WEBVTT - Ghost World with Julie Klausner 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.760 Hi, everyone. We wanted to include a quick content warning 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:08.080 for this episode regarding a discussion we have about something 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.720 in today's film that can easily be interpreted as sexual misconduct. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:17.200 Thanks for listening. On the beck Del Cast, the questions 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.480 asked if movies have women in um, are all their 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.000 discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:30.920 the patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.680 and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.640 My name Shamie Loftus. And this is our movie. This 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.280 is our movie. Nope, this is we made a movie. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:44.800 This is our movie. Welcome to our movie. Uh, this 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.199 is our podcast. It's been on for four years. I 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.120 don't know why I said it was a movie. Well, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.400 I thought you were going to say, like, this is 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.000 our movie podcast, this is our movie. Oh I could 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:54.560 have saved it in that way. You could have just 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.640 really seamlessly fixed it without anyone being any wiser. Well, 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:05.800 I only do one take. That's uh, something I famously do. 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:08.800 We're talking about ghost World today on our podcast, which 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.920 is about movies that uh yeah, it's been on for 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.480 many years. Oh, our podcast is about Oh, I thought 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.160 you meant the Ghost World is about movies. I'm like I, 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.400 I just like sorry. I just got out of a lobotomy, 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.200 so that's why I'm sounding this way. It's difficult. It's 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.440 a difficult day. Um five hundred degrees today and my 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.360 brain is just boiling in my head. Um, is this 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.920 a podcast? It's a podcast about movies in which we 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:40.959 examine the story through an intersectional feminist lens. It's inspired 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:46.080 by the Bechtel test by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechtel 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.600 is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. That requires, for 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:56.200 our purposes that too characters that are not coded male 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.360 with names speak to each other about something other than 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.680 a credited male character for two lines of dialogue. Doesn't 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.640 happen a lot? Yeah, but it does happen. Should we 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:15.200 test it out? Yeah, let's do it. Hey shamey? Yep, No, 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.480 I was gonna pull a quote from the movie and 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.840 nothing fits, so never Okay, I have no problem with that, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.799 and that passes the test. Yep. Things that aren't good 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.400 dialogue pass the tests all the time. It's true. Let's 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.240 introduce our guest. Yes, she is the creator and star 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.919 of Difficult People. She is the co host of Double 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:42.680 Threat podcast. It's Julie Clausner. Hi. Hello, Hello, thanks for 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.400 having me, Thanks for being here. Absolutely, So we're talking 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.239 about Ghost World. Um, Julie, what's your relationship with this movie? 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.120 I love Ghost World is one of my favorite movies, 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.519 and I'm excited to talk about it in the context 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:02.480 of the Bechtel Test because us the film itself was 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.320 so dramatically different from the book source material, and a 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.480 lot of people have, you know, take great issue in 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.480 the focus of the film being on the relationship between 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.600 ing it and Seymour as opposed to in It and Rebecca, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.080 and I completely understand that. I think of them as 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.639 two completely different works. But um, I think it's really 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.320 interesting to talk about that in the context of female 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:35.920 coded characters speaking to each other about things besides a 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.080 man or a crush. And while I think that, you know, 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.400 this is definitely a step in the in the failure 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.040 of that test direction, I just think it's such an 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.960 outstanding movie and its own right, exclusive of the source 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.120 material that UM, I'm just always excited to talk about 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.240 Ghost World. So are you familiar with the source material? 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.720 Have you read the comics. Yes, oh cool, okay, nice, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.640 that's helpful for us. We don't quize me because also, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.720 I didn't you watch this for the podcast. I just 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.120 figured I've seen it so many times that i'll, you know, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.800 for sure, I don't. Just don't quiz me. I'm going 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.800 to fail. You know what, quiz me? No, let's do it. 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.359 Quiz me. I'm ready, let's do it. On page forty seven. 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:24.440 Come on, come on, how dare you? Jamie? What's your 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.240 relationship with this film? Very short? I had not seen 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.760 this movie before. I um, I don't know. I've been 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:33.919 It's been recommended to me for years and years, and 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.640 it was just one of those movies that I had 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.400 not gotten around to seeing, and I don't It's like 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.400 one of those movies that when I finally did watch it, 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.880 I don't know what I thought it was about. But 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.720 it's not whatever it was. It is not what the 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.560 movie is actually about. I feel like there's a ton 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.640 to talk about here. Yeah, I'm very conflicted. Like I 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.800 think that if I if I had seen this movie 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.520 when it came out and or like when I was 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.200 a team in, I would feel probably different about it 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.520 than just coming in to watch it for the backtel cast. Yeah, 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.239 I'm excited to talk about it. What about you, Caitlin? 