Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast
Speaker 1: that reimagined citizen as a verb, not a legal status.
Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can
Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing
Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than
Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen.
Speaker 1: During this season, we've talked to some of the true
Speaker 1: tech o g s who are out here trying to
Speaker 1: promote the narrative that tech can help US citizen. But
Speaker 1: for this final episode, we really wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: someone who was coming at tech from a completely different perspective, honestly,
Speaker 1: almost a different world. We were close with R. G.
Speaker 1: Tongue trust me like I like you thought she was
Speaker 1: from a different planet, but I've confirmed that the Digital
Speaker 1: Minister of Taiwan does indeed live here on Earth with us.
Speaker 1: In a world that already leaves so many behind. We
Speaker 1: wanted to focus on those who are intentionally kept out
Speaker 1: of the technological loop, because if I learned anything from
Speaker 1: my conversation with Crystal, it's that rewiring systems to benefit
Speaker 1: the many, not the few, well that can still leave
Speaker 1: out the few. And we can't citizen until everyone can citizen.
Speaker 1: And that brings me to our first guest of this
Speaker 1: final episode. I met him back in when I got
Speaker 1: invited to Detroit by none other than the M I T.
Speaker 1: Media left. They were collaborating with folks in the city
Speaker 1: on some kind of design workshop to help with the
Speaker 1: city's renewal, and I didn't have a lot of history
Speaker 1: with Detroit. In fact, I had no history with Detroit.
Speaker 1: So I show up to this gathering maybe it's twenty pool,
Speaker 1: and it's different types of people. There's techie people who
Speaker 1: have clearly been doing tech a long time, there's designing people,
Speaker 1: there's entrepreneurs, and there's detroit people who clearly lived in
Speaker 1: Detroit a long time. And this eclectic mix of folks
Speaker 1: was broken out into groups to help solve some problems.
Speaker 1: Even in that mix of people, even with all that diversity,
Speaker 1: I just laid out one dude stood out. He had dreadlocks,
Speaker 1: he had swag, he had a presence that was really undeniable,
Speaker 1: and that dude was shock a single what's up, bro,
Speaker 1: what's going on? Man? Super excited to see where we
Speaker 1: got going today? Me too. I love that the way
Speaker 1: we hang out is on the podcast This is Good.
Speaker 1: This is Good. I want to start with you introducing
Speaker 1: yourself to people out there who might not know much
Speaker 1: about you. Well, first of all, I just think so
Speaker 1: much for having me on on. My name is Shaka
Speaker 1: san Gore. I am a writer. I am a dad,
Speaker 1: which is like the favorite title I hold. I'm also
Speaker 1: a tech executive at a company called Trip Accidents based
Speaker 1: out a Paula. Also, so my official title is head
Speaker 1: of Diversity, Quality and Inclusiveness. My real title is Director
Speaker 1: of Dopeness, because that's the only thing that I want
Speaker 1: to do is do dope stuff with dope people. I
Speaker 1: love that you. I love the way you introduce yourself
Speaker 1: and this wide variety of titles, and a while ago
Speaker 1: in your life, the idea that you would be a
Speaker 1: tech execut might not have made that list. Just how
Speaker 1: does that feel right now? It's incredible at this point.
Speaker 1: You know, when you think back on my journey, you know,
Speaker 1: a kid growing up in each Troy, growing up in
Speaker 1: the tough household, and to get caught up in that
Speaker 1: culture and experience all the horrors that come with it,
Speaker 1: you know, childhood friend being murder, being robbed, the gunpoint
Speaker 1: being beat nearly to death, three years later being shot,
Speaker 1: and then sixteen months after that shooting and tragically causing
Speaker 1: the man's death and subsequently being sentenced to seventeen and
Speaker 1: forty years in prison. Yeah, tech probably wasn't the thing
Speaker 1: that would come to mind for most people. I served
Speaker 1: a total of nineteen years, seven of those years in
Speaker 1: solitary confinement. And what a lot of people don't know
Speaker 1: about my life as they see it now is that
Speaker 1: a lot of the things really kind of took shape
Speaker 1: and solitary confinement when I begin to write out a
Speaker 1: new way of looking at life and kind of giving
Speaker 1: myself permission to dream big. During my Detroit visit, Shaka's
Speaker 1: role was as an ambassador to Detroit, but not only that,
Speaker 1: he was a reminder that any solution has to involve
Speaker 1: the people closest to the problem, that a city like
Speaker 1: Detroit wasn't just some blank slate, but have people who
Speaker 1: have been living there for decades and generations that needed
Speaker 1: to be included in the process. A year later, Shaka
Speaker 1: and I would meet again, this time as formal directors
Speaker 1: fellows at the m I T Media Lab, a program
Speaker 1: that connected academia to the real world, challenging the notion
Speaker 1: of what it means to be an expert by bringing
Speaker 1: together people from all kinds of backgrounds of talking chess,
Speaker 1: grand masters and movie makers and regenerative gardeners, all to
Speaker 1: address various pressing issues. Shaka has since written six books,
Speaker 1: including a memoir about his time in prison. He's actually
Speaker 1: working on another one right now. In he created the
Speaker 1: Live in Peace mentorship program and has become a leading
Speaker 1: voice in criminal justice reform. Today, he continues to work
Speaker 1: on the ground in Detroit. Shaka's story may seem unique.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's literally been interviewed by Oprah, but his
Speaker 1: experience is something many Americans have faced. And that's what
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today. What is it like
Speaker 1: to be a return citizen and our ever changing digital landscape,
Speaker 1: what happens when we leave an entire population in the dark,
Speaker 1: and how can we better support them so that we
Speaker 1: better support all of us. Today, we've got two incredible
Speaker 1: conversations lined up now back to Shotgun. Because of the
Speaker 1: title of this show is how to Citizen, and we
Speaker 1: we take it as a verb. You're a returned citizen,
Speaker 1: you know you're a member of a community that we
Speaker 1: often banish from our concept of citizenship. So can you
Speaker 1: define what a returning or returned citizen is for some
Speaker 1: of our listeners. You know, when our first came home
Speaker 1: and I heard that word, I was like, Wow, this
Speaker 1: feels great, and I was so full of optimism and hopefulness.
