1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from house supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: not come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about the Lavender 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Menace and Caroline, when you first heard the phrase lavender menace, 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: what came to mind? Probably Grimace from the McDonald's Dads 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: from the eighties. Oh, Grimmath, Yeah, Grimmace do I don't know, 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: but I for years I got I got Grimmace on 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: my hand, but Burglar mixed up, so then it really 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't be a lavender menace Grimmace coming along stealing all 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: your cheeseburger. But I think Grimace was just like a 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: purple gum drop of happiness. I don't know. Well, the 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: lavender Menace has nothing to do with cheeseburgers, nothing to 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: do with fast food corporations, and sadly, Caroline, nothing to 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: do with your childhood. No, it's probably better than it doesn't. 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: So the Lavender Menace is a not so sunny but 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: also kind of radical and amazing chapter of second wave 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: feminist history that we wanted to talk about because A 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people know about it, 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: and B it is informative to the relationship today between 20 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: feminism and sexual orientation. Um. And this also is a 21 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: snapshot of what happens when intersectionality doesn't really exist, because 22 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: we usually think of intersectionality in terms of ethnicity. And 23 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: it's also instructive to for understanding the cultural climate when 24 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: second wave feminism and more specifically women's liberation was really 25 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: taking off and developing and becoming this large scale political 26 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: movement in tandem with things like civil rights and gay 27 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: rights also beginning to organize. But what is the lavender menace? Well, 28 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: as it relates to women's liberation and the second way feminism, 29 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: it was initially a term that journalist Susan Brown Miller 30 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: attributes to Betty for Dan, she of feminine mystique fame uh, 31 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: when describing the potential credibility threat that was posed to 32 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: the National Organization of Women and really feminism at large 33 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: by aligning with lesbians. Well, this was specifically referring to 34 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: radical lesbians at the time who considered women only relationships 35 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: to be a necessary cornerstone of feminism. And we're going 36 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: to talk about radical lesbians and lesbian feminism in the 37 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: second half of the podcast US but It's important to 38 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: clarify that this was focused specifically on a group of women, 39 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: and some bright young person out there today might be thinking, well, 40 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want lesbians or pan sexual women or 41 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: bisexual women in your feminist movement? That seems weird, and 42 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: it does, but it had a lot to do with, 43 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: like I said, the credibility threat that people like Betty 44 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: for Dan perceived. Uh. They were so worried that because 45 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: there was this fear of homosexuality at the time, and 46 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: this fear of lesbians, that they would almost hate the 47 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: message basically. So to give you an idea though, of 48 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: what degree of homophobia we are talking about in ne 49 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: A guy named Frank Scaprio wrote in Variations and Sexual 50 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: Behavior that quote, female homosexuality is becoming an increasingly important problem. 51 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: It's believed by some that women are becoming rapidly defeminized 52 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: as a result of their overt desire for emancipation, and 53 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: that this psychic masculinization of American women contributes to frigidity. 54 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: Some sexologists fear that this defeminization trend may seriously affect 55 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: the sexual happiness of modern women, and, as is still 56 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: the case today, the go to insults for feminists at 57 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: the time were that they were frigid, that they didn't 58 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: want to shave their legs, and that they were man 59 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: hating lesbians. And that was really the most insulting thing 60 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: that you could tell a woman at the time, because 61 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: again homophobia, and also it was the seventies, y'all. Yeah, 62 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: And so in order to fight the stereotypes now, the 63 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: National Organization for Women initially thought it best to distance 64 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: itself from anything that might tie the group or the 65 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: women in the group to lesbianism or lesbians, or the 66 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: hint that someone might not have shaved their legs that day. 67 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: So they certainly were not going to add any sort 68 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: of lesbian agenda to their overall agenda. Well, and it 69 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: was specifically to radical lesbians that they were concerned about, because, 70 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: as we'll talk about more in the second half of 71 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: the podcast when we get into a discussion about lesbian feminism, Um, 72 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: there were women at the time who considered women only 73 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: relationships to be a necessary cornerstone of feminism. In order 74 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: to fully resist the patriarchy, you got to fully resist 75 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: the penis. We're talking about in the bedroom too, that's right. 76 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: So how did the lavender menace play out. Well, we've 77 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: got to go back to nineteen sixty three when Betty 78 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: for Dan publishes The Feminine Mystique, which was revolutionary absolutely 79 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: for the time, but for a very specific group of women. 80 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: Some of the criticisms are probably not new to many 81 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: of our listeners, and we read about this uh in 82 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: The Atlantic and a piece by Ashley Fetters. A lot 83 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: of people criticized the book as being not only classist, 84 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: applying only to perhaps middle or upper middle class or 85 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: wealthy white suburban housewives, but also saying that it was racist, 86 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: that it literally only did apply to white women and 87 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: left out the concerns of women of color. And of 88 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: course there was the point that it was not exactly 89 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: embracing of gay people and that it was homophobic. Yeah. 90 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: At one point, for Dan links quote the National Embrace 91 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: of the Feminine Mystique to gay men, referring to male 92 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: homosexuality as a murky smog. So that doesn't sound exactly 93 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: open minded. Yeah, she had based her idea of male 94 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: homosexuality as a murky smog on Kinsey's research about gay 95 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: men that was based on men he had talked to 96 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: in prison and in bars. So it's it's kind of 97 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: unfortunate when you're basing kind of your thesis on shaky research. Well, 98 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: and she certainly, certainly certainly did not have lesbians in 99 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: mind when she wrote The Femininiste. I mean, if you 100 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: read it today, it's very clear that she is talking 101 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: to a very specific, white, upwardly mobile group of women. 