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.000 Had you seen this before I had? Um? I saw it, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.160 I think when I was a freshman in college. Um, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.240 And that would have been a few years after it 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.240 came out. That would have been in like oh, four 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.840 oh five. I was about the same age as the characters. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:28.160 And I I was also going to be like, I'm 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.760 sure if I had seen this when it came out, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.560 I would feel differently about it. But I kind of 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.520 did see it at that age, and I, UM do not. 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.120 I can't say that I like this movie, and I 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.960 have reasons. I also am not a fan of this movie. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.159 It's I don't know, I mean, but I know it's 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.680 value and also, Okay, so it's a huge it's a 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:51.040 big cult classic. It is very meaningful and very valuable 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.839 to a lot of people, such as yourself, Julie. I 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.440 want to acknowledge that. But again, yeah, I think because 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.240 like Jamie and I were watching it mostly through the 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:04.920 lens of our podcast. It's there's some issues. Oh, certainly 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.360 there's some issues, even not less, there's issues exclusive of 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.440 the podcast. Absolutely, Yeah, I think the thing that bumped 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.719 me the most on this watch and like analysis of 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.120 it was how much this movie attempts to deal with 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:24.320 race for an exclusively white cast and like in front 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.800 of the camera and behind like it's just it just 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.480 is the whitest movie on earth. No, no, there's no 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.599 race in this world. There's no race in this world. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.880 But it also tries to address race through like a 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.800 lot of different plots. It shouldn't. Yeah, I guess what 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.000 I was saying. It's it is very bizarre. I think 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.040 that the Yeah, the most surprising thing to me about 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:45.560 the story, Like I was kind of I was like, Okay, 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.080 I'm sure that it will be dated in a number 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.000 of ways in the way it treats its characters, but 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.040 I was surprised that this movie even attempted to address race. 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.200 And uh, you mean in terms of the of the 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:01.320 poster of the old poster. Yeah, it's more has I 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.960 think that's more about the lens of like a white 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.560 person dealing with what art is. Because after this, he 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.320 made Art School Confidential, which is about being an artist 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.680 in you know, art school obviously, um, and and that 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.800 sort of debate that you have internally these four walls 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.720 and how different that is from the world outside. But 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.240 the race of it, I think is just a total 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.560 prop for the white characters to have a pointed departure. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.600 It could have been almost anything, right, which means like 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.360 it shouldn't have been race. Yeah, Like, so they should 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.040 have just I feel like they just should have chosen 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.840 something something else that they were qualified to tackle. Yeah, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.280 they could have. They could have chosen anything else. That's 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.120 from olden times. That's not okay, And we'll talk more 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.160 about that in a little bit. But um, should I 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.400 just dive into the story and we'll go from there. Yeah, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:53.400 let's do it, all right. So we meet Enid and 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:59.440 Rebecca played by Soora Birch and Scarlett Johansson, respectively. They 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.040 are graduating from high school. They are a little They're 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.800 not like the other girls. They're a little countercut. They're 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.440 like the other girl. Like the other girls, they think 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.880 that everything sucks, which I personally can relate to. So 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.760 in that way, Yet it's a peak like seventeen year old, 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.679 which is in a way that is like sometimes painful 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.840 to look at. Sure, Yeah, Enid discovers that she has 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.040 to go to summer school and retake an art class. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.800 We learn just a little bit about their back stories 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.720 as well. Um they are not going to go to college. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.560 They plan to just enter the workforce and get an 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.600 apartment together and move in together. Then they see an 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.880 ad in the personal section for a guy who is 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.360 looking for this um striking blonde woman who he had 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.080 met at an airport shuttle and he thought they he 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.400 had a connection with her. So they call him two 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.719 more or less prank him. They pretend to be the 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.040 story a king blonde um and tell him to go 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:08.000 to this diner called Wowsville, which is great love it 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.800 great name. So Enid and Rebecca wait for him there 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.880 and they bring their friend Josh played by Brad Renfro, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.360 who will find that, like Enid, maybe has a crush 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:25.439 on and so does maybe Rebecca. Not totally sure, totally clear. 