Speaker 1: And what I thought, honestly, what happened is that I
Speaker 1: would come home and basically confess my sins to my
Speaker 1: community and say, you know, I really want to get
Speaker 1: a job, that my dream as a writer. And what
Speaker 1: I didn't know is that there were so many barriers
Speaker 1: to re entry. You know, I didn't know that people
Speaker 1: would hold you hostage to something that had happened nearly
Speaker 1: two decades ago and say that you're unworthy of employment.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that people would rule you out as
Speaker 1: being eligible to rent a house or rent an apartment.
Speaker 1: And it was not only disappointing, it was devastating because
Speaker 1: I really wanted to become part of a contributing community.
Speaker 1: So I have that taken away almost immediately, and to
Speaker 1: run into all these barriers like out of the gate,
Speaker 1: it really made me think differently about citizenship, and even
Speaker 1: to this day, I mean, you know, I've been on
Speaker 1: the eleven years, and there's things that come up that
Speaker 1: would shock most people when they think about where I'm
Speaker 1: at this point in my life and the things that
Speaker 1: I still have to grapple with. But after a while,
Speaker 1: you get tired, you know, and it wears you down,
Speaker 1: and you're constantly having to explain to your child, we
Speaker 1: gotta go around this corner, up this block, down this alley,
Speaker 1: jump over this fence to get the basic things that
Speaker 1: comes with being a citizen. And despite that, I still
Speaker 1: believe that, you know, my my role in American society
Speaker 1: is one of contributing in a meaningful way to make
Speaker 1: the world that we live in better. And it's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I mentor and work with kids and
Speaker 1: schools um throughout the country. I can't imagine how much
Speaker 1: catch up you had to play just with technology in
Speaker 1: terms of how long you were incarcerated. So tell me
Speaker 1: how long were you incarcerated and what was your technology
Speaker 1: relationship during that part of your life. Yeah, So, you know,
Speaker 1: I laughed when I think about technology in prison, because
Speaker 1: it basically did not exist when I went to prison.
Speaker 1: You know, our cell phones was like those big cinder
Speaker 1: blocks so I went in in n and so I
Speaker 1: came home June twenty two, two thousand ten, one day
Speaker 1: after my birthday. So it's two decades of just innovation
Speaker 1: and things had took place while I was inside. You know,
Speaker 1: when I came home, everything was new, I mean everything,
Speaker 1: you know, just an email, Like I had never heard
Speaker 1: of an email, Like, what is this thing that they're
Speaker 1: talking about? What you need for everything? You need to
Speaker 1: put in a job application, you know, a resume. I
Speaker 1: was so ignorant to technology that I used to get
Speaker 1: into a consistent big ring situation with my then girlfriend
Speaker 1: at the time because I used to think a word
Speaker 1: document was the Internet. So every time I had to
Speaker 1: save something, I would ask her was it okay? Because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to give the computer of virus. It's
Speaker 1: kind of funny now when you think about it, but
Speaker 1: it was a real pain point because I don't think
Speaker 1: that she quite understood the learning curve that it was
Speaker 1: literally the equipment of Fred Flintstone walking into an episode
Speaker 1: of The Jetsons, because that's what prison was. It was
Speaker 1: his cave like barbaric environment, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I'm in the future where people can talk through screens.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I'm remembering when we first met back in
Speaker 1: in Detroit. The M I. T. Media Lab had this
Speaker 1: mission to like help Detroit out. But before my visit,
Speaker 1: an earlier group had come to the city and you
Speaker 1: played a key role in vamp on the program, right,
Speaker 1: So tell me what happened on that trip before you
Speaker 1: and I met, because I'm pretty sure that my visit
Speaker 1: was like a lot different than the lab's original plan
Speaker 1: and those small part thanks to you. What happened is
Speaker 1: I was invited to this event for my work that
Speaker 1: I was doing in Detroit around literature and mentoring young people,
Speaker 1: and they had a group of people in the room
Speaker 1: that didn't quite look like the Detroitors that I knew.
Speaker 1: These were people who were transplanted Detroitors. They were just
Speaker 1: moving in the real estate costs were low, and they
Speaker 1: were kind of reimagining what the city could look like.
Speaker 1: And so what they were telling the director then at
Speaker 1: the time was that, you know, Detroit was a blank
Speaker 1: slate and that they can pretty much do anything that
Speaker 1: they wanted to. And I took offense to that, you know,
Speaker 1: because I thought about my parents, who have been in
Speaker 1: Detroite ever since they were born. I thought about my aunts,
Speaker 1: my uncle's, my neighbors, my friends, people who had never
Speaker 1: left the city, and what the city meant to them,
Speaker 1: and so I basically stood up. I just said to them,
Speaker 1: I said, you know, this isn't the real Detroit, and
Speaker 1: if you won't experience the reality trade, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: take you on a tour. And I took them all
Speaker 1: throughout the city and every sexy you can imagine. I
Speaker 1: took them to the areas that had some of the
Speaker 1: toughest struggles, but also took them to some areas where
Speaker 1: it was prominent people who had lived there all their
Speaker 1: lives and contribute greatly to the city. You know. I
Speaker 1: took them to urban farms, and I took them to
Speaker 1: Grandma's backyard gardens because I wanted them to see that
Speaker 1: urban farming wasn't a new thing. And from that experience
Speaker 1: was born this idea that they were bringing together people
Speaker 1: from all walks of life and come and work in
Speaker 1: collaboration with the people in Detroit to figure out if
Speaker 1: there was something we can build unique to the city's experience.