102 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: And then three years later, in nineteen sixty nine, relations 103 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: between lesbian feminists and straight feminists took a negative turn 104 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: when now omitted the New York chapter of the Daughters 105 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: of Bilidus, which was the first civil and political lesbian 106 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: organization in the United States, from its sponsors because again, 107 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: like we talked about for Dan and the powers that 108 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: were in the National Organization for Women said, you know what, 109 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: we need to distance our salves from the quote unquote 110 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: lesbian agenda. And you know what lesbian leader Rita may 111 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: Brown said in response was see you later. Now I 112 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: am out of here. Yeah. Rina may Brown, who is 113 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: an all around pretty nifty woman. She is featured over 114 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: on makers the PBS, a O L partnership that celebrates 115 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: amazing women, and she certainly is once so I recommend 116 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: you head over there and learn all about Rita may Brown. 117 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: But that year late nine into early nineteen seventy, New 118 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: York Times magazine journalist Susan Brown Miller, who mentioned earlier 119 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: who herself was a legitimate part of the feminist movement, 120 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: was assigned to cover women's liberation. And it's worth noting 121 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: that brown Miller only got this assignment after a male 122 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: reporter they originally tapped to cover it was shut down 123 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: because the women just were like, I don't feel like 124 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: talking to a guy about this. Yeah, no way, no 125 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: way where women's lively gonna be like, hey, yeah, come 126 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: on and fella down. You're not going to mock us 127 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: at all. So on March fifteenth, nine seventy, brown Miller's 128 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: piece Sisterhood Is Powerful is published in New York Times magazine, 129 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: and this is really when the whole lavender menace thing 130 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: kind of blows up. So it includes this bit she wrote, quote. 131 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: The super sensitivity of the movement to the lesbian issue 132 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: and the existence of a few militant lesbians within the 133 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: movement once prompted for Dan herself to grouse about the 134 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: lavender menace that was threatening to warp the image of 135 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: women's rights. A lavender herring, perhaps, but surely no clear 136 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: and present danger. And of course brown Miller meant the 137 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: herring comment to discredit for Dan and for Dan's nervousness 138 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: about lesbians and including lesbians in the movement. However, unfortunately 139 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: a lot of radical lesbians took it to discredit them, 140 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: as if brown Miller was saying, don't worry about those 141 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: little lesbians. They're not going to be able to organize 142 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: and cause any sort of political upheaval. So, in response 143 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: to this whole thing, members of the Gay Liberation Front 144 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: break off to form the Radical Lesbians, who also call 145 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: themselves the Lavender Menace. They're reclaiming this insult, you know, 146 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: attributed to for Dan, and they decide that they are 147 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: going to organize and strike back at now Yeah, and 148 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: so on May one, ninety they strike the Second Congress 149 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: to unite women and they quote unquote zapp the event. 150 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: So basically they had plans in advance. They run in, 151 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: they turn out the lights in this gathering of women. 152 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: They end up storming the stage once the lights come on. 153 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: There they are, they're on stage, they're in the aisles, 154 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: and they hand out copies of the woman identified woman 155 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: and they happen to be wearing some pretty cool homemade 156 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: lavender minace shirts, which would be awesome if those were circulated. Again, 157 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: not saying you have to buy anyone, but would be great. 158 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: So the Woman Identified Woman, by the way, was the 159 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: Radical Lesbians manifesto, and Caroline, can I read a little 160 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: bit from the beginning of the Woman Identified Woman please? 161 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the best intros to 162 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: like a pamphlet type thing that I've ever read. Yeah, 163 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: and I posted this on our Instagram and the comments 164 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: on it were pretty entertaining. What is a lesbian? A 165 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: lesbian is the rage of all women condensed to the 166 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: point of explosion. She is the woman who, often, beginning 167 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: at an extremely early age, acts in accordance with her 168 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: inner compulsion to be a more complete and freer human 169 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: being than her society, perhaps then but certainly later, cares 170 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: to allow her. The Radical Lesbians, in other words, we're 171 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: not messing around, because being a lesbian was not only 172 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. It was an entire political philosophy in a 173 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: lot of ways, and it actually turned out pretty well. 174 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: It seems like the Radical Lesbians ended up leading workshops 175 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: at the Second Congress to unite women talking about how 176 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: to educate other women about their politics and platforms and 177 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: the thing though that's really interesting to consider. I mean, again, 178 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: this is not that long ago. It's in the early seventies, um, 179 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: but but still might seem so foreign for us today. 