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:27.760 And then and I don't know, there's some context for 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.600 that too, And like the ways that studios were trying 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.080 to push the script to go, there's versions of this 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.520 script where he takes on way more significance than he does, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:40.920 and the finished in the version that was released. And 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.959 then the man from the ad shows up to Wallasville 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:48.319 and you'll never believe who it is. It's Steve Steve Bushey, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.400 and he sits there. He waits, and they take pity 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.200 on him and decide to follow him home. He is 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.600 selling records at a garage sale. Becau he's a record 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.839 collector and he's a music enthusiast, and they decide to 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.240 go talk to him. They find out his name is Seymour. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.840 Rebecca thinks he's a loser, but Enid is like, I 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.120 don't know, I think he's kind of cool. So Enid 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.119 listens to the record that she had bought from him. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.400 She really likes it. She goes back to see him 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.600 and they talk about music, and then she and Rebecca 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.360 go to a party at Seymour's um David Cross is 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.800 there and he tries to hit on Rebecca and then 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.600 Seymour is like, Enid, I can't believe you came to 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.840 this party. I'm I'm such a loser. I haven't even 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.800 had a girlfriend in four years. And she's like, well, 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.400 I'll help you find a girlfriend. And then meanwhile, um, 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.240 we see Enid in her art class. We see her 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.520 her teacher criticizing her art projects that she breaks her 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.360 hates car tunes. Yes, you draw car too. This is 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:57.800 like Daniel Klow's like grinding a very personal ax and 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.280 I think a very obvious way where he's like, you know, 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.680 our teachers think cartoons are fucking stupid. Well guess what 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.640 they're not. Like. That's kind of his whole acts to 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.920 grind in the beginning of this storyline. If you draw 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.960 a cartoon, you suck. So I guess he had a 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.000 teacher that felt that way at some point, and he's 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:21.360 he's not over it, right, because the teacher in this 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.439 movie is often telling Enid that her projects are not 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.199 thoughtful or political enough. Um. Meanwhile, Rebecca has gotten a 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.959 job at a coffee shop. We will see Rebecca kind 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.640 of becoming and hearing more and more to like societal 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.040 conventions and expectations, and that she starts dressing a little 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.080 bit more kind of conventionally, and she um gets a 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.320 job and she wants to have her own home and 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.679 things like that, while Enid is still sort of trying 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.760 to live the counterculture life. And then Enid and Seymour 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.360 go to a bar to watch music and she tries 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.160 to set him up with this random woman there he 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.600 it doesn't work out, and then they go back to 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.680 Seymour's house and um, she finds this old poster from 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:16.240 a Chicken fast food restaurant where he works as an 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.760 assistant manager at their corporate headquarters. And this poster shows 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.240 a very racist name and image that the restaurant used 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.640 to like use. So she takes it with her, this 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.720 poster and brings it into her art class as a 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.240 found art project, and she says that with this piece, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.920 she's making a statement about racism, how it's whitewashed in 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.800 our culture. And everyone in the class is like, wow, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.480 that's pretty fucked up, but the teacher is like, wow, 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:51.280 what a remarkable achievement. Then we see um Enid celebrating 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.720 Seymour's birthday with him, and while this is happening, he 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.960 receives a call from the real striking blonde woman who 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.720 he had placed the ad about Dana. Yeah, Enid convinces 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.720 him to call her back and he meets her and 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.679 they turned out to not have anything in common, but 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:14.520 they start seeing each other anyway, to Enid's dismay. Now, meanwhile, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.240 her art piece of the racist poster is put on 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.000 display at a student art show, but people are demanding 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:27.319 its removal. Enid isn't even there to defend herself because 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.520 she goes over to Seymours and she's like, hey, let's 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.920 hang out and he's like, I don't think it's a 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.720 good idea that we hang out anymore. And it's like, okay, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.520 this is just occurring to him now, yes, and it's 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.520 like he's like, wait, hold on, I'm Steve BUSHEMI and 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.640 my best friend is seventeen. The optics of this are 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.679 not so good. Yes, another huge issue I take with this. 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.760 It's very bizarre ya. And then she's like, okay, fine, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.440 I won't bother you anymore. And then Rebecca is like, hey, 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.760 you you clearly don't want to live with me anymore, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.199 so fuck you. Enid also live loses out on her 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.680 scholarship opportunity for this art academy. Um. So this is 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.280 what we would call the low point of the film, 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.000 and she's sad. So she goes over to Seymour's again 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.480 and she's like, how come you never asked me out 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.680 when I was trying to find you a girlfriend? What 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.440 if I just move in with you? And he's like shrug, 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:24.080 and then they have sex, which I truly did not think. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.000 What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen the movie. I didn't 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.680 think it was gonna happen, and then and then there 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.160 it is, and it happens, and I was like, okay. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:38.040 And then Steve Bushemy pivots so many times. He's like, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.400 we shouldn't hang out anymore because you're seventeen. He's like, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.560 I thought about it. We should actually get married because 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:48.960 you're seventeen. I'm like, okayes yep. And then so Enend 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.840 seems to regret this decision to have sex with him 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.400 immediately and starts blowing him off and then decides to 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:00.440 move move in with Rebecca again. Meanwhile, Seymour finds out 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.400 from Rebecca about the prank that they played on him 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.240 at the beginning of the movie, and he thinks that 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.560 she is in love with Josh, their friend who shows 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.240 up every five minutes, so he so Seymour goes to 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.280 confront him, ends up in the hospital. Enid comes to 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:21.400 visit Seymour in the hospital and she apologizes and she's like, actually, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.640 you're my hero. You're the coolest person I know. But 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.520 then Enid leaves. It seems like although she and Rebecca 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.360 have made up, there kind of lives are headed on 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.720 different paths. We see Seymour in therapy. He's talking about 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.360 his breakup with Enid, and then Enid gets on a 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.920 bus that is out of service and it might be 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.440 a metaphor for her dying. It's me, it's a metaphor, 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.280 the whole metaphor of us. Guy that you're like, all right, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.040 this was a book first, Yes, metaphor bus equals it 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.840 was a book. So that's the story. Let's take a 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.240 quick break and then we will come right back to discuss. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.880 One of the things that stood out to me about 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.360 this movie is was what you were saying earlier, Julie, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:11.760 was that I thought that this movie was going to 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.280 be way more about Enid and Rebecca. But Scarlett Johansson 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.480 is actually not in this movie that much. Yeah, Rebecca 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.520 is not a very fleshed out character in the movie. Yeah, 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.520 I guess. I it's interesting because I wish that and 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.520 I'm assuming the books that there was more focus on 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.600 Rebecca because this movie, I mean, it's not really taking 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.120 this side of either one of them on their approach 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.440 to life, and I kind of appreciate that. It's like, Okay, 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.560 they are taking different paths, and that is neither a 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.920 good nor a bad thing, but but it is. It 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:50.880 is so like just I don't know, there's so much 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.880 about this movie that you're just like seventeen year olds 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.840 are so frustrating, where like Enid is constantly mad at 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.240 Rebecca like how dare you have a job for to support? 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.000 And I'm like, you fucking bratt. I just got so 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.920 frustrated with Enid every step of this movie because she's 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.719 I I she is very isolated by her own you know, 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.359 by her own mentality and by her own approach to life. 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.480 But then it's like there's so much like privilege tied 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.080 up in the ways that she's frustrating. Like she's mad 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.920 that her friend has to have a job to survive, 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.960 which is like, yeah, that's frustrating for everybody, but more 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.680 so the people doing it than their friends. And like 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.680 I don't know, yeah, I I we don't. I guess 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.960 I don't really know enough about Rebecca to really be 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:44.400 attached to her. But of the two, I was team Rebecca, 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:49.560 Team Rebecca, team grow up and get a life. Sure again, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.760 like I see the value in this movie and that 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:58.280 there weren't that many thoughtful or subversive portrayals of team 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.480 girls in media at as time, and I think that's 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.359 why a lot of people latched on to it so much. 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.680 And again, I appreciate what it's doing. In many ways, 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:13.000 I relate to Enid and Rebecca like I was similar 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.280 to them in some ways when I was a teenager. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.560 There are other ways in which I can't and don't 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.480 relate to them. But isn't that the way with characters 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.080 um For me, it's just like it's subversive as it 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.240 is the things that it tries to subvert. In many cases, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.600 it mishandles. It's it's hard because it's I I was 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.159 thinking a little bit about when we and they're they're 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.399 extremely different movies, but I guess as an example of 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.560 when we talked about Carrie a couple of years ago, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.560 where that is like the experience of a teen girl 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.240 in a very different genre, but it's told through the 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:54.320 lens of so many different people who did not and 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.880 could not possibly share the experience of a teen girl, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.560 and it all kind of like it feels like there 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.000 are things that are true and relatable and like very 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.320 emotionally poignant about it, but then it kind of gets 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.240 lost because it's like, Okay, you know, a man originally 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:14.080 wrote this book and then a different man. They're both 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.719 you know, I'm sure emotionally sensitive and wonderful people, but 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.159 there's some stuff that just feels a little off and 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.080 rings a little hollow, and I think that part of 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.439 it can be attributed to that um where it's like 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:30.119 to Brandon Palmer is not a sensitive no. I I 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.600 just want to get that in there. But as far 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.040 as like Terry and Daniel go, they seem to be 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.639 like a well intentioned writing team that want to portray 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.080 these experiences honestly, but I just kind of wish that 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.760 they had like spoken to and and credited more women 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.679 in that process, and the whole work probably would have 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.720 been elevated if that were the case. The same thing 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.959 goes for the I think kind of big miss as 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:56.719 they make with the comments they try to make on 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.639 racist like, you know, it's just they are not qualified 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.720 to be making these statements, and I think that where 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:09.400 it does succeed is where they're trying to communicate how 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:15.600 clueless both Enid and Seymour are about racism, and how 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.119 they are saying a lot of things but clearly not 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.600 understanding them, to the point where Enid is literally trying 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.680 to like advance herself off of the work of other 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.240 people and off of the idea of racism without really 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.479 doing any critical thinking or introspection about it. And that 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.879 reads pretty clearly. But then what like, you have to 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.480 have a black person involved in the production, and you 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.000 have to have a black character otherwise you're just saying, like, 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.200 I don't understand racism here it is here, like I 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.840 don't know, it just doesn't. It just felt very strange 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:53.160 to me. I agree, I think to that. So the 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.840 comic book was written by Daniel Klou's He co wrote 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.320 the screenplay with Terry why Off, who directed the film. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.840 So that those are those are people who are telling 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.600 this story. Um, I feel like this is another case 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.919 of like men observing women in the world and thinking, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.280 I get it. I see how women be, so I'll 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.800 tell their story. And to me, we see a lot 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.960 of this, like, you know, these girls are not like 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.600 the other girls, which I want to clarify something about that, um, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.359 because every time I teach my my screenwriting class, my 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.480 students are always like, I just want to make sure 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.479 my girl isn't like one of the girls who's not 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.679 like the other girls. And I'm like because I think 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.080 it can maybe be easily misinterpreted. Um, what we take 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.480 issue with is the idea that a woman will behave 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.680 a certain way because she does not want to be 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:51.720 perceived as being like other women, because other women equals bad, 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.119 because like femininity or womanhood or anything like that is 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.200 a negative thing, and they're trying to disassociate themselves with that. 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.760 That is what we mean by this when we comment 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.080 on this trope, And this is kind of what the 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.760 characters are doing, especially in how they view other female 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.600 characters in this movie. Because even though Enid and Rebecca 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.480 have a what feels like a strong relationship at first, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.640 although it deteriorates over the course of the movie, there 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.200 are various other characters like a classmate of theirs named 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.240 Melaura who they who just seems to want to hang 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:29.520 out with them, and they're like, she's so awful. Enid 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.960 hates her like I guess former step mom, or like 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.680 a next girlfriend of her dad's who he starts dating again. Um, 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.199 we're not really sure why she hates her. Think the 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.680 way that the art teacher and the star art student 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.320 is also kind of telling to where it's like the 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.919 star art teacher is very I mean again, I'm just 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.720 like I think that it genuinely as Daniel Klaus grinding 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.800 some old acts that he has from high school. But 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.280 but it is it's like this uh woman who only 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:01.639 wants to see art about like a bore and vagina, 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.480 and the student who gets rewarded is a like I 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.360 think she's made out to be this overly serious artist 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.800 who only makes things about abortion and vagina and that 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:13.600 is rewarded, and so it's like, yeah, the way that 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:18.679 other women are characterized it is a little like you know, 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:20.679 en It and Rebecca are the outliers. What I do 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:25.280 appreciate is that in It and Rebecca are clearly flawed, 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.120