instead of really honing
Speaker 1: in on this one relationship and friendship. I just kind
Speaker 1: of wish that they had chosen a different target to
Speaker 1: stay focused on there. So I have so much compassion
Speaker 1: for adolescence, I swear to God, like the way that
Speaker 1: your brain grows and at what rate and the hormones,
Speaker 1: Like I really do. I have so much compassion for
Speaker 1: people like who are going through that phase of life
Speaker 1: and showing that discomfort is like, really, it's so challenging.
Speaker 1: It's so challenging. I think we use humans are all
Speaker 1: permanently traumatized by our adolescence. Yeah, for sure, Um, except
Speaker 1: for people like me Laura. And that's why you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: why are you so goddamn chipper? For Laura? Also me, Laura,
Speaker 1: how you not? No, we don't like you. All we're
Speaker 1: doing is being you've ever once gotten a hint? Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: we should hang out sometimes well, Laura, Laura, she's not
Speaker 1: perhaps the most self aware she is, No, not a
Speaker 1: shred of self awareness about her, Laura move forward. But yeah,
Speaker 1: there's like the focus on I mean kind of similar
Speaker 1: to you, Caitlin, and I think that the way that
Speaker 1: they treat raised in this movie is very weird and
Speaker 1: doesn't this was not a movie where they could have
Speaker 1: handled that responsibly without bringing in other people, which they didn't,
Speaker 1: And so that whole storyline to the point where like
Speaker 1: the only black characters who speak are kind of made
Speaker 1: to seem over sensitive for being unhappy with the choices
Speaker 1: that Enid is making. So they're ray stuff on zero nipples,
Speaker 1: really negative. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna go two
Speaker 1: point five as well. Yeah, when Enid went to Rebecca
Speaker 1: and a half, to the girl who put the tamp
Speaker 1: on in the cup, yeah for good for her. Julie,
Speaker 1: how about you, I don't know, I give it one
Speaker 1: me at eighteen that well, Julie, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here. What an interesting thing discussion this movie
Speaker 1: has spawned. Yes, and thank you for continuing to challenge,
Speaker 1: you know, my ideas about intersectional feminism and to you know,
Speaker 1: give me things to think about and other people things
Speaker 1: to think about, and you know, generationally, I'm just very
Speaker 1: appreciative of all approaches to you know, feminism and just
Speaker 1: thinking about things the way I have I haven't been
Speaker 1: conditioned to. And I I just I really, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate those insights to kind of like throttle me from
Speaker 1: my my little comfort seat of things that I've believed
Speaker 1: since I was you know, certain like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just I just appreciate the more conversation the better. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a journey. It's a journey that we're we're there.
Speaker 1: There's things we have to learn these there's things we
Speaker 1: have to unlearn. It's a process. So we're all we're
Speaker 1: right there with you. Yeah, but good luck with those
Speaker 1: Dipamma movies. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, me a
Speaker 1: while till we return. There's no urgency. Where can people
Speaker 1: follow you? Check out your stuff? Plug away? I am
Speaker 1: on Twitter unfortunately. Uh, listen to Double Threat at a
Speaker 1: podcast I do with Tom sharp Ling and subscribe and
Speaker 1: it's really fun and I do that every week. And
Speaker 1: then I created a show called Difficult People that I
Speaker 1: co starr in with Billy Eichner and all those are
Speaker 1: on Hulu, so I'm very proud of those. You can
Speaker 1: follow us on social media at Bechtel Cast. You can
Speaker 1: subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon, which is
Speaker 1: five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus
Speaker 1: episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog
Speaker 1: of bonus episodes that's available at patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. We've also got our merch at t public
Speaker 1: dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. You can get shirts, pillows, masks,
Speaker 1: even all kinds of stuff. Also, thanks again to Princess
Speaker 1: Weeks for joining us for that special segment. Be sure
Speaker 1: to check out her work and follow her on social
Speaker 1: media as well. And U