180 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: But there was this real conflict um for straight feminists 181 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: who were concerned maybe not so much with lesbianism in particular, 182 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: but really the focus on sex. There was this misconception 183 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: that everything was all just about sex, and that lesbians 184 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: were telling them, well, no, instead of having sex with men, 185 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: you have to now have X with women. And Coott 186 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: was one of the writers of this time who took 187 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: issue with that, and she was essentially saying in one 188 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: pamphlet we read from I think ninety one so the 189 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: following year after the Second Congress, to women that it shouldn't, 190 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: in her opinion, it shouldn't be about who you're sleeping with, 191 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: whether you want to be a radical lesbian, or you're straight, 192 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: or you're a sexual or whoever you are. That true 193 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: political power doesn't lie, and who gets in your bed 194 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: is what you do with it. So fine, you want 195 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: to say that you're gonna be a lesbian to align 196 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: yourself with the radical lesbians, or that you just are 197 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: a lesbian, like that's all well and good. Take that anger, 198 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: that willingness to turn away from men and the patriarchy 199 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: and actually put it towards dismantling the system. Well, and 200 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: it's worth noting to how women's liberation had really been 201 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: considered a refuge from all of those cultural sexual pressures 202 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: that women in the time had been feeling. So it 203 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: is a understandable that some reacted with hesitation. But with 204 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: this knowledge, radical lesbians really pivoted their message away from 205 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: sex because for them it was not about sex, But 206 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: when it came to the sex factor, they emphasized sensuality, lifestyle, 207 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: and purity, essentially saying like these are the purest possible 208 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: kinds of relationships that women can have. Because also there 209 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: was a criticism that well, lesbians were simply mimicking the 210 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: male role and just to sexually exploit women, which of 211 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: course also was not the case. Yeah, they're really removing 212 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: sexuality from their message to make it more about not 213 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: being dependent on men. Part of that was to clarify 214 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: the message. Part of that, I think was to make 215 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: the more mainstream street feminists comfortable so that like everybody 216 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: can get along and sort of work together, because Rina 217 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: may Brown pointed out over in one of her videos 218 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: over at Makers that prior to the Lavender min Is 219 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: striking the Second Congress to Unite women, basically after for 220 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: Dan had kicked the lesbians out, the movement really suffered. 221 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: It became weaker, it became more divided. You took out 222 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: a passionate element from your movement. So of course it's 223 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: going to be weaker. And so whether they are considering 224 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: themselves radical lesbians or whether they're sort of pivoting their 225 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: message to make the mainstream a little more comfortable, they're saying, 226 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: let's work together and fight for political power. Well well, 227 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: speaking of politics, so one point that Rita may Brown 228 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: maid whom we should note is a best selling author, 229 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: She argued that when those lesbians initially left that movement, 230 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: that they took the culture with them, and that the 231 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: only thing now was focused on we're just straight political platforms, 232 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: as is really still the case today in a lot 233 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: of ways and terms of um quote unquote mainstream feminism. 234 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: But we do see the factions coming back together again 235 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: at least a little bit. In September nine, the National 236 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Now Conference passed a resolution on lesbian as a legitimate 237 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: concern of feminism as well as it should be noted 238 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: the quote double oppression of minority women. So finally, in 239 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: ninety one, now is starting to like really pay attention 240 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: to the fact that, hey, not all this white straight women. Um. 241 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: And it's also in nineteen seventy one that the Radical 242 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: Lesbians disband, and also too, in a show of solidarity 243 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: to to kind of see how this is progressing, some 244 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: straight feminists started identifying as political lesbians just to you know, 245 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: really ally themselves with those women. And so it took 246 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: a minute, but in nine seventies seven, fre Dan herself 247 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: for cants that lavender menace bigotry and pledges support for 248 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: lesbian's rights by seconding the motion to support Lesbian Rights 249 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: at a Women's Confidence in Houston. It was held to 250 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: ratify the United Nations Platforms for Women. And we should 251 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: say too that in the maker's interviews, which if you 252 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: can't tell, yeah, you should watch them, and those makers 253 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: interviews with Rida may Brown, she does talk specifically about 254 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: Betty fre Dan, and she says I always respected her. 255 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: I didn't always agree with her, obviously, but she was 256 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: instrumental in this massive movement, and she kind of laughs 257 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: about how Fredan was always very hesitant to say anything 258 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: publicly about how she had been wrong on the so 259 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: called lesbian issue. But I thought it was notable of 260 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: Rida May Brown to just be like, yeah, I mean 261 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: I respected her, but I mean it didn't mean I 262 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: necessarily liked her all the time, which again to me, 263 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: just goes to show how she's a pretty cool lady 264 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: brand a Brown, and I should say to Caroline that. 265 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: In the HBO documentary about Gloria Steinham, this issue also 266 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: gets a brief mention, and Steinham talks about how she 267 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: and fre Dan definitely did not see eye to eye 268 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 1: when it came to the gay issue, because that was 269 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: something that Steinham always stood on behalf of in terms 270 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: of being more inclusive. So props to Gloria, you know, 271 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: all glow um. But now that we've talked about, you know, 272 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: what the lavender menace was, we do want to talk 273 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: more about lesbian feminism and get a little bit more 274 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: into radical feminism that was going on in the seventies 275 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: and eighties again, because I feel like this is history, 276 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: feminist history that we might know about in broad brushstrokes, 277 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: but maybe not in more of the details. Well, and 278 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's part of the problem, in 279 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: that voices of women outside of that white, middle class, 280 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: straight mainstream have frequently been and consistently been uh silenced 281 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: or just place lower on the totem pole. And I 282 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: just think too that it's important for us to understand 283 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: how feminism has evolved and all of the various schools 284 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: of thought that are contained within it. And I mean 285 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is, as we'll talk about 286 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: more when we get into lesbian feminism, that you know, 287 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: trying to find the perfect feminism, I think it is 288 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: rather impossible, and it's perhaps more beneficial rather than seeking perfection, 289 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: to glean the lessons learned earned from and through these 290 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: various feminisms. Yeah, well, I mean exactly feminisms plural, because yes, 291 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean I think if you're going to use a 292 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: broad brush and paint with a broad feminist brush, yes, 293 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: everyone who might consider themselves a feminist would talk about 294 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: uh political standing, rights, access, gender equality. Yeah, but there 295 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: are more nuances, although some of those nuances are more 296 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: radical than others. So in the nineteen seventies, as second 297 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: wave feminism and women's literation is developing. This thing called 298 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: cultural feminism is really branching into major directions. There's the 299 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: idea of resisting sexism by changing institutions, things that we 300 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: would think about today in terms of like getting for 301 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: aggressive feminist women elected to office, women owned businesses, starting 302 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: and supporting those. And then there was an option out 303 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: from that which took things a little bit further, to 304 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: say the least, and this was lesbian separatism. Yeah, this 305 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: was this was sort of what made Betty for Dan 306 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: uncomfortable when she was heading up now and so in 307 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: the late sixties and seventies and even really today, to 308 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: some extent, some women's liberationists believed that not only were 309 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: feminism and lesbianism inextricably linked and that that was the 310 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: lifestyle that you should pursue and aspire to, but that 311 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: literally the women who considered themselves to be radical lesbians 312 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: were the vanguard of the feminist movement. They said, hey, 313 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: we rejected these patriarchal sex roles, We rejected men before 314 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: any of you guys did. We're the we're the original 315 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: hipster of the feminist movement. And it was this separation, 316 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: or this desire to be separate that did sort of 317 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: drive a lot of people away, but it certainly attracted 318 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people to that movement as well. Yeah, 319 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: and in terms of that idea of lesbians being the 320 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: vanguard of the feminist movement, um, we can go back 321 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: quickly to the Woman Identified Woman Manifesto, which at one 322 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: point said only women can give each other a new 323 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: sense of self. We must be available and supportive to 324 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: one another and give our commitment and our love. And 325 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: that's something to keep in mind in terms of how 326 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: radical feminism not only called for gender equality but also 327 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 1: liberation from sex roles, which of course the radical lesbians 328 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: would then take a step farther. And this was something 329 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: that Ann Cote wrote about in nineteen seventy one, and 330 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: we found it over at the Chicago Women's Liberation Union 331 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: Archive online, which is a really great resource. Um. So, 332 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: Anne wrote about how other gay women see lesbianism as 333 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: much more than a defining term for the sex of 334 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: your bed partner of them. It's a total life commitment 335 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: to a life with women in an entire system of 336 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: worldview and life living. And that also gets to why 337 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're using the term lesbianism, which makes it 338 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: sound like not like a sexual orientation or even identity, 339 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: but rather this whole thing, because it was this whole thing, 340 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: an entire worldview. Yeah, because, as Ancott also pointed out, 341 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: she was like, hey, ladies, like, it's fine if you're 342 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: a lesbian, but sexism and sex roles that you're talking 343 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: about don't disappear just because you're not sleeping with men, 344 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: just because you're sleeping with women. And so she was 345 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: sort of pushing for well, I don't know that she's 346 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: pushing for lesbianism as you were just talking about a 347 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: Christian but she was pushing for just a little bit 348 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: of an oop behind turning the idea of turning away 349 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: from men. Ladies, Let's get some o. Yeah, let's get 350 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: some get some volumes, get our op back, and don't 351 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: just turn away from men. Sure fine, but use as 352 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: a political force. Use your efforts and your energy as 353 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: a political force. I'm just imagining feminism as a woman's 354 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: head of hair, and this whole radical lesbian thing being 355 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: like a bumpet, you know, in in these terms one 356 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: of those would it be like a bun donut thing? 