Speaker 1: And so that's how you and I ended up meeting,
Speaker 1: Like you less such an impression, bro, and you were
Speaker 1: an ambassador to the city. For me, I leaned on
Speaker 1: that a lot, and I remember valuing the grounded perspective
Speaker 1: you just shared, and I was so excited a year
Speaker 1: later when we were reunited in Boston as director as
Speaker 1: fellows at the M I T Media Lab. So talk
Speaker 1: to me a little bit about your experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know what it was like for me, but why
Speaker 1: did you participate? What was it like for you. I've
Speaker 1: never shared this with you, but I remember a day
Speaker 1: of us sitting at the table with some of the
Speaker 1: fellows and we were we were in in in my
Speaker 1: T Media lab, and I was just trembling inside because
Speaker 1: I felt so out of place. Um, you know, in
Speaker 1: my mind you all were just like intellectual titans and
Speaker 1: creatives and all these things. And I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm just you know, short of two years removed
Speaker 1: from prison and I didn't quite think I fit in.
Speaker 1: And I remember the first day going into the lab.
Speaker 1: It was one of those moments where I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: like the future is like right here in this one space.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing these bionic legs and these robots and
Speaker 1: I was just like, this is this is just such,
Speaker 1: it's so bizarre. But I was so curious to lean
Speaker 1: in and learn even more. And then I started working
Speaker 1: with people there and I was like, you know, innovation
Speaker 1: takes place everywhere. I've been innovating my whole life. You know,
Speaker 1: if you grow up in the hood and you have
Speaker 1: to make the best of the twols at your disposal,
Speaker 1: to improve the quality of life is something that you
Speaker 1: that never leaves you. And so when I got to
Speaker 1: the lab, I was like, man, we was doing this
Speaker 1: with no resources in the joint. I think I'm onto
Speaker 1: something right here. And so that's when I begin to
Speaker 1: get more comfortable with it. But initially I was really
Speaker 1: intimidated by being there. And I'll tell you a quick
Speaker 1: story if we have time. When I was at Mr
Speaker 1: T Media Lab. One of the ways that I figured
Speaker 1: out that I fit in was when I did a
Speaker 1: prison hackathon and I came up with these five design challenges.
Speaker 1: You know how to make a tattoo gun out of
Speaker 1: a tape player motor, good child string in a in
Speaker 1: an ink, and you know how to make a stinger,
Speaker 1: which is how we heated up our award extensive cord
Speaker 1: of nail clippers, And how to make a lighter out
Speaker 1: of batteries. What I thought what happened was that these
Speaker 1: brilliant students would solve them and they couldn't off none
Speaker 1: of these in three hours. And it made me think
Speaker 1: about the men and women inside who saw these things
Speaker 1: in thirty seconds to survive and what would happen if
Speaker 1: they had unfettered access to the resources that create technology.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. How do you think the experience of incarceration
Speaker 1: would change if there were more access to technology inside
Speaker 1: of prisons. I think there would be a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of changes. I think that people on an
Speaker 1: inside would really be able to imagine a life for
Speaker 1: themselves beyond being in the prison cell. I met some
Speaker 1: of the most innovative people in prison, and there's an
Speaker 1: organization that I love that I just have, you know,
Speaker 1: great deal of respect for a car the last mile
Speaker 1: and they're actually showing what would happen. There's men and
Speaker 1: women inside of prisons right now as part of this
Speaker 1: program that are actually building. Companies actually went to one
Speaker 1: of their demo days of Saint Quentin. Every and of
Speaker 1: those from an app that helps find missing children to
Speaker 1: one that lets parents track their kids grades g P
Speaker 1: and how about a voice coded trigger lock that can
Speaker 1: be traced by police if you've got to stolen. There's
Speaker 1: not a problem like that on the market. The program
Speaker 1: is and walking around and seeing what these men were creating,
Speaker 1: and how they were just so enthusiastic and hopeful and
Speaker 1: full of light. And I was just like, man, I
Speaker 1: wish I had that experience on the way out of prison.
Speaker 1: I could have accelerated some things. But you know, to
Speaker 1: see it happening at this level now, to see people
Speaker 1: more open to it, it's really inspiring to me. So
Speaker 1: that's what I think what happened is more creativity, more innovation,
Speaker 1: and more companies built built by system impacted people. Shaka
Speaker 1: sing Gore, Director of Dopeness, a well earned title, my friend,
Speaker 1: my brother, thank you. In a lot of ways, Shaka's
Speaker 1: story is exceptional. A man, against all odds, has been
Speaker 1: able to repent for his crimes, rise to the top
Speaker 1: of his field, and give back to his community in
Speaker 1: a big way. It's the type of story our society loves, inspirational,
Speaker 1: feel good, comforting. If taken out of context, it's almost
Speaker 1: too comforting because Shaka shouldn't be the exception, and he
Speaker 1: will be the first one to tell you that there
Speaker 1: are more than two million people incarcerated in the United
Speaker 1: States today. In fact, the US is consistently ranked as
Speaker 1: the country with the highest incarceration rate per capita in
Speaker 1: the whole world. Given those numbers, how many Shakas are
Speaker 1: imprisoned today? People who have been cast aside despite their potential,
Speaker 1: those whose perspectives can be a real asset to our society,
Speaker 1: but we'll never get the chance. So please don't hold
Speaker 1: Shaka as an example that the system is working because
Speaker 1: someone like him became a tech executive. Instead, let Shaka
Speaker 1: be a reminder to us, all of the potential innovators
Speaker 1: who are in prison today, that for every one of
Speaker 1: them who makes it, there are hundreds more who don't
Speaker 1: get the chance. For mean, what's really heartbreaking is I
Speaker 1: never heard one person say I can't wait to leave
Speaker 1: prison to go back to prison, not one, And yet
Speaker 1: about the people who leave prison go back And it's
Speaker 1: because we don't allow them to connect back to society
Speaker 1: in a meaningful way and have that human capital restored.
Speaker 1: So what does it take to change the system so
Speaker 1: that stories like Chaka's become the norm? After the break?
Speaker 1: My conversation with Teresa Hodge, a return citizen who has
Speaker 1: dedicated her life to answering that question. Teresa, what's up? Welcome,
Speaker 1: thank you, It's so wonderful to be here with you today.
Speaker 1: Teresa Hodge is the co founder and CEO of Mission Launch,
Speaker 1: an organization in the DC area that's dedicated to supporting
Speaker 1: individuals with the rest records and families impacted by mass
Speaker 1: incarceration now. Mission Launch does this through an array of programs,
Speaker 1: including financial literacy workshops, a business accelerator for returned citizens,
Speaker 1: and even hackathons with the mission to improve post prison
Speaker 1: re entry. In addition, Mission Launch and Teresa have created
Speaker 1: Our three Score. This is an alternative to the background
Speaker 1: check that doesn't simply ask do you have a criminal
Speaker 1: record and ended that because we all know people are
Speaker 1: much more dynamic than a simple yes no answer. Instead,
Speaker 1: our three score is a more nuanced algorithm that asks
Speaker 1: a series of questions that are better able to determine
Speaker 1: how someone might perform as an employee, a residence, a borrower,
Speaker 1: or something else. Think of it as a credit score
Speaker 1: that actually makes sense. Wouldn't that be nice? Their current
Speaker 1: initiative bank on a hundred million brings together both these efforts.
Speaker 1: This campaign helps companies in schools rework their hiring, lending,
Speaker 1: and admissions practices so they no longer exclude folks simply
Speaker 1: for having criminal records, because that would exclude about a
Speaker 1: hundred million people. Basically, look Teresa's using tech and activism
Speaker 1: and her lived experience to improve the lives of millions
Speaker 1: of Americans. Can you tell me how the idea of
Speaker 1: Mission Launch came about? What was the moment? So the
Speaker 1: moment for Mission Launch came when I was sitting in prison.
Speaker 1: I went to prison in two thousand and seven and
Speaker 1: began serving an eighty seven month federal prison sentence. That
Speaker 1: seven years, three months felt like a lifetime sentence quite
Speaker 1: frankly when it was given to me. The one thing
Speaker 1: I knew was in order to be relevant, I had
Speaker 1: to do something that concerned the prison, because after spending
Speaker 1: those many years in prison, the only thing that I
Speaker 1: would really know the most about was going to be prison.
Speaker 1: But while I sat in prison and I listened to
Speaker 1: the stories of the women who I was incarcerated with,
Speaker 1: and I watched even more so a lot of women
Speaker 1: go to prison and come back, I just really began
Speaker 1: studying and trying to understand why were people coming back
Speaker 1: Because what I knew was prison life was no way
Speaker 1: of living, and people were coming back. There was a
Speaker 1: strong disconnect. Yeah, you've talked about how technology is essential
Speaker 1: and re entry for someone who's going to post incarceration.
Speaker 1: What was the tech landscape like as you remember it
Speaker 1: before you were in carcerated back in oh seven. So
Speaker 1: when I went to prison, just to kind of help
Speaker 1: you understand where technology was, Facebook was what young people
Speaker 1: were using, my Space was around. And while I was
Speaker 1: in prison, a few days afterwards, Steve Jobs announced the
Speaker 1: first iPhone. There is a major breakthrough headed to American consumers.
Speaker 1: It's the iPhone, an iPod, a cell phone in a
Speaker 1: portable internet all in a little lightweight package. Today Apple
Speaker 1: is going to reinvent the phone. And while I was
Speaker 1: in prison, people start tweeting and I couldn't understand what
Speaker 1: do you mean people are tweeting? What do you mean
Speaker 1: they're putting in an atmosphere? But who's in the atmosphere?
Speaker 1: What's going on? And what you understand is technology is
Speaker 1: a context sport. And so for the men and women
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated, we have disconnected them. I can't even
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to imagine I stud in line
Speaker 1: for that first iPhone and the idea that I would
Speaker 1: be confined during that time and not even fully understand
Speaker 1: that that was happening. That's jarring, you know, like that
Speaker 1: someone changed the official language of your society and you
Speaker 1: come back in you don't quite speaking. Am I capturing
Speaker 1: some of what that must have felt like for you.
Speaker 1: There were a few things that I missed the most.
Speaker 1: Technology was one. Popcorn was another. I'll show you. I
Speaker 1: need to show you how shallow I am, and that
Speaker 1: you know, and my family and I really missed. But
Speaker 1: it was the inability to use technology. And I am
Speaker 1: a person who wasn't early adopted to technology. You know.
Speaker 1: I really emphasized to a lot of young people before
Speaker 1: incarceration the importance of technology and the digital divide. I
Speaker 1: was teaching about it. So to find myself on the
Speaker 1: other side of the divide, it was just heart wrenching.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. Take me to the day you're released. What
Speaker 1: do you remember about that day? I was released from
Speaker 1: prison August three, two thousand and eleven, and so I
Speaker 1: remember that day like it was yesterday, And what what
Speaker 1: did my daughter bring me an iPhone? And ya, I
Speaker 1: had been talking about technology. Did she bring you popcorn?
Speaker 1: That's the real question, you know, she did not bring
Speaker 1: me popcorn. She did not bring me popcorn. All right,
Speaker 1: So your daughter shows up, she brings you an iPhone? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Actually it was my daughter, my mother, one of my sisters,
Speaker 1: a niece, and one of my niece's girlfriends. And so
Speaker 1: it was two carfuls of women who took me to
Speaker 1: prison and a car fool that brought me back. I
Speaker 1: am just one of the fortunate few that take family
Speaker 1: with them and come back to family. So one just
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that privilege. But it was an iPhone.
Speaker 1: But I'll be honest with you, I was so overwhelmed
Speaker 1: because I did not have that level of connection to
Speaker 1: technology and just the phone ringing and trying to text
Speaker 1: and people calling and pictures popping up, and I felt
Speaker 1: some anxiety. And I didn't expect that I was in
Speaker 1: prison for five years, ten months away from technology, so
Speaker 1: all of those generations of technology, you know, that had
Speaker 1: taken place. Um. But I when I first came home,
Speaker 1: my daughter and I had made a commitment that we
Speaker 1: were going to work together. And while I was in prison,
Speaker 1: you know, we had a conversation one day while she
Speaker 1: was visiting, and I had just read an article that
Speaker 1: said seven out of ten children who have an incarcerated
Speaker 1: parents are likely to go to prison. Seven out of ten,
Speaker 1: seven out of ten children. So it speaks to how
Speaker 1: we are locking families into this cycle. And as a mom,
Speaker 1: I was heartbroken. My daughter graduated from college before I
Speaker 1: went to prison, and so we would sit and visit
Speaker 1: and have conversations, and we were able to maintain our relationship.