357 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: Yeah too, I like the bump of stock bun. Yeah. Um, 358 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: So when it comes though to lesbian separatism. They were 359 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: advocating for living away from men entirely because they really 360 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: believed that liberation meant living away from men, that that 361 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: was the only way to truly achieve female liberation. And 362 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that this group was very much more 363 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: on the fringes. But out of this though, a lot 364 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: of women only spaces emerge, some of which were more 365 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: of the consciousness raising types of like the safe spaces 366 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: that we think of more in terms of online spaces today, 367 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: but they also went as far as entire living arrangements 368 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: that you know, specifically banned men from the premises. Well yeah, 369 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: and as Rita may Brown talks about in some of 370 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: the maker's videos, it was literally like the first time 371 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: that some of these women had ever experienced anything like that, 372 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and talking about it aside from from whether 373 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: you were a lesbian or not. Um she talks about 374 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: how the trajectory of so many women's lives was just Okay, 375 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: you're someone's child, and then maybe you go to college 376 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: and probably might live in a sorority house, so you're 377 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: still living with other women, but still with the goal 378 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: of well, as soon does that phase of your life 379 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: is over, You're going to be in someone else's house, uh, 380 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: in marriage, so you never quite break out and learn 381 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: to live life on your own. And so they were 382 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: definitely advocating for women almost to learn how to live, 383 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: how to be on their own and be themselves and 384 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: be okay with that. Yes. An example of this was 385 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: a group called the Furies that splintered off from the 386 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: Radical Lesbians, and they were collective trying to prove that 387 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: they could live without men, to the point actually that 388 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: activist Alice Wolfson was told that she could not bring 389 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: her infant son to a Furies meeting because he had 390 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: a penis, Like literally no pains allowed. That baby is 391 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: the enemy. And the Furies, who I want to say, 392 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: Rita May Brown was a part of. Weren't just living together. 393 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: They created their own newspaper. They had a childcare center, 394 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: although I wonder the childcare center accepted boy babies as well. 395 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna assume so. And they also, as she talks about, 396 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: had a car repair school, because back then, as is now, 397 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: women taking their car to the shop was usually not 398 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: that fun of an experience. Yeah, and Brown talks about 399 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: how this group ended up inspiring other such collective houses 400 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: or safe spaces and even women's festivals where yeah, sure 401 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: you had women performing and women attending, but you also 402 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: had women on the tech side running the lights, running 403 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: the sound and all of that stuff which paved the 404 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: way for Lilith Fair. Thank you so much the end. Also, 405 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm now wondering, with all of the nineties nostalgia happening, 406 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: will Lilith Fair come back? Well, I just saw Sarah 407 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: maclocklin just performed somewhere. I'm so informative, but I grew 408 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: up like listening to that somewhere on the planet Saram 409 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: Glocklin played a guitar. And one example of how this 410 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: was happening to not only in New York this, uh, 411 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: if we go over to Seattle, there was a y 412 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: m c A there that became a hub for feminist 413 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: activity in organizing and really became one of those women 414 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: only spaces, and it actually moved away from the y 415 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: m c A to further demarcate it as a safe 416 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: space for women so that you wouldn't like walk out 417 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: the door and then all these guys going to the 418 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: y UM. And we mentioned this too in our episode 419 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: a while back on women and farming. Yeah, exactly. It 420 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: was the nineteen seventies Women's Land movement Women with a Y. 421 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: You had radical feminist farming, separatist agricultural communities things like 422 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: Yellow Hammer and Woman Share in order to achieve that 423 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: effort to fully liberate themselves from men and from the patriarchy. 424 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: And we had cited a great piece in Modern Farmer, 425 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: which I believe in that episode, Kristen and I could 426 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: not stop talking about how that was our new favorite magazine. 427 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: And speaking of magazines, these groups even had their own 428 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: independent publications and newsletters like Country Woman and so as 429 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: we talked about in that episode. Not to like completely 430 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: go off on a tangent, but it almost wasn't so 431 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: much about the farming. It was certainly obviously there was 432 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: an effort to grow food and eat it, but it 433 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: was just more of that idea of like, look, we 434 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: don't need men to provide our every little need. And 435 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: did that desire for independence also get into what could 436 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: be considered misonry of just straight up man hating. Yeah, 437 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: I mean the answer is yeah, yeah, to the point 438 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: where even butch lesbians were looked down upon, considered unhealthy. 439 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: It's not it's not healthy for for lesbians or lesbianism 440 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: or feminism for you to try to assume the role 441 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: of the man, because you know, not only are you 442 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: trying to put yourself above someone who is feminine or female, 443 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: but you're adapting the same like sexual objectification that men do. Yeah, 444 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: it was referred to as male identified role playing and 445 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: something that was very dangerous and and in some of 446 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: these circles, rather than masculine, feminine androgeny was the philosophical 447 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: And you do have people like Valeria Salani's writing things 448 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: like the Scum Manifesto, which described women as essentially perfect 449 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: and men as the sources of all that's wrong with 450 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: the world. And this is beyond examining something through the 451 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: lens of a patriarchy, but rather looking at the individual 452 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 1: men as humans and saying you are you, individually are 453 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: the root of all evil, not these structures, that societal 454 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: structures that we have erected and um. In Scum Manifesto, 455 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: Salonis maintains that true love can only exist between two women. 