Speaker 1: But there were children that day playing outside who were
Speaker 1: visiting their aunts and grandmas and mothers and sisters. And
Speaker 1: I said to her, count ten children, and you tell
Speaker 1: me which three deserves not to go to prison. At
Speaker 1: that moment, our partnership was formed. I already knew what
Speaker 1: I was going to do, but she decided that she
Speaker 1: was going to bring her skill sets to the table.
Speaker 1: And from there we just started entering business plan competitions,
Speaker 1: with me providing information and insights from the inside and
Speaker 1: her applying to competitions on the outside. Mm hmm, I'm
Speaker 1: stuck on the seven out of ten, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's by design. You know, when we look
Speaker 1: at racial wealth gap and all of these things, you
Speaker 1: have to look at prison. It's unfortunate, but so many
Speaker 1: people who go to prison, they come from under resource
Speaker 1: communities and it's just the thing that happens. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back. Tell me what human capital means to you.
Speaker 1: I've seen you use that language and a lot of
Speaker 1: other conversations and describing some of your work. Well, I
Speaker 1: feel like for me that as humans, we all have
Speaker 1: been given God given talent, we have strengths. It's the
Speaker 1: total sum of who you are, what you're able to do,
Speaker 1: how you see life in the world, and it's your
Speaker 1: ability to spend that in how you work, you live
Speaker 1: and play. And so for me, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: on a mission to help restore that human capital that's
Speaker 1: lost when people are in prison and help people reconnect
Speaker 1: back to society in a meaningful way. For me, what's
Speaker 1: really heartbreaking is I never heard one person say I
Speaker 1: can't wait to leave prison to go back to prison,
Speaker 1: not one, And yet about the people who leave prison
Speaker 1: go back, and it's because we don't allow them to
Speaker 1: connect back to society in a meaningful way and have
Speaker 1: that human capital restored. Yeah, when you use the word restore,
Speaker 1: that's a powerful term to use because it's there. It's
Speaker 1: like ready for investment, right as ready for the return
Speaker 1: on that investment, and you sort of putting something back
Speaker 1: where it belongs, as opposed to we got to go
Speaker 1: find some human capital and go figure this thing out.
Speaker 1: It's like it's been figured. We just got to undo
Speaker 1: the harm that took it away from from all of
Speaker 1: us collectively. What are some of the things high on
Speaker 1: the list that you consider missing areas blind spots, whether
Speaker 1: on your side or on society side. In terms of
Speaker 1: how we interact with people on their return, well, for me,
Speaker 1: I think that language matters. We don't have a good
Speaker 1: way of talking about people who go to prison and
Speaker 1: those same people who come back from prison, and so
Speaker 1: we use words that are so offensive, like expelling x con.
Speaker 1: We labeled them as criminals who wants to hire our criminal,
Speaker 1: who wants a criminal to move into their apartment? Right,
Speaker 1: No one even the language of returning citizen. When does
Speaker 1: a person get to return? When is the punishment over?
Speaker 1: And when is that just another person that is occupying
Speaker 1: this world with us? And so for me, I think
Speaker 1: that we have to begin to humanize or rehumanize humans.
Speaker 1: We've turned over our prison system to our government. It
Speaker 1: is an out of sight, out of mind, and we
Speaker 1: have entrusted for far too long that they were doing
Speaker 1: what was best on our behalf, and that has not
Speaker 1: been the case. Today. One in three Americans having arrest
Speaker 1: are conviction record. This is something we have to fix.
Speaker 1: By the year twenty thirty one million Americans while having
Speaker 1: arrest or conviction record. That's one into working age adults.
Speaker 1: This is not the problem of the seventy plus million people.
Speaker 1: This is all of our problem. And so I love
Speaker 1: your how the citizen, because this is something we all
Speaker 1: have to figure out. We're all stakeholders in this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we are. I remember the first time I visited Rikers Island.
Speaker 1: I had been living in New York for a decade
Speaker 1: and I've only seen it from the planes landing at LaGuardia,
Speaker 1: which until I visited Rikers, I thought LaGuardia was the
Speaker 1: worst place in New York City. And then I saw
Speaker 1: what we did to people who couldn't afford bail. I
Speaker 1: think what offended me most was I've been paying for
Speaker 1: this the whole time, and I didn't know I was
Speaker 1: investing in something and had no idea until I spent
Speaker 1: just one day was enough because we've got to stop this.
Speaker 1: The way you put it, when do people return? What's
Speaker 1: the language you choose to use, and how do you
Speaker 1: encourage us to refer to this population we've been talking about.
Speaker 1: It's clearly not X felling an X con and maybe
Speaker 1: returning citizens isn't the j out. So what do you suggest? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we I feel like it is time for us to evolved.
Speaker 1: I don't have the language, but I use human first
Speaker 1: language always, and so what you always hear me say
Speaker 1: is people with arrest or conviction records, because we are
Speaker 1: people first, you know, And when in doubt, it's time
Speaker 1: for us to learn each other's names. You know, that's
Speaker 1: a way to hold up. I'm all for humanization, but
Speaker 1: that's a step too far. Everybody's seven million people's name.
Speaker 1: I could take five years to say a sentence that's
Speaker 1: that's amazing. And thank you for that because I heard
Speaker 1: you using it, and I was like, I think this
Speaker 1: is a conscious choice, So I will try to learn
Speaker 1: by that example. And I know you've been championing ban
Speaker 1: the box initiatives. Can you explain what that means. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: there are laws on in our government that make it
Speaker 1: where employers cannot discriminate against people when they are trying
Speaker 1: to get employment. You know, one of the economic pillars
Speaker 1: of our society is we want every able body to
Speaker 1: be able to work well. When people have an arrest,
Speaker 1: are conviction record, employers are able to discriminate. It's a
Speaker 1: silent discrimination. I used to run an HR department years ago,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until I came home from prison that
Speaker 1: I thought, oh my god, I was trained to discriminate.