456 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: And the thing is, I mean again, we said a 457 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: few minutes ago that all the feminisms are not perfect, 458 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: and this is by no means perfect, That is, by 459 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: no means inclusive in a way, this is doing exactly 460 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: what feminism in its essence of gender equality is fighting against, 461 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: which is deliberately excluding roughly half the population and kind 462 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: of echoing that. Maybe not the same exact sentiment, but 463 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: Adrian Rich who was writing at the time to envisioned 464 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: a lesbian continuum of woman identifications. So maybe you were 465 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: actually literally a lesbian, or maybe you were just turning 466 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: away from men, but she felt, or she wrote that 467 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: she felt that these types of connections would end up 468 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: weakening heterosexualities embrace of the patriarchy. So yeah, you had 469 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: actual literal man hating, individual man hating, and then you 470 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: had people saying, we just whether you're a real lesbian 471 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: or a political lesbian, we just have to turn away 472 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: from men and the things that men have set up 473 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: in society. And considering the context of the time, I 474 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: can understand where some of these women were coming from, 475 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: where it probably did feel necessary to divorce themselves entirely 476 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: of what was such a heinously sexist culture at the time. 477 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: But standing where we are today, um that that doesn't 478 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: seem like much of a path toward progress, because you 479 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: also have issues like bisexual erasure going on as well, 480 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: because sleeping with men, according to some, was considered prostituting yourself. 481 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: So obviously, you know, you have political lesbianism, and if 482 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're still attracted to men in whatever 483 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: way that might be, that's just not okay if you 484 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: want to achieve your full feminist potential. And of course, 485 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: when it comes to race and class issues, lesbian feminism 486 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: wasn't all encompassing and intersectional either, which is kind of 487 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: ironic considering that this broke off from the quote unquote 488 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: mainstream movement because of feeling isolated and ignored and overlooked 489 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: and simply disliked. And while radical lesbians certainly vocally supported 490 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: all women, it still was a mostly white, middle class 491 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: and educated community of women talking about things. It's not like, 492 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: Asrida may Brown, It's not like a lot of these 493 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: activists were thinking about women who might be in a 494 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: poor inner city environment, or in a poor farm community 495 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: or working at a diner. There were people who were 496 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: less economically advantaged, who were on the margins, who weren't 497 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: really included in this movement. Well, I mean, and even 498 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: if they were living in one of those communities. As 499 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, some of these women have talked about since 500 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: if they didn't have kind of the lingo in the 501 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: background and the college education, um, they were considered, you know, 502 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: just just sort of I don't want to say hicks 503 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 1: in a way, but but kind of they were the 504 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: ones who would get more of a sidea in terms 505 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: of their gender presentation if they were dressing more butch 506 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: um and and things like that. And there was also 507 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: a group of black lesbians at one point who felt 508 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: excluded from the whiteness of lesbian feminism and the straightness 509 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: of black feminism and the sexism of the Black Power 510 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: movement and ended up breaking off to form their own 511 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: group called the Kombahi River Collective in nineteen seventy five, 512 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: and the collective statement they wrote in nineteen seventy seven 513 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of sums up all of these things, all of 514 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: these oversights. You know, still, after all of these layers 515 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: of you know, groups, breaking off of groups, breaking off 516 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: of groups, finally you know they are able to have 517 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: a space where they're specific needs and concerns are valued. 518 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: And in their collective statement they specify how committed they 519 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: are to struggling against oppression, including racial, sexual, heterosexual, and 520 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: class oppression, and They write that we see as our 521 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: particular task the development of integrated analysis and practice based 522 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: upon the fact that the major systems of oppression are interlocking. 523 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: The synthesis of these oppressions creates the conditions of our lives. 524 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: You just can't separate these things from each other, which 525 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: is what people are still arguing in terms of uh 526 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: intersexual feminism today. These things do not exist in a 527 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: vacuum apart from each other. And it might sound like 528 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: the answer to all of this is, well, burn it 529 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: down feminists and less these lesbian feminists got it wrong 530 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: and radical feminism was horribly exclusive, so everything is terrible 531 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: about it. No, I don't think that that's the case 532 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: at all. A lot of us was laying the foundation 533 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: for feminist theory and when in studies and what would 534 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: eventually become queer theory, challenging a lot of and examining 535 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: in a productive kind of way things that people like 536 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: Adrian Rich you know, we're writing about um and just 537 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: pushing pushing it forward more and more. And UM, I 538 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: think I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting that 539 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: fringes exists on any kind of spectrum. And I think 540 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: that you know, we can learn things from them as well. Yeah, 541 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we can learn things from the fringes just 542 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: as we can learn things from the mainstream. As long 543 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: as there are people like Susan b. Anthony or Betty 544 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: for Dan who in their individual waves of feminism did 545 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: a great deal to help people but also consciously excluded 546 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: many others. Um, I think we can just keep in 547 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: mind that these movements will always have fringes, people who 548 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: are willing to raise their hand and speak up and 549 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: say I don't see the world like that. I have 550 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: a voice to in this. Yeah, I mean, and it's 551 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: also important, I think, for us to know where we've 552 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 