Speaker 1: I was told look for the best candidate, find reasons
Speaker 1: to streamline hundred and fifty stack of resumes, And the
Speaker 1: truth is we would come up with our own matrix internally.
Speaker 1: So there are internal policies that are often not written,
Speaker 1: but quite frankly, it's just culture, and that is we
Speaker 1: do not hire folks with records. So banning the box
Speaker 1: means that you cannot put on an application the box
Speaker 1: that says have you ever been convicted of a crime,
Speaker 1: So in one sense we are just delaying the discrimination.
Speaker 1: But still there's an opportunity for me to have a
Speaker 1: conversation and maybe a human connection. When you use numbers
Speaker 1: like one in three Americans currently has an arrest or
Speaker 1: conviction record and by one out of two working age
Speaker 1: adults will will meet that same condition. Then it really
Speaker 1: is a wee problem, absolutely, and the discrimination it's vast.
Speaker 1: You know, we get to you've been out for several
Speaker 1: years and you come up with another way a score, uh,
Speaker 1: different kind of credit score, different algorithm. What is our
Speaker 1: three score technologies? Our three score is a contextualized background
Speaker 1: check for the one in three Americans living with an
Speaker 1: arrest of conviction record. It provides dieting namic data. I
Speaker 1: like to say it's a criminal background check that needs
Speaker 1: a credit score. So when I was helping individuals who
Speaker 1: were entrepreneurs build their business, is one of the things
Speaker 1: I recognize is we could help them grow a business,
Speaker 1: but we couldn't get them access to growth capital because
Speaker 1: of their background check. And a local community bank approached me.
Speaker 1: They were willing to make loans to individuals with arrest
Speaker 1: are conviction records, but they didn't know how to assess them.
Speaker 1: And so the proposition was, hey, Teresa, if you vet
Speaker 1: people for me and if you okay them, will take
Speaker 1: your word. Ah. So they were outsourcing to you yeah,
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, this is interesting, but it's not
Speaker 1: scalable for Teresa to do this on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and what if they missed the payment? Am
Speaker 1: I now the collections department? But I understood the opportunity,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, could I take what Theresa no
Speaker 1: and put it to technology and can I scale that?
Speaker 1: And could I then create something where other people could
Speaker 1: be seen differently. First, you have to understand that a
Speaker 1: criminal background check is a very static document. It only
Speaker 1: tells you if a person has a criminal record. That's
Speaker 1: all that tells you yes or now. It's a buying
Speaker 1: everything yes or no by andary, yes or now. And
Speaker 1: it maybe give you citations. Well, if you don't know
Speaker 1: how to read all these citations, you maybe don't understand
Speaker 1: the difference between something as minimal as jaywalking and something
Speaker 1: that you might be a little bit more you know,
Speaker 1: scared of. You don't understand the time away from crime
Speaker 1: and some of the other factors that might need to
Speaker 1: go in. And so when that banker bought his problem
Speaker 1: to me, our three score was born. And so we
Speaker 1: wanted to create a data rich algorithm that allowed us
Speaker 1: to look at people are dynamic. You know, we are
Speaker 1: not static, So yes, we don't hide the fact that
Speaker 1: a person has a record, but we add alternative data
Speaker 1: that we think is also important for you to know,
Speaker 1: Like what based upon my age, how long I've been
Speaker 1: away from the criminal activity, how long I've been home
Speaker 1: from prison, how active I am in my community. Those
Speaker 1: are all factors that indicate that I am less likely
Speaker 1: to commit a crime than someone who has not committed
Speaker 1: a crime today. And that is evidence based research that
Speaker 1: is already out there. So we brought in all the
Speaker 1: evidence based research that was out there, and then in
Speaker 1: addition to the evidence based research, it's just the nuance
Speaker 1: of people, because when you think of seventy million people
Speaker 1: with an arrest or conviction record, it's not a monolithic
Speaker 1: it's not one person. But yet decision makers when they
Speaker 1: see that a person has a criminal history, their mind
Speaker 1: goes to the worst possible offenses and they make decisions
Speaker 1: that they can't take the risk. And really all they're
Speaker 1: looking for is like, give me a little bit more
Speaker 1: information about this person. And we are a third party
Speaker 1: validator of additional information. We sell contexts, We sell context
Speaker 1: You're doing so much with this, Theresa you're First of all,
Speaker 1: I think you're you're using data to humanize people, and
Speaker 1: so much of our modern experience with data is the opposite.
Speaker 1: It strips us of our humanity. It puts us in
Speaker 1: these little market segments so that we can be auctioned
Speaker 1: off to the highest bidder. And I have I had
Speaker 1: my own strong objections to that. I like seeing an
Speaker 1: example of data being used to restore someone's humanity. I
Speaker 1: also think that in a nation like ours, where we've
Speaker 1: criminalized so much, it's meaningless to have a criminal record.
Speaker 1: If if we're approaching one and two working age people,
Speaker 1: then what's even the point of the background check. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge you because I think what you're
Speaker 1: doing is brilliant and amazing, and it's restoring a lot
Speaker 1: of my hope and faith in the possibilities of what
Speaker 1: we can do with all this tech stuff. I want
Speaker 1: to ask you about one more initiative, which is bank
Speaker 1: on one million. What is that? Why is it needed? Well,
Speaker 1: when you think of the criminal justice system, it's complicated,
Speaker 1: complex and convoluted. And I thought that just helping entrepreneurs
Speaker 1: was enough, but then I was like, oh, I gotta
Speaker 1: create something for people to interpret them and understand. Well,
Speaker 1: now that we've created a tool, now it's like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. Corporations need implementation and understanding and they need programming.
Speaker 1: So Bank on a hundred mill is a platform. And
Speaker 1: I'm I am so done after this. I'm like, I've
Speaker 1: done enough. You know, you just enjoy and us sis
Speaker 1: to retire and enjoy some life after president after all
Speaker 1: of this. But so bank on a hundred million, this
Speaker 1: is an opportunity for us to decide collectively to broader us.
Speaker 1: How are we going to treat our brothers and sisters
Speaker 1: who have an arrest or conviction record. And it's a
Speaker 1: way that you can come on a platform and learn.
Speaker 1: There will be educational information, case studies. We're going to
Speaker 1: provide all of that. If you're a corporation and you
Speaker 1: want to do better, be better, there's a pledge for
Speaker 1: you to take and we offer consulting and we offer
Speaker 1: the tool, and we can help you understand some policies
Speaker 1: and procedures. So for me, I brought my body of
Speaker 1: work together on the Bank on a hundred million platform,
Speaker 1: and I'm inviting the stakeholders in America to come and
Speaker 1: let's solve this problem together and let's put people back
Speaker 1: to work so that they can be productive and help
Speaker 1: grow our country. I think it's possible that the next
Speaker 1: big idea, the next UH solution, the next you know cure,
Speaker 1: could be sitting inside of an American prison and that
Speaker 1: they can come home and be extremely productive. The question
Speaker 1: only is will we let them? Mm hmm. Our major
Speaker 1: theme for this season has been can we find stories
Speaker 1: that show us tech that actually helps us citizen? How
Speaker 1: do you think we should be using tech to help
Speaker 1: the lives of of return to returning citizens rather than
Speaker 1: making it harder. So, for me, our goal is to
Speaker 1: become the gold standard quite frankly, for how we vet
Speaker 1: nessess individuals who have arrest are conviction records. We have
Speaker 1: to stop turning this system over to our government. We
Speaker 1: have to get involved, We have to become active citizens
Speaker 1: around this. You know, if you're not sure how to
Speaker 1: do it again, that's the reason why we're creating this
Speaker 1: platform where you can come and learn. One place you
Speaker 1: can come learn how you can get engaged and you know,
Speaker 1: just help put some of the folks who have served
Speaker 1: their time back to work, restore lives and in that
Speaker 1: cycle of families going to prison. Yeah, that that is
Speaker 1: the wrong kind of family business incarceration. We've been asking
Speaker 1: people and you've already started answering what they would encourage
Speaker 1: our our listeners to do. What would you want someone
Speaker 1: to reflect on or challenge internally on this topic. I
Speaker 1: throw data and statistics around, but if there's one piece
Speaker 1: of data, America has five per cent of the world's
Speaker 1: population and twenty five per cent the world's prisoners. Are
Speaker 1: we that bad? Are the people of the country bad?
Speaker 1: Or our our policies and how we've done this bad?
Speaker 1: And if we do nothing else, just this is a
Speaker 1: time for us to see this issue differently. It costs
Speaker 1: too much, it destroys lives, and it is just time
Speaker 1: for us to see one another. I can assure you
Speaker 1: every time I present people like shopped and gasp at
Speaker 1: the statistics. But afterwards someone comes up and when I
Speaker 1: hear their voice drop, I know what's getting ready to happen.
Speaker 1: They say, my father went to pression, my mother went
Speaker 1: to prison. It's time for this to stop being America's
Speaker 1: dirty little secret. Period. Teresa, Hi, you're a Dovis. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much forgiving for asking yourself that question. And
Speaker 1: answering it every day with what you're doing, and for
Speaker 1: using tech to humanize us and help us see each
Speaker 1: other as people. First, I'm so glad that we've had
Speaker 1: this opportunity to talk to you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I am glad for the invitation and let us have
Speaker 1: brunch together. Yeah, when I'm next in town. I mean
Speaker 1: I live in California. I was so thrilled to talk
Speaker 1: with Teresa because she's doing so much of what we
Speaker 1: talked about on this show. She's using her power to
Speaker 1: benefit us collectively and specifically with tech. She's creating new
Speaker 1: algorithms that actually center justice. She's proof that tech doesn't
Speaker 1: have to rip us apart or dehumanizes, but that we
Speaker 1: can choose to use it to do the opposite. And
Speaker 1: she's wrapping my hometown of d C. So you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of love there. We started this season
Speaker 1: asking where tech went wrong, but we intentionally spent most
Speaker 1: of our time with the people who are fixing it,
Speaker 1: who are building tech to help us citizens. And what
Speaker 1: they're building is so damn cool. But that's not even
Speaker 1: the most inspiring part. It's the people behind the innovation
Speaker 1: that inspires me. For too long we've been living in
Speaker 1: a tech dictatorship, one where a select few get to
Speaker 1: call all the shots. But our guests are rejecting that
Speaker 1: narrative and a fighting to bring humanity back into tech.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't identify as a tech nerd, you've
Speaker 1: got to admit that's add As I thought I was
Speaker 1: making a season about tech, it turns out I was
Speaker 1: making a season about rebels. I've always been broken. They
Speaker 1: will never give me money. So now the gloves have
Speaker 1: totally come up. If you can't bid them, make them obsolete.
Speaker 1: And then at the same time, we have to radically
Speaker 1: reinvent the incentive structure of social media. So nothing big,
Speaker 1: nothing big that I'm a seat at the table isn't
Speaker 1: the same thing as a voice at the table. You know,
Speaker 1: don't push the conversation, take time, take patients, move at
Speaker 1: the speed of trust and care. Before speaking with all
Speaker 1: these incredible people, even I Baritune day, the techno Optimists,
Speaker 1: Thurston will admit I was starting to lose faith that
Speaker 1: we could reclaim tech for the collective. There's so much
Speaker 1: evidence and news and examples that pessimistic point of view.
Speaker 1: But speaking with my big sister at the start of
Speaker 1: this journey. She reminded me of the magic my mother
Speaker 1: instilled in us to be critical, but most of all,
Speaker 1: to never stop imagining what's next. My mother never had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to thrive creatively at work. If she had,
Speaker 1: I know she would have created something spectacular. Seeing all
Speaker 1: these people using tech for beautiful things, it makes me
Speaker 1: feel like a little bit of her is still here.