1: come from in order for us to better see where 553 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: we are and where we can go. It's just learning 554 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: from learning from the past about you know, then the 555 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: deuce and don'ts what worked and what didn't. Being being 556 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: afraid to acknowledge it too, I think is you know 557 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 1: doesn't do us any good either, So looking at it today, Yeah, 558 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate that second wave feminism wasn't perfect. Wouldn't that 559 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: have been great if somehow standing right there in the 560 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: six season seventies with everything going on in culture where 561 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: it was if you know, one woman. We want to 562 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: put it all on the shoulders of like a group 563 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: of women of like you know, Betty for Dan or 564 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: Glorious dynam Arita may Brown or whoever, and say that 565 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: one of them somehow had perfect vision through all of that. 566 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: Would we have a podcast or wouldn't be the same? 567 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: I don't know that we would need one. I mean, 568 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: like who that's the question. It's like, would that have 569 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: even been possible to see through all that? There were 570 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,439 Speaker 1: a number of women who were doing that, who were 571 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: being as inclusive as possible. Um, But I think it's 572 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: also you know too, if you were to talk to 573 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: lesbian separatists who are living back then today, they will 574 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: probably say, well, what other choice did we have? And 575 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: that's something to consider as well. So I am really 576 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: curious to hear listeners responses to this episode because it's 577 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: a little bit different from what we normally do. We 578 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: haven't taken a deeper dive just into a discreet chapter 579 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: in feminist history and quite a long time. So did 580 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: it leave you with any particular impression or does it 581 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: inform today's feminism a little bit more? For you? Caroline? Well, 582 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean it just made me think about what happens 583 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: when groups of people are essentially forced out of a 584 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: movement and what can come from that, And yes, the 585 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: result can be radical, but I think really fascinating things 586 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: can come out of the work that excluded groups do, 587 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: and that can really trickle down and inform future movements 588 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: and future activists, because it's not as if the conversations 589 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: that radical lesbians and the lavender menace we're having in 590 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, It's not as if those conversations 591 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: have gone away, oh exactly, yeah, And which is why 592 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: I think it's so important for us to understand this, 593 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: and for me, I was especially curious to learn more 594 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: about this concept of radical feminism, specifically happening in the 595 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, because being radical and being radical feminist is 596 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: still a go to insult today. I mean, these same 597 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: kinds of stereotypes and assumptions that Betty Rittan, you know, 598 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: was really trying to navigate now around in terms of 599 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: making you lesbian who hates men and never wants to 600 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: shave her legs, those things are still so alive and well. 601 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: And I noticed, especially on stuff I've Never Told you 602 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: YouTube channel, that the insults that I get if I 603 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: talk about feminism, are usually you're just you're you're radical feminists. 604 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: You're just one of those radical feminists. Or the compliment 605 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: in quotes that I get from people like that is, oh, 606 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: you're not like one of those radical feminists. But what 607 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: does it really mean? What do those people really know 608 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: what they're talking about? And when I respond to I 609 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: really know what I'm talking about? Because I don't, I 610 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: think the answer has been no. You know, I think 611 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 1: that radical feminism doesn't mean what a lot of people 612 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: think it means. Well, it seems like when people are 613 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: commenting on the YouTube videos, you're radical if you talk 614 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: or exists in the world as a woman outside of 615 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: the home, or even if you're in the home. Um 616 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: and so, no, I don't think that a lot of 617 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: people have this historical context in their back pocket about 618 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: women who actually were like no to heck with all 619 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: of this. Well, by that definition, the lazy, incorrect definition 620 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: of radical feminism is that it equals hating men, that 621 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: it equals mis andry, which that is not what radical 622 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: feminism was. Radical feminism promoted gender equality, but was and 623 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: is committed to, you know, dismantling these entire roles that 624 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: were set up as well. And this might be a 625 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: radical concept, but I think that that can coexist with 626 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: not hating men. I don't think that they're mutually exclusive. 627 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 1: But is there that ven diagram where we get into 628 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, the not ironic mis anddrist space. Yeah, yeah, 629 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: it's possible. It is possible. Well, now get again, listeners. 630 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: We want to hear from you all of your thoughts 631 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: about the lavender menace and lesbian feminism and intersectionality and 632 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: where we've come from in the progress that still needs 633 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: to be made. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 634 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us 635 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: at mom stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've 636 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 637 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Lena in response to 638 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: our Asian Fetish episode. She says, I was thrilled to 639 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: see that you recorded a podcast on yellow Fever. It 640 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,879 Speaker 1: was definitely entertaining. But as far as describing it as 641 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,919 Speaker 1: a preference, like preferring blondes or tall women, people don't 642 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: project personality traits and cultural traits onto people because they're 643 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: blonde are tall. Unfortunately, even those men who claim they 644 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: just like our look due to and to get upset 645 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: and we don't fit their stereotypes. As of today, we 646 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: are expected to take I love Asians as a compliment. 647 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: Men get more upset if Asian women reject them because 648 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: they feel somehow entitled, and this includes Asian men at times. 649 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: Among my friends, we've come up with our own ideas 650 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: about the type of man who have yellow fever, and 651 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: none of them are good. To be fair, a lot 652 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: of them have married interracially. Among husbands, the men in 653 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: our lives think of Asians as demure women who all 654 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: fit into one box, as laughable. While they have friends 655 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: who've said awkward things to all of us. The men 656 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: we partner with their embarrassed to repeat the things they've heard. 657 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: So as an Asian women, good guys do exist, They're 658 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: just a lot harder to find among the plethora of 659 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: men who are just creepy. As for Asian men, they 660 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: could use their own podcast. In part because they historically 661 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: took quote unquote female jobs, it was not to be 662 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,280 Speaker 1: a threat to other men. When first immigrating to the US, 663 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: Asian men are systematically stereotype as being weak, feminine, unattractive, 664 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: and many things, they are simply not in most cases. 665 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: So thanks for another great podcast, and thanks for your 666 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: letter and episode suggestion, Lena, And I've got a letter 667 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: here from Elizabeth about the same episode, and Elizabeth wrote 668 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: us the most in depth letter, and Caroline, I honestly 669 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,479 Speaker 1: wish I could sit here and read the whole thing, 670 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: but I cannot, so I'm going to read a couple 671 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: of excerpts. She begins, I was really pleased to hear 672 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: and listen to your podcast about Asian fetishes because it's 673 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: the thing I have to deal with as an Asian woman, 674 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: and it was nice to have a more diverse perspective 675 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: of the trials and tribulations of being female. The Asian 676 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: experience is particularly riddled with a lot of caveats, though, 677 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 1: and I feel like there's still more you could go into, 678 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: but perhaps a future podcast. And she goes on to 679 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 1: talk about the challenges of dating, and she says it 680 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 1: doesn't get much easier quote unquote dating in for Asians either, 681 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: because the dynamics of the Asian American population are different 682 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: and much more diverse than most other minority groups in 683 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: the US. My family is on the older side, and 684 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: it's been in the US since before Chinese exclusion, and 685 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: I found that gives me an interesting experience different from 686 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 1: many of my friends. The funny thing about your podcast 687 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: for me is that the media comments that Anime Wong 688 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: got about how she's Chinese and doesn't have an accent. 689 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,839 Speaker 1: I still get today. Like just a few months ago, 690 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: I got picked up by an uber and it was 691 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: by some guy who was an immigrant himself. But when 692 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: he was speaking with me and I told him I 693 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: was Chinese American, he was literally shocked that I spoke 694 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: perfect English with no accent. That was this year. His 695 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: reasoning was that he picks up people from Korea Town 696 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: and from East l A who are Asian and maybe 697 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: second generation American, and they still have accents, so he 698 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,760 Speaker 1: literally didn't think someone like me existed. That's kind of whatever. 699 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: But I explained to him that my family has been 700 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: in the country for over a century, so we're all 701 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,959 Speaker 1: acclimated to being American and speaking English. And then later 702 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: on she goes on to talk about how all of 703 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: this illustrates a much bigger problem about growing up Asian American. 704 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 1: I don't think it's intentional on your part or even 705 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: on the part of anyone else trying to stand up 706 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: for Asians or promote Asian content. But one of the 707 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: really difficult things is getting people to understand the Asian 708 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: American interests and issues are different from Asian issues in 709 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: East Asia. That sounds really simple when I stated that way, 710 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: but in practice it's very hard. For instance, MTV and 711 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: other media companies aim a lot of their content for 712 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: Asians by using Asian bands, musicians, anime, movies, etcetera. At 713 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: Asian Americans and think that counts as content for us. 714 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: In some ways, it does, but no one pays attention 715 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 1: to Asian American bands or comedians or actors as much. 716 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,280 Speaker 1: A lot of those same programs that work on making 717 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: the content don't go looking for the Asian American artists 718 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: growing up in San Francisco or l A. Instead of 719 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: looking locally in America, they go straight to Asia. Asians 720 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: from Asia don't speak to all of our issues as 721 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: Asian Americans. We do have an interest in that content. 722 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: That content isn't expressive of the spectrum of our entire 723 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: experiences Asian Americans. The where you really from questions universally 724 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: pissed all of us off. But also assuming that we 725 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: all have the same experience and like the same things. 726 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: Is also pretty annoying too, because it has a lot 727 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: to do with perspective, which is individual to every family 728 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: slash influx group that came in. So Elizabeth, thank you 729 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,320 Speaker 1: so much for your insights. We've received so many letters 730 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: to about that episode and appreciate them um so much. 731 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: We always love your letters, mom stuff at house. Stuff 732 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 1: works dot Com is where you can send them and 733 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: thri links all of our social media as well as 734 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with this one 735 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: with links to our sources so you can learn more 736 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: about the Lavender Menace. Head on over to stuff Mom 737 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for moral this and thousands 738 00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: of other topics. Doesn't have stuff works dot com