Speaker 1: And if I accomplished one thing this season, it would
Speaker 1: be the past down my mother's imagination when it came
Speaker 1: to tech. But Linda described her as becoming, you know,
Speaker 1: dealing with whatever the past layers were, but but always
Speaker 1: having the courage to continue to reach toward whatever it
Speaker 1: is that she could see and that she wasn't done,
Speaker 1: she was not ending, she was still living and um
Speaker 1: she was still becoming. Just because tech has been in
Speaker 1: one thing for us doesn't mean it can't become something else,
Speaker 1: something better. Just because we think one way doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we can't become someone better. So the question is what
Speaker 1: are you going to become? And now, for our crowd favorite,
Speaker 1: the part of the show where we put you in
Speaker 1: and give you ways to citizen, it's time for some action,
Speaker 1: all right. For personal reflection. The United States has five
Speaker 1: percent of the world's population and of the world's prison population.
Speaker 1: Now ask yourself the question Teresa wants us all to ask,
Speaker 1: Are we that bad? No? X? Let's get informed about
Speaker 1: who's leaving the spaces we spend time in. I want
Speaker 1: you to take stock of the companies whose products and
Speaker 1: services you use the most, the nonprofits you may be supported.
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at their boards and senior leadership.
Speaker 1: Do those people reflect the experiences of the communities they serve?
Speaker 1: And while you're in a learning mood, check out Shaka's
Speaker 1: ted talk why your worst deeds don't define you. Finally,
Speaker 1: for ways to publicly participate, let's citizen with those who
Speaker 1: have felony convictions the Last Mile. This is an incredibly
Speaker 1: effective organization that prepares incarcerated individuals for successful re entrigued
Speaker 1: and I want you to support their work with your money,
Speaker 1: with your time in terms of volunteering, or better yet,
Speaker 1: hire their graduates. Get your employers to hire their graduates.
Speaker 1: These actions and links are in the show notes on
Speaker 1: your device in front of your face and also on
Speaker 1: our website at how do citizen dot com. Because this
Speaker 1: is the last episode, of season three. Let me also
Speaker 1: say thank you to the team at dust Light Productions.
Speaker 1: Y'all don't even know. This is a really, really, really
Speaker 1: really dope group of people. And I want to thank
Speaker 1: Ali Kilts, who writes for me almost as good as me. Uh,
Speaker 1: my assistant Layla being a who helps you know the
Speaker 1: calendar not be wild. I want to thank Matthew Lai,
Speaker 1: who came in midstream as our apprentice and stepped up
Speaker 1: and produced the heck out of things. I want to
Speaker 1: thank Sam Paulson, who was our apprentice on season two,
Speaker 1: full law producer in season three and delivered some stellar
Speaker 1: guests and great episodes to the mix. Stephanie, our editor
Speaker 1: who produced on season two edited on season three. Stephanie,
Speaker 1: every time I feel like I'm a little lacking in
Speaker 1: the video, I do jumping jacks. That's an inside joke,
Speaker 1: but you understand what I'm saying. To Mika, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: To Mika, our our lead producer, crushing it. Thank you
Speaker 1: for especially your calm in so many storms. Misha and Arwin,
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you. Thank you who helped run us
Speaker 1: Light and have provided valuable notes, guidance, and insight along
Speaker 1: the way. There's another group that's been involved with this season. Uh.
Speaker 1: They're a group called Civics Unplugged, and we actually featured
Speaker 1: them in the very first season of How To Citizen.
Speaker 1: I don't remember the episode number, but go back and
Speaker 1: check them out. They've been really stepping up to help
Speaker 1: us out with the digital If you've been enjoying the
Speaker 1: new How To Citizen Instagram experience, that's due to the
Speaker 1: gen's ears at Civics unplug and we are going to
Speaker 1: collaborate with them even more so. Thank you, especially to
Speaker 1: to Nazi, to Chabou, to Julia uh and to Josh
Speaker 1: over at Civics umplug uh and and last but not
Speaker 1: at least, I said this at the end of season too.
Speaker 1: I'll say it again at the end of this season
Speaker 1: to my wife, my life partner, executive producer, co creator
Speaker 1: of this show with me, Elizabeth, you are the producer
Speaker 1: closest to my heart and you have really helped elevate
Speaker 1: what we're doing here. So to the listeners out there,
Speaker 1: you've heard my voice. There is a whole team of
Speaker 1: people behind it, giving me things to say, helping me
Speaker 1: find people, pushing me to be better, challenging me and
Speaker 1: pushing me to citizen and especially thank you. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening, thank you for engaging, Thank you for citizening.
Speaker 1: This is a team sport. Stay tuned to us at
Speaker 1: how do citizen dot com find us on Instagram? At
Speaker 1: how do citizen tag us in your citizen practice? Hashtag
Speaker 1: it and connect with others doing the same, or don't
Speaker 1: we We don't need you to find us on Zuckerberg property,
Speaker 1: the metaverse or whatever. We need you to engage with
Speaker 1: each other in the world. This thing that we're doing
Speaker 1: as a collective as a people requires belief, requires faith,
Speaker 1: and requires reminders that we can still do good stuff,
Speaker 1: that we're not just subjects in somebody else's kingdom. When
Speaker 1: it comes to technology, where we're spending so much of
Speaker 1: our time, all of our emotions, our money, our family connections,
Speaker 1: our politics, it's all there. It's very important that we
Speaker 1: exercise our power, that we determine how we're going to
Speaker 1: use this to meet our human needs individually and collectively,
Speaker 1: that we use tech to citizen So I will see
Speaker 1: you somewhere in the world, and I hope you will
Speaker 1: see each other as well. Keeps citizen in y'all, keeps
Speaker 1: citis in In In You, How Do? Citizen with Baritone is
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio podcast and dust Light Productions.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Me Barryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart,
Speaker 1: and Misha Yusuf. Our senior producer is Tamika Adams, Our
Speaker 1: producer is Ali Kilts, and our assistant producer is Sam Paulson.
Speaker 1: Stephanie Cohne is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer,
Speaker 1: and Matthew Laie as our apprentice. Additional production help from
Speaker 1: rwin Nicks, original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional original
Speaker 1: music for season three from Andrew Clauson. This episode was
Speaker 1: produced and sound designed by Ali Kilts. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Joel Smith from I Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at
Speaker 1: dust Light Production.